F-word in YA

[Maprilynne]

Frowned upon, isn't it?

Maprilynne

[Fillanzea]

It's not unheard of completely--I know that it shows up in David Levithan and Rachel Cohn's "Nick & Norah's Infinite Playlist," and also John Green's "Looking for Alaska."

[James D. Macdonald]

You may well limit your markets.

The usual genius-exception applies. Just be prepared for bunches of schools and libraries to pass on acquiring your book. Which may well influence a publisher's decision to acquire your book.

This is an area to discuss with your editor. Is the word so completely necessary to your story that no other will do?

[cuteshoes]

In my edgy YA novel - some of the characters use it because thats the way college age kids talk.

They say things like "I'm just f*ing with you." (that's one of the character's catchphrases) and stuff like that.

I think if I took out the language, it wouldn't be realistic to me. Still, i don't hit the reader over the head with it. Only when absolutely necessary.

[Maprilynne]

That's what I figured. I think I'm going to leave it out. There are other things to say. Thanks Guys.:)

Maprilynne

[moondance]

I have used it twice in my YA novel, which will be published next year. The editor did not ever suggest I remove it. It's used sparingly but for effect.

[Shadow_Ferret]

In my edgy YA novel - some of the characters use it because thats the way college age kids talk.

They say things like "I'm just f*ing with you." (that's one of the character's catchphrases) and stuff like that.

I think if I took out the language, it wouldn't be realistic to me. Still, i don't hit the reader over the head with it. Only when absolutely necessary.

Why? I've heard "I'm just messing with you." Why wouldn't that work just as well?

[cuteshoes]

yeah I actually went through and already changed it to 'messing' with you after thinking about this thread. it works just fine. its not true to life based on my experiences in college. but whatever.

i doubt thats what would keep me from the libraries of schools. my book deals with alcohol abuse and tough subjects like that. if anything, those would keep schools from stocking the book if it sells.

[Isabeaulia]

I used it a few times in my novel and it wasn't a problem for my editor.

[Aubrey]

I'm so glad there's a thread about this. I'm in the same situation. Two of my characters had rough backgrounds and I think if I worked around them cursing I'd look like I was working around them cursing. They don't talk like Eminem by a longshot, but they do use bad curse words now and then. I hope it won't be too much of a problem. It's very much a YA novel otherwise and I can't see any adult market finding it of interest.

[Bartholomew]

Frowned upon, isn't it?

Maprilynne

The F word...

Fuerte, ¿Verdad?

[Valona]

May I pose another point of view on this issue?

How about we look at this issue from a moral view point? Aren't most of us here adults, writing for teens and children? Shouldn't we then be held to a higher standard than the kids we're writing to?

I know kids hear this kind of language all the time. It's nothing new to them. My own kids come home from school and have to wash their ears out every day. Still, should we condone that kind of language by emulating it? By including it in our writing, I think we are in effect endorsing it as acceptable.

I think we, as adults, need to set the better example. There are ways around using vulgarity and the infamous "F-word."

In my own novel, I've written about some pretty tough characters who use vulgarity in nearly every sentence, yet you never see the actual words. They are alluded to, but not written, and I do not think it hurts the flow or flavor of my novel. Simply saying, "so-and-so swore," then adding the rest of what he says, gives the readers the understanding that the kid in the story said a bad word or two. The reader can supply the words in his/her own mind without having to read the offending word.

I know of many writers who have used this technique quite successfully. Writers like Orson Scott Card, Dean Hughes, and others. I know, for me, I hate having to weed out those offending words as I read a novel, especially if the novel is written primarily for my own children to read.

[moondance]

Interesting point of view, Valona. I do see where you're coming from, but equally, the thought of 'weeding out' words so that I am in effect 'censoring' books for my children, would never occur to me. But then I don't think any of us use the word gratuitously. An f-word placed judiciously in a scene of tension can add great shock value that you couldn't get from 'someone swore'.

Teenagers are after all only young adults - and I feel they should be free to have the choice of reading swear words or not, as they prefer - which is what adults do. Censoring books at source is not something I would be happy with.

[Soccer Mom]

I don't include swearing in my books. I find ways around it. I won't allow my kids to read them and I won't offer them for other people's kids to read. Then again, I don't write for the upper end of the YA market and I concede that there is a difference.

[Valona]

Interesting point of view, Valona. I do see where you're coming from, but equally, the thought of 'weeding out' words so that I am in effect 'censoring' books for my children, would never occur to me. But then I don't think any of us use the word gratuitously. An f-word placed judiciously in a scene of tension can add great shock value that you couldn't get from 'someone swore'.

Teenagers are after all only young adults - and I feel they should be free to have the choice of reading swear words or not, as they prefer - which is what adults do. Censoring books at source is not something I would be happy with.

I don't read my kids books to censor them, but at the same time I don't think we adults should write things we wouldn't be proud of having our children read either. That was the main point of my argument. We are adults. We should be the examples of a better, moral way of living, not sink to the level of degenerates.

As for using fowl language for shock value, I feel that's a cheap and lazy way of achieving shock. To truly achieve shock, it should come through the actions and "real" dialog, not cheap tricks.

[Alex Bravo]

I agree with Valona. Anyone can write the F-word for shock. We are artists, and supposed to be creative. The real creativity is shocking the reader without the word.

[Aubrey]

Well, I think in some cases it can be ommitted and it's fine. But in others, like with tough, older teens or very dark settings, I'm afraid it might come off unrealistic, or, like I said earlier, coming off looking like you're trying to avoid using it.

If it isn't a character who swears much and he doesn't argue with people who do much, I think a simple "he swore" could work. But if he tends to use curse words a little more often it's pretty hard to get around without LOTS of work. I really admire anyone who could pull this off. I'm not sure I could get away with this with rougher characters.

[AncientEagle]

As for using fowl language for shock value, I feel that's a cheap and lazy way of achieving shock.

I think anyone using fowl language must be chicken.

[cree]

My thoughts are: be true to the characters. What I write isn't about my own values, it's about theirs. If any hang-ups I have as a person infiltrate the character, I have ceased to write their story, I have begun subtly inserting my own agenda.
Often, that ends up not ringing true.
It's really about the characters and their vision of things, not what "cree wishes the world to be" -- foul language free, is not realistic.
But I guess I'm not someone who thinks the world should come to a screeching halt when a 17-year-old reads the word fvck in a book, so I'll stop there. :)

[moondance]

*agrees with cree, but can agree to disagree with others* :)

[Grey Malkin]

I think too much profanity can ruin any good book, even for adult audiences. It's true that many people swear when they talk, whether they're women in a factory, gansters in a warehouse or adolescents on a street corner, but they also "hum" and "err" and fluff words, talk over each other, forget what they were saying, repeat themselves and mumble.

Dialogue is different to speech.

Dialogue is not a facsimile of actual speech, otherwise is would be a pain to wade through. Using swear words simply because you think it gives it a touch of realism is a mistake, because to give the characters justice you would have to splatter the page with obscenity and soon the words loose their power. In general speech, profanity is mainly used as a sort of wild card adjective, and almost always means "very". If you strip it out you lose nothing, and emotions, even anger, can be conveyed in so many better ways than having a character swear.

But, there is a place for it, especially if you have a character swearing in an unusual place, say in church, or accidentally at a family dinner. It can be used as a comic tool, rebellion, immaturity and a load more, but if you over use it, the power is gone.

Example - who really notices that Eminem "cusses" in his songs - yeah they work, but it doesn't raise any eyebrows. Whereas is George Bush said something in a speech to the nation, "These f*ckers have gone too damn far" - we'd be talking about it for years.

I've allowed myself a few minor swear words and one "F*ck" in my YA novel and so far the agent hasn't mentioned it, but to put it in context, the novel is incredibly violent, involving cage-fighting and gansters where you'd expect a mass-swear-a-thon, but what's the point?

Grey

[KTC]

I'm keeping my f-shots in my manuscript. I've had it critiqued by 7 people in a group and there have been lively debates about it. 5 of the critiquers say that each one I placed must stay in the conversation to give the conversation the base in reality it needs. My question to the group was: Is it still a YA if it carries the f-bomb? Even that wasn't agreed upon. In the end, I went with the majority. They all agreed that if I send it to a publisher who doesn't agree with the F-shot usage, they will merely remove it. The manuscript will not be rejected based on a few bombs.

PS...It's not littered with f-bombs. There is just some very intense dialogue in a few places where I felt it was needed.

[Grey Malkin]

We are seeing it more and more, and I think that's a good thing. Swearing is part of everyday english and isn't something to be completely ignored. If you feel it's important then definitely, definitely keep it. My gripe is with writers (particular in the adult genres) who use it repeatedly - that's just lazy writing.

Another point worth considering is whether our moral responsibility as adults writing for teens is greater than the teens' need to read something they can relate to. After all, that's why the market is there.

Grey

[popmuze]

I feel this is a slippery slope, like songwriting before rap came along. Whoever thought it would be appropriate to use vulgarity in song lyrics? Imagine Cole Porter or Irving Berlin putting cuss words into romantic ballads. I don't believe Dylan has ever done it either.
As others have said, to be true to profanity the way it's used in actual life, you'd have it in every other sentence.
There's got to be creative ways around it. Or you could always resort to the good old #@!*!$ of comic book yore.

[Doctor Shifty]

I work as a prison chaplain, so I spend most of my days with those who might normally be thought of as the worst swearers on (off) the streets.

What I find at work is very interesting. Staff will swear often and loudly, the women more than men. The foulest mouth in my workplace is a woman in second-to-top level management.

Inmates, on the other hand, if they swear in my presence, will apologise for it. And if the man himself doesn't apologise another will prompt him to apologise for swearing in front of me. I let them apologise, but I really don't need it.

I take this as something worth considering in my writing. I very rarely have characters swearing, although one of my published short stories starts with a long succession of F-words, and features the word through the story. The guy "teaching" himself to swear is his coping mechanism for another profanity the pathologist says is growing inside him.

My current YA novel has great opportunity for swearing - a bunch of middle years teens in a school for difficult boys - but nobody swears anywhere in the whole book. I lived in a boy's home for kids in strife with the law when I was 15/16, back then we even went looking for swear words in the dictionary.

My own preference in writing is for something different.

[Valona]

My thoughts are: be true to the characters. What I write isn't about my own values, it's about theirs. If any hang-ups I have as a person infiltrate the character, I have ceased to write their story, I have begun subtly inserting my own agenda.
Often, that ends up not ringing true.
It's really about the characters and their vision of things, not what "cree wishes the world to be" -- foul language free, is not realistic.
But I guess I'm not someone who thinks the world should come to a screeching halt when a 17-year-old reads the word fvck in a book, so I'll stop there. :)

I have to take issue with this. What writer does not have an agenda? We're all trying to express our agendas, that's why we're writing. If you don't think you have one, think again. What are your real motives in writing, if not to express your view of the world?

Getting back to the infamous "F-word," it is not necessary to use the actual word if you're creative enough. I've read many books by numerous authors who have portrayed tough men and women and have never used the "F-word." It just is not necessary if you're a creative writer, and isn't that what we writers are supposed to be - creative?

Again, I maintain that as most of us are adults, shouldn't we stand on higher moral ground than the people to whom we are writing? Shouldn't we be an example of a better way? I'm very disappointed in people who claim to be religious and justify using profanity on the grounds that it makes their work "sound" real. Tell me if Jack London or John Steinbeck sound real. They were masters of their day and never used the "F-word," at least I've never read it in their works. They didn't need to. They were creative enough to get around it.

I repeat what I said earlier; I think using profanity because it "sounds" real, or for "shock" value is lazy writing. Shouldn't we be striving to improve our craft? I think we should try to see how many ways we can avoid using that word, not rationalizing why we need to use it.

[Button]

I noticed in Harry Potter they used some rather dirty language, I didn't understand a lot of what people like Ron were saying but it sounded pretty dirty. ;)

I don't think I've seen such language in young adult books before, and I read a number of them. I tend not to use language I don't use myself in any book, only because it is not natural for me to use it. If I ever had a charachter that needed to though, I would use it. I can't imagine using it in my YA stuff, but I dont think I would put down such a book for one or two words. And using profanity just for shock value is stupid, but using it because kids are stupid and say stupid things to be cool and stuff... that's normal.

[moondance]

Again, I maintain that as most of us are adults, shouldn't we stand on higher moral ground than the people to whom we are writing? Shouldn't we be an example of a better way?

But we also have a responsbility to be true to our characters. I also don't see my role as writer as providing a 'better way' for teenagers to behave. I see my role as writer to write about interesting, vivid characters in a way that people will engage with. I do not wish to preach to children about how they should and should not behave. The protagonists in my books are not always well behaved; however they are all, in essence, decent people. They make mistakes. They are 'real'. They do learn from their mistakes (mostly) but I will not sanitise my characters in order to somehow educate my readers about the use of bad language.

I repeat what I said earlier; I think using profanity because it "sounds" real, or for "shock" value is lazy writing.

I think this is an oversimplification. I do feel that using the F word simply for shock value, in the vain expectation that people will think the writing is more profound, is lazy. However, if my middle-class, white 15-year-old girl suddenly blows up at her family and uses the F word to them, the 'shock' value is because the characters themselves are shocked. Shock to the reader is a secondary consideration. The protagonist later reflects on her use of the word and is angry with herself. If I had not actually written the word, the impact on the reader and the characters in the story would be lessened.

[KTC]

I have to take issue with this. What writer does not have an agenda? We're all trying to express our agendas, that's why we're writing. If you don't think you have one, think again. What are your real motives in writing, if not to express your view of the world?

Getting back to the infamous "F-word," it is not necessary to use the actual word if you're creative enough. I've read many books by numerous authors who have portrayed tough men and women and have never used the "F-word." It just is not necessary if you're a creative writer, and isn't that what we writers are supposed to be - creative?

Again, I maintain that as most of us are adults, shouldn't we stand on higher moral ground than the people to whom we are writing? Shouldn't we be an example of a better way? I'm very disappointed in people who claim to be religious and justify using profanity on the grounds that it makes their work "sound" real. Tell me if Jack London or John Steinbeck sound real. They were masters of their day and never used the "F-word," at least I've never read it in their works. They didn't need to. They were creative enough to get around it.

I repeat what I said earlier; I think using profanity because it "sounds" real, or for "shock" value is lazy writing. Shouldn't we be striving to improve our craft? I think we should try to see how many ways we can avoid using that word, not rationalizing why we need to use it.

I take extreme offense to this. Extreme. I consider myself a creative writer and an intelligent writer. I have never considered myself a lazy writer for using a particular word while writing. My, but you take the pompous cake. If you think removing an F word is improving craft, well...you know what? I can't even continue with this conversation. My mind is blown.

[fanatic]

I don't believe swear words are necessary to add the right flavor to a character's words. There are plenty of ways to do so without cursing. But if an author feels like a particular curse word is necessary, then so be it. Growing up, I read a lot of YA books that used swear words and acknowledged alternative lifestyles. And I didn't grow up to be a serial killer, gay, knocked up at age 16, foul-mouthed, etc.

[KTC]

And I didn't grow up to be a serial killer, gay, knocked up at age 16, foul-mouthed, etc.

It's sad that you lumped gay with serial killer. Gay is not an evil.

[Alex Bravo]

CREATIVITY!!! GOODNESS!!!

One of the most frightening scenes is Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho, and yet, if you really watch it, it's nothing like the gore of today's films, yet, his was just as shocking!

If it looks like you avoided the word, then you didn't pull it off. We can either be lazy, or try to take our writing to the next level. In the past, I've always been lazy and done everything the easy way until I realized all those stories, the easy ones, have already been told.

[fanatic]

It's sad that you lumped gay with serial killer. Gay is not an evil.

Oops, didn't mean it that way. I was trying to point out that just because we read about something doesn't mean we'll turn out that way.

[Marlowe]

It's sad that you lumped gay with serial killer. Gay is not an evil.

Seriously, what the hell?

And the book I just finished, I used the f-word quite a bit, and I don't feel like I used it as a crutch in the slightest. The narrator was a 17 year-old with a moderately limited vocabulary, and the occasional cursing kept me in touch with the character's voice, and, I think, flowed nicely with the language around it. If I find it gratuitous in any spots, I'll take it out, but I don't consider it a moral issue. (The only words I'd put into that category, regardless of context, are racial slurs, and even those shouldn't be completely ignored, if only for history's sake.)

[Grey Malkin]

I think using profanity because it "sounds" real, or for "shock" value is lazy writing.

I agree with this, even though I thoroughly support profanity in YA novels.

When used sparingly and in the right place, strong language can have a superb effect, but to rely on bad language to either shock or convey emotion is pretty damn lazy.

An example of a writer who has mastered the art of using profanity in context and with considerable strength, is the brilliant K.L. Going - try her debut novel, Fat Kid Rules The World.

Grey.

[cree]

IWhat are your real motives in writing, if not to express your view of the world?
Serious? I am not an essayist. I stand firm that my character's view of the world can be other than my own. Thank heavens, or all my characters would be from the POV of middle aged white chicks. Usually thematic streams are consistent with my view of the world, but not my characters' behavior. Let's say I'm homophobic (since I'm not), are you saying that all my characters should have the trait of homophobia because that's my agenda? Eeek. That scares me.

I'd much rather my kid read the F-bomb than be subjected to authors who write under the guise of their own "agendas" for an imagined "moral good".

[cree]

Wow. Since i last posted in this thread, something happened that was so relevant that i just had to come back and share. The timing freaked me out a little, but here goes. Sorry in advance for the length.

PART ONE: I was just driving on the interstate with my daughter, on our way to pick up the mom-in-law. A new addition had been spray-painted in humongous red letters on a bridge overpass. F U. Only fully spelled out, in massive letters. You couldn't miss it, had to look at it while approaching the bridge, and I can guarantee it wasn't there 2 days ago when I last drove this road.
Anyway, here we are, driving along, me and the kid. With this beacon in front of us.
Check that out, I say. Now THAT'S going to offend a lot of people.
Sure, she says, not too interested, or maybe a little uneasy.
Can you imagine climbing up there like that, to spray paint that? How did they not get caught? I say.
They must have done it in the middle of the night, she says.
Even so, I say.
We drive.
Lucky they didn't fall, I say. What would they put on that person's gravestone, if they fell and smushed on the interstate while spray-painting FU on the overpass? FU too, dude?
We laugh.
The sad thing is, some DPW worker has got to clean that off now, and quick. Before Oktoberfest this weekend. Now there's a bad welcome for tourists, and the businesspeople can't afford to lose the tourists. I say.
Maybe they should have written FU in German, my daughter replies.
(Love that sense of humor).
Hey, have you seen the graffiti art they put on the walls at the skateboard park? she asks.
That Picasso-looking stuff? That's cool, I say. And that's the end of our discussion on the FU Overpass.

So, my point in Part One of this little story is that I feel the following happened: I established a conversation with my daughter on a taboo topic, hoping that she knows she can talk to me about anything. Score. I conveyed the offensiveness of the graffiti in a funny way. Score. I pointed out that a worker would have to risk his safety to clean it and business people would be impacted, so that she would "think about others". Score. I pointed out the dummy who committed the crime was a fool, who had he been caught, would look really stupid. Score. We connected on some skateboard park art and moved easily out of the conversation to the next topic. Score.

Now comes part 2.

Part Two: We pick up the mom-in-law. In the variety of errands we must run for her, we have to (yes, you guessed it) drive under the same underpass. So now I have kid and mom-in-law on board as we approach the huge red letters.
And as my in-law realizes what she is seeing, she screams.
"Jesus, Mary and Joseph! Cover your eyes, cover your eyes!" she says to my kid. "Better yet, get on your cell phone and call the police. They need to get that off there NOW."

Um, my point about part two is I don't know what my kid learned. But maybe someone here can enlighten me. (?)

[Evaine]

I remember being about eleven or so when I saw similar graffiti (but much smaller) on a lamp post. I asked my mum what it meant, and she explained, calmly. This seems to me to be the best way to go about it, in life and in YA books.

[Jimmer]

I am always amused by all the hand wringing over usage of curse words in literature.

We are writers. We arrange words in an attempt to manipulate the reader's emotions and thoughts. That's what we do. There really is no such thing as the right word or wrong word for any given situation. There are only good words and better words available to serve our purposes.

A curse word is no different from any other word. It is a symbol, a collection of letters, that conveys meaning. For anyone, at any age, to reel in shock over the mere sight of any collection of letters is silly. It's just plain silly.

Anyone who has been within ear shot of teens these days knows all sorts of once taboo words are used in a most casual sense in everyday conversation without any real thought as to their original meaning. They have evolved into something other than the original meaning. They are simply words, nothing more.

To use or not use any of these words in our writing should be less dependent on any one person's moral viewpoint and more focused on the particular reaction, emotionally or intellectually, the word might provoke in the reader's head while reading. Ask yourself, Will this word stimulate my intended response? As writers, we should choose the best word that might accomplish our objective. If you choose to dance around certain words that make you or your grandparents uncomfortable, that's your choice. It may or may not be a good choice, depending on whether your goal is accomplished.

I'll say this though, write dialogue that does not sound real to a young adult and you will lose your reader in fractions of a nanosecond. And rightfully so.

Be true to your story, be true to your characters, be true to your gut. Write the story within.

The rest should take care of itself.

My two cents.

[Bk_30]

Sort of off topic and yet it relates. When I was 12 or 13 my grandparents went on a cruise to Italy. There, they saw the statue of David, took many photo's, and came home. My Grandfather, was an Episcopal priest, and my Grandmother, was ever the preachers wife; yet they had no problems with me, or my younger sisters, viewing and discussing the pictures of the artwork they brought home. However, my Great Grandma on viewing the statue screamed, "Carolyn, this man is naked! He aint got no clothes on!" and put her hand over the picture.

My point is that society and it's rules change over time. The danger of overly cursing in books, TV, or movies..is that it can,has, and will continue, to change these rules of social behavior.

I don't believe we can go back. Everthing is out there being discussed openly and freely somewhere. The rules of what is, or was, considered polite conversation no longer apply. Including what we consider age appropiate, are changing everyday. Do we as writers play a part in that? yes.

I think it is up to the individual to decide how they will influence the next change.

[Valona]

A curse word is no different from any other word. It is a symbol, a collection of letters, that conveys meaning. For anyone, at any age, to reel in shock over the mere sight of any collection of letters is silly. It's just plain silly.

This is very true. But let's take a look at this issue from a different angle. How many of you want to use the "F-word" here on this board but are forbidden by rules of the board to not use it? Ask yourselves why?

Also, is the "F-word" better than the "N-word?" I've heard a lot of fuss in the news lately (whether true or false isn't the issue) about a prominant person in politics having used the "N-word" at some point in his life. He's being crucified over it. I presonally feel the "F-word" is just as bad if not worse. I wouldn't use either.

[Jimmer]

Word choices typically say more about the user than they do about the intended "target" of the derogatory term. In the case of writers, our characters may reveal biases in using coarse language that might be difficult, or less effective, to convey with other methods. In that case the coarse language characterizes purposefully and effectively.

Should I personally choose to use derogatory terms in my own speech I again would reveal more about myself than anything else. I choose to avoid such words in my own speech in keeping with my own sensibilities. That is my choice.

That certainly does not mean, however, I would hesitate for an instant to have one of my characters use any particular word should I need it to characterize. What my characters say has no bearing whatsoever on my own personal sensibilities.

In the same way that usage of the N word has caused quite a reaction and re evaluation of the prominent political person's sensibilities you mentioned, I would hope using a similar word as dialogue in a work of fiction would serve an equally effective and immediate purpose in categorizing a fictional character. Language and the individual words we choose are tools to further our purpose. Nothing more. What words I choose to use in speech and what words my characters use in print are two completely separate issues.

[Alex Bravo]

That reminds me. My eight-year-old son was given a rock collection by his grandfather, and while I drove he read the names of the rocks, calcite, quartz, jasper, druze and the very last one was FUXITE. My wife and I both looked at each other. "Excuse me son? What did you just say?" "Fuxite." "Son, I don't think you are pronouncing that correctly. Let me see." Sure enough, it was Fuxite!!!

So um, just sprinkle a few Fuxites in your work!! And don't forget SCHIST, that's another rock.

[cree]

Word choices typically say more about the user than they do about the intended "target" of the derogatory term. In the case of writers, our characters may reveal biases in using coarse language that might be difficult, or less effective, to convey with other methods. In that case the coarse language characterizes purposefully and effectively.

Should I personally choose to use derogatory terms in my own speech I again would reveal more about myself than anything else. I choose to avoid such words in my own speech in keeping with my own sensibilities. That is my choice.

That certainly does not mean, however, I would hesitate for an instant to have one of my characters use any particular word should I need it to characterize. What my characters say has no bearing whatsoever on my own personal sensibilities.

In the same way that usage of the N word has caused quite a reaction and re evaluation of the prominent political person's sensibilities you mentioned, I would hope using a similar word as dialogue in a work of fiction would serve an equally effective and immediate purpose in categorizing a fictional character. Language and the individual words we choose are tools to further our purpose. Nothing more. What words I choose to use in speech and what words my characters use in print are two completely separate issues.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Valona, I'm very curious why you aren't able to separate the usage of words yourself and the usage of a word by a character. Is it inconceivable that, say, a rural cop in the 1960s might use the N-word? That a father who has just watched his child die might utter "I hate God?" That the impoverished mother of five small children might call the woman with whom her husband is cheating a whore? Or must all these characters conform to a version of verbal morality that you've established for yourself? I am genuinely curious, not trying to be combative -- I'm having a ton of trouble following the logic and want to try to understand...

[moondance]

Can I just say how much I'm enjoying this discussion? It's throwing up all sorts of things that I wouldn't normally think of. I'm not saying it'll change the way I write, but it's certainly given me some thoughts to ponder...

ooh, and valona, I don't wish to use the F word online. I use it only when I am angry or annoyed (and yes, I DO use it at home) but since I never post when I am in those moods, I never need to use the word. I expect I could get round the censor if I wanted to (having been taught how to on another forum ;) )

[Grey Malkin]

What about jokes and humour. I don't mean going at it full on Richard Prior, Chubby Brown style, but sometimes profanity makes a big difference when highlighting a joke, which is why swearing should be allowed on boards like this, not censored out like we're bluddy kids.

Example. A woman goes into a shop and sees a parrot. She says, 'How m-m-much for the p-p-parrot?'

'Two hundred dollars,' replies the guy behind the desk.

'T-t-t-two h-hundred? That's a l-l-lot of m-money. Does it t-t-talk?'

'A lot feckin' clearer than you,' says the parrot.

:)

[Codger]

Frowned upon, isn't it?

Maprilynne


What age are you targeting? (YA includes readers from___ to _____?) What demographics? Use of profanity has everything to do with who's going to read it.

[moondance]

What age are you targeting? (YA includes readers from___ to _____?) What demographics? Use of profanity has everything to do with who's going to read it.

YA is typically 13-18, so there is a wide spectrum. Unfortunately, although in essence you should be right about it being 'everything to do with who's going to read it' it also has a lot to do with who's prepared to publish it ;)

[Codger]

YA is typically 13-18, so there is a wide spectrum. Unfortunately, although in essence you should be right about it being 'everything to do with who's going to read it' it also has a lot to do with who's prepared to publish it ;)

You're right. If the editor doesn't like your writing, for any reason, you don't get published.

As writers, we're free to express ourselves in any way we deem appropriate, but it doesn't follow that anyone will publish, or ultimately, read our work.

[smiley10000]

Great discussion!

I don't think it is necessary. You can usually say the character swore and get the point across. But, I don't swear at all in real life, so that probably contributes to my opinion.

I don't think Valona is trying to say that people don't swear, but more that we don't, as writers, have to use gratuitous swearing to prove that. We could use other means of showing anger, lack of education, etc.

I guess I see both sides of the argument.

Just a note, JK Rowling said the following in an interview:
“My editor won’t let any of the characters swear, which is sometimes difficult because Ron is definitely a boy who would swear. So you will have noticed I get round that by having him ’Ron used a word that made Hermione say Oh Ron’. So I do have to do that quite a bit with Ron.”

You may want to keep in mind that many publishers won't publish swearing. Of course, as someone stated above, if they don't like it, they'll just edit out.

Once again, it looks like the answer to the question is, "Well, it depends."...
:Ssh:10000

[Stew21]

Getting back to the infamous "F-word," it is not necessary to use the actual word if you're creative enough. I've read many books by numerous authors who have portrayed tough men and women and have never used the "F-word." It just is not necessary if you're a creative writer, and isn't that what we writers are supposed to be - creative?

This has stood out to me for the last couple of days of reading this thread.
As a creative writer you use the tools available to you, language being one of them. Does it make a writer more creative to select a word at random, completely arbitrarily and write without it? No. Why would you limit your tools as you create something, whatever your craft may be. It's a tool. words are our tools as writers. It expresses something of a character, it expresses intensity of emotion, and if used properly is hardly noticed because it fits SO well into the dialogue or moment.
I don't believe it should be used in a gratuitous way, by any means, but it is a writer's tool. It is part of language, like any other word. it has a meaning, it displays character when used in dialogue. Limiting your tools does not make one more creative. JMO.

[Eldora_Rae]

Using the F-word in the book? I would never do that not even in my adult romance novels expecailly not young adult novel. I really see no need for such langauge although, I don't keep them todaly innocent like I may have a character at worst say Sh** but, I never have the F-word or F-word related langauge.

[Grey Malkin]

I'm yet to see a YA contain the "c" word - rhymes with stunt. Only a matter of time. Let's see what the Potter Boy says in the final book when he defeats his nemisis: "That Lord Voldermort, he was a right old cu... :)

Jerry Saddowitz, a UK comedian, once tried to make the ultimate swear word by combing the "c" word with "b*stard" - ended up with "custard"

I'll get me coat....

[Jimmer]

You know, I think a whole lot of this discussion as to whether it's okay or not to use coarse language in YA novels stems from a difference in definitions. We've already talked a bit about what constitutes YA (I think it was on this thread. Maybe not. Somewhere on AW though). Clearly some folks think it's for younger readers than others. To me, there is no way Potter is even close to YA. So, knowing that, you might see where the differences in acceptable language rest.

I've got a YA novel in front of me. How do I know it's YA? It won the Delacorte First Young Adult Novel first prize a few years back. It's filled with the F word, the A**hole word, the b**tch word, and, although I don't have the motivation to look, I'll bet anything it has the c word that rhymes with stunt. There's teen sex, there's teen drinking, there's frank discussions of all sorts of relevant and topical issues common to high school kids. Folks this is young adult. This is the world they live in. This is how they speak. This is a great book too. It's called "Breaking Boxes" by Amanda Jenkins. Put blinders on if you wish, but the truth is, young adults read this stuff and like it. I like it too. I don't use that language but it's okay with me if someone else chooses to, including my YA characters.

Harry often says "piss off" to Ron but I sincerely doubt he'd ever say f*** off, which is why these books are not YA. In YA he *would* say that. Or certainly Ron would say it back to Harry.

If you think NY won't publish edgy YA writing, you don't have the correct definition of YA in your noggin. This book I'm speaking of was not only published, it won awards. I know there are many many more just like this one and many with even worse language and situations. Rape, incest, abuse, drugs...these are all common YA themes.

If you choose to write clean and your plot and characters would actually speak and behave that way, fine. But don't think for one minute that it is not allowed. YA thrives on controversy.

[Evaine]

Jimmer is right - and I doubt very much whether Harry Potter and co would use the f word or the c word, because they do not exist in the sort of society that uses those words casually. Hogwarts is not exactly an inner city comprehensive school, after all.

[fanatic]

I'm yet to see a YA contain the "c" word - rhymes with stunt.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe that Robert Cormier's The Chocolate War uses the c-word.

[Eldora_Rae]

Boy I have a sheltered life I don't even know what the c-word is.

[jfreedan]

I have the same opinion of some others here-- it really depends on the story. If you're writing a YA story about life in a street gang, then you probably would see quite a lot of profanity.

If you're writing a YA book about, say, a young teenage missionairy in wherever-the-hell-missionaries-go-nowadays, probably not much profanity, if at all.

It's all about whether profanity is appropriate for your target audience, and if it is appropriate for the characters themselves to use.

[maddythemad]

Actually, come to think of it, I have no idea how I learned the c-word, as I've never read it in a book either. Must be all that foul middle-school language. . .

[Grey Malkin]

In YA he *would* say that. Or certainly Ron would say it back to Harry.

:) and Harry would be jacking up while Hagrid pimped Hermione to Slitherin House.

I think you've got YA down to a T. In the social-realistic sense it can be pretty hard hitting and gritty (check out Melvin Burgess), but that's not the end of the story. In this age group you can explore all the confusion and teenage angst that goes on in those years, even if you're writing a fantasy novel, as well as the mixed messages and hypocricy teenagers see when they try to work out what this growing up business is all about. It's probably the most exciting genre out there, and usually packed with emotion and confusion. The one thing I always keep in mind when writing YA is that my audience are already reading adult material anyway. YA can be as strong as any adult novel, the only real difference is that the audience have a teenage protagonist to relate to.

great debate though, especially the risk factor of including profanity in your YA novel - being that it probably wont get on a school reading list.

Grey

[jack scoltock]

In my novel, In The Shadow Of The Oak I used the word, Bastard. The children loved that paragrah- why- who knows-
But it was essential to the story to get the boy's anger out.
Jack

[ixchel]

I think it depends on the book. In my second WIP, I use the f-word twice. But it was keeping with my character's voice. Now if you use the word just to use it or for shock value I don't think it works.

[Soccer Mom]

Mature themes are what make something YA. Not profanity. Just my $.02.

[Jimmer]

I think mature themes *presented realistically* is what truly characterizes good YA.

Jimmer

[stephblake24]

Judy Blume paved the way for the topics in YA literature.

In my current WIP, one of my 13 yo male characters swears as part of his personality. He says things like jacka**, hell, "don't be a dick" and damn but nothing else. His older sister calls him a "little sh**" one time. I don't think swear words shock most kids anymore, but I left it out the swearing unless is was part of the book, and I am not opposed to taking out the other swear words if need be.

My son is reading Of Mice and Men in 9th grade and he says there was swearing in it...he seemed surprised that they would assign it.

Also, has anyone read Wolf Boy? Talk about the f-word.

[moondance]

I teach Of Mice and Men (to pupils aged 14-15), and there is copious use of the word 'bastard' and one or two examples of '*****' but apart from that it's what I would call mild swearing, such as 'hell' and 'damn'. There is no F word.

It's a fantastic book, by the way. I'd never read it before I taught it and now I love it.

[moondance]

Interesting - the forum censored the word 'Bitch' in case you were wondering.

[cree]

Interesting - the forum censored the word 'Bitch' in case you were wondering.

My female dog finds this a bit over-zealous and a possible case of discrimination. :)

[Jimmer]

What, our eyes need to be protected from a collection of letters?

What if I typed tibch? Is that profane? It's the same letters.

I guess it must be certain arrangement of letters that provokes such fear that some feel the need to remove it from our sight. Are we that fragile that we need such protection? And who decides which arrangements?

This is the problem with censorship. It assumes we need protection. Plus, it feels it knows best as to which things must be removed for our better good.

How sad for us.

[Drew T.]

On another website, someone posted the opening scene to his spec television pilot. It was a college drama, and he hoped to eventually polish it to try to sell to cable. The characters said the f-word about six times in three pages.

I told him that he didn't need it because it looked like he was just using it for the sake of using it. He basically said I was wrong because he's in college, and he knows what he's talking about. I'm in college, too, and so I felt pretty strong with my argument, and I thought he kind of sucked.

Anyway, the big thing is that you could tell the word was just dropped in. It didn't define his characters. It made them seem uniform and indistinguishable. The story lost me right there.

So, to me, I say that you can use if it's going to help you define a particular character and the word is the best way to do it. Just don't show off with it. Using something just because you can is blatantly obvious. And annoying.

[Joyeaux Garde]

I'm not sure if what I'm going to jot here is "fact", but isn't it true that perhaps 80% of our cuss-words today have been around since Shakespeare's time? Also, in Shakespeare's plays themselves, aren't there a lot of plays off words and vulgarities, disguised so the "commoners" might "get it" but the "gentry" wouldn't blush?

I remember reading something too about Charles Dickens facing a lot of criticism for OLIVER TWIST because he painted such "realistic" slum characters in Sykes, Fagin, and Nancy. And this without the swearing!

I guess it really wasn't till CATCH-22 and CATCHER IN THE RYE that any real dialogue/experience lines were crossed -- and even then, the distinct "voices" of Yossarian and Holden Caulfield were what made those books groundbreaking and entertaining reads. Though to use those "voices" now wouldn't be so ground-breaking, would it?

In the end, I guess it depends. On the author. On the subject matter. I'll say this though (since gangsters have been brought up a couple times). I think we can all agree when it comes to vulgarities, Pacino's SCARFACE takes the cake. But he's a buffoon in compare to any of James Cagney's. (And Sykes is still the most frightening "thug" character I've ever read.)

[ixchel]

In my critique group I get comments that I can't use certain words or phrases and still have the book be YA. I disagree. Some of the more recent YA's use the f-word and other words that I didn't see ten years ago. It depends on the book. Alot of the recent YA's have swear words, especially the reality books. In my local Borders there's a sign posted warning parents that the YA section has mature material.

[emsuniverse]

Okay, I use swear words in my ya novel. However, I do limit it to a few very select scenes and they are used when I feel it's absolutely necessary - and, for the most part, are said by one of the adults (the "bad guy") in the story. He uses damn, sh-t and the infamous f word. I almost had him using the c one, but I decided to use a nicer term instead. Although this character would probably use the C word, I couldn't bring myself to type it.

[Melissa_Marr]

I was concerned about this in my book(s), but my editor(s) assured me that appropriate use of these words wasn't an issue. My 1st YA has two uses of f-ck. In both cases, the characters are in the sort of temper where the lack of swearing would be more shocking than the inclusion of it. Neither my US nor my UK editor have suggested removing these words. I asked. I'm not sure about the editors at the other foreign publishers, as we haven't gotten the translation notes yet, but I'm not anticipating much concern in most of the other nations either.

Words have power. Words that carry weight like that can be used for emphasis in YA as well as in adult, imho. I wouldn't use them often or randomly, but there are times when a word with kick is appropriate. That includes cuss words, in my opinion.

Just my .02.

[stephblake24]

Melissa,
Just wanted you to know that I have followed your publishing journey via RV's blog and your own beautiful website and blog, and although I am so jealous I could barf, I am also extremely happy for you! Excited to see the book, also!

[stephblake24]

Don't get me started on my use of MILF. People were forming a lynch mob. Not really, but it was scary.

[Momento Mori]

If you're going to use the f-word then I think it needs to be believable in that you have to believe the character using it. Some teenagers use the f-word for effect or to try and deliberately shock and with some teens, every other word out of their mouth is four-lettered, so it can become like babble or a character trait if used credibly in writing. If the writing's good, then it will work but if the writing's bad, then it just makes it more boring.

[popmuze]

:) great debate, especially the risk factor of including profanity in your YA novel - being that it probably wont get on a school reading list.

Isn't this the major point of this debate? Does anyone know what percentage of YA sales come from these schools you'd be eliminating? Not to mention Target and Walmart if they found out about it?

Language issues and sex scene issues are two of the things that make me second guess doing a YA book that might involve them. You've always got your 7th Grade English teacher looking over your shoulder.

[Melissa_Marr]

. . . I have followed your publishing journey via RV's blog and your own beautiful website and blog . . . extremely happy for you! Excited to see the book, also!
Thanks, Steph. I'm glad you like the site, too. My web guy, Theo, has discovered flaws in it of late & is off fixing it, but I still think it looks lovely. He does great graphics.

Isn't this the major point of this debate? Does anyone know what percentage of YA sales come from these schools you'd be eliminating? Not to mention Target and Walmart if they found out about it?

Language issues and sex scene issues are two of the things that make me second guess doing a YA book that might involve them. You've always got your 7th Grade English teacher looking over your shoulder.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I didn't think in terms of the Target/Walmart sales when I wrote--and still don't. Perhaps I'll lose a percentage of my sales by writing a book that they won't carry, but I'm not writing for them. I wrote with a specific audience in mind. To tell the story I wanted to tell, for the readers I wanted to reach, I believe that the uses of those words--among other things--was necessary to create verisimilitude. To tell the story as truly as I could, I needed a few stronger words & elements that might disqualify me from Walmart. It's a choice.

If the next texts don't require these traits, cool, they can hang out in Walmart. It's about the story first though; at least, that's my theory. I don't think that changing a text for that percentage--no matter what it is--is something I could do.

But like all things, mine is just one possible answer. There are surely merits to the precise opposite path & to those paths in between.

regards,

Melissa

[Grey Malkin]

If Walmart is anything like ASDA over here (owned by Walmart) the publisher would make so little per unit sold that it's better NOT to have your book on their shelves - unless your royalty is a set price per book, rather than percentage of the sale.

[AnneMarble]

If Walmart is anything like ASDA over here (owned by Walmart) the publisher would make so little per unit sold that it's better NOT to have your book on their shelves - unless your royalty is a set price per book, rather than percentage of the sale.
I don't know how much the publishers make per unit sold at Wal-Mart. However, from what I have heard, Wal-Mart can have a huge impact on sales (because of volume). There was a case where an author's new romance novel wasn't picked up by most Wal-Mart chains (because one of the plot elements was deemed "controversial"), and it resulted in 20,000 fewer copies in her print run! :cry: Apparently, some publishers are even letting Wal-Mart have a say in cover art, etc. Ick.

That said, most of the Wal-Marts I've visited don't carry all that much YA fiction, except a few top titles. So I don't see that whether or not they carry the book would be a major issue unless you happened to have a book they might carry.

[Cassiopeia]

One of my pet peeves is the F-word...I mean imagine if we actually didn't assume everyone uses it! It really chaps my hide that I can't watch a movie but what it is in there somewhere for pg-13 and good lord...cover my ears if the movie is rated R. I mean come on...

Imagine if we wrote books that found a way to get the same intensity through a good use of the descriptions that didn't use it!

[Grey Malkin]

I can understand it being an issue with young readers, and young movie goers, but I was watching the Kerrang music channel two nights ago at around 10:45 at night and they were cutting all kinds out. Not just swear words, but in Marilyn Manson's "Dope Show" video they bleeped the word "queers" and pixellated his mouth!!! The also cut the scene of the security guards/paramilitary types kissing each other. Who are these people that think an adult heavy metal audience need protecting from even slightly suggestive words?

Grrrrrr.

[popmuze]

The other part of my post concerned the idea that schools wouldn't buy it either, if the subject matter or language was too suggestive. And eliminating the school market has to cut into potential profitability.

It's probably the main reason I shy away from writing another YA novel. It feels too much like doing an Afterschool Special on TV (if those are still on) or something for the Disney channel.

[moondance]

The other part of my post concerned the idea that schools wouldn't buy it either, if the subject matter or language was too suggestive. And eliminating the school market has to cut into potential profitability.


That might be a concern for me if I were writing for a younger age group, but not the YA market. By this time, how many kids are actually borrowing from their school library anyway? I certainly wasn't. School librarians have a limited budget so what are the chances of them ordering in your book anyway if they don't know anything about it? Here in the UK there are 10,000 books for children published every YEAR - say 2,000 of them are YA. My school library buys about 10 YA books each year.

Besides, I don't consider profitability when I'm writing something I love. If I do, it kills the creative process.

[Melissa_Marr]

The other part of my post concerned the idea that schools wouldn't buy it either, if the subject matter or language was too suggestive. And eliminating the school market has to cut into potential profitability.


I've had a face-to-face meeting with the School & Library Division (their request) at my US house and a number of follow-up conversations so they could best represent me for their sales purposes. They have expressed no concerns what-so-ever about marketing the books, despite the language & other potential issues in content. They're actually ridiculously enthusiastic.

I'm sure that a few uses of the f-word might eliminate some libraries, but like the Walmart issue, it 's not enough to make me change--more importantly, it's not enough to upset/concern/alarm my publisher(s). They know what they're doing.

Write the story you need to write. If your editor (or agent) thinks you need to reign it in, s/he will tell you that. If Marketing or School & Library or Subrights think you need to reign it in, they will tell your editor. Then, you can decide what to do.

Worrying about marketing before creation & revision seems like the sort of thing that can stifle voice.

Just my opinion, of course.

Melissa

[ixchel]

I totally agree Melissa. Worrying about what others will think about your novel just stifles you. I should know. I use to worry about offending others in my church with my writing. Now I figure if they don't like they don't need to read it.

[misswriter]

It won't stop a young adult from picking it up and reading it, but schools are less likely to publish it. Most swears are okay, f*ck is not usually (as per school standards).

[Valona]

One of my pet peeves is the F-word...I mean imagine if we actually didn't assume everyone uses it! It really chaps my hide that I can't watch a movie but what it is in there somewhere for pg-13 and good lord...cover my ears if the movie is rated R. I mean come on...

Imagine if we wrote books that found a way to get the same intensity through a good use of the descriptions that didn't use it!

I totally agree.

Let's look at this from still another angle.

I won't argue whether-or-not it is permissible, allowable, or otherwise possible to write using the infamous "F-word," or that by using the infamous "F-word," or even depictions of sexual encounters, we can enhance (in some rare instances) a fictional characte's personality (which I think has been adequately demonstrated here is not necessarily the case).

What I think we need to consider isn't can we, or is it allowable, but SHOULD we.


We are adults, or at least most of us are, or think we are. Our children, and other people's children see this garbage constantly on TV, movies, in music, in their every day schooling experiences, etc. They are deluged in this kind of filth. So, I ask, should we contribute to the deluge?

Why can't literature be an escape from that filth?

I think as adults, we have a responsibility to uplift our children, not encourage them to wallow in the mire of human debris and filth. I would like to see writers unite to curb the filth of pornograpy, fowl language, etc. that our children are exposed to. As writers, we can write good literature that our children will love, without all the filth. It can be done. It's been demonstrated as possible. We can do it. Use your creativity to work around those kinds of literary crutches.

Is anyone with me?

[Jimmer]

Hi Valona,

I certainly understand where you are coming from and I appreciate your concern. The language, violence and situations in prime time TV (and especially daytime TV) disgust me to a large degree. Let's not even talk about movies. However...

I'm not sure the best approach is to hide our children from the realities of the world we live in. Do you prohibit your kids from watching any tv for fear a bad word or suggestive plot line might well slip in? Do you keep the daily newspapers from their eyes in order to prevent them from knowing that bad people exist? Do you make sure none of our darling little ones wander anywhere near the golf course on sunny summer weekends where they are quite likely to hear any number of expletives from frustrated golfers? Do you really think that keeping the bad words from the books you write will keep the words from ever being heard by your readers? And when they do hear those words for the first time (and you know they will), how will they know how to react? Will they ask their more informed pre teen friends what those words mean? Is that the first impression you prefer them to have of salty language? Do you prefer they learn the "truth" on the street? And if the kid they learn it from is what they think is a "cool" kid, will they be more likely to use those words?

The basic question becomes, will our children be any better prepared to survive in the only world we have by being sheltered from its harsh realities or is it better to educate them as to right and wrong and let them judge for themselves which words and behaviors are acceptable in a civilized society?

The problem with censorship is it assumes that by removing some distasteful things the public will somehow be saved from having to deal with any distasteful things. I'll tell you right now, the kids I knew who went to private Catholic Schools growing up, which I suspect their parents put them in to shelter their ears and protect their souls, had without a doubt the most foul mouths and expressed the most dangerous behaviors of any public school kids I ever ran across. My point is, I think teaching proper values at home is far better than trying (in vain, no doubt) to prevent any evil from crossing the path of our kids today. Give them solid values and let them decide and judge when they see and hear things they know are not right. Don't hide the truth, reveal it for what it is.

So, no, I guess I am not with you on this subject. You cannot successfully wrap your children in protective barriers and expect them to develop the facility to see right and wrong as adults. Teach them the words. Explain why they are not acceptable. And then let them live their lives with strong moral principles.

Kids are smarter and more resilient than we think. They do not need our protection as much as they need a sound moral foundation and good role models.

[Valona]

I'm not talking censorship, or restricting what our kids see and hear, I'm just asking whether we should contribute to the murk our kids already live in. They see enough filth every day. Should we add to that?

I say "NO!" Let's be the mature ones here. Let's write good literature but leave out the filth.

[Jimmer]

People who tell me what I should or shouldn't do, what I should or shouldn't say, what I should or shouldn't write or see....these people frighten me. They do.

It's a shame we live in a world filled with horror, violence, perversity, and death. I wish it weren't true. Closing my eyes or ears never made it go away before. Even though I choose never to use foul language, others do use it. I am not wrong in hearing those words. The problem isn't with hearing or reading them. It's in using them. Because I have strong values, I choose not to use them. Because I have strong values I am not threatened by those who feel the need to use them. They are words, nothing more, often indicating character or lack thereof, in the same way designer clothing can reveal more about what's within than without. I think $300 ripped up jeans are obscene. I would never buy them. Others would disagree. Some might even argue they can't live without them. Are they wrong? No, they just disagree. It's not the same thing. I would defend their right to make bad purchases in the same way I would defend my right to choose against it.

I hope my kids have those same values because I won't always be there to shelter their eyes and screen their books.

How does it go?....teach a man to fish and he will never go hungry.... or is it hide the fish from his eyes so his growling stomach will never know how close it was to getting fed???

[RedMolly]

*randomly popping in from another forum, intrigued by the thread title*

I would argue that a few F-bombs are far less "filthy" than a story that glorifies consumerism and contemporary beauty culture. I would a million times rather have my kids read (or even say!) the F-word, or read about sex or drug use or violence or other "disturbing" situations, than turn into soulless creatures whose only concerns are the name on the butt pocket of their jeans or the mods on their car.

If the story calls for a particular word, then I think it's a copout not to use it. If the story you want to tell excludes certain words or situations, then that's lovely... but don't tell other people that they're "filthy" or "promoting pornography" for having a different story and telling it in a different way.

[moondance]

What I think we need to consider isn't can we, or is it allowable, but SHOULD we.


We are adults, or at least most of us are, or think we are. Our children, and other people's children see this garbage constantly on TV, movies, in music, in their every day schooling experiences, etc. They are deluged in this kind of filth. So, I ask, should we contribute to the deluge?


It is not my responsibility to educate teenagers about swearing. I also take offence to the idea that using a swear word in a YA novel is 'contributing to the filth'. My books promote understanding, compassion and responsibility. My characters sometimes swear. The two are not mutually incompatible.

I totally agree with RedMolly. I do not consider the use of the F word to be 'filth' in itself. I consider the gross consumerism of our societies (and I mean particularly Western culture) to be 'filth'. I consider the fact that pupils can speak to teachers how they like and not be punished for it as 'filth'. I consider the marketing of junk food and high heels to 8-year-olds as 'filth'. I consider the fact that the US has not signed up to the Kyoto agreement as 'filth'.

The F word has been around for centuries and will stay around for a long time to come. I think there are far more important things that we could be concentrating on as writers.

I am a writer, not a teacher. It is not my job to take the moral high road.

[andracill]

To me it all comes down to why each of us writes...and the fact that all those answers are probably different (to a certain extent) is why there will be books for every taste out there -- we hope! I heard a man speak once...he'd been horribly abused as a child, physically, sexually, and emotionally. He said books were his escape -- and his home. They offered him other worlds, even if it was the house next door. IMO, that's perhaps what we're all aiming for -- and a few f-words won't take that away from kids who are drawn to the story we write. Just my penny's worth (if that).

[Jimmer]

I'm writing an YA with a teenage boy protagonist, and have found it to be a most interesting process, particularly in the emotionally loaded scenes. He's far from being an angel, but I personally wince at the F-word, so I've found myself building intensity in other ways. I think it can be done, and a less overt way of building/releasing tension/anger is, at least to me, more effective than making my main character say F-.
Just my opinion:)

And that is certainly one way to accomplish an objective.

I should think few readers care about what makes the author wince. More important, I would imagine, is how they believe a character would express himself. That should be your real concern. How would this particular character express his tension/anger, author preferences aside?

How a fictional character speaks and how the author speaks are two entirely different beasts. Unless your book is an autobiography.

[katefall]

This is why a YA board is so great. I've wrestled with this topic for a while.

My novel is for the younger YA crowd (13 year olds) but I have no doubt that one of my characters, who has a crappy family, would be a curser. He is Mexican-American, though, so he curses in Spanish. Also, one of my other main characters gets on his case about it, but gradually picks up the cursing himself. So I guess my method was to use this friendly tension we see here and incorporate it into my characters. I wonder if I can actually get away with the cursing in Spanish thing... I suppose I'll find out.

So if you're undecided, maybe your characters can fight it out.;)

[maddythemad]

I'm kind of writing a Gossip Girl-esque novel, so I seriously doubt it would get on school reading lists no matter how little I used the f- word. ;) That said, I DO use the f- word, but only when I think it's contributing to the scene. I try not to swear for the sake of swearing.

[Lisa McMann]

I'm new, and I hesitate to jump into a controversy on my second day here, but this is an intriguing thread.

My upper YA novel has the F-word in it multiple times. It's in casual conversation between students, and it's used in anger as well as in laughter at times.

Why? Because that's what those characters would say.

We create characters. If we know our characters well, we can't really control their language if we want them to be real. My characters have crappy lives. Their parents are dead-beats. They've probably been saying the f-word since they were ten. Who am I to censor my characters? It seems like that would stifle them. It would almost seem ridiculous, actually, to think they wouldn't cuss. It wouldn't work in the story.

My agent has never mentioned it, and I haven't questioned him on whether or not he thinks it's too much -- frankly, if editors want me to change a few words to tone it down, I'd be willing to do it. But I wrote it being true to my characters. That's my job. And it worked -- it got me an agent, anyway.

If you know your YA character inside and out, you'll know instinctively what he or she will say in any situation. Sometimes it's the f-word, and sometimes it's 'Jiminy Christmas!' instead of 'Jesus Christ!'

Some will have sex, and some won't. Some will do drugs and some won't. I don't think it's really possible to surprise teenagers -- they don't want fluff, they want real. They want to read about kids like them.

So, content all depends on the characters you write -- that's just my opinion, of course. And I respect people whose views on the subject differ from mine. :)

[eleniandthecards]

The F-bomb was very apparent in the Gossip Girl series. I personally disliked the Gossip Girl series because it was so shallow and secular- people could take it the wrong way, like this is what teenagers are supposed to do.

[Cassidy]

I use the odd swear word in an occasional scene. I don't plan it or avoid it; I try to just write the way I hear the characters' voices. When I edit, I cut any that I think aren't really necessary.

I find when I read, I don't really notice whether swearing is or isn't used-- just whether the characters are convincing. I guess I agree with both sides a bit here-- that creativity can avoid some swearing, that too much swearing can detract from a novel, and that sometimes it is needed to reflect a particular reality or voice. If that means some won't read my work, I guess I can live with that.

Although, I'm curious about how many of my swear words will still be in the final published version. I start editing in the new year (book comes out next fall) so I'm interested to see if my editor makes any comments about this or not. I don't think the F-word is in there more than twice anyway-- it wouldn't kill me to take it out but I'd rather not!

--Cassidy

[Canada James]

There isn't much that you can't do in YA fiction these days. The "f" word is pretty tame, and most high schools won't even bat an eyelash. You won't get your book into elementary schools, or some middle schools, or any fundamentalist school, but if you're writing YA you probably aren't aiming at those markets anyway.

Pick up the Gossip Girls some day.

James


You may well limit your markets.

The usual genius-exception applies. Just be prepared for bunches of schools and libraries to pass on acquiring your book. Which may well influence a publisher's decision to acquire your book.

This is an area to discuss with your editor. Is the word so completely necessary to your story that no other will do?

[Canada James]

Kind of like the kid who ran up to my dog in the park and asked me, "What kind of dog is this Mister?"
"A Shih Tzu," I replied.
The kid blinked, then turned to her mom and asked, "Is that a bad word?"


That reminds me. My eight-year-old son was given a rock collection by his grandfather, and while I drove he read the names of the rocks, calcite, quartz, jasper, druze and the very last one was FUXITE. My wife and I both looked at each other. "Excuse me son? What did you just say?" "Fuxite." "Son, I don't think you are pronouncing that correctly. Let me see." Sure enough, it was Fuxite!!!

So um, just sprinkle a few Fuxites in your work!! And don't forget SCHIST, that's another rock.

[drybonesreborn]

I thought you couldn't really swear in Young Adult. Hence 'young'. Unless it covers ages 13-15. Any ideas?

[moondance]

I thought you couldn't really swear in Young Adult. Hence 'young'. Unless it covers ages 13-15. Any ideas?

Young adult covers the 12/13+ age range. Anything younger is Middle Grade (8-12)
So you can most certainly swear in YA books.

[Writer14]

Last year, in middle school, there were plenty of books that used the F-word. In the libraries all around where I live, you can find books that curse, consistently, in the Young Adult section. And... in my highschool, I think a majority of the books have the f-word in it. So... I mean, I don't use it because the choice hasn't come up yet. I haven't really the need for it... soo...

[drybonesreborn]

Young adult covers the 12/13+ age range. Anything younger is Middle Grade (8-12)
So you can most certainly swear in YA books.

From what I know, the kids at my schools didn't swear untill they got to highschool. If they did swear in 8th grade, it was 'he--" and 'f'. That's about it. I've read young adult that's only had one 'h' in it and several OH MY g Which is swearing by some,and not others.

[drybonesreborn]

I'm not talking censorship, or restricting what our kids see and hear, I'm just asking whether we should contribute to the murk our kids already live in. They see enough filth every day. Should we add to that?

I say "NO!" Let's be the mature ones here. Let's write good literature but leave out the filth.

A toast. *clanks glasses* Here! Here! We can make books we want our kids to read. ( I don't have any, but I plan on adopting once I'm out of college have a home. Still want to write good stories.)

[Shady Lane]

It's not unheard of completely--I know that it shows up in David Levithan and Rachel Cohn's "Nick & Norah's Infinite Playlist," and also John Green's "Looking for Alaska."

Looking for Alaska--one of my FAVORITE books.

Almost all the books I really enjoy have teenagers speaking and acting realistically, and that does include the f-word. I usually use it where my insticts tell me, and then replace about half with a d-n and such. Just to keep it somewhat PG-13.

[Jordygirl]

I like what my cousin told me about "bad words" in stories. She said, "I don't think a writer should be afraid of language." So basically, if it fits the characters, if it fits the setting, if it fits the situation, okay. But don't have every other word f--- or s--- because that's just a little too over the top.
Plus, some readers (me included) don't really like cussing, so if there's too much extra cuss words, they (me) just won't read the book.

[ClaudiaGray]

As Jordygirl said, it depends on the story. In some stories, obscene language would be out of place; in others, its absence would be out of place.

I wrote Evernight without much swearing. It's first-person POV of a character who wouldn't talk that way, generally; she is a shy, bookish girl who is more used to 19th-century novels than the average high-school locker-room talk. Even so, when we got the editing stage, my editor asked me to remove a couple of the harder words -- she warned that sometimes librarians and teachers will be less likely to stock a book for young people if it uses such language, particularly casually. I have only her word for it but no reason to doubt her.

That said, at least one other book my editor has also worked on, the excellent Good Girls by Laura Ruby, has a lot of profane language and is centered on a sexually explicit plot; a young girl performs a sex act on her boyfriend at a party, someone takes a picture with their cell-phone camera and, a few e-mails later, the girl is the laughingstock of the school and the internet. The book is about how the girl retains her strength during this, how she makes up her own mind about whether or not she's comfortable with her sexual experience and about the way people deal differently with concepts of shame/exposure/etc. in the era of the Internet. It's a very well-told story, but a story that absolutely could not be told without a lot of frank language. My editor left it all intact there, and rightfully so.

In short -- if your story demands the language, use it, and know that a good editor will back you up. But where your story doesn't demand the language, either cut it entirely or cut it down; you'll be doing yourself a favor commercially and doing yourself no harm artistically.

[Zoombie]

Or, if you are writing sci-fi or fantasy, you can just make swear words up. I have some nerds in my story use a slang languige that was made up entirely for the Planescape setting of Dungions and Dragons. Hehehe...nerds. I use the cant every once and a while, cutter, no need to rattle your bone-box about it overmuch. Anyone got some jink? I think I'm gonna get a little rummy later today, hit the bub abit. Chordwise, ain't it?

[drybonesreborn]

This brings up an idea. "Should books have book rating?"

[Evaine]

You mean like some films have labels that say "Contains some swearing and mild nudity"?

I would think that normally the subject matter, in the blurb, would give some indication of whether there was going to be bad language/racism/other nastiness, without any need for anything else.

[jonereb]

Frowned upon, isn't it?

Maprilynne

Certainly by me, FWIW. I don't like to see that word in novels I read, much less what my kids read.

[drybonesreborn]

You mean like some films have labels that say "Contains some swearing and mild nudity"?

I would think that normally the subject matter, in the blurb, would give some indication of whether there was going to be bad language/racism/other nastiness, without any need for anything else.
Does it cost extra to post it?