What if...

[Akuma]

I've read some of the literary classics and I've noticed that "telling" was a lot more acceptable back then than it was now.

With this in mind, would the classics sell well if I were to change all of the narratives in those from telling to showing?

But would a classic still be a classic if it were written towards the more "popular" way of writing?

[Bartholomew]

I'm of the opinion that all this "telling" versus "showing" business is all bunk.

Go pick up "The Interpretation of Murder" by Jed Rubenfeld. He tells. He shows. He does it in first person following one character; third person following another. He mixes the all-knowing, all seeing narrator's voice with passages that do nothing but paint scenary.

The book is brilliant from page 1 to when you close it, going, "Wow," and is full of scenes--from every perspective--that are very memorable.

Good writing isn't showing vs telling. Good writing is knowing what works and where to use it.

[IrishScribbler]

Good writing isn't showing vs telling. Good writing is knowing what works and where to use it.

I agree! To modify slightly: good writing is knowing what works for you and where to use it!

[ChaosTitan]

But in order to know what works for you and how to use it, you must first understand the difference between "show" and "tell." Both have their uses, and both have their faults.

[J.S Greer]

But in order to know what works for you and how to use it, you must first understand the difference between "show" and "tell." Both have their uses, and both have their faults.

Exactly.

I think that the "show vs. tell" argument is useful for beginning writers. I also think that if you have a strong narrative with a good pace and flow, then telling now and then isnt going to doom you.

[Willowmound]

would the classics sell well if I were to change all of the narratives in those from telling to showing?

But would a classic still be a classic if it were written towards the more "popular" way of writing?

Will a classic be a classic if you re-write it, if you change the words?

Well of course not.

[PeeDee]

But in order to know what works for you and how to use it, you must first understand the difference between "show" and "tell." Both have their uses, and both have their faults.

This conversation is like a recurring bad dream. *sigh*

:)

[J.S Greer]

This conversation is like a recurring bad dream. *sigh*

:)

Youre telling me why youre sighing, not showing me. :)

[kuatolives]

Telling is fine. I don't know where people got it in their heads it was bad.

[PeeDee]

Pete put his feet up on the desk, haphazardedly striking the keyboarding jarringly, and he thought about the reasons why he felt like the conversation that was happening stridently at this time in the next room seemed like a recurring bad dream. Why the talk about the tell and show, Pete was wondering urgently? Things grew misty and he began to recollect about the time ten years earlier when he had thought about the very same issue throatily, and he began to remember fondlingly........

[JasonChirevas]

Pete put his feet up on the desk, haphazardedly striking the keyboarding jarringly, and he thought about the reasons why he felt like the conversation that was happening stridently at this time in the next room seemed like a recurring bad dream. Why the talk about the tell and show, Pete was wondering urgently? Things grew misty and he began to recollect about the time ten years earlier when he had thought about the very same issue throatily, and he began to remember fondlingly........

Heh.

-Jason

[ChaosTitan]

This conversation is like a recurring bad dream. *sigh*

:)

There there, PeeDee. You'll wake up soon. :Hug2:

[ChaosTitan]

and he began to remember fondlingly........

You're ending it there?!?!?!

[PeeDee]

Any longer and I have to e-mail someone for a password to the Erotica SYW, and then you all owe me five bucks.


:D

[ChaosTitan]

*pouts*

*wanders off muttering about passwords and five-spots*

[JeanneTGC]

Pete put his feet up on the desk, haphazardedly striking the keyboarding jarringly, and he thought about the reasons why he felt like the conversation that was happening stridently at this time in the next room seemed like a recurring bad dream. Why the talk about the tell and show, Pete was wondering urgently? Things grew misty and he began to recollect about the time ten years earlier when he had thought about the very same issue throatily, and he began to remember fondlingly........

LOL! Jeanne pondered Pete's overdone adverbs. "I don't necessarily make the connection to the 'Why PeeDee Hates Adverbs' thread," she mused aloud, as she stroked her grey cat.

The cat purred, stretched, and curled back up into a ball. "Whatever," he mumbled, right before he fell asleep.

Jeanne nodded. Indeed.

[Miss Java]

Pete put his feet up on the desk, haphazardedly striking the keyboarding jarringly, and he thought about the reasons why he felt like the conversation that was happening stridently at this time in the next room seemed like a recurring bad dream. Why the talk about the tell and show, Pete was wondering urgently? Things grew misty and he began to recollect about the time ten years earlier when he had thought about the very same issue throatily, and he began to remember fondlingly........ Miss Java wiped a tear from her eye after the first fell ploppingly into her cup of coffee. "Beautifully written," she said sniffing loudly. "Wonderfully written. Marvelously written. Astonishingly written."

She pulls out her thesaurus, tryng to come up with more compelling wordage to add to this amazing, staggering and stupendous piece of tripe...er, I mean, literary masterpiece, as her mind drifted foundlingly....

She shook her head. "Now what the heck was this thread about?"

[JasonChirevas]

LOL! Jeanne pondered Pete's overdone adverbs. "I don't necessarily make the connection to the 'Why PeeDee Hates Adverbs' thread," she mused aloud, as she stroked her grey cat.

The cat purred, stretched, and curled back up into a ball. "Whatever," he mumbled, right before he fell asleep.

Jeanne nodded. Indeed.

Adverbs tell.

-Jason

[blacbird]

I've read some of the literary classics and I've noticed that "telling" was a lot more acceptable back then than it was now.

Definitions. What's a "classic", relative to this comment? I'd suggest that most pre-1900 works still well-known would qualify as such, but would also be irrelevant to the discussion. Styles of narration have changed over time, in response to audience demand.

Examples. Both of names of novels, and of prose within those novels. For me, it's hard to have a discussion like this without referring to specifics. And it gets entangled, to some extent, with POV issues. I've always felt that first-person POV narration allows a writer to use more in the way of "telling" forms of prose. Two of the best first-person modern novels I can think of are A Clockwork Orange and Little Big Man. They work because the narrative characters aren't autobiographical simulacra of the author, and can "tell" things because we readers instantly recognize that we're being "told" a story.

In the vein of "genre" novels, I also greatly admire the Travis McGee novels of John (not James) D. McDonald and the Nero Wolfe novels of Rex Stout, both of which use first-person narrators who "tell" quite a bit.

caw

[blacbird]

Telling is fine. I don't know where people got it in their heads it was bad.

The Blacbird Condensed version of Moby Dick:

I'm Ishmael. I'm a whaler, out of Nantucket, and my ship just got sunk by a big white sperm whale because my captain, Ahab, had it in for him because, years ago, that whale bit off his leg. The captain was angry and vindictive and the whale was big and white.

The End

[JeanneTGC]

The Blacbird Condensed version of Moby Dick:

I'm Ishmael. I'm a whaler, out of Nantucket, and my ship just got sunk by a big white sperm whale because my captain, Ahab, had it in for him because, years ago, that whale bit off his leg. The captain was angry and vindictive and the whale was big and white.

The End

Schoolchildren everywhere claim Blacbird their new hero! "Saved from having to READ that thing!" they shout as they run through the streets, waving their iPods and pulling up their baggy pants so they don't trip and fall.

The New Blacbird Condensed Literary Masterpieces Collection, Volume 2, is now available. Don't let your child be the only one forced to slog through these so-called classics! It's a steal at $69.95, plus tax, shipping and handling.

(You know what? I think we have a money-maker here...call me...)

LOL! Great explanation, thanks!

[blacbird]

The Blacbird Condensed version of Frankenstein:

Victor Frankenstein lusted after the ability to restore life to dead bodies. He succeeded, but it didn't turn out so well. He was a professional, don't try this at home.

(More volumes in the series to follow)

caw

[JeanneTGC]

The Blacbird Condensed version of Frankenstein:

Victor Frankenstein lusted after the ability to restore life to dead bodies. He succeeded, but it didn't turn out so well. He was a professional, don't try this at home.

(More volumes in the series to follow)

caw

Order now! Operators are standing by! Cheap at twice the price. Make your kids superbabygeniusmonkeys and buy them this series. They will love you forever for it!

(I'm telling you, it's gonna be a gold mine!)

[blacbird]

The Blacbird condensed version of Fanny Hill:

She ***** ** ********* * *** ** *******, ** ***** ** ********* *** *** ******* if *** ****** * **** **** *****. However, **** ******* * *** ** ***** * *****!

caw

[JimmyB27]

Have you ever noticed how people are always telling others to show and not tell, but never show them why it's a good thing?

[Willowmound]

Have you ever noticed how people are always telling others to show and not tell, but never show them why it's a good thing?

I'll show you:

telling -- 'Bob was angry.'

showing -- 'Bob shook his fists, screamed at the ceiling, tore tufts of hair from his head.'

Now, which one was more interesting?

[Miss Java]

I'll show you:

telling -- 'Bob was angry.'

showing -- 'Bob shook his fists, screamed at the ceiling, tore tufts of hair from his head.'

Now, which one was more interesting?
True...but what if in your scene he looked and acted perfectly normal, but inside he was angry. Someone doesn't always show what they feel.

It depends on the situation in your writing whether it is a show time or a tell.

Ahhh...writing. Enough to make you shake your fists, scream at the ceiling and tear out tuffs of your hair. Wait....where have I heard that before? ;)

[Carrie in PA]

True...but what if in your scene he looked and acted perfectly normal, but inside he was angry. Someone doesn't always show what they feel.

It depends on the situation in your writing whether it is a show time or a tell.

Ahhh...writing. Enough to make you shake your fists, scream at the ceiling and tear out tuffs of your hair. Wait....where have I heard that before? ;)

Bob clenched his teeth, even as he forced a smile. He reached out to shake John's hand, when he'd much rather grab him by the throat.

"Nice to meet you," John said.

You? You're the pathetic little shit who's been f***ing my wife? Bob felt a vein throbbing in his neck. "Likewise," he managed.

[JimmyB27]

I'll show you:

telling -- 'Bob was angry.'

showing -- 'Bob shook his fists, screamed at the ceiling, tore tufts of hair from his head.'

Now, which one was more interesting?

But what about this -

Telling - 'Bob had a restless night's sleep'

Compared to this -

Showing - 'Bob lay in bed, staring at the ceiling. After 4 minutes, he rolled onto his left side and scratched his nose, which itched a little. 6 minutes after that, he rolled onto his back again, then onto his right side after another 3 minutes.
At twenty minutes past eleven, he needed to use the bathroom, so he got up, put on his dressing gown and padded the fourteen steps to the bathroom. He opened the door and stepped inside.....'

This could go on for a while, but you get the point.

[Bufty]

If I can clearly follow what's happening, telling doesn't really bother me unless through constant use it creates a distancing effect, which it often does.

[PeeDee]

Showing - 'Bob lay in bed, staring at the ceiling. After 4 minutes, he rolled onto his left side and scratched his nose, which itched a little. 6 minutes after that, he rolled onto his back again, then onto his right side after another 3 minutes.
At twenty minutes past eleven, he needed to use the bathroom, so he got up, put on his dressing gown and padded the fourteen steps to the bathroom. He opened the door and stepped inside.....'

This could go on for a while, but you get the point.

That steps outside the apparent "problem" of showing versus telling and steps in the world of eschewing surplusage properly.

Bob lay in his bed, and he did not sleep deeply. He did not sleep at all. He stared at the ceiling for a bit, he shifted, he scratched his nose. A little after eleven, he got up to use the bathroom, and then came back to bed and stared at the ceiling again.
This was absurd. He was exhausted. Why couldn't he sleep? Well, he knew why, didn't he, he was wondering about showing versus telling. Not the issue itself, he wondered why it was an issue in the first place.

[zornhau]

But what about this -

Telling - 'Bob had a restless night's sleep'

Compared to this -

Showing - 'Bob lay in bed, staring at the ceiling. After 4 minutes, he rolled onto his left side and scratched his nose, which itched a little. 6 minutes after that, he rolled onto his back again, then onto his right side after another 3 minutes.
At twenty minutes past eleven, he needed to use the bathroom, so he got up, put on his dressing gown and padded the fourteen steps to the bathroom. He opened the door and stepped inside.....'

This could go on for a while, but you get the point.

Interesting point.

I think the difference is that in the first example, Bob's anger appears to be part of a pressing conflict, whereas the Bob in Bed scene... well he is trying to get to sleep, but we don't care. The same series of actions might read rather well, if an overtired Bob had precisely 2 hours in which to rest before fighting Ninjas...:e2fight:

[BruceJ]

Showing would be so much easier if you could just string together a bunch of these animated emoticons in a book.

(Introduction) :hi:

(Prologue) :e2violin:

(Chapter 1 - Character Development) :e2stooges

(Chapter 2 - Dilemma) :e2shrug:

(Chapter 3 - Conflict) :Headbang:

(Chapter 4 - More Character Development [forgotten in Ch. 1]) :e2zzz:

(Chapter 5 - Revenge) :guns:

(Chapter 6 - Rescue) :e2drown:

(Chapter 5 - Resolution) :e2woo:

(Chapter 6 - Poignant and Thought-Provoking, but Happy, Ending) :e2cry:

(Epilogue to explain what wasn't clear the first time through) :e2bummed:
(Royalties) :thankyou:

(Sequel) :e2yawn:

Naw, I guess telling is better...

[Bubastes]

:roll: @ BruceJ (especially the sequel emoticon)!

[WildScribe]

Clever. I'm using that as a blanket statement to cover most of the posts here. Would you like me to show you why?

[janetbellinger]

I'll show you:

telling -- 'Bob was angry.'

showing -- 'Bob shook his fists, screamed at the ceiling, tore tufts of hair from his head.'

Now, which one was more interesting?

Well, I think the tearing tufts of hair bit is overdoing it just a little, unless he's just watched his entire village being razed by barbarian marauders.

[Celia Cyanide]

The Blacbird condensed version of Fanny Hill:

She ***** ** ********* * *** ** *******, ** ***** ** ********* *** *** ******* if *** ****** * **** **** *****. However, **** ******* * *** ** ***** * *****!

There are no curse words in Fanny Hill. It's all pretty words for naughty deeds.

[J.S Greer]

:roll: With BruceJ. That was classic.

True...but what if in your scene he looked and acted perfectly normal, but inside he was angry. Someone doesn't always show what they feel.

It depends on the situation in your writing whether it is a show time or a tell.

Exactly. Case by case is how you should take it.

[Higgins]

I've read some of the literary classics and I've noticed that "telling" was a lot more acceptable back then than it was now.

With this in mind, would the classics sell well if I were to change all of the narratives in those from telling to showing?

But would a classic still be a classic if it were written towards the more "popular" way of writing?

Is "showing" really a popular mode? I find that unlikely; surely it is at its most excessive and extreme in the monster classics of high modernism such as Hemingway and Joyce.

The natural way to tell a story is to tell it. If your average narrative tends toward the telling end of the spectrum then you can modulate into a more showing-oriented mode when you want to bring in a more intense, focused ambience. If you show everything you will be approaching literary slice-of-life horror at its most horrifying.

Telling is the classic narrative mode because it is the basic method for telling a story; all the rest is just special effects, which are a meaningless waste of time if the story isn't going anyway except into the realm of demonstrating "good writing" by showing as much as possible.

[J.S Greer]

Telling is the classic narrative mode because it is the basic method for telling a story; all the rest is just special effects, which are a meaningless waste of time if the story isn't going anyway except into the realm of demonstrating "good writing" by showing as much as possible.

Thats very true. I think the S vs. T argument tends to refer to newer writers. Most beginnign writers I have seen make lists rathert han telling a story.

John moved into the forest. He was scared. Golden moonlight rained down throught he treetops. It illuminated the path. He was glad to have some light to see by. Somewhere out there, the witch waited.

Sure, that passage has plenty else wrong with it aside from the S vs. T aspect, but there is no way that a bit like that is better reading than something showing more emotion and better setting.

John moved through the trees, doing his best to ignore the fear that was building within him. Moonlight lit his path, barely, though he was thankful for what little there was. Somewhere out there in the darkness, the witch waited.

That is in no way a perfect piece of writing, but to me it flows better, and pulls me in more.

As with everything, there has to be a balance.

[Higgins]

Well, I think the tearing tufts of hair bit is overdoing it just a little, unless he's just watched his entire village being razed by barbarian marauders.

Unless Bob was, say, an alien creature who rips out his scent-dispensing tufts to show he is happy.

In which case "showing" Bob being "angry" by ripping out his tufts doesn't quite work if you want the reader to know Bob is happy.

So: Bob was happy. He ripped out tufts of hair and scattered his happy smells.

[BruceJ]

As with everything, there has to be a balance.

Amen, J.S. That pretty much says it all, I think.

[Willowmound]

Everyone, stop showing right now. Don't ever do it again. Just tell everything. And no scenes, please. Make it all narrative.

You will sell well.

[engmajor2005]

How about show AND tell?

Bob had never been angry enough to shake his fists, clinch his teeth, and pull at his hair. He had never been angry enough to punch at the wall until he left a dent, or to throw whatever he could get his hands on across the room. But he was doing that now, and he had no intention of stopping or slowing down.

[ChaosTitan]

Everyone, stop showing right now. Don't ever do it again. Just tell everything. And no scenes, please. Make it all narrative.


:e2thud:

[Willowmound]

How about show AND tell?


Well, that's the usual way of doing it. Show your scenes, tell you narrative in-between -- do scenes for the important plot-points, do narrative for the bits that connect them.

That's the usual way.

But I think we should all just do narrative from now on. Go on! I'm sure your book will be a ripper.

[Akuma]

Well, that's the usual way of doing it. Show your scenes, tell you narrative in-between -- do scenes for the important plot-points, do narrative for the bits that connect them.

That's the usual way.

But I think we should all just do narrative from now on. Go on! I'm sure your book will be a ripper.

Damned internet. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

[Willowmound]

Don't worry, my friends in real life often can't either.

[janetbellinger]

Unless Bob was, say, an alien creature who rips out his scent-dispensing tufts to show he is happy.

In which case "showing" Bob being "angry" by ripping out his tufts doesn't quite work if you want the reader to know Bob is happy.

So: Bob was happy. He ripped out tufts of hair and scattered his happy smells.

I like it.