The hardest part of screenwriting...

[Writing Again]

The hardest part of a screenplay

I think I've stumbled onto the most difficult thing to do in writing a script.

Ok, I'm personally lucky in that I've written all my life and I know what makes a good story. After looking at the writings of others I am egotistical enough to believe this sets me ahead of the pack. So I'll rate this as "easy."

Developing strong characters takes time and thought but I can always come up with them to fit the basic plot. I'll rate this as pretty easy.

Beginnings and endings take a little more work, quite a bit more time, but aside from the time and thought it takes to come up with them I don't have a real problem here so I'll rate the first and third acts as moderately easy.

The second act is medium difficult. So far every screenplay I've attempted has failed in the second act. I know how to solve second act problems in a novel, but those solutions do not work for a movie. At least I recognize when my second act is crap and I'm egotistical enough to believe this also puts me ahead of the pack. (When I solve this problem I will be proud as can be but I won't feel it qualifies me as a screenwriter)

High concept: I'm going to rate this as very difficult. So far I have not thought of a single idea that really fits into this. I've thought I've come close a couple of times, but upon examination the concept always has a flaw that detracts from it in some way.

Until now I thought that executing a high concept script was the most difficult aspect of screen writing. Not any more.

The parts will be played by actors. The movie will be directed by directors.

The best, most salable scripts have parts that actors are dying to play and have overall stories that directors are dying to direct.

This means you need to know and understand what kinds of parts fascinate actors and you have to know and understand what type of script fascinate directors: This over and above its saleability to the movie audience. This is based on the conclusion I have reached that no matter how good a movie is the best way to see it into production is to get actors and directors behind it.

I don't even have a clue. Nor do I know where to go to learn.

Any thoughts out there?

[Fartin Mowler]

What if I won a million dollars" thinking...No offence but really :rolleyes

Write a short dialog, anything and post it.

Frank

"Ya, so I was at home spanking my monkey and looking at this Screen writers site"

Bill

"You have a naughty monkey?"

Frank

"I rented him from a monkey store and thought he would be a good way to develope into a character"

Bill "Hey, that's not a bad idea"

Frank "Well, he crapped on my floor twice, but I think he's gold"

:lol

[Writing Again]

Any thoughts that are relevant?

By this I mean I believe it is entirely possible to write two versions of the same script using the same characters, with the same or very similar events, and one of those scripts would leave the actor saying, "Yeah, that is a good story," and the other have the actor yelling, ''I want to play that part."

Obviously the screenwriter wants their script to be the one the actor wants to portray.

How in the heck do you do that?

[Fartin Mowler]

My post is more relevant than yours. Posting a bunch of "What ifs" is just a waste of time. Can you write?

[kojled]

writingagain

no response at this time - just had to say how entertaining this thread is so far. holy cow


z

[DoubleIT]

Well one option is to write it FOR a specific actor and/or director. Shoot the moon and hope they like it. If you get a big actor behind your script, changes are good (A la "Dodge Ball"). You could do an Auteur study of a director, see what themes he does (If this applicable to the director) and write about those themes. Even better - write a script catering to an actor AND a director who have a previous working reltationship. If they both love it, then things are good. Maybe.

[Fartin Mowler]

(A la "Dodge Ball") :lol

[DoubleIT]

Hey, the movie got made didnt it

[Fartin Mowler]

Uh ya...so do porno's and educational films and commercials that alway's say that your gonna get diahrea from taking medicine. What's your point?

[DoubleIT]

My point is that Rawson Marshall Thurber got his film made (And directed his first screen play) because he got a major star to back him. Which was my point from the begining. Dont be an ass.

[SimonSays]

WA -

There's no one answer - actors are drawn to project for a variety of reasons. Character, story, theme, they want to work with a particular actor or director who is already attached.

A guy I know directed a film with A-List stars - what drew them to that project was neither the story nor the characters. The film was set in the South of France - and the actors (and director) all signed on for that reason alone - the location.

I once had an actress attached to one of my scripts because of one scene. She wanted to do that scene. If that scene wasn't in there - she probably wouldn't have been interested. But something about the scene resonated with her. For the life of me, I could never figure out why - I didn't even consider it the biggest scene in the script.

From what the actors I know tell me, they like to be challenged, they like character's that are complicated and complex - characters where they can get inside their heads. That's one of the reasons character development is such a key. A lot of actors will ask you for the back story of the characters - others like to make up their own histories for the characters. But they like a character where they can figure out what makes them tick.

One thing that can often be helpful, not just with character as a whole, but individual scenes is this. Many actors approach each and every scene by asking two questions. What does my character want in this scene? What is the obstacle in my character's way?

It's a good think to keep in mind because it can help you create conflict in each and every scene. So for example if a scene is set in a gas station and your main character needs directions (a simple goal) you can give the attendant a different agenda that makes it difficult for the mc to get the directions (i.e. if the attendant wants to flirt with the mc) or a language barrier or whatever.

Following this also helps you give even the smallest characters a certain amount of character.

There's a great scene in Love, Actually where Alan Rickman is buying a necklace for his girlfriend - he wants to complete the transaction quicklybecause his wife is in another part of the store. The sales clerk has a different agenda however - and that is to wrap the gift in the full holiday gift wrap regalia complete with a sprig of holly, confetti, etc. The scene goes on and on, Rickman's getting more and more impatient - the store clerk goes along in a very methodical, precise manner - obviously savoring each step of the gift wrapping process. It turned the salesman role - from a one line throw away to a full out laugh riot that was played by a major British comedy star. It jacked up the conflict and gave Rickman a great scene to play on his end as well. It's the little things like this, that can make an actor say i MUST do this.

Don't know if any of this was helpful.

[Fartin Mowler]

My point is that Rawson Marshall Thurber got his film made (And directed his first screen play) because he got a major star to back him. Which was my point from the begining. Dont be an ass.

What was your point?

[Writing Again]

Thank you, Kojled.

You are one of the people from whom I would like to see a comment.

[Writing Again]

I don't know about aiming for a specific actor or how you would get one involved with your script -- especially as an unknown.

I've met quite a few actors, some of whom don't count in this context, such as Vincent Price and Henry Fonda. It is possible Robert Wagner would remember my face if he saw it again but I really doubt it. Clint Eastwood said my wife made wonderful cheese cake when he passed through town but I never met him.

Let me see, I run down to Carmel and say, "I'm the guy whose wife made some cheese cake you liked -- Would you star in my new screenplay?"

I have a home movie of Greg Evigan kissing not one but two of my daughters on a movie set; would that count as blackmail material?

All very nice as stories go but not worth a toot in a whirlwind when pitching a script.

I'm not sure that tailoring a script for a specific actor would be the best idea. Not without prior approval anyway. Even if it were perfect for them and they loved it they have commitments and might not be available.

As a marketing strategy that does not sound good to me.

So the question comes down to what do actors as a group look for in a character that entrances them and makes them want the part? And how do you find this out?

What would make two or more actors want to compete to be the character in your script?

What would make two or more directors want to compete to get involved in making your script into a movie?

These things don't happen often but they do happen. What qualities make it happen?

[Vigorish9]

writing, i must say, you date yourself in your posts like a bad sci-fi movie. don't do that anymore, one might think you have no marbles to lose.

vig

[Writing Again]

SimonSays


You snuck in on me when I wasn't looking.

Yes, it is helpful. It is the kind of thought out comment I was looking for. It gives me things to think about, and thinking is 90% or writing in any form.

Thank you.

[Fartin Mowler]

I've met quite a few actors, some of whom don't count in this context, such as Vincent Price and Henry Fonda. It is possible Robert Wagner would remember my face if he saw it again but I really doubt it. Clint Eastwood said my wife made wonderful cheese cake when he passed through town but I never met him.


:lol OMG even if this is true...it's too funny to post stuff to make yourself seem important. good imagination though :rolleyes

[Fartin Mowler]

Robert Wagner (pretends to read a book on boat safety)

"Hey, Clint you remember that guy who got me coffee"

Clint (squints)

"Oh, Ya the guy who spilled it all over your crotch"

Robert

"His wife did make a nice cheese cake"

Clint (pulls out gun)

"Yup"

[kojled]

writing again

it's tough. you touch on so many important topics. i'll only address a couple. first, you tip your hand when you imply that you consider creating good story easy. this is complacent. it's never easy to do so. you may know what makes a good story, but if you feel it's easy creating one - well, this has to be regarded as a bad sign. the process is a combo of luck, talent, and, i don't know, a couple other things. creating mediocre story is easy, creating good story is...not


beginnings and endings: to me these are easy. i don't start a script unless i have a damn good hook and beautiful ending. and, as forrest gump would say, that's all i have to say about that


now, act II. so far every script you've attempted has failed in act II? holy @#%$. maybe, you should stick to novels. which brings me to my next point: if you can solve act II problems in novels then why not in screenplays? don't get that

as far as attracting actors, etc - don't quite understand the question


zilla

[Fartin Mowler]

I'm going to this
site...www.simplyscripts.com/unpro.html (http://www.simplyscripts.com/unpro.html)

read some scripts..you might learn something instead of asking silly questions.

[Writing Again]

it's tough. you touch on so many important topics. i'll only address a couple. first, you tip your hand when you imply that you consider creating good story easy. this is complacent. it's never easy to do so.

In this I'm compulsive. I've been writing since I was six or less. I come up with one to three ideas for stories every day, say fifteen a week. Of these at least three will be workable stories. Seldom does a month go by but what I don't have a story screaming at me to be written, but I've already got at least one other story already in the works.

For me the problem is not coming up with a good story, the problem is to pick from the best of the stories that have inundated me.

Now coming up with a high concept story -- That is different -- I'm still looking. Of course I've only been looking for a few months so the case is not yet hopeless.

beginnings and endings: to me these are easy. i don't start a script unless i have a damn good hook and beautiful ending. and, as forrest gump would say, that's all i have to say about that

That is pretty much what I do with a novel.

now, act II. so far every script you've attempted has failed in act II? holy @#%$. maybe, you should stick to novels. which brings me to my next point: if you can solve act II problems in novels then why not in screenplays? don't get that

In a way I am sticking with novels. I started out learning about screenplays just because when I got back into writing again I found a couple of Syd Field's books and at a very basic level writing is writing and anything you learn will help.

So far everything I've learned about writing screenplays is giving me better understanding of the novel. As yet I have not committed to becoming a screenplay writer -- My commitment is to learn how to write screenplays.

Solving act two problems in a novel:

A novel is subjective, one reason why I will never give up writing them entirely. My MC is pointing a gun at the villain. Thirty seconds to a minute. During this time I can show the workings of the hero's mind, his beliefs, his ability or inability to kill something or someone, all the while building tension as he attempts to force himself to pull the trigger, knowing that if he does not he and others will pay the price. Now the villain begins to approach him. He has to pull the trigger, but can he?

In a script I try something like this and I either wind up with flashbacks, dead time, or talking heads, or worse the MC narrating to himself. In a script something has to happen.

In a novel you can digress, tell a side story, intro a new character, even add complications that have little to do with the main plot: Perhaps add an entire story line that is solved when the main story is solved. So long as you hold the reader's interest it is all good.

In a screenplay you don't just toss in a new character like a cat dragging in a mouse. You can have subplots, but you have to keep the cast to a reasonable size and it has to keep the thrust of the main story moving.

I'm sure that when I've mastered the second act problems in a screenplay to the point where I can do them at least adequately the second acts in my novels will improve as well.

My question about attracting actors stems from my recent reading about movies that got made and movies that did not get made. Especially those movies that were purchased, many of which went into production.

Being a bit naive I assumed that once a movie went into production it was a pretty sure bet it would be made. I already knew that many scripts are purchased but never produced.

Most of the ones that got made have a common factor. An actor, a director, or both, got behind the movie and pushed. Sometimes more than one actor, etc.

So I'm saying to myself, the key to getting a script made into a movie is to incorporate qualities that attract actors and directors. Now I realize some of this may be just dumb luck, but surely there must be ways to stack the odds in your favor.

Simonsays post gives me some clues, I'm looking for more.

And yes, I am getting ahead of myself, but this seems like a worthwhile line of pursuit to me.

[Fartin Mowler]

For me the problem is not coming up with a good story, the problem is to pick from the best of the stories that have inundated me.

:rolleyes

[kojled]

writing again

so, you come up with 15 ideas for stories a week and consider this is synonymous with creating good story. that's great. i don't consider getting an idea for a story the same as creating a story, good or otherwise. i come up with maybe one good idea a year then spend months shaping that into an outline, then spend a year or two shaping the outline into a script. so, you and me - we don't work the same, and we don't define our terms the same.

z

[SimonSays]

I don't consider an "idea" to be a "story" and neither does the U.S. copyright office, the last time I checked.

I can brainstorm for 20 minutes and come up with 25 loglines - but those aren't stories.

[Fartin Mowler]

So I guess we have established the fact that :rolleyes Here spend some time on my challenge p197.ezboard.com/fabsolut...1093.topic (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm1.showMessage?topicID=1093.topic) instead of being a knob (colourful word for idiot). :rollin

[Writing Again]

so, you come up with 15 ideas for stories a week and consider this is synonymous with creating good story.

Not what I said, nor meant.

Of these 15 three will be workable stories. Three contain everything needed to create a story, beginning, middle, end, characters and situations. Not necessarily great ideas, but will make a full fledged novel. I come up with an idea that really grabs me about once a month whether I'm looking for it or not.

I've had stories burst full blown from my mind and all I had to do was record them, others have perked in the back of my mind for years. I don't know about screenwriters but this is common among novelists.

i come up with maybe one good idea a year

You of course are talking about ideas for screenplays.

Believe it or not that is a useful datum to me. I come up with two to four a year -- But once again I'm thinking in terms of novels. Not screenplays.

So I need to think in terms of how many good screenplay ideas I come up with, and I have to consider the possibility that I tossed out a good screenplay idea because it did not fit my concept of what a novel should be.

As I say, I'm learning, and I'm not always sure what to learn, and I get things from these forums books do not give me.

then spend months shaping that into an outline, then spend a year or two shaping the outline into a script

I said nothing about how long it takes me to develop an idea into a story. This varies on my job, family, life in general, and the story itself. However I do not consider this to be either work or difficult -- this is play time -- This is when I'm having fun -- When the family has to drag me in to supper at night. I love this phase most of all.

There is no joy on earth like that of having solved a story problem that has had me baffled for days, weeks, or months.

Of course there is no aspect of writing that I don't enjoy. Even rewriting and editing. I write because there is nothing that makes me happier.

so, you and me - we don't work the same, and we don't define our terms the same

This is probable, but I doubt it is to the extent you think.

[Writing Again]

I don't consider an "idea" to be a "story" and neither does the U.S. copyright office, the last time I checked.

I did not imply such a thing. I said, (a) I know what makes a good story, and (b) ideas for stories come easily to me.

However I don't do as well as a short story writer who must come up with at least 52 sales a year to earn a basic living. The reason I switched to novels was because I'm not capable of that high volume high quality output.

I can come up with ideas for two or three good novels per year -- Wish I had the time to write them.

I had a friend who wrote and sold 4 to 5 short stories a week. And he still had time to drink beer and chase women.

You by the way, Simon, gave me one heck of an idea a while back for a story -- If I can ever figure out how to achieve a really good second act.


I can brainstorm for 20 minutes and come up with 25 loglines - but those aren't stories.

I'm impressed.

It took me months to even figure out what a logline was and what it was supposed to achieve. I can sit down for two hours and maybe come up with something that can be made into a logline.

Took me days to come up with a couple of loglines for the script you gave me an idea for, and I still am not happy with either one.

However I have discovered that writing, or attempting to write, a logline for a faulty chapter in a novel can diagnose the problem and suggest a cure. So I'm happy.

[Fartin Mowler]

www.lifeformz.com/cgi-bin/idea/idea.cgi (http://www.lifeformz.com/cgi-bin/idea/idea.cgi)

[Writing Again]

This thread has benefited me although it did get sidetracked by the debate "is creating a story easy" and I never meant to imply that it was taken separately.

I was measuring the relative ease of various aspects of writing a screenplay. But perhaps other people have different orders of difficulty. Still somethings are easier to do than others.

The most difficult idea I have encountered so far is the problem of creating a character that actors would really want to play.

Just thinking along this line makes me review every character in my novel and my screenplay.

What can I do to make this character more interesting, more challenging, more desirable for an actor to portray?

What can I do to make this story more interesting, more challenging, more desirable for a director to direct?

Of those two questions I think the first is an easier challenge than the second. SimonSays gave me clues to the first -- I'm still without clues to the second.

[kojled]

wa

you've painted yourself into a corner. twisted logic and complex denials will not help. we know what you said, meant, and implied


z

[SimonSays]

Hey WA-

As with what draws an actor - there's no one answer to what draws a director.

Some directors are drawn to theme. Tim Burton's a good example of that - he's drawn to stories about outcasts, people on the outside, people who are misunderstood, dreamers. If you look through his filmography - pretty much all his films explore that.

Some directors are drawn to the visual aspects of a screenplay.

Some are drawn to the story itself.

It really varies - because directors vary. Some directors are all about directing the actors - and they are normally more drawn to the story and characters. Others are more technical or artistic and so they are drawn to the "world" of the story or the action aspects.

In general all directors want a screenplay that clicks with them on some level and allows them to filter it through their own vision of the world. They want to be able to put their own imprint on the film, regardless of the subject matter.

Sorry I can't give you more insight than that - I'm not a director myself.

[Writing Again]

Thank you Simon,

Once again you have given me clues: Perhaps that is the best that can be had.

What I got out of your post is to do a little appropriate research. If I write a play with strong visuals then I look for movies that have strong visuals and try to understand what attracted the director to those movies. Not easy, not certain, but stacking the deck in my favor.

The same principle would apply to story, or any other major aspect of the script. Determine what the stories strongest draw would be and then attempt to appeal to the directors who prefer that type of movie.

Even if this doesn't help it certainly won't hurt.

[Hamboogul]

What I find most difficult about writing scripts is being able to come to a temporary truce with my inner critic.

Sometimes I win over my critic that I write freely. But that has consequences, too. I may falsely believe my writing is great.

Sometimes the inner critic wins and I am afraid to make certain story decisions, resulting in me throwing my pages, acts, or the entire script away.

It's a balance and it's one that I struggle with on a daily basis.

[Writing Again]

I've never quite been able to believe my writing was great, although at times I get so carried away with a story that I can barely stand it, and can't wait to get it on paper.

The thing I hate about writing the most is when I look at the words I've written and they look like crap, scrawly kid garbage a three year old would do...

But I know if I wait it will pass.

Lately my inner critic has had one steady refrain, "The second act does not measure up," and it is right.

[Uday Hussein]

Hardest part: making the right choices.

[scripter1]

These are stories that everyone around the world can enjoy and understand. They take themes that are world wide and span origin or age.

They also spark the imagination and naturally create some really cool scenes and require interesting characters.

Look at any of the really big blockbusters.

Pirates of the Caribbean - What is a good man? Cursed Pirates who can't be killed.

Eternal Sunshine - Dealing with loss, painful memories.
If you could get rid of them, would you?

LOTR - Overcoming evil, responsibility, even the smallest can make a difference, friendship and loyalty.
Several people of different races must undertake a journey that at every step could claim their lives in order to save their world.
(Keep in mind Peter STILL had to really, really fight for this one even though it was/is one of the best known literary works and there was a guaranteed market.)

Jurassic Park - Man's arrogance, bringing dinos back.
It's supposed to be a nice zoo but what happens when things go wrong?

The Matrix - Self worth, believing in yourself. Humanity's inherent need to control our own destiny. Computers used to serve us, now we serve them. One group of humans fights backs.

The Terminator (s) - Responsibility, Humanity v the future we make. Can you fix the future by changing the past?
A killing machine comes from the future in order to stop the birth of the future leader of humanity.


These are just my off the cuff takes on these. Others feel free to chime in.

But all of these are things any one around the world can watch and understand. They are Universal concepts.
And they are BIG. Everything about them screams COOL!
Each one requires unique characters in order to fully explore the story.
What would Pirates be with out the contrast and conflicts between Jack, Will, and Barbosa?
The Matrix without Neo's problems contrasted against the Lawrence Fishburn character and then The Agent?

Now, you can come up with ideas from two different directions. Story from character OR story from concept.
Check out these two articles from Bill Martell.

www.scriptsecrets.net/tips/tip166.htm (http://www.scriptsecrets.net/tips/tip166.htm)

www.scriptsecrets.net/art...zombie.htm (http://www.scriptsecrets.net/articles/zombie.htm)

an article about character.

www.scriptsecrets.net/tips/tip300.htm (http://www.scriptsecrets.net/tips/tip300.htm)

I hope these help.