script consultants???

[kitt]

I read a bunch of reviews on the CS web site on script consultants, the good, the bad, and the ugly. My question is has anyone used one of these services? Is it worth it? I'm talking about one of the good ones. Is it worth $500-$1000 to get the professional opinion. I was thinking it would be because as a new writer I want my script to be as well put together as possible. Getting a professional to critique your work who knows the biz, and knows exactly what "they" want to see has to be valuable. Just looking for some other opinions.

[English Dave]

I read a bunch of reviews on the CS web site on script consultants, the good, the bad, and the ugly. My question is has anyone used one of these services? Is it worth it? I'm talking about one of the good ones. Is it worth $500-$1000 to get the professional opinion. .

No.

As a newbie you can get a good professional opinion for less than $100. And as a newbie you shouldn't even contemplate paying more than that in the first instance.

There are good pro readers who frequent this and other boards. I'm not going to pimp them out but check out the reader threads on various boards and make your own mind up.

[dpaterso]

Yes professional analysis and feedback can be extremely useful, but no it doesn't have to cost the earth.

I searched this forum for "script consultants" and found this slightly older thread, Best & most legitimate professional script consultants? (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4606) which may point you in several right directions.

You can also receive free feedback from AW members by posting pages in the Screenwriting forum in Share Your Work, see the Screenwriting Critique Board moved to SYW (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45722) thread. Why not check out a few of the threads and judge whether this would be of value to you before you spend bucks.

-Derek

[RainbowDragon]

Or hop over to the writing partner/mentor area and put out an ad for a critique exchange.

If you wanted to, you could spend all your money on your spec script and it might still never be produced, so learn the craft and see if you can get the money flowing in the right direction--to you. . .!

[English Dave]

If you wanted to, you could spend all your money on your spec script and it might still never be produced, so learn the craft and see if you can get the money flowing in the right direction--to you. . .!

Sound advice.

[kitt]

Thanks everyone. My script is sort of like my child,(though I'd burn it to keep my actual child warm..lol) I want to do everything I can to give it the best chance for success in the world.

[Goodwriterguy]

Or hop over to the writing partner/mentor area and put out an ad for a critique exchange.

If you wanted to, you could spend all your money on your spec script and it might still never be produced, so learn the craft and see if you can get the money flowing in the right direction--to you. . .!
But getting critiqued by a competent consultant can be part of "learning the craft" and can indeed accelerate the learning process, often greatly so.

We don't seem to mind spending $1,500 or whatever for our computer to write with or $250 for a printer to print our work, but we hedge when it comes to getting competent feedback. Makes no sense to me.

Some folks pay big bucks to attend film school and study screenwriting in a writing program. Four or five years of study and practice. I don't believe it's a craft that can be learned and developed in quick time or even anything less than four or five years if one is starting from scratch ... and assuming some command of the language going in..

We had a thread not long ago in which a writer from the Midwest told the tale of having sold a piece and then worked with its director to buff out his script. All he had ever done was read "how to" books. He was mind boggled at the help he got and what he hadn't learned and how much he learned in a few sessions with that director (in the end, this adventure didn't turn out so hot, but that's not the point here. The point is this guy was book learned and didn't know Jack, or hardly Jack. The sessions he had with his director blew his mind. His first exposure to competence.

For a beginner, any exposure to a competent analyst is good news, whether this occurs at a workshop, a seminar, or because they hire them to critique their script hardly matters ... what matters is they're hearing someone who knows the craft inside and out and who has the ability to convey that intelligently so that the writer actually learns a great deal from it. Just attending a seminar where one might hear a guy like Aaron Sorkin talk about screenwriting for an hour and then take questions can be an explosive learning situation, for any of us but in particular for a beginner.

Now think about what you might get for $100. In my book that's about three hours of work ... for a competent writer/analyst. Or it ought to be in any case. Given what other professionals charge, lawyers for exmple, it really oughta be no more than an hour's worth of work. You can't even read a script in an hour.

Bob McKee charges $5,000 for a critique. And gets it. Richard Walter, who was head honcho at UCLA Film School for years, gets the same. Syd Field is right in there somewhere. Successful screenwriters pay this tariff because they know their script is gonna be worth six figures or could well be worth that so it's a wise investment. And McKee has a Phd in Film Studies and has consulted with just about everyone in town.

There are a bunch of consultants out there who will give you a critique for between $60 and $200. You'll get a few paragraphs, a page or two of analysis, a half day's worth of work and sometimes the words are cut and paste from another critique they've done.

A writer looking for a consultant must get all prospects to give them a list of their previous clients and permission to contact them directly. Ask writers who have used a guy's services and hear what they think, and don't just ask one, ask as many as you can, three or four anyway. What did this guy do for you? Was it helpful? Is he a jerk, a nice fellow? What?

This will separate the wheat from the chaff.

Ask a prospective consultant what it is they are going to do for you and what form it will take. Judge how deep their analysis will go and determine what angles it will consider. Maybe gear your needs to the strong suit of some prospective consultant. Guy says he's good with dialogue, his clients affirm that indeed they are, you need help with dialogue, boom! He's your guy. Maybe ask them to see a copy of some earlier evaluation and critique they did for someone else. Judge what you might expect to get from them thereby.

I been doing this consulting thing for more than five years, more like seven or eight years now (time flies) and I've come to know many writers who do this kind of thing. The ones I like are the one who do it like I do it, because they enjoy doing it and see that it helps them keep their own chops up and current. It's a never ending gala of solving problems in scripts, and teaching the craft, which sort of just goes with the territory, assuming one cares in the least.

There are thieves and Charlatans out there, make no mistake, I've seen them go by too. But there are also many very dedicated and highly skilled guys around who know how to break a script down and put it to the test.

A good friend of mine who has credits on about 50 movies and a hundred television shows (director, AD, production manager, producer, exec producer, even actor) said to me one time, "It takes two weeks to absorb a feature." And by that he meant a feature spec.

This guy was one of those "Mr. Hollywood" kinda guys, his father had been a very well known cinematographer in the 50's and 60's and he himself started at Columbia at age 17, the day he graduated from Hollywood High.

You don't think he knew what he was talking about?

I do.

Regardless of what fee you might pay, you should get at least 5,000 words of analysis in return and they should cover all the well known angles of screenwriting we talk about all the time, and more. They should be well organized, trightly written, correlated to script parts or scenes or matters in the overall (adherence to the conventions of genre for example).

Some writers make for good consultants, others are lousy at it.

Read trades are okay ... as far as they go, they just usually don't go very far or very deep. Just because a guy can write doesn't necessarily mean he can analyze and critique, especially at a high level.

I've done critiques gratis for starving artists. I done them for free and had people send me gifts like pounds of coffee or bottles or wine. One guy in Scotland sent me a bottle of Glen Moray Single Speyside Scotch Whiskey, had to be a $150 bottle I reckon. I do it for the reasons cited above not for the dough, which is peanuts in any case. I've been paid as high as $1,500.

Imagine a young race car driver been doing the dirt tracks around the Midwest for two or three or four years he gets a chance to go to Indy and hang out in Paul Tracey's garage for a day ... or go to Daytona in February and spend a day in Jeff Gordon's garage or Earnhart Jr. Imagine what he'd learn doing that and how inspired he'd be from having that experience.

It's the same with a writer. Any exposure to competence is worth its weight in gold.

And, if we're to expect to get paid the going rate for our screenplay, we ought not be too hesitant about plunking down some dollars here and there to help assure that we will in fact be able to do that, and make it stick.

If you need a new cartridge for your laser printer, you don't hesitate buying one, because you know tomorrrow the phone might ring and someone will want a copy of your script. If your PC or Mac blows up and you can't write, you get it fixed or buy a new one. You don't even think twice about it. Some guys spend $200-300 a year entering contests.

A beginning writer should, in my estimation, sink their soul into their script and work themselves to the bone to make it all it can be and only when they think it is done ... go looking for a critique. Give it all you've got and then find out what you're missing, if indeed you are missing anything (and indeed you probably are ... if experience tells us anything).

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Cheers!:D

GWG ...

[xhouseboy]

And now for the other side of the coin:


Is it worthwhile to read screenwriting books and take courses on writing? Couldn't you just as easily learn the craft by reading screenplays and watching movies?
--Kevin
Have you taken Robert McKee's screenwriting class? And if so, what did you learn from it?
--Bill

To read his brochure, you'd think that everyone in Hollywood has taken McKee's course, but the truth is, I don't know anyone who has. Whenever I hear his name brought up, it makes these tiny hairs rise on the back of my neck, because it usually means the speaker is going to cite some piece of screenwriting gospel, or use a clever word like "counter-theme."

I've never met McKee and have nothing against him, but to read his bio (http://www.mckeestory.com (http://www.mckeestory.com/)) it's clear that he's not a very successful screenwriter and never really was. That's not to say he can't be a great teacher, just as many great film critics are not filmmakers, nor do I think that there's anything wrong with a screenwriting class per se, especially if it helps you get off your *** and write. But I would rather have dental surgery than go through a structural analysis of Chinatown.

The downfall of these classes and books (Syd Field's is the best known), is that the guru comes up with a theory about why scripts are good or bad, then manipulates the examples to prove his or her point. I remember one professor in graduate school who when confronted with counter-examples, would label some of the greatest movies ever made "failed films," simply because they didn't fit her framework.

Overall, it's worth reading a few books and taking a few classes to get a handle on how Hollywood talks about scripts and movies. Internalize what makes sense to you and chuck the rest. Kevin's question goes right to the point: You'll learn the most by reading a lot of screenplays, good and bad, and learning how they work.

The truth is, there's no magic formula for writing a great script. (Or for that matter, a commercial one.) Anyone who tries to convince you that theirs is the One True Way is deluding themselves and you.

[Joe Unidos]

Imagine a young race car driver been doing the dirt tracks around the Midwest for two or three or four years he gets a chance to go to Indy and hang out in Paul Tracey's garage for a day ... or go to Daytona in February and spend a day in Jeff Gordon's garage or Earnhart Jr. Imagine what he'd learn doing that and how inspired he'd be from having that experience.

It's the same with a writer. Any exposure to competence is worth its weight in gold.

I agree completely.



And if Paul Haggis, Pedro Almodóvar, Akiva Goldsman, Stephen Gaghan, or Allan Ball is offering a script consulting service then by all means a new writer should take them up on the offer.

That's very, very different from finding a fellow "young race car driver" who's also "doing the dirt tracks around the Midwest" and paying him to tell you what he thinks NASCAR would be like --which is what most script consultants are doing.

[icerose]

That's very, very different from finding a fellow "young race car driver" who's also "doing the dirt tracks around the Midwest" and paying him to tell you what he thinks NASCAR would be like --which is what most script consultants are doing.


Exactly. Also most critiques are best when you've actually developed your craft. If you can't spell worth anything, have poor grammar, zero formatting, then the critique can't even get to the story which is where it's served best.

Read tons of scripts, get a feel for them, write a lot of scripts get your own groove going, get free feedback here, revise and edit, read more scripts, write more scripts, start submitting, see if you have any requests, what leads from there, then get a critique. Otherwise you are just burning money because you aren't even close to being ready for that critique.

I strongly believe they are best served when the script writer is close, but again this is an opinion from a writer who has just recieved free critiques and has submitted on her own and written a dozen herself so take it for what it's worth.

[Goodwriterguy]

I agree completely.

And if Paul Haggis, Pedro Almodóvar, Akiva Goldsman, Stephen Gaghan, or Allan Ball is offering a script consulting service then by all means a new writer should take them up on the offer.

That's very, very different from finding a fellow "young race car driver" who's also "doing the dirt tracks around the Midwest" and paying him to tell you what he thinks NASCAR would be like --which is what most script consultants are doing.
You misread my passage, dude. I didn't suggest that anyone pay a "young race car driver" to find out what "he thinks NASCAR would be like," quite the contrary. But rather than explain it I'll leave it to you to go back and read what I did say, then maybe you'll get it.

Sheesh!

[Goodwriterguy]

Exactly. Also most critiques are best when you've actually developed your craft. If you can't spell worth anything, have poor grammar, zero formatting, then the critique can't even get to the story which is where it's served best.

Read tons of scripts, get a feel for them, write a lot of scripts get your own groove going, get free feedback here, revise and edit, read more scripts, write more scripts, start submitting, see if you have any requests, what leads from there, then get a critique. Otherwise you are just burning money because you aren't even close to being ready for that critique.

I strongly believe they are best served when the script writer is close, but again this is an opinion from a writer who has just recieved free critiques and has submitted on her own and written a dozen herself so take it for what it's worth.
Yep, I agree, wholeheartedly. Here's what I said:


A beginning writer should, in my estimation, sink their soul into their script and work themselves to the bone to make it all it can be and only when they think it is done ... go looking for a critique. Give it all you've got and then find out what you're missing, if indeed you are missing anything (and indeed you probably are ... if experience tells us anything).

Same thing. Exactly the same thing.

No consultant wants to be faced with work that suffer's a writers ill command of the language or lack of care about spelling and grammar or composition and who has yet to develop some kind of a screenwriting voice.

[Joe Unidos]

You misread my passage, dude. I didn't suggest that anyone pay a "young race car driver" to find out what "he thinks NASCAR would be like," quite the contrary. But rather than explain it I'll leave it to you to go back and read what I did say, then maybe you'll get it.

Sheesh!

Perhaps it's what you didn't say that is most illuminating. You created a race car analogy, speculating about how much a fledgling race car driver could learn from someone who has made their way to the absolute top of the race car game, yet very deliberately extended no "measure of success" test when discussing what a fledgling screenwriter should look for in someone they are paying to tell them what it takes to be a professional screenwriter.

To flip it back to your analogy, would you agree with me that a race car driver ought not pay for advice about how to be a NASCAR driver from someone who, like them, is not a professional NASCAR race car driver?

[dpaterso]

I don't mean to butt in or anything, but the car racing analogy could probably be broadened rather than used as a base for argument. There are many races, and many driver skill levels. And sometimes it helps to know how to change the oil and tighten the wheel bolts, too.

-Derek

[Goodwriterguy]

And now for the other side of the coin
Is it worthwhile to read screenwriting books and take courses on writing? Couldn't you just as easily learn the craft by reading screenplays and watching movies?
--Kevin
Have you taken Robert McKee's screenwriting class? And if so, what did you learn from it?
--Bill

To read his brochure, you'd think that everyone in Hollywood has taken McKee's course, but the truth is, I don't know anyone who has. Whenever I hear his name brought up, it makes these tiny hairs rise on the back of my neck, because it usually means the speaker is going to cite some piece of screenwriting gospel, or use a clever word like "counter-theme."

I've never met McKee and have nothing against him, but to read his bio (http://www.mckeestory.com (http://www.mckeestory.com/)) it's clear that he's not a very successful screenwriter and never really was. That's not to say he can't be a great teacher, just as many great film critics are not filmmakers, nor do I think that there's anything wrong with a screenwriting class per se, especially if it helps you get off your *** and write. But I would rather have dental surgery than go through a structural analysis of Chinatown.

The downfall of these classes and books (Syd Field's is the best known), is that the guru comes up with a theory about why scripts are good or bad, then manipulates the examples to prove his or her point. I remember one professor in graduate school who when confronted with counter-examples, would label some of the greatest movies ever made "failed films," simply because they didn't fit her framework.

Overall, it's worth reading a few books and taking a few classes to get a handle on how Hollywood talks about scripts and movies. Internalize what makes sense to you and chuck the rest. Kevin's question goes right to the point: You'll learn the most by reading a lot of screenplays, good and bad, and learning how they work.

The truth is, there's no magic formula for writing a great script. (Or for that matter, a commercial one.) Anyone who tries to convince you that theirs is the One True Way is deluding themselves and you.
I've yet to hear a teacher, a writer, a consultant or anyone involved with screenwriting advocate "one true way" to write a screenplay, and yes, I have taken McKee's seminar.

There is no "one true way" but there is a form and that form has a lexicon and principles and conventions and protocols and its own ways and means and its art has genre and they have their conventions. The subtitle of McKee's book "Story" is "substance, structure, style, and the principles of screenwriting." I don't either see or hear a "one true way" in that, nor in the book itself.

Bob McKee is not a screenwriter, never intended to be a screenwriter, and his merits as a teacher or a consultant do not rest on this. They rest, rather, on his Phd in Film Studies and his deep understading of cinema and cinematic art. He gets $5,000 a pop for a critique. Quincy Jones said, "Robert McKee gave me a deeper understanding of the story process, of the script, of charactrization and the psychology of the screen. Nobody in this business can afford to miss this man's mind. It's a must for directors, writers, and producers."

Kevin's advice is too much like attending your first day in some English class or whatever and the teacher says, "You have the textbook, read it. In sixteen weeks we'll meet again so you can take the final exam for the course."

I always advise new or beginning writers to read and study screenplays, but without some guidance what's a guy really gonna get from that; can he actually figure out the "whys" and "hows" on his own? Can he perceive principles? Can he see conventions? Can he grasp a sense of theatricality? Can he apprehend what dramatic structure is? What does "study" mean? It's like telling a musical composition student to "listen to Bach, Beethoven, and Brahms" and "you'll learn all you need to know about composing and arranging music."

Field's books may be the "most popular" but that doesn't mean they are the best, far from it. There are any number of books out there that far surpass his in terms of teaching what screenwriting is all about. And in fact, one can't get it all from any single book, one has to go through at least a dozen. And that's because there's so much about it, so much to discuss, to say, to illlustrate, that nobiody has managed to get it all in one book. There's a body of knowledge out there, and that's what we all have to tune into and absorb.

What does "learning how they work" mean?

Some folks may be able to study screenplays and "learn how they work" but generally it isn't enough, simply because "how they work" isn't necessarily up front on their pages and engages deeper insights and knowledge than is readily apparent. The topic is too diffuse.

Do we think that writing programs at film schools are a joke? A scam? Phony undertakings? A waste of time? Major universities offer five year programs in screenwriting, leading to an MFA. What are students doing for those five years? Hanging out at the student union? Beatin' their puds down at the beach? What?

I think they're studying that body of knowledge to which I referred, they're studying the history of film for example, so what whatever they may write can be informed by that knowledge. And, they are writing, every day, day in, day out. One guy I know, Alex Cox, did this at UCLA and sold his script "Repo Man" within weeks of graduating with an MFA in screenwriting. You gonna tell him he wasted his time?

And then of course there's the writing, practice makes perfect, especially when you have some idea about what you're doing, what you are trying to achieve, and possess some ideation of your goal.

Equate the "body of knowledge" with 640 acres of land. A beginner can only see about a quarter of an acre of that land, the rest of it is utterly invisible to him or her. Five years hence, if they've done the work, wrote the scripts, read the books, attended the workshops and seminars, and paid attention, they'll see all 640 of those acres, they will have been revealed to them in the course of their efforts. It doesn't come in a package all neatly wrapped for the opening and claiming.

It has to be won.

Cheers! :)

[Goodwriterguy]

Perhaps it's what you didn't say that is most illuminating. You created a race car analogy, speculating about how much a fledgling race car driver could learn from someone who has made their way to the absolute top of the race car game, yet very deliberately extended no "measure of success" test when discussing what a fledgling screenwriter should look for in someone they are paying to tell them what it takes to be a professional screenwriter.

To flip it back to your analogy, would you agree with me that a race car driver ought not pay for advice about how to be a NASCAR driver from someone who, like them, is not a professional NASCAR race car driver?

You're all hungup on the idea that if a guy hasn't sold a script he has nothing to offer his fellow writers.

In my experience that's a flawed view.

Hey, it happens here all the time. Nobody's paying but that's just because people are willing to share what they know gratis. Who's to say any one of them couldn't put a small price on what they know, just to cover expenses you see.

The "if you haven't sold a script you can't be a consultant" mentality is, in my view and in my experience, short sighted and ignores too much of the reality. It is, shall we say, too simple.

[Joe Unidos]

I don't mean to butt in or anything, but the car racing analogy could probably be broadened rather than used as a base for argument. There are many races, and many driver skill levels. And sometimes it helps to know how to change the oil and tighten the wheel bolts, too.

-Derek

I agree.

I just take issue with the constant hard-sell scare-tactic directed at newbies to try to convince them that a new writer is doing himself a disservice by not hiring a script consultant --especially because it always carries a wholly erroneous subtext that this is business-as-usual for working writers. I take issue with the distortion that big ticket script doctors are hired by established writers, as opposed to studios. I take issue with the grossly inaccurate analogies that a fledgling screenwriter attending an Aaron Sorkin lecture (or a young race car driver spending time with a NASCAR legend) has any correlation to one unsold screenwriter paying another unsold screenwriter for notes.

If you want peer review, there's plenty of ways to get it for free. If you want to see what a coverage writer would write if your material landed on their desk, there's plenty of very inexpensive ways to get that. If you want to learn from someone who's work you are familiar with and respect, that's tough to get, but the Guild does have some mentoring programs, I believe.

But to pay for another set of eyes to go over your story --a set of eyes who you have no concrete reason to believe has any more insight than your own set? I don't see the point. But it's certainly up to the individual. I just don't want newbies to think it's necessary, or just the cost of doing business like buying paper, because that's just bvllshit.

[endless rewrite]

Very long posts, but I still do not understand why on earth anyone would pay a script consultant/writer whose scripts remain unsold and untested.

I got some fantastic script notes from a writer on here whose TV drama was one of the best prime time TV shows I saw last year. It didn't cost me a penny and what I was looking for and got, was the insight of somebody with a proven track record. I made the changes suggested including one big change that really heightened the drama/tension of the script and improved it no end. There are some remarkably talented and generous people on here and though they may not have screenwriting 'qualifications' coming out of their ears they more than make up for it with, you know, stuff I can watch and/or feedback that is offered without a word count,a price list or a checklist of people I need to contact so I know I can trust their judgement.

[xhouseboy]

Kevin's advice is too much like attending your first day in some English class or whatever and the teacher says, "You have the textbook, read it. In sixteen weeks we'll meet again so you can take the final exam for the course."
:)

What exactly do you mean by 'Kevin's advice'?

Kevin didn't offer any advice. Kevin was the aspiring screenwriter posing a simple question at the beginning of the quote.

The actual 'advice' you seem to be disagreeing with is from the lips of a top hollywood screenwriter - A list. I came across his take on script consultants on 'ask the screenwriter'. He's merely responding to Kevin's question, and I'm in agreement with him on this issue.

[JohnDoe79]

You're all hungup on the idea that if a guy hasn't sold a script he has nothing to offer his fellow writers.

In my experience that's a flawed view.

Hey, it happens here all the time. Nobody's paying but that's just because people are willing to share what they know gratis. Who's to say any one of them couldn't put a small price on what they know, just to cover expenses you see.

The "if you haven't sold a script you can't be a consultant" mentality is, in my view and in my experience, short sighted and ignores too much of the reality. It is, shall we say, too simple.

Well, if someone has the ability to make a script sale and launch a solid career as an A list screenwriter, wouldn't they do so?

Most script consultants are people who FAIL to launch meaningful Hollywood careers. So all they can do is HUSTLE newbie writers out of their money.

Don't get me wrong, if someone wants to pay someone in the beginning $100 or less to evaluate their screenplay, fine. But paying anything more to someone who has absolutely no credentials is a waste of money. If you must put down thousands of dollars, go take classes at places where people actually have the degrees and/or other qualifications to teach.

[creativexec]

Bob McKee is not a screenwriter, never intended to be a screenwriter, and his merits as a teacher or a consultant do not rest on this.

Actually, Bob is a screenwriter. His scripts constantly circulate the town.


:)

[Goodwriterguy]

Actually, Bob is a screenwriter. His scripts constantly circulate the town.


:)
So his stuff is in that loop of scripts that circulate around town from hand to hand, material "you probably wanna read" but will "probably never be produced" for one reason or another, eh? Well, sure, why not, have some fun, maybe knock a few socks off.

My point was that he doesn't promote himself as a screenwriter but rather as a teacher and promoter of the craft. He told me he didn't think he could ever compete with Robert Towne on the page and wasn't about to try. Maybe he changed his mind? I dunno.

[endless rewrite]

so his stuff is in that loop of scripts that circulate around town from hand to hand, material "you probably wanna read" but will "probably never be produced" for one reason or another, eh? Well, sure, why not, have some fun, maybe knock a few socks off.


Make sure you don't run out of stones in that glass house of yours.

[dpaterso]

Miaow. :)

-Derek

[RainbowDragon]

Geez - Kitt, you also should know that if you get your script into the hands of a prodco and/or talent, you may be able to wrangle some coverage from them for free as well. As a new writer you need to master format and story, then deal with the marketing aspect. No one else can write the script(s) you will write, and you need to take all feedback, coverage or otherwise, with a grain of salt. No one really knows what will sell either, until it's out there and does well or not-so-well.

No one else has the same exact vision for your script that you do, and that probably includes any producers who may think about making it (hence the commonality of rewrites, which is another subject altogether). I've decided the cost of paying for coverage exceeds the benefit I can reasonably expect. But everyone can decide for him/herself.

[creativexec]

My point was that he doesn't promote himself as a screenwriter but rather as a teacher and promoter of the craft. He told me he didn't think he could ever compete with Robert Towne on the page and wasn't about to try. Maybe he changed his mind? I dunno.

I'm not passing any judgement on McKee.

I'm simply replying to a statement that said McKee is not a screenwriter - which is wholly untrue.

He has been credited with a couple of produced projects and has been writing for years. I've read a few of his scripts. Because he isn't competing with Towne doesn't mean he isn't writing.

He does promote himself as a screenwriter but - perhaps - not to his students. He promotes himself as a screenwriter to producers and executives. It's safe to assume he wears several hats.

:)

[English Dave]

I'm not passing any judgement on McKee.

I'm simply replying to a statement that said McKee is not a screenwriter - which is wholly untrue.

He has been credited with a couple of produced projects and has been writing for years. I've read a few of his scripts. Because he isn't competing with Towne doesn't mean he isn't writing.

He does promote himself as a screenwriter but - perhaps - not to his students. He promotes himself as a screenwriter to producers and executives. It's safe to assume he wears several hats.

:)

Sign me up for Robert Towne's next serminar. 'Personal Best' was terrific.

Well ....no it wasn't. But ya know what. I'd rather spend 5000 bucks partying with Robert Towne than Robert McKee. Because I'd learn a whole lot more.

Because I'm a writer. Does that sound arrogant? Fvck you!



Some irony in there for the hard of intellect.

[Goodwriterguy]

I'm not passing any judgement on McKee.

I'm simply replying to a statement that said McKee is not a screenwriter - which is wholly untrue.

He has been credited with a couple of produced projects and has been writing for years. I've read a few of his scripts. Because he isn't competing with Towne doesn't mean he isn't writing.

He does promote himself as a screenwriter but - perhaps - not to his students. He promotes himself as a screenwriter to producers and executives. It's safe to assume he wears several hats.

:)
Fair enough.

His seminar has a lot more to do with the psychology of cinema than it does with whether a CUT TO: is an appropriate device at this point or another; a lot more to do with subext than the notion of writing concise action paragraphs and a lot more to do with the conventions of genre than whether dialogue should be indented this much or that and a whole lot more to do with the nature of conflict than whether voice overs are acceptable or not.

Most venues in which screenwriting is discussed, such as this one for example, focus a great deal more on format than on form; a great deal more on page counts than on level of verisimilitude. I take this to indicate that the general level of knowledge in these venues hasn't yet grown wide enough yet to embrace these other aspects of the craft. It's perfectly okay as far as it goes, but soon as someone starts thinking it goes far enough ... whoa! ;)

We all have to start somewhere. No blame.

[English Dave]

Fair enough.

His seminar has a lot more to do with the psychology of cinema than it does with whether a CUT TO: is an appropriate device at this point or another; a lot more to do with subext than the notion of writing concise action paragraphs and a lot more to do with the conventions of genre than whether dialogue should be indented this much or that and a whole lot more to do with the nature of conflict than whether voice overs are acceptable or not.

Most venues in which screenwriting is discussed, such as this one for example, focus a great deal more on format than on form; a great deal more on page counts than on level of verisimilitude. I take this to indicate that the general level of knowledge in these venues hasn't yet grown wide enough yet to embrace these other aspects of the craft. It's perfectly okay as far as it goes, but soon as someone starts thinking it goes far enough ... whoa! ;)

We all have to start somewhere. No blame.

Well..... there's no charge here. Yes there are questions about format rather than form, and from what I've seen those are answered just as well, and without the snobbery and superciliousness of some, as questions about the actual art of screenwriting.

[Goodwriterguy]

Well..... there's no charge here. Yes there are questions about format rather than form, and from what I've seen those are answered just as well, and without the snobbery and superciliousness of some, as questions about the actual art of screenwriting.
Digs aside, if some beginner came to you, Dave, and asked for a little help, say like you met at the local Starbucks, and after ten minutes you found yourself facing a series of questions that you knew were going to take three hours of your time to provide good comprehensive answers to today and another three hours tomorrow ... what would you do?

[xhouseboy]

Digs aside, if some beginner came to you, Dave, and asked for a little help, say like you met at the local Starbucks, and after ten minutes you found yourself facing a series of questions that you knew were going to take three hours of your time to provide good comprehensive answers to today and another three hours tomorrow ... what would you do?

I obviously can't speak for Dave, but personally I find that a highly unlikely scenario. Unless, of course, one is touting oneself as a provider of answers, and perhaps haunts their local Starbucks wearing a 'script consultant' badge.

[dpaterso]

I've been unmasked as a fake screenwriter in many coffee shops and thrown out on my ear. But it's worth the risk. The chicks, man, the chicks.

-Derek

[Goodwriterguy]

I obviously can't speak for Dave, but personally I find that a highly unlikely scenario. Unless, of course, one is touting oneself as a provider of answers, and perhaps haunts their local Starbucks wearing a 'script consultant' badge.
It was a hypothetical to be sure, but there is a point.

I've already told this story once here but it seems it's time I told it again.

Eight years ago I subscribed to an e:mail listserve that was dedicated to screenwriting, probably the first of its kind. It was run out of the film school at the University of Texas, where the guy who ran it was a teacher, and a good man I might add. That list had 50 or 60 regular contributors. All the usual suspects in terms of questions were asked and answered. It was a good community of writers, with the whole spectrum present, newbie to professional, not so unlike what we have here.

After a couple of years the film school decided they couldn't afford to run the list anymore and a woman named Margo Prescott, who had been aboard since day one just about, launched a Yahoo Group list and most everyone came over from SCRNWRIT and signed on.

Naturally enough, members were trading reads and there was a lot of critiqueing going on. Margo ran a script consulting deal on the side, which she had run long before she ever started her listserve (and still does to my knowledge) and some members, me included, took advantage of her services. But soon enough the word spread around that I was pretty good at critiqueing and requests began coming my way.

In the course of the next two years or so I evaluated or critiqued a hundred scripts or so, a lot of them, and everyone was pleased with what I did for them. Then one guy who was really pleased with the work I did evaluating his script said to me, "You should be charging for this, it's definitely worth something," and he sent me a hundred bucks. That guy has since gone onto make a few sales and is happily writing away as we speak.

So I took his advice and began to charge, some minimal amount. I think I started asking $100. Now, mind you, when I evaluate a script it takes me a week, or somewhere between 30 and 40 hours, and the typical evaluation or critique I do runs up to five or six-thousand words and some have run much higher than that. Any script I critique gets two reads, top to bottom.

Many writers on Margo's list pleaded poverty and I did their scripts gratis, or they sent me gifts, a coupla pounds of good coffee, a bottle of wine, and one guy in Scotland sent me a nice bottle of fine Scotch whiskey ... and mind you these gifts came only after they had received their critique from me, not before. I recently did a critique for one of our members here and though they did not plead poverty I didn't charge them for it because I knew he wasn't up in the buckeroos. He was most pleased with what he got from me.

I know that my BG as a teacher has aided me in doing critiques, not specifically in terms of the subject, but in terms of attitude and how one approaches things and how one relates to someone who is struggling to learn and wants to learn. I taught at a community college for sixteen years and learned a lot about how to review and analyze someone's work, critique it for them, and not beat them up over it in the process and rather, to attempt at any rate to inspire them, to urge them on to higher heights and to give them confidence.

And after having written eleven screenplays and studied this craft for a number of years my knowledge of it and how it works and why it works the way it works ... isn't at some low grade level. Nor I would add is it at the highest level either. It is comprehensive. And I've been around and worked in the film business enough to know how things work in that world, with a BG in a movie industry family.

Consulting sort of fell into my lap. I didn't go searching for it nor have I promoted myself in that vein. I never wore the badge you referred to. But the word has a way of getting around and requests come to me almost every week. I could give you a list of clients I have done work for and you could talk to them and find out what they think, and I'd be surprised if you heard a single negative.

It is also true that I have enjoyed doing this work. It helps me keep my own chops up and is inspiring to my own efforts in many ways. For awhile in 03 I actually had a website up, but the workload zoomed and pretty soon my own writing was suffering from lack of time so I took the thing off the air. I'm not in this to take too much away from my own efforts.

Some work comes to me now from other consultants I have gotten to know, "overflow" they call it, and I'm happy to oblige when I can and usually do. I send them overflow work too. The least of them charge $500 and up.

It's something that has occurred organically and naturally without any promotional razz-a-ma-tazz or jive talk or desire to make money. It all seems pretty normal to me, work-a-day normal, in the flow. And hence, some of the reactions here are puzzling to me, the accusations, the allegations, the snide remarks, none of it has any real place in this. I'm just another guy not so unlike the rest of the folks here, it just happens that something I was not looking for fell into my lap, and it didn't fall into yours, but it could have, just as easily as not.

And that's why I asked Dave the question I asked, what would he do? Should I have not critiqued those hundred scripts back in the days of Margo's listserve? Should I have not critiqued for gratis the writer's script who plead poverty? Should I have not accepted the gifts? Should I not have earned the dollar or two an hour I've earned doing this for the past several years?

You tell me.

You know, there are several communities of screenwriters out there, Absolute-Write isn't the only one. I'm subbed to three screenwriting listserves, I hang out over at Site link removed per request of other site's Webmaster and at Larry Brody's site and some others. I like to move around and swim in the entire pool, not just a small part of it. Each of these places has something to offer and they all have much in common. I enjoy every one, but I must say the reaction here to the fact that I do some script consulting has been surprisngly negative, even mean spirited in some instances. And that's a puzzle to me. I don't get this anywhere else.

So I say relax and enjoy, and learn what ya can and keep going, and don't be so concerned about what some guy might be doing with his time and energies. It can't really matter much one way or another, can it? It's only really impotant to those for whom I may do work, and I expect they can judge for themselves, as they always have and as they always will.

This is a huge sidetrack to the real business at hand, to which I think we should return.

Keep the shiny side up! ;)

[English Dave]

Never argue with anyone who buys ink by the gallon. :)

[Goodwriterguy]

Never argue with anyone who buys ink by the gallon. :)
Most especially when you don't have a case, of course. :D

[English Dave]

Well okay, wading through all the black which is mainly subtextual hype and irrelevant to me, you seem to be asking for an answer to What would I do?

First off I wouldn't take three hours. If someone claiming to be a half decent writer took more than an hour of my time and still didn't get it then they are wasting their time not mine. I wouldn't waste three hours in the first place unless they were hot or good company.

Secondly, if people have a good enough idea they can get free feedback from prodco's. Not always great feedback ink wise, but usually a great indicator as to whether you actually have a movie idea or not.

Would you charge someone whatever it is you charge with your 11 written [not sold] screenplays experience and send them a couple of lines saying that basically 'This is not and never will be a movie'? When that is all it truly deserves? I don't think most self-styled 'script consultants' would.

I worked for majors as a reader. You can tell in half an hour if something has any hope or not. It doesn't take a week to formulate a reply as to why it doesn't work.

I still read scripts for mates. Not many. But I don't charge. I consider myself a writer. I don't make bucks off other writers.

You may have writen 11 scripts. I've probably written 50 plus including TV. Produced, not just written. I still wouldn't hold myself out to be expert enough to charge fellow writers for advice.

[dpaterso]

This could see-saw back and forth forever.

Below the produced screenwriter is a whole layer cake of writers with various levels of skill and experience that may be of value to others.

Fact is, there's a sea of aspiring screenwriters out there who want to improve but are unlikely to ever get anywhere near a prodco for feedback, free or otherwise, without being pointed in the right direction, i.e. offered a helping hand.

Connections between writers is bound to happen. Those who want help are likely to gravitate towards those they know can help them. Depending on the amount of help that's requested and/or needed, providing feedback can take up a fair chunk of personal time and effort.

If the aspiring writer requesting help is both willing and able to show their appreciation of that lost time, that's surely their choice. I see no moral dilemma, no fraud, no crime, on anyone's part.

-Derek

[English Dave]

Connections between writers is bound to happen. Those who want help are likely to gravitate towards those they know can help them. Depending on the amount of help that's requested and/or needed, providing feedback can take up a fair chunk of personal time and effort.

If the aspiring writer requesting help is both willing and able to show their appreciation of that lost time, that's surely their choice. I see no moral dilemma, no fraud, no crime, on anyone's part.

-Derek

Cough up $500 then.

I kid. I'm not talking about fraud or crime. Just a friendly warning. Lot'sa sharks out there.

[dpaterso]

You missed the "and able" part.

No win no fee, unfortunately. :)

-Derek

[English Dave]

You missed the "and able" part.

No win no fee, unfortunately. :)

-Derek
And 'able' tends to refer to the Studio brevet rank of brother -in-law.

[Goodwriterguy]

This could see-saw back and forth forever.

Below the produced screenwriter is a whole layer cake of writers with various levels of skill and experience that may be of value to others.

Fact is, there's a sea of aspiring screenwriters out there who want to improve but are unlikely to ever get anywhere near a prodco for feedback, free or otherwise, without being pointed in the right direction, i.e. offered a helping hand.

Connections between writers is bound to happen. Those who want help are likely to gravitate towards those they know can help them. Depending on the amount of help that's requested and/or needed, providing feedback can take up a fair chunk of personal time and effort.

If the aspiring writer requesting help is both willing and able to show their appreciation of that lost time, that's surely their choice. I see no moral dilemma, no fraud, no crime, on anyone's part.

-Derek
Exactamundo! And thank you!

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if someone is worried about the sharks, ask for a list of clients and speak directly to them, get their take. If your prospective helper (consultant) won't provide such a list, then pass. It's as easy as that.

I might sell a script tomorrow, then I reckon I'll be golden. Hoo ha! What did I read here the other day about typical first time sellers? They've written on average nine screenplays? Well, call me typical plus two, I won't mind at all.

None of it is worth making a Federal case over, although the warning about sharks is appropriate.

Let us proceed. :D