YA Word Counts - Hope Over 60K?

[RainbowDragon]

A few questions about word counts:

I'm reading conflicting information from various sources about exact word-processor counts vs. the 250/page method. Which is really the standard, and why, and which and how many sources back that up, or can/should queries/submissions just include both?

Also, does anyone have a listing of publishers or agents who are open to if not actively seeking YA novels over 60,000 words? I notice in the Children's Writer's and Illustrator's Market that Tor books shows an average from 60-100K, but many others show averages around 40-60K and some show maximums in the same range.

How much of an obstacle is it to first-novel publication if your YA book is in the 60-80K range, and how can a writer sidestep any initial reluctance to get the manuscript read and seriously considered? Presumably, if an editor or agent falls in love with it, length won't stand in the way (though editing suggestions might be an issue if cuts are demanded). But they have to read it first!

Thanks in advance for all your thoughtful responses.

[cuteshoes]

I'd like to know too. My YA WIP is going to fall around 75k before editing, which hopefully will bring it back down to 70k. The protags are 14 year old girls.

[zeprosnepsid]

I think there is no right answer to this question. Opinions and Publishers differ quite widely on the topic.

Check out this thread to see people politely disagree: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12184

I think it's best just to write the best novel you can, although I'd certainly keep it under 80k! And then see what publishers will take a novel of that size.

[Tish Davidson]

However after the success of the Harry Potter series, I think publishers are not as automatically turned off by long books as they may have been in the past.

[Bryan Reardon]

Although I cannot give advice, I can tell you that I wrote my manuscript as adult sci-fi and decided at the last second to market it to YA agents. It was 80,000. So far, no one has told me to shave any off. In fact, the edits I received from my agent this week had me adding not taking away. The one thing I never did, though, was include my wordcount in the query. But I noticed in Ginger Clark's post that it is important to her.

[Lavendar]

Has anyone offered a submission to a publisher without an agent? I don't know if I'm ready for an agent. My YA ms has been submitted and am now waiting for a reply. Does anyone know of any publishers who excepts short stories? The publishers I pull up on the net are just book stores.

[Christine N.]

10-13 is what's called "middle grade". YA is usually 14 or 15-18. Many true YA books are actually on the longer side, so 80K for a real YA is fine. Now, my first book, a middle grade fantasy, was around 50K, I think the one that went to print was 49 something. My next book, as it stands now, is 67K, which will probably be closer to 63-65 once my editor finishes his butery,uh, I mean editing :) This being my second book, since my first book was well-received, being longer is not a problem.

A first novel by an unknown, it's always better to err on the side of shorter. The first HP novel was around 80 something I think, and fantasy does tend to run longer, as do British submission standards, I think. Her books got longer in the series, and the publisher let her, because she was a proven seller, blah, blah blah. But Chamber of Secrets was almost the same length as SS, I think. They were close anyway. She wasn't blockbuster until after the third book.

Middle grade is GENERALLY 40-60K... but.... a) fantasy is usually given a little leeway, and b) a really fabulous book will sell no matter how long it is.

[RainbowDragon]

Thanks everyone for your input. Mine came out to low 70s, and the first hand-written agent rejection I got said the voice/tone is more for younger (middle-grade I suppose she means) readers yet the length for older. Of course she only read the very beginning, and it's intended for about ages 10 and up, (13-14 y. o. especially, as the protag is about 15 when the story really gets going--I read somewhere on here to subtract 2 from his/her age to figure the "target" readership), and rife with high school level vocabulary.

I'm tempted to leave the word count out of future queries, or to emphasize that it's only just over 260 pages (mid 66K by 250-method using Courier 12 - another controversial standard) - just don't want to keep getting rejected for the same (arbitrary, if you ask me) reason. It is fantasy, and shorter than the first Harry Potter!

Thanks everyone! Any other ideas still most welcome. . .

[TsukiRyoko]

Writer's Market is an excellent source for finding publishers for every genre and sub section. it's 29.99 in US bills, 39.99 in canada. excellent, excellent, you'll keep it by your side always

[rachel_r_randall]

I was curious about this too, thanks for asking.

[moondance]

I have just sold my first YA novel and it's 62k. I'm in the UK and it's a contemporary story, so I don't know if that makes any difference! Certainly no one has suggested it should be any shorter.

[RainbowDragon]

Congratulations, Moondance! I'm curious also about the UK Market, and whether writers from America can get their stuff read overseas, but thought it would go best in a new thread - feel free to step over there and enlighten us if you have the time!

[CaptMorgan]

Amelia Atwater-Rhodes has a couple books out that aren't even 30k.

[emsuniverse]

I have a problem on length... I fear mine is going to be too short, ending at about 25K. It's aimed for 13-15 year old girls. The problem right now with adding more is that it would be real substance, it would be fluff.

What should I do?

[Toni1953]

I have heard that 50,000 is a good length for a YA book.

[Zolah]

Well, I write fantasy, and that is traditionally slightly longer but...my first YA ms (plucked from the slushpile before I had an agent) was 60,000 words before editing. After working on it with my editor, it hit about 65,000 (comes to 288 pages in a trade paperback format). My second book is 75,000 words. Third is 72,000. So there's definitely hope.

[Toothpaste]

I feel a bit like a little kid spying on teenagers in the park, being an MG writer, not YA, but I thought I would add on. My MG book is 87 000 words, and was picked up by a publisher. The original edit that my agent saw before signing me was 10 000 more than that. I think there is such a thing as overwriting, but really if they like it they like it (however I will add that they are both british so. . .)

[Isabeaulia]

My YA was well over 90K when it was picked up by a publisher. It's since been reduced to the mid 80's w/edits, which is still considered high for a YA novel that is neither fantasy nor historical fiction. You just never know what you're going to get away with, I guess. ;)

[BrianTubbs]

Sounds like there's basically no industry consensus on appropriate lengths for YA books.

[jdumais]

I've got an historical YA at Puffin right now (my agent submitted it about six-eight weeks ago *crosses fingers*) that's currently holding at about 75k, and with every edit it seems to gain another five thousand or so. It was originally clocking in at about 50k, and my agent told me that would probably be too short -- though as with fantasy, historical might tend to run longer. 90k is probably too long unless you're an established author, but up to 80k ought to be fine.

[TPCSWR]

This is not exact but I generally guess a word count at 25,000 words per 100 pages. If you look at YA it ranges from about 125 - 600 pages, that's 30,000-150,000 words, a HUGE gap. Basically, it depends on the story and audience.

[timewaster]

I have just sold my first YA novel and it's 62k. I'm in the UK and it's a contemporary story, so I don't know if that makes any difference! Certainly no one has suggested it should be any shorter.

Mine are all in the 70-90 range, though they are (UK)Fantasy. My publisher is reluctant for me to go much longer than that because the books become more expensive to produce. Book design and font size obviously make a difference to the apparent length of the finished book so it is quite difficult to gauge the word count of published books.
I think my first, which was marketed as middle grade was round 70k but I cna't be positive; it wasn't an issue.

[caromora]

This is one of my favorite resources: http://www.renlearn.com/store/quiz_home.asp
You can plug in the name of the book, and it will give you the word count. Very helpful for seeing how books that are similar to yours clock in. It also lets you see which publishers go for longer books and which ones go for shorter.

[eyeblink]

As mentioned in another thread, I've seen YA novels under 35k. The longest one I've seen is Aidan Chambers's This Is All, which according to the website caromora links to above is 256k...though if you count Harry Potter as YA instead of MG, Order of the Phoenix is 1000 words longer.

[ebenstone]

I think that it may fall along genre lines. Amazon has this great option on many of their books that tells you how many words there are...fantasy seems to get a longer leash when it comes to word counts than other genres, even at the MG level.

[Charlie Horse]

This is definitely interesting reading. On first draft my current WIP was over 115k words. I'm about 2/3 through the 2nd draft and it looks like it'll end up at around 100k but it's a futuristic piece (I would say sci-fi but that's almost irrelevant to the plot) with the MCs ages ranging between 16-18. On one hand, it seems long but on the other, I think 16-18 year olds (and above) can handle it. Is this going to be a problem?

What I haven't seen addressed here is the question regarding computer generated word counts vs. the 250/pg. count. My chapters are all very short so I've lost a lot of pages with minor cuts (short pages at the end of chapters). Still, the word count at 250/pg is much higher than what my computer tells me.

Which one do you use?

[Carrie R.]

I use the count my computer gives me. Mine was 70k on submission and ended up being 90k at the final draft going into copy-edits.

[litgirl]

Miss Snark and other agents I've read say to just use the word counter on your word processor. Publishers don't pay novelists by the word! The word count is just to give them an approximate idea of length.

And if you do a word count check over at renlearn, you'll see that a huge percentage of MG/YA bestsellers are closer to 100K than anything (and those are usually some kind of fantasy. I can't see a contemporary problem novel being that long, though!)

[Mumut]

I'd like to know too. My YA WIP is going to fall around 75k before editing, which hopefully will bring it back down to 70k. The protags are 14 year old girls.

My first YA novel is just under 70K and the second 72K. MC is a 19yo girl.

I didn't know there was a problem with the length of a YA novel. I thought a story took as many words as needed to tell it. So I just sent proposals to publishers and the first is published in Australia and the second I have signed the contract for. I've also had them both accepted for publication in Canada for the Canada USA market.

So I wouldn't worry about the length. Just make sure the story is as good as you can get it.