And she's an ENGLISH teacher?!

[Project nachonaco]

So I gave the first five pages of my manuscript for my English teacher to read.

I got it today, and every punctuation, where I'd finished a sentence (even with a question) got a ',' marking instead of '.' or '?'....

GAH!

[zarch]

I'm confused. So she just went through your manuscript with a red pen and changed all end punctuation to commas?

[Project nachonaco]

Pretty much all of it.

Like one example:

"Do you want to move on?" my version....

to

"Do you want to move on," to her version.

[soloset]

That makes no sense. ALL of it? Dialogue I could see, but... just like:

Bleh blah blah. Bleh bleh? Blah Blah! "Blah," she said.

to

Bleh blah blah, Bleh bleh, Blah Blah, "Blah," she said,

That makes my brain hurt.

[Carrie in PA]

:Wha: :crazy: That's just wrong. She sounds like a commaholic.

I'd smile and say thanks... then never give her any more pages to read.

[beezle]

What do you expect. She's an English teacher.

[rugcat]

Are you talking about dialogue?

"I thought you'd say that," she said. As opposed to:

"I thought you'd say that." she said. Or

"I thought you'd say that." She said.

[emeraldcite]

What do you expect. She's an English teacher.

Hey, watch it buster.

Yeah, do you have any examples of the kinds of things she changed?

Also, a good English teacher won't always make a good writing teacher.

Writing fiction is a different monster than writing papers. Also, just because they like literature and can discuss literature doesn't mean they can teach creative writing.

ETA: You'd be surprised how much "English" an English education major actually has to take for their degree...

[Jack_Roberts]

I'll always be greatful to Jeff, the English teacher who looked at my novel. He pointed out lots of things that I missed.

But he also told me to change some things I shouldn't had. Some things, like stressed words should be italic instead of caps (they are really supposed to be underlined) caused me to painfully go through and correct his suggested changes.

Still, all in all, he did a good job.

Sorry you had a problem with yours.

[Medievalist]

She's probably confusing the usual punctuation of a quotation in an academic context, that is, non dialog, with proper punctuation for dialog.

Teachers are not taught how to do critiques of fiction; heck, most K-12 teachers aren't even really taught how to respond to writing at a level other than grammar and spelling.

Training teachers to respond to writing is getting better, but there are still scads of people with Ph.D.s entering classrooms at colleges who have never ever taught before, never mind the fact that k-12 are not really taught to teach "creative" writing.

[Birol]

With respect to emeraldcite, K-12 English classroom instruction is geared more toward formal writing, such as you would find in a business or academic environment. Thus, if you have a skilled English teacher, this is their area of expertise. Creative writing, although related, is not the same.

[fjeastman]

I've taught English before. At the college level, even.

The only thing I can think of that she would be changing would be dialog.

Unless you have a convoluted personal style that includes tons and tons of fragments that she was suggesting you combine into full sentences.

For my part, my own program stressed a concentration on voice, language, and audience/author relationships as opposed to gramatical conventions (which are always in a state of change).

Unless she was crazy, what she changed in your MS most likely made it fall more in line with Standard American English than not ... even if you or others feel it didn't make a literary improvement.

--fje

[zarch]

I teach high school English and college writing, folks, and I can't stand it when people on these boards make generalizations about English teachers.

"What do you expect? She's an English teacher."

WHAT????????

[johnnysannie]

In the last couple of years, several of my children's teachers have asked me to present a session on creative writing to their class to help the students improve overall writing skills. In our state, writing ability is now part of the state wide assessment tests but the teachers were willing to admit that creative writing was outside their knowledge base.

[Christine N.]

That's silly. My eighth grade English teacher went over every rule of writing, including dialogue. I think one of my textbooks was Strunk and White, for cripes' sake. I mean more like grammar, not creative writing rules, but I would think an English teacher knows where the comma goes between a dialogue and tag.

Wait a minute. The 8th grade English class I subbed for last year covered this very thing! We were reviewing for the final exam and I remember very distinctly going over commas between the end of dialogue and what they called the 'speaker tag'.
So where did THIS teacher go to school? Or did she just not read the course guide? Just not understanding, is all. Does she teach a grade lower than 8th?

Maybe there's no school like the old school. Sigh. Hey, go out and get your teacher a copy of Eats, Shoots and Leaves as a present. Great book. Or just get a copy for yourself and that way you won't have to ask her again. LOL.

This speaks rather poorly, not of the educational system, because I know it's being taught in some places, but of her as a teacher. The best teachers say "I don't know, but I'll find out."

[zarch]

Exactly, Christine. This specific example (the OP's post) is commentary on her English teacher's goofballness. The high school where I teach sports a literary magazine and several English teachers who are creative writers/poets.

In fact, I wonder if there was a misunderstanding between the OP and her teacher. I mean, surely all English teachers know how to use end punctuation.

[fjeastman]

That's what several people have suggested, I think we're waiting on the OP to post up some fully contextualized examples.

As a poor college student, on more than one occasion I've had the bank tell me: "You've got no money, pal."

And I've said, "Yer crazy, toots. Crazy. Absolutely bonkers and looney-toons. Lemmie see that there register, eh?"

And then, in the final accounting, found out they were right. Broke. Again.

>.<

;)

--fje

[skylarburris]

This has nothing to do with creative writing. English teachers should know how to use punctuation. I'd love to see some examples of specific sentences she changed. But I do know it is no longer fashionable to teach grammar in school, so I wouldn't be shocked if an English teacher had grammar problems.

[PeeDee]

English teachers are on my list, right next to librarians. Way at the top of the list. I adore them all. Here are some of the last bastions of civilization, and considering everything is an uphill battle for them (for the good ones) I am proud when they accomplish anything.

That said, like emeraldcite said, just because she's an English teacher doesn't mean she knows the first thing about writing a story, or how the mechanics of a story work.

An eye doctor is still a doctor, but I wouldn't trust him to get inside my brain. So please, don't say "just an English teacher," go talk to her and find out why she replaced the commas. Talk to her. Have opinions, for god's sake have reasons behind them. Talk, debate (politely, please) and find out that your English teacher is probably a wonderful person, very intelligent, doing the best she can.

Even if she can't punctuate your dialogue correctly (Neither, I should point out, can seventy percent of young writers) (neither, I should point out in honesty, can I some of the time) I bet there's still a lot of stuff she can teach you.

That said, remember when her opinions start going to different places than what you know about writing, consider them and consider them carefully, but do remember that optomotrist ain't neurosurgeon.

[Shadow_Ferret]

I find the attacks on English teachers rather amusing since many of us probably wouldn't be where we are today if it weren't for an English teacher somewhere in our past who somehow nurtured us.

And second, I don't think we can really speculate much further on this whole subject until the OP gives us some full examples, not exerpts, of the corrections in question.

[PeeDee]

And second, I don't think we can really speculate much further on this whole subject until the OP gives us some full examples, not exerpts, of the corrections in question.

Of course we can. We always do. When have any of us let facts and lack of information stop us from talking about something? ;)

[PattiTheWicked]

In high school, their job is to teach you effective communication skills -- speaking like someone with half a brain, writing a letter that includes absolutely no l33tspeek at all, and how to critically think about what you read. Regardless, though, any English teacher should know the proper use of a comma, so I'd love to see some specific Before and After examples of what was changed.

That being said, some of my favorite instructors in high school and college were English teachers. Only ONE actually taught me anything about creative writing, though, and I still have my papers with his grades and comments on them.

So, Dr. Robert Clarke, if you're out there, thank you for everything you taught me.

[Birol]

I find the attacks on English teachers rather amusing since many of us probably wouldn't be where we are today if it weren't for an English teacher somewhere in our past who somehow nurtured us.

I only see one person who has said anything that might be constituted as outright dismissal of English teachers' abilities.

As for nurturing us, I'm certain there's at least one English teacher who would like to take the credit for my love of the English language, but they would be wrong. My love of words and the stories they form came from home.

[Shadow_Ferret]

Of course we can. We always do. When have any of us let facts and lack of information stop us from talking about something? ;)

No, we can't, but we will, and that's a different thing altogether. :tongue

As for nurturing us, I'm certain there's at least one English teacher who would like to take the credit for my love of the English language, but they would be wrong. My love of words and the stories they form came from home.
Maybe nurturing was the wrong word, mentoring or at the very least, teaching us HOW to write. I don't know about the rest of you, but I did have several creative writing and composition classes through high school that started me down this desperate path.

[Christine N.]

I'm not criticizing English teachers. My mother was and English teachers, I LOVED my English teachers. I'm with PD and I love librarians too, my aunt is a middle school librarian.

I'm criticizing this particular English teacher, and I'm even reserving judgment until I see what she actually changed.

I know what's being taught, at least in my own neck of the woods, and this IS part of the curriculum. I know what was taught when I was in school, and this was certainly part of it.

Now we need to see the offending changes to make a final decision. :) The one example that she did give was certainly way off base, because you do use a question mark at the end of a question, even in dialogue with a speaker tag.

[PeeDee]

If the dialogue change was something like:

"I don't see what this has to do with anything." She said.
(changed to:)
"I don't see what this has to do with anything," she said.

Then the English teacher was doing just fine.

I dunno. I think I'll comfortably rule in the favor of the English teacher for most things, until proven otherwise. That said, when I do show my stories to English teachers (which I have done, with several) I never show it to them for grammar, punctuation, or any of the mechnical stuff. I show it to them for their reader's opinion, because when they return their opinion, I bet it'll be pretty lucid and useful.

But I don't ask them for mechnical help for the same reason I turn off all of Microsoft Word's various squiggly-lined tools for making me write gooder: mostly, the program (and the English teacher) doesn't know quite what I'm writing, or quite how I wrote it. Fiction, by its nature, needs to be a little more fluid.

(although that should never be used to excuse sloppy grammar, spelling, or punctuation; otherwise, I am charged by God to hit you with a big stick.)

[Shadow_Ferret]

I know what's being taught, at least in my own neck of the woods, and this IS part of the curriculum. I know what was taught when I was in school, and this was certainly part of it.


They are teaching Hypercommanology?

[PeeDee]

They are teaching Hypercommanology?

Th,at is, fa,n,ta,stic, that ,they,fina,lly,ack,ow,ledge,it,proper,ly, , as, ,a, s,u,b,j,e,ct,!,

[expatbrat]

Not sure about the rest of the world - but in Australia you can get 46% in your HSC and get into university to become a teacher. Hence you can fail high school and then go on a teach it!

Until our society places a higher value on the people teaching our next generation, and gives them an excellent salary to attract the best people, you are going to keep seeing drop outs leading our leaders of tomorrow.

Sad... Sad and so silly.

[Christine N.]

No, silly, they are teaching grammar and proper comma usage. Sorry I wasn't more clear.

[Shadow_Ferret]

... HSC ...

Home Shopping Club? :)

[expatbrat]

High School Certificate... don't you guys get neighbours?

[PeeDee]

High School Certificate... don't you guys get neighbours?

I don't get anybody, least of all my neighbors.

[expatbrat]

Shakes head... Shouldn't you Americans all be in bed and all the Brits (who love neighbours) be on line?

[beezle]

Hence my somewhat bitter comment. My semi-rural Australian education was very substandard. I only realised how bad it was when I got out of the place. There were some good teachers, sure. And some not so good. And some who were only there because a city school would never let them through the gates.

I managed to get through high school with only the most basic grasp of grammar and punctuation.

[expatbrat]

My school spent one day (ok, one English period) on grammer. One!

We need better people in our schools. Until we pay teachers more and attact better people into the schools we are going to keep getting these people who are just there for the holidays.

[Shadow_Ferret]

High School Certificate... don't you guys get neighbours?

Get neighbours? I don't even get what that means.

[beezle]

We had a schizophrenic maths teacher who thought maths was evil, and it was his destiny to save the children from it. Instead of teaching, he would take his classes outside to meditate, while he sat in a tree. This went on for months.

I'm serious.

Eventually, when they did fire him, and his wife left him, and he lost his home, he started living under that tree.

[expatbrat]

We had a schizophrenic maths teacher who thought maths was evil, and it was his destiny to save the children from it. Instead of teaching, he would take his classes outside to meditate, while he sat in a tree. This went on for months.
.

Why am I laughing when I should be crying? That is too funny.

[Birol]

Shakes head... Shouldn't you Americans all be in bed and all the Brits (who love neighbours) be on line?

Nope. This is that wonderful time of day when both sides of the pond are awake. It's morning in North America and evening in Britain.

[Jonny Nexus]

High School Certificate... don't you guys get neighbours?
Get neighbours? I don't even get what that means.
I can't believe that my first ever post to this forum is to do nitpick grammar (especially given that I have history in this area (http://www.criticalmiss.com/issue10/GrammarFascist1.html)), but I think the original statement would have been clearer if it had been written thus:

"High School Certificate... don't you guys get Neighbours?"

i.e. As a reference to a proper noun, said proper noun being the popular Australian TV soap opera Neighbours (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighbours).

I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming. :)

[Christine N.]

Oh, ok, now I understand. I was also confused and thought perhaps I didn't understand my neighbors, when a) Australia isn't exactly a neighbor and b) my actual neighbors have lived here for many decades, and I certainly understand them.

[expatbrat]

Ooops, my bad. Sorry for the n when a N would have made it all clear (I blame my rubbish English teachers).

And sorry for the "shouldn't you be in bed comment," didn't notice it was this late (11pm in Thailand) seems it should be me, the incorrect-usage-of-the-shift-key bandit, who should be in slumber.

Welcome Jonny.

[Eric Summers]

Oh, ok, now I understand. I was also confused and thought perhaps I didn't understand my neighbors, when a) Australia isn't exactly a neighbor and b) my actual neighbors have lived here for many decades, and I certainly understand them.

My neighbors move into the wife's mom's house every winter cause they can't afford to heat their home. They return home every summer to breed.

[Shadow_Ferret]

Oh! A TV soap. Neighbors. Of course.

Never heard of it. :)

I too thought he meant my neighbors, like Canada or Mexico or something.

And we just moved into our home a year ago and no, I don't get my neighbors at all. Busybodies.

[Imelda]

'Neighbours' rules.

English teachers, in the main, do not. I had a great teacher for one year, fully versed in all types of writing, creative or otherwise.

:Soapbox: The two I had afterwards made me hate writing so much that I did none till I'd left school. One was incredibly thick (when she decided to come to class, that is). She said I had a poor vocabulary, and yet SHE didn't know what 'suffice' meant. There were many other incidents with her that I've shuttered from my memory.

The next one just hated anyone with two X chromosomes and marked everything I did as wrong. In my experience, English teachers are moulded to knock the creativity out of students until they can write formulaic essays that express no opinions but those that are 'approved' on the National Curriculum.

As for teaching grammar ... I didn't even know what an adjective was till my French teacher explained it. And how to format dialogue wasn't exactly a major concern for them.

Rant over :D

[Zolah]

English teachers, in the main, do not. I had a great teacher for one year, fully versed in all types of writing, creative or otherwise.

:Soapbox: The two I had afterwards made me hate writing so much that I did none till I'd left school. One was incredibly thick (when she decided to come to class, that is). She said I had a poor vocabulary, and yet SHE didn't know what 'suffice' meant. There were many other incidents with her that I've shuttered from my memory.

The next one just hated anyone with two X chromosomes and marked everything I did as wrong. In my experience, English teachers are moulded to knock the creativity out of students until they can write formulaic essays that express no opinions but those that are 'approved' on the National Curriculum.

As for teaching grammar ... I didn't even know what an adjective was till my French teacher explained it. And how to format dialogue wasn't exactly a major concern for them.

Rant over :D

That's my experience too. I had one English teacher who was a nice guy and who clearly wanted to do a good job, but when he realised that I could use speech marks, understood the difference between a noun and a verb, and could spell, he said 'There's really no more I can teach you'. I learned those things, I hasten to add, not from other teachers, but from my parents. He used to give the rest of the class work to do and I'd sit at the back of the room and read a book. And this was in secondary school (I was about 13 or 14 I think). The only time I was required to pay attention was when we were reading something (like Romeo and Juliet) when he'd pull me out to read the female part while he did the male one. That was because I was the only student who could get through a sentence without stopping to sound out the words. I feel really bad for those other kids in class, who didn't have parents like mine. I feel bad for myself too - I know my own knowledge of the rules of English are sketchy because I never did any advanced work in school. I'd love to understand what a pluperfect is, for instance. Instead when I write I have to guess, go by instinct, or run for a book and try to work it out from there.

[Silver King]

Maybe English teachers shouldn't be knocked around too much in this thread, but they shouldn't be aggrandized, either. It's like any other profession: Some are good at what they do while others fair poorly.

[zarch]

I can't figure the slope of a line if my kids' lives depended on it. Damn you, Mrs. Fleetwood!

Look, I sure hope you folks' experiences in English classrooms have been anomolies. I had nothing but productive years where English is concerned (duh; I'm an English teacher). In fact, I have taught with three of my four high school English teachers. If an English teacher really doesn't know what the word "suffice" means, or s/he doesn't have the drive to teach kids beyond the eight parts of speech...well, then yeah, that's crap.

By the way: OP, where are you???

[Sheryl Nantus]

I wouldn't be so hard on an English teacher.

Just wait until a professional editor gets ahold of your manuscript.

:D

[ColoradoGuy]

They are teaching Hypercommanology?
My favorite Haskins post (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=542046&highlight=time#post542046) of all time. I miss the guy.

[janetbellinger]

So I gave the first five pages of my manuscript for my English teacher to read.

I got it today, and every punctuation, where I'd finished a sentence (even with a question) got a ',' marking instead of '.' or '?'....

GAH!



Never let an English teacher withing one hundred miles of your novel. English classes and English teachers are death to your novel.

[Project nachonaco]

I was just letting her read it, actually. :)

[emeraldcite]

Never let an English teacher withing one hundred miles of your novel. English classes and English teachers are death to your novel.

I think it comes down to a case by case basis. I know that if a student brought me their novel, I don't think I would be "death" for it.

I'm pretty sure that I could give them some pretty decent advice.

Like I said: case by case basis.

You might be surprised how many authors have been English teachers in their lives, among them two of my favorites: Stephen King and Jack McDevitt.

Imagine being the student trying their hand at their first novel and getting advice from a young Stpehen King. How cool would that be?

Obviously if the advice seems like a bad idea, don't change it. They'll never know. But they may suggest something good here and there.

[Silver King]

I was just letting her read it, actually. :)
Can you provide further insights into the corrections she made? There's been some questions and conjecture as to how your work was graded. It would be great if you could elaborate and post additional examples.

Thanks.

[Project nachonaco]

One thing I can think of is, and this most glaring...

"Excuse me?"

She changed it to

"Excuse me,"

when those two words were the only words of speech in the paragraph.

[emeraldcite]

One thing I can think of is, and this most glaring...

"Excuse me?"

She changed it to

"Excuse me,"

when those two words were the only words of speech in the paragraph.

So "excuse me" wasn't followed by any text or tag? So the end punctuation was changed to a comma?

That would be strange unless she was changing it to something like:

"Excuse me," she said.

[Silver King]

One thing I can think of is, and this most glaring...

"Excuse me?"

She changed it to

"Excuse me,"

when those two words were the only words of speech in the paragraph.
Oh, well she's wrong. The question mark is correct.

I'm not sure how far I'd stress the point, but you may want to ask her, in this case, when does the sentence end after the comma?

[Mod35tBabe]

I was only good at spelling/grammar because my mother would stand over my shoulder and nitpick at my writing. She was astounded when I brought home work in year one, all the words spelt wrong. she asked my teacher why I wasn't taught how to spell properly and the teacher said "Imaginative spelling, it allows the child to sound out the word and figure out how to spell it on their own." Mum thought that was stupid and just taught me how to spell herself - and Ive gotten into the top Englsh classes from year 6 onwards pretty much because I could spell and had decent grammar. A boy in my advanced english class couldn't spell beautiful, and mum and I used to read over their work and laugh at the bad spelling because they thought I wasn't good enough to be in their cliquey little class.
I had fairly good teachers in high school for English - but I don't know how keen I would've been to show them my work.

[soloset]

Oh, well she's wrong. The question mark is correct.

I'm not sure how far I'd stress the point, but you may want to ask her, in this case, when does the sentence end after the comma?

I think it could go either way, as long as there's a tag and depending on the context.

"Excuse me," she said, trying not to step on his foot again.
"Excuse me?" she said, obviously hard of hearing.

Really can't tell without more examples, though, or knowing if there were any tags involved.

[James D. Macdonald]

Oh, well she's wrong. The question mark is correct.

I'm not sure how far I'd stress the point, but you may want to ask her, in this case, when does the sentence end after the comma?

I'm not ready to go that far yet.

Can we see the entire paragraph, before and after?

[Jonny Nexus]

The two I had afterwards made me hate writing so much that I did none till I'd left school.
I had a similar experience.

I once (this would have been around 1983, just before everyone suddenly started getting concerned about green issues) wrote a science fiction story for my English class which was set in a future after the Ozone Layer had been destroyed by aerosols. I can't remember the exact plot, but basically everyone lived underground, except for scavaging raids "topside", during which they completely covered themselves in scraps of fabric.

Her comment upon reading it?

"This is stupid. Why can't you write about something that might actually happen."

Basically, I was about two years too soon. A few years later my position would have been "terribly right-on" instead of "stupid science fiction geek".

She would also regularly berate me with, "If you have to read science fiction, why can't you read some decent science fiction, like Jules Verne or H.G. Wells?"

i.e. Stuff old enough that she was now prepared to treat it as literary fiction. (Clearly, my 40 year old Isaac Asimov Foundation stories weren't yet old enough). :)

Anyhow, by the end of my two-year O'Level English course (ages 14-16) my confidence in my fiction writing abilities was so low that in the essay writing part of the O'Level exam, I chose a non-fiction topic, and got a grade B. I've often wondered if I might have got an A if I'd written some fiction.

[Joanna_S]

My high school English teacher was one of the toughest teachers in the school. I learned so much from him. In fact, I found college English to be quite substandard compared to what I'd been learning in high school. It was a real let-down.

That HS teacher and a 7th grade English teacher were my two most influential teachers -- both encouraged me to be a writer. They were so steadfast in their belief in me that I've carried it with me to this day. For those of you who do teach, know that you can have a profound effect on your students' lives for long after graduation. I raise a glass to you all.

-- Joanna

[JumpingJack]

Maybe this teacher just had a bad day, and wasn't paying attention.

[Shadow_Ferret]

I once (this would have been around 1983, just before everyone suddenly started getting concerned about green issues) ...

I dispute this. Earth Day in the United States began in 1970 along with the Clean Air Act. International Earth Day started sometime around then also. The first conception of Earth Day was started in the Kennedy Administration. People have been concerned about green issues for many decades.

Heck, Arbor Day was started in 1872.

I'm not ready to go that far yet.



Can we see the entire paragraph, before and after?


Ditto.

[Project nachonaco]

Sure.

Sorry I've been dodging it, it's in my backpack and I don't want my parents seeing it. :D

[Jonny Nexus]

I dispute this. Earth Day in the United States began in 1970 along with the Clean Air Act. International Earth Day started sometime around then also. The first conception of Earth Day was started in the Kennedy Administration. People have been concerned about green issues for many decades.
Sorry, maybe I was being both fast and loose and paraochial.

In the UK, while people were vaguely aware of green issues, it was for many years regarded as pretty much a "whacko fringe" thing. It certainly wasn't something that would be discussed in schools.

Then at the some point in the mid-eighties, there was one of those periods where the country suddenly goes into mass-panic about some sort of issue, with the papers endlessly stirring things up, and politicians all queuing up to jump on the bandwagon.

(We had such a situation in the UK last summer, over the issue of the quality of food in the meals that children get served at school).

Anyhow, that happened with the environment (and specifically the Ozone Layer, CFCs, and aerosols) at some point in the mid-80s, with even Margaret Thatcher (who was very much not a member of the hippy tendency) making a speach about the importance of protecting against the environment.

That was what I was refering to. Apologies for not explaining myself properly.

[skylarburris]

I'm not ready to go that far yet.

Can we see the entire paragraph, before and after?

I would like to see more, too, because it is very hard to believe an English teacher could possibly be this incompetent. And yet, when they are teaching things like "inventive spelling," one must wonder...

But I don't think "inventive spelling" ever caught on in the U.S. I think they tried it out in California for 1-2 years. I was certainly never subjected to it. Yet, during most of my school years, it was considered horrific for an English teacher to teach grammar---gasp---"in isolation." You only received grammar lessons if you had a renegade grammar teacher, who was bucking the system, which I did in 7th grade. Thank God she made us diagram sentences until our knuckles bled.

I didn't receive another grammar lesson (except from my parents, an editor and one of those "renegade" English teachers) until my first year of college, when a very alarmed, older English professor, after grading our first set of papers, exclaimed in class, "Don't they teach you grammar in high school anymore?" I think the blank stares told him, "No, as a matter of fact, they do not." He then scrapped the literature lecture and taught grammar for an hour.

The mass of teachers are not incompetent—I had many wonderful teachers--but the incompetent ones do exist, and it is hard to get rid of them.

[skylarburris]

Then at the some point in the mid-eighties, there was one of those periods where the country suddenly goes into mass-panic about some sort of issue, with the papers endlessly stirring things up, and politicians all queuing up to jump on the bandwagon.

Environmental issues didn't start becoming central in textbooks in the U.S. until the mid-80's either. Certainly there were activists and progress made well before then, but it wasn't really a "fashionable" cause or subject for high school indoctrination prior to the mid-80's, at least not where I'm from. Arbor day was about the closest thing to an environmental frenzy we had in the 70's, where we planted trees and collectively recited that inane poem "I think that I shall never see...". We didn't observe earth day in school until the mid-80's.

[Imelda]

Imagine being the student trying their hand at their first novel and getting advice from a young Stpehen King. How cool would that be?


Cool, yes. Useful? Maybe not. After all, King was still learning when he was teaching.

And BTW, I'm not saying all English teachers are terrible (although in the three schools I've attended, the ratio of good teachers to bad ones has been about 2:35). I think much of it is down to the governmental guidelines that are set in place about what/how kids are taught, and how the curriculums seem to be set to drain enjoyment out of literature.

Zolah -- You do have the consolation of being right!

[Flapdoodle]

I find the attacks on English teachers rather amusing since many of us probably wouldn't be where we are today if it weren't for an English teacher somewhere in our past who somehow nurtured us.

And second, I don't think we can really speculate much further on this whole subject until the OP gives us some full examples, not exerpts, of the corrections in question.

I managed to get a top grade in English "O" level (Old exam you did at 16) in the UK without knowing a single piece of grammar. When I came to write short stories, I had to pretty much teach myself how to use an apostrophe. We did spelling. There and their. And that's about it.

I had one English teacher who told me to send stories off to publishers, but the rest were absolutely useless. I got marked down for having scruffy handwriting, but not for bad grammar.

[Carrie in PA]

The two I had afterwards made me hate writing so much that I did none till I'd left school. One was incredibly thick (when she decided to come to class, that is). She said I had a poor vocabulary, and yet SHE didn't know what 'suffice' meant. There were many other incidents with her that I've shuttered from my memory.

The next one just hated anyone with two X chromosomes and marked everything I did as wrong.

I had an English teacher who had us write a short story. When she handed mine back, she was smirking and said, "I hope you don't ever plan on writing stories for a living." She gave me a D - and the only red marks on the page were for "style" issues. I still loathe her.

My senior year, I had an amazing English teacher who read my novel-in-progress. She was perfect. Balanced criticism with compliments, just awesome.

As in all things, there are good and there are bad.

[skylarburris]

I had very few "bad" English teachers. Most were excellent at teaching us to read, understand, and enjoy literature. Only one bothered to teach grammar, however. It is considered "wrong" by many educators to teach grammar "in isolation." That is--don't learn your times tables in 3rd grade with flashcards: learn them while you're doing algebra. The one teacher who really taught me grammar well, "in isolation," was acting outside the curriculum, and any grammar I learned after that, I learned from my parents, not my teachers.

I had a good public school education for the most part. I escaped most of the educational fads. Our schools sometimes seem to serve as experimental labratories for educational theories, to the detriment of the students. My mom taught English for 31 years, and she said that after two to three years of the latest educational fad, which almost always failed, there was usually a swing back to "traditional" methods of education for 1-2 years until another fad was enacted. (She always taught traditionally, and had the gratitude of her students and even her administrators for her hard work, even though she was often ridiculed by the educational theorists for it.)

You never know where you're going to fall in the cycle. I barely missed the "open classroom" fad at my elementary school. (Classrooms without walls, all being conducted simultaneously in one giant babel, so you can hear all the teachers and students in the entire 4th grade at once! What? You think it might be difficult to discern a single voice and learn anything? NO! Learn by osmosis!)

[fjeastman]

William Weston's Ecotopia was published in, er, 1975? 74?

Big effect on the green movement. Ecoterrorists split off from America and create a green civilization in Washington/Oregon/California.

I read it for a history class. That was a rock-out class. It's great when old sci-fi geeks get to be chair of the history department. Then they get to teach History Through Science Fiction. We took a tour of both world/American history and the history of the science fiction genre, reading nothing but sci-fi novels. Wonderful class.

--fje

I had a similar experience.

I once (this would have been around 1983, just before everyone suddenly started getting concerned about green issues) wrote a science fiction story for my English class which was set in a future after the Ozone Layer had been destroyed by aerosols. I can't remember the exact plot, but basically everyone lived underground, except for scavaging raids "topside", during which they completely covered themselves in scraps of fabric.

[PeeDee]

Never let an English teacher withing one hundred miles of your novel. English classes and English teachers are death to your novel.

'm sorry, but that really bugs me. Honestly, let English teachers at your novel, let construction workers at your novel, retail salesmen, high school teenagers, lesbian nazi eskimo strippers...pick someone.

Otherwise, in ten years, when someone comes up to you and says, "Hey, congrats on the book, but I'm sorry, I didn't like it at all." You're going to find yourself thinking, "Ah, but you're a Professional Athlete, I wouldn't expect you to understand it, if you'd been an English/Feminist major, you would have gotten every detail of it. Pfft."

That's the last kind of attitude you want.

I realize I'm carrying the quoted comment a little further than it was intended (like saying that because you're listening to Twisted Sister, next you'll have tatooes and long hair) but I've heard that comment before, and the couple of idiot teenaged writers I heard it from were very particular about their audience (the result of which is generally a lack of audience).

[Shadow_Ferret]

I must be part of the last generation that had good, knowledgable, and yes, nurturing English teachers. Because the one I had throughout High School, Mrs. Jones, is one of the main reasons I'm writing today. With her patience and encouragement, I started submitting stories.

Granted a few years later when we met after I'd graduated she did have the nerve to ask if I'd really written those stories. Which is both a compliment (meaning they were too good for a high schooler) and insulting (meaning she questioned my true ability and possibly my ethics).

But while in school she was a damned fine teacher. :)

And "creative spelling" and other new agey schooling garbage is why we send our children to a parochial school. ;)

[Medievalist]

Never let an English teacher withing one hundred miles of your novel. English classes and English teachers are death to your novel.

Oy!

Some of us teach English, edit books, and read for publishers . . . you should be so lucky to be in my classes.

[Carrie in PA]

I'm not sure what other schools are teaching in regards to "creative spelling". In K and 1st, my DS's school has the kids write the words they way they hear them. They don't get a word "wrong" for misspellings. The teacher or helper then writes the word correctly so the child can see them side by side.

They don't really start focusing on spelling for credit until 2nd grade.

Is this not what other schools are doing? Surely they're not actually *teaching* kids to spell wrong??

[Shadow_Ferret]

Is this not what other schools are doing? Surely they're not actually *teaching* kids to spell wrong??

yes they are and stop calling me Shirley.

I dont know if and when they actually start teaching them proper spelling, but in many school systems, I've heard (anecdotally) that spelling is rarely corrected as long as the kids understand the meaning and usage of the word.

[NeuroFizz]

Little Fizzy is in first grade, and he has a list of weekly spelling words. He is tested on them, and he is expected to spell them properly--no phonetic versions are acceptable. This actually began in the last few months of Kindergarten (this, at a neighborhood public school).

[LloydBrown]

One of the worst manuscripts I've ever read was by an English teacher. At one point, I critiqued it for her and gave back pages and pages of notes. She didn't change one single thing, and it was chock full of errors.

[fjeastman]

Of course there are also arguments for, say, areas in which the student population is largely marginalized, such as non-English-speaking migrant areas in California or immigrant areas of southern Florida, where the primary home language isn't English ... or socioeconomically disadvantaged areas where education has been backslid by high dropout rates and young pregnancies ... that a strict and immediate adherence to SAE forms may re-marginalize children who enter the system with non-SAE knowledge and abilities ... so more careful integration systems can be effective in those situations.

New ways are not always better, but the old ways are not always the best, either. :) And very often you can't tell the new way doesn't work until you get it into the field in a wide way. Seems a little odd to experiment on the children, but many of those "failed" systems left behind a residue of useful methodologies.

--fje

[RedMolly]

In my (vast... no, really) parenting/teaching experience, it seems that kids learn grammar and spelling best by (the horror!) reading and writing.

Not by memorizing lists of spelling words.

Not by spending hours turning perfectly good sentences into monstrous chalkboard blueprints of pokey wirey bits.

They learn the same way auto-didactic folk (Jefferson, Washington, Franklin, Curie et al.) have done for centuries: by reading good books and writing, writing, writing.

I honestly can't think of a better way to turn a young, bright, passionate writer into a hater of all things linguistic than tearing her away from her book/story-in-progress and forcing her to memorize a bunch of dopey words or rules that she would otherwise pick up by osmosis.

[NeuroFizz]

In my (vast... no, really) parenting/teaching experience, it seems that kids learn grammar and spelling best by (the horror!) reading and writing.

Not by memorizing lists of spelling words.

Not by spending hours turning perfectly good sentences into monstrous chalkboard blueprints of pokey wirey bits.

They learn the same way auto-didactic folk (Jefferson, Washington, Franklin, Curie et al.) have done for centuries: by reading good books and writing, writing, writing.

I honestly can't think of a better way to turn a young, bright, passionate writer into a hater of all things linguistic than tearing her away from her book/story-in-progress and forcing her to memorize a bunch of dopey words or rules that she would otherwise pick up by osmosis.
Little Fizzy also has to read a short book nearly every night, answer basic questions on content, and put down a smiley or frowney face for whether he liked it or not. He's about two-to-one on frowneys. We have to sign off on it. The schools here give a wonderful balance with reading and spelling. I'm amazed at the amount of homework, but pleased at the same time. Sometime dopey rote rule-mastery goes well beyond the most obvious purpose, and sets up the children for a combination of formal and informal learning that serves them well beyond school. Sometimes these dopey-seeming exercises are there for brain training. I'm sure glad I was drilled to death on my multiplication tables, and I didn't have to figure them out for myself.

[Angela]

I've never even heard of "inventive/creative spelling"!! And I have three in Primary (K - 2) school right now, with one more who will be entering Pre-K in the fall of 2008. My oldest in in 2nd grade and he has "regular" spelling tests, much like when I was in school. Then again, I'm in a town in rural South Georgia, things don't catch on that quickly around here, and "inventive/creative spelling" certainly sounds like something that our teachers would buck against. One thing that they do that I will never understand is this thing where they have to sound out "nonsense" words. Words that aren't real, are completely made up. Like......nerkel or something. They actually have to sound out these words and reach a "benchmark" score. This can affect whether or not the kids are passed to the next grade, or if they're "ready for __ grade, with assistance" and placed in an EIP class. I'm not particularly fond of this "dibels" test, but it's mandatory, required by the state. Some of the things they're doing in the schools are annoying, and others make me uneasy. One of the reasons that I've seriously considered homeschooling my little ones.

I'm only 28, and even I remember diagramming (sp?) sentences!!

Now, having said all that, I must admit that I had some WONDERFUL English teachers in school!! Several encouraged me to pursue writing. My teacher in fourth grade spoke privately with my mother because of a poem that I had written about a dog we had that had died several years before when it was hit by a car. Apparently, she was concerned because my poem did what it was supposed to do, it evoked my grief. She thought the dog had JUST died. Then there was Mrs. Johnson in sixth grade, and Mrs. Danforth in high school. Both very dear women, and very strong supporters of my writing. I found term papers to be tedious because I wasn't given free rein to write the paper how I wanted to (i.e., quoting others, bibliography, etc.). I didn't like the fact that I had to basically chew up and digest someone else's work, then spit it back out in my own fashion. I wanted to share MY experiences, MY viewpoints on the matter, not go on what other so-called experts believed. (I was a senior in high school, full of myself and my "grasp" of the world.....cut me a little slack. :D ) Mrs. Danforth was very upset with me when she read my final essay after wading through my term paper and she asked me why I couldn't have written my term paper in the same fashion. I couldn't help it. She a darling woman.

As someone else already pointed out, you have some good teachers and you have some bad ones. Some are doing it because it's a job, others are doing it because they have a calling. Thankfully, most of mine had a calling. ;)

[batgirl]

My father taught English (among many other subjects) first in high schools and later, after he retired, to remedial classes. He was my first critic, and probably the best I will ever have, both tough and encouraging. One of his remedial students (brain-damaged adult) told me that he'd never understood before how to put together a sentence and paragraph.
My father also helped me understand quadratic equations well enough that I showed a friend two grades ahead of me how to do them. (I can't do this anymore.)

My grade five English teacher, on the other hand, almost put me off writing entirely, though this was probably more a personality clash than a reflection on her teaching skills. I lost any lingering respect for her after hearing her use the word "angryness".
God but I was a snotty superior child. No wonder she disliked me.
-Barbara

[RedMolly]

I agree that rote learning has an important place; but I disagree that all rote learning is necessarily valuable and/or productive.

I can see how diagramming sentences would make sense for a student having difficulty understanding grammar and structure. For a student who has already absorbed the basics, though, and put his or her own spin on them, it seems diagramming would be nothing but an exercise in futility.

Of course, I could just be biased because I remember how very much I hated the week we had to spend on sentence diagramming in eighth-grade English. (After the first week, my teacher didn't make me do it any more; I wrote a (probably incredibly sophomoric) play instead.)

We have a version of "spelling tests" in our homeschool as well; but we call it "word study," and the point is to learn Greek and Latin roots and expand vocabulary, not memorize fifty-eleven words ending in "-tion." (I come up with a root word, and my son decides which four words using that root he wants to use for intensive study.)

(And to sorta return to the original topic: Hooray English teachers! I had one excellent one in high school and another in college; their mentoring has proved invaluable. About the three in high school through whose classes I drifted in a rageful haze, I'll say nothing; nor will I speak of the college professor who single-handedly influenced my decision to NOT be a literature major.)

[skylarburris]

In my (vast... no, really) parenting/teaching experience, it seems that kids learn grammar and spelling best by (the horror!) reading and writing.

Not by memorizing lists of spelling words.

Not by spending hours turning perfectly good sentences into monstrous chalkboard blueprints of pokey wirey bits.

The difficulty with learning grammar by writing is similar to the difficulty you would have in learning addition by algebra. Grammar has a language, and if you learn the language, you can understand much more quickly what is wrong with a sentence. Having a teacher randomly correct your writing isn't very helpful when you don't know why it is being corrected, and when she can't even explain why it is being corrected because you don't know what the rules or terms are. If you don't know the rules, you cannot apply them. And it would take a long, long time to learn the rules through writing alone, without ever practicing them. Reading and writing reinforce grammar and spelling, the way algebra reinforces arithmetic.

My foreign language teachers would often be frustrated because they couldn't communicate simple concepts that involved grammatical terms, because most students didn't know the grammatical terms. It made it much more difficult for them to teach the language. In fact, on average, I probably learned more English grammar in my Spanish classes than I did in most of my English classes.

I had an English class in which we did nothing but read and write. Yes, it fueled my love of writing. If, however, that class had not been preceded by an English class in which the teacher taught us the rules of grammar and made us practice grammar with drills, I would not be nearly as good a writer. Why use only one method? Why not use both?

I honestly can't think of a better way to turn a young, bright, passionate writer into a hater of all things linguistic than tearing her away from her book/story-in-progress and forcing her to memorize a bunch of dopey words or rules that she would otherwise pick up by osmosis.

Children’s spirits are not so sensitive that they will be utterly crushed and their creativity destroyed if we correct them or teach them rules. This idea that rote learning destroys creativity has no tangible support. How many great authors learned by rote? You can learn by rote and still be creative. The child who is learning to play piano does not lose her love of music simply because she is taught scales. If, on the other hand, she is not taught scales, then no matter how much she loves and listens to music, she will not (unless she is a particular genius) go far as a piano player.

I hated much rote learning at the time. I am very glad I had it now. Today, we expect this generation to be athletes before we teach them to walk.

[RedMolly]

I'm not saying that we should never correct or teach rules--on the contrary, it's both parents' and teachers' responsibility to review their children's/students' work and show them where they need to make changes.

I would just argue that an informal correction will often do just as well, without spending needless hours drilling it into a child's head.

Example:
My five-year-old: Do you want to see the story I writed?
Me: Do you mean the story you wrote? I'd love to see it.

Another example:
My seven-year-old (as written on a sign he made for his "store" set up in the front yard): 10 cents each! Choose 1 or 2 rocks. 31 rocks to choose from! Lemonaid too! Please come again.
Me: Hey, "lemonade" is spelled with -ade. "Ade" means any kind of a cold fruit drink or punch, and you see it all the time in crosswords.

(We'll get to how the sign should've read "31 rocks from which to choose" sometime in the future.)

Once again, I'm not saying there is no place for rote learning. I just think it's all to easy to squelch children's interest in a subject before they've had a chance to develop the passion for it that leads them to realize that rote learning of some skill will help improve their mastery. Piano students need to learn scales, but you don't start them off with scales until they've got "Row, Row, Row Your Boat" down pat. Multiplication tables and parts of speech are important, but there's no better way to turn off a learner (especially a young, active, wiggly boy) than by making him spend two weeks doing nothing but.

(I'm teaching my older boy multiplication facts by playing "skip-count-catch." So far, he's having an easier time with the skip-counting than with the catching... sigh, he's inherited his mom's natural athletic ability.)

[Medievalist]

The thing about teaching, whether it's English or Physics or pretty much anything, is that there are lots of different skill sets, levels, and native abilities in a class.

You need to teach the same basic skill/information in several different ways; some people learn best one way, some another.

There are good reasons to diagram sentences, and while I wasn't thrilled with it in school, I do use it as a technique when I teach.

[skylarburris]

Example:
My five-year-old: Do you want to see the story I writed?
Me: Do you mean the story you wrote? I'd love to see it.

Well, sure, at five this is the best way to teach. But at some point he needs to learn that wrote is a verb and that it is the past tense of write. We probably disagree less than I think we do. Here is where I probably disagree the most, however. I think games, while fun and capable of reinforcing the basics, are not the best way to teach the basics, simply because games take too long to convey the information. I spent large amounts of time in school doing "projects" and playing "games" to learn what I could have learned in a few minutes of drilling. And instead of spending five days on a project, my teacher could have conveyed the information in fifty minutes, and I could have spent the rest of that time reading a book of my choosing or running around outside, or even learning something else. No kid likes drilling. Most kids don't like eating vegetables either. It doesn't mean these things aren't good for them, or that we should feed them chocolate cake until they are ready to stomach vegetables. (Okay, my analogies are getting a bit ridiculous.) As much as I hated drills, I was never turned off to math or writing or language. I was simply well prepared for them.

[Carrie in PA]

yes they are and stop calling me Shirley.

I dont know if and when they actually start teaching them proper spelling, but in many school systems, I've heard (anecdotally) that spelling is rarely corrected as long as the kids understand the meaning and usage of the word.

Well, Holy Cow. Just one more reason to adore DS's school.

[RedMolly]

Hey, we've got parts of speech covered.

Mad Libs. No better way to learn what a noun, verb, adjective or adverb is (plus the occasional "rude noise" as a reward for effort).

We also make up our own Mad Libs so we can cover categories like gerunds and prepositions (my sister's fourth-grade teacher's definition: "anything a rabbit can do to a log." File under "whaaa?").

I agree that your opinion and mine are not so far apart... I think I'm just "blessed" with two boys who tune out and quit paying attention the second I start drilling them on anything. (Yet the older one will happily spend forty-five minutes looking up a list of words in the dictionary. 'Cause he finally figured out how and he thinks it's cool.)

[badducky]

I am totally fine with all educators doing their job exactly how the government/society/education-machine want them to do it.

The alternative is me getting involved, and frankly, I've been to a PTA meeting and I am not opening that can of worms.

As far as educators who are writers? Well, Stephen King was a high school English teacher, and he seems to be doing okay writing.

[Imelda]

In my (vast... no, really) parenting/teaching experience, it seems that kids learn grammar and spelling best by (the horror!) reading and writing.

Not by memorizing lists of spelling words.

Not by spending hours turning perfectly good sentences into monstrous chalkboard blueprints of pokey wirey bits.

They learn the same way auto-didactic folk (Jefferson, Washington, Franklin, Curie et al.) have done for centuries: by reading good books and writing, writing, writing.

I honestly can't think of a better way to turn a young, bright, passionate writer into a hater of all things linguistic than tearing her away from her book/story-in-progress and forcing her to memorize a bunch of dopey words or rules that she would otherwise pick up by osmosis.

Completely, completely agree! My sister never reads (she had issues the teachers didn't address when she was five, and it's impacted her whole life) and she can't spell at all. I however, devoured books the moment I could read them, and rarely have a problem.

What really bugs me about primary schools in the UK is the structured 'literacy hour' they introduced. Kids don't get to read by themselves now, they have to read aloud and comment on things. They are forced to read whatever is the chosen book for that week, and in many cases the books never get finished. I know I would have hated it and quite possibly it would have destroyed my love of books if I'd been subjected to such a regime.

[suffolkhare]

As an English teacher I say - leave her alone! She's probably sick and tired of marking error ridden essays from rude pupils. She may have been having a bad day - teachers are human you know. She may have had a nasty experience at the hands of a literary agent called Hill!

She may not have been taught properly when she was at school. She may have a degree in English Literature. When she realises her mistake - and she will - she won't be able to sleep at night.

Who'd be an English teacher?

Get me out of here!

[Lolly]

My grandmother was an English teacher for 40 years, and she had an absolute passion for literature. To her dying day, she could recite the opening lines of Chaucer in Old English. She also loved Shakespeare and could quote from his plays. She was the one who inspired me with a love of reading and writing. I remember making up stories as a kid, and having her encourage me when I told them to her. If it hadn't of been for her, I probably wouldn't be writing today. I must say that she was also very firm about grammar, though. To this day if I end a sentence with a preposition I feel guilty. :eek:

I also must have been blessed, because I have wonderful memories of my high school and college English teachers.

[MicheleLee]

I learned loads from my high school english teachers. 1. contests are fun. winning is better! 2. I can write. Really, and I like to do it too. 3. Just because I'm possibly the best in the class doesn't mean I'm perfect. I can get out done. I can make mistakes. Furthermore I can fudge up too.

And in college: 1. Some teachers love individuality, creativity in essays in class. 2. some don't, but tolerate it because it's their job to deal with smart a**es. 3. ANY "creative writing" teacher who immediately discounts your writing because it is genre is not worth the price of the class. I bet he's furious now over the James Frey thing. Personally, I think an entertaining book is an entertaining book, no matter what it's billed as.

[MicheleLee]

I'm not sure what other schools are teaching in regards to "creative spelling". In K and 1st, my DS's school has the kids write the words they way they hear them. They don't get a word "wrong" for misspellings. The teacher or helper then writes the word correctly so the child can see them side by side.

They don't really start focusing on spelling for credit until 2nd grade.

Is this not what other schools are doing? Surely they're not actually *teaching* kids to spell wrong??


I knew this would come up. My son is in the first grade. He started getting spelling words late in kindergarden. Now we helped him too, but this year he is so confident that he can do it that he won't listen to our suggestions and spells it himself. Now I'm crazy proud of him, and he's usually close if not right. But he also has ever only missed two words on spelling tests. The teachers do it to encourage kids to use words they don't know how to spell and to expand their vocabulary and phonics skills before they learn some of the quirky spelling rules.
When I went to school I wouldn't use a word unless I knew how to spell it. So needless to say when it came to using new words it was about as slow as the five a week spelling list. But like me at home, my sons teachers make it a habit to use many new words, and many synonyms for words. My son hasn't learned about long vowels or certain consanent combinations (he's at "ch" right now) but he uses, in speech and in writing, both kinds of words. I have no qualms about it. I think it's excellent as long as once they progress they are encouraged to spell correctly, after those phonics rules are learned.

[Fillanzea]

Do you know any adults who are native speakers of English and say "writed" instead of "wrote"? Most of us don't. Most of us are a lot clearer on that than on not ending a sentence with a preposition or splitting infinitives. And the thing is, most of us don't need to be formally taught that some verbs are irregular, any more than we need to be formally taught that "Tasty green spinach has e.coli on it" is a valid sentence and "Spinach green has e.coli tasty it on" isn't.

I highly suggest that people read Stephen Pinker's book "Words and Rules"...there's been a lot of linguistic research done on how much of language is acquired just by being informally exposed to it. And, as it turns out, correcting "writed" to "wrote" doesn't really help very much. ;)

[Christine N.]

Here is where I probably disagree the most, however. I think games, while fun and capable of reinforcing the basics, are not the best way to teach the basics, simply because games take too long to convey the information. I spent large amounts of time in school doing "projects" and playing "games" to learn what I could have learned in a few minutes of drilling.

And I disagree with this, up to a certain age level. My nearly four year old is on the verge of reading - READING - because I have done nothing but a) read to him, and b) teach him by disguising the lessons as games. By playing games he was able to identify most letters before 2, and count to 10 by 2 1/2. He started spelling his name on his own one day last year, just after his third birthday. He's always asking me to write words and he memorized the spelling of his own name. He's a sponge that kid.

He can also do rudimentary addition and subtraction, because I put coins on the table and we take away and add them, so he can physically see what I'm talking about. Now I say, 'what's 2+2' - FOUR, Mommy!

He also has computer games he plays, and I think they help SO much. He even has a foreign language one. Someone said "Hola" on a TV show....
"Mommy, Hola is hello in Spanish."

I almost fell on the floor.

I CAN see how older grade levels need to leave the games behind, but for younger kids, games are a way to get them to pay attention without letting them know they're learning. :)

It's sneaky that way.

[emeraldcite]

Would we be surprised at how much or how little?

Actually, how little. Education majors have to take so many education credits and fulfill so many English credits. Since most graduate with around 120 credits or so, English Education majors split their course work between General Ed credits, Education credits, and English credits.

For example, at Penn State University, English Education majors were only expected to take one 100-level (basic) grammar course.

I'll tell you one thing: most college-bound seniors (the ones that I instruct) really could use a few grammar lessons coming up through the ranks.

[Becky Writes]

I was a English teacher once upon a time, and I agree with emeraldcite. Outside of English 101, which was English composition, there one other grammar course required. I was excited to take it, because to that point my last grammar leson had been in the 8th grade -- none in high school, that was all literature. When I took the college grammar class, it had been changed from grammar to linguistics. No help.

[zarch]

However, my university doesn't offer a degree in secondary education. I have a B.A. in Literature and a certification for 6-12 English. So the vast majority of my upper level college courses were English/Literature-related. Other than Composition I and II, I took four three-hour courses (upper level) that dealt specifically with the writing process, grammar, mechanics, usage, etc. So it depends on the university.

Hey, OP. Where's the context? It seems to me like you are trying to back out of this thread very quietly because you see now that your English teacher may have been right...and you misunderstood.

[earthshoes]

My favorite teacher in high school was a writer herself and has a whole lot to do with my passion for words. She was the absolute best and a huge source of encouragement--encouragement I was not getting at home. She was the first to suggest I try to get something published and helped me enter my first contest. She was on hand when I won too.

My sixteen year old's English teacher is nice enough, but I've had to tell him to pay attention to what she has to teach concerning literature and grammar, but to discount what she tells him about writing (He writes too, and better than I did at his age. Yay Homeschooling!). If she doesn't like one of his word choices, her suggested changes are generally worse--often cliched or archaic.

And on the subject of teaching grammar and spelling--what approach I use depends on the child. My oldest spoiled me. I never gave him a single spelling test--ever. He just picked it up along the way from reading and the corrections I made to his work. My second borne is different--requiring rote repetition, drills and reminders and corrections, but he's slowly getting it. My third is improving with correction. The fourth is still learning to read.

[maestrowork]

My high school English teacher was one of the best I had. I don't think I would ever continue writing, let alone getting published, if not for him. Sadly, he passed away last year under tragic circumstances. We're planning on a memorial publication for him, and I wrote a few things about him.

Most teacher didn't leave an impression on me. But those who did made me a better person.

[Jonny Nexus]

Hey, OP. Where's the context? It seems to me like you are trying to back out of this thread very quietly because you see now that your English teacher may have been right...and you misunderstood.

I must admit, that I am curious to see a few paragraphs of "before" and "after".

[Lolly]

And I disagree with this, up to a certain age level. My nearly four year old is on the verge of reading - READING - because I have done nothing but a) read to him, and b) teach him by disguising the lessons as games. By playing games he was able to identify most letters before 2, and count to 10 by 2 1/2. He started spelling his name on his own one day last year, just after his third birthday. He's always asking me to write words and he memorized the spelling of his own name. He's a sponge that kid.

[snip]

I CAN see how older grade levels need to leave the games behind, but for younger kids, games are a way to get them to pay attention without letting them know they're learning. :)

It's sneaky that way.


My grandmother (the English teacher I mentioned above) taught me to read before I went to school by pretty much doing what you describe. She went to an educational supply store and bought a large magnetic board with bright plastic letters. The board had twenty-six words around the edges, one starting with each letter. She made it fun to match the letters with the pictures, and to create new words to match what I saw around me. I still remember that board fondly. :)

[batgirl]

I must admit, that I am curious to see a few paragraphs of "before" and "after". Me too. The excerpts posted had no context. I need context. Must ... have ... context ....
-Barbara

[skylarburris]

Mad Libs. No better way to learn what a noun, verb, adjective or adverb is (plus the occasional "rude noise" as a reward for effort).

I loved Mad Libs. I can't wait until my kids are old enough to do them again...(not that I'd have to wait, I guess...but having kids gives one the excuse to do all sorts of things again, like Trick Or Treating).

The things is, as someone mentioned, different kids learn differently. The problem is, a teacher cannot teach by 35 different methods to 35 different kids in 55 minutes. And that's why I think in public school settings, drilling has, historically, on average, turned out better results than the more "progressive" methods of instruction. If you are homeschooling, you can tailor precisely to each child. But I don't think I will have the patience for that when the day comes, so I'll just supplement.

To the original poster: When are we getting examples? I'm dying to know if this teacher is really that incompetent.

[skylarburris]

I CAN see how older grade levels need to leave the games behind, but for younger kids, games are a way to get them to pay attention without letting them know they're learning. :)



I agree it's great for younger kids, but I was still playing games in classes in 10th and 11th and 12th grade. Heck, my geometry teacher had us build and fly paper airplanes for an entire day, and play computer games for an entire week. Before I took the SAT, I had to purchase a "Teach
Yourself Geometry" book and teach myself at 15 years old. My high school Spanish teachers in years one, two, and three all taught primarily by drilling (in one form or another). It was terribly boring, but I sure learned it, and I was fluent up to a three year level. The fourth year, we did nothing but play games and watch movies, and I think I actually lost some of my vocabulary and grammar knowledge. I certainly didn't progress. I wasn't prepared for the 5th year, which required novel reading, because I hadn't learned the advance grammar and vocabulary we were supposed to learn in year four. So I gave up and took some elective instead.

[Gillhoughly]

I share your pain.

I suggest that you (anonymously) gift her with a copy of Strunk & White's Elements of Style with the punctuation pages bookmarked and high-lighted.

Of course if you want to really make the rest of the year a living hell, bring that book to class and point out to her that she's wrong and you respectfully request she restore any points taken from your grade on those pages. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Medievalist]

The things is, as someone mentioned, different kids learn differently. The problem is, a teacher cannot teach by 35 different methods to 35 different kids in 55 minutes.

In primary school, no, and it's insane to even try. 35 kids in a class at that age is a nightmare; it's not a lot better at nine or ten, either.

But by the time the kids are in junior high and highschool, yeah, it's doable. It's not easy but it's doable.

It's definitely doable in college, where you will frequently have several hundred in a large lecture and five or so T.A.s who keep office hours and meet with smaller groups of twenty or so students for 50 minutes a week.

[Jonny Nexus]

I agree it's great for younger kids, but I was still playing games in classes in 10th and 11th and 12th grade. Heck, my geometry teacher had us build and fly paper airplanes for an entire day, and play computer games for an entire week.
In my A Level history class (at age 17) we learned about the diplomatic/strategic pressures that caused the First World War by playing a game of Diplomacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomacy_%28game%29). It turned out to be very educational. :)

[soloset]

Hey, OP. Where's the context? It seems to me like you are trying to back out of this thread very quietly because you see now that your English teacher may have been right...and you misunderstood.

Not that there's anything wrong with a misunderstanding. I, for one, am famous for the kind of mental blunders that make the people around you wonder exactly how many times you were dropped on your head as a child (not that this qualifies!). We actually use slang developed from several of my most memorable ones.

And the thread's been hijacked into "why I love or hate my English teacher" anyway.

But I'm still curious to know. :)

[zarch]

No, there's nothing wrong with a misunderstanding. But this thread also turned into a "why I hate my English teacher" discussion.

And again, we've not seen what comes before and after the infamous correction (let's call it comma-gate). I'm bumping this puppy back to the front page of threads...but I reckon it's the last time I'll call for the OP to follow up.

[Christine N.]

I don't think it's turned into that. Several people have stated how much their English teachers influenced them. I personally had great English teachers too.

And some didn't have teachers that were as good. Mileage varies with teachers. I'm sure the English teachers on this board ARE good, but we must recognize that some. are. not.

It happens in every subject - some are good and some aren't so good. My first Algebra teacher was horrid. Didn't know how to teach if you didn't understand right away. I failed Algebra I the first time, the ONLY class I ever failed in High School. The second time I had a better teacher and passed, mostly because he was much more patient and able to explain things more than one way. I didn't get the best grade, but he really took the time to help me.

[Sheryl Nantus]

as I said - I wouldn't be dissing the teachers so quickly.

just imagine what a professional editor will do to said novel.

and, again, more whining from a teenager. This is getting old.

[expatbrat]

As an English teacher I say - leave her alone! She's probably sick and tired of marking error ridden essays from rude pupils. She may have been having a bad day - teachers are human you know. She may have had a nasty experience at the hands of a literary agent called Hill!

She may not have been taught properly when she was at school. She may have a degree in English Literature. When she realises her mistake - and she will - she won't be able to sleep at night.

Who'd be an English teacher?

Get me out of here!

"She may not have been taught properly. She's probably sick and tired...."

Not good enough. If she can't teach it she shouldn't have applied for the job. What she was taught back when she was at school is irrelevant, all that matters is how she does the job now. If there are skills she does not have she should get them. We don’t want excuses we want results. She is being paid to teach – sick and tired do not enter the equation. If you don’t want to do the job anymore then go do something else.

Teach properly and with the energy and enthusiasm the job needs or don’t do it. Too many teachers are doing the job for the holidays, the money (?) or because they don’t know anything else. These reasons are not good enough. The teachers who teach because they like to teach and believe in the impact they are having on future generations are the teachers people remember as a positive influence for the rest of their lives.

As a personal trainer and a swim coach I have to be up and happy everyday. I need to be the best swimmer in the pool and one of the fittest looking people in the gym or I won’t get clients. Teachers seem to think they can be sick and tired of teaching and that is good enough reason to do a crappy job. (I know, I subcontract in a school).

A writer gets no leeway if they can not been stuffed meeting a deadline. Teachers don’t get any leeway when they are unable to perform the duties for which they are being paid.

[Imelda]

^ Here here!

The best teachers I've had were the ones that were still motivated. Apart from that one who was too motivated, but that's another, completely unrelated story ...

[zarch]

I'M BRINGIN' IT BACK!

The OP (something about nachos; sorry, I don't remember) never followed through. And it's been bugging me for a week. Sad, I know, as there are more important things in life, but I would be pissed if one of my students misunderstood something I said and blasted me on the Internet. I know there's the whole anonymity (sp?) thing, but I'm still bothered.

OP?

[Eldora_Rae]

I had a horrible writing teacher in the forth-grade once, who gotten me into a commafobia I'm so confused now where to use a comma and where not to use a comma. Then I get todal strangers reading my fan works which, I admit they are not my best works, tearing apart my sentences and stuff like that. >_< I'm ussualy open for help but seriously they just come down on me like vultures.

[jpserra]

I didn't have a really great English teacher until I reached college. I did have one memorable English teacher in highschool; he was a pederast; still it was stimulating.

I dodged that bullet! But he was entertaining.

JPS