Should "black books" be shelved separately? [Archive]

aruna

12-10-2006, 10:38 AM

Browsing Galleycat this am I came across this titbit:

Check out the front page of today's Wall Street Journal, as Jeffrey Trachtenberg considers the question of where to shelve African-American fiction writers: "in African-American departments, a move that often helps nurture writers, [or] presented alongside other categories, such as general literature, allowing books written by black authors to take their place in publishing's mainstream?" It's a significant question because, at least for the first nine months of this year, black fiction appears to be performing at a better financial pace than the rest of the industry. Over at Bookspan, to take another perspective, the Black Expressions book club is more than 100,000 members ahead of the Book of the Month franchise and is "expected to generate double-digit growth in both its sales and membership through the next few years."

Still, there's the lingering question, as posed by Marva Allen of Harlem's Hue-Man Bookstore: "How many white readers will browse through a book when the front cover depicts black characters and the author is black?" Trachtenberg talks to plenty of writers who accept that initial premise, dealing with it either as ghettoization or the existence of a built-in audience—it's too bad there isn't any significant challenge to the assumption, though, because the success of Walter Mosley or, on a lesser commercial scale, the late Octavia Butler does present some other ways to think about the issue.

I am particularly interested because the MC of my novel - to be shopped to publshers in January - is black, but I don't consider it "black" literature (or worse yet, African-American, as she is NOT American!). Her race is just incidental to the story and really doesn't even come up - just mentioned in passing when she says that her (white) love interest's skin is tanned "almost as dark as hers", and in one other similar remark. Readers will however assume she is non-white.

What do you think of the last part of the above quote: do readers today care about race or skin colour, or - assuming that most readers in the US are white - do they want to read about characters that look like themselves? I don't know anything about the American book market so I am very curious. Obvisouly, my agent thinks it's a mainsteam book but do you think this is risky?

IrishScribbler

12-10-2006, 10:51 AM

Like many things in literature, I think it depends on the book. In situations like yours, where the main character's race is not emphasized (and barely mentioned), it should be considered mainstream fiction. However, if the story deals with issues specific to an ethnic/racial group (or gender, for that matter), it could be useful to separate it from mainstream.

bsolah

12-10-2006, 11:49 AM

PeeDee

12-10-2006, 12:10 PM

My novel has black characters in it. You won't spot 'em unless you're looking for them. They're prominent characters (main character, and main supporting character) but the race is just there. It's not relevant.

I don't really care what your skin color is. Write a story that moves me, that I care about, it doesn't matter to me at all.

I don't like the idea of books being shelved seperately from the rest of the store simply because the author is black, or a character is black. It's still segregation, whether it's against African-Americans (what a clumsy phrase) or for them.

PeeDee

12-10-2006, 12:11 PM

I've heard this argument before - from a white supremacist - who considered black literature inferior.

Obviously this white supremacist (probably a fool) hasn't read any Octavia E. Butler.

Willowmound

12-10-2006, 12:28 PM

I didn't realise white supremacists read at all.

Mein Kampf maybe?

zorasaura

12-10-2006, 12:38 PM

ChaosTitan

12-10-2006, 12:43 PM

Honestly? I have never based my book-buying on the race of the author. That's silly and utter nonsense. The only time I read the "About the Author" blurb is to check and see if this is their first novel or not.

As for the race of the characters? If the book is in my favored genres and the blurb is interesting, I'll read it. I won't put the book back because the main characters are <insert race or ethnic group here>. I will, however, put a book back if the premise doesn't interest me or if the protags don't appeal to me in someway.

I can honestly say that a novel set in South Central LA about an African-American street gang in the middle of a drug war with the LAPD and a rival gang is not something that I will read. Is there a market for it? Absolutely. Just like there are markets for many other kinds of stories that I may not find appealing. Doesn't mean there should be individual sections in the bookstore for them.

If we're going that route, I want all novels dealing with characters and their paranormal abilities shelved together so I can find them more easily.

Birol

12-10-2006, 12:48 PM

The thing is, as a reader, I don't really give an author a thought beyond his/her name. I don't care if they're male or female, or if they are white, black, or covered in purple polka dots. Just give me a decent story, brain candy of the flavor I'm craving at that moment. Even the author's name is something I only fully register if I want to find and read more of what I've just consumed.

Medievalist

12-10-2006, 01:03 PM

Just give me a decent story, brain candy of the flavor I'm craving at that moment. Even the author's name is something I only fully register if I want to find and read more of what I've just consumed.

Addict

Birol

12-10-2006, 01:04 PM

Yes. And?

Medievalist

12-10-2006, 01:09 PM

Takes one to know one?

lmaistros

12-10-2006, 01:33 PM

This is an interesting topic for me because I've worked in the music retail business for many years. This type of segregation (and it is, I think, segregation) has been common in music shops since the dawn of time (or, at least, since the invention of music shops.) As in:

White: Rock/Pop
Black: Soul/R&B

This may seem harmless till you notice that Lenny Kravitz is turning up in Soul/R&B and G.Love and Beastie Boys are finding there way into Rock/Pop.

Personally, I think it's a dangerous thing for people to just accept. Truth is, there's a lot of gray area in music AND literature, as far as race. For music, there's a lot of rock in most soul, and there's a lot of soul in most rock. Same goes for literature. Ultimately, all art is (or should be) about the human experience. The idea of seperation, even polite seperation, cannot serve art well.

I wrote a novel about New Orleans and the early days of jazz. Most of the characters are black. I'm white. So far, no one has mentioned this as a problem. My agent certainly hasn't. But I suspect it will come up sooner or later. I hope I'm wrong. Mostly, I hope it won't matter.

Louie

J.S Greer

12-10-2006, 01:37 PM

I dont see why "Black books" should have any seperate distinction from others.

One of the best goalies in the nhl played in the 80's in Edmonton. He was black. Ive never heard him referred to as "A hell of a black goalie" just "A hell of a goalie."

As an avid NHL fan ive never really cared either, though it is hard not to notice a black player in the NHL, which is predominately white.

Black or white, I'd just love to be known as a good writer.

aruna

12-10-2006, 01:56 PM

Ultimately, all art is (or should be) about the human experience. The idea of seperation, even polite seperation, cannot serve art well.

Louie

Exactly, And I was suprised to find out that there IS such a separation in the US. You don't have that here in the UK. A shelf for African-British authors? Doesn't exist. Not even the term exists. And I believe such a separation according to race is more contributing to racism than helping to eliminate it.

Inkdaub

12-10-2006, 02:18 PM

I don't think it's a good idea and agree with many of the reasons mentioned in this thread. My first thought upon opening this thread and reading the blurb was why 'why would we do that?'

J.S Greer

12-10-2006, 02:20 PM

aruna

12-10-2006, 02:23 PM

Meanwhile, here's the start of the Wall Street Journal article mentioned in the first post. Unfortunately, to read the rest you have to be a subscriber.
Brandon Massey's readers tell him they know just where to find his horror novels -- in the African-American section of bookstores. He's torn about whether or not this is a good thing.

"You face a double-edged sword," says Mr. Massey, 33 years old. "I'm black and I'm published by a black imprint, so I'm automatically slotted in African-American fiction." That helps black readers to find his books easily and has underpinned his career. At the same time, he says, the placement "limits my sales."

Should fiction written by black authors be shelved in African-American departments, a move that often helps ...
• THE FULL WSJ.com ARTICLE IS ONLY AVAILABLE T

Medievalist

12-10-2006, 02:31 PM

You don't have it everywhere, but yes, it is common. It's so common that there are special subject headings in the LOC index. I think that makes sense; I'm less happy about, well, shelving segregtion.

Atlantis

12-10-2006, 02:56 PM

I think its a very stupid idea and racist. I'm a white Aussie girl. I'm planning to write a story about a black Brazilian girl who is blinded when her abusive boyfriend throws acid into her face during an argument. She becomes horribly scarred, both emotionally and phsyically, during the time her body heals she develops a power to "guide" people to their true love with a touch of the hand so they will never have to go through the experience of a failed relationship like she did. She becomes the Virtue of Chasity. I love including black characters in my book. As a fantasy writer, I love to experiment with their features and give them dark chocolate skin with blonde hair and peircing green eyes to make them stand out (most of my characters have powers or unique family lines which explains their strange colouring) I think black skin is very beautiful and exotic. I think its stupid and unnesscary for authors to be split into seperate groups, white and black, or to think that some readers will not want to read a book with a black character on the front. Who the hell cares? As long as the book has a good story, I don't care if the main character is a crippled monkey man with purple hair. It shouldn't matter.

aadams73

12-10-2006, 06:49 PM

I don't care what color the author/characters are; I just care about a good story. Shelve by genre, not by color.

scarletpeaches

12-10-2006, 06:55 PM

I wonder what sort of outcry there would be if some authors said they wanted their books shelved under 'white men's literature'? If it's racist for white people, it's racist for black people.

Neither do I think harping back to the civil rights movement is a valid argument. Surely that was all about getting rid of the belief things should be divided according to colour?

"How many white readers will browse through a book when the front cover depicts black characters and the author is black?"

Sounds like you've got more of a chip on your shoulder about colour than any of them white folks do, dear.

Celia Cyanide

12-10-2006, 07:12 PM

Then why is there a separate category for "women's fiction"?

aadams73

12-10-2006, 07:14 PM

Then why is there a separate category for "women's fiction"?

Is there? This is a serious question, definitely not a snarky one. My local B&N and Borders have "women's fiction" shelved with "fiction and literature" (or some similar wording which escapes me right now.)

Writing Jedi

12-10-2006, 09:11 PM

One of the best goalies in the nhl played in the 80's in Edmonton.

Grant Fuhr! Right on! :Thumbs:

Anyway, I'm another one that is stumped by the seperation by race in literature. I have a friend that is black (actually I am half-black myself but I look white so I would probably never fly in black literature) and she is adamant that the segregation is necessary so that her black readers can find her. Oh well, I just disagree.

aruna

12-10-2006, 09:21 PM

Maybe this was necessary about 10-15 years ago when black writers had difficulties even getting published. And I can see the need for blacks-only publishers THEN. But I believe society has grown up a lot since then and in many ways being ethnic is even cool... which makes the idea of seperate publishers and shelves redundant. It keeps them/us as "other".

JoeEkaitis

12-10-2006, 09:26 PM

There goes the "Oh, puh-leeze!" alarm again.

Medievalist

12-10-2006, 09:26 PM

I am hoping that as more and more writers from other cultures publish that this kind of segregation, of, potentially, ghettoization, will go away. I think it is crucial for all of us to read about characters who are not like us.

James D. Macdonald

12-10-2006, 09:29 PM

"Women's Literature" is a euphemism for Romance and/or "chicklit." There are books written by women that aren't shelved there, because they aren't romances.

I can see a separate section for Urban Fiction/Hip-hop Fiction (so that folks who want it can find it easily), but books that aren't in that marketing category shelved in other places in the bookstore regardless of race (e.g. Samuel R. Delany and Steve Barnes shelved in Science Fiction rather than Black Literature because of what they write, rather than their skin color while writing it).

aruna

12-10-2006, 09:32 PM

I can see a separate section for Urban Fiction/Hip-hop Fiction (so that folks who want it can find it easily), but books that aren't in that marketing category shelved in other places in the bookstore regardless of race (e.g. Samuel R. Delany and Steve Barnes shelved in Science Fiction rather than Black Literature because of what they write, rather than their skin color while writing it).

Yes, because that is shelving according to genre/subject rather than race.

kuatolives

12-10-2006, 10:00 PM

Every day that I wake up, I thank the Gods I don't live in the U.S.

Zolah

12-10-2006, 10:17 PM

I find all this quite funny (as in, puzzling). Here in the UK there is no 'Black' or 'African/English/British' category, and I think there would be a huge outcry if anyone tried to create one, for whatever reason.

I remember an anecdote on Neil Gaiman's journal, where he relates that after 'Anansi Boys' came out a lot of people from Florida wrote to him to tell him that he'd gotten the description of the funeral that takes place in that state wrong. 'You've written it as if it was a West Indian funeral or something!' they complained. It simply could not pierce their thick heads that the characters they were reading about were not white Americans, but black ones. The author took the not-unreasonable attitude that it would be rather stupid for characters who were black to go around thinking 'I'm black. And so is this other character I'm meeting. And so is my girlfriend', introducing each non-white character in terms of their ethnicity. Gaiman displayed his characters heritage and culture quite clearly, but apparently without a sticker saying 'Black Fiction' that wasn't enough.

It strikes me that putting fiction by black authors or featuring a majority of black characters in a category called 'Black Fiction' is basically pandering to the bias of white readers who assume that any character they read about is white as a default setting.

So. Very. Wrong.

LeeFlower

12-10-2006, 10:45 PM

It seems to me that shelving books based on race instead of genre is going to damage sales. You stick an SF book in the "African American liturature" section, chances are the people shopping there won't want it and the people shopping for SF won't find it.

God knows wild horses can't drag me into the part of the bookstore where the "________-American liturature" is shelved-- it's not my kind of book any more than the New Yorker is my kind of magazine, and that's nothing to do with the race of the author. I go trawling the SF section for new authors I've never heard of on a fairly regular basis. If I'm only finding the white ones because the bookstore decided to segregate their shelves, that sucks.

mistri

12-10-2006, 11:08 PM

I used to be a bookseller in the UK and we *did* have a black fiction section. This was a store in Walthamstow, East London. Central London stores also sometimes have black fiction sections.

Now this section was in place before my employment, and I asked one of the managers why it was there. Her answer? Because it was wanted. She felt that black men and women wanted to walk into the shop and find books that told stories by black authors and about black culture, without searching for it.

And the section was successful. But on the other hand, there were also customers that didn't like the section and complained about it.

I felt it was a bit odd, personally. Many of the books might've had bigger sales if they were in a more general section (it contained everything from chick-lit books to history titles).

TrickyFiction

12-10-2006, 11:15 PM

You know, I've always had a problem with separating "black lit." from the rest. I also have a problem with separating "gay and lesbian lit." from the rest. I think we could all learn a little something by hopping into another perspective for a change, and segregating different perspectives only discourages that.

Elektra

12-10-2006, 11:55 PM

This is absolutely ridiculous. What next? "Yes, please direct me to your blonde-author section. Subcategory? Blue eyed, please."

anodyne

12-10-2006, 11:57 PM

Book stores I can't talk to.

As far as there being subject headings for Women's literature, yes, there are. Thousands of them. Which is one of the reasons original cataloging is most often done by the Library of Congress.

As far as Brandon Massey goes, his books are filed under the Subject Heading "Horror tales, American" so as far as libraries that follow the LCSH go, he'll be filed with other horror books. However, unlike bookstores, libraries are designed to aid in collocation. They aren't trying to get you to read, or buy anything.

And speaking to the original question of this thread, books about African Americans are not "black literature" as currently defined. "Black Literature" is specifically written by Black people about Black characters. In as much as Samuel Delany is a Sci-Fi, not African American writer, even though he is black, and Octavia Butler is an African American writer who writes sci-fi. Don't ask me. Just like "literary" fiction, it's a distinction created in a fundamentally flawed academic system.

scarletpeaches

12-10-2006, 11:58 PM

anodyne

12-11-2006, 12:03 AM

HapiSofi

12-11-2006, 12:08 AM

If all the books in the bookstore were piled up in one undifferentiated heap, you'd have a hard time finding what you like, and there wouldn't be nearly as many books sold. The point of marketing categories in publishing is to tell the reader, "If you've enjoyed previous books in this category, you'll probably like this one too."

The question is whether black authors will sell more copies if they're categorized as "black" rather than "mystery" or "technothriller" or "romance". This isn't an area where I'm an expert, but extrapolating from what I do know, I'd say that in a situation where blacks are publishing few books, and the non-black bookbuying audience is reluctant to read their books, a category of their own might make sense. The more black authors there are, and the less non-black readers worry about buying their books, the less sense it makes for them to shelved by skin color rather than category.

The big argument against putting black authors into their own category is that non-black readers will take it as a signal that those books aren't aimed at them.

Skin color makes less difference to genre writers. For example, science fiction readers don't question whether Samuel R. Delany, Octavia Butler, Steve Barnes, or Nalo Hopkinson are writing books aimed at them. Of course they are: they're writing science fiction.

I can tell you what will do black publishing a lot of good: if you're making a choice between patronizing one small independent bookstore or another, buy your books at the bookstores that identify themselves as having a significant black constituency. Gay content became hugely more acceptable in books for general audiences when the number of books of all kinds that were being sold through gay bookstores demonstrated the size of the gay reading audience.

scarletpeaches

12-11-2006, 12:13 AM

badducky

12-11-2006, 12:16 AM

I should mention -- I think -- that KINDRED is still shelved in SF/Fantasy, and BELOVED is still shelved in Fiction/Literature.

Thus, this separation is probably about as intelligent as any other separation in the book stores these days.

I still don't understand why Margaret Atwood is under Fiction/Literature and Ursula K. LeGuinn is under SF/Fantasy...

Heck, the last bookstore I was in had LIFE OF PI by Yann Martel shelved in SF/Fantasy.

Much of these decisions are not made by someone who has read all the books in question. And, once they are made, the computers tell the staff where to find the books, and not one person dare put things correct lest the next employee (who doesn't necessarily know the difference between Scott Turow and F. Scott Fitzgerald) can find the book when the customer asks for it.

However, I am always against segregation. For some reason when I'm browsing in Literature my fingers aren't burned by the many chicklit titles therein, nor do the ubiquitous thrillers bother me.

I say, shelve all the fiction (including the romance) in two sections: Trade/Hardback Fiction, and Paperback Fiction.

Of course, the industry will probably claim that this is a very bad idea, and undoubtedly customers will complain about it, and I am a minority.

Hm... Do you think they could have a separate section just for people who hate sectionalizing?

Dave.C.Robinson

12-11-2006, 12:30 AM

I'm a Canadian, and I'm primarily submitting my works to the US to avoid being trapped in the "CanLit" ghetto. I don't see this as any different. The only way to avoid racism is to ignore race.

Shelve books as urban/hip-hop fiction, not by the race of the author.

Zolah

12-11-2006, 12:47 AM

I used to be a bookseller in the UK and we *did* have a black fiction section. This was a store in Walthamstow, East London. Central London stores also sometimes have black fiction sections.

Now this section was in place before my employment, and I asked one of the managers why it was there. Her answer? Because it was wanted. She felt that black men and women wanted to walk into the shop and find books that told stories by black authors and about black culture, without searching for it.

My argument stands. What if white people wanted a White Section filled with books by only white authors about white characters, so they didn't have to search for books about their 'culture'? Sounds a bit silly, doesn't it? And I'm glad to say that I've never come across this in any bookshop I've entered (and, let me tell you, I've been in quite a few across the UK and Ireland). So if a few isolated bookshops are doing it but none of the major chains have picked it up, that tells me it can't have caught on here. Thank God for that. It's racist and stupid.

MajorDrums

12-11-2006, 01:03 AM

i see this more as an implicit vs. explicit argument. to me, when i hear the word mainstream, i automatically think white, because the majority of Americans are white. it doesn't have to always refer to a white person in the industry, but that has been my experience. it's a P.C. term to me. the term black is very specific, which is why issues of segregation crop up. i don't know, i feel very ambivalent about this issue and am trying to gather my thoughts. hopefully i can come back with a more comprehensive post.

anodyne

12-11-2006, 01:19 AM

I once had a lesbian lay into me (steady!) because I dared to say I was against gay/lesbian literature being shelved separately. My attitude was, books aren't 'gay' or 'straight' - characters are, and if gay people want to be accepted into the community as they say, why segregate themselves in all walks of life?

This was just after Alan Hollinghurst (?) won the Booker Prize, and she'd said she was happy a gay book had won. I objected to this term, saying you never hear of 'straight' books and it seemed she was making a bigger deal of her sexuality than anyone else was. To be honest, gay or straight, she was one of those people who liked to start fights with people who tried to remove the chip from her shoulder.

Apparently my saying, "I'd prefer a good book one, regardless of the sexuality of the author," was inflammatory.

*rolls eyes*

They do that because there's such an issue in this country about gay literature. A book about gay chracters or even a book about straight characters written by a gay author is ten times as likely to be challenged or under-reviewed as a straight author or book with straight content.

If a book isn't reviewed (by library selection trade magazines and other such resources), it doesn't go up for prizes like the Booker, or Caldecott or similar awards. It isn't selected into libraries.

Speaking from experience, important gay titles are often only covered 50% of the time in major titles, like School Library Journal, and it is the best as far as that is concerned. There was an article published a while back, by Sweetland (1995) and a new study along the same lines conducted last year. In the 1995 study, titles from gay houses that had won awards and been recognized for their quality were 85% less likely to be reviewed by major journals than heterosexual titles from small houses with same type of recognition. In 2005 study, of three-hundred titles studied, 150 with homosexual content, 150 not, all well-received and well written, the study found that gay novels had on average 3.4 reviews, (between one and sixteen) and heterosexual novels had on average 12 reviews, (between one and fifty).

In another study, over half of the reviews of gay YA fiction will either skirt the fact that the content was gay, fail to mention it, or comment on it if they feel that the novel deals with issues in a suitable fashion.

The problem isn't that they want to be distinguished from other authors, the problem is that they are. The best way to keep their books from being challenged, or to sell to the audience willing to read their work is to separate them out.

anodyne

12-11-2006, 01:25 AM

It's okay (in my view) to categorise books according to genre. We all have genre-preferences. It's perfectly acceptable to say, "I read poetry, but I don't read romance. I read biographies, but not sci-fi/fantasy."

But...what would be your reaction to hearing someone say, "I read books by white authors, but I don't like black writers' books."

That would be racial segregation, and if it's wrong to have it in your heart, it's wrong to have it on the shelf.

Ah, that was my point - categorise books by genre, not by race of author or character.

Well... Take Robert Parker. He's been lauded continually for his portrayal of black characters. Why? Because they aren't stereotypical. You wouldn't want to read a stereotypical representation of yourself anymore than other people want to read a stereotypical representation of themselves. If what you want to read is a story about people like you, and you identify strongly with your race, for white people, all you have to do is go to the bookstore and pick up a title. For minorities it's a little more difficult than that.

With that said, I think it's something that should be done intelligently. If you aren't sure where to put a book, look at the LC heading. Really, librarians are professionals. If it's a historical or modern novel written about black people by black people? Well okay, that makes a little sense. But any genre novel should be placed in its appropriate genre, where it doesn't matter what your racial credentials are. No one reads a mystery, or thriller, or fantasy novel with the expectation of having a realistic presentation of their particular group. If we did, we'd have a problem when male authors try to write female characters. They're shallow, flat and unbelievable most of the time, (take Parker's Sonny character for instance) but, do we care?

anodyne

12-11-2006, 01:26 AM

Laurawrites

12-11-2006, 01:27 AM

I think it should only be seperate if they want to create a new genre based upon ethnicity and history. I don't see as it should really matter if the book is well written and the readers can identify or relate with the elements of the book.

I love reading Alice Walker. I am almost completely Scottish in ethnicity with a little Irish and English. My family tree isn't exotic in the least:-)

Anyways, I love much of her work. It actually shocked me several times to find that the characters were black because it didn't mention it. The stories I read were so active and interesting, race just wasn't something I thought about. Of course, that didn't change anything, I still love many of her pieces.

I have also read a book by another black woman and I just could not get into the character. I don't think it was well-written at all. The author mentioned that the character was black at the start, and that was just fine with me, but I got into the book and it was just bad. Literally all men mentioned in the book were romantically interested in the heroine, she was physically perfect, she had a perfect career, she kept perfect distance from anyone who was troubled, it was just too perfect to relate to in any way. You would expect something like this, perhaps in a romance, but this was supposed to be a mystery novel. There was supposed to be conflict, energy, momentum. It just wasn't there.

I don't think there should be a catagory developed just because the characters are black. I mean, an American is an American, period. Stephen King and Dean Koontz could be purple, for all I care, and I'd still love their work.

Elektra

12-11-2006, 01:27 AM

My argument stands. What if white people wanted a White Section filled with books by only white authors about white characters, so they didn't have to search for books about their 'culture'? Sounds a bit silly, doesn't it? And I'm glad to say that I've never come across this in any bookshop I've entered (and, let me tell you, I've been in quite a few across the UK and Ireland). So if a few isolated bookshops are doing it but none of the major chains have picked it up, that tells me it can't have caught on here. Thank God for that. It's racist and stupid.

This is, however, a part of our (American) culture now. About a quarter of the clubs at our school are only open to people of a specific minority race, or are only open to women. Every time I see it, I can't help thinking "If men were doing the same thing, or if a group only let in white people, it would be shut down in the blink of an eye." So if that thrives, why wouldn't a "black authors only" section do well?

scarletpeaches

12-11-2006, 01:30 AM

The best way to keep their books from being challenged, or to sell to the audience willing to read their work is to separate them out.

Right, and people who have their own section in a bookstore still complain about being marginalised in society...To say 'the best way to be accepted is to be separated'...I just don't get that, and refuse to accept it. If you separate yourself, you've got no right to complain about the majority of people viewing you as somehow 'other'.

Elektra

12-11-2006, 01:33 AM

Well... Take Robert Parker. He's been lauded continually for his portrayal of black characters. Why? Because they aren't stereotypical. You wouldn't want to read a stereotypical representation of yourself anymore than other people want to read a stereotypical representation of themselves. If what you want to read is a story about people like you, and you identify strongly with your race, for white people, all you have to do is go to the bookstore and pick up a title. For minorities it's a little more difficult than that.

Really? I can name several books off the top of my head with a relatable black MC. But I defy you to name one book with an unstereotypical blonde-haired, blue-eyed female lead.

anodyne

12-11-2006, 01:35 AM

The problem Elektra, is that the few people who try that do so with racist memes. Like the "Scholarship" a bunch of students set up where you had to prove your whiteness with a picture (and no bleached skin). There are a lot of groups that are still men only. For instance, the Masons. They have separate organizations. There's the Daughters of Lot, and that's for chicks. And there's the Masons, and that's for men. So far, no one has gotten on em for it.

I also want to add, what white culture or heritage? There is none. What people consider white today was considered non-white thirty, forty, fifty years ago. Italians, Jews, etc. A hundred years ago the Irish were considered "non-white": if you've ever heard the term "black irish" it's not referring to african-irish interbreeding. Or remember the signs, "Irish need not apply."

"White" culture, is a forced melting pot that happened when our society did not tolerate difference. Can you name something that is isolated only to "White" culture? I can't.

Black, white, they're all constructs. IF someone wanted to make a group celebrating AMERICAN culture, they'd have to include everyone.

Elektra

12-11-2006, 01:38 AM

The Masons only get away with it, though, because they've been around for such a long time. But I don't see how "insert-minority-here" scholarships are any less racist than a white-only scholarship (and for the record, I don't agree with the idea of either of them--scholarships should be based on merit, not what you happen to look like).

scarletpeaches

12-11-2006, 01:40 AM

Positive discrimination is still discrimination.

lmaistros

12-11-2006, 01:44 AM

Although I'm very much against segregation of any kind, I think implying that the "African American book section" is racist misses the mark.

The problem here is that this seperation is meant to serve black people, many of whom like these sections, presumably because looking for black authors in your typical American bookstore is a bit like trying to find a needle in a haystack. For the same reason that many bookstores now have a "gay/lesbian interest" section. These sections don't exist because straight white people have forced them on anyone.

Still, in the larger picture, I think the convenience of having these "specialty markets" seperated out will also serve to stigmatize and ghettoize their target audiences.

A compromise might be to "cross market" these titles seperately and in the general population. Problem there is that you'd have to have two of each title to pull it off, and this would cause a cost efficiency problem for retailers. For the bigger authors, they're already doing this (in my local B&N I noticed Langston Hughes is in both general fiction and black interest).

I don't think it's a conspiracy, more like a backwards political correctness. I do think it's an ill advised idea.

anodyne

12-11-2006, 01:46 AM

The Ayla books? Or did you mean modern? Well, the Sonny books. She's not a stereotypical blonde, even if she's stereotypical in other ways (the diet thing? Come on.)

Most "White people" aren't blonde with blue eyes.

Elektra

12-11-2006, 01:46 AM

I don't think it's a conspiracy, more like a backwards political correctness. I do think it's an ill advised idea.

I don't think anyone is implying that it's a conspiracy to Screw the White Man. But if you wish to read ONLY black authors, just because they're black, then isn't that a bit off?

Zolah

12-11-2006, 01:47 AM

They don't need a section, it's most of the book store.

Great - and let's make sure that any books which do have black authors or deal with black culture are carefully separated out so that they can carefully be IGNORED by the rest of the book store and everyone who walks in there. Challenging new book by an author that delves deeply into themes of race and cultural identity? Goodness, the author's black - just stick it in the Black section. Thoughtful discussion of sexuality and sexual mores in the world today? Oh, look, the author's gay, shove it in the Gay section. That way they won't mess up the normal shelves or give anyone a fright.

Genre is about the BOOK. S/F. Romance. Children's. That's okay. What is NOT okay is to make the colour of the author's skin or their sexual orientation a genre. I don't care what arguments anyone makes: that's just pandering to prejudice. If someone comes across a book which shocks them - GOOD. If that book gets challenged or causes a fuss and gets some publicity - GOOD. You do not fight prejudice by nurturing segregation.

Zolah

12-11-2006, 01:50 AM

This is, however, a part of our (American) culture now. About a quarter of the clubs at our school are only open to people of a specific minority race, or are only open to women. Every time I see it, I can't help thinking "If men were doing the same thing, or if a group only let in white people, it would be shut down in the blink of an eye." So if that thrives, why wouldn't a "black authors only" section do well?

Because books aren't people. They're books. They're classified according to GENRE, not the colour of the author's skin. That way lies madness.

anodyne

12-11-2006, 01:52 AM

Positive discrimination is still discrimination.

I HATE this line of logic. It's mostly accompanied by whiny, uninformed opinions on the usefullness of affirmative action, (usually including myths about what it actually does and accomplishes).

There is no way to "positively" discriminate, because discrimination is defined as unfair and oppressive treatment of one based on their skin color, sexuality, religion or nationality. Until equality is attained, there need to be methods to enforce an artificial equality. If you want that to end, then drop your upper-suburban lifestyle and go raise test scores in the inner cities. Invest your next advance in education for socio-economically disadvantaged people of all skin colors and locations.

But don't delude yourself into thinking that everything is okay, or that racism, sexism and homophobia no longer exist. African Americans do not compose a vast majority of the socio-economically depressed because they choose to. The only people who decry the system are those who have benefited from it and no longer need it, and those who refuse to conceptualize that the need hasn't disappeared. We called "Mission Accomplished" on inequality in the 1990s... but it's still not the case.

Elektra

12-11-2006, 01:53 AM

Because books aren't people. They're books. They're classified according to GENRE, not the colour of the author's skin. That way lies madness.

But it's the same thing, isn't it? Instead of classifying themselves by different interests (for example, a knitting club, or a Jazz club), they classify themselves by race. In both situations, everbody's missing out.

anodyne

12-11-2006, 01:57 AM

Great - and let's make sure that any books which do have black authors or deal with black culture are carefully separated out so that they can carefully be IGNORED by the rest of the book store and everyone who walks in there. Challenging new book by an author that delves deeply into themes of race and cultural identity? Goodness, the author's black - just stick it in the Black section. Thoughtful discussion of sexuality and sexual mores in the world today? Oh, look, the author's gay, shove it in the Gay section. That way they won't mess up the normal shelves or give anyone a fright.

Genre is about the BOOK. S/F. Romance. Children's. That's okay. What is NOT okay is to make the colour of the author's skin or their sexual orientation a genre. I don't care what arguments anyone makes: that's just pandering to prejudice. If someone comes across a book which shocks them - GOOD. If that book gets challenged or causes a fuss and gets some publicity - GOOD. You do not fight prejudice by nurturing segregation.

Have you ever had to deal with a book challenge process? Are you out on the frontlines. Do you have patrons coming at you, screaming that you are furthering the gay, or black, or white, or atheist, or feminist, or white supremecist, or satanist, or any ist, agenda. That you, personally, need to take this book off the shelf this moment, because they pay your salary?

It's all well and good to sit back and armchair this, but if you answered no to any of the statements above, you don't have real world experience with this. Yes, banned books gain publicity. And, as we all know, any publicity is good publicity. Right?

But this goes back to, bookstores are privately owned businesses, which put books where they think they'll sell the best. Whether you like it or not, the African American novel is a genre, and has been a genre since the late 1800s.

Yes, it's a racist system. But eliminating the stop-guards won't make it less of a racist system. The only way to eliminate -isms is to get them all at once. As long as there's sexism, racism, genderism or classism, there will be problems. Ripping the bandaids off third-degree burns isn't going ot change that.

Rivana

12-11-2006, 01:58 AM

anodyne

12-11-2006, 01:58 AM

Really? I can name several books off the top of my head with a relatable black MC. But I defy you to name one book with an unstereotypical blonde-haired, blue-eyed female lead.

Oh, and I wanted to mention... white people don't have the best track record with identifying stereotypical representations of black people.

anodyne

12-11-2006, 02:00 AM

*looks horrified*
That's such an American problem. To even come up with such an idea...
*shakes head in disbelief*
Completely insane. I say -make a stand for racial indifference and market the book just like any other book. Stupid ideas like this only add to the racial segregation of society at large.

Our society is already segregated. We're a nation of black cities surrounded by white suburbs. Everything Martin Luther King feared would happen has. By separating these books out, they gain a higher chance of being reviewed, getting awards, and being selected by professors for classes, which gives them more stock in the academy and gives them more cultural capital which in turn furthers their cause.

Writing African American fiction is a choice. Publishing with a "black" publishing house that has a reputation for publishing African American fiction is a great way to get your book mislabeled by people who don't know better.

scarletpeaches

12-11-2006, 02:03 AM

I HATE this line of logic. It's mostly accompanied by whiny, uninformed opinions on the usefullness of affirmative action...

But don't delude yourself into thinking that everything is okay, or that racism, sexism and homophobia no longer exist. African Americans do not compose a vast majority of the socio-economically depressed because they choose to. The only people who decry the system are those who have benefited from it and no longer need it, and those who refuse to conceptualize that the need hasn't disappeared. We called "Mission Accomplished" on inequality in the 1990s... but it's still not the case.

I HATE the opposing line of logic.

And I don't remember saying that everything was okay. But you don't get rid of racism by counter-attacking with racism from the other side.

It works both ways. You can't take the moral high ground if you say white segregation of black people is wrong, but it's okay for black people to segregate themselves (or gays, or whoever...)

I decry the system because it's unfair, not because I'm in any way white, middle class, suburban, well-to-do. If anyone thought that of me, they obviously don't know me at all. And it's an insult to suggest that I'm in any way uninformed - the colour of my skin doesn't make me any less 'aware' and I make no apologies for being white and having an opinion.

Elektra

12-11-2006, 02:03 AM

Oh, and I wanted to mention... white people don't have the best track record with identifying stereotypical representations of black people.

That's like saying that a black person couldn't see that someone's a stereotypical "dumb blond", or that poor people can't tell that Paris Hilton is a stereotypical rich girl.

Zolah

12-11-2006, 02:06 AM

Have you ever had to deal with a book challenge process? Are you out on the frontlines. Do you have patrons coming at you, screaming that you are furthering the gay, or black, or white, or atheist, or feminist, or white supremecist, or satanist, or any ist, agenda. That you, personally, need to take this book off the shelf this moment, because they pay your salary?[quote=anodyn]

As a matter of fact, I work in a benefit office in the inner city. When I get people screaming at me, generally they are homeless or mentally ill, and trying to get across my desk in order spit on, stab or strangle me. Of course, some of them also mention the fact that they pay my salary. Does that count? No, perhaps not. But suddenly your suburban housewife with the bigotted attitude seems slightly less scary, doesn't she?

[quote=anodyn]Yes, it's a racist system. But eliminating the stop-guards won't make it less of a racist system. The only way to eliminate -isms is to get them all at once. As long as there's sexism, racism, genderism or classism, there will be problems. Ripping the bandaids off third-degree burns isn't going ot change that.

Oh, I see. It's useless to to try and fight any prejudice until all prejudice is already gone. Well, that makes it all clear. I'll go and tell Nelson Mandela. He'll probably be terribly relieved that he can give up and have a rest.

Medievalist

12-11-2006, 02:10 AM

Every day that I wake up, I thank the Gods I don't live in the U.S.

We are strangely schizoid, both liberating and puritanical and, most of all, deeply conflicted.

scarletpeaches

12-11-2006, 02:10 AM

But still, yiz invented AW so you're not all bad. ;)

anodyne

12-11-2006, 02:14 AM

# or racialism is a form of discrimination based on race, especially the belief that one race is superior to another. Racism may be expressed individually and consciously, through explicit thoughts, feelings, or acts, or socially and unconsciously, through institutions that promote inequality between races.
www.kids.net.au/encyclopedia-wiki/ra/Racism

# (Audre Lorde): The inherent belief in the superiority of one race over all others and thereby the right to dominance.
www.uihome.uidaho.edu/default.aspx

# The belief that one 'racial group' is inferior to another and the practices of the dominant group to maintain the inferior position of the dominated group. Often defined as a combination of power, prejudice and discrimination.
www.bl.uk/services/learning/curriculum/voices/refglos.html

You're right, reverse racism would be wrong. But it's not happening. The opposite line of logic? That growing up in an economically advantaged area of town gives you access to better education, and so test scores should be read compared to the test scores in your school and district rather than nationally? That someone who scores 52 on an ACT test when their class mates have all earned 16s has as much right to scholarships as someone who earned a 56 when their classmates earned 54s?

That if you come from a socio-economically depressed area you should be given funding to go to school because your family can't afford it? God forbid.

I'm not saying it's okay for black people to segregate themselves, and for the most part they don't. It's not an active choice to live in the cities. It's a common facet of city planning, and we all know about it. People pay for houses to be built and live in them for fifty years until they're too old to take care of the property and the prices deteroriate until economically disadvantaged people can afford it. Then they purchase the houses, everyone else flees the neighborhood, it deteriorates until young (gay) professionals go in and fix it back up for young white suburbanites. (If this explanation sounds racist, guess what, it is.)

Will hiding african american titles away from people who want to read african american titles make the racism disappear?

WildScribe

12-11-2006, 02:15 AM

If we're going that route, I want all novels dealing with characters and their paranormal abilities shelved together so I can find them more easily.

We call it the "fantasy" section. :D

scarletpeaches

12-11-2006, 02:15 AM

mistri

12-11-2006, 02:16 AM

My argument stands. What if white people wanted a White Section filled with books by only white authors about white characters, so they didn't have to search for books about their 'culture'? Sounds a bit silly, doesn't it? And I'm glad to say that I've never come across this in any bookshop I've entered (and, let me tell you, I've been in quite a few across the UK and Ireland). So if a few isolated bookshops are doing it but none of the major chains have picked it up, that tells me it can't have caught on here. Thank God for that. It's racist and stupid.

As I also said, and as you didn't quote, I did feel it was a little odd. I wasn't putting it forward as my argument, but simply one manager's argument.

Also, while it was just a single shop, it was a chain shop (Hammicks, which was eaten up by Ottakars, which was eaten up by Waterstones). The other shop I'd seen it in was a major chain shop (I think it was Waterstones Gower St, London). It's certainly not a common practice, though.

eta: WH Smiths Oxford St used to do it as well (I think centralised buying means they don't now)

Elektra

12-11-2006, 02:17 AM

a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
dictionary.com

WildScribe

12-11-2006, 02:17 AM

Our society is already segregated. We're a nation of black cities surrounded by white suburbs.

Maybe in your part of the country, however the city I moved from was mostly Vietnamese, and the city I moved TO is mostly Mexican. I belong to the white minority, living a block or two from downtown.

Zolah

12-11-2006, 02:18 AM

Will hiding african american titles away from people who want to read african american titles make the racism disappear?

That is just what most people on this thread are arguing AGAINST. The point is that African American titles should NOT be hidden away in a special bit of the shop, but should be freely available along with all the rest of the general or genre fiction, to be easily found by EVERYONE, not just those who go into the bookshop to find African American fiction, but for those who just wanted to find something to read, regardless of the colour of the author.

scarletpeaches

12-11-2006, 02:18 AM

I have a dream...that one day, books will be judged by the content of the story, not by the colour of the hand that wrote it.

Zolah

12-11-2006, 02:20 AM

As I also said, and as you didn't quote, I did feel it was a little odd. I wasn't putting it forward as my argument, but simply one manager's argument.

Also, while it was just a single shop, it was a chain shop (Hammicks, which was eaten up by Ottakars, which was eaten up by Waterstones). The other shop I'd seen it in was a major chain shop (a Waterstones branch in central London). It's certainly not a common practice, though.

Well, thank heavens for that! I'm sorry that I lept on your statement there - I'm getting a bit het up now. Argh. Must have coffee...

anodyne

12-11-2006, 02:20 AM

As a matter of fact, I work in a benefit office in the inner city. When I get people screaming at me, generally they are homeless or mentally ill, and trying to get across my desk in order spit on, stab or strangle me. Of course, some of them also mention the fact that they pay my salary. Does that count? No, perhaps not. But suddenly your suburban housewife with the bigotted attitude seems slightly less scary, doesn't she?

Oh, I see. It's useless to to try and fight any prejudice until all prejudice is already gone. Well, that makes it all clear. I'll go and tell Nelson Mandela. He'll probably be terribly relieved that he can give up and have a rest.

Yes, but how does that relate to censored or challenged books? I'm not doing a, who has the worse job, dick length contest. I love my job. My job is wonderful. But encouraging books to be placed in areas they'll be challenged and I have to deal with them... <shrugs> An analogous situation would be me saying that they should take the protective glass away from your desk because it's racist and intolerant.

It's not useless to try to fight prejudice. But for &Deity sake, at least fight it where it matters. If prejudice bothers you, fight it at the city, county, country level. Fight for education. Fight for more jobs. Fight for a mall where every black person whether professor, laureat or nobel prize winner isn't watched like a hawk while white suburbanites shop-lift. Fight for an end to a society that plasters every beautiful, blonde missing girl on a full page spread in the news while relegating the notice that "the children of a black woman who was killed and had her unborn child ripped from her corpse were found dead and stuffed in a freezer" to a two inch side bar. Fight oppression and racism and discrimination where it matters.

anodyne

12-11-2006, 02:21 AM

I have a dream...that one day, books will be judged by the content of the story, not by the colour of the hand that wrote it.

I'm with you. Totally. But until that day, removing the ability for those books to sell isn't fixing anything.

Elektra

12-11-2006, 02:21 AM

You're right, reverse racism would be wrong. But it's not happening. The opposite line of logic? That growing up in an economically advantaged area of town gives you access to better education, and so test scores should be read compared to the test scores in your school and district rather than nationally? That someone who scores 52 on an ACT test when their class mates have all earned 16s has as much right to scholarships as someone who earned a 56 when their classmates earned 54s?

How did the one kid score a 52? If the other kids had done what he did, they could have gotten 52's as well. The basic point is, the person who has a 16, for whatever reason, even if it's not his fault, isn't ready for certain colleges. For a college to take someone who got a 16 over someone who earned a 56, because the 16 person didn't have as man advantages, is to basically screw over and diminish the person who got the 56. Should people be discriminated against because they've been lucky enough to get a good education?

janetbellinger

12-11-2006, 02:22 AM

what is considered black and white anyway, the race of the authors or the publishers? I've been published in a black women's magazine but I am not black. The editor did not ask me that question, she was only interested in my writing. I'm sure lots of black publishing companies publish both black and white authors. After all they are publishers first of all.

anodyne

12-11-2006, 02:22 AM

Maybe in your part of the country, however the city I moved from was mostly Vietnamese, and the city I moved TO is mostly Mexican. I belong to the white minority, living a block or two from downtown.

Black = The Other = enconomically depressed minorities. You belong to the white minority living in a city. I fail to see how you're refuting my claim.

anodyne

12-11-2006, 02:25 AM

How did the one kid score a 52? If the other kids had done what he did, they could have gotten 52's as well. The basic point is, the person who has a 16, for whatever reason, even if it's not his fault, isn't ready for certain colleges. For a college to take someone who got a 16 over someone who earned a 56, because the 16 person didn't have as man advantages, is to basically screw over and diminish the person who got the 56. Should people be discriminated against because they've been lucky enough to get a good education?

No one is taking someone who has a 16. And that's why I hate this argument. The kids who are getting into college with Affirmative Action are the ones who got 52s. They're getting into schools that require 54s, because the schools are required, by law, to look at the average and bump the grade up a bit.

Why didn't they do the same thing the 52 did? Because the fifty-two was driven. The vast amount of college students are not driven. They go to college because it's what is expected. A student (notice race isn't involved in this) who lives in a wealthy school district has fundamentally less work to do in order to attain a 56 on their ACTs than a student who lives in an economically depressed area.

Elektra

12-11-2006, 02:27 AM

It's not less work; rather, it's more self-driven work.

scarletpeaches

12-11-2006, 02:28 AM

I'm with you. Totally. But until that day, removing the ability for those books to sell isn't fixing anything.

Oh for goodness' sake...my point is that putting 'black' books on a 'black' shelf isn't going to sell them to everyone is it? It's going to make people believe only black people should buy them. Put books in the mainstream so everyone knows about them, everyone buys them.

I'm sure glad we don't have that sort of nonsense going on where I live.

And no, I'm not denying that black people have some disadvantages. I regret that. But, in the spirit of racial equality, I'd also like to add I feel sorry for white people who are disadvantaged. ANYONE who has a tough start to life doesn't get themselves out of it by whining, though, but by doing something about it.

I just dont get how you can do away with segregation by insisting on...well, segregation.

Zolah

12-11-2006, 02:28 AM

<shrugs> An analogous situation would be me saying that they should take the protective glass away from your desk because it's racist and intolerant.<snip>

It's not useless to try to fight prejudice. But for &Deity sake, at least fight it where it matters. If prejudice bothers you, fight it at the city, county, country level. Fight for education. Fight for more jobs. Fight for a mall where every black person whether professor, laureat or nobel prize winner isn't watched like a hawk while white suburbanites shop-lift. Fight for an end to a society that plasters every beautiful, blonde missing girl on a full page spread in the news while relegating notice of the children of the black woman who was killed and had her unborn child ripped from her corpse were found dead and found in a freezer is relegated to a two inch side bar. Fight oppression and racism and discrimination where it matters.

As a matter of fact, there IS no glass (or any protective barrier) around my desk.

And I happen to think that all racism, no matter how 'minor' it may seem, is equally important. I'm not a police officer, I'm not a teacher, I can't do anything about the prejudice in the media, but I am a reader and a writer and if I can fight prejudice in bookshops I bloody well will. Rosa Parks fought it in a bus, and that small start was big enough for her. Books are big enough for me.

anodyne

12-11-2006, 02:31 AM

I don't call putting 'black' books in with 'white' books hiding them from people who want to read them. Surely the reader (whatever their race, religion, age, gender or sexual orientation) has the sense to find the book wherever it is?

I mean...if they can't read, they shouldn't be in a bookshop!

The fact of the matter is, there is no White literature. There is only literature written by white people. There IS Black literature, AND literature written by black people. The case cited in the WSJ is not the norm. This horror writer is published by a house that traditionally publishes a genre of work that is literary and termed African American Literature, so in this particular store he was shelved with the other books by that publisher.

This isn't the norm. Authors who choose to make an issue of their race do so because they expect their client base to be academics looking for contemporary literature in the area of African American lit, or because they expect their work to sell better if they are marketed as being associated with the Black community or in that genre.

There is a genre of Gay fiction. For the most part, gay writers who don't make an issue of their sexuality are not shelved there (in bookstores). Those who do are. Why? Because they expect their work to sell better if they attach themselves to this social cause.

The same reason Uncle Jim is shelved in the Fantasy, and Stephen King is shelved in Horror. Should these genres exist? Yes, because if they didn't how would people who wanted to read those genres find them? Should books that are not in these genres but are written by members of these communites be shelved in them? Absolutely not! That's a terrible idea.

anodyne

12-11-2006, 02:33 AM

As a matter of fact, there IS no glass (or any protective barrier) around my desk.

And I happen to think that all racism, no matter how 'minor' it may seem, is equally important. I'm not a police officer, I'm not a teacher, I can't do anything about the prejudice in the media, but I am a reader and a writer and if I can fight prejudice in bookshops I bloody well will. Rosa Parks fought it in a bus, and that small start was big enough for her. Books are big enough for me.

Another misconception. Rosa Parks was a lifelong advocate. She'd been jailed numerous times. She lead demonstrations, she marched. The myth of a woman uninvolved who refused to give up her seat because she was tired is racist. It's not what happened. She actively made a stand. She was jailed numerous times for making the same stand, for refusing to give up her seat to a white person. That was just the one that stuck.

anodyne

12-11-2006, 02:36 AM

It's not less work; rather, it's more self-driven work.

I call B.S. I didn't study to get a 1600 SAT score. I didn't work hard in school, I didn't have amazing grades. I got scholarships. My friends, husband included, who are minorities struggled to graduate at the top of their classes and get good grades, that outstripped those of the other people in their districts by a good amount, and still had trouble finding funding.

No one is encouraging kids in inner city schools to excel, just to pass. All of the effort to get good grades, get good scores and get scholarships is self-driven. The same cannot be said for suburban economically advantaged schools where everyone who is even mediocrely bright is encouraged by teachers, counselors and parents to go to college.

Elektra

12-11-2006, 02:36 AM

Actually, she wasn't intent on making a stand. She was in the "colored" section of the bus. But the white section was full, so a white person demanded her seat. That's when she refused to move.

Elektra

12-11-2006, 02:37 AM

No one is encouraging kids in inner city schools to excel, just to pass. All of the effort to get good grades, get good scores and get scholarships is self-driven.

Erm--that's kinda what I said.

Zolah

12-11-2006, 02:47 AM

Another misconception. Rosa Parks was a lifelong advocate. She'd been jailed numerous times. She lead demonstrations, she marched. The myth of a woman uninvolved who refused to give up her seat because she was tired is racist. It's not what happened. She actively made a stand. She was jailed numerous times for making the same stand, for refusing to give up her seat to a white person. That was just the one that stuck.

As a matter of a fact, I knew that already. My point is that she didn't say: 'Shove this bus thing, it's too minor for me - I'm going to take on the President!' She fought as best she could, in the areas she could. Some might have called her stand over the bus seat (the one that 'stuck') insignificant, meaningless. Pointless. She didn't. And guess what? it did make a difference.

Oh, and by the way, I'm part of an ethnic minority, but I don't want my books (especially the ones which feature non-white characters or have non-white protagonists) to be labelled 'Greek' or 'Arabic', or 'Ethnic Minority' or 'Greek/British' or any other meaningless term which reduces me and my work to the country my ancestors came from, no matter how many people come and scream at the library or shop desk saying that I'm trying to promote a 'black' agenda.

ChaosTitan

12-11-2006, 02:48 AM

We call it the "fantasy" section. :D

Yes, but it is surrounded by books that have nothing to do with my interest. They should be put into their own section as well. Hard SF over here, a stack of high fantasy over there....yes, much better.

*removes tongue from cheek*

anodyne

12-11-2006, 02:50 AM

Oh for goodness' sake...my point is that putting 'black' books on a 'black' shelf isn't going to sell them to everyone is it? It's going to make people believe only black people should buy them. Put books in the mainstream so everyone knows about them, everyone buys them.

I'm sure glad we don't have that sort of nonsense going on where I live.

And no, I'm not denying that black people have some disadvantages. I regret that. But, in the spirit of racial equality, I'd also like to add I feel sorry for white people who are disadvantaged. ANYONE who has a tough start to life doesn't get themselves out of it by whining, though, but by doing something about it.

I just dont get how you can do away with segregation by insisting on...well, segregation.

Education.

The only way, I can see it, to not make it impossible for the literature to be published at all. There is such a thing as the "theory of least effort" in library circles. Patrons, readers, consumers, will only exert so much effort to find an information resource, book, or item. The higher the level of interest the more effort they'll exert. For a casual browser, the patron, reader, consumer will select the first thing of moderate interest they come across, even if something better for them would be further down and they know that. If it's a choice between a slip of paper saying "See the Customer Service desk" and a book in front of them, they'll take the book, even if the other is better for their tastes, interests or research.

It's why good websites don't hide things behind too many clicks, because people will only click through so many times before they give up.

If someone is interested in a genre, say historical fiction, but that genre is buried in a bunch of mysteries, with no difference between the two but covers, which aren't turned out, how will they find them? Will they pull up the first book they find? Will they give up and go home?

Let me restate, because I don't think I'm being clear enough. There is a big difference between putting a genre, African American fiction, in its own area with other books of interest to those who want to read up on African American topics, and putting every book written by a black author or written about a black character into one.

The first, I support. The second I do not. But as far as I could tell, that's not what we're talking about.

anodyne

12-11-2006, 02:51 AM

Yes, but it is surrounded by books that have nothing to do with my interest. They should be put into their own section as well. Hard SF over here, a stack of high fantasy over there....yes, much better.

*removes tongue from cheek*

That would be great. :) But we aren't a big enough interest group to warrant it.

anodyne

12-11-2006, 03:02 AM

Erm--that's kinda what I said.

Sorry, the only thing I said was less work was the grades and attainment of the economically advantaged. So when you said it wasn't less work, just more self-driven I assumed you meant them. Referrential pronouns and all.

anodyne

12-11-2006, 03:06 AM

As a matter of a fact, I knew that already. My point is that she didn't say: 'Shove this bus thing, it's too minor for me - I'm going to take on the President!' She fought as best she could, in the areas she could. Some might have called her stand over the bus seat (the one that 'stuck') insignificant, meaningless. Pointless. She didn't. And guess what? it did make a difference.

Oh, and by the way, I'm part of an ethnic minority, but I don't want my books (especially the ones which feature non-white characters or have non-white protagonists) to be labelled 'Greek' or 'Arabic', or 'Ethnic Minority' or 'Greek/British' or any other meaningless term which reduces me and my work to the country my ancestors came from, no matter how many people come and scream at the library or shop desk saying that I'm trying to promote a 'black' agenda.

Good! I don't believe they should. What we're talking about, specifically, (or so I thought) are authors who publish with minority houses who wish to be known for writing about minority topics and being minority writers being shelved in minority sections for further distribution.

Anyone who doesn't fit that should be shelved in the area they're writing to. Take White Teeth, shelved in with other mainstream fiction. It should be. Authors and publishers pick what's important for the reader, or publisher to know. If you don't say, "Oh by the way, I'm a purple horned succubae from the nebulon system" they won't know that. Same with being female, gay, black or so on and so forth. If it's important to you, then it should be. If it isn't, or rather, is important that it shouldn't be, it won't.

Scribhneoir

12-11-2006, 03:16 AM

The point is that African American titles should NOT be hidden away in a special bit of the shop, but should be freely available along with all the rest of the general or genre fiction, to be easily found by EVERYONE ...

What's interesting here is your assumption that the African-American titles are "hidden away." They aren't. They're simply shelved under their own category.

In my local Borders, the "African-American Literature" section is centrally located between "Fiction/Literature" and "Poetry/Drama." It's not hidden in some dark, dusty corner. It's easily accessible and has at least as much visibility as any other genre category. Contrast that with "Christian Fiction," which is not shelved anywhere near other fiction categories, but is instead found in the "Bibles/Religious Studies" section.

Should African-American literature be categorized separately? Maybe, maybe not. But it's obviously serving a useful marketing purpose, so to claim such categorization is strictly an act of racism is ridiculous.

Elektra

12-11-2006, 03:21 AM

But then where does it stop? Should there be an Asian section, an Hispanic section, etc?

citymouse

12-11-2006, 03:22 AM

Exactly, And I was suprised to find out that there IS such a separation in the US. You don't have that here in the UK. A shelf for African-British authors? Doesn't exist. Not even the term exists. And I believe such a separation according to race is more contributing to racism than helping to eliminate it.

Since I've not book shopped in the UK I have a question. Is gay fiction in the UK shelved separately? In many large stores over here gay fiction is included in what is termed "gender studies" as if being gay propels one into a third gender.
"I have three children, one of each." ~ Victor Borge

anodyne

12-11-2006, 03:27 AM

But then where does it stop? Should there be an Asian section, an Hispanic section, etc?

Sure, if those books get published and have a reader share. You have no idea how hard it is to find books for your library if they aren't reviewed. Part of being reviewed is being identifiable.

Lyra Jean

12-11-2006, 03:44 AM

waylander

12-11-2006, 03:46 AM

Since I've not book shopped in the UK I have a question. Is gay fiction in the UK shelved separately? In many large stores over here gay fiction is included in what is termed "gender studies" as if being gay propels one into a third gender.
"I have three children, one of each." ~ Victor Borge

Gay fiction is not shelved separately in any bookshop I've seen.

anodyne

12-11-2006, 03:54 AM

This whole thread just confirmed my convictions that because I'm a white american I have no real culture or literature to call my own. It makes me kinda sad. It's as if I don't belong anywhere or to no one. Thankfully these feelings don't last long.

It's a good thing I write science-fiction. I can just make up my own culture.
:)

Hear hear! I think the one thing people forget in all of these culture wars is that the real losers are the "white majority" whose ancestors assimilated so fully into the "American Ideal" that they haven't bequeathed their descendants with anything but apple pie and white bread.

I think that rather than looking back to where we came from (for those of us who can't get that information) we should create our own, and more than in just our fiction.

anodyne

12-11-2006, 03:57 AM

Gay fiction is not shelved separately in any bookshop I've seen.
There also aren't any laws on the books in the UK that say that a homosexual person can be denied service, healthcare or housing. It's not as vital.

scarletpeaches

12-11-2006, 04:06 AM

Yes there are.

anodyne

12-11-2006, 04:14 AM

Let me clarify.

In the US: http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/qanda.html
Sexuality is not protected. There are laws in OH and other states which state that you can refuse to hire, heal, house, feed, or serve someone who is homosexual.

As opposed to the UK: http://www.eoc-law.org.uk/Default.aspx?page=2731
Which states that sexuality is protected. Does that make sense?

edit: for clarity. Changes in italics.

scarletpeaches

12-11-2006, 04:16 AM

Bollocks. I read it wrong. Forgive me, I haven't had enough caffeine today. ;)

anodyne

12-11-2006, 04:22 AM

:) No worries. For a writer I miscommunicate a lot. I think it's my love of emotionally charged words.

Bartholomew

12-11-2006, 05:43 AM

Mein Kampf

Unreadable drivel in English and German.

Laurawrites

12-11-2006, 08:11 AM

This whole thread just confirmed my convictions that because I'm a white american I have no real culture or literature to call my own. It makes me kinda sad. It's as if I don't belong anywhere or to no one. Thankfully these feelings don't last long.

It's a good thing I write science-fiction. I can just make up my own culture.
:)

That is sad. Why, you can't be just "white," there's no such thing. You can cross America and all of Europe and still be classified as, "white," without any other details. Have you ever considered tracing your family history? I know that bores many people to tears, but it is really worthwhile when you start getting somewhere. I reached a dead end on both sides of my family and just stopped there. The rest is pretty established. It's a bit of a hot topic online, so that makes searching much easier. Chances are, someone, somewhere, who is related to you, has already started searching.

You have the best start though already :-). You belong in America and that's very much something to be glad of.

valerie_parker

12-11-2006, 08:26 AM

Ok.... what is a 'black' book? Is it one written by a black person? One with black characters? Is it limited to those of African descent? What about people with darker skin colour who aren't of African descent?

I think that shelving in a bookstore is more concerned with enticing readers to buy books for pleasurable reading rather than qualification for awards. It is my understanding that individual bookstores shelve books as they see fit. I’ve come across bookstores that lumped all fiction in one section, sorted alphabetically. This in no way helped me to find what I wanted (fantasy). Some people sort by genre, some people by publisher.

What do buyers think when they see a section marked Black Literature or African-American Literature or whatever names you can come up with? Do they think it contains romance or chick lit or historical fiction or science fiction or fantasy or horror or action-adventures or thrillers? Or, like me, do they think the books are about *being* black or African-American or whatever? I don’t like books about people *being* white or black, or Asian or from rural areas, or from the city, or poor or rich… and all their woes and troubles (a day/month/couple years in the life of a __________. I’ve had enough of that in Literature class.) I like things happening, big things, fantastic things, out of this world things. Which is why I gravitate towards fantasy and the occasional thriller.

That’s what I would assume a separate section means – a different genre. (I also have a problem with “mainstream.” It means nothing to my sensibilities as a reader.) I don’t think shelving the books separately is hiding them. It has a lot to do with buyer perception. I see things one way, someone else sees it another way.

I think if the books by black authors or containing black characters or whatever are filed with the rest of the books of *that genre* then they will be easily found, and not hidden away, and are more likely to be read by a person like me. Now a person like somebody else, well, that’s a different story. :) If the books are about *being* a black person, and written with all these literary undertones, it should go with all the other books about *being* <insert type of person> that are all….. literary.

What I think would solve everyone’s problem… is a giant database that cross-references the topics that books deal with. It will be like a form that you fill out by checking little boxes: e.g. I want a book with a –teenaged –Scottish –male protag, which also contains –dragons, -no extreme violence, -romance, -betrayal, -body image issues. The book –must be a standalone – written by a woman –over the age of 50, and have a –happy ending.

See? You can specify what kind of book you want from any angle…. Of course, they might not be too much fun to read if you know too much about it…..

J.S Greer

12-11-2006, 08:30 AM

But then where does it stop? Should there be an Asian section, an Hispanic section, etc?

No, there shouldnt. I cant imagine seperation is going to stop though, after all, its what our country was founded on for better or for worse.

anodyne

12-11-2006, 08:37 AM

No, there shouldnt. I cant imagine seperation is going to stop though, after all, its what our country was founded on for better or for worse.

Racism and segregation in the U.S. were designed for economic reasons. Classism, and what not. Can't have the white slaves (indentured servents who never earn their freedom, yeah...) and the black slaves socializing or they might over throw the status quo.

J.S Greer

12-11-2006, 08:41 AM

Racism and segregation in the U.S. were designed for economic reasons. Classism, and what not. Can't have the white slaves (indentured servents who never earn their freedom, yeah...) and the black slaves socializing or they might over throw the status quo.

Basically it comes down to two classes: The Have's and the Have not's. Color can step on either side of that dividing line. The color that truly rules all is Green.

PeeDee

12-11-2006, 08:43 AM

I long for the day when we just write, and the truth of all things just shines through.

I know, I know. I'll go be a lunatic somewhere else.

anodyne

12-11-2006, 08:46 AM

Basically it comes down to two classes: The Have's and the Have not's. Color can step on either side of that dividing line. The color that truly rules all is Green.

Exactly.

P.S. PeeDee, I stepped in your optimism. I think it's on my shoe. Could you be a dear and scrape it off?

PeeDee

12-11-2006, 08:52 AM

Just scrape it off on the edge of the curb. We don't need it yet. :)

anodyne

12-11-2006, 08:56 AM

<looks down at her shoe>

<looks at PeeDee>

<lip tremble>

But... but... can't I be fined for that?

PeeDee

12-11-2006, 09:03 AM

Here, I'll pessimism on it, and it'll wash right off.

anodyne

12-11-2006, 09:13 AM

Ooh! Good idea.

AncientEagle

12-11-2006, 09:51 AM

As I followed this thread, I was astonished at the number of strong positions, often harshly stated, that were based on just a few facts and a whole bunch of assumptions. Maybe we need a new forum: "Opinions of the Absolutely Certain."

aruna

12-11-2006, 10:58 AM

And speaking to the original question of this thread, books about African Americans are not "black literature" as currently defined. "Black Literature" is specifically written by Black people about Black characters. In as much as Samuel Delany is a Sci-Fi, not African American writer, even though he is black, and Octavia Butler is an African American writer who writes sci-fi. Don't ask me. Just like "literary" fiction, it's a distinction created in a fundamentally flawed academic system.

I specifically did not use the term African-American. Not all Africans are black, and not all blacks are American, so it's ridiculous to use it as a synonym for black. I know a couple of black people living in America who happen to be Guyanese or otherwise Caribbean. They are not African-American, event hough they live in America and their skin is black.

aruna

12-11-2006, 11:08 AM

I also want to add, what white culture or heritage? There is none. What people consider white today was considered non-white thirty, forty, fifty years ago. Italians, Jews, etc. A hundred years ago the Irish were considered "non-white": if you've ever heard the term "black irish" it's not referring to african-irish interbreeding. Or remember the signs, "Irish need not apply."

.

That's interesting. In my country (Guyana) Portuguese is not considered white. The Portuguese came there as unskilled workers and were historically considered inferior to whites. Times have changed, of course, but there si stil that slight distiction between white and Portuguese.

Celia Cyanide

12-11-2006, 11:10 AM

I don't think anyone is implying that it's a conspiracy to Screw the White Man. But if you wish to read ONLY black authors, just because they're black, then isn't that a bit off?

How is this implying that anyone wishes to read ONLY black authors, just because they are black?

If you have a SF section, it doesn't mean that people wish to read ONLY SF, just because it's SF. It just means it's an area of literature people are interested in.

A gay/lesbian interest section is NOT a section filled with books by lesbians and gays, regardless of content. If a lesbian wrote a how-to book about embroidery, it would not be considered a gay/lesbian interest title.

aruna

12-11-2006, 11:40 AM

I don't think anyone is implying that it's a conspiracy to Screw the White Man. But if you wish to read ONLY black authors, just because they're black, then isn't that a bit off?

You've got to see it a bit form the other side,. When I was growing up, ALL books I read had only white characters. I assume you are white; can you imagine what it would be like if every single book you read had all black characters, not a single white one anywhere; or if it had a white character, only in a menial position? Wouldn't it be weird; wouldn't it make you feel angry and/or unhappy?

I used to love Enid Blyton books as a child. But once I read one in which a face looked in the window of a children's room, scaring the kids to death. The youngest child, Anne, when talking about it later to her parents said, "Oh, mummy, perhaps it was a black man!!!" I remember how shocked and hurt I was by that. And I never, ever forgot it.

So naturally, there developed a craving by black people to read books where they were the main characters, and the issues that concerned them were brought up. And then, of course, it's natural for them to want to be able to find those books easily. So I do see that side of the issue and don;t think it is racism. It's just one way of correcting a grave imbalance.

But I think once that imbalance has been corrected - and I'm in no position to say it has, but we are certainly heading that way, since black characters are surely accepted these days - it may be the time has come to do away with it.

It may have served a purpose, but the aim is for white readers to willingly read books about black characters just as much as black readers had to read books about white ones.

J.S Greer

12-11-2006, 11:51 AM

Zolah

12-11-2006, 01:26 PM

What's interesting here is your assumption that the African-American titles are "hidden away." They aren't. They're simply shelved under their own category.

In my local Borders, the "African-American Literature" section is centrally located between "Fiction/Literature" and "Poetry/Drama." It's not hidden in some dark, dusty corner. It's easily accessible and has at least as much visibility as any other genre category. Contrast that with "Christian Fiction," which is not shelved anywhere near other fiction categories, but is instead found in the "Bibles/Religious Studies" section.

Should African-American literature be categorized separately? Maybe, maybe not. But it's obviously serving a useful marketing purpose, so to claim such categorization is strictly an act of racism is ridiculous.

I used the term 'hidden away' because although those shelves may not necessarily be tucked into a dark corner, no one who is not specifically looking for a book titled 'African American' or 'Black' is ever likely to find them. Books of general fiction or genre fiction with black or other ethnic minority authors should be in the appropriate general fiction or genre section. Not segregated based on their writer's ethnicity. The End. I don't care how 'useful' this section might be in terms of marketing (which I'm sure it is - no pesky decisions based on the content of the book, just check the author photo for relative darkness of skin and you can shelve based on that! Wonderful!) it IS racist, it does encourage close-mindedness and prejudice, and it is just plain stupid.

I just can't see how a book about a person struggling with issues of race and cultural identity in an inner city is any different to a book about a person struggling with issues of body image and fidelity in a suburb, even if the protagonist in the first one is Hispanic/Asian and the second one is of African descent living in the UK. They're both mainstream/literary and should be in that section of the shop. Nor can I see how a fantasy or horror book which has a black author is different to one with a Chinese author or one with a Greek author. Or why a piece of historical biography based on the life of a black politician in inherantly different to one based on the life of a Chinese or white one. It boggles my mind.

Celia Cyanide

12-11-2006, 06:43 PM

I used the term 'hidden away' because although those shelves may not necessarily be tucked into a dark corner, no one who is not specifically looking for a book titled 'African American' or 'Black' is ever likely to find them. Books of general fiction or genre fiction with black or other ethnic minority authors should be in the appropriate general fiction or genre section. Not segregated based on their writer's ethnicity.

Can we clarify something? Everyone keeps saying "based on the writer's ethnicity." I never understood this to be about putting everything by black authors in one place. By "African American Fiction" or "black fiction," do we really mean "any fiction written by black people, no matter what it is"?

anodyne

12-11-2006, 07:11 PM

I specifically did not use the term African-American. Not all Africans are black, and not all blacks are American, so it's ridiculous to use it as a synonym for black. I know a couple of black people living in America who happen to be Guyanese or otherwise Caribbean. They are not African-American, event hough they live in America and their skin is black.

Sorry for being US-centric. There are different terms, because... as always, the academic world has to over-complicate things.

Afro-caribbean literature is different than post-colonial literature. So if you are a black, or non-white writer from one of the british colonies, you're post-colonial, unless you're in the caribbean. However, if you're from a french-speaking former colony, you're francophone literature, regardless of the color of your skin.

fun, huh?

So, "black" literature is going to deal ultimately with anything someone in the book store decides to put there. Most books, unless they have a thematic tie to african power movements in various countries, or to "black" artistic movements, are not classified that way, much less by the author's skin color.

anodyne

12-11-2006, 07:11 PM

Zolah

12-11-2006, 07:19 PM

Can we clarify something? Everyone keeps saying "based on the writer's ethnicity." I never understood this to be about putting everything by black authors in one place. By "African American Fiction" or "black fiction," do we really mean "any fiction written by black people, no matter what it is"?

Well, the original article was about books in the horror genre being shelved in the 'Black Fiction' section because of the author's ethnicity. Which makes no sense to me at all.

anodyne

12-11-2006, 07:21 PM

That's interesting. In my country (Guyana) Portuguese is not considered white. The Portuguese came there as unskilled workers and were historically considered inferior to whites. Times have changed, of course, but there si stil that slight distiction between white and Portuguese.

Yup, isn't it interesting how we define white? On Haiti, I think, you're considered white if you have a white ancestor. But don't quote me. I'm American, don't expect me to know geography :-p

Which is really jarring to people coming from America, because here's this sea of "black" faces, and they say that their island is over 52% "white". <giggles>

Even more interesting is the phenomenon of the Haoli. As you move west from the east coast, you have a different group to sh*t on. The strange thing is, the further west you go, the whiter they become. In California you have Russians, Mexicans and Blacks, in Hawaii, you have white people. Yeah, ever see Dog the Bount Hunter? That is the hawaiian stereotype of all white people. Nice, huh? Bit like the Picaninny dolls, don't you think?

anodyne

12-11-2006, 07:23 PM

Well, the original article was about books in the horror genre being shelved in the 'Black Fiction' section because of the author's ethnicity. Which makes no sense to me at all.

No, the original article was about an author who writes horror who is published by a publishing house which only publishes "black" literature. As in, all of their other titles are targeted directly toward the black community, they only publish work about black people of interest to black people.

He's shelved there because of who he publishes with, not his skin color.

:for more info, visit: http://www.libraryjournal.com/article/CA6383007.html

aruna

12-11-2006, 07:38 PM

I just can't see how a book about a person struggling with issues of race and cultural identity in an inner city is any different to a book about a person struggling with issues of body image and fidelity in a suburb, even if the protagonist in the first one is Hispanic/Asian and the second one is of African descent living in the UK. They're both mainstream/literary and should be in that section of the shop. Nor can I see how a fantasy or horror book which has a black author is different to one with a Chinese author or one with a Greek author. Or why a piece of historical biography based on the life of a black politician in inherantly different to one based on the life of a Chinese or white one. It boggles my mind.

It's all about sales. The quote form the first post, from a woman saying that "white people wouldn't buy books form such and such" may sound far-fetched, but historically may have some truth in it. Like it or nt, the American (and the British) publishing inductry is extremely xenophobic. I was told this in so many words by my British ex-agent. In fact, it was on those grounds that we finally parted company, as I did not believe her - but she proved right.

I was also told that my books wouldn't be bought by a mainstream American publisher because Americans wouldn't buy books about Indian characters. And always to put a white love-interest in my novels, so white people would buy them. Oh, and never, never write a book centred ONLY in Guyana or the Caribbean, because it would never sell to a British or American publisher. I suspect if publishers think that way, so do booksellers.

I don't think other ethnicities have had this bias; or at least, not to this extent. Amy Tan seems to have had no problems going mainstream.
So the perception IS there that if these books sell at all, it is to a closed group of people. I don't know how true this is. I would like to prove them wrong, but up to now it's been difficult. It is refreshing to read on this thread that people are appalled by this and really don;t care about ethnicity; but then, writers are a particularly open-minded group and just perhas the reading publisc isn't ready yet. As far as breaking into the American market with books about non-white characters, I was told that the American mid-west - and that;s where the bulk of customers would come from - would be hard to win over.

I htink it's different with literary fiction such as White Teeth. In the case of that book, ethnic issues and non-white characters were exactly what made it a book for the chattering classes.

I'm just saying what I was told by people in the industry.

aruna

12-11-2006, 07:41 PM

Yup, isn't it interesting how we define white? On Haiti, I think, you're considered white if you have a white ancestor. But don't quote me. I'm American, don't expect me to know geography :-p

In Guyana, if you have a drop of "black" blood, you're black - even if you look white!

anodyne

12-11-2006, 07:56 PM

Yeah, that was a big thing here too. We even had a long tradition of coming up with names to say how black you were, mulatto and what not. Then came the Harlem rennaissance, and the restructuring of the black identity.

:)

I can say, that many successful books are set entirely in other countries. Those books are usually written by authors not from them, however. I personally would love a book with an entirely non-white cast, like Cracking India (... if there is a white character, they aren't memorable). But then again, I'm over-educated, white-suburban guilt, jew-run-media chick (even though I'm not technically white, go me!).

Celia Cyanide

12-11-2006, 08:45 PM

No, the original article was about an author who writes horror who is published by a publishing house which only publishes "black" literature. As in, all of their other titles are targeted directly toward the black community, they only publish work about black people of interest to black people.

Thank you, anodyne. That's what I thought. In that case, I think calling it "segregation" or "racism," is a bit much. I see how people might think "what's the difference?" But there are some books that might be of interest to black people more than others, just like there are some books that are of interest to women, and some that are of interest to gay people.

I know people have said that if people aren't specifically looking for "black books" won't find them. But there are a lot of fantasy or mystery novels that are good reads, and people won't find them unless they are specifically looking for that genre.

a tree of night

12-11-2006, 09:07 PM

This has gone so far beyond the original question and I'm not even sure I remember what the original question was, so I'm going to make up my own questions and answer them. I reserve the right to change any and all of the answers and questions later. Just for reference, I'm white for most purposes.

1. Should books be segregated by genre? Yes. Even when it's done badly (all the time), it still makes them easier to find. I'm not interested in analyzing if the shelvers are making a socio-political statement. I'm interested in finding what I want quickly.

2. Are "black books" a separate genre? Maybe. In America, anyway, the experiences of a black person and a white person in similar circumstances are very likely going to be different. In some cases, those differences will manifest themselves in the writing of a good author. I've never given a second thought to searching specifically for Russian lit. or Japanese lit. If it offers a distinct perspective or cultural background, then it is worth calling attention to.

3. Do I think a separate section will limit who looks at particular books? Not really. People are going to read (or not read) what they want no matter where you put it. Separating just makes it easier for someone who is looking for something specific.

Jamesaritchie

12-11-2006, 09:45 PM

Maybe someone already said this, but the reason books by black writers are often shelved separately is that it increases sales. There are quite a few people who come into a bookstore with the express purpose of finding new black writers, or easily finding established black writers. Having books by such writers all in one place makes it easier.

It specifically helps the sales of those black writers who are not yet established. A reader goes to buy the latest novel by, oh, Walter Mosley, finds his book, and there it is surrounded by novels from new or lesser known black writers. It's a proven sales technique black writers, for women writers, for literary writers, etc.

And such books and writers are usually not segregated at all. The books can nearly always be found in whatever section of the bookstores they best fit in, mysteries in the mystery section, literary novels in the literary section, etc. But they can ALSO be found in a section of their own because it helps the sales of the writers, is convenient for the public, and may even attract quite a few readers who would overlook such books if they were simply scattered throughout the bookstore.

It's purely about sales, and about helping the reading pubic find new writers.

I wish bookstores would find a reason to give my novels a separate section, and I don't care what that reason is. If they want to start a Black Irish section, fine by me, as long as my books are front and center.

James D. Macdonald

12-11-2006, 10:07 PM

"Books about people like me" is a proven popular marketing category with readers. For whatever value of "like me" the readers care to assign.

a tree of night

12-11-2006, 10:10 PM

What about "books about people not like me"? That's what I look for. I know all about people like me - they're boring.

James D. Macdonald

12-11-2006, 10:13 PM

Books about people not like me -- again, a shelf of such, labeled as such, has much to recommend it. If I'm looking for a particular kind of book, it's convenient to have it labeled so I can find it on my lunch hour.

citymouse

12-11-2006, 11:23 PM

Well, the original article was about books in the horror genre being shelved in the 'Black Fiction' section because of the author's ethnicity. Which makes no sense to me at all.

I consider my series of novels intrigue, however, because my MC is gay my books are listed as gay --even in that most august catalog Amazon.com.

If the RL Stevenson had either Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde as gay characters, I can assure you his [that] book would be listed as gay genre (at least in the good ole USA) God only knows where it would land if one was a eunuch!

J.S Greer

12-11-2006, 11:31 PM

1. Should books be segregated by genre? Yes. Even when it's done badly (all the time), it still makes them easier to find. I'm not interested in analyzing if the shelvers are making a socio-political statement. I'm interested in finding what I want quickly.

The last few points like this make the best sense. In the end its about accessibility, not our sense of political corectness.

It took the last few posts to make me realize that. Im slow. :)

veinglory

12-11-2006, 11:32 PM

Yes and no, I read a lot fo gay mystery and it is shelved as mystery, I also read fantasy with gay protags by Lackey, Patton, Huff at al and it is shelved as fantasy.

Things get shelved by race or sexuality when that is likely to increase sales. Typically when the book has identity as a theme or a lot of sexual content.

If you don't want your book in that area don't have your publisher submit it to that genre. Amazon pay very little attention to how the form is filled out.

Zolah

12-11-2006, 11:52 PM

No, the original article was about an author who writes horror who is published by a publishing house which only publishes "black" literature. As in, all of their other titles are targeted directly toward the black community, they only publish work about black people of interest to black people.

And just how many other books get shelved because of the imprint of the publisher? Most readers don't even KNOW what the imprint is - that's why you don't find all the books from Harcourt or Piatkus or Tor shoved together regardless of who their author is. The book was horror, it belonged in the horror section where horror fans would look for it and could find it, instead it was shelved in 'Black Fiction'. Therefore the article is about a horror writer who has his books shelved not according to their genre but according to his skin colour.

I'm not really sure what you mean by: they only publish work about black people of interest to black people. Why aren't their books of interest to everyone? Perhaps they might be of great interest to people of all creeds and colours, if they were shelved properly, instead of being put into a literary equivalent of a ghetto...

Zolah

12-11-2006, 11:58 PM

I consider my series of novels intrigue, however, because my MC is gay my books are listed as gay --even in that most august catalog Amazon.com.

If the RL Stevenson had either Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde as gay characters, I can assure you his [that] book would be listed as gay genre (at least in the good ole USA) God only knows where it would land if one was a eunuch!

Does that bother you, or do you find it helps to increase your sales? Or don't you really care one way or the other? I haven't had this kind of 'creative' shelving applied to me yet, so I'm interested. Though, you're different to the author in the original article in that at least your work is being shelved according to stuff in the work itself, not based on your own lifestyle choices or circumstances (that'd be fun to work out: gay books by gay authors/gay books by straight authors/straight books by gay authors/straight books by straight authors...oy, my head hurts).

anodyne

12-12-2006, 12:50 AM

And just how many other books get shelved because of the imprint of the publisher? Most readers don't even KNOW what the imprint is - that's why you don't find all the books from Harcourt or Piatkus or Tor shoved together regardless of who their author is. The book was horror, it belonged in the horror section where horror fans would look for it and could find it, instead it was shelved in 'Black Fiction'. Therefore the article is about a horror writer who has his books shelved not according to their genre but according to his skin colour.

I'm not really sure what you mean by: they only publish work about black people of interest to black people. Why aren't their books of interest to everyone? Perhaps they might be of great interest to people of all creeds and colours, if they were shelved properly, instead of being put into a literary equivalent of a ghetto...

I dropped my comma. It was supposed to read, they only publish work about black people, of interest to black people.

Zolah

12-12-2006, 12:57 AM

I dropped my comma. It was supposed to read, they only publish work about black people, of interest to black people.

All right - though I still find the sentiment questionable, I'll switch my bitchometer back down to low.

Jaycinth

12-12-2006, 01:09 AM

Back when I was 10 or 11 I stopped buying books just because they had a picture of a horse on front By the time I was 15, ditto for unicorns. By the time I turned 17 a mere picture of a dragon or a vampire was no longer a reason for me to part with cash.

So I am not going to buy a book just because an author is of a particular racial/ethnic group.

Outgrew literary profiling, I guess. Now, if it were Asian American Month, I'd expect both my local bookstores and library to have a display front and center with a large cross genre selection of books by Asian Americans (Ray, Amy Tan). Ditto African American Month (Butler...Baldwin). But if I have to start going to the black section for black horror writers and the Pacific American section for Hawaiian fantasy writers, then I might just lose it in the bookstore all together.

Celia Cyanide

12-12-2006, 01:17 AM

The book was horror, it belonged in the horror section where horror fans would look for it and could find it, instead it was shelved in 'Black Fiction'. Therefore the article is about a horror writer who has his books shelved not according to their genre but according to his skin colour.

I didn't read that at all. According to the article:

The imprint targets African American readers as well as those interested in a mix of genres and styles reflecting the black experience.

That goes much deeper than just the color of the writer's skin.

It's a horror novel, and it's a novel that reflects the black experience. If it is shelved under 'black fiction' instead of 'horror,' then yes, it is true that horror fans will not find it when they look in the horror section. However, what makes you assume that the genre of horror should take precendence?

citymouse

12-12-2006, 01:50 AM

Does that bother you, or do you find it helps to increase your sales? Or don't you really care one way or the other? I haven't had this kind of 'creative' shelving applied to me yet, so I'm interested. Though, you're different to the author in the original article in that at least your work is being shelved according to stuff in the work itself, not based on your own lifestyle choices or circumstances (that'd be fun to work out: gay books by gay authors/gay books by straight authors/straight books by gay authors/straight books by straight authors...oy, my head hurts).

It bothers me in that my sales are not as good as I would hope. In part that's because where I live the large chain stores devote a scant 3 to 4 shelves for "gay" titles and these are strategically placed so that the cashiers can easily observe who browses them. Closeted gays have little choice but to buy from independent stores (over 12 closed over the past 18 months so they're not easy to come by) or buy online. I don't wish to imply that if placement were otherwise people would be fighting over the last copy of my books.
I do feel that books with gay, straight, black, Asian, and all the others should be shelved according to their theme. If a novel has as its plot/theme exclusively gay lifestyles then all well and fine, put it in a gay area. But if a novel has as its plot a man rescuing a son or daughter lost in a rain forest, and he [ the man] happens to be gay it should be in the adventure section. But my guess our creative store managers would shelve it in lost and found!

Zolah

12-12-2006, 02:01 AM

I didn't read that at all. According to the article:

The imprint targets African American readers as well as those interested in a mix of genres and styles reflecting the black experience.

That goes much deeper than just the color of the writer's skin.

It's a horror novel, and it's a novel that reflects the black experience. If it is shelved under 'black fiction' instead of 'horror,' then yes, it is true that horror fans will not find it when they look in the horror section. However, what makes you assume that the genre of horror should take precendence?

I don't care if the characters in the books I read are black, white, Chinese, Greek, or half Dutch half Sudanese - so long as they are real characters who interest me and are well written. I don't need any advance notice if there are going to be black or other non-white characters in a book, and I think putting a book which might interest black readers as well as ones of diverse other ethnic groups in a section called 'Black Fiction' to warn me that I might have to deal with non-white characters, just in case that gives me a shock, is a bit silly.

However, I (and most people) DO like a bit of warning if the book we've just started to flip through in the store is going to have people's heads ripped off by the ghost of their dead baby or show them being hacked to shreds by a serial killer with a weed-whacker.

Hence I think the genre of 'Horror' should take precedence over the what-ever-the-heck-that-is of 'Black Fiction'.

But heck, maybe that's just me.

Zolah

12-12-2006, 02:06 AM

Celia Cyanide

12-12-2006, 02:13 AM

I don't care if the characters in the books I read are black, white, Chinese, Greek, or half Dutch half Sudanese - so long as they are real characters who interest me and are well written. I don't need any advance notice if there are going to be black or other non-white characters in a book, and I think putting a book which might interest black readers as well as ones of diverse other ethnic groups in a section called 'Black Fiction' to warn me that I might have to deal with non-white characters, just in case that gives me a shock, is a bit silly.

It's not to "warn" you, in case of a shock. Just like anything else, it's to let people, who are looking for that sort of thing, know where it is.

Where it would go would depend on which category was more in demand at each books store.

However, I (and most people) DO like a bit of warning if the book we've just started to flip through in the store is going to have people's heads ripped off by the ghost of their dead baby or show them being hacked to shreds by a serial killer with a weed-whacker.

This doesn't really apply to the genre classification. Lots of books in the horror section are not violent. And likewise many books outside of horror are violent.

Zolah

12-12-2006, 02:23 AM

It's not to "warn" you, in case of a shock. Just like anything else, it's to let people, who are looking for that sort of thing, know where it is.

Where it would go would depend on which category was more in demand at each books store.

But why would someone looking for 'Black Fiction' want to find a horror story in their section, and why would someone looking for a horror story search in 'Black Fiction'? Surely if an argument is going to be made that this is purely a marketing category - presumably containing some kind of literary fiction exploring racial or cultural identity - it must be acknowledged that books which are clearly of another genre (especially such a strong genre as Horror) and only have anything in common with 'black fiction' because their author or characters are black, don't belong there. Or else pretty much any book with a black author or characters will end up being put there, and many people who would never search for a piece of 'Black Fiction' but might be very interested in fantasy, horror, historical etc. with black characters, will miss out. See my anecdote about Neil Gaiman's 'Anansi Boys' - and what about the work of Ursula Le Guin and Octavia Butler etc?

veinglory

12-12-2006, 02:30 AM

If it is a marketing category, which it is, the publisher is generally the one to determine this. There may well still be a strategic advantage to being in the black section. In most genres people aren't being ghettoised to these sections but opting into them. There are a few exception such as gay romance (black romance can go ont he romance shelves, gay rmance can't). If you are being shelved in a place you consider inappropriate take it up with your publisher--odds are they put you there. If that fails take it up with the chain.

Celia Cyanide

12-12-2006, 02:40 AM

Surely if an argument is going to be made that this is purely a marketing category - presumably containing some kind of literary fiction exploring racial or cultural identity - it must be acknowledged that books which are clearly of another genre (especially such a strong genre as Horror) and only have anything in common with 'black fiction' because their author or characters are black, don't belong there.

It has already been established that the horror writer has published through an imprint that "targets African American readers as well as those interested in a mix of genres and styles reflecting the black experience." If the book does not reflect the black experience, and only happens to be a horror novel, why would the writer even have sent the manuscript to that imprint?

Or else pretty much any book with a black author or characters will end up being put there, and many people who would never search for a piece of 'Black Fiction' but might be very interested in fantasy, horror, historical etc. with black characters, will miss out.

It depends largely on the book store, and what their clientele is looking for. If there are far more customers looking for black fiction, the store will probably choose to put it there. If horror is more popular, they would probably put it in the horror section. I've seen VC Andrews shelved under romance, horror, and science fiction. Lots of people might like her books, but would never look in horror. But it has to go somewhere. It was most likely placed there due to the popularity of the horror genre in that particular store.

anodyne

12-12-2006, 03:09 AM

Citymouse's experience reflects the biases in America pretty well, I think. I think it was miscategorized, and s/he should look into fixing it with their publisher.

Alan Yee

12-12-2006, 04:43 AM

My book is dark/urban fantasy, and most of the main characters are gay/bisexual men. Many of the gay relationships play major parts in the story. The story is fueled by these as well as the demonism and paranormal aspects to these characters and their abilities.

On the one hand, it could go under fantasy or horror. The book just wouldn't fit in with what we usually call gay fiction. Too dark and paranormal.

I write fantasy, dark fantasy/horror, and sometimes SF, and what I've noticed is that the speculative fiction spectrum has become much more open to gay characters and themes than some other genres. I can't think of many off the top of head, but I've seen many short stories and some books that included it.

veinglory

12-12-2006, 04:50 AM

I think fantasy has always been pretty open to gay characters -- Lynn, MZB etc.

AncientEagle

12-12-2006, 05:31 AM

I don't need any advance notice if there are going to be black or other non-white characters in a book, and I think putting a book which might interest black readers as well as ones of diverse other ethnic groups in a section called 'Black Fiction' to warn me that I might have to deal with non-white characters, just in case that gives me a shock, is a bit silly.

I don't understand what led you to the conclusion that shelving and labeling "Black Fiction" seperately is done to "warn you" that you're about to have to acknowledge the existence of non-white characters. I live in the middle of the Deep South, USA, and that would never occur to me. If there's something by Langston Hughes that I haven't read, or by Toni Morrison, I'll look wherever I need to look, seperate shelves or otherwise, so this has no particular impact on me personally. Having grown up with African-American (current term) playmates and friends, I'm fully aware that non-whites exist and am happy to read about them or read stuff by them. In the 21st century South, the only whites I can think of who might have the slightest concern about or objection to "black fiction" would be whites who don't frequent bookstores and don't read anyway.

But if you're bound and determined to find racism in this particular situation (and there's still plenty to go around in other situations), nothing I can say will have any effect.

jamiehall

12-12-2006, 05:32 AM

African american studies is an academic discipline that has its own departments, so I suppose it merits a separate section, but I am not sure why african american fiction should be in a separate place. I leave it to the reading public. Maybe some readers want to read fiction with black characters and they want it to be easy to find in its own section. The industry will do what sells.

The only reason for creating a separate shelf is so that readers who are specifically looking for that genre or sub-genre will find the book they are seeking more easily. In other words, will shelving it separately lead to more sales or less? An argument could easily be made to support separate shelving being either racist or non-racist, but that isn't the point.

The real point is whether the book will be helped or hurt by separate shelving. Unless the entire focus of the marketing campaign is going to be on it being a "black" book (which only happens with a few books, not just with any old book that happens to have black characters, even if they are main characters) then it probably won't be be helped by shelving it separately.

Zolah

12-12-2006, 01:27 PM

Celia Cyanide

12-12-2006, 06:04 PM

Emphasis mine. YOU would look wherever you have to look. Others, who might not have have the multicultural upbringing that you apparently have, probably won't, and might miss out on coming across these literary books because it would never occur to them to look for them in a section apparently aimed at only black readers.

I don't understand why this is the book store's problem. There are many, many books that fit into more than one category. If you put them in one section, someone who would only look in the other section won't see them there. But that is the way it works. It's not a reason why one genre should never be identified at all. The solution is to put them in a place where people would be more likely to look for them. The store is NOT going to place books in a section where people would be LESS likely to look for them.

I once went into a store that had all of Tom Wolfe's books in fiction, even if they were non-fiction, because the store felt that people looking for Tom Wolfe books would be more common than people browsing through non-fiction. Someone looking for a good non-fiction read would not have found The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test. Does that bother you?

anodyne

12-12-2006, 06:49 PM

What the hell? I didn't say that. In response to this post from Scarlet Peaches:
I once had a lesbian lay into me (steady!) because I dared to say I was against gay/lesbian literature being shelved separately. My attitude was, books aren't 'gay' or 'straight' - characters are, and if gay people want to be accepted into the community as they say, why segregate themselves in all walks of life?

I said that it was necessary for it to exist as a genre because "books that have gay characters" are challenged often and poorly reviewed. Labeling it a genre fixes that.

Zolah said it was good for books to have controversy.

I said, yes, any publicity is good publicity in our society, but that the people who have to deal with challenged books would prefer to do other things with their days than console hysterical parents who are screaming that such and such book is trying to turn their child gay. The way to do this is to make it it's own genre, which it is. Just like any other genre, having a character who is gay does not make your writing glbt, nor does being gay yourself.

jamiehall

12-12-2006, 07:03 PM

I once went into a store that had all of Tom Wolfe's books in fiction, even if they were non-fiction, because the store felt that people looking for Tom Wolfe books would be more common than people browsing through non-fiction. Someone looking for a good non-fiction read would not have found The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test. Does that bother you?

Yes, that does bother me. Maybe it makes business sense, but my feathers get seriously ruffled when fiction and nonfiction aren't distinguished from each other.

veinglory

12-12-2006, 07:56 PM

What bothers me is that as a writer and readers of gay fiction I am criticised from both sides for either choice.

When I search for hours to find gay magazines at the general newsagent or gay books at the public library I get comments and remarks from other conservative or 'religious' patrons and staff. The general shelved gay books at a used books store I work at were often rendered unsaleable or found in the trash can in the toilet (thought for those who think placing this section near the counter is too gleefully humiliate customers--it is typically to allow staff to protect those books so the store can keep stockiing them profitably). When I share my work freely in general forums I get charming PMs expressing a hope that I will die of cancer and saying I urinate on their beloved literary traditions.

Of course when frequent specialist stores and shelving sections, and label my online work so those who dislike can easily avoid it I get hassled by trendy lefties who think it is my job to change the social climate of North America by deliberately putting my work beofre those who will disdain it so that in attacking my book they can work through some of their 'issues' and become better people. That I should have to go in knowing exactly what title I want in order to find it, rather than by browsing my genre of interest. I am lazy and selfish. I just want to buy books and sell books, the moral character fo the nation can look after itself--or those who want to can go to without me. I just want to participate in my favorite genre in peace, thanks.

And yes, I and a large demographic group specifically seek out, and write, gay characters. Why not? As a reader I think having an out gay protagonist as as distinctive a quality as any other genre and one I buy--if I can find it.

Shadow_Ferret

12-12-2006, 08:06 PM

Maybe it's my own ignorance on these things, since I couldn't care less one way or the other, but I assumed the reason we had "Gay Studies" or "Women Studies" or "Black Studies" at universities is the same reason there were Gay, or Women, or Black sections at the bookstore, because minority activists demanded it.

It's sad because I look for my books in my genre section and it would never occur to me to go to the "Black" section to find, say, Samuel R. Delany, who I wasn't even aware was black until I read this thread. I always just thought of him as a very good science fiction writer.

aruna

12-12-2006, 09:36 PM

It's sad because I look for my books in my genre section and it would never occur to me to go to the "Black" section to find, say, Samuel R. Delany, who I wasn't even aware was black until I read this thread. I always just thought of him as a very good science fiction writer.

I understood that he WOULD be shelved under SF? Just as I now understand that my present book - if it ever gets published - will shelved either under Mainstream/General Fiction (what exactly Do you call it in the US?) or Thriller.
I now undesrtand how it works a bit better, thanks to anodyne. There are issues/concerns/experiences that probably white readers would not be interested in reading about, and black readers might want to find easily; and which can be understood as a seperate genre. In the case of thriller, SF etc that is by black writers and only incidentally have black characters, these are or should be shelved under mainstream. That's how I understand it now.

I am also grateful to anodyne for finally naming me the genre my previous books have been in: post-colonial! For some reason that term has always escaped me.

Zolah

12-12-2006, 10:26 PM

What the hell? I didn't say that

I beg your pardon. Wasn't this you?

Have you ever had to deal with a book challenge process? Are you out on the frontlines. Do you have patrons coming at you, screaming that you are furthering the gay, or black, or white, or atheist, or feminist, or white supremecist, or satanist, or any ist, agenda. That you, personally, need to take this book off the shelf this moment, because they pay your salary?

That appears to be you saying that you think 'Black Fiction' should have its own section because that way people won't get upset about coming across a book by a black author (or with a 'black agenda' whatever that is) unexpectedly and come and scream at you across your desk. I personally don't think that placating the sort of person who reacts like this to a book by a black author a very good basis on which to found your system of organising books. Maybe that's just me.

But anyway, is that NOT what you were saying? If not, then what was the crux of your argument? Because that's what I've been arguing about.

I can only state my (unchanging) position in so many ways. I don't think that there is any valid argument for placing books in sections according to race, and the explanations I've read on this thread are both feeble (because of the imprint of the publisher) and specious (don't bother about little things like that - racism only matters when it's major).

I'm now officially tired out. Goodbye thread.

Celia Cyanide

12-12-2006, 10:49 PM

I can only state my (unchanging) position in so many ways. I don't think that there is any valid argument for placing books in sections according to race, and the explanations I've read on this thread are both feeble (because of the imprint of the publisher) and specious (don't bother about little things like that - racism only matters when it's major).

Those are NOT the only two reasons people have explained to you. A reason I've given you several times, and the reason you refuse to acknowledge, is that PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR BOOKS IN THIS GENRE. It has nothing to do with the publisher, or with racism. There are some people who are interested in reading books about black culture and experience. I understand that you are not, but there is a good number of people who are, which is justification for shelving the books so that they can see them.

Shadow_Ferret

12-12-2006, 11:08 PM

I can only state my (unchanging) position in so many ways. I don't think that there is any valid argument for placing books in sections according to race, and the explanations I've read on this thread are both feeble (because of the imprint of the publisher) and specious (don't bother about little things like that - racism only matters when it's major).

Whether or not you can think of any valid reason, there ARE valid reasons. The group (Black, Gay, etc.) WANT their own section so people looking for those books can find them. Often it isn't the bookseller that makes the decision, it is the CUSTOMERS who WANT to be able to find Black authors or Gay authors and not have to sift through all the books hoping they'll find it. I don't understand how it can be racism if its REQUESTED by the racee.

JeanneTGC

12-12-2006, 11:17 PM

I don't care where they put my books if it will help to sell MORE of my books.

I think if we polled all the authors on the various "segregated" shelves, they would all agree with that statement first, and then worry about the issues of racism, etc., later.

It's a business. Business does what makes money. Bookstores are trying to make sure that anyone who wants to buy a book can do so. Segregating categories works, so they do it. If it didn't work, they wouldn't. It IS as simple as that.

Sassenach

12-12-2006, 11:58 PM

AmandaLCH

12-13-2006, 02:32 AM

I was reading a writer's blog (http://crimesistahs.blogspot.com/2006_07_30_archive.html) about this during the summer.

Even though the practice is meant to increase the sales of black authors, it doesn't mean that this is how it works out.

It makes sense that if white customers don't know to look in the African-American section for SF or mysteries, not all black customers will know to look there either.

J.S Greer

12-13-2006, 02:58 AM

Scarlet Peaches:

I once had a lesbian lay into me (steady!) because I dared to say I was against gay/lesbian literature being shelved separately. My attitude was, books aren't 'gay' or 'straight' - characters are, and if gay people want to be accepted into the community as they say, why segregate themselves in all walks of life?

It's human nature to to form into tribes.

If this is so terrible, where's the outcry on this thread about SF/F fandom, their conventions, etc.?

Also, there's a distinct difference between book by gays/lesbians and books about gays/lesbians. Or any other group, for that matter. Many writers fit into multiple sub-genres.

Then the tribes can never really live as one then, can they?

This is the one thing that always gets me: Everyone wants to be accepted the same as the guy next to them is, but its nearly impossible to view two different cultures as exactly the same.

We can respect a culture and their differences, which I think should really be the gist of the matter, but identifying with them is a different matter altogether.
I have no idea what it is to be a gay man, but I can still value their right to chose and their choices, and empathise with the issues that they have to live with. Aside from that, I cannot identify with them beyond both of us being human.

Kwanzwaa does nothing to bring people together (It was created in california in the 60's, to offer black men and women an alternative holiday to christmas). Neither does affirmative action. Specialized parades are the same thing, and the list could go on.

Everyone wants to form into tribes, and celebrate who they are with like individuals. That lends itself to seperation as well though, when so many people talk of unification.

I would never go looking in "African american literature" for a horror book. It should be in the horror section, with the rest of the horror books.

veinglory

12-13-2006, 03:07 AM

To the extent the tribe is also a genre, separate shelving is not segregation (also I am gender: female, genre: gay male--identity and genre are different sets that may not even overlap). We all belong to the human race, but that doesn't mean we can't belong to smaller groups and write for yet other small groups. My tribe (Iwi) has many families (hapu).

I makes me thing of New Zealander who respond to being asked what ethnicity they claim by saying: 'New Zealander'. That's like saying what shape are you: green. People can't accept their many participations in many groups without framing it as a competition or discrimination.

Online the book can of course be shelved simultaneously in all relevant genres. In the store the publisher chooses. That's yet another reason to choose one's publisher carefully.

Celia Cyanide

12-13-2006, 08:10 AM

I would never go looking in "African american literature" for a horror book. It should be in the horror section, with the rest of the horror books.

Why? Just because that's the only place you, personally, would look for it? Some readers might be more interested in reading Black Literature than horror. In the case of a book that could fit into both categories, they would never look in horror for it. Why should the section in which you would look first take precedence? If a store feels that more people in their clientele would go to the Black Literature section first, then they probably will put it there.

Dave.C.Robinson

12-13-2006, 10:00 AM

Personally I have no problem with the idea that books about "black culture" or "the black experience" should be shelved separately. It certainly sounds to me like a valid genre.

This does lead to the question that I consider far more important when looking at the idea of potential racism. Namely, are only books by black authors to be considered for this genre? If they are, it appears racist to me. If however, the genre is open to any writer of any race, color, creed, orientation or whatever, provided they write about those things then I have no issues with it.

Gay writers can write about straight characters and their experience, straight writers about gay characters. Males can write about females and vice versa. Leslie Charteris (who was half Chinese) wrote about the quintessentially English character "the Saint."

Would this hold true for the proposed genre, and if not why not?

bsolah

12-13-2006, 10:20 AM

aruna

12-13-2006, 10:46 AM

I would never go looking in "African american literature" for a horror book. It should be in the horror section, with the rest of the horror books.

My undesratnding, after reading the various takes above, is that it WOULD be shelved in the horror section.

It really is all about pleasing customers, I see now, and undesrtand it better. For instance, I love "post-colonial" writing (Ah ! that term again!) having grown up in a British colony, and especially about the Raj in India. If there were a book section "post-colonial/ the Raj" I would be one happy customer, head straight there, and buy out all their books in a week. If there were enough customers like me, sales would sky-rocket. As it is, I have to hear about a certain post-colonial book or writer and look for it in the mainstream section; and I know that it has been doctored for that section.
The colonial experience is a very specific one. So is the African-American one. And people wnat to read about themselves, about how others coped with the same experience.
It's not a perfect, egalitarian world, especially not as far as literature is concerned. Even when we like to read about other cultures, isn't it always, somehow, in relation to oursleves? Did you realise that all those multicultural books in the mainstream section are written with white readers in mind, written so that white readers can relate? Can you imagine, as a writer, being told your main character's love interest HAS to be of a certain race? That's the kind of constraint some of us have to live with. I accept it, and play the game; but if I didn't want to play that game I'd have to look for a niche publisher such as Peepal Tree Press (http://www.peepaltreepress.com/) which publlishes Caribbean and other post-colonial literature). I could fairly easily get my fourth novel published by them; but I prefered to "wait and see," play the game by writing a different book, and get on the mainstream shelves.
My fourth novel was rejected on the grounds that it would not strike a note with mainstream (ie white) readers because it is set all in Guyana and deals with post-colonial issues. Even though my editor said it was my best book yet.
So my choice is basically: go with the niche, and find my Caribbean readers; or not publish at all; or write multicultural books that cater to "white" reading tastes. This is probably the choice that African-American writers have.
If you were in that position what would you do?

J.S Greer

12-13-2006, 11:08 AM

1-Why? Just because that's the only place you, personally, would look for it? Some readers might be more interested in reading Black Literature than horror. In the case of a book that could fit into both categories, they would never look in horror for it. Why should the section in which you would look first take precedence? 2- If a store feels that more people in their clientele would go to the Black Literature section first, then they probably will put it there.

1- Because I expect to find a horror book, in the horror section. Am I reallty the only one who is "Crazy" enough to expect a genre book to be in its section of the store?

2- Thats called micro marketing, and its done all the time.

Im just saying that I wouldnt go looking for horror in another section. I wouldnt expect to find a book an european culture in the fantasy section either.

Bookstores should seperate their books by genre, so that its easier for customers to find what theyre looking for. Thats my point. Black author, white author...as other people before me have stated, who cares. I want a good book.

anodyne

12-13-2006, 07:01 PM

I beg your pardon. Wasn't this you?

Have you ever had to deal with a book challenge process? Are you out on the frontlines. Do you have patrons coming at you, screaming that you are furthering the gay, or black, or white, or atheist, or feminist, or white supremecist, or satanist, or any ist, agenda. That you, personally, need to take this book off the shelf this moment, because they pay your salary?

That appears to be you saying that you think 'Black Fiction' should have its own section because that way people won't get upset about coming across a book by a black author (or with a 'black agenda' whatever that is) unexpectedly and come and scream at you across your desk.

I'm now officially tired out. Goodbye thread.

When I was little my favorite pass time was taking verses from the bible out of context and using them to show my very conservative and religious father to prove that God was a vicious murderer who only wanted to suck his soul out and grate it over His spaghetti.

Yes, if you read only that post, then you would think that was my position. If you read up three posts, you'll see that I'm responding to a post saying that the gay genre should not exist. I replied with statistics and surveys which show that gay material has bad odds of being reviewed for library selection compared to "straight" materials. I said that often times these reviews will gloss over the homosexual content so that selectors specifically looking for homosexual titles have a hard time finding them, will often present homosexual teens as a quaint but exotic social phenomenon, or what have you. I said that moving to "gay books" as a genre has helped sales, selection and reviews for these titles.

To clarify, our gay titles are not labeled with big neon glowy stickers. They aren't shelved in the adult section (even though some libraries take the easy way out and do that) they are in the general circulating collection. Why? Because I work at an academic library, and the academic world is different from the public one. Even then, we're a public research library, which means anyone can come off the street, pay fifty bucks and borrow things from our circulating collection. (Browsing is of course free).

This statement, that controversial materials need the protection of a "genre" was met with a statement by you that controversy is good, and we shouldn't try to avoid it.

To which I made the post you quoted.

Celia Cyanide

12-13-2006, 07:07 PM

1- Because I expect to find a horror book, in the horror section. Am I reallty the only one who is "Crazy" enough to expect a genre book to be in its section of the store?

Black Literature is a genre, too. A book that fits into 2 genres could be shelved in either one.

Black author, white author...as other people before me have stated, who cares.

"Black author" is not equal to "black literature."

anodyne

12-13-2006, 07:07 PM

1- Because I expect to find a horror book, in the horror section. Am I reallty the only one who is "Crazy" enough to expect a genre book to be in its section of the store?

2- Thats called micro marketing, and its done all the time.

Im just saying that I wouldnt go looking for horror in another section. I wouldnt expect to find a book an european culture in the fantasy section either.

Bookstores should seperate their books by genre, so that its easier for customers to find what theyre looking for. Thats my point. Black author, white author...as other people before me have stated, who cares. I want a good book.

And most bookstores do. We're not saying it's right that this horror author is being shelved under black interest. What we are saying is, it's understandable if the person doing the shelving doesn't know who the author is, and it arrives in a big crate with a bunch of obviously "black interest" titles all from the same imprint... wouldn't it be logical to assume it's goes with all of the other books coming out of that publisher?

I mean, do DAW books ever get shelved anywhere but the Sci-fi/Fantasy aisle? Who you publish with is important. If I wrote thriller, sci-fi supernatural romance mysteries and published through an academic press, I would probably be shelved in the literary section with all of the other books from that imprint. Now I could say, hey, they're profiling me because I'm an academic, but that isn't really the case is it?

Jamesaritchie

12-13-2006, 07:23 PM

It bothers me in that my sales are not as good as I would hope. In part that's because where I live the large chain stores devote a scant 3 to 4 shelves for "gay" titles and these are strategically placed so that the cashiers can easily observe who browses them. Closeted gays have little choice but to buy from independent stores (over 12 closed over the past 18 months so they're not easy to come by) or buy online. I don't wish to imply that if placement were otherwise people would be fighting over the last copy of my books.
I do feel that books with gay, straight, black, Asian, and all the others should be shelved according to their theme. If a novel has as its plot/theme exclusively gay lifestyles then all well and fine, put it in a gay area. But if a novel has as its plot a man rescuing a son or daughter lost in a rain forest, and he [ the man] happens to be gay it should be in the adventure section. But my guess our creative store managers would shelve it in lost and found!

Ideally, the book should be shelved in both sections. But that's another marketing point. Whatever you think of fiction with gay protagonists, there are many, many readers who definitely want to know this up front, and who simply do not want to read such books. That's just how it is. To thenm, a book with a gay protagonist is a gay novel, whatever the theme, and they don't want to read it, and certainly don't want to buy it without knowing this before they plunk down their money.

This means bookstores, and publishers, have to make a decision. . .do they go with the writers, or with the majority of the customers? Most choose to go with what the majority of the customers want. They put books with primary gay characters in a section where all readers know what they're getting, and can decide based on this.

Now, one of my great pleasures in reading is to make myself the protagonist as I read the story. So I do usually have problems with novels that have a gay protagonist, just as I don't buy very many novels that have a female protagonist.

I will not read a novel with gay sex in it. I simply won't. So this is something I want to know about upfront, as well.

I don't know whether having novels with primary gay characters placed in a separate section helps or hurts sales, but as a consumer, I want as much information about the product I'm buying as possible, and I want it before I plunk down my money.

I prefer novels filled with "characters like me," or filled with "characters I'd like to be," and always with "characters I can relate to," just as I prefer novels in some genres more than in others.

Celia Cyanide

12-13-2006, 07:24 PM

My undesratnding, after reading the various takes above, is that it WOULD be shelved in the horror section.

In most cases, I think it would be. I think that horror would probably be more identifiable and popular as a genre, and most stores would want it in the horror section.

The horror novel mentioned in the article is not a horror novel that happens to be written by a black person. It is also black literature. So shelving it in black literature is not wrong. In most cases, it probably isn't very wise, because horror is usually one of the most popular genres. However, at my university book store, people would probably go to black literature before they would go to horror, so that might be a better place for it.

Jamesaritchie

12-13-2006, 07:50 PM

I don't understand what led you to the conclusion that shelving and labeling "Black Fiction" seperately is done to "warn you" that you're about to have to acknowledge the existence of non-white characters. I live in the middle of the Deep South, USA, and that would never occur to me. If there's something by Langston Hughes that I haven't read, or by Toni Morrison, I'll look wherever I need to look, seperate shelves or otherwise, so this has no particular impact on me personally. Having grown up with African-American (current term) playmates and friends, I'm fully aware that non-whites exist and am happy to read about them or read stuff by them. In the 21st century South, the only whites I can think of who might have the slightest concern about or objection to "black fiction" would be whites who don't frequent bookstores and don't read anyway.

But if you're bound and determined to find racism in this particular situation (and there's still plenty to go around in other situations), nothing I can say will have any effect.

"Warning" people is one aspect of shelving books separately. And what's wrong with this? People have a right to read according to their own tastes and their own beliefs, and have a right to know what's in a book that might turn them off, go against their believes, or will simply not be enjoyable.

Though rather than "warning," it's really simply "informing." We all have the express right to write whatever we wish, however we wish to write it, but we also have the right to read only what we wish to read, and to not read anything and everything we wish to avoid.

We can all write, but none of us can demand we be read, and none of us can demand the reader shouldn't know what he's getting into before he buys a book. It's easy to say it shouldn;t matter whether a primary character is gay, but out in the real world it matters very much to a great many people. It's easy to say it shouldn't matter whether the story is about black characters, but out in the real world it matters very much.

It matters because whether we agree with the reader's decision, taste, beliefs, etc., is a moot point. The reader always gets the final say because the reader is the one spending the money that generates the profit that keeps bookstores and publishers in business.

All readers discriminate according to taste, to genre, to gender, to religious beliefs, or to something. That's just how it is, and how it's going to remain. Bookstores and publishers, depending on just who their customers are expected to be, try to accomodate that customer base to the largest degreee possible.

No one seems to find gay bookstores objectionable, and no one seems to find black bookstores objectionable, and both exist in some numbers. So do Christian bookstores, occult bookstores, etc.

They exist for the same reasons separate secions exist in most general bookstores. It is marketing, and it does attact the many, many readers who do specifically look for gay/lesbian fiction, for black fiction, or for occult fiction, or for Christian fiction.

And it does allow those who wish to avoid gay fiction, black fiction, occult fiction, Christian fiction, etc., do so without wasting time and money they don't want to spend.

We don't get to pick our audience, and we don't get to make anyone spend a dime they don't want to spend. We may be able to change beliefs and market strategy in the long run, but it won't ever be by telling the reader he's wrong, that a book with a gay protagonist is just another adventure novel, that a black character is a must read, or that it pleases God if we read Christian fiction.

As for racism, I'd prefer to allow black writers to decide this issue. Most of the ones I've talked to think having their books in a separate section is a Good Thing, just as they believe black bookstores are Good Things.

But I know this. It is a marketing strategy, and one that works. And I know this. Readers, all readers, have the absolute right to know what's in a book, and to be able to pick and choose, and read, or avoid reading, any book, for any reason, be that reason gender, sexual preferance, skin color, or the kind of paper the book is printed on, as they see fit.

Separate sections is a two-edged sword. It does attract customers looking for a particular kind of book, and it does make other customers shy away who definitely do not want a particular kind of book.

In my opinion, and defintely from a marketing standpoint, both are good things.

anodyne

12-13-2006, 07:51 PM

Personally, I don't get how it's important. I read books regardless of the protagonist. I've read books with alien protagonists who are neither male nor female, (Xenogenesis anybody?)

I'm a chick, if that wasn't obvious. What bugs me a lot more than reading male protagonists is reading female protagonists written by men. If you're a guy and you want to write a chick, just don't. I don't know what it is, but you can't pull it off.

Gigi Sahi

12-13-2006, 07:52 PM

I have mixed emotions on this issue.

On one hand, I feel that books should be divided according to genre. It really pisses me off when I'm looking in the AA/Black section of bookstores/libraries that I MUST know the exact author and title I'm searching for otherwise I can't distinguish SF from Hip Hop or Hip Hop from Romance - because it's all bunched together under AA/Black Literature. Whereas, if the author is White, his/her book would be shelved according to genre. So if I'm in the mood for SF, I can search under SF. If I'm in the mood for Romance, I can search under Romance, etc, without having to know the specific author and title.

On the other hand, I feel that AA/Black Literature is a cultural specialty. Regardless of genre, a novel about Blacks will have to include the culture of Blacks as the basis of storyline and character development. So why would I go searching for stories of Black culture, again regardless of genre, anywhere but under AA/Black Literature?

Now if we were to add subcategories under the umbrella AA/Black Literature, that would be viewed as racism, separatism, discrimination; as it begs the question, why not just place AA/Black SF or Romance (or whatever) along with all the other SF or Romance or (insert genre)?

So, I'm truly torn; as there are strong pro and con arguments on this issue.

I'd like to play devil's advocate for a moment:

Say a White author wrote a Romance novel with all Black characters. The novel is well-written, honest, and an accurate (rather than stereotyped) depiction of Black life. Knowing the author is White and all characters are Black, would you buy the book?

Should this book be shelved under Romance (because the author is White) or AA/Black Literature (because the characters are Black)?

Based on personal observation, to bookstores and libraries, Black author DOES EQUAL AA/Black Literature, regardless of genre. White author equals specific genre. Honestly, I'm not sure if something is indeed wrong with this picture.

anodyne

12-13-2006, 08:01 PM

I think there is, Gigi Sahi. Because that book with the white author would have to struggle to be allowed into the AA/Black Literature section.

My personal theory is that it's an outcropping of the "teach what you are" philosophy in the academe. I can't tell you the number of times professors or colleagues have been asked to teach classes outside the realm of their specialty because they fit a certain group. Like my professor who had a degree in cinematic theory, and was asked to teach a class on post-colonial womens studies because she was an Indian woman from Kerala. She didn't have any experience in literature, and she wasn't given any film classes. Why? Black women who have studies in medieval literature are teaching AA lit classes, while white men and women are free to teach about their interests, the Romantics, the Victorian Period, Shakespeare.

There's something wrong in this. Seriously, terribly wrong.

anodyne

12-13-2006, 08:06 PM

I think the racism comes from the bookstores/publishers/marketers assuming that Black books will only appeal to Black people. Which is not true. Black literature should be categorized by its genre and not the character/writer's ethnicity so people of all races can read this literature.

No, it's that Black Literature is of interest to a lot of people, who don't want to have to wade through the sci-fi, horror, or western genres looking at book jackets to find the books they want.

How do you find a genre if things aren't shelved by genre?

P.S. Samuel Delany is shelved in SciFi... cause, that's what he writes. I've never seen him shelved in AA Interest, though I have seen Octavia Butler.

Sassenach

12-13-2006, 08:43 PM

I'm a chick, if that wasn't obvious. What bugs me a lot more than reading male protagonists is reading female protagonists written by men. If you're a guy and you want to write a chick, just don't. I don't know what it is, but you can't pull it off.

By this reasoning, writers should only write about their own ethnic and gender groups.

jamiehall

12-13-2006, 08:48 PM

Personally, I don't get how it's important. I read books regardless of the protagonist. I've read books with alien protagonists who are neither male nor female, (Xenogenesis anybody?)

As far as I've got an impression about this genre, it has little to do with the protagonists. A book isn't shelved on the "black" shelf because a main character is black, or because several main characters are black, or because a black author wrote it. If bookstore personnel and the book's publicity people are at all doing their jobs, it gets shelved on the "black" shelf because the book in question is written with such a tone and atmosphere that every page radiates "blackness".

Separate shelving is not done for purposes of segregation, but to help readers who are looking for a "black" book that is a cultural experience, as opposed to an ordinary book that is merely written by a black author and/or has black characters. The second sort of book will get shelved with SF, fantasy, romance, literature, or whatever its main genre is.

Think of it this way. If you had a novel that was both humorous and fantasy, and you needed to shelve it in a bookstore that had both a humor shelf and a fantasy shelf, where would you put it? If you were a good bookstore employee, you would put it where ever the most people would go looking for it. Chances are, the most people would be looking in whatever genre was dominant. If the book was better known as humor, and perhaps some people didn't even realize it had fantasy elements in it, you'd put it in the humor section. If the book was better known as a fantasy novel that just happened to have humorous elements, you'd put it in the fantasy section. If you put it in the wrong section, you'd hear about it soon enough, because people would be asking why they couldn't find it.

It is the same with "black" books. Unless the black elements are so overwhelming that they completely overshadow whatever other genre the book also belongs to, it won't end up on the "black" shelf. If it does, people will complain and the bookstore will lose money.

veinglory

12-13-2006, 08:53 PM

anodyne

12-13-2006, 09:07 PM

By this reasoning, writers should only write about their own ethnic and gender groups.

Nope. Not at all. I've read some very good books by people outside my ethnic group who captured the struggle very well.

I've read books by people who weren't in my specific position which captured the struggle, angst and process of children who are estranged because of their parents religious convictions (I never knew my grandparents because my mother, who grew up as an orthodox jew had the temerity to marry a non-jew).

It's just, for some reason, male authors cannot capture women. Women can do men just fine. I've never seen a guy go, hey this female author with a male protagonist got it all wrong, god dammit (at least for a book I liked or thought did it well). But, there's just something that guys don't get about women. I know I know... gender wars and all that bullshit, but it's true.

Male authors obsess over being obsessed with our weight a lot more than female authors do. I think it's because guys obesess about us obsessing over our weight.

jamiehall

12-13-2006, 09:11 PM

Indeed, it's like 'urban music'. There is an aesthetic that fans of it understand but it isn't as simple as being because the singer or listening or record company is 'black' altought this tends to be the case in some cases it just isn't.

True. If there is a musical equivalent to the "black" shelf in a bookstore, it certainly doesn't include people like country singer Charley Pride (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charley_Pride), despite him being black, and it does include Eminem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminem), despite him being white.

Neither the music industry nor the book industry separate creative material according to the race of the creator. But both industries recognize the existence of genres that are dominated by one race or another, as well as the simple fact that pretending these genres don't exist would just infuriate customers and sell fewer copies.

Celia Cyanide

12-13-2006, 09:15 PM

Think of it this way. If you had a novel that was both humorous and fantasy, and you needed to shelve it in a bookstore that had both a humor shelf and a fantasy shelf, where would you put it? If you were a good bookstore employee, you would put it where ever the most people would go looking for it.

That's a great way to explain it. I once had a women in my class give a "book report" of sorts on a black romance novel. It was not a matter of the book being written by a black woman and having black characters. The book was about two sisters, and one of the central themes was that one of them was light enough to "pass" for white, and the other was not, and how this effected their interactions with other people, and their relationships. This is most certainly a romance novel, as a love story was central. But it was also black literature.

I would never look in the romance section of the book store. Stories about romantic relationships simply do not interest me. However, the other aspect of the story interested me very much. So where should it go? Most book stores would probably put it the section that typically attracted more customers. If it goes in romance, people like me will never see it. As James said, ideally, it should probably go both places. But in used book stores, this might be confusing, as they might only have one copy at a time. A new book store can always have more than one copy of the book, and put one in both places.

Sassenach

12-13-2006, 09:33 PM

True. If there is a musical equivalent to the "black" shelf in a bookstore, it certainly doesn't include people like country singer Charley Pride (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charley_Pride), despite him being black, and it does include Eminem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminem), despite him being white.

Neither the music industry nor the book industry separate creative material according to the race of the creator. But both industries recognize the existence of genres that are dominated by one race or another, as well as the simple fact that pretending these genres don't exist would just infuriate customers and sell fewer copies.

Why then are there "Latin Grammys"?

anodyne

12-13-2006, 09:37 PM

Because the latino/chicano/hispanic/etc community has a strong self-identification with their various groups, and wishes to remain separate from mainstream English awards.

I admit I don't know much about music, but do Indian (the country not the reservation type) artists see much face time at the Grammy's? (wouldn't it be embarrassing if that wasn't a music award... it is, isn't it?) Do British artists who never tour America? Swedish, Dutch, German?

The vast majority of latin music is coming from spanish speaking countries, isn't it? Targeted specifically to spanish speaking communities?

Celia Cyanide

12-13-2006, 09:50 PM

The vast majority of latin music is coming from spanish speaking countries, isn't it? Targeted specifically to spanish speaking communities?

Yes. Latin Hip Hop and Reggeton are not marketed to the same demographic as 50 Cent, and Latin Pop singers are not marketed to the same demographic as American Pop singers. There is always some crossover, but it is primarily a different audience. When a Latin artist comes to the club where I work, I specifically go to Spanish speaking communities to promote the shows.

JeanneTGC

12-13-2006, 09:54 PM

It's just, for some reason, male authors cannot capture women. Women can do men just fine. I've never seen a guy go, hey this female author with a male protagonist got it all wrong, god dammit (at least for a book I liked or thought did it well). But, there's just something that guys don't get about women. I know I know... gender wars and all that bullshit, but it's true.

Male authors obsess over being obsessed with our weight a lot more than female authors do. I think it's because guys obesess about us obsessing over our weight.

Disagree very much with this. Terry Pratchett, as an example, writes amazing female characters, characters I and my daughter both, as women, relate to. He's a great writer, and does the males, animals, and other various creatures well, too.

Women tend to obsess far more about their weight than I think men do or men even capture.

Maybe you just aren't reading the right male authors. (I can give you more examples, if you need them :D .)

anodyne

12-13-2006, 09:54 PM

I would go see it. :)

But then again, I'm the "over-educated 'white' middle-class guilt-ridden" demographic, as my husband loves to remind me.

anodyne

12-13-2006, 09:56 PM

Maybe you just aren't reading the right male authors. (I can give you more examples, if you need them :D .)

I'd love them! That must be my problem, I loathe Pratchett. I tried the discworld series, and Good Omens, but it's just never been my cuppa.

Celia Cyanide

12-13-2006, 10:07 PM

I would go see it. :)

So would I. Absolutely. And I do. But I find that the Spanish Speaking population is much more likely to know who Daddy Yankee, Ivy Queen, and Juanes are.

JeanneTGC

12-13-2006, 10:19 PM

I'd love them! That must be my problem, I loathe Pratchett. I tried the discworld series, and Good Omens, but it's just never been my cuppa.

He doesn't work for my husband, either. But I love the man -- he's my favorite living author.

Other suggestions -- Robert Silverberg, Dan Simmons, Charles Dickens, Arthur Conan Doyle, Carolyn Keene (who was a man, aka the "father" of Nancy Drew...yes, his daughter took over when he died...Nancy is better in the ones dad wrote), Lemony Snickett (who I prefer to Daniel Handler :D ), Robert Benchley, David Eddings, Christopher Stasheff, Robert Lynn Asprin, C.S. Lewis, Mark Twain, Parke Godwin, Frederick Pohl.

Yes, most fall under humor or science fiction and fantasy. I can dig out more for you if you want, but that should give you some to take a look at.

Sassenach

12-13-2006, 10:20 PM

Why aren't there "African American Grammys"? That's a huge music category.

a tree of night

12-13-2006, 10:25 PM

"Warning" people is one aspect of shelving books separately. And what's wrong with this? People have a right to read according to their own tastes and their own beliefs, and have a right to know what's in a book that might turn them off, go against their believes, or will simply not be enjoyable.

...

All readers discriminate according to taste, to genre, to gender, to religious beliefs, or to something. That's just how it is, and how it's going to remain. Bookstores and publishers, depending on just who their customers are expected to be, try to accomodate that customer base to the largest degreee possible.
I find bad writing offensive, yet I never see a section labelled "very popular : fast moving fantasy plot, with all the literary merit of something the dog coughed up" to warn me. And I don't go running back to the store ranting when I get something labelled "literary classic" and find it isn't. It's not possible, or probably even wise, to try to accomodate everybody's biases. At some point, the consumer has to take a little responsibility. You make your picks and you take your chances. If you don't like it, stop reading and get something else. Really. Those gay sex scenes or black characters aren't going to burn your retinas out just because your eyes passed over them.

I care very little about content if the writing is good. And the few things that I really don't want to read, I can pass over if I need to. I'm not going to read a book that's entirely about explicit gay (or straight) sex, but I'm fairly confident that I could tell that subject matter from the title, cover, and flipping through a few pages before I made the purchase. On the other hand, if something I'm otherwise enjoying has an explicit sex scene or two in it that I don't care to read, it's not going to stop me from skipping ahead a page or two and finishing the book.

Shelving practices should be based only on marketing and making books easier to find (which really falls under marketing). It is not the responsibility of the store to protect you from yourself.

JeanneTGC

12-13-2006, 10:28 PM

Why aren't there "African American Grammys"? That's a huge music category.

That's what they call R&B. Been a lot of controversy over this for decades now. It hasn't changed anything. Why? Because the music SELLS as R&B and if it's working, the industry is loathe to change it.

Celia Cyanide

12-13-2006, 10:39 PM

Why aren't there "African American Grammys"? That's a huge music category.

Yes, it is. It also happens to be a category that gets attention at the regular Grammys. Latin music doesn't as much.

JerseyGirl1962

12-13-2006, 10:43 PM

Obviously this white supremacist (probably a fool) hasn't read any Octavia E. Butler.

Thank you, PeeDee. This year, I finally read one of her books, Wild Seed. Superb; definitely not a light-hearted, summer read.

~Nancy

Sassenach

12-13-2006, 10:46 PM

Yes, it is. It also happens to be a category that gets attention at the regular Grammys. Latin music doesn't as much.

Perhaps that's because there are Latin Grammys.

anodyne

12-13-2006, 10:58 PM

He doesn't work for my husband, either. But I love the man -- he's my favorite living author.

Other suggestions -- Robert Silverberg, Dan Simmons, Charles Dickens, Arthur Conan Doyle, Carolyn Keene (who was a man, aka the "father" of Nancy Drew...yes, his daughter took over when he died...Nancy is better in the ones dad wrote), Lemony Snickett (who I prefer to Daniel Handler :D ), Robert Benchley, David Eddings, Christopher Stasheff, Robert Lynn Asprin, C.S. Lewis, Mark Twain, Parke Godwin, Frederick Pohl.

Yes, most fall under humor or science fiction and fantasy. I can dig out more for you if you want, but that should give you some to take a look at.

David Eddings has female MCs? <blinks>

Let me clarify, men are perfectly capable of create believable female characters, they just don't seem capable of making believable female main characters. I love the lemony snickett books, but his characterizations of the girls as girls are bland. Asprin, same, C.S. Lewis... can't remember a female M.C. Mark Twain, same thing.

anodyne

12-13-2006, 10:59 PM

Perhaps that's because there are Latin Grammys.

Yes, that's it. Because having BET awards has significantly damaged black actors and comedians from receiving mainstream ones.

JerseyGirl1962

12-13-2006, 11:15 PM

David Eddings has female MCs? <blinks>

Yes - Polgara.

~Nancy

JeanneTGC

12-13-2006, 11:17 PM

David Eddings has female MCs? <blinks>

Let me clarify, men are perfectly capable of create believable female characters, they just don't seem capable of making believable female main characters. I love the lemony snickett books, but his characterizations of the girls as girls are bland. Asprin, same, C.S. Lewis... can't remember a female M.C. Mark Twain, same thing.

The Sorceress Polgara leaps to mind...

I point again to Pratchett, then. You don't care for him, but he writes female MCs excellently. And in a wide variety of types. I don't agree on the Snickett girls being bland. I consider Lucy and Susan of the Narnia books, Lucy in particular, to be the main MCs and I think they are well done and believable as girls and women.

I'm sure there are plenty of male authors out there who I've either forgotten or haven't read yet who also can do a female MC well. Saying that no man can write a good female lead is just saying that you, personally, haven't found one yet. I could say the same thing about a variety of women authors who can't write male leads well. That there are plenty who can is the other side to that statement. There are plenty of female authors who don't do female MCs well. All that comes down to reader preference. If there was only one type of book or one type of voice that would sell, most of us wouldn't be writing for anyone but ourselves.

Sassenach

12-14-2006, 12:11 AM

Yes, that's it. Because having BET awards has significantly damaged black actors and comedians from receiving mainstream ones.

That's not even close to what I said.

anodyne

12-14-2006, 12:20 AM

Sorry, I must have misinterpreted what you were saying. It seemed to be saying that because there are Latino Grammys no place has been made for Latin music in the normal Grammys.

Was that not the case?

anodyne

12-14-2006, 12:22 AM

Yes - Polgara.

~Nancy

True, I got through the Sparhawk saga, the Mallorean and the Belgariad (is that what it's called?) and couldn't stomach any more. Yes, I get that he has a grasp of the heroes journey, but once was enough, and twice was pushing it.

I don't know, I think I place writing about the other gender as something "the experts" can do, that mere writing mortals shouldn't try. It's rarely effective. (Though I think husband has a copy of the Polgara book, so I'll definitely read that and get back to you)

virtue_summer

01-03-2007, 10:21 AM

Okay. I can understand a section for books dealing with "black culture" or African-American history but books dealing with any other subject shelved there simply because they were written by a black author? That I don't get. Seriously, how does an argument of discrimination based on the authors race hold up? Most of the time I can't say I even know the race of the author. I pick up a book, read the blurb on the back, maybe the first few pages, and determine based on that whether it sounds interesting. That tells me nothing about what the author looks like.

TsukiRyoko

01-03-2007, 04:28 PM

aruna

01-03-2007, 04:39 PM

Shelved seperately? Hogwash! This isn't 1920. Books should be shelved according to genre or the like, not based on the characters. The idea itself is outdated, distasteful, and flat out stupid. I'm surprised a question like this even popped up in this era.

Have you read the whole thread, Tsuki? If not please do so. It's not that simple. I asked the question becuase apparently it IS shelved seperately - for a reason.

aruna

01-03-2007, 04:41 PM

TsukiRyoko

01-03-2007, 05:19 PM

Have you read the whole thread, Tsuki? If not please do so. It's not that simple. I asked the question becuase apparently it IS shelved seperately - for a reason. Aha, no, I haven't read the whole thread. I shall do that now.

aruna

04-03-2007, 08:44 PM

Here you go!

Tirjasdyn

04-03-2007, 08:58 PM

Dear god no.

First of all by genre is just fine.

Second of all why promote segregation? That so annoys me.

aruna

04-03-2007, 09:05 PM

Second of all why promote segregation? That so annoys me.

Have you read the whole thread?

IrishScribbler

04-03-2007, 11:36 PM

Dear god no.

First of all by genre is just fine.

Second of all why promote segregation? That so annoys me.

It's not about segregation, it's about genre. Just as women's fiction often deals with issues specific to women, African American fiction deals with issues specific to African Americans. It has become a genre.

Celia Cyanide

04-03-2007, 11:48 PM

It's not about segregation, it's about genre. Just as women's fiction often deals with issues specific to women, African American fiction deals with issues specific to African Americans. It has become a genre.

Yes, that's exactly it.

I think it's interesting that people can understand shelves for Women's Fiction, but shelves for African American fiction is immediately assumed to be segregation and not genre.

Layla Nahar

04-04-2007, 12:09 AM

I think it should be kept with all the other books. If I'm not mistaken, segregation was abolished decades ago. It doesn't matter if the book deals with questions of race. If we split books that dealt with issues of indifference (homosexuality, women, race etc) it'd be totally ridiculous.

I've heard this argument before - from a white supremacist - who considered black literature inferior.

I feel the same way -- shelving in a different section? I'd much rather browse by genre, not by race. If I have to browse by race, I"m going to have to put up with genres that don't interst me, in order to get to what does ... And if races are mixed into one genre, then I might get the chance to run into run into someone who's come to look for that black or chinese horror writer, and mabye could make an new friend ... I think it would be a little more uncomfortable to strike up a conversation in a race divided store ...

Tirjasdyn

04-04-2007, 12:33 AM

I don't agree that Woman's fiction is a separate genre.

I don't consider woman or AA/black literature inferior, but I see no reason to separate out books about AA/Blacks or women to other sections when they already contain: history, romance, sci fi, fantasy, comtemporary, religious, ya, horror elements.

If the story looks good or interesting I'll pick it up. And I have.

My not so humble irratating opinion follows, don't read if you are tender hearted:
Since I know more about the womanly condition than the black one, I'll have to use this as my example. If I'm fat, pregnant and tired, I don't want to have to search some idiot's Woman section for a book on pregnancy. I'll leave the store and go to a sensible one which puts the books on pregnancy with the health and medical books.

It has always iritated me when things aren't shelved by genre and in small stores with owners who will listen I have gladly informed them of such....

If I were looking for a biography of Harriet Tubman I better find it next to other biographies and not next to a scifi novel written by a black man. If I want a scifi novel written by a black man then I'll usually look for his name in the scifi section. If I don't see it there I will assume they don't have it and ask for it, I will be irratated if they send to the "black" section of the store.

The idea that women, blacks, chinese, latin american or other ethinicities have "issues" which must be segregated to:

1) get noticed
2) to be found by others of their same race so that they can speak only to them because that's all they have to relate to

is stupid.

Books, more than any other medium is a face-blind medium. I still pick up books because the story sounds interesting or that bit of history interests me. I don't care who wrote it unless they are so completely stupid I feel the need to say so in public...of recent novels I've read that equates to 1 man and 1 woman. Stupid is as stupid does. I don't care what you look like. Brilliance is as brilliance does. if your story is captivating, and your history is wonderful how could you not capture readers...no matter what you look like.

Edit:
Someone just PM'd me to ask, "why didn't you name a black sci fi author in your tirade?" Okay fine...here's my favorite: Steven Barnes.

Joe270

04-04-2007, 12:53 AM

I have read this entire thread and remain stunned by it. I have read gay fiction "PS Your Cat Is Dead", because I was snowed in at a lodge and that was all there was to read. It was okay, but I never would seek it out to spend my money on. I just did not connect well with the characters, despite the main being an author.

That's the whole point with marketing, having a target readership for quick sales.

I read "Anasi Boys". I found it interesting and very much enjoyed the main character. Still, while I enjoyed the trip into another culture for a while, I wouldn't read this type of novel every month.

I don't listen to Rap music because I don't enjoy music which encourages debasement of women, rampant lawlessness, and murdering police officers. Maybe some is great, I'm not willing to wade through the cesspool to find it. So I do not spend my money on Rap music.

Genre exists to aid customers in their selection of material to purchase. If the paying public starts to feel tricked, or cheated into purchasing something different than what the cover and treatment suggests, they'll stop buying, period. I would. I'd dust off that library card and shun bookstores.

Many of the posters, while decrying the black cause, etc. seem to suggest, by their insistance on color blindness, that the black writers can't cut the mustard without their benevolent assistance. I doubt black writers would appreciate that sentiment.

Alex Haley wrote "Roots". Anybody remember that obscure text? Not many people read it. Too bad, would have made a great miniseries on TV, too. Could have made buckets of money as well.

Sage

04-04-2007, 03:34 AM

I do not think that books should be shelved according to their authors (except alphabetically). They should be shelved according to genre.

That said, I do not have a problem with "The African-American/Black Experience" or "The Woman's Experience" or "The GLBT Experience" as genres. Women's Fiction does exist as a genre, & it's not where non-fiction books on pregnancy are shelved, but if it's a work of fiction about a woman's pregnancy, I see no problem in finding it in a section marked "Women's fiction." Likewise, if an author (black or white or purple or polka-dotted-green) were to write a novel where the central themes revolve around the experience of being black in America, there is no reason why it should not be shelved in a section called "African-American literature" so some reader (be they black or white or purple or polka-dotted-green ;) ) can find it, should they be searching for novels on that particular subject. This assumes, of course, that there are enough novels written about this experience to constitute creating a section for the genre, but I think for African-American literature, there has been. Other races & ethnicities don't seem to do it quite as much, which may account for why "African-American books" are being discussed, not so much "Asian-American books" or "Hispanic-American books."

BTW, I love any bookstore with a decent GLBT section :tongue

Kentuk

04-04-2007, 09:13 AM

I think it is a good thing that Afro-American readers buy enough books and have enough market power to get their own section. They obviously want to buy books by Afro-American authors. I'm sure they would be more then upset if all books by black authors were only available in that section.
I would like to hear from a new bookstore employee about how common it is to shelve the same book in different sections. There are some books you can't escape in a store, it's on the genre shelf, the best seller shelf, the new title shelf and six months latter in the discount bin. Have you ever selected a thirty dollar book only to check the discount bin on the way out and find it for five?

The_Grand_Duchess

04-04-2007, 09:48 AM

Thanks Aruna for bumping this up for me! I feel so special :)

I have read the whole thread. These are my personal thoughts on the matter.

It is true many great authors are shelved in the AA section of the bookstore. I belive that these people would do just as well shelved in the fiction part of the bookstore. My personal problem with that section of the bookstore is pretty much the same problem I have with BET. The books that are there are generally speaking NOT the kind of books that have been discussed in this thread.

Everyone seems to be focusing on the works that can truly be considered litature but the truth of the matter (in my experiance) is that what is really there are books like "My baby's daddy is doing my best friend's baby daddy" (ok I made that up but that is the plot) or something of equally sterotypical value. And that's what people are buying and what casual browsers are seeing. Which leads people to say, "That must be what being black is all about. . ." much like BET does.

I have actully seen horror novels shelved there simply becuase their chars are black. If the same story had been written with white people, it would have been shelved in the regualr horror section.

I really think that when books have anything remotly to do with black people the publishers or whoever magnifiys that aspect so it can be shelved there even if it doens't have anything to do with the story.

Bottom line is, people go to the section of the bookstore that they read. If a person reads horror, they go to that section, if its romance then thats where they go to find books.

People do not walk into a bookstore and say, "I'm black and this book is about black people, I must want to read that." Prehaps it had a place in the past but now people who read know what they are looking for. They know what's out there. There's no point in a seperate section for it.

Dave.C.Robinson

04-04-2007, 10:38 AM

Shelve based on the book not the author.

If it's about the black experience it goes in that section. If the author is black, it goes wherever its genre would put it.

That's my opinion.

bsolah

04-04-2007, 02:28 PM

Why did this thread get revived?

And why did someone quote me when further down my thread I clarified my position. Because I think that there's some merit if there's an ethnic theme to being categorized as 'Black literature.' - especially if it's non-fiction.

aruna

04-04-2007, 02:41 PM

Why did this thread get revived?

The topic came up in another thread. So I pulled it up. Since we first discussed this we have been joined by many new members.

bsolah

04-04-2007, 03:00 PM

Fair enough.

Just Me

04-04-2007, 07:16 PM

Everyone seems to be focusing on the works that can truly be considered litature but the truth of the matter (in my experiance) is that what is really there are books like "My baby's daddy is doing my best friend's baby daddy" (ok I made that up but that is the plot) or something of equally sterotypical value. And that's what people are buying and what casual browsers are seeing. Which leads people to say, "That must be what being black is all about. . ." much like BET does.
I know what you mean, and I have the same complaints. Apparently, if you didn't grow up in the ghetto, don't love gangsta rap, aren't well-versed in hip-hop culture, don't have any kids out of wedlock and don't spend the better part of your days bemoaning your oppression, you aren't really Black. ::checks skin and hair:: Oh, wait. I still am. :tongue

Personally, I'm kind of ambivalent towards the "Black Interest" section of the bookstore. Were I am, Toni Morrison and Alice Walker's works are found on the general Literature shelves. The books about race and sociology are in the Sociology section. And unless I have a reason to look somewhere else, I spend most of my browsing time in the F/SF/H section and the YA shelves. When I think about it, I've never actually read anything specifically from the Black Interest section because (ironically) I found most of it unrelatable or vaguely insulting. But plenty of people are looking for exactly the kind of books they find there, so.... *shrug* Maybe if they changed the name.

~JM.

The_Grand_Duchess

04-04-2007, 08:03 PM

I know what you mean, and I have the same complaints. Apparently, if you didn't grow up in the ghetto, don't love gangsta rap, aren't well-versed in hip-hop culture, don't have any kids out of wedlock and don't spend the better part of your days bemoaning your oppression, you aren't really Black. ::checks skin and hair:: Oh, wait. I still am. :tongue

Personally, I'm kind of ambivalent towards the "Black Interest" section of the bookstore. Were I am, Toni Morrison and Alice Walker's works are found on the general Literature shelves. The books about race and sociology are in the Sociology section. And unless I have a reason to look somewhere else, I spend most of my browsing time in the F/SF/H section and the YA shelves. When I think about it, I've never actually read anything specifically from the Black Interest section because (ironically) I found most of it unrelatable or vaguely insulting. But plenty of people are looking for exactly the kind of books they find there, so.... *shrug* Maybe if they changed the name.

~JM.

I am like none of those things you listed. I'm afraid of the ghetto, I don't like hip hop, my baby's daddy and I have a loving household that he supports with non criminal activity. It must be becuase we're high yellow with good hair ;) .

Where I am people like Toni Morrison and Alice Walker are shelved twice. I don't think they do much business in the black section of the book store though. And at this point what I'm saying is that yes, plently of people are looking for that sort of book. So they know what they want, put it in romance (which is basically what it usually is) are other applicaible section. There is no reason for it to exist and all it does is promote sterotypes and cut off potential readers (ie everyone who is not black).