First pages of my new script

[DoubleIT]

nevermind

[DoubleIT]

I just changed and added some scenes. Up to 28 pages.

[DoubleIT]

Updated to 34 pages. Some other changes elsewhere in the script as well. Hoping for some feedback at some point!

[kojled]

double it

okay, here's some feedback. 'against the grain' is a pretty lame title


zilla

[SimonSays]

Doub -

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to do here - but whatever it is - it isn't working. I assume you are going for surreal and non-linear storytelling. But you cannot get away with being surreal - unless the sur-reallity and the characters are riveting - in this case, neither are.

34 pages in and I don't know anything about or give a damn about Maddy or Jordan - this is not good. 34 pages in and nothing has happened. Also not good.

You have done absolutely nothing in the first 34 pages to dramatize or even set-up the scenario you described in your original posting. Aside for one line of dialogue - there's no way you'd know that Maddy is an aspiring writer - and as for her and Jordan being opposites - you haven't developed either one of them enough for us to know if they are exactly the same or totally different. They both seem to be extremely unlucky - which makes them more alike than different.

The aftermath of the semi driving through Jordan's house is mind-boggling. A semi smashes through his home - and the police suspect him of being behind it? Huh? There are quite alot of Huhs? in the first 34 pages. I assume that was your intention. Sometimes Huh works well (think Charlie Kaufman) other times it doesn't.

You appear to have thrown all the conventions of screenwriting out the window. I'm not so sure it is advisable to do so under any circumstances, but certainly not until you have mastered those conventions.

[DoubleIT]

What if most that 34pages is put into a more linear order and is used as the second act instead? I guess you cant really tell til you see it, but i agree you dont know enough about the characters to care, and if its the end of the first act and yuo dont care theres a problem. I disagree that nothign has happened, a ton has happened, you just dont care.

[SimonSays]

doub -

Nothing has happened to move the story forward. Alot of backstory stuff - episodes from their childhood, etc. Scattered events, nothing building upon anything else.

As for your other question - even if you structured it linearlly they seem to be alot of independent events that don't really connect to each other (i.e. the breakfast scene when Maddy's little, the scene where the TV falls on her boyfriend, the scene when she crashes her car) Putting the scenes in chronological order will not link them in any real way.

What exactly are you trying to achieve? Why did you choose this method? Why did you choose to not develop the characters? All those things were obviously choices on your part. If I knew what you were trying to accomplish, maybe I could give you better direction.

[Hamboogul]

MADDY, 21, crawls on the ground, struggling to stand. Blood
runs out of the huge gash in her forehead, her right arm
bleeds from various spots and a massive bruise is exposed
through her torn, white shirt. Her red parka is unzipped and
in shreds. Wobbly, she attempts to stand but only falls back
to the ground. Her second attempt brings her to her knees.
Everything is hazy. The little bit of color left in her face
drains away as she begins to violently puke. She falls back
over and closes her eyes.

I stopped reading after this because it's clearly overwritten and, as a reader, I make an unfair assumption that everything else of the script will be overwritten.

Why not simply write:

MADDY, 21, her clothes in shreds and body bleeding all over, crawls on the ground. She fights to remain conscious and to get up. She chokes on her vomit before she passes out.

[DoubleIT]

Hm. Perhaps it is a bit over written. Good sugestion.

I am reworking it now. What is posted now will be the first part of ACT 2, ACT 1 is going to focus on their lives as there were normally - hers good being a writer at age 22, his bad as a child growing up. This is where we will ID with the characters and hopefully like them. The weird stuff in ACT will be more coherent and not so over written.

I"m not going to lie... I was sitting in the shower and was sort of hit with an idea. Instead of outlining and developing the characters, I just wrote for a week. I guess it shows, and that technique doesnt work too well. I am going to work on my character sketches and make an outline and hopefully save this. I dont think im supposed to use this word, but I am also going to focus on making it a bit more comercial.

Keep your thoughts coming. I need this sort of critiquing. Thanks a lot.

[SimonSays]

Doub -

It is a little unfair of you to ask others to take a 1/2 hour of their time to read something that you didin't even bother to think out or craft.

Most of us are busy with our lives and our own writing and don't have the time to give people feedback on their personal writing experiments.

Ham is right that it is overwritten. The dialogue is completely unmemorable.

I wouldn't ask my closest friend to read pages of mine in the shape your pages were in. You probably shouldn't ask for feedback again until you have done the 2nd draft of the complete script.

[DoubleIT]

If I hadnt asked I may have continued down this current path for another 60 pages, so its been more than beneficial for me, and thats really the point, isn't it? I'm still trying to hone my style and am at very important and impressionable point in my writing career. I'm sorry if you feel I waisted your time but I hope you'll read my next draft when its complete. Your comments have been helpful and insightful. I guess in the grand scheme, 30 minutes isn't much, and if it saved me three weeks, well I hope you realize it WASNT a waist of time at all.

Also dont think I didn't take time to think things out. This script is ALL i have been thinking about.

[kojled]

double it

read the excerpt posted by hamboogul. typically overblown and lacking focus and forward drive. 'everything gets hazy' is cliche 'not filmable' writing. 'begins to puke violently' is so typically, and i'm sorry - laughably beginner. you're ability is undeveloped and not guided by training or study.

you have a long way to go. currently, you can be placed with the tens of thousands of unskilled wannabes who attack the industry with their lousy scripts every year. good luck separating yourself from this horde


zilla

[SimonSays]

Doub -

I'm glad you found the feedback Ham and I gave you helpful - but I don't think it's your call whether or not 30 minutes is or isn't much time. After all, it was MY time.

If I remember correctly - you are in film school - you are studying the craft - you should KNOW the basics of the craft. You should KNOW what descriptions should be like and what is required to develop character. If you do not know these things, I humbly suggest you consider transferring to a better film school.

If you do know these things, then I humbly suggest you that you implement what you have learned - and not operate under the impression that since you believe you "Have It" - the rules don't apply to you.

If you choose to do neither of those things, then I humbly suggest that you do not impose on the other writer's on this board to critique your work.

Happy New Year,
Simon

[kojled]

doubleit

you are as cliche as it gets - the newbie writer who believes his work is good but that the reader 'just doesn't care' or 'doesn't get it'. you also don't care if you waste the reader's time. you submit work before it is ready to read and balk at criticism. and, most importantly, you can't write and will do nothing to change this.


good luck
zilla

[dpaterso]

DoubleIT, maybe I'm too late in saying so but I found your script sample wordy and meandering and unfocused. I wanted to stop reading after 5 pages -- got up and made myself a plate of sandwiches around 20 pages, etc. Shrug, my reaction, each to their own.

Now, if you'll just lie down on the floor and open your legs wide, I'll take a running kick at your nuts that'll leave you sobbing in agony for days. This will "toughen you up" for Hollywood. And also help you in dealing with the warmth and friendship you'll encounter on this and other screenwriting message boards.

Maybe it's not too late to outline, if you haven't already? Taking a sheet of paper and reducing your three acts to major plot points and analyzing character arcs could help you see why your sample hasn't exactly won prizes (yet).

One other thing -- there's value in making just 5 or maybe 10 pages at most available. That way you'll get to see whether readers are interested enough to ask for more -- and they won't feel they've wasted a significant slice of their lives. Worst thing you can do, if you haven't realized already, is air an unplanned, unchecked, hot-off-the-presses, chunky first draft. This is highly unlikely to win you fans and may well get you ignored in future when you need more feedback.

Best wishes for the season.

-Derek
-----------------------My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57)

[Writing Again]

I'm definitely late but I've been out of it a bit with the holidays so I'll pitch in.

The first thing that struck me is that nothing comes before "Fade in": Just doesn't happen. You could fade to black.

The next is not that the first paragraph is over written -- That is not, to my way of thinking -- Its worst sin. You spend nine lines telling us nothing about her except that she is a bloody mess at 21. You don't give us a single reason to even assume she is the person we should sympathize with except she is the first we see. We don't have a clue if she was assaulted by big bad meanies, smacked by a train, or if she were beaten up by a sweet old lady protecting jewels Maddy was trying to steal.

We don't even know what kind of movie we are watching.

Next you jump into a flashback. The simple rule to go by is to not use flashbacks. That is because most newbie screenwriters have a hard time with the complex rule: Don't use a flashback until the audience wants to see it; until they care what happens in the past.

Once into the flashback you spend time on the mailman who apparently has nothing to do with the story, a long time on the neighborhood which apparently has nothing to do with the movement of the story, and then an idyllic scene which seems to do nothing except to show how sweet Maddy's life is before she is beaten to a pulp.

There is still nothing that sets Maddy apart and makes me like her more than any other teenage girl I see walking in the mall every day.

Here is my rule: If the audience misses a scene and they don't feel they have lost something then you have lost something.

[Writing Again]

Here is an opening that might work better with reasons why.

Granted your movie is probably not horror / supernatural, but you can apply the same principles no matter what the genre.


FADE TO BLACK:

Maddy V.O.
How long has it been?

EXT. ROADSIDE DITCH - NIGHT
MADDY, 21 dressed in conservative clothes, looking like the girl you would take home to mother, rolls down into the bottom of a ditch. She is beaten, torn, bloody. At first glance the way her clothes are ripped and torn you would think someone had raped her or attempted to rape her.

In her hand is clutched a wolf's head ring.

Several people appear behind her wearing Egyptian masks and long capes.

One reaches down, pries the ring from her fingers, holds it up high to show it to everyone.

A bright rainbow of lights emanate from the ring.

EXT. MADDY's HOUSE - MORNING


Why:

FADE TO BLACK: covers the gauche V.O. prior to FADE IN:

I put her in conservative clothing so the audience immediately knows something about her and so when the audience believes she was raped they will feel more sympathy for her. A girl dressed as a hooker will not get as much sympathy: someone will say, "She asked for it."

I put in the potential rape so that the rest, which is trite in and of itself, will have more effect and to set the audience up for the belief, "You better watch this movie close because what you first expect is not necessarily what is going to happen.

The wolf's head ring sets the audience up for, but does not anticipate the Egyptian masks: Thus even though they are not expecting Egyptian masks they don't come "out of the blue" and the audience does not feel cheated. A sort of "unexpected but inevitable" applied in the first scene.

The Egyptian masks and the emanations from the ring tell the audience what kind of movie they are watching.

Now the audience is prepared to wonder, "How did a nice girl like her get in a place like this?"

Is this too cold blooded and analytical? When writing a novel the answer might be yes, but when writing a screenplay the answer is that no amount of analysis can be too much: Every detail has to count at least once, and if possible three times.

[DoubleIT]

Thanks a lot for your criticisms WritingAgain. Its a perfect example of how this message board could be a more friendly and helpful environment. I realize I was pre-mature in posting this draft, i just didnt realize how angry it made people. I read most of the old posts on here in an attempt to 'learn the ropes' of the site. I didnt really see anything like this so I just figuerd id post all of it and if soemone read it, great, if not, il take what I can. I figure a lot of people are on here waisting time because they dont feel like writing at the moment. Remember - bad writing is important to read too! I think some of you need to be a bit more respectful, however. But i'd rather not dwell in the past, and i have much better things to do than get into an argument on a messageboard. I think we can move on from all of this .

I took three days off from writing and now have a MUCH better structure , a much better begining and have pretty much removed the use of flash backs. The idea i had and the story I want to tell is more clear as well. Perhaps ill post the new first act in a few weeks. Probably not on here though.

[SimonSays]

Doub -

I think you are missing where the true lack of respect is in this little scenario.

You showed a considerable lack of respect for your fellow writers by posting something that was so undeveloped, sloppy and not ready for prime-time requesting feedback. If you had taken a couple of weeks or even a couple of days to think about and re-read your pages, you wouldn've known yourself that it wasn't working and you could have made an attempt to address some of the problems and weaknesses without imposing on others.

My experience in Hollywood is that people are willing to help you out but you often only get one shot at help and if you do not respect those you are approaching enough to take the value of their time into consideration - you will in the end blow what shots you have. If a pro contact in the real word had offered to read your pages, they would in all liklihood not have offered to re-read your revisions, because your pages showed that either you don't know enough about screenwriting to be taken seriously or you don't care enough about your work to make it work. Either way you would have blown it.

I hope you take this post in the spirit that it is intended, and that is to get you to develop a little more respect for others so that when you reach a point that you are ready to send your work out in the world for real and leverage what connections you have, you make the most of them and don't sabotage yourself.

In real world Hollywood 101 - you got a D.

Live, Learn, Listen.

Simon

[Ravenlocks01]

I think some of you need to be a bit more respectful, however.
Why do so many newbs feel their fellow writers owe them something? When you're getting a favor (such as somebody reading your writing), you're the one in debt. Nobody owes you a favor.

[DoubleIT]

Jeesh. I never said anyone owed me anything and never acted in such a way. I am used to forums where people are there for fun and to kill time . I guess this is a more professional forum and I will treat it as such from now on. In no way did i intend to disrespect anyone by posting a script to be read. I feel like this has been blown way out of proportion. But as I said, I'm over it, I'm retooling my script and I see no need for this thread to continue. I tried to delete the topic but I guess I cant...

[Vigorish9]

when you get to the bottom of why you got the negative feedback is how you posted.

you can't say register it now with the wga, when it's clear the closest you're going to come to that exclusive group is 8 bucks, some popcorn, a sticky floor and some guy talking throughout the movie.

at least that is what your pages indicated.

vig

[kojled]

doubleit

you mean to stand there and admit to everyone you just wanted 'to have fun and kill time'? you can't be serious. what a doof. kill as much time as you want. one day you'll be a middle aged doof who has killed the best part of their life by not taking things seriously. don't go down that path. you don't want to know what heartbreak there is


zilla

[DoubleIT]

No, thats not what I was saying. I was saying I am used to message boards that are like that. So if i were to post a script on there and someone were to read it, it would be because they didnt have anything better to do. I've appologized about a million times now. I wish there were mods on this forum so this thread could be locked. Theres no need to continue discussing this.

[JustinoXV]

To be totally honest DoubleIT, I question the wisdom of even posting your script online or on forums. Perhaps the attitudes you get will slap some sense into you.

When you have finished a draft, find someone who you can get along with and who you know has the professional background to critique your work. Find yourself a tutor or mentor.

The best advice Simon gave you and Mac is that this forum should not be your primary resource for learning about screenwriting. Yet the both of you continue to ignore him. Well, there is a saying that a hard head sits on top of a sore ass.:) Basically, when you're too harded you get spanked.:)

Seriously, with all the fights, flames, and disagreements we've had on this forum, why on earth would anyone hear think it is productive to post something where it is accessible to all? Some of the guys on this forum are script consultants (paid). Private message or email them to see if they will deal with you one on one. Make sure it is someone who has industry credits, and someone who you can get along with. And make sure the fees are reasonable.

[Vigorish9]

justino, you're an idiot. first off, these message boards are loaded with people who can help you without paying.

the writer, especially the novice is supposed to network with like writers or better, to help them shrink the learning curve.

your contiual inablity to understand that most writers aren't even close to having enough money to pay for hte service and the skill for it to even help.

these boards are for you to get help from other writers. you have this idiotic idea not to send out your work to writers as if someone is going to steal your idea and you send out the work thinking it's good.

double, be humble, find some people who will read your work and shut your mouth. go to this site www.scriptsales.com and to the script pages forum and you will get free feedback from people and the ability to cultivate relationships with writers who will help you.

justion was thrown off that site because he's a idiot.

don't listen to justino anymore he has no idea what he is talking about and will do more to your failure than your forward movement.

on the site i spoke of justino got into it with a writer who has written three published books, has a deal with a big five studio and is one of the writers who is up for the big jobs and all he could keep on doing is asking about his creds and credentials. JUSTINO IS a MORONE.

vig

[SimonSays]

Doub -

You're contention that on the other sites, people read scripts because "they didn't have anything better to do" once again shows a total lack of consideration and respect. There is always something better to do, be it working on your own stuff, reading well written, produced screenplays, spending time with family or friends or jerking off while watching soft core porn on Skinemax.

People read other people's scripts because they have a desire to help other writers, whether they expect a quid pro quo read of their own work or not.

You obviously still don't 'get' this, despite the numerous attempts by others to explain it to you. Unless or until you really can appreicate what other people can and will do for you, you will shoot yourself in the foot.

Nobody owes you anything. Any feedback to your work or responses to one of your numerous posts requesting information - is a gift by those who respond.

Many on this board are far beyond you in experience and knowledge. They have nothing to learn by reading your poorly written samples and have no questions about the craft or the business that you could answer. They are motivated only by the desire to help you.

You will do yourself a huge favor if you remember that fact and keep it in the back of your mind whenever you approach anyone for help and advice in the future.

[DoubleIT]

p

[DoubleIT]

Ok let me try and explain this... I've never been on a script forum before. On other message boards that I've been on its for entertainment. So <<<IF>>> someone were to post a screen play it would be read because someone was killing time. I KNOW thats not the case HERE. I was trying to relate my previous forum experience to this one in an attempt to explain why I posted my screen play in the state that it was in. I now understand the way it works here and will gladly adhere to that standard from now on.

I was using this site as a place to get help with a rough draft since it was my only option for assistance in that stage. I am a novice who needs guidance. I actually didn't expect the entire thing to be read. You keep thinking I am being disrespectful but its the exact opposite! I would not have posted a rough draft like I did had I know that wasn't acceptable. I know for you it seems totally idiotic for someone to do such a thing, but for me it seemed logical. Many forums have a 'stickied' post explaining the rules of the site to prevent something just like this from happening. Its not a matter of disrespect, rather a matter of not knowing the rules and precedents, a simple misunderstanding. A different script site might encourage rough drafts! I hope you can now understand my position because in no way would I come on here to disrespect, demand or interfere with the invaluable Skinemax time :)

In reading the old posts on the site I had immediate respect for you based on the help you had given others. I am simply trying to clarify what happened so I dont lose your respect.

Hopefully we can put this matter to rest and continue with our regularly scheduled program. All the best,

Double It

[Dew Fuzz]

DoubleIT

You don't have to stop posting links to your script pages. I believe what turned some people off, and it is as you explained it, you wrote these pages in one week without any revisions on your part. This translates as "a lack of effort." When you ask for feedback, you want people to put in effort so they can constructively give you assistance. It isn't fair to expect effort from others when you didn't give any.

As you say, let's put it behind us, because I'm sure you are someone who does give effort, and this one just a one-time mistake. Like I said, you are welcome to seek advice on your script pages by posting a link to the script or by posting a couple of pages (DoneDeal's standard is 5 per thread. I don't know Jennifer's standard, but let's assume it's the same. She doesn't have a moderator for this forum so we have to help her out.)

After you have you have revised your pages to the point where you are ready to show others, feel free to post the link again.

[JustinoXV]

"the writer, especially the novice is supposed to network with like writers or better, to help them shrink the learning curve."

Network. Ha, Ha!

There's plenty of networking in LA. And in most cases for most would be writers nothing will ultimately come of it.

A novice having another novice read his work isn't at all likely to lead to improvements in writing.

As for paying for writer's workshops, classes, or consultants, you ultimately can do that if you get a JOB and SAVE.