Birds and Bees may be gay- a museum exhibition

[bloemmarc]

http//news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061012/...mosexuality_dc
I've heard alot of strange things, but never in my life could I have come up with the far out ideas in this article.
I guess it takes all kinds.

[Forbidden Snowflake]

May I ask you what kind of ideas we're talking about?

Because as far as I know, there's not a person, that suddenly had the idea that lion might be gay, but more researchers that studied the lion and spotted gay behaviour during those studies. Which makes it more a fact than an idea.

Or am I getting you wrong?

Please, explain.

Btw, article here. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061012/sc_nm/environment_homosexuality_dc_4)

[bloemmarc]

Whatever animals do, they do by reacting by instincts. Being gay is more a personal choise in lifestyle.
on any animal kingdom show you can watch how the female and male species interact. The spiders and insects mate male and female, sure the female eats the male after, but they do mate.
Whatever they are researching in these animals is because of instinct in them.
Lions have an instinct to search our other female lions and mate with them to have cubs. I'ts inbred into their genes to want this, and wil die fighting over a female lion.
I ail to see how this research would be correct, other than for comic relief.

[aadams73]

:popcorn:

[bloemmarc]

:welcome::popcorn:

[Peggy]

Whatever animals do, they do by reacting by instincts. Being gay is more a personal choise in lifestyle.
on any animal kingdom show you can watch how the female and male species interact. The spiders and insects mate male and female, sure the female eats the male after, but they do mate.
Whatever they are researching in these animals is because of instinct in them.
Lions have an instinct to search our other female lions and mate with them to have cubs. I'ts inbred into their genes to want this, and wil die fighting over a female lion.
I think you are missing the point. Animals do react to their instincts, and, as research has shown, some animals prefer to mate with others of the same sex. Anyone who says that homosexuality is not found in "nature" (in quotes because some people seem to use the term to exclude humans) is simply wrong. Based on the responses of some of the people quoted in this article, it's an important exhibit. I ail to see how this research would be correct, other than for comic relief. So, do you think the researchers are just making up their observations? The point of doing research is to find out if our hypotheses and assumptions are correct or not.

[Medievalist]

Whatever animals do, they do by reacting by instincts. Being gay is more a personal choise in lifestyle.

No, no it's not.

It's hard-wired, possibly genetically determined before birth.

There are homosexual mammals, birds and reptiles.

Heck, our neighbor had a homosexual stud bull.

I ail to see how this research would be correct, other than for comic relief.

You need to either spend more time observing animals, or read more. Probably both.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals#Homosexual_behavior

With respect to humans and other mammals, the inability of a given male individual to achieve and maintain an erection when engaging with sexual behavior with a female while experiencing no erectile dysfunction while engaging in sexual behavior with a female is hardly a matter of a "life style choice."

[bloemmarc]

Well to be honest, I didn't post it to argue with anyone. I disagre with it, but I just wanted to see what people's reactions would be to research like this. I had never heard of anything being reported like this before.

[veinglory]

Anyone who watches social animals for extended periods and can tell male from female has seen homosexual animal behavior. We had a cosy and very sexually active pair of gay hedgehogs in our garden for years.

As for why gay people and animals are gay, who cares. Really. Who cares, and why? I don't tell other people who to shack up with anymore than I did the hedgehogs.

As for the research, there are three separate books out reviewing homosexuality in non-human animals. I suggest you pick any one of them to get up to speed on the subject. Posting your "disagreement" is something any reasonable person could predict would start an argument.

We've had more than enough threads already on how gays are self-inflicted perverse sinful freaks and I, for one, am sick of it.

[bloemmarc]

Well actually like I said, I had never heard of research like this before. I was just wondering what people's reactions would be to it.
I am not trying tell others what to do with their lives. As a metter of fact, I am not even talking about human gays at all.


Anyone who watches social animals for extended periods and can tell male from female has seen homosexual animal behavior. We had a cosy and very sexually active pair of gay hedgehogs in our garden for years.

As for why gay people and animals are gay, who cares. Really. Who cares, and why? I don't tell other people who to shack up with anymore than I did the hedgehogs.

As for the research, there are three separate books out reviewing homosexuality in non-human animals. I suggest you pick any one of them. Posting your "disagreement" is something any reasonable person could predict would start an argument.

We've had more than enough threads already on how gay's are self-inflicted perverse sinful freaks and I, for one, am sick of it.

[veinglory]

Whatever animals do, they do by reacting by instincts. Being gay is more a personal choise in lifestyle. .

This is you mentioning people.

[bloemmarc]

yes, but I wasn't trying to tell them how to live their lives or anything, or calling them names like you mentioned. I am sorry.
i was just trying to make a comparison there, a small one.

This is you mentioning people.

[veinglory]

As a queer and animal psychologist allow me to suggest that was a false comparsion. Animals do things for more or less the same reasons as humans. And gay people don't decide to join a discriminated minority because they like the clothes or the decor.

[Forbidden Snowflake]

Oh my God. I can't believe people.

It is not a bloody choice in lifestyle. How many times does one have to repeat that.

It is NOT a lifestyle. And it is NOT a choice.

Do you think I got up one morning and decided I am gay, just because I figured, oh yeah, how cool would that be?

It is who I am. Me. Not a lifestyle. Not a choice. Just me.

[Spirit_Fire]

Maybe all those gay lions are going to lion hell for their evil 'lifestyle choice'.
:Shrug: (Is there a punctuation mark for sarcasm?)

[bloemmarc]

ok, I am very very sorry for that, but truth I didn't post this to talk about humans, but animals because I myself have never heard of this in animals before, and am only curious if more people know about this.
I don't see it in animals myself, but am interested in how others see it. Sure, I did see it as comic relief, bit am interested in how others view this in nature.


Oh my God. I can't believe people.

It is not a bloody choice in lifestyle. How many times does one have to repeat that.

It is NOT a lifestyle. And it is NOT a choice.

Do you think I got up one morning and decided I am gay, just because I figured, oh yeah, how cool would that be?

It is who I am. Me. Not a lifestyle. Not a choice. Just me.

[veinglory]

I see it as another example of continuity between human and animal behavior. It became very obvious when we took the trouble to observe animals closely in the wild rather than just in small pens. Which, as an aside, is why the praying mantises eat their mate. It is an abnormal behaviour caused by captivity. Unlike homosexual bonds and acts which are a normal part of the continuium of sexual behavior observed in both wild and domestic contexts. I am not sure exactly what makes it funny, though.

[Birol]

*raises hands* Scientifically speaking, aren't humans animals, too?

ETA: Cross-posted with Veinglory

[tiny]

Stop pointing out the obvious, Birol :P

[Forbidden Snowflake]

It's been long known in science that homosexuality is nothing uncommon in the Animalkingdom.

Which in my opinion shows that it's actually quite natural, unlike what some people try to preach.

Because how could those animals all be unnatural?

And I'm terribly sorry for getting offended at words like lifestyle and choice [/sarcasm]

[ChunkyC]

The fact that I'm a human male who is sexually attracted to human females is no more a choice than two people of the same gender being sexually attracted to each other. I did not choose to be heterosexual, I just am.

Nobody picks their sexual orientation like choosing the upholstery in a new car, no matter what that orientation might be.

ETA: bloemmarc, if you really wanted to have a discussion on how interesting it is that so many of the patterns of human behaviour -- such as homosexuality -- are mirrored in other species, fair enough. It is quite a fascinating subject.

[maestrowork]

People do research on animal (and human) behaviors all the time. So what's so far out about trying to figure out if birds and bees exhibit gay behaviors or engage in same-sex relationships? That's how we understand nature. The OP's assertion:


I've heard alot of strange things, but never in my life could I have come up with the far out ideas in this article.
I guess it takes all kinds.


... and..


it's a personal choice of lifestyle


and this:


I [f]ail to see how this research would be correct, other than for comic relief.


... clearly showed a contempt to homosexuality and any research on its "naturalness." Then the OP begins to retract his comments by saying he meant no harm.

As for choice... let me ask you, bloemarc, did you, at one point in your life, decide/choose whether you like girls or boys? I certainly didn't. It's not quite the same as vanilla vs. chocolate.

If anything, people choose to live a heterosexual lifestyle even if they are gay because of societal prejudice from people like you. Not the other way around.

[bloemmarc]

Look I did think they were far out ideas because animal behavior is different than humans. Now I know you say being gay is not a personal choice, it's what you're born into, and I respect that, I really do. I was just having a hard time with this article because it referred to animal behavior. I mean I was taught in school that animals mate basically as an instinct to survive. Most times whether you be homosexual or hetro, you mate with the one you love out of a personal choice for the one you want to be with.
same with food, I was taught in school that animals eat to survive out of instinct, and all srtos of things.
look, I said I was sorry about what I said before, and wanted to talk about what I posted, the article because it is an interesting study, whch I was taught differently on when I was younger. That is why I thought it was far outght. I do not have contempt for anyone, and I said I was sorry for maybe sating something rude before, but obviously you aren't looking at that.


People do research on animal (and human) behaviors all the time. So what's so far out about trying to figure out if birds and bees exhibit gay behaviors or engage in same-sex relationships? That's how we understand nature. The OP's assertion:



... and..



and this:



... clearly showed a contempt to homosexuality and any research on its "naturalness." Then the OP begins to retract his comments by saying he meant no harm.

As for choice... let me ask you, bloemarc, did you, at one point in your life, decide/choose whether you like girls or boys? I certainly didn't. It's not quite the same as vanilla vs. chocolate.

If anything, people choose to live a heterosexual lifestyle even if they are gay because of societal prejudice from people like you. Not the other way around.

[bloemmarc]

Like I keep saying, I really didn't even want to talk about humans at all.

I am sorry if I made it seem like that with one simple off the wall comment, but human sexuality was not what I was wondering about in this discussion.
If humans are happy with homosexuality, that's great, and I whish them all the happiness truly.

[ColoradoGuy]

Look I did think they were far out ideas because animal behavior is different than humans.
Why are you surprised to find that behavior as basic to our inner being as sexuality spans the entire animal kingdom? Most of biology shows extraordinary conservation of genetic energy. Why would sexuality be any different from that?

[bloemmarc]

Because of what I said in my past post of what I lerned in school. We learned that animals behave by instinct. They mate primarily to breed. there are flies who sole purpose is to mate, and then die.
My phycology professor even told us that humans are the only species that enjoys sex. Animals do it to survive. That is what he said mind you.
He said animal behavior is based largely in instinct way, whereas we have more of a personal choice on how we want to live our lives.
by saying before that I thought homosexuality was a personal choice, by no means did I mean to offend, I was just pointing out different preferences in how people choose to lead their lives. Again all these things were things I was taught when I was younger that I am going by. I wasn't trying to say I thought it was a bad thing.
As far as me saying it was for comic relief, wel maybe that was out of hand. I'm sorry


Why are you surprised to find that behavior as basic to our inner being as sexuality spans the entire animal kingdom? Most of biology shows extraordinary conservation of genetic energy. Why would sexuality be any different from that?

[clintl]

Heck, our neighbor had a homosexual stud bull.


That must have been economically inconvenient.

[icerose]

My in-laws have a dog that humps everything, tree stumps, cats, humans, whatever he can get his paws around. What does that make him??

Not to offend anyone, but I don't buy the sexuality in nature. I believe in a natural drive for sex to survive, and the act of dominance, where the alpha male mounts everyone in the pride to show dominance and tends to work quite well. But hey, just my opinion.

[veinglory]

Because of what I said in my past post of what I lerned in school. We learned that animals behave by instinct. They mate primarily to breed. there are flies who sole purpose is to mate, and then die.

Their sole purpose for the animal is to get nice sensations. Most if not all animals don't know where babies come from. The genes may "want" to propagate but the individuals wants company and orgasms. Observation shows that sexual sensations can ocur for all animals without anyone getting pregnant. The rather diffuse underlying reason why it does feel good relates to reproducing for all species but this is not what motivates the individual, they just feel horny. What makes them feel horny and exactly what they do about it varies and this variation includes homosexuality in pretty much every mammialian species and a bunch of others too.

My phycology professor even told us that humans are the only species that enjoys sex. Animals do it to survive.

This makes no sense at all. Sex is life threatening to most species and preganancy to pretty much all. For many animals it is actually suicidal. Animals are not martyring themselves consciously for their children--they are horny. They enjoy sex, most masturbate. The reverse makes much more sense, only humans voluntarily have sex other than for pleasure, but that isn't quite true either. Other animals will also have sex with the boss or do it to get food and other payment.


He said animal behavior is based largely in instinct way, whereas we have more of a personal choice on how we want to live our lives.

If they really said this they need to be fired for gross and inexcusable ignorance

by saying before that I thought homosexuality was a personal choice, by no means did I mean to offend, I was just pointing out different preferences in how people choose to lead their lives.

You've just repeated the insult. Well done. Do you really think people decide to have their own sex make them horny just because... heck, I can't even *think* of a reason.

Let me assure you, people have instincts, reflexes, innate identities just as much as people. Do you choose to take each breath and suffocate while asleep. Can you get an erection at will and banish it the same way? Did you decide to fall in love with someone because it was convenient?

Our behaviours come from phylogeny (genetics) and ontogeny (learning) no matter what species we are--preference is an, typically non-voluntary, expression of both and does not imply free choice or free will on the matter. Sexuality is largely from the the former, the latter just determines the degree to which we act upon out innate romantic and sexual orientation. Animals tend to just act. We humans tend to start making up weird theories.

[Medievalist]

That must have been economically inconvenient.

Not given the way that semen is harvested and used, no.

And that's all I'm gonna say about that . . .

[bloemmarc]

And that's all I'm gonna say about that . . .

Run Forrest, Run..

[clintl]

Oh, that's right. I forgot about that major bull semen theft a year or two ago.

[icerose]

Our behaviours come from phylogeny (genetics) and ontogeny (learning) no matter what species we are--preference is an, typically non-voluntary, expression of both and does not imply free choice or free will on the matter. Sexuality is largely from the the former, the latter just determines the degree to which we act upon out innate romantic and sexual orientation. Animals tend to just act. We humans tend to start making up weird theories.

Actually newer studies are showing that most people who consider themselves gay are people who have been told growing up that pink is only for girls, those things are only for girls, those things are for boys and such and so on, and relate more to the other side and thus are more attracted to people who they would be if they were the other sex, because of the things they felt were not appropriate for their sex type.

Don't throw anything at me, there have been several new studies that have confirmed this, unfortunately I don't have any of the links as I just formatted my computer.

[ColoradoGuy]

Not given the way that semen is harvested and used, no.

And that's all I'm gonna say about that . . .
"Natural cover," as they used to call it, is a thing of the distant past.

[veinglory]

Actually newer studies are showing that most people who consider themselves gay are people who have been told growing up that pink is only for girls, those things are only for girls, those things are for boys and such and so on, and relate more to the other side and thus are more attracted to people who they would be if they were the other sex, because of the things they felt were not appropriate for their sex type.

Don't throw anything at me, there have been several new studies that have confirmed this, unfortunately I don't have any of the links as I just formatted my computer.

I have been following that field of research rather closely for many years and would be astounded if any such causal limk was suggested by any kind of reputable researcher. It flies in the face of a good few thousand other studies that find no such link. Likelihood of children being gay correlates barely at all with any sociological factors including religion and the sexuality of the parents. It does have some moderate genetic correlates. You seem to be suggesting that boys who like pink will make themselves have sex with men because they want to act like girls. I don't suggest mentioning this at your local leather bar.

[icerose]

I have been following that field of research rather closely for many years and would be astounded if any such causal limk was suggested by any kind of reputable researcher. It flies in the face of a good few thousand other studies that find no such link. Likelihood of children being gay correlates barely at all with any sociological factors including religion and the sexuality of the parents. It does have some moderate genetic correlates.

Of course penguin parents can be terrible with the gender specific clothing so you never know.

I will try and find it again.

[veinglory]

She caught me between edits ;) I thought the leather bar comment was more funny than the penguin one.

[Peggy]

Actually newer studies are showing that most people who consider themselves gay are people who have been told growing up that pink is only for girls, those things are only for girls, those things are for boys and such and so on, and relate more to the other side and thus are more attracted to people who they would be if they were the other sex, because of the things they felt were not appropriate for their sex type.

Don't throw anything at me, there have been several new studies that have confirmed this, unfortunately I don't have any of the links as I just formatted my computer. I would be really curious to know the details of those studies. I follow the science news, and I don't recall seeing any studies of this sort. There was a recent study that showed an increased likelihood of homosexuality if a boy has an older brothers that appears to be due to conditions in utero, rather than the way the boys are raised.

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20060701/fob1.asp

[Medievalist]

Actually newer studies are showing that most people who consider themselves gay are people who have been told growing up that pink is only for girls, those things are only for girls, those things are for boys and such and so on, and relate more to the other side and thus are more attracted to people who they would be if they were the other sex, because of the things they felt were not appropriate for their sex type.

Any such studies are suspicious to begin with, if this paragraph is an accurate description.

Being homosexual means you like to have sex and you have romantic attachments (also known as romantic and sexual love) for people of the same sex.

The idea that "pink is for girls," aside from its inherent idiocy, is culturally determined, not biologically determined. It's essentially implying that to be homosexual means the individual wants to be the opposite sex.

That's just wrong; that's a separate issue altogether, and to even think thus is not only illogical and ignorant, it's homophobic.

Stop thinking in binaries. Think about individuals. Individuals with unique desires, hopes, wishes, and genetic and social bacgrounds.

Don't confuse gender identification, which occurs in a cultural and social spectrum and is not binary, with homosexuality.

[kikazaru]

Because of what I said in my past post of what I lerned in school. We learned that animals behave by instinct. They mate primarily to breed. there are flies who sole purpose is to mate, and then die.
My phycology professor even told us that humans are the only species that enjoys sex. Animals do it to survive. That is what he said mind you.
He said animal behavior is based largely in instinct way, whereas we have more of a personal choice on how we want to live our lives.

Animals, like people, are individuals. The species as a "whole" mate to perpetuate their kind, but within the species are the varying inclinations of the individual animal - from highly sexed to having virtually no sex drive whatsoever, to animals sexually attracted to their own gender. There are lots of examples of homosexual behaviour in animals, none more famous than the "gay" penguins at the Bronx zoo I believe it is and there are a few books written on this. One is called "Biological Exuberance" written by a scientist who wittnessed many of these encounters.

As for not enjoying sex, if sex was not an enjoyable experience there would not be the impetus to mate - especially for the higher life forms. In addition there are many examples of animals who masturbate - from birds to monkeys. Since this activity does not perpetuate the species, one can conclude it is done because they enjoy it.

Also your professor is wrong in stating that we have a more personal "choice" in how we live our lives. While it is true no matter what one's sexual inclination is, one can choose not to ever have sex, but that is an entirely different matter than being able to choose the gender to which we are sexually attracted.

[maestrowork]

Actually newer studies are showing that most people who consider themselves gay are people who have been told growing up that pink is only for girls, those things are only for girls, those things are for boys and such and so on, and relate more to the other side and thus are more attracted to people who they would be if they were the other sex, because of the things they felt were not appropriate for their sex type.

Oh good. Then half the Asian population must be gay. We certainly think pink is only for girls. Not to mention all gay men think they are girls, and all lesbians think they are boys. Just perfect.


Where is Carson Kresley when I need him? I need a pink shirt.

[icerose]

I didn't say I agree with the studies I was just stating those are the newest ones I have seen.

[Medievalist]

You know I am awfully tired of this same discussion being rehearsed over and over, and Bloemerc, I'm not blaming you.

It's an idiotic discussion. There are homosexuals. They love other homosexuals, and, understandably, want to express that desire sexually. I started out with the intention of posting links to past discussions that referred, stupidly, to a "homosexual lifestyle," (like homosexuals go out on raids, or have orgies every Thursday or whatever) as a "choice." I've deleted the links because it's painful to see so many of the people I care about being hurt. I'm not going to open old wounds.

Homosexuality is not a choice. It really isn't. If a guy can't get erect with a woman, if a woman can't lubricate, and if neither can climax with the opposite sex, and functions just fine with their own, it's not a choice, any more than being tall or having green eyes or perfect pitches are choices; we are victimized and blessed by our genetics..

There isn't a "homosexual lifestyle." Gays live pretty much the way heterosexuals do, with the same sorts of variety from person to person; they even engage in pretty much the same sexual behaviors. They just have sex and fall in love and have families with people who share the same sorts of genitalia.

Why and how people are homosexual don't really matter in terms of day to day life on AW

There are homosexual members here. They are valuable contributors. There are homosexuals in your families, your churches, your schools and among your friends.

Don't be stupid, don't keep making the same sorts of hurtful and ignorant assertions.

Just stop.

Just accept people as they are.

[Birol]

On that note, thread closed.