Paralyzing Writers.

[PeeDee]

First, I'd like to get something clear: I'm not condemning, complaining, or rebelling against. I'm just musing out loud.

There.

Now. It seems to me that, in many many ways, the internet has not been a good thing for writers, especially young and learning writers whose bones haven't quite hardened all the way yet.

Other writers have commented on this. Specifically, I'm thinking of Harlan Ellison, who pointed out that the internet is full of no end of misinformation and has no real method for seperating the pap from the chaff. This is true, to an extent. Wikipedia is useful, right up to the point when it's not.

That's not my point, though, that's is and I'll leave him to it. My point is this:

I notice more and more that young writers are not worrying about whether or not their stories are good (well, they worry about that too) but are beginning to inject words like supposed to and is this okay to do? into their posts.

I don't just mean here, either. I just had a submission for BBT which had the line I wrote this in first person. I hope that's okay in it, and it made me realize that young authors are beginning to get unwilling to experiment.

Beta readers, head-hopping, outlining, NOT outlining, editing, revising, traditional publishing, print on demand publishing, critique group, paid editors, self promotion, butt-in-chair...

The internet is so full of information for what writers should do and shoulnd't do (much of it stated less as a command and more as sensible advice) but as a certain point, when a young writer, does this become so overpressuring -- like the well-meaning advice of a parent who cares deeply, but is always right there -- that the young writer becomes too afraid to do something really strange and wild and possibly creative (also possibly crap) for fear of breaking a rule, or offending the writerly community?

When I was a young writer, the internet hadn't occured to me as something related to my writing. I wrote, sometimes for me and sometimes for readers, but mostly I just wrote quietly and alone. I didn't know that there were books on the subject of writing until I've been dilligently been trying things for two years or so. The internet came even later than that.

By the time I had terms like those I listed above (beta reader, critique, etc.) in my head, I had already established myself as a writer, in my own head if nowhere else. By the time these ideas were presented to me, I could hold them up against where I already stood as a writer and decide if they meshed well or not.

(Some of them did; some of them were wonderful. Our own preyer gave me a useful piece of advice a year or two ago that's been indispensible to me.)

I'm casting no rights or wrongs here. I'm happy for the internet, and happy for my little community here. I'm just wondering if it's perhaps not going to be a good thing for a young generation of budding writers. I'm wondering if it's going to paralyze them. That's all.

(edited to add: It occurs to me that this perhaps belongs more in the Writer's Roundtable than this novel's forum. Or perhaps not.)

[MidnightMuse]

When Iwas a young writer, the internet hadn't occured to me as something related to my writing.

When I was a young writer, the internet wasn't around. (well, okay, I don't know when "Al Gore invented it" :D but still . . .) And I'll say that I think, for me, that was a good thing.

I don't know about those who have had this invention all of their writing lives, but I can see how it might have done more harm than good to my own mentality.

Although, that said, I've grown more and learned much since coming here.

[Carrie in PA]

*blink blink*

When I was young (and dinosaurs roamed the earth) computers weren't even a common item. I didn't even touch one of the frightful beasts until high school.

Anyway. I don't think it's the internet. And I'm not so sure it's youth. People as a whole are getting lazy and expecting someone else to fix [whatever].

[RTH]

Certainly.

It took me at least 6 or 7 years of writing to get to the internet, and I only got there once I began to think about getting stuff published. Even now I consider it more of a networking (and procrastinating! :) )vehicle than a place to learn about writing per se.

I do that by reading and writing and reading and writing.

This IS a great community, and I've learned a ton about the business here, but by and large writing is a lonely pursuit.

I wonder if the new writers who put "Is this OK?" in their query letters are trying more to seek approval or validation, rather than just exposing themselves to the market (a.k.a. Mr. Nasty Rejection-Monster). Not that we don't all want approval, but you know what I mean...

[Zolah]

First, I'd like to get something clear: I'm not condemning, complaining, or rebelling against. I'm just musing out loud.

There.

Now. It seems to me that, in many many ways, the internet has not been a good thing for writers, especially young and learning writers whose bones haven't quite hardened all the way yet.

Other writers have commented on this. Specifically, I'm thinking of Harlan Ellison, who pointed out that the internet is full of no end of misinformation and has no real method for seperating the pap from the chaff. This is true, to an extent. Wikipedia is useful, right up to the point when it's not.

That's not my point, though, that's is and I'll leave him to it. My point is this:

I notice more and more that young writers are not worrying about whether or not their stories are good (well, they worry about that too) but are beginning to inject words like supposed to and is this okay to do? into their posts.

I don't just mean here, either. I just had a submission for BBT which had the line I wrote this in first person. I hope that's okay in it, and it made me realize that young authors are beginning to get unwilling to experiment.

Beta readers, head-hopping, outlining, NOT outlining, editing, revising, traditional publishing, print on demand publishing, critique group, paid editors, self promotion, butt-in-chair...

The internet is so full of information for what writers should do and shoulnd't do (much of it stated less as a command and more as sensible advice) but as a certain point, when a young writer, does this become so overpressuring -- like the well-meaning advice of a parent who cares deeply, but is always right there -- that the young writer becomes too afraid to do something really strange and wild and possibly creative (also possibly crap) for fear of breaking a rule, or offending the writerly community?

When I was a young writer, the internet hadn't occured to me as something related to my writing. I wrote, sometimes for me and sometimes for readers, but mostly I just wrote quietly and alone. I didn't know that there were books on the subject of writing until I've been dilligently been trying things for two years or so. The internet came even later than that.

By the time I had terms like those I listed above (beta reader, critique, etc.) in my head, I had already established myself as a writer, in my own head if nowhere else. By the time these ideas were presented to me, I could hold them up against where I already stood as a writer and decide if they meshed well or not.

(Some of them did; some of them were wonderful. Our own preyer gave me a useful piece of advice a year or two ago that's been indispensible to me.)

I'm casting no rights or wrongs here. I'm happy for the internet, and happy for my little community here. I'm just wondering if it's perhaps not going to be a good thing for a young generation of budding writers. I'm wondering if it's going to paralyze them. That's all.

(edited to add: It occurs to me that this perhaps belongs more in the Writer's Roundtable than this novel's forum. Or perhaps not.)


Well, for what it's worth, I think you may be right. Everywhere I see enthusiastic young writers asking: Should I do this? Or, Will this work? Or, Will this get me rejected? And a million and one people and their fathers seem to jump in to reply: NO! No, my child! Never use prologues, dream sequences, flashbacks, never head-hop or try anything strange and new! You'll never get published! Editors don't like that! Readers won't read that! It frightens me the type of books these young people will write. How will they LEARN to get things right if they're never allowed to experiment, make mistakes, get things WRONG. I just see this endless stream of perfectly presented manuscripts arriving at publishers containing stories which are bloodless, bland, boring and most of all frightened. These books may contain no wild bits, no silly errors, no misconceived ideas or badly used devices, but they will also contain very little life. What kind of advice would James Joyce receive if he was asking on the internet today? Probably to shape up, use proper punctuation and stop being such a silly little boy if he wanted to get published (because publishing is a business, you know!). How sad.

[CrankItTo11]

This is an interesting post with some interesting points.


I see your point about new writer’s feeling them must stay within certain rules of writing. I think, however, that it is the nature of artists to rebel. Fearlessly breaking the rules once one understands the established rules is all part of an artist’s journey, right? (Wow. That sounded cheesy.)

Yes, the information on the Internet is readily available to most writers (young and old) and the sheer volume of information available online means even more misinformation... However, contradictory and misleading information is available in all formats – Internet, books, magazines, writers’ groups, classes, etc.

[WildScribe]

I think that young writers were always afraid of doing something wrong, but since there was no internet out there to tell them what was wrong or right, they had to teach themselves. I'm 20 (not very much older than the internet) but I have always taken writing advice with a grain of salt. (Not to say that I don't listen, but I usually seek a second opinion, too.)

I think that I mostly learned to write through loving to read. I try to emulate (to a point) the things that I love best in other writers. But you're right, for people somewhat less secure than myself, the internet can become a terrible crutch.

[RG570]

I guess I'm probably one of these young writers. When I started writing seriously, which is really not that long ago, the internet was a huge crutch. It probably still is to some extent.

There are a few things I wanted to try but haven't simply because of what I read on here. Then I read, say, a Margaret Atwood novel, and it blows away every consensus I've read on the internets, and it's really good.

It really is quite confusing at times. It's especially hard to read a site like tvtropes.org, where it categorizes and names every possible plot and story device and character. In some ways it's good because I know what's been done, but in the end it is quite paralyzing in some ways.

[Simon Woodhouse]

I didn't start writing until later in life, and I've only been at it for five years. The internet has been there the whole time.

When I first started writing, I read somewhere that it's better to only read one book on how to write (it was probably in that very book). The author went on to explain that too much information on all the 'ins and outs' of writing can muddy the water. You'd end up writing in a very sterile, almost lifeless way. I've always kept that bit of advice in mind, especially when reading 'advice' on internet forums.

I've noticed that what may seem like advice is actually opinion. If person A dislikes head hopping, they'll present their case against it as if they're stating facts. But it's just an opinion.

If young writers (or any writer come to that), writes only according to the rules, that's ok as long as it doesn't stifle their creativity. But if you do break some of the writing rules, you've got to be prepared for people to tell you so. However, theirs is only an opinion, not a commandment chiselled in stone.

[limitedtimeauthor]

Yes! Pee Dee. It stymies me. I feel a persistent urgency to read everything everywhere before I commit a word to my document, lest I - unknowing - commit unpardonable sins. It's aggravating!

And I'm not a young writer.

ltd.

[RTH]

There are a few things I wanted to try but haven't simply because of what I read on here. Then I read, say, a Margaret Atwood novel, and it blows away every consensus I've read on the internets, and it's really good.

At the risk of offending everyone present, it's probably far better to emulate renowned, brilliant, influential authors like Margaret Atwood than to do what a bunch of procrastinators on the internet say. :tongue

[Higgins]

Well, for what it's worth, I think you may be right. Everywhere I see enthusiastic young writers asking: Should I do this? Or, Will this work? Or, Will this get me rejected? And a million and one people and their fathers seem to jump in to reply: NO! No, my child! Never use prologues, dream sequences, flashbacks, never head-hop or try anything strange and new! You'll never get published! Editors don't like that! Readers won't read that! It frightens me the type of books these young people will write. How will they LEARN to get things right if they're never allowed to experiment, make mistakes, get things WRONG. I just see this endless stream of perfectly presented manuscripts arriving at publishers containing stories which are bloodless, bland, boring and most of all frightened. These books may contain no wild bits, no silly errors, no misconceived ideas or badly used devices, but they will also contain very little life. What kind of advice would James Joyce receive if he was asking on the internet today? Probably to shape up, use proper punctuation and stop being such a silly little boy if he wanted to get published (because publishing is a business, you know!). How sad.

It's crate-of-writing classes and their crazy standards. If you write so as not to violate any standards, you write so as to generate featureless prose (with no adverbs and no adjectives...for example always showing{ which is insane }). I'm not suggesting that people should not have standards, but that they should develop them based on possibilities and effects not on externally trumped up generalized verbiage that claims to guarantee something or other and is guaranteed by some other indefinite something or other.

[Diviner]

I assume that writers write because of a fire in the gut. Anyone who lets a bunch of opinions diminish that fire won't burn brightly enough anyway. That said, much of what is said in chat rooms, especially the critiques, gives a writer a chance to see the work from beyond their own perspective. We know, more or less, how we think or feel, but we can't always know how we come across or what our words actually communicate to others. It serves as both a broader view and a bolstering. If a writing hopeful is beaten down by all this and smooths into some kind of conformity, chances are that person's writing burns not so much in his/her gut but is more of an ego trip or an innocent wish to see themselves published.

Writers write. The net helps them to communicate. Any lack of originality we may see in print likely has as much to do with publishers wishing to sell books as it does to any kind of influence on the net.

[PeeDee]

See, and that's part of my point. When I was a young warthog, I learned my writing by reading books that I loved, and then writing like them, or writing similar to them. Eventually, this turns into a stew and out of that eventually comes a writing voice.

But I was doing this for a lot of years before I came onto the internet. Even when I WAS aware of the internet as a place for writing, I was using it for quite some time before I stumbled upon a group of writers.

Supposing you're a young writer who, with fifty or so friends, wrote fan-fiction for years (I knew a number of people who did, back int he day) and eventually, you all try to write "real" fiction, only to find yourself hideously outclassed. It's because during your formative years, you've been feeding off each other's fanfiction work instead of the works of published authors.

....or, they're trying to write like a movie looks.

....or write like a video game plays.

I'm not advocating any particular argument here, I'm really not. This has just been bothering me all week, and I wanted to say something about it. It's just that so many times, when I see the questions of young writers, I want to throw my hands up in frustration and say Just write! Just write whatever you have in your head, and your heart, and go from there!


...


This is NOT to say that you, dearest young writer who may be reading this, should stop asking questions and learning. whether you're reading books or reading the internet, you're reading and you're learning, and that's important. Since you're here, you may as well improve your writing, right? Please don't let a thread like this startle or discourage you.

[greglondon]

It's called "analysis paralysis" and it isn't limited to internet connectees.

folks who get so wound up into "am I doing this right?" that they stop doing anything at all are not limited to writers, either.

I'd say it's a function of being human and people just need to be aware that its part of our firmware and we may need to upgrade our code from time to time.

;)

[badducky]

You're forgetting the use of the internet in protecting young writers by giving everyone with library that has a computer in it the ability to visit preditors and editors and writer beware and... Absolute Write!

Honestly, if it wasn't the internet, it'd be something else. It hasn't affected me quite nearly as much as it has helped me. 1) Researching markets -- hey, I guess they aren't a *traditional* publisher after all! 2) Meeting other writers -- hello, by the way, to all of you -- outside of my little corner of the world. 3) Researching wild, zany things from experts in the field via stuff like the Jstor and websites beyond wikipedia. 4) having a mildly productive way to rest my head between coffee pots instead of just pacing nervously and/or eating chocolate due to numbers 1-3.

This reminds me... Time to research me some markets!

[Bufty]

I'm neither a young writer nor a seasoned one -in terms of writing novels - but to me the biggest danger in the Internet is the anonymity and the ability of every Tom, Dick and Harry (and Bufty) to spout as an expert on everything without being answerable to anyone.

If I read a post littered with Do's and Don'ts as opposed to opinions, I check up on who posted it and if I can't find out, chances are I won't attach too much weight to it. And opinions I treat as such - opinions.

Bad advice and information on everything is available everywhere, it's simply more accessible on the Net, but I suspect someone who is seriously interested in writing and has a degree of talent will soon spot when they are receiving duff advice. And on a site like this -the duff advice givers are also soon spotted and corrected. I can't see it stifling genuine creativity or experimentation.

[PeeDee]

You're forgetting the use of the internet in protecting young writers by giving everyone with library that has a computer in it the ability to visit preditors and editors and writer beware and... Absolute Write!

I'm not forgetting or slighting them at all. I'm all in favor of them, and mostly of the internet. I'm just suggesting that the internet is perhaps atrophying certain parts of a young writer's growing experience.

It's like getting a vaccine which doesn't lead to you devleoping a stronger immune system...which is a crude analogy, but the best I've got.

[Amiton]

This is NOT to say that you, dearest young writer who may be reading this, should stop asking questions and learning. whether you're reading books or reading the internet, you're reading and you're learning, and that's important. Since you're here, you may as well improve your writing, right? Please don't let a thread like this startle or discourage you.

I was so tempted to say something snarky in response to this, especially given its personalized message and its unPeeDee-likeness (??!?!?). It just felt wrong...but at the same time it felt right.

What would PeeDee do? (WWPDD)

Amiton.

[Pisarz]

PeeDee, I can identify with what you say. I've revised many parts of my manuscript because I've come across a "DON'T" that sadly, I already "DID" (and sent--gasp!--to an agent). While I am eternally grateful for the superb advice, facts, and opinions offered on AW, agent blogs, and elsewhere, I'd be kidding if I said it doesn't sometimes lead to "paralysis of analysis" (as my husband calls it). I haven't broken any major rules of writing, but every now and then I come across an unexpected DON'T regarding some minor element of my writing. Given that I am an unproven, unpubbed newbie with varying degrees of confidence (depending on rejection/requests/partials/fulls and combinations thereof), such rules can make a novice wonder interminably whether or not it was "OK" to do something.

As in everything else, balance is key. Heeding advice, sorting out the good from the bad, and making reasonable applications of it are all part of the game. What I, as a newbie, am trying to decipher is which rules can be bent, which can be broken, and which are just short of sacred.

[PeeDee]

[quote=Bufty]I'm neither a young writer nor a seasoned one -in terms of writing novels - but to me the biggest danger in the Internet is the anonymity and the ability of every Tom, Dick and Harry (and Bufty) to spout as an expert on everything without being answerable to anyone.
[quote]

I agree with that. It's why I've always got my name at the bottom of my posts.

[farfromfearless]

I think this issue has more to do with current educational standards and behaviors associated with introducing the internet as a classroom tool, rather than relying on actually teaching. That is not to say that teachers do not teach -- quite the contrary -- nor does that mean that students do not learn. It is more a case of not learning enough and falling back on a crutch. It is easy to go to a website for reference; it is easy to copy and paste; it is easy to follow the mistakes of others an believe they are correct. I am not immune to this - so few of us are these days, but I am aware and that is the difference between many devoted (I hesitate to say good or experienced) writers and the cruft of young writers who want, but do not take the time to truly learn. You have to learn to walk before you can run.

[PeeDee]

It's like using a calculator instead of doing the math physically in your head, or on paper. Eventually, the skill stagnates, because it's unused.

Likewise, I think that there is perhaps a young writer who, when he fails to find what he needs through Google, does not think to use an encyclopedia. I worry that one of these days, I will do a book full of "obscure facts that no one can find," because I got them out of a book on my shelf instead of off the internet.

[Amiton]

PeeDee, I can identify with what you say. I've revised many parts of my manuscript because I've come across a "DON'T" that sadly, I already "DID" (and sent--gasp!--to an agent). While I am eternally grateful for the superb advice, facts, and opinions offered on AW, agent blogs, and elsewhere, I'd be kidding if I said it doesn't sometimes lead to "paralysis of analysis" (as my husband calls it). I haven't broken any major rules of writing, but every now and then I come across an unexpected DON'T regarding some minor element of my writing. Given that I am an unproven, unpubbed newbie with varying degrees of confidence (depending on rejection/requests/partials/fulls and combinations thereof), such rules can make a novice wonder interminably whether or not it was "OK" to do something.

As in everything else, balance is key. Heeding advice, sorting out the good from the bad, and making reasonable applications of it are all part of the game. What I, as a newbie, am trying to decipher is which rules can be bent, which can be broken, and which are just short of sacred.

Herein lies the beauty of the Internet amongst all its evils. If we can keep a narrow focus and happen across a treasure such as AW, then we can be better for it. Like all things subsidiary to the master web, AW has its subset of overwhelming advice and overprotective parents, and we can use those tools to grow. Only we'll have a little bit of supervision in our little microcosm.

It's not all rainclouds and sinkholes.

Amiton.

[Akuma]

As a young writer, I'm reasonably lucky to have been taught the free side and experimental side of writing. Before that, I didn't have much faith in my craft.

So, yeah, I'm not afraid of writing and not desperate for every opinion on the forums (not that I'll brush such opinions off, mind you--that's ignorant).

And as for paralyzing writers...that's a good goal. To become such a good writer that you literally paralyze the reader with your brilliance.

Who wants some? :e2brows:

[Del]

A little trivial history, the internet is over 60 years old. It was first created in the early forties for military purposes but was quickly adopted by the academic world...or vice versa. Some of the terminology is even older. Baud for instance comes from a French engineer named Baudot who died in 1903. The term can be traced back to the twenties relating to speeds of electronic transmissions.

I can recall first hearing of the World Wide Web on the Local Network (We used phone lines and modems) in the late eighties, referred to (and with a laugh) as "internet with pictures". SO, we have been subjected to misinformation a lot longer than many think. :)

As for today and the misinformation highway, I think CT11 is right saying we can get misinformation from anywhere. Experience will eventually settle the questions and we are all going to believe what we believe, regardless. I don't think the internet is going to be the end of literature as we know it. I find it a great tool. The first thing you need to learn though, you have to cross check the information you get. I recall learning that in 4th grade; "List your resources and use more than one."

No writer that is going to become anyone is going to do so strictly from internet probing. Point to point debating like here on AW is a great way to learn but is this internet? I see us all more as an obedient class where the teacher has stepped away. There is a lot of direction on the web and, if it isn't accepted straight forth as knowledge, it can lead you to acceptable conclusions.

I don't think anyone that limits themselves to the web is going to suffer. Any mistakes will be forgotten with time. If they have the stuff they will soon learn to seek other resources and if they don't have the stuff, they likely weren't going to make it anyway.

This of course is just my view and by no means should be considered fact before confirming it through varied sources. :D


edit...WOW 17 posts while I composed my one. I must be getting old.

[PeeDee]

I think that by and large, many new writers are just fine. Probably. Actually, I have no idea. Generally, people are not sheep, except for when they are.

I love this place now, but I'm very grateful that I didn't find it when I was much younger, or that I didn't evne have the opportunity to hang out in a place like this with other writers.

Mostly, I was hanging around people who didn't read much, who thought very little of what I wrote, and who made fun of me for it. It didnt' stop me writing, it just focused me a little.

I don't know. I just see too many young writers (I equate young and new writers together because they're both a bit impressionable, regardless of actual age) who are too worried about how their writing shapes up against what other people tell them it should shape up as.

This does not mean that if you write a free-association piece of writing and it's utter crap, and I tell you so, you have the right to say "It's art and you're oppressing my ability to grow!" Or rather, it means that you do have the right to say that, but you're an idiot. Being told your writing really stinks is part of growing as a writer too.

[engmajor2005]

Young writers (artists, musicians, actors, politicians, scientists, fry cooks, etc. etc.) have always been afraid of breaking the rules. That's because they actually think that there ARE rules; it's not until you learn that there is no such things as rules as there are things that work and things that don't that you feel comfortable "breaking the rules."

The Internet can easily do what you, PeeDee, have presented as doing. But it can also just as easily shatter the illusions of rules all that quicker. With all the blogs, ezines, and online publications out there, writers young and old can experience all different forms of writing. By extension, they get to see writers breaking the rules all the time, encouraging them to do so.

[PeeDee]

[quote=Delarege]
I can recall first hearing of the World Wide Web on the Local Network (We used phone lines and modems) in the late eighties, referred to (and with a laugh) as "internet with pictures". SO, we have been subjected to misinformation a lot longer than many think. :)
As for today and the misinformation highway, I think CT11 is right saying we can get misinformation from anywhere. Experience will eventually settle the questions and we are all going to believe what we believe, regardless. I don't think the internet is going to be the end of literature as we know it. I find it a great tool. The first thing you need to learn though, you have to cross check the information you get. I recall learning that in 4th grade; "List your resources and use more than one."
quote]

Two points. First, of course misinformation predates the internet. By ages and ages and ages. And if it didn't, I wouldnt' have wonderful books like "How to Lie with statistics" on my shelf.

Second point: The "list your resources and use more than one" is the one I'm worried is damaged by (though I hate the phrase) modern media. If you're writing a fantasy and your sources are Lord of the Rings movies, a Dungeons & Dragons module book, and then the internet...

...you're going to have wonderful information, you're going to write a strong and powerful story full of interesting and accurate details. OR...

...you write a book which sounds like a movie, complete with instructions for how the camera is moving, not a proper viewpoint, and no solid research so that even in the rain, you're not covering your bows and strings.

I don't know if I've made my point, my original one or any of my other points, clear while I've been talking here. I have this thing bothering me in my head, I don't know if it's coming across properly, or if I sound like I'm harbingering the doom of literature because of The Evil Internet. I'm not, honest.

[RTH]

If the internet weren't a useful tool, no one would be spending all this time here. Since we're a traditionally isolated bunch of workers, it's been a tremendous boon to market research, etc., as it enables us to pool our resources & knowledge to produce info that you couldn't easily access twenty years ago.

BUT it's important to note its limitations. It seems to have spawned the notion that everybody's opinion on every single subject is equally valid -- which of course is nonsense. But for a new writer, it's also potentially dangerous.

This, combined with the sheer volume of garbage means that unless you already know what you're doing, there's a good chance you're going to get garbage (or be paralyzed, as PD first said).

So, how valid is my opinion, you may ask (probably snark-ily)? :Shrug:

[PeeDee]

This, combined with the sheer volume of garbage means that unless you already know what you're doing, there's a good chance you're going to get garbage (or be paralyzed, as PD first said).

Empty calories. Garbage in, garbage out. I guess I just summarized myself nicely.

[PeeDee]

I know I'm in trouble when I start replying after myself. (unless someone replies before I'm done typing, and then frabjus day, caloo calaay, he chortled in his glee...)

Another danger of the internet, potentially a particular problem with sites like this is: For a young writer who is just struggling to get some semblence of discipline going, a web-site like this -- fascinating, interesting, funny, and enjoyable -- is both a boon and a bane. It's so easy to while away the hours here, but if you're just starting and you havne't built the discipline to realize that spending your writing time here is as bad as spending it playing video games...then you can waste away your time and write nothing at all.

The whole internet, to an extent, is like this.

It doesn't just apply to young writers either, though I think they may be most vulnerable to it (no, I don't even know if I think that). This bit didn't occur to me and bother me until a couple of days ago.

I had nothing to do but sit in the apartment we are moving out of. I brought my lap top to play music while I cleaned. I finished cleaning and had six hours (!!) to kill 'till my wife would come by and get me. I didn't want to walk, because it's too cold for the laptop.

So, I sat in the corner of an empty and silent apartment with no itnernet at all, and I wrote. I wrote thirty pages of text. My arms were in agony.

I realize that a chunk of why I did this was that I was in an empty apartment. I realize that a young writer without the internet will perhaps be distracted by everything else around him that gravity is currently tugging on. that's inevitable.

I'm saying, I think, that the internet is more dangerous because it gets deeper and more interesting the longer you goof around on it. I can easily lose hours and hours on AW, and I've built up some solid disciplines that I'm happy with over the years. Sometimes, it's so intruiging that, like when I had to finish my novel, I have to get someone to ban me from the forums.

See whut I mean?

[WildScribe]

Another danger of the internet, potentially a particular problem with sites like this is: For a young writer who is just struggling to get some semblence of discipline going, a web-site like this -- fascinating, interesting, funny, and enjoyable -- is both a boon and a bane. It's so easy to while away the hours here, but if you're just starting and you havne't built the discipline to realize that spending your writing time here is as bad as spending it playing video games...then you can waste away your time and write nothing at all.


Experience doesn't make this go away...

[Akuma]

I know I'm in trouble when I start replying after myself. (unless someone replies before I'm done typing, and then frabjus day, caloo calaay, he chortled in his glee...)

Another danger of the internet, potentially a particular problem with sites like this is: For a young writer who is just struggling to get some semblence of discipline going, a web-site like this -- fascinating, interesting, funny, and enjoyable -- is both a boon and a bane. It's so easy to while away the hours here, but if you're just starting and you havne't built the discipline to realize that spending your writing time here is as bad as spending it playing video games...then you can waste away your time and write nothing at all.
...
I'm saying, I think, that the internet is more dangerous because it gets deeper and more interesting the longer you goof around on it. I can easily lose hours and hours on AW, and I've built up some solid disciplines that I'm happy with over the years. Sometimes, it's so intruiging that, like when I had to finish my novel, I have to get someone to ban me from the forums.

See whut I mean?

While, yes, AW can easily sidetrack even the best of us, I find it a tremendous resource for those days when I feel uninspired. Thirty minutes to an hour of reading, say, what other people have done gets me fired up and I'll snap my AW umbilical cord and actually write.

Speaking of which, stop distracting me...;)

[WildScribe]

I've been trying to "dive in" to my novel for two hours. I don't even have the file open yet. Darn it.

[farfromfearless]

If a young writer truly wishes to write - they will. Terribly a first, unless you are one of the gift few, but time and experience (and a few bitter doses of reality) will make them better writers. Writing, like carpentry, is a craft; an art in many cases and the more time you invest into your craft the better the results. The interscrape is not going to disappear any time soon, until then, we're going to see a lot more writers with less confidence (an knowledge) in their work and skills. It is a good thing in a way: good writing shows, excellent writing shines, the rest is all a murky backdrop.

[victoriastrauss]

Good points, Pete. Like you, I started writing way before I went online, and also before I knew there were how-to-write books. I wanted to write something, so I did. I've often been grateful for my total ignorance. If I'd questioned myself at the start the way I do now, I don't think I'd ever have written anything.

One of the symptoms of Internet dependence I see is the tendency for people to be unwilling to do their own research. They'd rather go online, ask a question and get the information spoonfed to them--which, of course, carries the risk of getting bad or inaccurate information and being unable to tell the difference because they have no knowledge base.

- Victoria

[Rolling Thunder]

And yet, without the Internet and the wonders it provides, such as the joy of collaborating with ones peers, 'The Pete & Carrie Variety Hour' would have remained in darkness, never brought into existence of written word.

A humorous work that put forth its own voice, easily published in a format for others to enjoy and admire.

That, in itself, is the achievement writers strive for. That is what the Internet and AW are capable of inspiring. The spark is there, waiting for one to read it. To embrace it. To learn from it. To write it.

Add to that the other nuances we've come to love and..........

Pfffft.
Okay, I'm done.
Five bucks.:)

[pepperlandgirl]

See, and that's part of my point. When I was a young warthog, I learned my writing by reading books that I loved, and then writing like them, or writing similar to them. Eventually, this turns into a stew and out of that eventually comes a writing voice.

But I was doing this for a lot of years before I came onto the internet. Even when I WAS aware of the internet as a place for writing, I was using it for quite some time before I stumbled upon a group of writers.

Supposing you're a young writer who, with fifty or so friends, wrote fan-fiction for years (I knew a number of people who did, back int he day) and eventually, you all try to write "real" fiction, only to find yourself hideously outclassed. It's because during your formative years, you've been feeding off each other's fanfiction work instead of the works of published authors.



Or suppose you're a young writer who, with the person you wrote fanfic with for years, eventually tried to write "real" fiction and got several publishing contracts and interest from one of the biggest publishers in the world? Further suppose that you're a young writer who never would have met your writing partner and best friend without fanfic, and thus would be poorer as a person and as an author?

Writing is writing. Practice is practice. I don't disagree that in many ways, the Internet can be a crutch. I know I pretty much stopped coming here and reading all the zillions of writing blogs when i started getting published, because I just didn't need it in the same way. But at the same time, the Internet, even the evol fan-fiction, is a great nursery-school.

[Zolah]

It's crate-of-writing classes and their crazy standards. If you write so as not to violate any standards, you write so as to generate featureless prose (with no adverbs and no adjectives...for example always showing{ which is insane }). I'm not suggesting that people should not have standards, but that they should develop them based on possibilities and effects not on externally trumped up generalized verbiage that claims to guarantee something or other and is guaranteed by some other indefinite something or other.

Yes! Yes, yes! Adjectives and adverbs are words too! They should be used like ANY OTHER WORDS. And half the people who shove 'Show Don't Tell' down other people's throats don't seem to understand that if you show everything your book will be six times as long as the Barchester Chronicles. Plus, sometimes showing can be clever and witty and fun, like in Terry Pratchett's novels. And what about this terrible thing authorial intrusion? No, no, we mustn't do that, it's dreadful for a reader to become aware of the writer in the story...only, tell that to Neil Gaiman, with his modern bestseller 'Anansi Boys', chockful of authorial intrusion. If I can't blooming well intrude in my own book, where the heck can I?

Learn the rules, love them and respect them - and then do what feels right even if it breaks all of them. Take risks, be experimental, learn through doing. Yes, it may mean your work is unconventional and scary, or even hard to find a publisher for - but anything's better than being boring, surely?

[Del]

There have always been distractions. People that aren't disciplined are going to suffer with or without internet. That said, I too can find myself with too many hours on AW. But I started WWaaaaaayyyy long ago on BBS forums that weren't internet driven. I wasn't long into writing but found the audience that I never would have had otherwise quit encouraging. I wrote stories to post. Those people's pats and pinches put me on a writers road. Without them I would have had no one or few to examine my work. There is no encouragement when you write only for Fred. You need the big audience.

I have to say, I don't think the Web has influenced my actual writing style. I started long a go and my stuff is my stuff, be damned. But what the Web HAS done I could not have found anywhere else. Academically I'm a bust. ADD Adult, illnesses resulting in massive absences...I was never good in school because that was not my method. Me dummy, no recall. But I learn fast through example, I have a keen eye for logic and I can figure out nearly anything mechanical. I was the family TV repairer when I was 12. I could fix nearly anything. But I couldn't remember dates, spelling, identify root words, etc. etc. etc. ...brilliant under achiever. The internet has allowed me to get what I'm looking for fast; information, lists, pictures... I follow my leaning curve and don't have to keep up with anyone. The web is teaching me not writing, but the business of writing. I could have done it without the net. But it would have taken longer. Publishers, agents, scary stuff when the only writing people I have EVER been subjected to are right her at AW. Libraries are cool, except mine is 40 minutes away. I could buy some writing books but I'm on a budget and usually behind in bills.

SCREECHHHH. (stop self from ranting)

People will find their learning curve and the web can give people like me a chance that would have passed them by. I love the web. You just can't use it as the last word and you have to know that you’re not working when you're not working. And it has resulted in a significant improvement in my spelling :D

[Jamesaritchie]

The internet is certainly a wonderful tool for research, for chatting, and sometimes even for learning how to write well. But there is a ton of garbage for every pound of prime rib.

I believe some things never change, and learning how to write well is one of these things. 1. Read everything you can get your hands on. 2. Write every spare moment. 3. Submit what you write.

Someone who does these two things has a very good chance of being published. Someone who doesn't is in a crapshoot.

Beyond this, listening to anyone is fine, but I think the best advice for any given writer will almost always come from whoever that new writer's favorite pro writers may be. If you love theway someone writes novels, and want to write novels much like theirs, then listening to another pro who writes nothing at all like this is probably not wise.

My big problem with the internet is how easy the silly stuff spreads, and how many believe it. "It's not how well you write or tell a story, it's who you know that counts." "Big publishers only buy from famous writers." Or, "Big publishers only want novels that have a guarantee of making the bestseller list." And any version of "New writers just don't stand a chance today." "I would be published, but Madonna/T.O./etc. took my slot." It's all nonsense.

And I hate the pervasiveness of misinformation and outright lies put forth by many self-publishing companies, how easy it is for a scam agent to hook a new writer, and how you can't seem to walk through three pages of the internet without finding another "You Must Hire An Editor. . .preferably me. . .If You Want To Be Published."

I hate the "You, Too, Can Write and Sell a Novel" sites. Especially when they promies you can do it in eleven minutes flat, with a two minute break in the middle.

Of course, I also loathe the internet borne notion that everyone must have beta readers, belong to a critique group, etc. It seems there now is no such thing as a new writer who believes he can actually learn how to write just fine without beta readers and critique groups. And probably better. Nope, someone has to tell that writer when he's getting it right or wrong, what he should do and shouldn't do, why this character is flat, and that character should really be the protagonist, even if that someone couldn't write a grocery list for a man on a hunger strike.

I'm eternally glad the classic writers did not have the internet, and had both an intense willingness to talk about their writing freely, but also enough confidence/ego/ to avoid beta readers and weekly critique group meetings.

I think the internet is a wonderful tool for writers in many ways, but while the starving artist locked in a rundown garret is not appealing to many sensible people, the well-fed writer locked in a comfortable study with no contact to the outside world other than the hundreds or thousands of books lining the walls is still the best way to learn how to write.

[Del]

I must admit, the internet has put me wise to the potential scam. Then, new writers have always been a market.

[J.S Greer]

Peedee made a lot of good points, as all of you have.

The problem with the internet age is that its changed they dynamic.

Go to any writers board(not counting this one) and its a bunch of new "Writers" posting sub par work and patting each other on the back for it. Offer a critique, or any feedback other than "Wow, thats amazing!" and they get extremely defensive rather than looking at the work and trying to see it from a different perspective.

The internet allows anyone to carve a little space out, post thier feelings, and shout it all to the world. The pronblem is, that before most do so, they dont take time to learn nor do they keep learning to make themselves better.

The self publishing issue only serves to aggrivate the issue.

"I believe some things never change, and learning how to write well is one of these things. 1. Read everything you can get your hands on. 2. Write every spare moment. 3. Submit what you write."

That's another good point. (2 posts above)

Zolah-
Yes! Yes, yes! Adjectives and adverbs are words too! They should be used like ANY OTHER WORDS. And half the people who shove 'Show Don't Tell' down other people's throats don't seem to understand that if you show everything your book will be six times as long as the Barchester Chronicles. Plus, sometimes showing can be clever and witty and fun, like in Terry Pratchett's novels. And what about this terrible thing authorial intrusion?

True, but knowing when to use them is the key. Show dont tell is an invaluable rule. Sure you have to tell from time to time, but as a general rule, if you teel more often than not, its not really getting you into the story. Moderation is the key.

Taking risks is a great thing. You must however use it as a trial and error tool, and be willing to accept what does and doesnt work.

[WildScribe]

I actually stopped looking to associate with other writers online because of the obnoxious back patting. I was on poets.com for a while, but it became really stupid. Anyway, I found this place by accident, and was glad that I did.

[Higgins]

Taking risks is a great thing. You must however use it as a trial and error tool, and be willing to accept what does and doesnt work.

The key to knowing what does and doesn't work is having some effect you are aiming for. Not having any idea what effect you want to have on the reader is a problem as fundamental to anything else in making writing good or bad....and it is something that no amount of knowing "what to avoid" is going to help.

If the effect you are aiming for is satisfying some group and its set of standards, then you are never going to know what works in terms of writing, you are only going to know in terms of what some group tells you and you will never figure out anything for yourself.

[PeeDee]

1)Good points, Pete. Like you, I started writing way before I went online, and also before I knew there were how-to-write books. I wanted to write something, so I did. I've often been grateful for my total ignorance. If I'd questioned myself at the start the way I do now, I don't think I'd ever have written anything.

2)One of the symptoms of Internet dependence I see is the tendency for people to be unwilling to do their own research. They'd rather go online, ask a question and get the information spoonfed to them--which, of course, carries the risk of getting bad or inaccurate information and being unable to tell the difference because they have no knowledge base.

- Victoria

1) I certainly wouldn't have written much of anything, if I started off with the internet and all these resources available to me. I like that I started out with nothing but some cheesy ideas, a pencil, and some paper. I was doing pretty good on a typewriter, and then on a computer, and then much later, on the internet. If I'd had a world of people around me analyzing and chattering, I would have left. It's just how I am. These days, I'm entrenched enough in what I do that the only thing I'm likely to do is get on with it.

2) This also bothers me no end. I will use the internet not to do my research, but to point me in the right direction to start my research. I still immensely prefer using books, honest to god books, for my research work.

When I was at the library, fact-checking a couple of names for my last manuscript, I ran into a book on roman history that was on the same shelf as the book I needed. I flipped through it, because I'm a sucker for ancient history, and as I was flipping, I discovered all sorts of nifty tidbits that gave birth to my next novel. I wouldn't have had that if I'd googled and gotten my answer right away.

Then again, if it's a minor fact, or a trusted web-site, I don't mind trusting it. I'm not anti-internet, I'm not completely luddite.

...

I think what partially got me going on all this was that last week, I tried to hunt down an old friend. My only contact with him was through fanfiction, something which I happily did for a number of years. As I was looking for a way to get in touch with him, I dug through all sorts of fan-fiction sites, trying to track down the dusty remnants of the sites we'd used to congregate at.

(No luck, if you were wondering, I haven't found him and have given up.)

One thing I noticed was the sheer volume of some people's fanfiction, and the sheer horrid level of it. I don't like the phrase, but "Back In My Day," fanfiction was actually a pretty decent thing. The stories weren't literature, but they were readable, they were entertaining, and they were original and compelling works of fiction set in these other universes. I know a couple of writers who went on to happily writing full time, and good for them. They were good.

Then, fanfiction was teaching these kids (myself included) not how to tell a story, but how to entertain and to hold an audience, which I think is very important.

Now, I don't think fanfiction is even teaching kids how to complete a sentence.

The reason for this (is probably something else entirely) is that when most of us started, we did what I did: we were alone and offline for a long time, writing away, and by the time we came into the internet, we had been slogging through our million words of crap for a number of years already. God knows I had.

But if a kid these days starts his million words of crap and puts the first 1,000 words of it online and gets people from MySpace, or what not, who says "Hey dUd3, ur story rox some1 shuldpublish u!!!11" (or whatever) then with the praise rolling in, what reason does this kid have to improve? HIs stories are garnering praise. Why should he improve?

When I showed my first story, tentatively, to some of the neighborhood kids, one of them got on his bike, took my story, and threw it in the lake. I spent twenty minutes fishing the soggy pages out.

I think that did me a world of good more than posting my first story on the internet ever would have done.

[Carrie in PA]

And yet, without the Internet and the wonders it provides, such as the joy of collaborating with ones peers, 'The Pete & Carrie Variety Hour' would have remained in darkness, never brought into existence of written word.

A humorous work that put forth its own voice, easily published in a format for others to enjoy and admire.

That, in itself, is the achievement writers strive for. That is what the Internet and AW are capable of inspiring. The spark is there, waiting for one to read it. To embrace it. To learn from it. To write it.

Add to that the other nuances we've come to love and..........

Pfffft.
Okay, I'm done.
Five bucks.:)

Allow me to point out RT's genius. :ROFL:


I'm not sure how I think of it. Is it any more of a crutch than the stacks of how-to books I bought? It's more accessible, to be sure, but I think as a writer grows and matures in his/her own writing skin, assuming they are growing and getting better, then these tools just become something to be utilized.

I can't really speak to fanfiction, because I (preparing for ridicule) really haven't a clue what it is. I assume it's when you write stories that are spinoffs of shows/books?

Hopefully it will remain difficult to be published, thus keeping the truly crappy writers who aren't growing or learning on the bottom, and those with talent and drive can make it out of the slush piles and succeed.

[Mom'sWrite]

Hi everyone

My name is Carol and I'm a paralyzed writer.

My paralysis started in the fifth grade, long before the Internet came to town, probably before Wozniak and Jobs got jiggy wit the bits. I wrote a fairy tale as an assignment for English. The teacher loved it so much, she read it over the P.A. system to the whole school. The worst part of it was the end when she announced who the author was. My brother, who was in the seventh grade, immediately disavowed any family connection to me. Kids hurled hurtful barbs at me for weeks.

I'm a much, much, much older kid now, but somehow I never really got the hang of putting myself out there. In some ways I don't care and I really want to get that constructive criticism, but there's always a fragile moment just after I post. In fact, I just posted my first poem last night and haven't contributed anything to SYW yet. It's my goal for the new year. I'm gonna just park my ass in SYW and show y'all what I got.

The internet hasn't really helped the situation much. On the Internet, the exceptionally talented and the dismally inept can sit side by side. Even with all this lovely anonymity, the pressure is still intense to get it right the first time. On a message board such as this, it doesn't take long to know who possesses how much natural ability or talent, nor does it take long for the paralyzed writer to conclude that those upper levels of ability are beyond reach. I'm not sure if it's really an issue of too much available information or just the ubiquitous pressure to perform on a larger scale.

Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and erase all doubt.

[heatheringemar]

I do think there is a danger out there for young writers--because I've seen it. It's all too easy to get caught up in the "dos" and "don'ts" to the point that it becomes hard to write without self-editing.

I'm battling that monster every day. (Of course, part of it could be that I've been writing academic essays for too long too.... hmm....)

But, like everything, the internet has its good points too. It's really a matter of how you look at it.

[zenofeller]

this is delicious in so many ways...

earlier this morning, When I was a young writer, the internet hadn't occured to me as something related to my writing.

ou sont...

[Shadow_Ferret]

Funny thing. When I started out writing, I had a manual typewriter, paper, carbon sheets and the 1972 Writer's Market. The info I used from the Writer's Market? The section on how to format my manuscript and then the addresses of the places I was sending my stories to.

That was it. I had no beta readers. No critique groups. Didn't bother with the "advice columns." Just the fanatical desire to write and try to see my name in print.

I submitted like crazy and a stack of rejection letters grew.

Now I have the internet with a ton of information, right, wrong, indifferent, access to beta readers, critiques, all giving me different opinions and because of all the contradicting information I haven't submitted a story in several years.

I take that back. I've submitted one story a couple months ago.

But still, writer's paralysis is choking me.

[PeeDee]

this is delicious in so many ways...

earlier this morning,

ou sont...

Er. What?

Ferret: That's more or less what I'm worried about. 1972 was before me, but the principle applies more or less the same.

[Oliveman]

YES! Your point is absolutely on track! Please stop worrying about it to the masses... no, write! Then, once written, settle your uncertainties with readers you trust deeply, or with writers who have the experience to know that it is worth experimenting.

Recently I asked what was the best way to do something? Plenty of people had their opinions, but I took the best information from it, and did not get paralyzed, but invigorated. This is because in the slew of opinions out there, there is truth, ESPECIALLY from writers. You have to trust your instinct though. Make something revolutionary! Make a splash! GO FOR IT!

The internet is great for contacting people halfway around the world (either direction), but everything that is written is not gospel truth. Everyone brings their own perspectives to the table, and when you're communicating simply by writing, some of the intent is lost, and information is taken in the wrong fashion or simply too seriously. Don't fall into the trap of trusting everyone else. Trusting experience. Instead, don't dawdle around asking what should or should not be done, but rush with steady mind ahead to meet the challenges of your own making, and fulfilling what from imagination, springs. Other people will be there to help you, back you up, and give advice. Never fear. Just don't ever stop trusting yourself, since you are, in fact, the one writing.

[SomethingCatchy]

I think now disipline matters more than it did before. There's more distractions - video games, television, this here interweb thing. Some of the people who might have written fifty years ago wouldn't be writing now. Don't get me wrong though - they wouldn't have been very good writers fifty years ago either.

The one thing that I think is hurting more writers than anything is a lack of practice. You go online, find the articles, and read all sorts of advice - but you don't end up actually writing. Reading is not writing. Reading can help with writing - to a point.

It's like teaching someone to skate. Sure, I can explain the fundamentals to you, and give you some tips, but until you're out on the ice and moving around - you won't be able to skate.

Also, I've noticed that out of everything I read before writing my practice novel - most of it I didn't remember, or didn't make sense. Now that I've sat down and banged something out, it's like a veil has been lifted. Advice makes a lot more sense when you're able to connect it with something.

Learn as much as you can - but be willing to throw it all away.

[J.S Greer]

Er. What?

Ferret: That's more or less what I'm worried about. 1972 was before me, but the principle applies more or less the same.

"ou sont" means "I love you " In Swahili. Isnt that nice of him, loving a commoner like you? :)

[PeeDee]

"ou sont" means "I love you " In Swahili. Isnt that nice of him, loving a commoner like you? :)

I was going to hurl myself upon my pen, but now there is light in my life. I shall keep on trucking, to put it poetically.

Of course, I knew what it meant. Swahili is my native tongue, you know. It's all we speak in Louisiana... :)

[arkady]

Go to any writers board(not counting this one) and its a bunch of new "Writers" posting sub par work and patting each other on the back for it. Offer a critique, or any feedback other than "Wow, thats amazing!" and they get extremely defensive rather than looking at the work and trying to see it from a different perspective.

Or the opposite effect, in which the "feedback" is more like a feeding frenzy, in which all the participants have a contest to see who can savage the posted work with the sharpest blade of sarcasm. Or screech the loudest about any miscreants who've violated any of the ironclad "rules." (And I must specifically exempt AW from either of the above, since I've gotten some extremely useful and well-thought-out feedback here).

The internet is a two-edged sword. On one hand, yes, I do think it's tending to have an intimidatingly homogenizing effect on many new writers (who, as PeeDee correctly points out, aren't necessarily young writers). And yet on the other hand, it certainly has simplified some of the operations involved in the submission process, including weeding out the scammers from the legitimate agents and simply finding agents to whom to submit in the first place. So although it's making submitting less of a hit-and-miss operation, I'm less certain that it's actually having much uplifting effect upon the writing.

Then there are the pages and pages and pages of contradictory query-letter "advice," but don't get me started on that...

[JimmyB27]

At the end of the day, like any tool, you have to use the Internet correctly. If you go in well aware that not everything you read will be accurate, and that people's opinions are usually just that, and not facts, you should be just fine.

[bsolah]

To me, the internet is a distraction. I spend time surfing when I could be writing. Obviously, this has a lot to do with me not being motivated enough to write at the present time. And to be fair, if there was no net, I'd be procrastinating in another way.

The internet does have its benefits. Writing is a lonely profession and I'm sure many writers would've found it all too much without the support from writers around the world whom the could connect with thanks the the web.

[Arkie]

I recommend any youngster serious about writing stay off message boards including this one. There is far too much erroneous information passed back and forth. Everyone wants to be an expert that results in exchanges like: "I'm new at this. How do I find an agent?" Resident expert: "I'm not published and I don't have an agent, but here's what I do."

All a writer needs is a supply of #2 pencils (They have their own delete button), and a stack of legal pads. Dedication is a must, talent a plus.

[JimmyB27]

...There is far too much erroneous information passed back and forth...
All a writer needs is a supply of #2 pencils (They have their own delete button), and a stack of legal pads. Dedication is a must, talent a plus.

And what makes your information not erroneous? ;)

[PeeDee]

I recommend any youngster serious about writing stay off message boards including this one. There is far too much erroneous information passed back and forth. Everyone wants to be an expert that results in exchanges like: "I'm new at this. How do I find an agent?" Resident expert: "I'm not published and I don't have an agent, but here's what I do."

I don't quite advocate that new writers stay off the internet, or message boards. After all, I have no idea how I would have turned out had I had the internet from the get-go. Maybe fine.

Part of why it seems better to start writing without the internet is, I suspect, a bit of "those were the good old days" creeping through, most of which is generally nonsensical. I'm happy for the internet, and for communities like this now.

I think what I'm suggesting is that new writers -- hell, established writers -- need to be very careful how much time and effort they spend on the internet, and what it's for. It's like watching TV when you're a kid and having your mother tell you that you can only watch an hour of television a day, and not during the daytime, when you have to go play outside instead.

Mostly, it's better for you than if you got to just sit in front of the glass teat all day long.

[WackAMole]

"I recommend any youngster serious about writing stay off message boards including this one. "

I just have to disagree with this. I had been writing for years when I finally found the net and writers groups. Before that time, every submission I made was thwarted by my lack of knowledge. I live in a small community and there just arent that many writers around.

When I found an online writer's group I began to understand terms like POV, show and tell etc. I grew more in my writing in the one year I'd been online than in all the years I had camped the library trying to learn how to write and write well.

I think if you understand that all advice must be measured and considered, not immediately implemented, you can grow incredibly as a writer. Having others review your work that are familiar with the ins and outs to give u advice is an INVALUABLE experience that often cannot be found outside the net (for those of us living in remote areas). It was 15 years of writing before I found the net. It made a huge difference in my writing.

[PeeDee]

This is true, and this is why communities like this one are an absolute godsend. MOSTLY. If one isn't careful, one becomes bogged down and paralyzed from all the "do this, don't do that, this is hot, this is dead on the page." Paralyzed, like I pointed out.

Or else, the other problem is, you can easily lose a whole day just chattering and reading on these forums, and that includes your writing time. That's not a young/new writer's experience. Hell, I had to have myself banned just to finish my novel, after all, didn't I?

[WackAMole]

This is true, and this is why communities like this one are an absolute godsend. MOSTLY. If one isn't careful, one becomes bogged down and paralyzed from all the "do this, don't do that, this is hot, this is dead on the page." Paralyzed, like I pointed out.

Or else, the other problem is, you can easily lose a whole day just chattering and reading on these forums, and that includes your writing time. That's not a young/new writer's experience. Hell, I had to have myself banned just to finish my novel, after all, didn't I?

LOL you have been banned too?

Yes I know what you mean. It's easy to get lost here, but also i'm at work..my time at home tends to be spent writing stuff, even if its just meaningless dribble or writing in my journal.

[PeeDee]

LOL you have been banned too?

Yes I know what you mean. It's easy to get lost here, but also i'm at work..my time at home tends to be spent writing stuff, even if its just meaningless dribble or writing in my journal.

I've started doing that too, and I think it's important. I do most of my rounds here while I'm at work. then, at home, I check the two or three threads that I'm following closely and spend the rest of my time getting my writing done.

[JeanneTGC]

I'll echo whoever (posts ago) said that writers write. Young, old, in-between, if you are a writer, you write or you think about writing.

I learned a good lesson when I took Sales in college. The first thing the professor said to us was, "You can read our texbook from cover-to-cover, never miss a day of class, and get straight A's in the course, but until you have actually gone out and SOLD something, then you have no idea of HOW to sell anything."

He was right, and it applies to writing (and any other endeavor). Young writers, like any other kinds of writers, are subject to distractions just as they have always been. The distractions of the day may change, but they are still plentiful enough that if someone wants to navel-gaze instead of write, then they will find a way.

Life is full of "white noise". You learn to deal with it or you don't. I don't worry about any writers getting too much or too little information. Everyone goes at their own pace. I didn't write for 20 years because I was TOLD that I had to outline and outlining kills my creativity. I just thought about writing for those 20 years and when the voices finally got too loud, I just wrote. And wrote. And wrote.

If someone is discouraged from writing because of all the rules and the internet and all the whatnots, God deliver them from the submissions and rejections process. I feel like all the conflicting "you have to do it this way's" that I have heard and either accpeted or ignored just helped toughen me up to where I can handle the (far more than I'd like) rejections with a modicum of grace.

Writers write, and most of them write whether or not they have permission to do so. Which is as it should be.

[PeeDee]

There is a reason that I'm being particularly hard on the internet and on writers' forums here. Come to that, i'll be just as hard on computers, too.

The reason is this:

With the existence of a computer, the wall which seperates a potential young writer from a distraction (the internet, the writers' forum, minesweeper, his address book, whatever) is paper thin. It's not even the width of a molecule.

When you begin writing, you are told that within your fine and private place, you should have no television and nothing to distract you from writing. This is true. The thing about using a computer is, it's the same as bringing the television into the room and setting the remote control down right next to your arm. the temptation is there, is only a click away.

If the computer you write on has a video game on it, there's danger. An internet access can be sudden death. E-mail, certainly.

If you write with a typewriter in a closed off room, then in order to be distracted properly, you have to get up, go out of the room, open and close the door, and be distracted. With a computer, the distraction is right there.

Luddite? Yeah, I suppose I am. I write with a computer, but not always. I'm very protective of my ability to write in different mediums which are not a computer and not MS Word. I think it's important that I can write on a type writer, by hand on paper, on the computer...whatever.

When writing comes hard and distractions come easy, I take this old laptop of mine which has no internet (or, a notebook and a pen) and I go sit on top of my washing machine, in my home's little laundry room. I put my back against the wall and I have the door closed, and I write.

I think it's the willingness to do that which is important to young writers. Or new writers, if you see what I mean.

[TwentyFour]

I'm behind times...I only got the internet about two years ago. I knew it was around, I knew where to find it, I know what was on it...but I did not own a golden pass to it. I finally signed up to the net, got hooked on chat for a few months, weined from it, then headed back to my writing. It is a good place to go, but not the number one I use.

[farfromfearless]

With the existence of a computer, the wall which seperates a potential young writer from a distraction (the internet, the writers' forum, minesweeper, his address book, whatever) is paper thin. It's not even the width of a molecule.

When you begin writing, you are told that within your fine and private place, you should have no television and nothing to distract you from writing. This is true. The thing about using a computer is, it's the same as bringing the television into the room and setting the remote control down right next to your arm. the temptation is there, is only a click away.

If the computer you write on has a video game on it, there's danger. An internet access can be sudden death. E-mail, certainly.


PeeDee, I agree (to an extent) with you on many of your points and I've run into those particular walls myself. I write on my laptop as well, and for a while I would find myself distracted by any number of things literally at my fingertips - it's quite obvious that others do as well - and it distracted me from doing the things I *should* be doing.

I ended up making some sacrifices in order to regain my focus; I gave up gaming and minimized my extra-curricular design work and poured all that energy into writing instead. I still browse (like now for instance) but I do my best to enforce some sort of limit on that. I guess what I'm saying is that distractions come in all shapes and sizes, the internet and related crap just happens to be the most current distraction.

It's up to the writer to have some discipline if they expect to finish their projects. If it takes closing yourself off in a laundry room, fine; if it means pulling out a pad and paper, well and good - but none of that is worth a damn without discipline. It's a lesson that needs to be learned the hard way.

[PeeDee]

Of course. I'm not trying to sound like some guy who's raving against computers and the internet or anything. Honest. I'm just talking about what bothers me, and trying to figure out why it bothers me. I don't want anyone going "I agree! Death to computers!" because I love my computer. I really do.

[farfromfearless]

Go to any writers board(not counting this one) and its a bunch of new "Writers" posting sub par work and patting each other on the back for it. Offer a critique, or any feedback other than "Wow, thats amazing!" and they get extremely defensive rather than looking at the work and trying to see it from a different perspective.


I had the misfortune of experiencing this recently. I posted some crits regarding a young "writer's" work - quite young, I think she was 17 - and her work was atrocious (Misspellings from the first to last sentence, next to no punctuation and IM-like sentences: "Hi how r u?" <-- Do ppl rly msg like dat?). Needless to say almost all comments relating to her work were nothing but praise. You can imagine what kind of feedback I received regarding my crit? Needless to say I joined critters.org instead.

[JeanneTGC]

When you begin writing, you are told that within your fine and private place, you should have no television and nothing to distract you from writing. This is true. The thing about using a computer is, it's the same as bringing the television into the room and setting the remote control down right next to your arm. the temptation is there, is only a click away.

When writing comes hard and distractions come easy, I take this old laptop of mine which has no internet (or, a notebook and a pen) and I go sit on top of my washing machine, in my home's little laundry room. I put my back against the wall and I have the door closed, and I write.

I am going to present the other side of this case.

Being in a quiet, lonely place works for you -- it works for a lot of people. But I have to have music -- ROCK music, and different bands for different pieces -- going or I can't write a thing. I don't care if the TV is on, if we have a houseful of people, if the dogs and cats are all crowded in my little "cage" with me or not. I thrive in the noise. When it's silent it's too easy for my mind to wander off onto bizarre tangents that stop me from writing.

I also consider forums like this a "warm up". I like to write and get into a flow. Does it stop me from working on my actual writing pieces? No. It's given me ideas, incentive, and a place where I can feel that others both understand and are going through the same challenges. I can get this fellowship without having to leave my computer, or my WIP, meaning that I can do MORE on my WIP.

I hate to write longhand to the point where I won't do it. I have a Palm and a keyboard for when I am away from my PC and traveling without a laptop.

Without my computer, the internet, and places like AW, I would NOT have made 42 submissions in less than 2 months. I would NOT have found markets I never knew existed and therefore would NOT have had 2 short pieces accepted.

For every person for whom the advances of technology has made things a bit more challenging there is another for whom the world has opened up. I am one of the latter, and you will take my computer, my DSL and my internet from me when you can pry them from my cold, dead fingers.

Everyone is different, everyone has to find their own path. Whether or not someone is or allows themselves to be distracted by ANYthing is, under most circumstances, their choice. As with drinking, smoking, drugs, sex, religion, or politics, after a certain point in time, people will make their own choices for how they want to spend their creative time, for better or for worse.

[PeeDee]

*sigh* Again, I wasn't talking about ME personally, nor anyone personally. I don't need silence, a quiet room, or anything else. Sometimes, I go write in the Mall's food court, which is thunderously loud. Sometimes, I sit next to my wife on the couch while she watches TV and I write. Sometimes, I hang with friends and while they're playing games, I scribble a piece of a story on some paper.

I'm talking about the variety of new writer which is likely to be distracted by the internet, the computer, the TV, all these things, the variet of writer which DOES need a quiet place to write. The beginning writer who has yet to learn how to build proper barriers, or the more experienced writer who is made distractable by a difficult piece of work.

I'm also not suggesting the death of computers, the internet, listening to music, socializing, or anything else. I'm not saying you should not be on writer's forums, I'm not saying you have to abandon the internet. I'm not saying anything of the sort.

I was merely pointing out a potential series of problems that could befall a young writer because of the unchanging presence of the internet and writer's groups. And in further posts, I was musing on the various things which this thread had brought to mind.

Honest. I want nothing to change. I like the internet and the writers' forums, and it's not my job (nor my interest) to dictate how things should be for new writers. They can sort that out themselves. They are, as a rule, thinking creatures after all. They'll get there, in the end.

[JeanneTGC]

I was merely pointing out a potential series of problems that could befall a young writer because of the unchanging presence of the internet and writer's groups. And in further posts, I was musing on the various things which this thread had brought to mind.

Ahhh...then to quote Emily Litella...never mind! (SNL used to be funny, remember?)

[PeeDee]

Ahhh...then to quote Emily Litella...never mind! (SNL used to be funny, remember?)

That's a'cuse they used to have "comedians" on the show. Also, "writers."

Now, they have frat boys. And Kenan. Who should have stayed with Kell.

*hmph*

[JeanneTGC]

That's a'cuse they used to have "comedians" on the show. Also, "writers."

Now, they have frat boys. And Kenan. Who should have stayed with Kell.

*hmph*

And no jokes. And no funny. But sometimes good musical guests. Not always, but sometimes.

I miss Mister Bill and Spud Beer. And Gumby. But I don't really miss Joe Piscipo...

[PeeDee]

"one ringy dingy! two ringy dingy! three....."

Party on Wayne! Party on Garth!

what is love? baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more....

"And welcome back to...Celebrity Jeopardy. Joining me today are Sean Connory. Calista Flockheart. And Nicholas Cage."

Not to mention when David Spade did the weekend update. It was hilarious.

[JeanneTGC]

"one ringy dingy! two ringy dingy! three....."

Party on Wayne! Party on Garth!

what is love? baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more....

"And welcome back to...Celebrity Jeopardy. Joining me today are Sean Connory. Calista Flockheart. And Nicholas Cage."

Not to mention when David Spade did the weekend update. It was hilarious.

I'm soooo old...

"Noogie, noogie, noogie!"

Rosanne Rosannadanna

You want Pepsi? No, I'd like a Coke. No Coke, Pepsi! Cheeseburger, cheeseburger, fries!

Jane, you ignorant slut.

And, of course, the bees...good times...good times. Of course, during those times I was out on dates and so only saw the first run seasons in reruns, but still, good times.

[PeeDee]

[quote=JeanneTGC]
"You want Pepsi? No, I'd like a Coke. No Coke, Pepsi! Cheeseburger, cheeseburger, fries!"


God bless John Belushi. May the Elwood Blues rest in peace.

(or was he Jake? Joliet Jake Blues? I can't remember. I'm going to bed.)

[JeanneTGC]

[quote=JeanneTGC]
"You want Pepsi? No, I'd like a Coke. No Coke, Pepsi! Cheeseburger, cheeseburger, fries!"


God bless John Belushi. May the Elwood Blues rest in peace.

(or was he Jake? Joliet Jake Blues? I can't remember. I'm going to bed.)

He was Jake. Dan Ackroyd was Elwood. Carrie Fischer was hilarious.

It's dark and we're wearing sunglasses. (Off to bed, too...nostaligia only glows warm for so long...)

[Inkdaub]

Knock knock.

Who is it?

Telegram...

[J.S Greer]

Knock knock.

Who is it?

Telegram...

Candygram...

Landshark.:tongue

[JeanneTGC]

Candygram...

Landshark.:tongue

How did I forget the Landshark routine?!?

I was tired...that is my only excuse.

[RTH]

Dan Akroyd's best was the "Bag o' Glass" sketch... :D

And who remembers the tender moments? Like Steve Martin & Gilda Radner dancing? Or, for the holidays, that black & white number with Phil Hartmann & Jan Hooks?

I haven't bothered to tune in to NBC Saturdays since Dana Carvey left... :(

[JeanneTGC]

The Bass-O-Matic!