A crappy deal that was proposed to me

[JustinoIV]

A producer claimed that some people were interested in a horror script and he's like to pass it on. They'd want to attach themselves. Supposedly it was going to be a done deal.

So anyway, I give him permission to submit to those people. It turns out they were two screenwriters supposedly under a couple of work for hire deadlines. They wanted to rewrite my script, and submit it to their agent with all of their names on it. After they read my script they just asked that I mail it to the agent (I did not sign any agreement with them, nor did they rewrite my script).

I rejected the entire deal. What would have happened is that any proceeds from the sale would have been divided up between myself, and the other two screenwriters, and the manager would have taken 25%.

So I would have gotten 25% of a script I wrote (actually less, because the agent would have taken 10%). The deal would have been for $50000 (the script sale). Agent would have taken 10%, and I would have taken $10,000.

So after telling all parties no, I then decided I only deal with mainstream agents.

[lowellgrippo]

I don't suppose they revealed who the interested party was, did they? Then, you could have dealt with them directly, and maybe gotten paid what you deserve. That's got to bite a big one...

[joecalabre]

It's not uncommon for a manager/agent to bring is a "closer" writer to make the script more appealing to a producer and guarantee a sale.

Is this your first sale?
Will it get you into the WGA?
All things to consider to get in the game.

My suggestion is...
I do think that you should get both credit and compensation for "story by" and as "Initial Screenwriter (1st on list of credits)." If you haven't burnt your bridges, I would go back to them and say that plus, state that you feel that the other two writers should split their portion among themselves as if one writer.

So.
10% Agent $5,000
25% Manager $12,500
25% the two writers $12,500
40% you. $20,000

In either case, $10 grand is better than none and a small price to pay if it get's your career off the ground.

Remember, everything is negotiable.
Never say "no..". Say "I'll get back to you..."

That's my two cents.

Joe

[kojled]

j4

have to agree. why be a chump? if you have the talent you'll work sooner or later. selling out to get your foot in the door ain't right. let the losers deal with hollywood bottom feeders. there's plenty of both to go around


zilla

[JustinoIV]

I'm not desperate for money, and if someone likes my screenplays, so will others. So meanwhile, I can work a regular job while I continue to shop my screenplays around and deal with legit agents. I've no interest in dealing with those people who are hoping to make money of off the desperation of screenwriters. I don't need them at all.

Already I've been corresponding with other agents..............

[JustinoIV]

I think, Joe, you maybe thinking that if someone showed interest in your work, that you should be glad that showed interest. However, I think that if someone shows interest in my work, and I'm willing to talk to them, I think they should be happy that I was considering a deal, considering how much money can be made off a good script.

[joecalabre]

J4

I think you misunderstood me.

I'm not saying you should bend over and let them have their way with you, but there is always room for negotiation. All I said is never say no, leave your options open. Come back with a counter offer.

50K for a script is pretty good for a first timer. In fact it's about the going rate for a non-major studio project. Don't look at WGA minimums unless your in the guild. Also, I don't see these people as con artists. It is common to bring in other writers. Your job is to make sure they don't get everything, that is why I suggested you counter with them getting only one share and not two (that's standard). It is very common for a manager to bring in an agent. Wait till you add your lawyer's fees and taxes on top of that. Even the best writers, make very little take home after everything is divided up...

Whenever you read that a writer got low six against mid six, that is the end result. There was weeks of negotiating to get to that point which no one ever reads about.

As for your script is a good script and other agents/producers will come eventually, everything in Hollywood is timing. A good script today may not be considered good tomorrow. No script is timeless. Sell while it's hot.

Good luck to you and your career. Do what's in your heart, but not so where your blinded to the bigger picture at hand-- establishing yourself as a selling writer. Then you can command more.

A story I like to tell is Frank Darabond was brought in to write Nightmare on Elm street 3 (one of his first scripts). He wrote a good chunk based on Wes's story. He was supposed to get a percentage of the final budget and $25,000 up front. When all was said and done, he had to split the writer's percentage with a closer writer, Chuck Russell, (brought in because Frank didn't see eye to eye with Wes) and the final budget was played with and much lower than promised. Frank ended up with very little (had to split upfront money and percentage with Chuck), but as a result, He established himself as an upcoming writer, made a good relationship with Chuck and wrote other projects together, and is today considered one of the best (sellable) writers out there.

Joe

[JustinoIV]

Joe,

I presented this scenario to working, credited screenwriters and they all told me to run like hell!

First of all, managers do not take 25%. That's a con.

Second of all, the other two screenwriter DID NO WORK. They should not be paid or credited. After a script is SOLD, then production company or studio may hire other screenwriters. This isn't done before. I do not do writing partnerships. I work alone as a screenwriter.

I would have gotten 10,000, not 50000.

I'm running this scenario by mainstream LA agents and entertainment lawyers. I don't think any major rep that I would speak to would even let me consider such a deal.

Obviously if those parties thought my script was viable, certainly others will as well. You shop around to different buyers, seeing what prices you will get. Agents often send scripts to different studios and producers in order to get bidding wars. The price goes up.

Those particular people I had dealt with were looking for a quick buck and an easy sell. Only I'm not interested.

I might add I don't find a Joe Calabrese in the imdb credits. So I'm going to assume presently you are not a professional screenwriter.

Topics like this one are why I agree with Simon Says. Don't pay too much attention to what is said on these boards, because they are few industry professionals here. All the LAindustry pros I have spoken to have told me the deal was wrong, and that I shouldn't deal with those people at all.

[joecalabre]

Try Joseph Calabrese on on IMdb. Not up to date, but still I'm there.

Are you?

And you can look at my website at www.renderville.com (http://www.renderville.com)

I'm not saying go with the deal. All I said was negotiate and don't just say no. Thier job is to screw you. Yours is to negotiate. Even Paramount will try and screw you if you let them.

You have a very superficial idea of how this business works. There are no bidding wars. In fact, if an agent gets an offer from a company, he cannot present the project to another company until the offer has been rejected. If he did, he would ruin his contact's trust and ultimately his career.

By the way.
Let say you did only get 10 grand. You would have had a sale and your chances of getting an agent would increase ten fold. Your chances of becoming a working writer would also benefit.

You make it seem like this is the only good script you'll ever have and your holding out for the best deal possible. I would hope you have a few more up your sleeves, otherwise your in trouble.

Good luck and do what you want, but keep those eyes open and be realistic to what this business is-- a business.

Joe

[JustinoIV]

"You make it seem like this is the only good script you'll ever have and your holding out for the best deal possible. I would hope you have a few more up your sleeves, otherwise your in trouble."

I never said this was the only good script I had. Only all the qualified industry professionals I spoke to said this was a deal worth rejecting.

I'm a beginner, so of course I'm not on imdb.com But you had only one actual writing credit, and one associate credit. I wouldn't consider you an expert on how to launch a career as a screenwriter. Those I spoke to on this matter had substantially more credits.

And of course, this is a business. And, as in any business, if a proposal comes my way and I don't like it, I'm free to reject it.

If I were selling any product, item, good, or property, if someone comes my way with an offer I do not like, I'm free to reject it, if I chose to do so. And that's the nature of any business.


Since I am the OWNER of the script it is my right to sell or not to sell. It's my right to decide what is, or isn't acceptable to me. And that's also business.


"You have a very superficial idea of how this business works. There are no bidding wars. In fact, if an agent gets an offer from a company, he cannot present the project to another company until the offer has been rejected. If he did, he would ruin his contact's trust and ultimately his career."

I never said he could. However, at least in publishing, from the onset, agents can indeed submit to more than one company when they initially start sending out the script. Doesn't mean they have offers at that time. For that matter, the screenwriter himself/herself, or the lawyer can do submissions. So if more than one party read and liked the script, you could indeed have bidding.


But if you know so much about this business, why are your credits so minor?
Well, a credited screenplay with more credits than you told me that in some cases that are bidding wars. I don't know about that, you claim one thing while he claims the next. But that is neither here nor there.

The bottom line was that I did not like the deal.

You are not getting any money from the proposed deal, so there is no need for you to argue in favor of me signing anything, is there?

If you would have accepted it, that is your perogative. But I won't.

[JustinoIV]

I might add I checked with Writer's Beware on the history of this so called agent. Turns out she had a modeling class business/modeling agency. In other words, she appears to have had a history of scams, and upon further searches in google, I came across some of them.

Thank god I didn't sign anything with these people, including any kind of representation deal.

I think if you're too desperate to get something, you make yourself more vulnerable and more likely to be screwed out of a lot of money.

[joecalabre]

Good for you. Your gut was right.

From your original post, you seemed (seemed not said) to have gotten an offer you didn't like and just dropped the whole thing without negotiating or making any counter offer.

Not having all the facts, I could only give you a basic comment on the rules of engagement when dealing with producers, managers, other writers, etc...

I felt that you seem turned off to managers and unknown companies all together and said you will only deal with established agents from now on. I wanted to give you some reassurance that all is not as bad as you think...

I just wanted to tell you that some of what you experienced is normal in the business. (and some not, like 25% for a manager).

I also wanted to tell you, not to give up when given a bad offer. Negotiate.

I once had an 6 month option from a newbie producer (who is now very big and influential) and I kick myself in the head for not playing the game better. If I had, you might be seeing a lot more credits on IMDB. I took a five year break from writing as a result.

Good luck and keep trying, but keep open to all avenues in getting you work. It takes time. I've been back at it for a little over a year now and as a result I have a great manager (who gets 10%), got two rewrite assignments going into production this year and my latest spec may be sold soon.

Keep at it.
:grin

[JustinoIV]

Yes, but I'm told by an entertainment lawyer, that if they were submitting my script to one of their work for hire projects, that they would not even be able to offer me a writing credit. Since the contract that had with the party on the other end would have only admitted those two as writers.

Had a signed on to this deal, I might not have even gotten ANY writing credits!

That, along with the reduced compensation, is why I rejected the offer.

Congradulations to your latest deals, and I wish you the best of luck.

[SimonSays]

Justino, you are right it is a crappy deal and you were right to walk away from it.

There is so much incorrect or misleading information in Joe's responses to you it is somewhat mindblowing.

First of all the contention that Non-Guild writers should not expect Guild minimum rates is totally untrue - at least if the production company is a Guild signatory. In order to be a guild signatory - companies are required to abide by the terms of the the Minimum Basic Agreement whether the writer is a member or not. Selling to or being hired by a guild signatory is how a writer gains credits to become a guild member.

If the company is not a guild signatory then a writer will not gain any credits toward becoming eligible to join the guild. So selling a script to a non-signatory production co. will NOT help you get into the Guild.

The contention that agents do not submit to more than one company at a time to create a bidding situation is also untrue. Agents do it all the time with projects they consider highly commercial. In those cases they inform all parties that it is a simultaneous submission. My agent's done it and I know other writers who've had it done as well.

The other thing to keep in mind is that building a career in this buisness is a chess game, it's very strategic. And jumping on a really bad deal just to have a credit - if the thing ends up being a total piece of crap or never seeing the light of day, is bad strategy.

If you are dealing with small production companies, one thing to try to get a handle on is what kind of budget they are looking at. If you've got a script that requires lots of locations, stunts, etc. and you've got a producer with a 500K budget, you have to ask yourself if it is feasible to do justice to your script on their budget. You don't get second chances on any given script. Once the thing's made, that's it. And if turns out to be a low-budget piece of crap, it may not help you establish yourself in Hollywood.

Once you sell a script it's no longer yours, and if you are wading in these waters without the benefit of an agent, manager and/or attorney, you really need to think these things through. It sounds like you did that, Justino. And you also apparently consulted bona fide industry professionals instead of relying on the wisdom imparted on internet message boards. Props to you Justino!

Simon

[joecalabre]

Simon,

from what you said,

"First of all the contention that Non-Guild writers should not expect Guild minimum rates is totally untrue - at least if the production company is a Guild signatory. "

A majority of productions made each year are from companies which are not signatory. Even some companies owned in whole or in part by a large studio may not be signatory. Also, a vast majority of scripts sold each year are well under the minimums.

"The contention that agents do not submit to more than one company at a time to create a bidding situation is also untrue."

Submit to read yes, but once an offer is on the table, no other offers can be considered without first rejecting the initial offer. He made it sound like an Ebay auction.

"jumping on a really bad deal just to have a credit - if the thing ends up being a total piece of crap or never seeing the light of day, is bad strategy."

What I said was to negotiate. All deals look bad at first. He made it seem like he heard the offer and walked away without talking to them and trying to work out a better deal.

"You don't get second chances on any given script. Once the thing's made, that's it. And if turns out to be a low-budget piece of crap, it may not help you establish yourself in Hollywood. "

Oh come on, tell that to Peter Jackson (ie. Bad Taste.). Writers never get blamed for a crappy film and very few blow thier career for having a bad credit. I can list at least a dozen writer's who have bad credits who haven't suffered a bit.

Bottom line, he has no agent. He's just taking his first baby steps and he's got to start somewhere. I just felt that he was not looking at all his options and got a negative view towards managers. When he posted, he asked for opinions. I gave him a realistic option to consider. Many writer's swallow thier pride to get credit and a foot in the door. But at the least I wanted him to weigh in all the options.

That's all I got.

Joe

[JustinoIV]

"I just felt that he was not looking at all his options and got a negative view towards managers. When he posted, he asked for opinions. I gave him a realistic option to consider."

According to an entertainment lawyer, a realistic option is that I could not have received any credit at all, if they were trying to use my script for one of their own work for hire projects..............

"Oh come on, tell that to Peter Jackson (ie. Bad Taste.). Writers never get blamed for a crappy film and very few blow thier career for having a bad credit. I can list at least a dozen writer's who have bad credits who haven't suffered a bit."

Scripts can be sold, and the prodco may not have the funds to produce the script. Which means no official writing credit, since a film was never made.


Joe, I'm not trying to insult you. But you're tying up so much energy on being right on matters you are clearly not an expert. I admited to not being an expert on these matters. Which is why I after rejected the deal I spoke to qualified entertainment lawyers, professional screenwriters, and agents. I wanted to know how this deal sounded to bona fide industry people. You know, those people with a long career in the industry. All the working industry people that I spoke to told me it was a bum deal and that I did the right thing in walking away.

I find it rather odd your first instinct was to tell me to go back them to, rather than have me run the situation by an entertainment lawyer.

I did not actually post asking for advice. I posted that crappy deal as a warning to other screenwriters on this forum. Basically, watch out for situations like these and run.

"Many writer's swallow thier pride to get credit and a foot in the door."

And many artists who swallow their pride to get their foot in the door get screwed. Read again what I posted. Under that scenario, if a bunch of lazy writers were trying to get me to sign something allow them to use my work to fill in for one of their work for hire projects, I COULD NOT HAVE RECEIVED ANY CREDIT!

One of my fears when I rejected the project was over the credit issue, as the other two writers contributed nothing to my script. So why on earth should they collectively receive more money and credit than me. (if divided among all three, those two together would have had more money than me ,and those two names would have possibly been credited as the sole screenwriters).

Joe, your advice on certain things, from what I've heard from lawyers and other professionals, is simply POOR. There's no need to continue to push it.

And yes, if I say something wrong, I would issue out a retraction.

[SimonSays]

Joe -

Your quote pulls and responses show an utter lack of reading comprehension.

I did not speak in absolutes, you did. I pointed out that your absolute statments were incorrect and gave specific examples of where your blanket statements were in error.

I never said or implied that all or even most production companies were Guild Signatories. I merely pointed out that those that are will pay guild MBA rates regardless of a writer's membership status. You made it sound like non-guild writers should not expect guild rates under any circumstances - this is misleading. There are quite a large number of guild signatory prod cos. both large and small and they produce quite a large number of films each year.

You also made it sound like any writing credit could help you get into the Guild. Also misleading, only work done for or scripts bought by guild signatories will help you gain guild membership.

You also categorically stated that scripts do not go out to bid. Also untrue. It's rare but there are ocassions where scripts are sent out for bid (as in auction). Again another erroneous statement.

I never said a a writing credit on a crappy movie would blow your career - I said that a bad credit would not necessarily HELP your career and it might be bad strategy - because if you are making almost no money on a script with true commercial potential, and the movie sucks and it's done by a non signatory company - then you could end up with nothing, no real compensation, no credits toward guild membership and a straight to video piece of crap starring Dolph Lungren! This might not be in your best interest.

It might be better to hold off and wait to see if you can get an agent, so you can try to get the film produced by a company that has enough money to pay you fairly AND do justice to your screenplay. If Justino follows this scenario - his agent's commission will be significantly more than the total compensation he was offered in what he correctly labeled a 'crappy deal'.

As I said, it's about strategy and a writer needs to look at all the angles and what will serve him best in the big picture, not just in the heat of the moment. When you're trying to break into the business, a crappy credit is not necessarily better than no credit at all. A killer unproduced spec script can be a far greater asset to a writer looking for an agent than a produced piece of crap. Because an agent might be able to SELL the killer spec.

I've passed on deals in the past with small independents because either the compensation wasn't enough or I felt the budgets were too small. It was a judgement call. I now have A-list producers interested in these same projects. So instead of risking a straight to video with Dolph Lundgren scenario, I've now got a shot at studio theatrical distribution and major stars.

[joecalabre]

I'm not insulted, but you could have made you original post clearer. It seemed to me you didn't negotiate the offer.

That is what I suggested for you to do.

As for whether or not some of my facts are wrong, I stand by them still.

A good book to read is "Breakfast with Sharks." It may shed some light on how this industry works.

Good luck with everything you do. I wish nothing but the best.

[JustinoIV]

"It seemed to me you didn't negotiate the offer."

I did not negotiate the offer. I considered it, and ended up rejecting it outright.

Yet another entertainment lawyer has told me that there are all kinds of problems in the deal. Basically, the deal is so problematic there is nothing to negotiate.

I'm shopping around for a new agent to sell it, but I'm being told by lawyers that I'll need to formally unwind any association with said parties, as in order to prevent them coming out of the woodwork asking for credits.

It's actually why I contacted entertainment lawyers, because I can see these people trying something like that.

[Writing Again]

Okay, I don't understand.

You say you rejected the offer out of hand, which may have been a good thing. You say you signed no papers and made no contract, which if you are unsure of the deal is a very good thing. And they did not rewrite your script.

So what is there to unwind in the relationship? Legally, near as I can tell, no relationship exists. How can they claim anything or ask for anything?

I'm aware that Hollywood in some ways does operate differently than other more normal businesses, but nowhere else does discussing the possible sale of intellectual or tangible property constitute a legal relationship when neither contracts were signed nor compensation changed hands.

[JustinoIV]

The other screenwriters could claim that they contributed to my script. They did not, and of course if the case went to court they would lose. But that does not mean that they could not try to sue me. (hey, there have been all sorts of attempts to sue people for this or that) Sometimes one can find a whack of a lawyer to take one's case.

So basically I have all my drafts, I've spoken to lawyers, so I'm set.

[Gillyflower Cooms]

Joe,

Ignore Justino. The guy's a @#%$ tool. The guy lies more than a cheating husband. In some old posts he bragged about being a paid writer and now he claims to be a complete novice. He constantly climbs onto these boards. spells out doom and changes his story when its convenient.

Joe didn't say to sign the contract, he said to negotiate. You can always walk away from the deal but at least hear what they have to say. It's a good experience anyway.

Justino should have done his resarch before getting involved with these people.

[JustinoIV]

Gill, if you have a problem with me I suggest you take it off this board. No one has time for petty debates. And I will warn you, people have been banned off this board in the past couple of months.

You might be one of them next.

[Gillyflower Cooms]

You're a tuff talker, dood. I don't wanna be deprived of your sage words so I'll toe the line.

[JustinoIV]

"Joe didn't say to sign the contract, he said to negotiate. You can always walk away from the deal but at least hear what they have to say. It's a good experience anyway."

You are correct, here Gilly. You and Joe, to a degree. I actually did call the guy back to explain in detail why I thought there was a no go on that particular deal. He says he has other interested parties, who would be interested in reading said script and who would offer better compensation. (and the names of those others would not be attached to the sale).

So we'll see.

As for my claim to be a paid writer, I had one gig in which a indie director paid be to write some scenes. That's who I actually learned screenwriting from.

So yes, I'd still rate myself as a NOVICE.

[canelatea]

This whole thing is bizarre from the very beginning:

"A producer claimed that some people were interested in a horror script and he's (sic) like to pass it on."

Okay. Who? Someone this producer has a deal with? Btw, who is the producer?

"They'd want to attach themselves."

Before even seeing the script? And couldn't you determine beforehand they were nobody worth attaching? Who attaches other screenwriters to a script?

"So anyway, I give him permission to submit to those people."

WHY?

Well. Lesson learned, hopefully. Next time more questions and checking upfront.

Good luck.