Irish midlands - 1680s

[flannelberry]

Hi there

I am looking for information on the Irish midlands in the 1680s. I have a number of Irish historical texts but they are largely 16th c.

The main thing I am wondering is - what was Irish culture like in this area just before the enactment of the Penal Laws? Did people largely speak Irish (if so - which dialect) or was English starting to trickle in from places like the Pale? I have read things that indicate because this place was so rural, much of what I know from the century previous would still apply - apparently change didn't happen quickly in Ireland but I'm not sure how reliable those sources are. I am looking for a snap shot of daily life - chores, livestock, dress, courtship and marriage all of that sort of stuff right before the Laws came down. I am amazed at how difficult it is to find information on that era (at least for me this far). I have spent months researching and had very little turn up. I wondered if that had to do with the Penal Laws and the destruction of Ireland that followed?

Anything people can offer on this era would be much appreciated.


Many, many thanks.

[Medievalist]

In vry broad terms, the upper class spoke English; the middle class and and the ambitious used Irish and English, the rest spoke a marked dialect of Irish that's been difficult to document.

Everything I know of for this era is in Gaelic. Let me think. The hedge schools were alive and well -- that might be a starting place.

[flannelberry]

Thanks very much for that. I'm writing about a Jesuit Priest in that era - totally fiction. He comes from a middle class family.

IYO - could I get away with using current (early modern) irish for the little bit of irish I'll be using?

[Medievalist]

I expect so, though I'd be sure to check with someone who knows Modern Irish as a native that you're not using modern slang Irish. I'm of no use there -- my Irish is all pre 1600. I can read modern Irish very slowly and painfully and that's it.

Technically, it would be a no-no; modern Irish is sort of a re-invention from the 1920s, with several dialects merged together, and some features of older language dropped all together, but no one is likely to notice or complain.

A Jesuit would definitely know Irish, and would likely be involved with a hedge school; the hedge schools promoted Irish via teaching the catechism in it.

[flannelberry]

Thanks again for your help. It's been very useful. So when I'm in a pre-1600 story you'd be the person to ask?

"Technically, it would be a no-no; modern Irish is sort of a re-invention from the 1920s, with several dialects merged together, and some features of older language dropped all together, but no one is likely to notice or complain."

This is great to know. I've had a couple of people tell me that it hasn't much changed since the bigger changes around 1600.

This is great:
"A Jesuit would definitely know Irish, and would likely be involved with a hedge school; the hedge schools promoted Irish via teaching the catechism in it."

In the story he's Irish born, gone to the Jesuit school in France and returned to Ireland (but not his home area) to teach. I am so grateful for your help. Would it be ok to PM you with future questions?

[Medievalist]

My automatic response is "sure PM me with questions," followed by a caveat that I may or may not know the answers.

But to be truthful, no, please don't do that until after Jan 1, 2007. I'm desperately trying to do the final bits of my dissertation before tossing it, like a grenade, at my committee and hiding. I already owe two people lengthy responses to questions and haven't time to do it.

Post 'em here; there are a lot of smart people here with all sorts of interests and backgrounds and some top-notch researchers. I'll keep watching too, but in the meantime, you might try my Web site on Celtic Studies Resources (http://www.digitalmedievalist.com). I'm mostly interested in earlier Celtic stuff, but there are some resources on the Web and elsewhere that might help.

[robeiae]

Lisa, could you give my 200,000 word WIP a once-over? Just for kicks.

Oh, and I need it by Friday.

:D

[Medievalist]

Sure Robiae; where would you like to be kicked?

I know a few places . . .

[flannelberry]

But to be truthful, no, please don't do that until after Jan 1, 2007.
Many thanks for your truthful response. I will continue to post things here - and check out your page.

Fortunately this is my WITW project (that's 'waiting in the wings'). I have been trying to school myself to finish one draft of one project before diving totally into the next.

Good luck with the dissertation - celtic studies by any chance? I have been putting the PhD off because it gets in the way of writing for me. Perhaps if I did something more related to the stuff I like writing... hmmm...

[pdr]

are you thinking Ireland is a quiet settled Catholic nation in 1680?

'Cos if you were it just aint so!
I've taken the liberty of doing a quick gallop through the 17thC in Ireland for you. I apologise if all this is well known to you.

Poor old Ireland has been in a terrible mess since the Romans!!! But the 17thC troubles actually started in 1536 the Irish Parliament made HenryV111 head of the Church of Ireland which meant that Catholicism was now officially banned. Though there had been a lot of pother in Ireland between England and Ireland for centuries.

However no one really enforced Protestantism until Elizabeth 1 and the Nine Years War - 1593-1603. More protestant settlers were sent to Ireland to take over land confiscated from Catholics. Therefore more trouble.

In 1607/8 there was another Irish rebellion and James 1 and V1 decided to crush the Catholic rebels with heavy land confiscations and large numbers of Scots and English settlers were sent out with a protecting army.
Problems grew, mainly caused by taking the land but also because of religion.

Then came the Ulster Rising -1641- and English Parliament heard of the so called Catholic atrocities to Protestants: murder, dismembered babies and torture of women etc. Fury in the Puritan hearts setting the scene for Cromwell's army and actions later.

King Charles had his hands full in 1642 with the Civil War and so in Ireland there was even a brief Irish Alliance to fight the English troops in Ireland but Scotland sent an army so it was another uneasy truce. I have to say the Irish didn't help themselves with their Erin/Ulster hostilities.

Then came Cromwell and the severe defeat of the Irish. More land confiscation and families forced off their land.

At the restoration Charles 11 does nothing to help the disposed or Catholics and it's still chaos in 1680.

A Jesuit Priest in Ireland was asking for trouble!

[Medievalist]

They were there though; the Hedge schools were almost entirely run by them, and they risked, and lost, their lives. There's also a tradition of ms. preservation of the native tradition that's tied directly to the Jesuits.

Catholocism, and the Irish Catechisim, got people killed.

[pdr]

where do you mean by the Irish Midlands?

I grew up hearing about Erin and Ulster so where in modern day Ireland are you setting your story and what was the county name in the 17thC.

I've a couple of good references for every day Irish life in 1680 but it depends on where in Ireland you've set your story.

[flannelberry]

Hi pdr

Thanks for your post. I picked that time frame because Ireland was still reeling after Cromwell and then sent reeling the other direction with the ascension of the Catholic King - and then back again with the Entactment of the Penal Laws. They all figure very highly in the story.

However - IMO - you never have to apologize for providing information - how were you to know I had researched that? I must confess, I'm a research-a-holic (which is why I loed grad school) and it's a problem for historical fiction because I can research myself right out of writing time!

I was researching family roots which led to learning about this and somehow I got crossed in with the important role the Jesuits played at this time - and the fluctuating of having a Catholic monarch for such a short time and thought... yep, there's a story in there.

Thanks to Medievalist re: hedge schools .

The Irish Midlands are knonw currently as the area including Laois, Leitrim, Longford, Offaly, Roscommon, Tipperary and Westmeath.

[flannelberry]

I should add that I would love the info you have. I've found a few things but not enough to satisfy me that I have any comprehension of day to day life. The mc isn't from the Midlands - so maybe it would be applicable to where ever he'll end up being from.

Many thanks.

[pdr]

It's amazing how one's upbringing leaps to the fore. I was so amazed that anyone would want to write about a 'wicked old Jesuit' bringing the 'terrible inquisition and undermining the stability of the King' and attempts to a peaceful solution in Ireland that I was sure you didn't know all the facts.

That's a strict Anglican upbringing for you and English history lessons in a firmly protestant school. Jesuits were terrorists, and evil. Their presence did not help the Irish but did considerable damage to them. The history texts I read were clear about this! Interesting isn't it?

Please do remember though, that just as the 1641 uprising atrocities was grossly exaggerated in England, so Cromwell's heavy hand in Ireland was/is also exaggerated.

Costume book: English Clothes in the 17thC by C. Willett Cunnington and Phillis Cunnington;
I hope that's the right title, look up the authors. They include so much detail about wigs and hats, handkerchiefs and underwear. I've not found a modern book to replace any of theirs and they did a series covering early England to modern day! They will be in your good libraries but are expensive to buy 2nd hand because everyone wants them.

Irish clothes also followed the French and English fashions but were several years behind. There's a diary somewhere with just this comment about Irish fashions in the 18thC.

Have you tried http://www.pikle.demon.co.uk/diaryjunction.html for diaries written in the 17thC?

Still thinking about books as mine cover the early half of the C but http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/18th/history.html is good for a hunt for web-sites and references.

[flannelberry]

Pdr

No harm done. My main is a soft spoken Jesuit who went to it in the family tradition. He's very devoted to teaching children - much more that than the Church...

"Please do remember though, that just as the 1641 uprising atrocities was grossly exaggerated in England, so Cromwell's heavy hand in Ireland was/is also exaggerated." - I will keep that in mind. That was part of why I picked the midlands... because of the general bogginess it seemed they escaped a lot of what happened. I wanted to keep the area very Irish before the enactment of the Penal Laws, at which time the priest will have to flee (doesn't love the priesthood enough to be drawn and quartered, although many did).

Thanks so much for the Pikle site - I did not have that resource! It's also given me some other search ideas.

[pdr]

Books.
'Irish Holiday' by Dorothy Hartley where in the early 1930s she followed in the footsteps of Giraldus Cambrensis , copying his travels in 12th century Ireland.
What makes it useful for you is her descriptions of remote Ireland, cooking/farming/gardening that would have been used in the 1680s and her ear for Irish dialogue.

If you want to find out about how to thatch, turn wood, make charcoal, spin, weave, farm old style with horses and all the old crops and crafts Hartley has several books about them, 'Life in England', 'Crafts of England' are two.
Her 'Food in England' will give you a very good sense of what people ate in 1680 and how to cook it.

There is a set of DVDs by the BBC 'Tales from the Green Valley' available through their on-line shop or amazon. Set on a Welsh farm not altered since 1620 whose owners run it as a rare breed, old type seed bank, 17thC farm. 5 practical archaeologists lived there and worked the farm for a year as if in 1620 and the DVDs cover the events of each month. Farming methods did not change much by 1680 and it does give you very good visuals of clothes, cooking, house keeping, and the regular tasks. Those would not differ much from the rural English or Irish in 1680.

[flannelberry]

Many thanks again.

I think that "Tale from the Green Valley" may have been broadcast, wasn't it? I was sure I saw that on the telly at the in laws...

The books will be excellent resources as well. They're exactly what I'm looking for - I know lots about the military history but what I want to know about is the culture and day to day stuff.

It also helps to be reminded of how slowly change happened in rural Ireland. It renders some of my other resources useful (which is a pleasant change).

Now, prior to the Glorious Revolution, would hedge schools have been secret or could you still have an obvious Catholic Church and teach children at it? And what did the Irish call the Catholic Church (ie the Scottish said Papish)?

[pdr]

were called that because they were often literarily held in the lee of, or at that cave like space in the centre of, a thick hedge. They were banned, forbidden and those taking part in dire trouble.

'Tales from the Green Valley' I know has been shown in my home and the UK. It's seeing them at each month's tasks and getting the sense of what had to be done every month or starve. If you haven't got a copy of Thomas Tusser then you might not have the understanding of those monthly rhythms in a rural life. The church chose March for Lent as that coincided with when food was at its scarcest. A good April brought a flush as the hens began to lay again, the cows calved and there was milk and the salad herbs would be freshening for fresh greens. A calf would be killed to provide its stomach for the rennet for cheese making so there was the first fresh meat of the year. And the rich milk went into fresh butter and feeding the calves. When the milk changed its qualities in May cheese making began. Knowing all this stuff helps you give your people the right jobs at the right time and avoids your readers finding fault.

[flannelberry]

Thanks Pdr. I think I'm trying to get my head around the cultural climate - before the Penal Laws Catholicism was tolerated and so I'm trying to figure out how hedge the hedge schools were - up until they were super hedgy and priests were being drawn and quartered.

In terms of the farm life, that's the one thing we actually live here. Obviously not to the 17th c degree (I am online after all!) but we actually live on a working farm, harvest our own meat (ok, we have done but it's a heck of a lot of work so we don't do it too much!) etc. I am able to understand, as long as I know what the weather is likely to be, able to figure out the farm tasks... it's the way they insert into the cultural aspects of life that I need to understand. Things like church closure for Lent are exactly the things I need to learn.

I think I like to write historial, fantasy (including end of the world) stuff because we live a really self sufficient lifestyle. However, I am also a person who has a difficult time with suspension of disbelief and errors really lose me. Therefore, I want to be careful not to err.

I really appreciate your help with this!

[AnnieColleen]

church closure for Lent Huh? I've been lurking/following and didn't see this; what did I miss?

I saw where pdr mentioned the church choosing March for Lent due to food scarcity, but not church closure. (And actually you might want to research Lent a little more if you haven't; it's the 40 days (plus Sundays) before Easter -- not much relation to food scarcity, at least as I understand it -- and Easter varies based on the moon and the spring solstice. It generally overlaps a good part of March, but it's not based on the 12-month calendar at all.)

[pdr]

Welcome, AnnieColleen. Colleen? Irish?

Yes, we're all at cross purposes here, I think. I didn't make myself clear.

The early Christian church pinned Christmas and Easter to times that had been major non-Christian festivals. Lent, those 40 days and 40 nights of doing without, was placed before Easter of course, but fitted very nicely in with the farming year because February and March were the lean months for most people.

What's your area of interest AnnieC?

[johnnysannie]

The dates for both Easter and Passover are based on when the spring equinox occurs...and thus the dates for the forty dates of Lent are established after the date for Easter has been calculated in any given year.

http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/scienceques2004/20050415.htm


As a lifelong Catholic, to my knowledge churches do not and have never "closed for Lent"....I don't quite understand just where the idea that a Catholic church, then or now, would cease to operate for Lent. It's a forty day period for prayer, penitence, and fasting.

Something that Flannelberry may want to consider, however, is that the history of England and Ireland are entertwined since England occupied much of Ireland for centuries. A church being closed during the time frame of Flannelberry's story would be more likely to be due to this:

"The king favoured toleration of Catholicity, but was overruled by the bigotry of the Parliament in England and of the viceroy, Ormond, in Ireland; and if the reign of Charles saw some toleration, it also saw the judicial murder of Venerable Oliver Plunkett and a proclamation by Ormond in 1678, ordering that all priests should leave the country, and that all Catholic churches and convents should be closed. " quote taken from

thttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11611c.htmhe Catholic Encylopedia online here:

The events described were before the strictest Penal Laws after victory by William of Orange at the Battle of the Boyne in 1690. Although the Treaty of Limerick was to have returned many rights to Catholics, it was broken in a very short amount of time and the Penal Laws that are well known were enacted. Yet, The Penal Laws have roots well before that and are tied to Queen Elizabeth's excommunication by the Pope. A long history of discrimination and persecution against Catholics by the ruling English is well documented and pre-dates breaking the Treaty of Limerick by many years.

Some additional links that might help include:

http://www.bartleby.com/65/pe/PenalLaw.html

http://www.libraryireland.com/JoyceHistory/PartV.php


A few books:

"A Statement Of The Penal Laws That Aggrieve The Catholics of Ireland" Denys Scully

"The Irish Penal Code And Some of Its Historians" R.E. Burns

[flannelberry]

Huh? I've been lurking/following and didn't see this; what did I miss?

I saw where pdr mentioned the church choosing March for Lent due to food scarcity, but not church closure.

Oops - read too quickly. That's where the surprise came in - I can't recall teh church closing for anything.

FWIW - my dad's Irish Catholic (mum grew up in an English CoE family). I grew up in a strange permutation of both.

My story opens just before the Ascension and for a variety of reasons the priest is leaving Ireland before the worst of the Penal Laws. Only the first third of the story takes place during that couple of years.

I am really aware of the laws - having read them backwards and forwards - they're about the only thing you can find easily about that era. It's definitely the cultural stuff I'm after (like if the churches really were closed for Lent).

Thanks all.

[AnnieColleen]

Colleen? Irish?
American, with Irish/Scottish/Welsh/German ancestry. But, yeah, we tend to identify more with the Irish/Scottish side (Kevin, Brian, Shawn, Charlie, Patrick, Erin...not every relative, but several of them!)

The early Christian church pinned Christmas and Easter to times that had been major non-Christian festivals. Lent, those 40 days and 40 nights of doing without, was placed before Easter of course, but fitted very nicely in with the farming year because February and March were the lean months for most people.
Yeah, the timing does work out nicely with the farming year. The dating of Easter follows the same system used for Passover, since the original event was so intimately connected with Passover (regarded as the fulfillment of what was prefigured). I think that's what you're referring to here? Not the same situation as the relationship between Christmas and earlier festivals.

What's your area of interest AnnieC? In regards to history/writing? Jack of all trades, master of none -- meaning, I've not had the opportunity to do much historical study, but I enjoy reading about quite a few different periods prior to the last century or so. Irish/Scottish references generally catch my attention due to the family connection, also Catholic references.

[AnnieColleen]

FWIW - my dad's Irish Catholic (mum grew up in an English CoE family). I grew up in a strange permutation of both.

Sounds like the Irish Rovers' "The Orange and the Green" -- not exactly, I know. I always thought that was a fun song.

Our former pastor's parents were French-Canadian Catholic and Russian Jewish -- that made for some interesting permutations!

[flannelberry]

I know that song well.

I was trying to imagine the life your former pastor would have lived - colourful, to say the least, I'm sure!

[AnnieColleen]

It was definitely colorful -- I wish I knew more of his life. He died a couple of years ago. His mother still lives here (in her 90s), but her health is failing pretty badly. :(

[Rumfuddle]

Hello there, I happened upon this discussion rather randomly while out on a Google drift and have registerd with the site to offer a perspective from the horse's mouth, so to speak, that may be of use to you. I'm a native of the Midlands, although I now live in Dublin. Like most Irish people English is my mother tongue, but I speak passable Irish. Although Irish has in recent decades been hammered into often controversial but emminently practical "official" and uniform shape by the mandarins of various government departments; particularily in order to aid the compulsory teaching of the language in schools; many of us still see the still existing dialects as offering a more authentic, deeper, sweeter version of the language. In Northern Ireland, for instance, it is pretty much the norm to ignore the Caighdeán Oifigiúil and just teach Donegal (West Ulster) Irish directly. There have even been attempts in more recent years to resurrect East Ulster Irish based on surviving fragments of poetry and so on.


So, which dialect was spoken in the Midlands before Anglicisation? It is difficult to say for certain as spoken Irish seems to have already become extremely weak in this region when the Caint na nDaoine, literally People's Speech, began to be used in literature around the 17th century. Up to then all writing had been in a uniform Classical or High Irish that could only be understood by educated people. So we don't have any direct writen examples of this dialect. The only reference I have been able to find to Midlands Irish is in the Oxford Companion to Irish History which mentions a dialect called "Galeonic Irish" which was spoken in Connacht, Westmeath, South Longford and right across to Dublin and Wexford. If this is the case then the closest surviving dialect to Midlands Irish would most probably be Connacht Irish, today mainly spoken in Galway. Of course, as another poster has mentioned, by this stage monoglot use of Irish would probably have been the preserve of the rural poor... Your Jesuit would almost certainly have spoken Irish aswell as English..

So, here are a few key examples of this dialect:

1. How are you -
Cén chaoi a bhfuil tú? As distinct from Conas atá tú? in Standard Irish.

2. Everyday -

Chuile Lá as distinct from gach lá in Standard Irish.

3. I know -

Tá a fhios 'am as distinct from tá a fhios agam in the Standard lingo..

I imagine a Jesuit would have been well versed in High Irish. I imagine the different dialects have only acquired their current prestigue amongst language enthusiasts due to their being the last surviving remnants of a dying language but that when the language was still strong excessive use of dialect would have been something cultivated people would have avoided.


I hope this is of some use to you anyway - Go n-éirigh an t-ádh leat! Good luck!...

[flannelberry]

Wow! Thanks for this - it is incredibly helpful.