How to write a good western book

[wrbenton]

http://www.wrbenton.com/temp40/Cowboy.jpg

So, You Want To Write Western Fiction?
Lasso your publisher with high-falootin' western fare
Copyright 2005 By W.R. Benton

It's a much-felt occupational hazard of those of us who write. Most manuscripts submitted each year to publishers are never seriously considered for publication, much less read. Near as I can guess, pardner, we have about two or three sentences to lasso a publishers attention.

I am often asked how I get a publisher to look at my western fiction, with its already flooded market, and how I go about having them read beyond the first paragraph. To that end I have five rules that I consider essential in preparing my manuscripts for submission. Ride 'em out, rawhide!!

1) Consider your audience carefully. Most western fiction readers have a better than average knowledge of history. They'll bust you immediately if your book has any serious inaccuracies in it. While you don’t have to know everything about the west to write about it, your writing must be historically accurate to a large degree.

I round up a veritable stampede of research on any western fiction I intend to write. It aids me in developing not only the particularly primitive lifestyle and the equipment, weapons, geography, social mores and language that go with it, but story's setting as well.

2) Develop a solid plot that has a lot of action and adventure woven into it, but make sure it's believable. Western fiction readers read to be transported to another era. So keep in mind the constant battle for survival that most folks faced in those days. Men and women met, fell in love, got married and had families, with nary a hint of sex, against the backdrop of the dangers and constant pressures of discovering a new land. When I do have a sex scene in a book, I usually take the reader just so far . . . and then fade out. Fodder for endless stories will arise from just imagining, in this modern age, their hardships.

3) Keep your dialog consistent. Most people in the 1800’s were very poorly educated, though there were exceptions, and not many of them could do much more than write their names or read small portions of the Bible. Make sure your dialog reflects this, but don’t use it to the point that it becomes hard for the reader to follow what is being said. I don’t think it matters a great deal the phonetic spellings you may use as long as you use the same spelling all the time.

4) Make your main character a person who is revered. He/she should be a person of deep thought and vast knowledge, a crusader for justice and a champion of the American "way." While it is not necessary for them to be full of book-larnin', they should should be a hitchin' post of humanity, abundantly capable of rational, logical thought processes and master of his/her emotions (cowboys/girls don't cry). Brilliant, but self-taught, and from the school of hard knocks. Regardless of the character's education, he/she must be an individual of rare intelligence and the highest personal integrity. And, they must stand up to evil, with no back down in ‘em.

5) Start your book with action right off the bat! Do yourself a favor. You might try a gunfight or Indian attack. I almost immediately place my primary character in a life-threatening situation -- in western fiction, a sure-fire attention grabber. To keep it, at the end of the chapter, leave the situation suspended, playing on the reader's subconscious. And just keep that action and adventure comin' throughout, you ol' rattlesnake, you!

Now, y'all pull up a high-backed chair, hang up your six-shooters, kick off them boots and tell me your tallest tale of the Old West, pardn'r!

"First published by Inkwell Newswatch (IN) http://www.fwointl.com/in.html (http://www.fwointl.com/in.html)"

[wrbenton]

Nope, no spam just suggestions to try and help. I had the article first published by Inkwell Newswatch and they request I use the link at the bottom of the article to show where it was published originally.

[Sassenach]

4) Make your main character a person who is revered. He/she should be a person of deep thought and vast knowledge, a crusader for justice and a champion of the American "way." While it is not necessary for them to be full of book-larnin', they should should be a hitchin' post of humanity, abundantly capable of rational, logical thought processes and master of his/her emotions (cowboys/girls don't cry). Brilliant, but self-taught, and from the school of hard knocks. Regardless of the character's education, he/she must be an individual of rare intelligence and the highest personal integrity. And, they must stand up to evil, with no back down in ‘em.

That's going to come as news to Larry McMurtry.

Now, y'all pull up a high-backed chair, hang up your six-shooters, kick off them boots and tell me your tallest tale of the Old West, pardn'r!

Silent scream:::::::::

[NeuroFizz]

1) Consider your audience carefully. Most western fiction readers have a better than average knowledge of history. They'll bust you immediately if your book has any serious inaccuracies in it. While you don’t have to know everything about the west to write about it, your writing must be historically accurate to a large degree.
No surprise here. Writing historical fiction in any time period must have a solid base of background research.

2) Develop a solid plot that has a lot of action and adventure woven into it, but make sure it's believable. Western fiction readers read to be transported to another era. So keep in mind the constant battle for survival that most folks faced in those days. Men and women met, fell in love, got married and had families, with nary a hint of sex, against the backdrop of the dangers and constant pressures of discovering a new land. When I do have a sex scene in a book, I usually take the reader just so far . . . and then fade out. Fodder for endless stories will arise from just imagining, in this modern age, their hardships.
This advice applies to most generes of fiction if one substitutes "world" for "era" so it is not that peculiar to Western fiction. I find the part in bold (my emphasis) very peculiar (also a dang fine trick). This is a matter or personal taste and style. There are, after all, historical romances, even erotica, that would fall under the umbrella of "Western fiction."

3) Keep your dialog consistent. Most people in the 1800’s were very poorly educated, though there were exceptions, and not many of them could do much more than write their names or read small portions of the Bible. Make sure your dialog reflects this, but don’t use it to the point that it becomes hard for the reader to follow what is being said. I don’t think it matters a great deal the phonetic spellings you may use as long as you use the same spelling all the time.
There were many more educated people than this passage suggests. If one wants to limit Western fiction to cowboys only, then maybe the statement rings more true. The part in bold print (my emphasis) is horrible advice, in my opinion. Phonetic spelling of dialogue should be avoided at all costs. It's distracting, slows down the reader, and just isn't good literary practice. If the writer can't get the same effect across with properly spelled words, perhaps he/she should consider another line of work.

4) Make your main character a person who is revered. He/she should be a person of deep thought and vast knowledge, a crusader for justice and a champion of the American "way." While it is not necessary for them to be full of book-larnin', they should should be a hitchin' post of humanity, abundantly capable of rational, logical thought processes and master of his/her emotions (cowboys/girls don't cry). Brilliant, but self-taught, and from the school of hard knocks. Regardless of the character's education, he/she must be an individual of rare intelligence and the highest personal integrity. And, they must stand up to evil, with no back down in ‘em.
Sorry, but this sounds like the cookie-cutter approach to characterization. Western fiction should have characters, stories, and themes that are just as diverse as the people who lived back then. How does this carry back to the idea of extensive, accurate research if the suggestion is to make characters so stereotyped? The wants and needs of humans haven't changed that much since pigmented marks were placed on papyrus. This means the full range of human behaviors we see today have been around since back then, just placed in a different societal context.

5) Start your book with action right off the bat! Do yourself a favor. You might try a gunfight or Indian attack. I almost immediately place my primary character in a life-threatening situation -- in western fiction, a sure-fire attention grabber. To keep it, at the end of the chapter, leave the situation suspended, playing on the reader's subconscious. And just keep that action and adventure comin' throughout, you ol' rattlesnake, you!
Most genres suggest that a story start with some kind of action, so this is not unique. However, I can see an agent or editor putting a manuscript down with the comment, "Not another gunfight/Indian attack beginning..." How about being original--bringing in some really creative type of enticing beginning to a work of Western fiction. I bet it'd sell.

all pull up a high-backed chair, hang up your six-shooters, kick off them boots and tell me your tallest tale of the Old West, pardn'r! (http://)
Some solid advice here, but taken together, to me, the advice seems a good way to produce a work of formulaic, stereotypical yee-haw fiction. If you want to live in the suburbs of Western fiction, don't saddle up, just jump into that generic SUV and cruise past all of the look-alike houses on your way to your writing cubicle.

[blacbird]

Regardless, by all means read the best of things in the genre. That's something I'd recommend to anyone writing in any genre category, especially those works on which the genre got built (you listening here, aspiring fantasy novelists?). A western novel is one of the greatest American novels of the 20th Century, IMO: The Ox-Bow Incident, by Walter Van Tilburg Clark.

Others I'd recommend:

The Track of the Cat, also by Clark
Shane, by Jack Schaefer
The Dan Barry trilogy (The Untamed, The Night Horseman, The Seventh Man, by Max Brand
Riders of the Purple Sage, The Mysterious Rider, by Zane Grey
Any number of other things by Max Brand and by Zane Grey

caw.

[davids]

We always rub our manuscripts in dust and send em with miniature spurs-seems to work for us

[SeanDSchaffer]

I am of the personal opinion that this is not a spam thread at all. I honestly think that the OP is simply trying to add to the Novel Writing discussion by posting what he thinks will work. I think he's just trying to be helpful.

[badducky]

If you really want to know more about how to write Westerns, and you live in Dallas/Fort Worth, I'd advise checking out the D/FW Writer's Group.

I sat in one of their critique sessions once.

Perry Curtis Bales, a very active member, should be teaching creative writing in a university. He's the author of many westerns.

There's nothing like top-notch writing advice coming at you in one of the thickest Texas twangs you've ever heard.

*edit: got my western author names mixed up*

[NeuroFizz]

I'm probably confusing Western Fiction with Westerns in my comments in my earlier post. To me, the former is very inclusive. This softens some of what I said, but it doesn't soften all of my comments. I still caution against any cookie-cutter genre writing although it is unavoidable, to a certain degree, in some genres. I guess my hackles go up any time anyone tells me how to write my characters and how to make them talk, passing off opinions as guidelines for success.

[wrbenton]

I was simply sharing an article...and it was written as a suggestion to help NEW writers get started in the genre. It was to be used as a way to get new writers to think about the genre and then perhaps go to a keyboard and give it a try. I thought it would generate some comments, LOL, and it did.

The western can pretty much be written as you wish, as long as a publisher will pick it up and readers lay down their money. But, as I said before, I was writing of traditional westerns, with the good guys wearing white hats, bad guys with black. John Wayne comes to mind...LOL.

There are even pre-westerns, if you will, such as my mountian man books, which are not really traditional westerns at all, but of an earlier period. Although many folks put mountain men and cowboys in the same bowl.

[veinglory]

I found this interesting and it mostly rings true. Although characters can vary a little more. The western tradition gives archetypal examples of great anti-heroes who would not fit the description used here?

[soloset]

I think a better way to get started writing Westerns would be to read a bunch of them. Some of your points are common sense for most genres while others are only really applicable to a certain type of Western.

I wonder about the "fade to black" issue in particular. When I went through my Western phase (better titled "my Louis L'Amour phase") that seemed to be largely the case, but I wonder if it still holds true today with today's market.

[Jamesaritchie]

I wonder about the "fade to black" issue in particular. When I went through my Western phase (better titled "my Louis L'Amour phase") that seemed to be largely the case, but I wonder if it still holds true today with today's market.

It depends on the western. There have been lines of westerns for many years that are traditional in most ways, but have more graphic violence, and very explicit sex.

[soloset]

Interesting -- kind of like the Harlequin/Silhouette paperbacks used to be; if you picked up an Intrigue you got more action, but another line might have almost no sex and absolutely no violence.

[Jamesaritchie]

I was simply sharing an article...and it was written as a suggestion to help NEW writers get started in the genre. It was to be used as a way to get new writers to think about the genre and then perhaps go to a keyboard and give it a try. I thought it would generate some comments, LOL, and it did.

The western can pretty much be written as you wish, as long as a publisher will pick it up and readers lay down their money. But, as I said before, I was writing of traditional westerns, with the good guys wearing white hats, bad guys with black. John Wayne comes to mind...LOL.

There are even pre-westerns, if you will, such as my mountian man books, which are not really traditional westerns at all, but of an earlier period. Although many folks put mountain men and cowboys in the same bowl.

I'm not sure white hats have been in vogue for many years. Even in the John Wayne years, many, many westerns used the anti-hero. Louis L'Amour did so fairly often.

I love many of the mountain man books, particularly such classics as "The Big Sky," "The Great Adventure," and "Mountain Man." These are hostorical novels, however, and not westerns.

I wrote a few westerns to begin my career, but there just isn't much demand for traditional westerns today. Publishers are looking more for the Larry McMurty style novel.

The only part of your post I'd really quibble with is point four.

4) Make your main character a person who is revered. He/she should be a person of deep thought and vast knowledge, a crusader for justice and a champion of the American "way." While it is not necessary for them to be full of book-larnin', they should should be a hitchin' post of humanity, abundantly capable of rational, logical thought processes and master of his/her emotions (cowboys/girls don't cry). Brilliant, but self-taught, and from the school of hard knocks. Regardless of the character's education, he/she must be an individual of rare intelligence and the highest personal integrity. And, they must stand up to evil, with no back down in ‘em.

In all honesty, this advice is severely outdated. Probably thrity years or more outdated. There's still some room for the too good to be true hero in the white hat, but he needs to be portrayed as a rounded human, rather than a Dudley Do-Right. . Even Louis L'Amour started getting away from it well before he died. The good western hero today isn't a cardboard character, isn't larger than life, and is seldom a paragon of personal integrity. He's a human being with human faults. He laughs, he cries, and he hurts. And he's amost never a crusader for justice and a champion of the American way. Not many of the good western characters were ever this in novels. This is more B movie material than western novel material.

Even good and evil are seldom clear cut. More often it's a case of both sides thinking they're right, and often both sides being right, but one side has to win, and one side has to lose. Two opposing forces who often want the same thing, but only one of them can have it. Even Wyatt Earp owned a gambling house and managed some prostitutes.

[PeeDee]

The only bit of advice on that list that rang true with me was, avoid historical inaccuracies. That applies to anything that has real history behind it.

The rest of the list just sort of irked me, and now I'm going to go drink tea until I feel better.

[wrbenton]

Not all of my main characters wear white hats,

My knife moved once and I severed his right ear in a split second. He gave a scream of deep anguish, but I knew no one in Hell Town would pay any attention to his squeals, so I leaned close to him and said, “Next cut is yer nose.”

“G . . . Good God, you’ve maimed me for life!” He spat out in fear as blood ran freely down the side of his head.

“And, that might not be fer much longer, if-un ya don’t start talkin’.” I replied as I rested the edge of my knife blade on the bridge of his nose.

“Go to hell!” He all but yelled, so my knife move downward instantly, removing his nose. His appearance was ghastly with the nose gone and once more he screamed, only this scream was different, it was the sound of man not only in pain, but of one knowing he was about to die.

“P . . . Please, don’t hurt me any more, please, I’ll talk.” He pleaded as he met my eyes and I knew, right then and there, he’d tell the truth.

Once we had Lathrop talking, the man just wouldn’t shut up. He spilled he beans and more than one surprise came from his words. People I’d never suspected were suddenly involved, but the big bug was Robert Pool. I’d been right about Pool using his railroad connections to move cattle and he had the money to make sure the job was done right too. Pool employed Lathrop to rustle cattle, drive ‘em north to the nearest town on the railroad line and then ship ‘em east. Lathrop always had a man in town on his payroll buy the cattle legal like, pay for the shipping with Pool’s money, and everything looked legitimate on paper.

[nevada]

To cut off someone's nose with a knife, you'd have to do a fair bit of sawing, what with all the cartilage you'd have to get through. A serated knife would probably be a little better. But still, you'd be sawing.

Personally, I think it reads like a stereotype Western and only emphasis why I dont read Westerns. Ever.

[PeeDee]

I'm afraid I agree with nevada. That passage has problems in it, and I don't mean western-specific problems, but basic storytelling problems.

When westerns are handled sensibly, they're a delight to read. Imagine if Terry Pratchett brought his writing style to a western? George R. R. Martin? Imagine reading a book that's written like it's a fantasy novel....except it's a western.

That would be a good read.

Stephen King's "The Gunslinger," only qualifies as a western in bits and pieces (you know, the bits before it gets surreal and turns into The Dark Tower Series) but that book is read by many people, very few of which are probably western-specific fans. The reason is that they're written by Stephen King, who is not a "western writer," and thus writes a very open and comfortable story which is just sheer story that happens to be set in a western setting.

[Silver King]

When the character's nose is removed, I'm wondering whether the wound would affect his speech. In the excerpt, he seems to speak normally immediately afterwards. But wouldn't he be trying to breathe nasally through his own blood? I'm thinking he might be rendered speechless, or at least choking on the fluid.

Where's DrSpork when we need him?

[gp101]

WRBenton, thanks for sharing the tips. I don't write or read Westerns, mainly because I haven't seen any displayed as a must-read (though I don't browse as often as I should), and because my favorite writers don't write Westerns. That said, there are some Western movies I adore, especially Spaghetti Westerns, and I admire the genre.

Neil D Hicks wrote a great how2 for action-adventure stories (called "Writing the Action Adventure Film" strangely enough), mainly giving some pointers and highlighting the conventions of the genre. He claims the Western is the genesis for action-adventure stories; the main story points and nuances passing from Westerns to gangster (not gangsta') stories, to urban cop (film noir in the theatres) to present day action adventure. He calls the ACTION-ADVENTURE the "most honest film, revolving around the morality between good and evil". He went on to say that the MC has a personal code of honor and is willing to die for them, in pursuit of the antagonist who is morally different, and represents a clear and present danger to the community. It ends in a siege pitting good versus evil, in other words, a showdown.

This may sound formulaic, but it's really a blueprint to be played with; it may also sound familiar with many other genres or subgenres, but I think Hicks may be right that it all descends from Westerns (now, where Westerns descend from, I dunno), and are currently explicit in action-adventure. Granted, Hicks was talking about screenplays, not novels, I think a lot of the story principles may hold true for novels.

So, WRB, I found your comments closer to truth than most of the other posters because you do say you were talking about "traditional" Westerns, and all the bits you posted definitley ring of "Bonanza". I do wonder with the question that traditional Westerns might be a hard sell, and some of your suggestions might lead a first-time writer to produce the obvious, or done-to-hell type of Western. In the hands of a veteran writer, I can see those same Western conventions being used, but in different ways, so that they feel familiar to fans, but are different enough to give them a different experience. But in the hands of most of us newbies, armed with your suggestions, we'd be basically writing the same kernal of a story, or at least one that's been done before gazillions of times.

Personally, I think I'd prefer to read a Western (if I was in the mood for one) plotted like the Clint E. Spaghetti Westerns that displayed anti-heroes, or at least MC's with very questionable moral backgrounds. I also find the bluntness of "Deadwood" to be more in line with those times. Whorehouses, from what I've read, were fairly common and cowboys had their fun before saddling for good with one woman. Again, these are film and TV examples, but that's what I would like to read in a Western. Of course, that's just my taste, so I can appreciate your efforts to help those writing more traditional stuff. Just thought I'd chime in to let those traditionalists know they're sort of writing a current action-adventure, just set in the West with cowboys.

[ChaosTitan]

I enjoy Western TV series and films, but have only ever read one Western novel. Unwanted: Dead or Alive, by Gene Shelton. The reason I picked it up from the bookstore was the title. Two cattles hands set up to look like thieving criminals, but neither one of them is any good at crime (they can't even shoot straight). I read it years ago, but it was funny and a quick read.

A unique spin on an old theme got a non-fan (me) to read a book I don't normally pick up. ;)

[Jamesaritchie]

Not all of my main characters wear white hats,

My knife moved once and I severed his right ear in a split second. He gave a scream of deep anguish, but I knew no one in Hell Town would pay any attention to his squeals, so I leaned close to him and said, “Next cut is yer nose.”

“G . . . Good God, you’ve maimed me for life!” He spat out in fear as blood ran freely down the side of his head.

“And, that might not be fer much longer, if-un ya don’t start talkin’.” I replied as I rested the edge of my knife blade on the bridge of his nose.

“Go to hell!” He all but yelled, so my knife move downward instantly, removing his nose. His appearance was ghastly with the nose gone and once more he screamed, only this scream was different, it was the sound of man not only in pain, but of one knowing he was about to die.

“P . . . Please, don’t hurt me any more, please, I’ll talk.” He pleaded as he met my eyes and I knew, right then and there, he’d tell the truth.

Once we had Lathrop talking, the man just wouldn’t shut up. He spilled he beans and more than one surprise came from his words. People I’d never suspected were suddenly involved, but the big bug was Robert Pool. I’d been right about Pool using his railroad connections to move cattle and he had the money to make sure the job was done right too. Pool employed Lathrop to rustle cattle, drive ‘em north to the nearest town on the railroad line and then ship ‘em east. Lathrop always had a man in town on his payroll buy the cattle legal like, pay for the shipping with Pool’s money, and everything looked legitimate on paper.


This is all that's wrong with far too many novels.

[Sassenach]

This thread belongs in self-promotion...

[Alien Enigma]

This is all that's wrong with far too many novels. This quote is why so many people sterotype authors as snobs.

[NeuroFizz]

This quote is why so many people sterotype authors as snobs.
No, I think the following is what James was talking about:

My knife moved once and I severed his right ear in a split second. [He gave a scream of deep anguish], but I knew no one in Hell Town would pay any attention to his {squeals}, so I leaned close to him and said, “Next cut is yer* nose.”

Square brackets – “gave a scream” is passive. He screamed is sufficient. How does one differentiate a scream from one of deep anguish? The sentence is a little on the purple side. Curly brackets – his singular scream is now pleural, and is now squealing. Asterisk – phonetic spelling adds absolutely nothing to this entire passage.

“[G . . . Good God, you’ve maimed me for life!]” He spat out in fear as blood ran freely down the side of his head.
Unrealistic dialogue. If these are cowboy types, the author can’t have them talk phonetic redneck in one sentence and overly formal English in another. Besides, I can’t imagine anyone actually saying something like this after having an ear sliced off. Also, punctuation is incorrect between the dialogue quote and the attribution here, and in most dialogue lines below. Next, one doesn’t spit dialogue. Try spitting and talking at the same time. It’s hard. Finally, the unrealistic dialogue contradicts the “in fear” tag. You’ve maimed me for life does not reflect fear—it comes off more as annoyance, which is why it seems so unrealistic.

“And, that might not be fer much longer, if-un ya don’t start talkin’.” I replied as I rested the edge of my knife blade on the bridge of his nose.
Phonetic dialogue is very distracting here, and totally unneeded. Improper punctuation between dialogue and attribution again.

“Go to hell!” He [all but yelled], so my {knife move downward instantly, removing his nose}. His appearance was ghastly with the nose gone and once more he screamed, only this scream was different, it was the sound of man not only in pain, but of one knowing he was about to die.
Straight brackets – how does one all but yell? Does it mean he did everything but yell? So he must have whispered, muttered, babbled, chuckled… Curly brackets – someone else mentioned the difficulty of cutting off a nose—sawing action would be required to get through the cartilage. In the last sentence, and above, we get the impression the POV character is very adept at interpreting screams and their meanings. Finally, I would think the poor fellow would have come to the conclusion he was in deep doo-doo back when he lost his ear.

“P . . . Please, don’t hurt me any more, please, I’ll talk.” He pleaded as [he met my eyes] and I knew, right then and there, he’d tell the truth.
Brackets – one of those weird-meaning clichés suitable for another thread here in Writing Fiction. Pleased to meet you, eyes.

Once we had Lathrop talking, the man just wouldn’t shut up. [He spilled he beans] and more than one surprise came from his words. {People I’d never suspected were suddenly involved, but the big bug was Robert Pool. I’d been right about Pool using his railroad connections to move cattle and he had the money to make sure the job was done right too. Pool employed Lathrop to rustle cattle, drive ‘em north to the nearest town on the railroad line and then ship ‘em east. Lathrop always had a man in town on his payroll buy the cattle legal like, pay for the shipping with Pool’s money, and everything looked legitimate on paper.}
Straight brackets – cliché and redundant—just mentioned he wouldn’t stop talking. Curly brackets – telling info dump.

[PeeDee]

This quote is why so many people sterotype authors as snobs.

I don't follow. How does that quote explain why so many people think authors are snobs? Who are these people? What about it was snobbish?

If it's bad writing, am I required to say that it's good writing, lest I be deemed a snob?

I would rather someone tell me, "Dude; this blows goats," on a message board than to have sent out bad writing, gotten it published, and then found out that that there thing which-un I wrot-em stinks, kimosabe. This is the best place to find a stinker in your writing, because it can be worked on.

[PattiTheWicked]

I loved Lonesome Dove, and I'm not sure that McMurtry followed a single one of the helpful hints in this thread's original post.

I think a lot of people who try to write westerns do so because they think they can get away with a lot more. It's the "well, I'm just writing fer a buncha cowboys" mentality. Unfortunately, most of the so-called western novels I've seen in the book stores are just the same old stereotypes rehashed over and over again.

I don't want a hero in a white hat and a schoolmarm who pines for him. I want flawed people like Gus McCrae and Lorena Wood, because they're far more real.

[PeeDee]

Larry McNurty is a wonderful writer. A hopeful western writer should look to him, and to Elmore Leonard (the master of dialogue) before they should look to that list in this thread.

Oop, sorry. I'm being snobbish. Oh dear. I'd better go drink tea and quietly whisper to myself, "There are no poor people, there are no poor people, there are no poor people...."

(oh, wait, now I'm being a smartass; gawd, I'm confusing)