Critiques: What do you want from them?

[poetinahat]

Hi, all -

Another in the discussion series on critiques. This time, think about them as a poet. Some points to think about:

- What sort of feedback do you find helpful in a crit?
- What do you find unhelpful or counterproductive?
- Do you want to know whether people like it or not? Whether they think it's good or bad?
- Do you rely on critiques to help you with rewrites?
- Do you find the expectation of a critique changes the way you write a poem in the first place?
- Do you get enough critiques on your work here?
- Do you always want critiques on your poems here, or do you sometimes just want to share them? What makes the difference for you?

I hope that, in discussing, we can make the crit process more helpful, and more fun. I'm looking forward to seeing your discussion.

[wordsheff]

I want people to be harsh and brutally honest.
Nothing is counterproductive.
What's good and bad and like are not are both subjective, but it's good to know both.
Yes, i rely HEAVILY on crits for rewrites. Anything trite, ugly, abstract, etc that i didn't notice before and have pointed out to me, unless i NEED it there, it's generally gone.
A little...but only b/c crits show me how the reader's mind works, which is important to know when writing.
I am happy with the amount of crits I get most the time.
Always want crits. Everything posted is a first draft unless stated otherwise.

I generally want to know what's too abstract i.e. didn't create any image, i want to know what seems done before, what is/n't beautiful, and make sure everything i wanted to say gets across.
I prefer analytical crits to emotive i.e. more this image doesn't go with the theme then, I liked this line, though both types of analysis/crits are welcome!

That's my opinion on the matter (great thread by the way, P), and that's what I try to give people here to a certain degree, depending on if they seem to want it or not.

WS

[louisgodwin]

I'm open to anything. If a poem of mine is up and you wanna trash it... Trash it. Tear it apart. Bend it over and make it your b... Okay, maybe that's a little extreme.

But if you love it, please say so. My ego can always use a good strokin'.

[Angelinity]

this is a great thread, poetinahat :) (wish i could call you 'poe'? :D )

i post poems in the 'critique' when i'm looking for feedback.

- What sort of feedback do you find helpful in a crit?

any take, really, as long as the critter elaborates at least a little bit.

- What do you find unhelpful or counterproductive?

not much - anything can be helpful to some extent. it depends on whether the critter takes the time to explain.

- Do you want to know whether people like it or not? Whether they think it's good or bad?

well, yeah - of course, i take anything with a grain of salt, because poetry is so personal - but feedback is always helpful.

- Do you rely on critiques to help you with rewrites?

depends on how long i've been working with the poem. if i'm pretty sure it's 'finished' as far as i'm concerned, then i don't rewrite (though i've been known to cave in to peer pressure :Shrug: . usually my poems get stronger after i get fresh eyes to read them.

- Do you find the expectation of a critique changes the way you write a poem in the first place?

nope - i write what i feel and go on from there.

- Do you get enough critiques on your work here?

sometimes yes, sometimes no - must admit some of my pieces can be hard on the eyes :poke: and critters just skip.

- Do you always want critiques on your poems here, or do you sometimes just want to share them? What makes the difference for you?

when posting a piece in the 'critique' section - yeah, i want crits :D

[K1P1]

I'm not sure whether this is just related specifically to the restricted poetry critique forum (which I haven't used) or to the open poetry writing forum (which I have used), but my answers would be the same in either case.

- What do you find unhelpful or counterproductive?
All comments are helpful, as long as the person isn't lying. Just saying you like the poem in order to say something positive is worthless.

- Do you want to know whether people like it or not? Whether they think it's good or bad?
Yes, but I want them to explain why. If they can't, then details as to what parts they liked/disliked or thought were good/bad are very helpful.

- Do you rely on critiques to help you with rewrites?
Yes. The poems I've posted are ones where I feel I couldn't quite accomplish what I wanted to, and I'm looking for feedback to see if others responses are different or the same as my own.

- Do you find the expectation of a critique changes the way you write a poem in the first place?
No.

- Do you get enough critiques on your work here?
Not sure yet. It's disappointing that the last poem I posted has gotten no response except, "very nice." I expected a bit more than that.

- Do you always want critiques on your poems here, or do you sometimes just want to share them? What makes the difference for you?
I want to share them, but I also want responses. If someone doesn't want to critique (i.e. discuss possible improvements), then a discussion of what works in the poem would still be helpful. However, I can sympathize with reticence. When I have encountered some of the poetry here, I was so humbled by the expertise it just left me in awe. For those, I've let the initial reaction sink in, then come back later to comment. It's like watching a play where the feeling at the end is so long that the audience sits in silence for a long, long moment before bursting into applause.

[drachin8]

Whoops! Totally missed this one last night...


- What sort of feedback do you find helpful in a crit?
Any feedback is good feedback. If you hate it, let me know why. If you love it, let me know why. If it is just blah and not doing anything at all, then what point is really losing you?


- What do you find unhelpful or counterproductive?
I have never had any unhelpful crits. I imagine they would be along the lines of "You suck, your writing sucks, and your mama wears combat boots." Hopefully, I shall never experience such a thing, though.


- Do you want to know whether people like it or not? Whether they think it's good or bad?
Hehe. Yeah. Knowing what others think gives me an idea of when I am being too sparse with details (as happens to me at times) or turning a phrase to odd to be seen by the eyes of man. And there is nothing like the ego boost of a crit response (whether positive or negative) to improve a long day...


- Do you rely on critiques to help you with rewrites?
I usually do some editing before my piece is posted. With critiques, I evaluate what each critiquer is saying, see what feels right to me, and rework accordingly. I do not think I can change a piece such that it pleases everybody, but oftentimes an outside view notices tweakable issues that I did not see on my own (or coincides with something I was thinking). It is kind of like poetry training, in a way: I learn a lot from critiques and critiquing.


- Do you find the expectation of a critique changes the way you write a poem in the first place?
Nope.


- Do you get enough critiques on your work here?
Pretty much. I have had only one piece completely slip through with zero comments (and I assume that means it was too odd/bad/whatever, so it is sitting and waiting for me to reapproach it someday). A certain amount of critiques isn't really necessary so long as one really good one slips in there.


- Do you always want critiques on your poems here, or do you sometimes just want to share them? What makes the difference for you?
I always post on the critique forum, so I do want critiques. I like sharing my pieces, but I also want to perfect them. The Poetry Critique forum allows me to achieve both of these goals. I don't want folks to just read my pieces and feel like they cannot rip into them if something is not working in it, so I do not post just to share. And with the exception of specific poets who PM me to come look over a piece in the upper poetry forum (which seems to be more sharing than the lower poetry forum), I rarely post in sharing poems. I feel too much like an intruder, and do not wish to scare off anyone who is just trying to share for the fun of it with my big evil critiquing comments.

:)

-Michelle

[poetinahat]

Short digression here, KTC:

- Help me understand. Poetry is only a warm-up for you; you don't place much value on it. Yet you pursue it avidly and post it prolifically. Why post it at all, then? What's the motivation? I guess you wouldn't be here if you cared nothing about poetry, but I'm bewildered.

You raise another question that came up earlier in another thread: Should we set aside a share-only section of the forum?

I just wouldn't want people to waste their time critiquing something that I put no time into writing.
Then why not say, "no critiques, please"? Save people some time.

I'm quite disconcerted by this revelation. I don't like the thought of the Poetry Forum as a dumping ground.

[drachin8]

I would worry with a Share Only forum that too many new poets would use it as a way to avoid critiques in fear and thus never grow. I know we have had some shy folk up here before, but most of them seem to appreciate those first crits once they get past the anxiety of receiving them. By nature of the forum names in the Poetry group, I view the upper forum as being a partial Share Only as it is, or perhaps Light Critique is a better term (not that there are not some awesome crits up there), and the lower forum as the shark pit.

I want to see the poets on this board grow into their poetry, find their voice, and maximize the telling of their stories. I think one of the best ways to do that is not just to receive crits, but also to learn to give crits and evaluate what makes a piece work.

:)

-Michelle

[poetinahat]

Good point, Michelle. This is a forum -- a medium for exchange.

But if the boards become clogged with poems where the author doesn't care about responses, it's a disservice to the people here who spend their time reading and responding. A share-only section would allow the rest of us to concentrate on the folks who actually do want to do something with their poetry.

I'd say that the least a person can do is say "not interested in crits".

[poetinahat]

There's a lot of candid and insightful comment on this thread already. It's most encouraging.

Let's have more.

[Paint]

Hi yall! Great thread!

-What sort of feedback do you find helpful in a crit?
I would like to know how my poem made you feel. That's my motive in writing it.

- What do you find unhelpful or counterproductive?
It all helps in some way. If I made any impact, that's important.

- Do you want to know whether people like it or not? Whether they think it's good or bad?
Sure, but I may not agree with it being 'bad.' It helps me to determine if it needs more work.

- Do you rely on critiques to help you with rewrites?
No, I usually go with the gut. So rely is not the right word. But crits help me rewrite to get the feeling I want across.

- Do you find the expectation of a critique changes the way you write a poem in the first place?
No, I try not to go there. The poem should be what I wrote, not an expectation. That is prostituting my art.

- Do you get enough critiques on your work here?
I always want more attention.

- Do you always want critiques on your poems here, or do you sometimes just want to share them? What makes the difference for you?
I want to know how the reader feels, or I wouldn't be here. That is the difference. That's why I blog too.

Let me take a moment to thank you all for reading my work and for the absolutely wonderful things you say in my reps. There is such a good group of people here and I rely on that, and try to give back.
Paint

[ddgryphon]

- What sort of feedback do you find helpful in a crit?
Pointing out cliche's, images that don't come clear, line break choices

- What do you find unhelpful or counterproductive?
A flippant attitude -- what seems like casual, off the cuff banter rather than thoughtful consideration.

- Do you want to know whether people like it or not? Whether they think it's good or bad?
I would like to know if someone likes it, though not all poetry is about being liked, some is about being shaken or stirred. Whether they think it is bad or good isn't nearly as useful as knowing WHY they think it bad or good.

- Do you rely on critiques to help you with rewrites?
To some degree. I appreciate a different perspective, and will look at any thoughtful suggestions offered, particularly in the case of something I find difficult to write.

- Do you find the expectation of a critique changes the way you write a poem in the first place?

No. I think that every reader in some way critiques a piece before accepting or dismissing it.

- Do you get enough critiques on your work here?
Sometimes. I know we are all busy people, and working hard at our own writing, but I try to give thoughtful critiques whenever possible. I don't expect everyone to respond, but sometimes it is disconcerting that so few people say anything at all, given our membership.

- Do you always want critiques on your poems here, or do you sometimes just want to share them? What makes the difference for you?

Pretty much, I used to post mostly in the critique section, but I get so few responses there that I gave up and just posted out in the webisphere section. I really appreciate the thoughtful critiques I get.

I like to know what people respond to in a given piece and why they reacted in the way they did. I want to know if they are affected by the work, because poems should affect us -- reach us on an emotional level. Poetry is music for words. It touches us in ways that prose can not, and creates something portable, we can carry with us.

I find this a particularly gifted group of writers with a broad range of interests and efforts. I feel I'm priviledged to be among you and appreciate your thoughts and concerns regarding my efforts.

Also, a critique isn't always about what's wrong with a piece, it needs to also be about what's right in a given work and how what works and what doesn't work relates to each other and the reader.

Great idea for a thread!

[Stew21]

I can happily solve the 'dumping ground' problem simply by not posting any more of my poetry.

that would make me incredibly sad. i hope you don't mean that.

[Stew21]

i know you've said it before, but i get a lot from reading it, i get a lot from your participation here. You're comments are always welcome and i love to read the new things you write. i've learned a lot from you, regardless.

[drachin8]

KTC, there are a lot of people who love reading your pieces, so please don't stop posting.

:)

I think perhaps the original intention was for this upper forum to be more of a Sharing and General Discussion forum with the lower forum being the weightier Critique section, but maybe those intentions got lost along the way since not enough people were critting in the lower forum. So, the question becomes then, why are people more likely to crit in the upper forum than the lower? What is it that makes one read the poems in one place but not in another?

I know I haunt the lower forum because I assume everybody there wants a crit and isn't going to just post stuff they don't care about. But I know there is a lot of solid critting going on topside as well.

So, for those of you that crit and post in the upper levels, why do you do so? What makes the lower forum less inviting? If it is the lack of people critiquing, then the only way to fix that is to entice our upper forum critters into the lower forum a bit more. So, chime in with your thoughts! Why do you post where you post and crit where you crit?

:)

-Michelle

[Godfather]

I want to know what they think.
Does it work, does it not?
Which parts, and why?
Did you like it, did you not?

I want to know everythang.

[Rivana]

- What sort of feedback do you find helpful in a crit?

Depends on the poem. I always love feedback, but of course I only find critique helpful if I agree or find that it offers something interesting. Also I like it when people point out specific parts that they like about the piece. Positive feedback is always helpful to me even if it's just a pat on the back because frankly I thrive on it -it's the coin of the realm after all.

- What do you find unhelpful or counterproductive?

Didn't like it, did nothing for me, that's bad, do a total rewrite etc. Wholly negative crit without redeeming qualities.

- Do you want to know whether people like it or not? Whether they think it's good or bad?

I like knowing if they like it or think it's good, but if they think it's simply bad I could do just as well without that particular remark since it just upsets me and is such a personal opinion anyway. Positive feedback is personal too, but at least that makes me feel good.

- Do you rely on critiques to help you with rewrites?

Not as a rule, but sometimes I get a crit that's really helpful and I use it shamelessly. Depends on the poem and the critique basically.

- Do you find the expectation of a critique changes the way you write a poem in the first place?

No. I never expect con crit, I hope for feedback, but what I put out there I put out there because I want to share it above all. Either because I have a story to tell, a feeling to convey or an idea. Because I want people to think and/or feel something when reading. I can't not write and what use is having a talent if you don't share it so I do. I want to give something back to the world to use an old cliché.
But if someone doesn't like it...well that's the way it works; people have different tastes and frames of reference. Either way that doesn't change what I want to say and it won't keep me quiet unless I feel I am being completely unappreciated. *shrug* God am I babbling.

- Do you get enough critiques on your work here?

Enough crit? Since I've never posted on the critique forum I've never expected con crit so I don't really care either way. But that's not really an issue. As I said; crit is always appreciated, even if I'm not one of those people who desire and covet it. I always read and reflect on all crit, but mostly I'm happy enough with my work and change nothing. Too much feedback? Could never happen.

- Do you always want critiques on your poems here, or do you sometimes just want to share them? What makes the difference for you?

As I said; I'm very seldom looking for con crit since most of the times I'm pretty happy with my poetry -otherwise I wouldn't be sharing it or I'd be sharing it in the crit forum specifically. What do I mean by this?
Well, look...I don't have anything against con crit. I post to share and I love feedback and sometimes I find con crit helpful. What annoys me (not on this forum specifically just in general) is when people critique and expect me to change my work accordingly and get pissed if I don't. I come to these sort of places to share my work and to look at other people's work, I am not here looking for a teacher. If someone critiques my poetry I am grateful for the time put down and sometimes I'll also be grateful for having been able to improve my work. But, I don't often get critique that I agree with and when I don't agree I will not change anything and I damn well will not apologize for that.

[ddgryphon]

KTC, there are a lot of people who love reading your pieces, so please don't stop posting.

Ditto Ditto!

[wordsheff]

I would worry with a Share Only forum that too many new poets would use it as a way to avoid critiques in fear and thus never grow. I know we have had some shy folk up here before, but most of them seem to appreciate those first crits once they get past the anxiety of receiving them. By nature of the forum names in the Poetry group, I view the upper forum as being a partial Share Only as it is, or perhaps Light Critique is a better term (not that there are not some awesome crits up there), and the lower forum as the shark pit.

I want to see the poets on this board grow into their poetry, find their voice, and maximize the telling of their stories. I think one of the best ways to do that is not just to receive crits, but also to learn to give crits and evaluate what makes a piece work.

:)

-Michelle

Shouldn't we only worry about our own growth? Maybe some people don't care to grow poetically...just want to keep writing how they do.

[Shiraz]

Ditto Ditto!

Triple ditto!


As for the question asked - aside from really obvious mistakes, I always regard anyone's poetry as pretty personal stuff and generally think of my own work in that way. Although a reader's impressions and general observations as to the piece is always good, I really HATE IT when someone messes so much with my poetry that it isn't mine anymore.

So, that said, unless I am considering subbing somewhere I usually just share. I'm pretty up front if I want some good critiquing because I don't want a finished piece to be . . . well, unfinished, or unpolished if I'm sending it out.

I hope that doesn't sound as arrogant as I think it does. :tongue

[wordsheff]

I don't need to post poems here. The thing is, they were all written here. I just open a new thread and type it in. I can do that in MS Word just as easily.

I am in no way a poetry snob, and I have liked some of your stuff a great deal, but I have a hard time accepting something as poetry that was written like that. Then again, at the the same time i cringe about typing that b/c one of my all-time fave books, On The Road, was written in that manner, only in weeks, not in minutes/hours/whatever.

Anyway, I don't mind you posting stuff you write like that. I like a lot of the ways you phrase things, etc. It's good stuff. However, it was annoying that one day you and Stew21 went back and forth writing to each other in "poem" form, knocking everybody's poetry off the forum.

IDK...I'd be curious to read some of your prose that you really work on. Where can we find it?

WS

[drachin8]

Shouldn't we only worry about our own growth? Maybe some people don't care to grow poetically...just want to keep writing how they do.

*swats wordsheff on the nose*

Bad, wordsheff!

:)

Yes, we should always be concerned with our own growth, but as a community, it strengthens us all to look towards the growth of others as well. Keener eyes and sharper minds help us all in our own passages to perfection. I do not simply post here because there are X perfect poets willing to critique my work, but because there is a community of poets willing to work together to help each other achieve greater perfection. It is true that some folk may not wish to grow in their art, but that doesn't mean we should ignore those who simply haven't discovered yet the joy in self-growth. A lot of learning in the writing world is self-motivated, but that does not mean we cannot help to steer community members onto that path of learning.

If we all just looked out for ourselves in life, there wouldn't be as many teachers willing to work hard guiding the next generation, ja?

Granted, doing such is a personal choice, and nobody should be forced to help others grow, but I like to believe there are plenty of people in this community who are willing to go that extra step that makes this place special. The hard part is finding the time balance between self-growth and helping others. That, and wondering if you are actually doing any good...but that is whole other discussion.

In the meantime, one nose swat for you, wordsheff! Lemme know if you need a bandaid....

:)

-Michelle

[Paint]

Hmmm...what is wrong with warm-up poetry? I don't get this discussion. I use the games here for warm-up. Some of them go on to other arenas in fact a lot of them do. Some of my work that I like best was written in five min when my muse was really on top of it.
KTC, you are a good poet, no matter how and when you write.
Paint

[NeuroFizz]

Just as anyone's decision to post here and obtain feedback should be respected, so should one's decision to post here and not receive feedback.

Poetry doesn't have to be polished to go here.

Poetry doesn't have to be in any particular format--this is a personal decision that shouldn't be slammed by those who prefer other formats.

If someone's words move you, acknowledge it as a means of encouragement.

If you have an idea that might improve someone's piece, provide your views in a constructive way.

If you want to pick someone's brain on why they did what they did, do so.

The original poster is not required to respond to subsequent posts in his/her thread.

I like to read the works of others, and I like to read the responses, whether I post anything or not. I learn from others in this way, either passively or actively.

Kevin, I would be very disappointed if you quit posting your poems here.

[DeniseK]

I am in no way a poetry snob, and I have liked some of your stuff a great deal, but I have a hard time accepting something as poetry that was written like that. Then again, at the the same time i cringe about typing that b/c one of my all-time fave books, On The Road, was written in that manner, only in weeks, not in minutes/hours/whatever.

Anyway, I don't mind you posting stuff you write like that. I like a lot of the ways you phrase things, etc. It's good stuff. However, it was annoying that one day you and Stew21 went back and forth writing to each other in "poem" form, knocking everybody's poetry off the forum.

IDK...I'd be curious to read some of your prose that you really work on. Where can we find it?

WS

This was my point the day I caught so much flack in the last discussion thread.

[poetinahat]

Kevin, all I did was ask why you post if you don't really care about the stuff you write. People here like your poetry -- look at the outpouring on this thread along -- and I do too.

Our point of difference is on the use of the two forum areas.

I saw the difference being that the Critique area is for works one might intend to publish, in order to protect First Rights. There's a lot of critting that happens in the open area; you know that. You'd also see that many people expect crits on the open board. They bump their threads and ask why they haven't received any feedback. That's the way the board is used.

I used the term "dumping ground" because your initial post made it sound like you have little regard yourself for the poetry you write. That being the case, it's natural to want to know your reasons for posting it.

And some of us put a fair amount of thought and energy into crits. I'd like to know it hasn't gone to waste. If I've spent half an hour on a crit the poet doesn't even want, I feel like I've been made a fool.

So, crits only on the Critique board? Poll coming soon.

[Stew21]

HOLD ON. Please. Kevin is an active member of this forum, posting in several threads, always entering the contests, responding to people's work, providing discussion topics, playing and starting poetry games. What exactly are you saying? Limit yourself to the number of poems you post in a day? Only post stuff that it took you 10 days and 100 revisions to create?
I'm offended. Highly.

[Stew21]

I am in no way a poetry snob, and I have liked some of your stuff a great deal, but I have a hard time accepting something as poetry that was written like that. Then again, at the the same time i cringe about typing that b/c one of my all-time fave books, On The Road, was written in that manner, only in weeks, not in minutes/hours/whatever.

Anyway, I don't mind you posting stuff you write like that. I like a lot of the ways you phrase things, etc. It's good stuff. However, it was annoying that one day you and Stew21 went back and forth writing to each other in "poem" form, knocking everybody's poetry off the forum.

IDK...I'd be curious to read some of your prose that you really work on. Where can we find it?

WS

Poetry that posts here has to live up to YOUR standards before it's considered worth your time? It's not worth poetry forum space if it wasn't composed the way YOU compose poetry?
huh? really.

[Stew21]

Not you, Rob. Not you. you are perfectly fair and right. Re-read posts by others. You will find it.

[Perks]

I think it was a knee-jerk reaction to KTC's first post. Not to put too fine a point on it, but when one of the most prolific and praised poets here, tosses off that the AW poetry forum is his doodle pad and that he doesn't value the poems or the critiques they inspire, it's not beyond expectation that it could come off wrong.

I don't mind if Kevin doesn't care about his poetry or writes them spontaneously in the window. It's interesting that his dandruff sparks clever word play and apparent insight. I suppose I'm envious. I'm just not all that surprised that it rankled in it's delivery.

Don't quit posting on our account, Kev. Just reread and try to see where that might not have come off as you perhaps you meant it to.

[poetinahat]

God bless you, Perks. That's what I meant. It's nothing to do with the time spent or number of revisions. It's EVERYthing to do with intent, and respect for the readership.

If I spend time and energy critting somebody's doodles, I feel like I've been had. They may be beautiful doodles, but if they're just going in the rubbish bin anyway, the writer's made a fool of me. I'm bound to consider anything posted here as a serious effort.

There are other poems here, patiently awaiting critiques. I just want to know who's going to appreciate them.

[poetinahat]

AGAIN...I thought the Poetry Forum was for simply posting your poems and the locked Critique forum was for asking for critiques of your poems. Why have two places if they are both for the same thing? Now I'm confused. The Poetry Game thread should have alerted me...that one always confused me because it's in the locked forum. I have never looked twice at the poems I posted in that game.

I don't need to post poems here. The thing is, they were all written here. I just open a new thread and type it in. I can do that in MS Word just as easily.
Come and vote in the poll, Kevin. It's already clear that there are plenty of people who thought as you did, and plenty who thought as I did.

[Perks]

You would have to know my state of mind while I typed those responses to know whether they were typed in anger. You not being angry doesn't make your statments any less shocking. Glad to hear you weren't annoyed, though.

Post poems or not, but on your own whim, not to avoid upsetting would-be critiquers. Certainly knowing they mean nothing, that it's a cobweb clearing exercise, will change some readers impressions of them from the outset. But since you don't care, er, well, you don't care. So, everybody's happy.

It was a a bit of a bombshell, bit I'm sure we'll all recover.

[Shiraz]

I get what you're saying, KTC, I really do. I just don't think you should stop posting your work because you don't want anyone to give input unnecessarily by critiquing it. There are too many people who love to read it.

Instead of non-posting, how about you just put a little disclaimer if-you-will with each one:

"Sharing only - all critiques will be ignored, but feel free if it trips your trigger" or something of the sort. That way, you can't say you were responsible for wasting anyone's time who wants to give you feedback.

Just a thought.

:Shrug:

[Godfather]

I am in no way a poetry snob, and I have liked some of your stuff a great deal, but I have a hard time accepting something as poetry that was written like that. Then again, at the the same time i cringe about typing that b/c one of my all-time fave books, On The Road, was written in that manner, only in weeks, not in minutes/hours/whatever.

Anyway, I don't mind you posting stuff you write like that. I like a lot of the ways you phrase things, etc. It's good stuff. However, it was annoying that one day you and Stew21 went back and forth writing to each other in "poem" form, knocking everybody's poetry off the forum.

IDK...I'd be curious to read some of your prose that you really work on. Where can we find it?

WS

Hmmm... and I disagree.

A poem that takes ten seconds can be better than a poem that takes ten years. Poetry has nothing to do with time. A lot of the stuff that I write just comes out on the spot. And a lot of the time, when I look over it, I only change minor things. It came out well the first time, why would I rewrite for the sake of spending time on it? To me, writing a good poem in the first try is equally as satisfying as taking a long time to get it how I want it. Same result, right?

Howl, one night. One of the great poems of our time.

And Kevin, I would feel almost insulted if you stopped posting your poems because of this. I don't think thats much of a solution, because that's only going to upset other people. One of which is me. In my mind, a difference of opinion is no reason to do that.

[erslyman]

Poetry writing isn't easy. Criticism in online workshops is often threadbare. Show don't tell, a phrase writers of poetry need to hear. The online workshop serves as community more than workshop.

Fun to visit.

[LimeyDawg]

Hi, all -

- What sort of feedback do you find helpful in a crit?Really, anything that fixes logical flaws, punctuation errors and any errors as they relate to poetry. Here, anything goes because the crits are essential for improvements.
- What do you find unhelpful or counterproductive? Yeah, here's my biggest beef with some crits on other sites. NEVER address the writer's apparent ability as a poet. Stick to addressing the issues of the work before you. That is good advice in any area of life, not just poetry. Thankfully, this doesn't happen here.
- Do you want to know whether people like it or not? Whether they think it's good or bad?I'm not sure if that is important. Its good for the ego and everyone likes to be appreciated. It's also important to note that any clear poetry will have an audience somewhere. Yes, I like when people say they like my work but its not necessarily helpful in improving that work.
- Do you rely on critiques to help you with rewrites?Of course.
- Do you find the expectation of a critique changes the way you write a poem in the first place?Yes. If I've received crits in the past I refer back to them to try and remove glaring errors before I consider a draft sufficiently done.
- Do you get enough critiques on your work here?Yes and no. Sometimes, when I see a high number of views and no crits I think "man, that must have really sucked." Mostly, though, the crits I do get are helpful, which might be more important: quality over quantity.
- Do you always want critiques on your poems here, or do you sometimes just want to share them? What makes the difference for you?I always want crits. There are plenty of sites where people will simply tell you that you are a wonderful poet and that they really enjoyed your work. I'm here to improve my craft...get busy people ;)
[/quote]

Nice thread, thanks.

[LimeyDawg]

Good point, Michelle. This is a forum -- a medium for exchange.

But if the boards become clogged with poems where the author doesn't care about responses, it's a disservice to the people here who spend their time reading and responding.
I'm not sure if I agree entirely with this. I don't always crit everything I read. Often times, I only get a line or two into a piece before moving on. I believe there is value in posting all work. It might not necessarily be anything the writer is going to use (after all, we can take or leave any crits) but there is value in the exercise of critiquing poetry, regardless of whether or not those crits are well-received. My two cents.

[LimeyDawg]

I can happily solve the 'dumping ground' problem simply by not posting any more of my poetry.Okay, you're gonna get me all pissy if you take that attitude...I, like many here (I'm sure) enjoy what you post. Hell, if we start putting limits on what can be posted here how can it possibly have any value? If you don't use the crits I'm fine with that but I'm still going to offer them. If you stop posting then the site has lost some of its appeal.

[LimeyDawg]

Thanks Trish. I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just saying if it's a problem that I don't want a critique, even though I never ever post my stuff in the critique section, then I simply will not post. I mistakingly thought that critiques were kept ONLY in the critique forum. It's no sweat off my back to stop posting. It really doesn't matter to me. Rob said he was bewildered and disconcerted that I used the forum for a dumping ground. I simply won't. End of problem.:rant: :Soapbox::Headbang:

[DeniseK]

Godfather, I don't think wordsheff was referring to the amount of time spent on a poem, but on the attitude that the poet doesn't put any value on the work. No matter how you lay it out, that's a cavalier attitude and insulting to those who care deeply about poetry, their own and poetry in general., even though I don't believe KTC meant it to sound that way.

[LimeyDawg]

*swats wordsheff on the nose*

Bad, wordsheff!

:)

Yes, we should always be concerned with our own growth, but as a community, it strengthens us all to look towards the growth of others as well.




:)

-MichelleDammit, I'm running out of pennies. Here's another two cents. I have this huge problem with not helping others get better. Not one poet ever got where he or she did without help. We could be like that OTHER site, sheff, that blows people out of the water before offering anything resembling a chance to improve. Many of the people who write things that really are terrible so so simply because nobody stepped up to help. Yes, there will be those who don't feel they need help. That shouldn't stop us, as a community, helping with crits. This should be about being proponents for poetry as a whole, not as a site that runs people off because of their apparent ability or their desire to receive crits. It's about the poetry, dammit... :Soapbox:

[LimeyDawg]

Ahhh, but so much depends upon the looney behind the curtain

[Godfather]

KTC, my brother.
I understand what you mean when you say it will solve the problem if you stop posting, and I appreciate it. But then more problems will arise, you know? If you stopped, this is how I would see it; that you were restricted, and all your poems were not welcome. Which is not the case.

There would be more and more things then, people would be getting touchy, and before long, the poetry board wouldn't be the same. It would just be 'board'.

[LimeyDawg]

Brother Godfather speaks the truth, although I'm sure he meant "bored". In any case, ditto.

[JennaGlatzer]

KTC, you're one of my favorite poets, too. I think what would solve the problem at least on a temporary basis is for anyone who's sharing just to share and not for critiques should put "sharing" or "not for critique" in the subject line or in the post. That way it can still be posted and everyone understands the poet's expectations.

We can continue to think about a long-term solution (sticky threads, a separate sub-board, etc.), but that should help for the meantime.

[ddgryphon]

KTC, you're one of my favorite poets, too. I think what would solve the problem at least on a temporary basis is for anyone who's sharing just to share and not for critiques should put "sharing" or "not for critique" in the subject line or in the post. That way it can still be posted and everyone understands the poet's expectations.

We can continue to think about a long-term solution (sticky threads, a separate sub-board, etc.), but that should help for the meantime.

Yes! Short term with long term goals -- good call.

[Shiraz]

What a great idea - wish I would have thought of it. :tongue

[P.H.Delarran]

What sort of feedback do you find helpful in a crit? all of it; initial reaction, imagery issues, comments on word use, grammar, line breaks, rythym, cliche, everything and anything others are willing to comment on. Each view is a new perspective and I'll take every peak into the reader's head that I can get.
- What do you find unhelpful or counterproductive? persistent questioning gets to be nit-picky.
- Do you want to know whether people like it or not? Whether they think it's good or bad? Yes to all if they want to say that, but I would prefer them state why as well. And it doesn't mean I will change anything, but it's good to have a feel for how the piece is received.
- Do you rely on critiques to help you with rewrites? I take it all under consideration, but sometimes what others see negatively may be exactly what I was looking or. In other words, I absorb all feedback but reserve 'Author's prerogative' to take it or leave it.
- Do you find the expectation of a critique changes the way you write a poem in the first place? Not really, but I may be more careful to tighten things up before posting, so as not to take advantage. BUT, a critique I get on one piece can and has influenced further work.
- Do you get enough critiques on your work here? I have been very happy with the feedback received here.
- Do you always want critiques on your poems here, or do you sometimes just want to share them? What makes the difference for you? I'm always open and appretiative to any comments, but if I'm specifically looking for help on a piece, I will ask for it.

[Godfather]

KTC, you're one of my favorite poets, too. I think what would solve the problem at least on a temporary basis is for anyone who's sharing just to share and not for critiques should put "sharing" or "not for critique" in the subject line or in the post. That way it can still be posted and everyone understands the poet's expectations.

We can continue to think about a long-term solution (sticky threads, a separate sub-board, etc.), but that should help for the meantime.

What if I made a thread that was just the poem title, and the post was just the poem, and maybe a few comments about the poem. But I say nothing about sharing or whatever. Thats what I normally do, will that make any difference?

Limey, I partly meant 'bored', but also if that happened, it would be taking the poetry out of it.

[wordsheff]

Michelle...when i asked shouldn't we just worry about our own growth...i didn't mean i dont care about others', i meant only care about another's growth if they care about it, too...so if someone is completely content writing exactly how they do and exactly as well as they do everyday, then that is there thing and I won't worry about trying to help them "grow."

Godfather, I never said the time it took to write a piece was a factor in a poem's greatness...look what DeniseK said, she had it right.

Anyway, good to be back...internet is screwy lately.

KTC, you still didn't tell us where we can see your prose.

Stew21, offended? Sorry. I never said it had to be to my standards, i just said i was annoyed...there is a difference.

WS

[Stew21]

then i'm sorry you were annoyed by a day of spontaneous poetry.
and i'm sorry if i misunderstood your post's intentions, WS.

[drachin8]

Glad to hear that is what you meant, word! You had me worried there for a bit because you are a good critiquer, and it would have been a shame to not have others learn from you.

:)

Soooo, do I have to take my swat back? Or swat my own nose for misinterpretation?

-Michelle

[LimeyDawg]

OOO, ooo, wait a minute, I get this...words are a metaphor, right? A metaphor for....;) See, man, we get you...we really do.

[LimeyDawg]

What if I made a thread that was just the poem title, and the post was just the poem, and maybe a few comments about the poem. But I say nothing about sharing or whatever. Thats what I normally do, will that make any difference? Nope, I'm still going to read and crit

Limey, I partly meant 'bored', but also if that happened, it would be taking the poetry out of it.Yeah, I figured, but the wheels were turning and someone gave me a quarter so I had an extra two-cents to throw in.

[P.H.Delarran]

talk about backwash.

[Godfather]

KTC, my preferred method of extracting poetry is inspiration. But the inspirations gotta be inspiring, you know?

[poetinahat]

Okay, is everybody on speaking terms again?

It's gotten a little brisk and brusque, and I've had a role in that happening. I regret any resentment or ill feeling, but I do think there's good coming out of the discussion.

It's a real joy that people care this much about a poetry forum.

[Stew21]

Trish. How's about we get a room somewhere and slap each other with words.

how cathartic!!! Sounds delightful! :)

[Stew21]

my my my...how I have missed thelma and earl! welcome home, you rascals!
Now git yer butts down to bidness, fix a pot a sumthin and start writtin!

[poetinahat]

Looky heah, Earl, it's cuzzin Laretta! It's a reeeeeyew-onion!

We're drankin' beer from BOTTLES tanite!

[Stew21]

scoot yer butt over off that thar tailgate, earl and tell me a story...use the purty wurds.

[LimeyDawg]

Don't go gittin all mushy like, Thelma. I'm libel a toss ya off that thar water skateboard a yourins!He he, I'm originally from England and when ya say "toss ya off" it has a COMPLETELY different meaning than the one you intended. Of course, if we're making up I guess its okay...

[Stew21]

He he, I'm originally from England and when ya say "toss ya off" it has a COMPLETELY different meaning than the one you intended. Of course, if we're making up I guess its okay...

it means that over here too, sometimes. ;)

[darkprincealain]

- What sort of feedback do you find helpful in a crit?

I think everything is helpful, to some degree or other. For example, I once was told of a different connotation to a certain word, and that particular word didn't mean to me the same thing as my reader, so I was able to make a change that fixed the issue... I'm not certain if he went away happy, but I was satisfied and happy knowing the poem was clearer.

- What do you find unhelpful or counterproductive?

Almost nothing can be unhelpful if you take it in the right spirit. I'd prefer to really know what's wrong and what's right with my work, instead of having to guess.

- Do you want to know whether people like it or not? Whether they think it's good or bad?

Not in those terms, no. I'd like evidence of why they like it or not, or why they think it's good or bad. Textual evidence from the writing itself, preferably.

- Do you rely on critiques to help you with rewrites?

Yes, but I do hope that I make conscious decisions about each and every word and punctuation mark that goes into writing. So, I guess I mean, yes but don't intend to use that crit as a crutch for lack of relevant thought put into the work.

- Do you find the expectation of a critique changes the way you write a poem in the first place?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I guess I fall into the category of attempting look at the work and identifying details that do and don't work, rewriting what I should, not rewriting what I shouldn't, and hopefully it all works as a cohesive unit once I'm done with the details.

- Do you get enough critiques on your work here?

Just got brave and posted my first work today.

- Do you always want critiques on your poems here, or do you sometimes just want to share them? What makes the difference for you?

Just got brave and posted my first today, but I do think there are some which fit my definition of completed. Those I would prefer not to have critted, and I hope to post those in the correct way. Though I guess it could be helpful even then to know what works and what doesn't.

[Brigitte]

Ok, this helps.

1. I guess anything.

2. Too much judgment on a poem. Wait for others, ask me questions if you don't know me.

3 Yes I will truely like to know if they like it or not. Tell me if it's good or bad, even if I have to bit my lip. Been a few well- days in this website and it's me makes me realise how stupid i can be.

4 Mmm, yes.

5. Kind of, I want to.

6. Before wasn't so sure, now, yes, I want more and more and more.

7. Both. When my hope is too high I want critiques.

[Kerlee]

-What sort of feedback do you find helpful in a crit?
well it's wrong to assume someone likes a piece just because they come along and rip it to bits. So I would say I'd like to know why they bothered to stop in the first place... where they having a particularly crap day or is your work like dung they feel they must tell smells?

- What do you find unhelpful or counterproductive?
something with nothing encouraging, no prospective positive outlook here.. forever.. a big seeming plot hole one must not point out was actually covered.

- Do you want to know whether people like it or not? Whether they think it's good or bad? < both combined or good if it's just bad skip it.. the numbers will soon tell the story... it smells badly ;-D

- Do you rely on critiques to help you with rewrites?
I am trying to assess their value due to the varying opinions in crits.. I mean you can please some of the people some of the time. It is good to have other eyes look it over.. u know just in case


- Do you find the expectation of a critique changes the way you write a poem in the first place?
hmmm well really I would never rip my rhyme from a piece to write it free form but then maybe in 20 yrs I might so I retract the never.. not now


- Do you get enough critiques on your work here?
not enough to create a standard deviation.


- Do you always want critiques on your poems here, or do you sometimes just want to share them? What makes the difference for you?
yes that's why I post em for the critters, I like to know they've been run over .. one way or the other.. before I decide where to file them

[TurtleFarmer]

I'm a fan of the "what works, what doesn't" school. When I think a poem is beyond repair, I don't comment at all. If I like it, I say so. Some of us are still growing our skins, and being slammed is not really useful.

I wouldn't be here if I didn't think poetry was an art, a skill, perhaps a calling and real hard work. I don't really know what to say about the efforts of those who believe that abstruse images and odd line-lengths doth a poem make - that you dash off "what you feel in your heart" and call it a poem. Those folks, I think, don't read much poetry. They leave me speechless, so to speak.