Please! I need a little help with...

[elviro]

First of all, Hi, since I'm a newbie here.

Here's my question: I have read a lot of books on screenwriting, (McKee's, Trottier's, Fyeld's, etc) but none of them seems to focus on the plot's true development.

I mean: all of them say what a second act should be: throw in it all the conflicts, get a faster pace, etc. But can someone recommend me a book on plotting?

I mean: how to develop multi-linear plots, how to control the twists and turns, how to design, in a word, an interesting narrative through ups and downs, and how to make the story a labyrinth with a succesful ending. One that tells you "how to do it" instead of "how it should be". You know, one that makes you say in the end: i never thought the assasin was HIM !!

Cheers and thank you in advance.

[elviro]

I don't want anybody to write anything for me. I was just asking for a book recommendation. I don't deserve such an unfriendly answer.

[icerose]

I don't want anybody to write anything for me. I was just asking for a book recommendation. I don't deserve such an unfriendly answer.

Just ignore him, his first and every single reincarnation is always this way.

Welcome Elviro! The head admin Joe, has worked solely as a screenwriter for years and there are others who work in the industry who hang around here and have some great experience to share.

I only have one short sale and two options so take my suggestions for what they're worth.

I would suggest that you pick a movie that has the plot twists that you like, find the script, and read it while you watch the movie. Rinse and repeat with as many as needed.

One way to really help control your story to make sure it is intricately woven without dropping the plotpoints is outline. The more thourough the outline the more controlled it will be. When you are done, through your rewrites make sure everything is tied up. Read widely and read often scripts that have sold that contain what you are looking for. Try to find the spec scripts over the shooting scripts as you will be writing the spec script and it will better show you what's required as a writer.

Good luck and if you need any specific story advice make a post and we'll see what we can do for you.

[Comics Writer]

I haven't cracked a screenwriting book in some time as it seems that my geographic location and other factors would work against me in breaking in. I am going to take the stories that I had in mind for screenplays and use them in other media.
But, when I was reading about screenwriting, I was impressed by the columns by William C. Martell. He works in the low budget arena, but his advice can be adapted to big screen productions as well.
Here is a link to an article from his website. Look at his other articles and you may find something you like. His advice is practical, no nonesense, and very easy to read and understand.
Just remember not to get too caught up in the mechanics. Learn them and use them, but don't be a slave to them. Let the story flow from you.

http://www.scriptsecrets.net/articles/zombie.htm

[whistlelock]

I mean: how to develop multi-linear plots, how to control the twists and turns, how to design, in a word, an interesting narrative through ups and downs, and how to make the story a labyrinth with a succesful ending. One that tells you "how to do it" instead of "how it should be". You know, one that makes you say in the end: i never thought the assasin was HIM !!



How to do that? Same way you get to Carnegie Hall. Practice, Practice, Practice.

While writing isn't paint by numbers, much of it can be reduced to that sort of thinking. However, you're going to have to know how to put in the numbers and where to paint before that.

[odocoileus]

Find films that are intricately or unusually plotted, say, The Usual Suspects, Pulp Fiction, Basic Instinct, Chinatown, The Maltese Falcon, any number of Hitchcock thrillers, All the President's Men...
Analyze the story, chart the A, B, & C plots on a spreadsheet. See how it's been done well and do likewise.


Pope's book is one of my faves. Excellent analysis from a working screenwriter:
http://www.amazon.com/Good-Scripts-Bad-Learning-Screenwriting/dp/0609801198/sr=1-1/qid=1162677843/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-5430066-9119231?ie=UTF8&s=books


These books could be useful in plot analysis, though they are somewhat formulaic. A way in, at any rate. You're free to draw your own conclusions.

Myth and the Movies Discovering the Myth Structure of 50 Unforgettable Films http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Movies-Discovering-Structure-Unforgettable/dp/0941188663

http://www.amazon.com/Writers-Journey-Mythic-Structure/dp/0941188701/sr=1-1/qid=1162677940/ref=sr_1_1/002-5430066-9119231?ie=UTF8&s=books

[scripter1]

You've kind of asked the millon dollar question there.

I think there is any easy, pat answer and then there is a much more complex answer.

The easy answer is you just have to figure it out. That's how you know if you've got talent. It kind of just happens.

The more complicated answer is that you take what you've studied and read and all the advice and try to get yourself to the stage above. You CAN take what talent is there and develop it. You can think about all the elements of the craft and develop them by practice.
You have to keep reading and keep experimenting with your stories until it all just clicks and you get something that really zings.

You try different stories, different genres, different techniques until you find the one that unlocks your hidden magic.

No, I haven't come across a book that completly teaches what you are seeking. What IS available are plenty of articles that will give you the basic concept and notions.

Bill's tips are awesome. They target very specfic points of the craft. I can't think of any script issue that Bill hasn't covered.

The other side of this is having a twisting, turning story to begin with. It all comes down to what the characters WANT and how far they are willing to go to make it happen. The more determined they are and the more involved the GOAL then the more you have to work with.
And make sure that the core goal can be broken up into disctinct stages. If your antag wants to destory the world then he's got to get an Atom bomb first. So he's got to get parts for it, and make it, or steal it. Then he's got to make the ulitmatium and deliver the bomb. Then he's got to set it up/release it, etc.

The protag has strong goals as well.
Finding out who the antag is, and countermanning him at each of these stages.

It doesn't matter whether it is a comedy, or a drama, or a thriller, or a horror, the antag and protag must have enough to do to 1) provide an hour and a half of story and 2) create that back and forth path you seek.

Once you have the core plot then you brain storm ways to move from A to C to F to K to L and M, P, R and so forth on to Z.

Don't count anything out. Write it down, think about it even if it seems really stupid at first. Then sort through the ideas to see what you can actually use.

Then there is YOU the writer.
YOU have to be willing to push things. If you love your main character too much to hurt him/her then you won't be able to write them into nasy situations. You've got to be mean, totally cold blooded.

Also, look at what has all ready been done in films similar to yours.
A little research into new inventions and technology may help you out. And then also again, brainstorm and see what kinds of other crazy things you can come up. You can work out the feasability and believablity issues second.
Hope that helps.

And Welcome.

[Write_At_1st_Light]

Hi El -

I'll add this too: Get fascinated with people. It's a requirement if you intend to write fictional material involving multiple characters. It's a requirement for actors as well. Your future scripts are going to deal with a myriad of subjects, but a rich diversity of characters will always drive each of your scripts. Since you are going to speak for your characters, then you'll need, as I call it, to step behind the foreheads of the folks in your scripts and BE them. For a time. There's no other way to do it. To get the believability and authenticity into your characters, you've got to be fascinated with people across a wide spectrum. In your screenplays, you may have to be a pregnant teenager or a business executive or a serial killer or a ten-year-old boy or a conniving politician or a psychologist or...

So, heighten your awareness of how people tick. Be a sponge. Look for the uniqueness in people you know and meet - try to discover why that uniqueness stands out. Why it makes them different from all others. Read. Read, read, read. Good writers are voracious readers of books. Books are better than scripts in unlocking the mechanisms and wonderments of people. Scripts have to skim it, have to indicate it - but the director and actors are the ones who fill out the characters. To be able to indicate characterizations in a script - you must possess a deeper understanding of them. You cannot guess. If you are picked to rewrite your sold script, they will absolutely expect you to know your characters more fully than what you have on the page.

Writers and actors are typically empathetic with people from a broad spectrum. That's why there are so many Democrats in Hollywood. That's why so many actors and writers and directors and producers in Hollywood have all of these people causes with which they are involved. It's because, at a core level - they care. They understand. They empathize.

All the very best in your writing,

[Suzanne Stroh]

Elviro, try Hal Ackerman's book. I forget the title. He's a screenwriter and teaches at UCLA. He's got a great system for plotting the second act. Basically it's a variation on the 3X5 notecard system. He shows you how to improve suspense and deepen character by putting roadblocks in the way--and the notecard system lets you see that, let's you SEE how it is working. Let me know if it works for you.

[elviro]

Well, first of all, thank you everybody for your answers and feedback. And thank you for the suggestions, I'll check 'em.

On the other hand, of course I didn't expect to find a "total how-to" about plots. I just was thinking that maybe I had missed something, and there are some books that people here have suggested that I didn't know.

I have a kind of love/hate relationship with screenwriting books. What I think is that, apart from some classics that everyone should read, as McKee's, reading screenwriting books is good for many reasons, even if you have some experience.

I usually buy one, then read it and then try to forget it, so its rules doesn't affect me too much. Then I re-read it, bookmark the interesting bits and there is: a useful reference book. For even in the worst books, when you are blocked, it is useful to skim-read those bookmarks, they may prove useful and spark some idea or solution in your head.

But anyway, it's clear that script and film analysis is the best school.

[icerose]

But anyway, it's clear that script and film analysis is the best school.

Good luck, if you need anymore help, let us know. :)

And yeah, it really does come down to doing. A technique can be learned in a book, like a doctor learning a skill by reading and seeing pictures, but when it comes to the actual execution the doing is the only way to learn, which is why they use kadavers in medical school.

Same can be applied to scriptwriting. You can read about all the techniques in the world but the reading and the doing are two different animals.

[English Dave]

Well, first of all, thank you everybody for your answers and feedback. And thank you for the suggestions, I'll check 'em.

On the other hand, of course I didn't expect to find a "total how-to" about plots. I just was thinking that maybe I had missed something, and there are some books that people here have suggested that I didn't know.

I have a kind of love/hate relationship with screenwriting books. What I think is that, apart from some classics that everyone should read, as McKee's, reading screenwriting books is good for many reasons, even if you have some experience.

I usually buy one, then read it and then try to forget it, so its rules doesn't affect me too much. Then I re-read it, bookmark the interesting bits and there is: a useful reference book. For even in the worst books, when you are blocked, it is useful to skim-read those bookmarks, they may prove useful and spark some idea or solution in your head.

But anyway, it's clear that script and film analysis is the best school.

And yet you are employed as a reader?

Shivvvver.

[Goodwriterguy]

Well, first of all, thank you everybody for your answers and feedback. And thank you for the suggestions, I'll check 'em.

On the other hand, of course I didn't expect to find a "total how-to" about plots. I just was thinking that maybe I had missed something, and there are some books that people here have suggested that I didn't know.

I have a kind of love/hate relationship with screenwriting books. What I think is that, apart from some classics that everyone should read, as McKee's, reading screenwriting books is good for many reasons, even if you have some experience.

I usually buy one, then read it and then try to forget it, so its rules doesn't affect me too much. Then I re-read it, bookmark the interesting bits and there is: a useful reference book. For even in the worst books, when you are blocked, it is useful to skim-read those bookmarks, they may prove useful and spark some idea or solution in your head.

But anyway, it's clear that script and film analysis is the best school.
Learn the "rules," then you can break them. If you break them before you know them, you're flying blind.

What you really need is some sense or idea of what makes drama work, why is one thing dramatic and another not? Until you can answer this question, you're not ready to write.

The secret is simple, anticipation.

For example, let's say we're doing a simple stage play. Our opening scene has two characters enter and sit down on a divan and launch into some kind of discourse or other.

Nothing very dramatic in that.

Now let's try our opening scene again, and in our new rendition let's have a seedy looking character enter first carrying a box and on the box is the word, "Bomb." This character places his box under or behind the divan, and exits. Now our two characters make their entrance, just as before and take their places on the divan and launch into their discourse.

Much more drama here, and why? Because by leaving the box labelled "bomb" under or behind the divan, the audience knows it's going to explode at some point and they wonder how our two characters are going to surive. They are anticipating the explosive moment. They can almost hear the bomb ticking. Some may want to stand up and scream, "There's a bomb under the divan!"

To complete the scene you have to resolve the issue, one way or another. You may have the bomb go off and injure our two characters; you may have them leave before it goes off, in the nick of time; they may discover the bomb, again in the nick of time, and dispose of it before it goes off. Whichever, but you do need to resolve the matter.

That's the essence of drama.

Place your characters in jeopardy (which they themselves may realize or may not, depending) and make the jeopardy appear to be something from which there is no escape. Now you've got your audience hooked, they simply have to stick with you until they see how you get them out of jeopardy. The best drama is when you make it appear there is no possible way out, and then reveal the way out in a surprising turn of events, surprsing but believable.

When we read screenplays we keep reading so long as we're asking ourselves "How is this character going to get out of this?" Our glue will be stronger if we happen to like the character and find them to be sympathetic.

So rather than come at it from the outside in by looking for instruction on how to plot, think of it from the inside out and learn what makes something dramatic. What you'll find is that the elements of dramatic situations are always the same: characters in jeopardy with no apparent or readily plausible way out.

I would suggest two books, "The Art of Dramatic Writing," by Lajos Egri, A Touchstone Book by Simon and Shuster, ISBN 0-671-21332-6 and "The Writer's Journey," by Christopher Vogler, Published by Michael Wiese Productions, ISBN0-941188070-1.

The knowkledge you seek, however, must be created within yourself by yourself ... and this creation does require study and practice. The more you study and the more you practice, the more it will build inside of you, until one day you'll realize it is there and you may use or apply it as you see fit.

This is why you don't see any books out there that "teach it." It isn't "teachable," but it is "learnable." We've all had to learn it. You can too. It will not happen overnight of course and may take a number of years, say five or so. Write five screenplays, read what you can of books and screenplays, and by the end of all that, you will know.

There are no shortcuts, but if you happen discover any let me know and we'll get rich together.:)

[elviro]

And yet you are employed as a reader?

Shivvvver.

Yeah, man. For three years now, and the head guys are happy with me. If I ask for advice and try to learn more is to do my job still better.

[English Dave]

Yeah, man. For three years now, and the head guys are happy with me. If I ask for advice and try to learn more is to do my job still better.
Good luck with your cultural learnings.

And before you get all pissy. I've read your posts. You show a huge degree of ignorance in some and claim to be a paid reader in others.

Hence shivvvvver.

[elviro]

Good luck with your cultural learnings.

And before you get all pissy. I've read your posts. You show a huge degree of ignorance in some and claim to be a paid reader in others.

Hence shivvvvver.

OK, I'll then quote myself with the answer to someone as confused as you in another thread:

"I'm not lying. I am a reader for an european producer. I have read over 200 scripts. I've been a jury on some contests.

Of course I have learnt a lot reading these scripts. I can say that 90% of what I know I have learnt through these scripts. I'm not a developer yet, but I think I'll become one soon.

If I ask for advice, even on basic issues, is because I think I still have a lot to learn, like I suppose, you and nearly everybody. Because, as you'll know, it's not the same to have the knowledge to say what's good and what's bad -that's, in a very simple way, a reader- than to be a screenwriter.

If things were so easy, anyone who simply read the scripts of any "best films in history" list could become the new best screenwriter.

So I can't see why it's so hard to understand that I only wanted to be sincere and tell I have things to learn. I don't think I've shown ignorance, because I've not tried to be clever. Maybe you're.

[dpaterso]

As stated: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=902382&postcount=6

Let's declare a truce and offer elviro whatever advice we can.

-Derek
My Web Page - sci-fi, fantasy, horror, cyborgs, AIs, dragons, vampyres. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57)
vBulletin Tip #42: Not much would be accomplished by merging this item with itself. :)

[wordmonkey]

Toss the how-to books and look at scripts or watch some classic movies. Sit there andmake notes. You can also do this with novels because the dramatic ups and downs are gonna be the same (ish).

Go to the source.