View Full Version : Pray for our President not on him!
writerterri
10-06-2006, 12:17 PM
That's right, that what I said!
Why? Because I can.
When was the last time someone here prayed for him? Huh?
He is our President after all and this country was founded on Christianity by Christians.
He is human you know.
:Wha: :e2sling:
That's right, that what I said!
Why? Because I can.
I've never actually sat on the President, so I don't think I've ever "prayed" on him. ;)
When was the last time someone here prayed for him? Huh?
Me, last night, actually. I pray for all the leaders of the world to make wise decisions, keep the peace, and protect us from harm.
He is our President after all and this country was founded on Christianity by Christians.
I agree with one part of that: He is our President.
However, this country was not "founded on Christianity" nor was it "founded by Christians."
That's a poorly researched myth spread by far right wing religious conservatives who are trying to push an agenda of muddying the waters between separation of Church and state.
Granted, this is not to say that there weren't many Christians, both Protestant and Catholic, who lived in early America. Indeed, Pennsylvania was named for Quaker William Penn. However, to say that our most influential Founding Fathers were "Christians" or that they crafted our Constitution, Bill of Rights, or even our Declaration of Independence on a blatant foundation of Christianity is a gross distortion of history. Indeed, they gave a "nod to God," so to speak, but didn't actively push a particular religion into our laws.
Washington was a freemason and never openly (to my knowledge) ever declared which specific religion he followed.
Jefferson abhored what Christianity had become in his day. "I have examined all the known superstitions of the world and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson
Considering that he and Adams were two of the most influential figures in the construction of our Constitution, it's quite a Grand Canyon-like leap in logic to say that our Constitution was "founded on Christianity."
Adams was so-so on Christianity. He liked some of what Jesus had taught, but he was certainly not a practicing Christian.
Franklin was so-so on it, as well. It's also my understanding that he did not identify himself as a Christian, either.
James Madison's views on Christianity mirrored Jefferson's.
The majority of our most influential Founding Fathers were deists, not theists, who were influenced heavily by the Enlightenment movement, which is why Jefferson, Adams, and Madison quoted Locke so much.
Our Founding Fathers were trying to escape theocracy, not create a new one. They knew how important religion and faith were to people, so they created a system of laws which respected people's right to worship, but didn't endorse and wasn't specifically founded on any particular set of religious beliefs.
Not trying to be argumentative. Just trying to be accurate.
However, your message is a good one.
dclary
10-06-2006, 12:57 PM
That's right, that what I said!
Why? Because I can.
When was the last time someone here prayed for him? Huh?
He is our President after all and this country was founded on Christianity by Christians.
He is human you know.
:Wha: :e2sling:
Last night in church I prayed for the Amish community, and the emotional hardships they suffered in that despicable act. I praised the love and forgiveness they've shown through this ordeal and that America can see God's love through how they handle this crisis.
But I forgot to pray for the President.
I will tonight.
God bless you, Terri.
dclary
10-06-2006, 01:00 PM
Spork, I think what you're trying to say is that our founding fathers recognized that while religion was an important part of many of their constituents' lives, it was not necessarily an important part of their own. And because of this, they strove to create a governmental structure that neither imposed religious belief nor stymied it. Which is to say that not only was America founded on Christian beliefs, but all other beliefs as well.
I was with you up until the last sentence, which is just a bit mendacious.
poetinahat
10-06-2006, 01:12 PM
Just a thought: It doesn't matter what religion the President is. It's possible for Christians to pray for anyone, regardless of the subject's faith (or lack thereof).
In my church (Anglican), the congregation prays for world and local leaders as a matter of routine in most services.
I'd prefer that the Queen of England were not our Head of State, but that's another issue. Maybe I'll host a tea party... Boston style.
robeiae
10-06-2006, 08:52 PM
I was with you up until the last sentence, which is just a bit mendacious.That's not particularly sagacious...
Shadow_Ferret
10-06-2006, 09:24 PM
C'mon guys. I just have this little crappy Webster's Pocket Dictionary!
P.H.Delarran
10-06-2006, 09:55 PM
Thanks for the reminder, Terri.
writerterri
10-06-2006, 11:41 PM
I've never actually sat on the President, so I don't think I've ever "prayed" on him. ;)
Me, last night, actually. I pray for all the leaders of the world to make wise decisions, keep the peace, and protect us from harm.
I agree with one part of that: He is our President.
However, this country was not "founded on Christianity" nor was it "founded by Christians."
That's a poorly researched myth spread by far right wing religious conservatives who are trying to push an agenda of muddying the waters between separation of Church and state.
Granted, this is not to say that there weren't many Christians, both Protestant and Catholic, who lived in early America. Indeed, Pennsylvania was named for Quaker William Penn. However, to say that our most influential Founding Fathers were "Christians" or that they crafted our Constitution, Bill of Rights, or even our Declaration of Independence on a blatant foundation of Christianity is a gross distortion of history. Indeed, they gave a "nod to God," so to speak, but didn't actively push a particular religion into our laws.
Washington was a freemason and never openly (to my knowledge) ever declared which specific religion he followed.
Jefferson abhored what Christianity had become in his day. "I have examined all the known superstitions of the world and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson
Considering that he and Adams were two of the most influential figures in the construction of our Constitution, it's quite a Grand Canyon-like leap in logic to say that our Constitution was "founded on Christianity."
Adams was so-so on Christianity. He liked some of what Jesus had taught, but he was certainly not a practicing Christian.
Franklin was so-so on it, as well. It's also my understanding that he did not identify himself as a Christian, either.
James Madison's views on Christianity mirrored Jefferson's.
The majority of our most influential Founding Fathers were deists, not theists, who were influenced heavily by the Enlightenment movement, which is why Jefferson, Adams, and Madison quoted Locke so much.
Our Founding Fathers were trying to escape theocracy, not create a new one. They knew how important religion and faith were to people, so they created a system of laws which respected people's right to worship, but didn't endorse and wasn't specifically founded on any particular set of religious beliefs.
Not trying to be argumentative. Just trying to be accurate.
However, your message is a good one.
I have to admit that I cannot compete with you on this issue, however you were gracious with me and you know your stuff.
I do have to say that it looks to the naked eye like when the constitution was "made", for lack of a better word, they did include God and the Bible as a basis, did they not? But that's not my rebuttal, I think.
In "God we trust" on the money and "created" equal.
Thanks!
Terri
MacAllister
10-07-2006, 12:02 AM
Mmm. While we're praying, I'd add the innocents of any faith or nationality, caught up in the current world conflicts.
SpookyWriter
10-07-2006, 12:18 AM
Mmm. While we're praying, I'd add the innocents of any faith or nationality, caught up in the current world conflicts.Good point, as usual Mac. But I won't pray for any leader who recklessly endangers the lives of his people by a folly of conflict with another country for glory (which will remain tarnished by the lies for invading another country).
Pray? Nyet! Better take a deep breath for humanity because your supposed god is just a myth like the WMD that precluded the deaths of many innocent people.
If our leader was in need of prayer then it is because the faith and belief in a tolerant society continues to be tested by war on ideology.
ETA: Dang, it's too early in my drunk to make any sense. Toodles...
MacAllister
10-07-2006, 12:24 AM
Spooky, if I may quote a long time member from a long time ago--cynicism is bad mental hygiene.
I won't pretend to know who has a real god, or what that god thinks--but I can tell you I've seen prayer answered. Whether that's about god, or about focused human will, I don't know or care...and if more of us really could believe, focus and pray for peace between all god's children, then I believe amazing things could happen.
Papa'sLiver
10-07-2006, 12:28 AM
Being a buddhist, I pray in a much different way. Our president is neither evil, nor good. He just is...
... a big f'n idiot.
SpookyWriter
10-07-2006, 12:32 AM
Spooky, if I may quote a long time member from a long time ago--cynicism is bad mental hygiene.
I won't pretend to know who has a real god, or what that god thinks--but I can tell you I've seen prayer answered. Whether that's about god, or about focused human will, I don't know or care...and if more of us really could believe, focus and pray for peace between all god's children, then I believe amazing things could happen.Mac, I hope you know that I would never personally bad mouth any one persons right to belief in prayer or a god.
I have only a belief in humans. We (humans) need to get past the ideals of a perfect world after death and concentrate on the only true physical plane of existence. It's nice to think that life after death is better than living on earth, but that's a cop out. Do the best possible to help improve life here and if there is something better after death then great. But don't count on it as an excuse to not participate in the real world.
P.S. Have a safe trip and be careful of those gremlins on the plane.
ETA: Dang, two misspelled words and a bottle of barcardi later....what a freckin life!
Bravo
10-07-2006, 12:35 AM
Spooky, if I may quote a long time member from a long time ago--cynicism is bad mental hygiene.
I won't pretend to know who has a real god, or what that god thinks--but I can tell you I've seen prayer answered. Whether that's about god, or about focused human will, I don't know or care...and if more of us really could believe, focus and pray for peace between all god's children, then I believe amazing things could happen.
that post is really disturbing, mac....
considering your new user title and sig are about azazel.
:ROFL:
eta: please dont do any ritual sacrifices to curse me. i dont have time to fight demons right now. thank you.
blacbird
10-07-2006, 12:39 AM
I pray for him every day. I don't anything to happen that would cause him to cease being President prior to January 20, 2009. The alternative . . . know what I mean?
caw.
SC Harrison
10-07-2006, 01:13 AM
How about this:
"Lord, I know we haven't spoken for some time, and I never did properly thank you for helping me find my car keys, but I have another humble request. Could you please make sure President Bush doesn't have any more bright ideas for the next couple of years? And while you're at it, please make sure his Veto stamp is on top of the desk, not in the back of a drawer. Amen."
"Wait, don't hang up! I just remembered—you never got back with me about that girlfriend thing. I'm not trying to push you here, I just wanted to remind you that I ain't getting any younger, if you know what I mean. Anyway, you know, let me know something as soon as you come up with a plan. That is all. Amen."
nicegrrl
10-07-2006, 01:22 AM
I pray for our president to grow a brain and lose the arrogance.
Bravo
10-07-2006, 01:30 AM
you really need to change your screenname.
:)
dclary
10-07-2006, 01:41 AM
On an aside, I thought Constantine's prayer, and God's answer at the 3rd act climax of the film Constantine was outstanding.
writerterri
10-07-2006, 05:22 AM
Here's how I look at it. (Since I do believe in God). He's incharge of all and he put the government in place and the leaders in their positions. He knows them past present and future and he sees all and knows all. So if I hate a president that he's put into place who am I to shake my fist at God?
Maybe I'm too passive? I'm not sure.
My prayer for our president is that God gives him the wisdom and skill to lead this country according to God's will and not his own and that he seeks God's face in all decisions he makes for the future of the USA. I pray that our president is lead by Holy hands and all knowing eyes and that God would give him the strength to carry out God's will and his duty and be honest and true to himself and to the people. I pray that his mind is clear to hear God's words and that the presidents integrity would be for the good of all and not just for tv.
Amen.
English Dave
10-07-2006, 05:32 AM
Here's how I look at it. (Since I do believe in God). He's incharge of all and he put the government in place and the leaders in their positions. He knows them past present and future and he sees all and knows all. So if I hate a president that he's put into place who am I to shake my fist at God?
Maybe I'm too passive? I'm not sure.
My prayer for our president is that God gives him the wisdom and skill to lead this country according to God's will and not his own and that he seeks God's face in all decisions he makes for the future of the USA. I pray that our president is lead by Holy hands and all knowing eyes and that God would give him the strength to carry out God's will and his duty and be honest and true to himself and to the people. I pray that his mind is clear to hear God's words and that the presidents integrity would be for the good of all and not just for tv.
Amen.
I'm going to throw up out of principle.
writerterri
10-07-2006, 05:39 AM
I'm going to throw up out of principle.
Need a bucket? :tongue
robeiae
10-07-2006, 05:40 AM
I'm going to throw up out of principle.I'd prefer it if you were out of pea soup when you threw up.
English Dave
10-07-2006, 05:46 AM
I'd prefer it if you were out of pea soup when you threw up.
Carrot hater!
writerterri
10-07-2006, 05:51 AM
Carrot hater!
Tomato slinger!
robeiae
10-07-2006, 05:55 AM
Tomato slinger!Throw your chest out when you say that, Elvira.
English Dave
10-07-2006, 05:56 AM
Tomato slinger!
Snork! half a cup of coffee wasted.
writerterri
10-07-2006, 06:02 AM
At least I'm a forgiving, politically lost, housewife and I admit it. :D
writerterri
10-07-2006, 06:03 AM
Throw your chest out when you say that, Elvira.
I did! Didn't you feel the wind?
FatTire
10-07-2006, 06:05 AM
I pray for him to leave office. Does that count?
I still think you're hot Terri! Vote for me for MOD!
English Dave
10-07-2006, 06:19 AM
At least I'm a forgiving, politically lost, housewife and I admit it. :D
Ooooh you liar!
writerterri
10-07-2006, 06:36 AM
I pray for him to leave office. Does that count?
I still think you're hot Terri! Vote for me for MOD! ~giggle~ No it doesn't count!
MOD
Mother Of all Dorks?
K.
Fat Tire- 1 The other guy- 0
writerterri
10-07-2006, 06:38 AM
Ooooh you liar!
Forgiven liar. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_4_10.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSYYYYYYYYUS)
http://www.smileycentral.com/sig.jsp?pc=ZSzeb098&pp=ZSYYYYYYYYUS (http://smiley.smileycentral.com/download/index.jhtml?partner=ZSzeb098_ZSYYYYYYYYUS&utm_id=7926)
SpookyWriter
10-07-2006, 06:43 AM
I did! Didn't you feel the wind?I happen to be downwind of a water treatment facility. Ha! Cutting wind again are we? :D
writerterri
10-07-2006, 06:50 AM
I happen to be downwind of a water treatment facility. Ha! Cutting wind again are we? :D
Spooky! Real princesses don't fart. :tongue
Being a buddhist, I pray in a much different way. Our president is neither evil, nor good. He just is...
... a big f'n idiot.
:ROFL:
My-Immortal
10-07-2006, 10:45 AM
It's nice to think that life after death is better than living on earth, but that's a cop out. Do the best possible to help improve life here and if there is something better after death then great. But don't count on it as an excuse to not participate in the real world.
I'm not trying to be argumentative at all but how exactly is the belief in a heaven after death a cop out toward one's life here and now? I suppose it is possible that some people may act in such fashion, but do you believe that ALL people (that believe in heaven) behave that way?
Take care -
Wordworm
10-07-2006, 11:31 AM
hmmm...no wonder the Iraqis are having so much trouble understanding what Americans are talking about.
SC Harrison
10-07-2006, 02:37 PM
hmmm...no wonder the Iraqis are having so much trouble understanding what Americans are talking about.
"Excuse me, could you tell me how to get to the Hanging Gardens of Babylon?"
"Pardon?"
"The Han-ging Gar-dens of Ba-by-lon. Come on, I know you don't have the best of schools here, but it's one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, and that other guy told me it was down this street."
"Sir, I think you may..."
"Look, I don't have all day. I need to get a few pictures of this thing, and Alexander Hamilton here (snap snap) is pretty sure you know where it is."
*sigh* "Keep going down this street, then look up at the window boxes."
"Thanks! Have a nice day!"
writerterri
10-07-2006, 11:44 PM
I'm not trying to be argumentative at all but how exactly is the belief in a heaven after death a cop out toward one's life here and now? I suppose it is possible that some people may act in such fashion, but do you believe that ALL people (that believe in heaven) behave that way?
Take care -
I think he means it's a cop out for living the way you want down here then getting to go to heaven to live a better life.
But if you look at the Bible and what it says about heaven and actually getting in, it's a whole different story than just getting to live how you want to here then moving on to a better life.
I do, however, refuse to argue my point unless someone is really interested in learning my faith. I love people as a whole and it completely drains me to argue. I prefer to edify, not tare down.
Nice to see you IM!
writerterri
10-07-2006, 11:45 PM
hmmm...no wonder the Iraqis are having so much trouble understanding what Americans are talking about.
You mean it's not the language barrier? And all this time...
SpookyWriter
10-07-2006, 11:53 PM
I'm not trying to be argumentative at all but how exactly is the belief in a heaven after death a cop out toward one's life here and now? I suppose it is possible that some people may act in such fashion, but do you believe that ALL people (that believe in heaven) behave that way?
Take care -Need I cite historical references? Humans have thousands of years worth of religious edicts that have caused millions of deaths and suffering. There is no need for the brutality of faith that others impose of humans.
I deplore the idea that a holy war is an instrument to save humans from evil.
To this very day there are more conflicts and deaths in the name of god than ever. Bosnia, Sudan, Ethiopia, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Israel, are just a few hot sites for present and past religious conflicts that has and continues to cost lives.
What's the sense of it all?
janetbellinger
10-08-2006, 12:15 AM
This still does not prove that religion is evil, only that people have a tendency to use it in order to justify war.
Need I cite historical references? Humans have thousands of years worth of religious edicts that have caused millions of deaths and suffering. There is no need for the brutality of faith that others impose of humans.
I deplore the idea that a holy war is an instrument to save humans from evil.
To this very day there are more conflicts and deaths in the name of god than ever. Bosnia, Sudan, Ethiopia, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Israel, are just a few hot sites for present and past religious conflicts that has and continues to cost lives.
What's the sense of it all?
robeiae
10-08-2006, 12:50 AM
This still does not prove that religion is evil, only that people have a tendency to use it in order to justify war.Correct. Some people will use any tools available to fulfiill their personal quest for power. Religion can be such a tool.
maestrowork
10-08-2006, 12:55 AM
Religion is a great tool, maybe the BEST tool known to man.
robeiae
10-08-2006, 01:14 AM
Religion is a great tool, maybe the BEST tool known to man.Yet Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot, and Hitler did their best without it...
LightShadow
10-08-2006, 01:56 AM
I don't recall Bush ever cramming anything down anybody's throat, and personally I feel safer with a President that holds his Bible under his arm. As for those in opposition to our Christian heritage, think about this. Who is more irrational? A man who believes in a God he doesn't see? Or a man who's offended by a God he doesn't even believe in?
blacbird
10-08-2006, 03:32 AM
Wait a minute. The God I don't believe in is a just and loving God.
caw
maestrowork
10-08-2006, 07:53 AM
Yet Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot, and Hitler did their best without it...
They were their own religions. In China, for example, Mao was a God.
Here's how I look at it. (Since I do believe in God). He's incharge of all and he put the government in place and the leaders in their positions. He knows them past present and future and he sees all and knows all. So if I hate a president that he's put into place who am I to shake my fist at God?
I love ya, Terri but, as a fellow Christian, you've totally lost me on this.
You're basically saying that God's fixed our elections?
If He "put the government in place and the leaders in their positions," that means he put Nixon in place. He put Grant, a drunkard, in charge of our country. He put several freemasons in charge of our country. He put someone who hated Christianity in charge of the US at one point. It also means that He, in essence, led us into Vietnam. He put Gary Condit in office to cheat on his wife with an intern. It means that He thought there were WMDs in Iraq, too.
It means He put Mark Foley in Congress, to sexually harass young pages.
I seriously doubt that. I'm sure God cares who is elected, but I don't think He has much directly to do with which lever people pull in the voting booth, or the outcome of pregnant or dimpled chads. If He did, then that would eliminate free will, which would run counter to much of what is in the Bible about our power of choice.
And, if God fixes our elections, does that mean that He only looks out for the USA? That's pretty arrogant. So, that means that we're God's chosen people?
Not bloody likely. I imagine there are other nations and people He loves. If we're the only country He's looking out for, what does that say about the Jews, the Rwandans, the Serbs, etc.? Are they not worthy of His divine guidance and intervention?
God does not directly interfere with politics. If He did, then how do you explain the rises to power of Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler, Hussein? Does He not love the Jews or the Iraqis? Why would He put so many womanizers, and alcoholics, and liars, and sexual miscreants, and bigots in positions of power in our own government?
Heck, forget just governments. Why would He have made the hedonistic, whoring slutbag Alexander VI or the cruel Leo the Great popes, leaders of the Catholic church? Just because a person is in a position of power, and claims to be a Christian, does not mean that God put or even wants the person there, and it doesn't mean that the person is doing things according to His will, no matter how much they invoke His name and claim they are doing things in His name.
God has provided the tools for people to live right and be with Him one day. It is up to the individual whether or not they use the tools He's provided and follow the path He's laid out. He's given us what we need and pointed us in the direction we need to go. He doesn't yank us by the arm and pull us there, like a mother does a 3 yr old through a department store.
IMO, we should pray that our leaders make wise decisions and do what's right for us, our safety, and our posterity and hope that they follow the teachings of the Lord, not assume that they have been sent by Him and are already acting according to His plan.
And, if me saying all this loses me some votes in the AW Mod elections, then so be it. It obviously wasn't His will. ;)
Kentuk
10-08-2006, 12:38 PM
I think we can all agree Pres. Bush needs prayer.
We just don't agree about it doing him any good.
SC Harrison
10-08-2006, 05:56 PM
I don't recall Bush ever cramming anything down anybody's throat, and personally I feel safer with a President that holds his Bible under his arm. As for those in opposition to our Christian heritage, think about this. Who is more irrational? A man who believes in a God he doesn't see? Or a man who's offended by a God he doesn't even believe in?
LS, if you will step back and think about this a second, you may see the fault in this logic. We've previously discussed the perils of counting too much on the guidance of spiritual leaders in place of our own personal convictions and study, but I want to take this a step further:
The perceived righteousness of another individual (or nation) means nothing in each individual's personal quest for spirituality. When a man, especially a wealthy one, wears his faith on his sleeve with pride, he is selling something. A nation that wears its faith in this way is also selling something, and that something may be "spiritual security" for its inhabitants. You know what? That and fifty cents will get you a cup of coffee.
There's a reason why Pride's one of the Seven Deadlies, but people often mistake religious pride for something worthwhile and righteous. A rose by any other name, and all that.
nicegrrl
10-08-2006, 08:00 PM
I dont believe in prayer. I trust in God's judgement and methods and schedule of doing what he wills. I dont believe it is my place to nag him. He knows when I want something. He knows when I should have it or not have it. He knows when I am greatful.
robeiae
10-08-2006, 09:31 PM
They were their own religions. In China, for example, Mao was a God."Cult of personality"--not the same thing. None of them used religion as the tool to achieve their goals. The personality cult was a by-product. And the point stands--as much as people want to accept statements like "religion is responsible for more deaths than anything else" as obviously true, they are not. Not by a long shot.
Wordworm
10-08-2006, 10:31 PM
Wait a minute. The God I don't believe in is a just and loving God.
caw
And the God I don't believe in was a writer who was so disgusted when the Great Library in Alexandria was being sacked for the last time that he moved to another galaxy.
britwrit
10-08-2006, 10:59 PM
To get back to the original question, I remember every Catholic church I've gone to in the United States prayed for our president during the intercessions.
emeraldcite
10-08-2006, 11:46 PM
this country was founded on Christianity by Christians.
Please search the Constitution (http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/constitution_transcript.html) for the word "God."
Also, please search the Bill of Rights (http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html) for the word "God."
The documents that found our nation do not include "God."
In the Declaration of Independence, the letter sent to England's King George III, God is mentioned once:
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
The emphasis is mine. This opens the argument as to what "Nature's God" refers to. This is not necessarily the God of man, although it could be interpreted as such.
The other mention:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.-
Emphasis mine again.
I would argue that this second mention of the "divine" is fairly ambiguous, allowing for any "Creator" to substitute.
Those who fashioned these documents were very smart to keep these documents as open as possible.
So, I would argue that this nation was not founded on purely Christian principles since Christianity is not mentioned in any of these documents and certainly not in the document that founded our nation: the Constitution.
blacbird
10-09-2006, 12:22 AM
Jefferson and Adams, in particular, argued pretty forcefully not just for the formal separation of church and state organizations, but for the philosophy of keeping religious considerations out of governmental decision-making processes. That's not the same as saying you scrap the kinds of ethical beliefs (veracity, honesty, toleration, etc.) that are at the core of Christianity and most important religions, but that calling on specific religious expression is dangerous and troublesome to the free and open society they were trying to promote.
It still is.
caw
Wordworm
10-09-2006, 12:31 AM
So, I would argue that this nation was founded on purely Christian principles since Christianity is not mentioned in any of these documents and certainly not in the document that founded our nation: the Constitution.
I presume you meant to say "I would argue that this nation was not founded on purely Christian principles…"
johnnysannie
10-09-2006, 12:56 AM
Although I haven't "preyed" on the President I can't find enough Christian charity to pray for him either. I do, however, pray for our nation - the one that he's been preying upon for the last six years in the hopes we have a country left by the time the next President is elected.
emeraldcite
10-09-2006, 01:27 AM
I presume you meant to say "I would argue that this nation was not founded on purely Christian principles…"
Thanks for catching that! I've edited my post to reflect the change.
Must've missed it when I proofed. The brain reads not what the hand writes...
blacbird
10-09-2006, 01:31 AM
Point being that the nation the founding fathers were breaking away from did operate with an official state religion regarded as sacred and inviolable, and persecuted (sometimes with utmost viciousness) those who disagreed with that religion. Their opposition to the religious intolerance of England was exactly the motivation for their eloquent advocacy of official separation of Church and State.
caw.
emeraldcite
10-09-2006, 02:20 AM
Point being that the nation the founding fathers were breaking away from did operate with an official state religion regarded as sacred and inviolable, and persecuted (sometimes with utmost viciousness) those who disagreed with that religion. Their opposition to the religious intolerance of England was exactly the motivation for their eloquent advocacy of official separation of Church and State.
caw.
I agree. I think we should also practice what we preach. If we try to persuade other nations trying to adopt democracy for their own nations to separate religion and politics, we certainly should lead by example.
I think this same idea goes for all current debates. If we want other nations to regard us as some kind bastion of democracy, freedom, and justice, we should act like we are instead of pulling the age-old "do as I say, not as I do" rhetoric.
aadams73
10-09-2006, 02:24 AM
I just pray that he doesn't screw up the country any more than he already has, and I pray he quits killing our troops for no good reason. Does that count?
English Dave
10-09-2006, 02:27 AM
Point being that the nation the founding fathers were breaking away from did operate with an official state religion regarded as sacred and inviolable, and persecuted (sometimes with utmost viciousness) those who disagreed with that religion. Their opposition to the religious intolerance of England was exactly the motivation for their eloquent advocacy of official separation of Church and State.
caw.
Well said.
writerterri
10-09-2006, 03:10 AM
I love ya, Terri but, as a fellow Christian, you've totally lost me on this.
You're basically saying that God's fixed our elections?
If He "put the government in place and the leaders in their positions," that means he put Nixon in place. He put Grant, a drunkard, in charge of our country. He put several freemasons in charge of our country. He put someone who hated Christianity in charge of the US at one point. It also means that He, in essence, led us into Vietnam. He put Gary Condit in office to cheat on his wife with an intern. It means that He thought there were WMDs in Iraq, too.
It means He put Mark Foley in Congress, to sexually harass young pages.
I seriously doubt that. I'm sure God cares who is elected, but I don't think He has much directly to do with which lever people pull in the voting booth, or the outcome of pregnant or dimpled chads. If He did, then that would eliminate free will, which would run counter to much of what is in the Bible about our power of choice.
And, if God fixes our elections, does that mean that He only looks out for the USA? That's pretty arrogant. So, that means that we're God's chosen people?
Not bloody likely. I imagine there are other nations and people He loves. If we're the only country He's looking out for, what does that say about the Jews, the Rwandans, the Serbs, etc.? Are they not worthy of His divine guidance and intervention?
God does not directly interfere with politics. If He did, then how do you explain the rises to power of Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler, Hussein? Does He not love the Jews or the Iraqis? Why would He put so many womanizers, and alcoholics, and liars, and sexual miscreants, and bigots in positions of power in our own government?
Heck, forget just governments. Why would He have made the hedonistic, whoring slutbag Alexander VI or the cruel Leo the Great popes, leaders of the Catholic church? Just because a person is in a position of power, and claims to be a Christian, does not mean that God put or even wants the person there, and it doesn't mean that the person is doing things according to His will, no matter how much they invoke His name and claim they are doing things in His name.
God has provided the tools for people to live right and be with Him one day. It is up to the individual whether or not they use the tools He's provided and follow the path He's laid out. He's given us what we need and pointed us in the direction we need to go. He doesn't yank us by the arm and pull us there, like a mother does a 3 yr old through a department store.
IMO, we should pray that our leaders make wise decisions and do what's right for us, our safety, and our posterity and hope that they follow the teachings of the Lord, not assume that they have been sent by Him and are already acting according to His plan.
And, if me saying all this loses me some votes in the AW Mod elections, then so be it. It obviously wasn't His will. ;)
And you're basically saying that He has no Devin power of influence? :D
However, I so scratch my head at some that are in power. I will never fully understand God and his mysterious ways. He's sees the big picture all the way to the end, we see only what's in front of us.
I judge ye not! Lest I want the same measure used on me that I use on you.
Just respectful conversation. ;)
English Dave
10-09-2006, 03:16 AM
And you're basically saying that He has no Devin power of influence? :D
However, I so scratch my head at some that are in power. I will never fully understand God and his mysterious ways. He's sees the big picture all the way to the end, we see only what's in front of us.
I judge ye not! Lest I want the same measure used on me that I use on you.
Just respectful conversation. ;)
The same way people are scratching their heads about the Amish way that they can accept that someone who killed a few young girls can be forgiven because that was God's will?
It's a nice way to keep your sanity.
emeraldcite
10-09-2006, 03:28 AM
When all else fails...
I will never fully understand God and his mysterious ways.
writerterri
10-09-2006, 03:31 AM
The same way people are scratching their heads about the Amish way that they can accept that someone who killed a few young girls can be forgiven because that was God's will?
It's a nice way to keep your sanity.
I wouldn't say that God willed it. I would say that the gunman was against God's will and murdered those girls. If he was insink (<spelling?) with the will of God he would have abstained from murder and sought help. For God's own reasons He didn't intervene. And yes the gun man can be forgiven if he truly repented in his heart, but somehow I don't think he did that so quickly before killing himself.
The Amish people choose not to harbour resentment in their hearts as it always throws the spirit off balance and they choose to be at peace and forgive right away. Most will, few won't. I believe the ones who don't will let the seed of resentment grow and lash out somehow, perhaps.
writerterri
10-09-2006, 03:34 AM
When all else fails...
But I will always trust He knows what He's doing and follow Him with my heart.
eldragon
10-09-2006, 03:40 AM
Here's how I look at it. (Since I do believe in God). He's incharge of all and he put the government in place and the leaders in their positions. He knows them past present and future and he sees all and knows all. So if I hate a president that he's put into place who am I to shake my fist at God?
I know you don't believe that God puts world leaders into place.
What about Hitler? Castro?
If God put Hilter into place - I guess He hated alot of people, too.
English Dave
10-09-2006, 03:41 AM
I know you don't believe that God puts world leaders into place.
What about Hitler? Castro?
If God put Hilter into place - I guess He hated alot of people, too.
Don't go up any high buildings.
Just sayin'.
writerterri
10-09-2006, 03:43 AM
I know you don't believe that God puts world leaders into place.
What about Hitler? Castro?
If God put Hilter into place - I guess He hated alot of people, too.
Let me find the Bible verse and let everyone decide for themselves. I always wonder about that too, el.
How's that sweet little kitty of yours?
eldragon
10-09-2006, 03:44 AM
The kitty is well ...........thanks for asking!
And God didn't let someone throw him over the bridge - the guy just did it! It's free will!
English Dave
10-09-2006, 03:55 AM
Let me find the Bible verse and let everyone decide for themselves. I always wonder about that too, el.
How's that sweet little kitty of yours?
Don't bring ***** into it.
Sex and religion have to be kept totally distinct from politics.
writerterri
10-09-2006, 04:10 AM
Shield your eyes, Dave! Burn warning! :D
Here's what I found:
New Kings James Version, Romans 13:verse 1
Let every soul be subjuct to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
Free will- believe it or not.
Why are there two pages of points made by people that are pretty much the same things I said three days ago?
My campaign will be filing plagiarism charges in the morning.
Does no one read my posts? This doesn't bode well for my election.
After I post in threads, they should be locked. There's nothing more that can be said.
;)
blacbird
10-09-2006, 04:18 AM
Which is akin to saying that anything that happens is God's will, thereby absolving humans from any guilt. This reasoning, by the way, is precisely why jihadists and other Islamists (like the Shi'a ayatollahs in Iran) reject Western democracy as a viable form of government. God selects leaders, men should simply accept.
I ain't purchasing it.
caw.
English Dave
10-09-2006, 04:20 AM
Shield your eyes, Dave! Burn warning! :D
Here's what I found:
New Kings James Version, Romans 13:verse 1
Let every soul be subjuct to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
Free will- believe it or not.
Sounds like a total cop out. I admire the Amish for inviting the killer's family to the funeral. I really do.
But if my son needed radiology to save his life I think I'd go for that. He's far more important than 'God'
writerterri
10-09-2006, 04:24 AM
Why are there two pages of points made by people that are pretty much the same things I said three days ago?
My campaign will be filing plagiarism charges in the morning.
Does no one read my posts? This doesn't bode well for my election.
After I post in threads, they should be locked. There's nothing more that can be said.
;)
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Unique
10-09-2006, 04:24 AM
Why are there two pages of points made by people that are pretty much the same things I said three days ago?
;)
Did you use too many big words?
:D
writerterri
10-09-2006, 04:30 AM
Sounds like a total cop out. I admire the Amish for inviting the killer's family to the funeral. I really do.
But if my son needed radiology to save his life I think I'd go for that. He's far more important than 'God'
What if you were secretly cloned and you don't have a really have a soul?
hmmm ;)
writerterri
10-09-2006, 04:30 AM
Did you use too many big words?
:D
Yes, he did!
Did you use too many big words?
:D
Uh...
English Dave
10-09-2006, 04:55 AM
What if you were secretly cloned and you don't have a really have a soul?
hmmm ;)
Too many hypothesis. I surrender. :)
writerterri
10-09-2006, 05:03 AM
Too many hypothesis. I surrender. :)
And so quickly? *nods head*
*skips around apartment*
I won, I defeated Dave! :tongue
eldragon
10-09-2006, 05:05 AM
The King James version was written by a bunch of old men - see politicians.
It's all there for a reason, and it isn't for devine purpose.
nicegrrl
10-09-2006, 06:48 AM
The premise of all this is rediculous. The gunman that killed the amish girls was going against god's will but Bush is part of god's will because he is a leader and "authorities exist by god"- which would logically have to extend to Amenenejad too since he is an authority.
teri, I think you cant take that verse literally. The authorities that exist are by the will of God.
True, but that doesnt mean that any governing officials or laws are part of this Godly authority. God's authority exists and transcends man's laws and leaders. That's what the verse means. The authorities we see on this earth are not the real authority we should be concerned with. Give unto caesar what is caesar's, give to God what is God's- you know? God is above all human authority. Each person's relationship with God is between his/her own soul and God and that is the most important relationship there is in life. The relationship we have with governing authorities is just there for show as we wait for our day of judgement.
writerterri
10-09-2006, 09:38 PM
The premise of all this is rediculous. The gunman that killed the amish girls was going against god's will but Bush is part of god's will because he is a leader and "authorities exist by god"- which would logically have to extend to Amenenejad too since he is an authority.
teri, I think you cant take that verse literally. The authorities that exist are by the will of God.
True, but that doesnt mean that any governing officials or laws are part of this Godly authority. God's authority exists and transcends man's laws and leaders. That's what the verse means. The authorities we see on this earth are not the real authority we should be concerned with. Give unto caesar what is caesar's, give to God what is God's- you know? God is above all human authority. Each person's relationship with God is between his/her own soul and God and that is the most important relationship there is in life. The relationship we have with governing authorities is just there for show as we wait for our day of judgement.
I think I agree with your above paragraph.
Perhaps for my own satisfaction I would have to say that these corrupt leaders are held accountable for their actions while being in their positions and accountable for leading people astray.
Maybe in the day it was like it says literally but over the years the "mind set" of the government has gone astray and the leaders have gotten more evil- not God's will. If His hand is removed from a certain government then any evil Joe can get into office (Sadam). Possible?
SC Harrison
10-09-2006, 10:10 PM
Maybe in the day it was like it says literally but over the years the "mind set" of the government has gone astray and the leaders have gotten more evil- not God's will. If His hand is removed from a certain government then any evil Joe can get into office (Sadam). Possible?
We also need to remember his admonition to "Beware of false prophets", which I believe is not limited to only religious leaders, but secular ones as well.
If we are to postulate that this life of the flesh is merely one stage in the existence of the soul, and perhaps a "testing ground" for that soul, if you will, the perceived morality of our leaders is inconsequential; the way we function within this environment holds the true value. This is one of the reasons I recoil at the overt declarations of faith that are made by some leaders, because it can lead people to accept certain behaviors as moral and just, simply because they have faith in the person.
The extreme example of this is exhibited within a cult environment, where followers will submit to treatment and behaviors that would be unacceptable were it not for their devotion to the vision of their leader. I fear that we, as a species, are all too eager to surrender the responsibilty for our own moral and ethical judgments to those who want the task, but that way leads to spiritual corruption.
writerterri
10-10-2006, 01:51 AM
I like your point of view SC.
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