How many rejections does it take????

[haefner919]

Before you take your project and put it on the back burner permanently?

Novel #1 is done, revised several times, spell checked, grammar checked, and is currently getting opinions from trusted friends. I have sent out queries to agents and recieved all rejections so far....only 1 asked to see more of the MS, but ultimately declined.

I have stopped trying to make the project better, as I really don't know how to make it better, and opted to work on a new novel while I wait to hear from more agents.

So, how many queries do you send out? How many rejections before it's safe to say the work really isn't good enough?

And to answer the question, I've sent out 43 queries and have gotten 20 rejections so far.

[Simon Woodhouse]

When I was querying my first novel, my plan was to keep going until I couldn't find any more agents/publishers to send it to. In the end I found a publisher through a contact I'd made in a Yahoo writers group.

[J.S Greer]

I would say move on and let it be for now.

Did the rejections have any personal feedback, or were they generic letters?

Work on your new piece, and come back to your finished MS later. Take in the feedback it has recieved, from all of the sources, and see if there is something you can do to make it better.

You might want to post a bit of it her ein the share your work forum for feedback too.

[haefner919]

All letters were form letters except for two and neither of those gave any feedback what so ever....just said the work was not right for them.

[aka eraser]

If you haven't already, it might be wise to post your query in Share Your Work. It may not be doing its job.

[haefner919]

Thanks...I will do that. I am thinking that might be the problem (or at least one fo them). I've read tons on query writing, but somehow I'm just not getting the hang of it.....

[J.S Greer]

If you haven't already, it might be wise to post your query in Share Your Work. It may not be doing its job.

Thats a good idea too. Query letters may be more important than the MS in some ways.

Its the suit you wear to the interview basically, and first impressions count a lot.

I could be totally missing the mark though:tongue

[Julie Worth]

How many rejections does it take?

It depends on the genre, of course, but 200 hundred agents might be interested. And it takes an average of ten or so full reads to generate an offer. So, if you're not getting one full read per 20 queries, best retool your query before you run out of agents.

If you do run out of agents, rename your book, rewrite your query so that it sounds entirely different (making sure it has a hook this time!), and start all over again.

After several hundred rejections, the sharp pain of individual rejections passes, replaced by a chronic malaise. You suspect that your self worth is irreversibly damaged. It's about then that you turn to every writer's friend: alcohol.

[C.bronco]

Dr. Seuss had his first book rejected by 27 publishers (they accepted unsolicted then) before he got published. You only have 20 rejections? That's it?
I agree with the rework your query, synopsis, first three chapters advice.

[WildScribe]

Thats a good idea too. Query letters may be more important than the MS in some ways.

Its the suit you wear to the interview basically, and first impressions count a lot.

I could be totally missing the mark though:tongue

Great way to put that.

[J.S Greer]

Dr. Seuss had his first book rejected by 27 publishers (they accepted unsolicted then) before he got published. You only have 20 rejections? That's it?
I agree with the rework your query, synopsis, first three chapters advice.

Good advice, but wouldnt you want the rest of the chapters to be as spot on as the first three? I know the answer is yes, but im just saying that rejection can come at chapter four just as easily.

Maybe they would be willing to work with you though having shown promise with the first three...

[Zolah]

Dr. Seuss had his first book rejected by 27 publishers (they accepted unsolicted then) before he got published. You only have 20 rejections? That's it?
I agree with the rework your query, synopsis, first three chapters advice.

What an amazing coincidence! I too was rejected 27 times on my first book! Although...it's still not published...Hmmm.

[Sassenach]

Haefner:

I read your query letter in SYW and that might be what's causing you problems.

[UrsusMinor]

And it takes an average of ten or so full reads to generate an offer.

On the novel that landed me an agent, I got offers with my first full reads...but getting the requests for the ms. involved a lot of rejections!

The query letter may be a problem. In fact, thought I will probably be flamed for saying this, it may be an insurmountable problem, since a) the skills in writing a gripping query letter are different from those involved in writing a novel, and b) many novels simply don't 'query' well.

I met a writer (she works in advertising, by the way) who probably gets one manuscript request for every two queries she sends out. I doubt that she will ever be represented, because she can't write a novel to save her life. But, boy, can she write exciting queries!

I've heard one too many agents say things like, "Why should we assume you can write a gripping work of fiction if you can't write a compelling query letter?"

This reasoning is identical to: Why should we assume Yo-Yo Ma can play the cello if he can't even play the harmonica?

Some agents (Miss Snark is one) like to see opening pages because they know it is all about the writing--the writing in the novel.

Consider attending a conference where editors or agents do 'advance reads.' This may give you a clue as to whether your opening pages are ready for prime time.

[UrsusMinor]

I do digress, don't I?

Back to your original question: There is a big difference between putting something on the back burner "permanently" and setting it aside as something to come back to in a year or two (or five).

Screenwriters (I know more than a few) don't view unsold scripts as smelly failures to be jettisoned, but rather as resources. Screenwriters have the concept of a 'trunk' where unsold scripts are stored for the future. A positive Hollywood rejection often runs, "Great script, but can't use it right now. I'd love to see what else you have in your trunk, though..."

My fourth novel was the first one to sell. I expect to publish the first three some day. But now that they've had time to age in the trunk, I see quite a few things I'd do differently...

So: Maybe your problem is your query. Maybe your novel simply isn't up to snuff. Or maybe you need to put your novel in the trunk and come back much later.

But "permanently" is going a bit far.

[janetbellinger]

It depends how stubborn you are. I'm pretty tenacious and I don't give up easily.

[Ken Schneider]

Rejections from an agent, or a publisher?

I'd send my ms to as many publishers or agents as you can stand.
If it is your first novel, you have a long road ahead.

It takes ten years as an average for a writer to be good enough at their craft to be published.

Plan to start having really good results after you've written a million words, or ten complete one hundred thousand word novels.

I've been trying for five years, and am working on my fifth complete hundred thou novel.

I've learned alot, and I can see that each ms is much better than the last. I've re-read my first, and just shook my head at the writing.

If you want to be a good golfer, you'd play everyday, a piano player, same, a writer...

[Gillhoughly]

Before you take your project and put it on the back burner permanently?

According to the Guinness Book of Records (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinness_Book_of_Records) Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is the bestselling novel rejected by the greatest number of potential publishers at 121 times. (Wikipedia)

Clearly the writer sent it out one more time than it was rejected.

Put your opus on a shelf, in sight, work on something else.

In the two-year span of shopping my 1st novel I wrote two others, and rewrote the 1st in-between them. And rewrote. And got feedback. And read other books. And rewrote!

When I put the "The End" on the first draft of #1 I thought I was done with it, that it was as perfect as it could ever be. Happily, more writing, reading, and experience proved me wrong. It's been 16 years since it came out and I would still like to seriously fiddle with it.

[haefner919]

Very good advice Ken.... I plan to keep on writing and learning as much as I can. I've signed up for an online course and try to do as much reading as I can- online sites and books I find at the library or book store. The hard part is when I read conflicting advice.

[haefner919]

Okay, so I guess "permanently" is a bit drastic...I can always set it aside and come back to it later....

[Homer]

On the novel that landed me an agent, I got offers with my first full reads...but getting the requests for the ms. involved a lot of rejections!


I really wish Julie Worth would stop repeating that ten full reads per offer canard because it's extremely misleading. Maybe that's her exerience, but some people get an offer on the first full read, and others don't get any after ten or twenty. It's impossible to generalize. For one thing, if you're previously published many agents will look at your full without even seeing a partial first. If you are selling YA or romance an agent will be more likely to look at a full off of your bare query. Some categories like literary or non-Romance historical fiction have a lower rate of requests for fulls, especially for unpulished authors. The generalization of an offer per ten fulls is worthless. Somewhere she posted her methodology and you can see how unreliable this is on its face. Any decent lawyer would have a field day cross examining her on her methodology.

[IrishScribbler]

Before you take your project and put it on the back burner permanently?

And to answer the question, I've sent out 43 queries and have gotten 20 rejections so far.

Jasper Fforde received 76 rejections before pubishing his first book, and now he's a bestselling author in the UK and the US.

[JBI]

Er, Kurt Vonnegut got something like 23 rejections for Cat's Cradle. Sold it to another publisher and what do you know, it was a best seller. Keep trying.

[Julie Worth]

...but some people get an offer on the first full read, and others don't get any after ten or twenty.

Exactly, that's why I said it was an average. Is "average" so hard to understand? Some will get an offer after one read, some after twenty, some never. I think everyone will agree the average is more than one and less than one hundred. There's no way an average of ten is "extremely misleading".

The point in saying this is that some people think that once they get a full read, that's it, they're going to get an offer. But no, the likelihood is that it's not going to happen that first time, or the second or third times, even if for some people it did happen that way. So the logical thing is to keep querying, assuming that the agent will pass, because most likely she will.

And in saying it takes ten reads per offer (which is no more than an estimate that I have no intention of defending in court) my assumption is that the author was not previously published. Agents like Peter Miller have sold books without reading them, selling them based on the author's previous work. Once you're published and done well, you're in a different world, statistically.

[Alex Bravo]

Great comments by Ken.

I've been working on the same manuscript for 12 years now, although, twice I trashed it completely and started from scratch. I knew the concept was good, because I got several requests to read it, but I kept getting rejected.

Now, if I go back and reread the old junk, it is exactly that, JUNK! I can't believe I actually thought my old stuff was good. I can't believe I actually submitted it! I would be embarrassed if I sent that out now. But I needed all those years to learn the craft.

Recently, after a few submissions, I found an agent. So to answer the question, how many rejections? I would guess I've been rejected over 80 times.

Alex

PS: Audio books really helped me. Stephen King talked about audio books in his writing book, so I tried it. The key to good writing is reading, reading, reading, but sometimes we don't have time. I realized that I was driving 45 minutes to work every day, so instead of the radio, I began listening to books. Now I listen to a book a week. When the traffic gets bad, I don't really care because I'm usually enjoying a good book. Once, when we had an ice storm hit my city and it took me three hours to drive home, my wife asked if I was worried or frustrated. I said no. I was too busy enjoying Harry Potter!

[ORION]

I think people get confused between first novel written and first published novel. The novel that got me representation was my third and was sold a week after it was shopped. My agent is hands on and spent four months on tweaking and preparing it. I now know what I need to do to my other three manuscripts to get them ready to be shopped (in another year or so). I think this has been said over and over. Start your second novel and keep writing.
Someday maybe my first will sell I don't know. It looks worse over time not better.
JMHO

[karo.ambrose]

If you do run out of agents, rename your book, rewrite your query so that it sounds entirely different (making sure it has a hook this time!), and start all over again.


So you CAN resubmit to agents!!! You just have to be a lil' sneaky about it, huh?

I did the same thing with my MS. I submitted 26 query letters out to agents and only got 1 request. Then I posted it in SYW and discovered it was riddled with errors. So I completely retooled it and made it 100x better. I wanted to resubmit to some of those agents, I just wasn't sure how to go about doing it.

[blacbird]

Okay, so I guess "permanently" is a bit drastic...

I dunno. I'm giving it some thought.

caw

[blacbird]

Jasper Fforde received 76 rejections before pubishing his first book, and now he's a bestselling author in the UK and the US.

And he can't even spell "Ford".

caw

[triceretops]

Sheeze. I left a dozen novels behind in my previous writing stint 1988-1992. I had an agent who only liked two of them. After two years, no sale, but a close option to Universal. I did switch to short stories and non-fiction books and really did a bang up job there. But no novels.

Started writing again two years ago exactly. I've finished four novels and one non-fiction book. But I wanted that novel credit bad. Sent out my book#1 45-50 times and three people read the partial. No full quests. The only comment came from one powerhouse agent--"Didn't believe the world building so I was inclined to stop." My own agent said, "Didn't rock my boat." He did not read whole thing either. Last week two women at a small press read the first three and said "Wow, you really have something here; send the full." Another publisher and her assisstant read the full and offered a contract.

Let's see. A total of four female editors (at two houses) read partials and fulls and felt basically that it rocked. I thought it was good and that totals five. Two experienced male agents gave it a ho-hum--not really ready. So that's five of us against two of them.

Who's right?

Confused yet? I'm just betting that if my agent and the other agent read it all the way through they might have found the pace fast and the plot heart-thumping, and would have forgiven the clumsy beginning chapters (that's if I'm to believe their judgement, and boy I do lean on my agent). And that's one of the biggest problems--getting the full read-through. And it's frustrating. But in this situation I'm stuck questioning my own talent, and suspect that somebody is fibbing to me, only I can't figure out who! I'm sure you've had these types of feelings with something similar. We all say things are subjective but sometimes you want to go out and hang yourself.

I'm one of the spokemen that now believe that the query is the most important piece of paper, WITH the addition of five to ten pages of prose.
The query cannot demonstrate characterization, atmosphere, voice or writing talent. The query can hook right off the bat with a great, I call it "face slap" sentence or line meant to draw you in. In that line, or small paragraph is the most important aspect to the query--the gimmick, or premise, or concept. Sometimes it's presented like a question, but it is always something that raises an eyebrow. The rest of the query can intro your main characters, the force that they must overcome, and you can show the basic structure of the plot. Hook the end by leaving it unresolved. Make every word pay for itself.

The synopsis is where you 'layer' the hell out of the query with some subplots, red herrings, or twists. You can do this in a three-acts kind of way. And this is where you show the resolution or ending--bitter sweet, tragic, or HEA. You want a book that moves simply in linear fashion from A to B without too much fuss? Be prepared for massive rejections. Reach...push the genre and be willing to take horrendous chances. Be as different and unique as you possibly can. SOS is coming across editor's desks and they're really tired of it, and that's why we're falling in droves to rejection. "Commercial" doesn't mean a tale that is easily readable and enjoyable for the masses who are willing to spend money on it. "Commercial" means something stunning, unusual and fresh. Make every word pay for itself.

So how many times do you submit until you give up? I dunno, I went against heavy odds and nearly burned that book#1. You make your query and synopsis sparkle so that partials will be requested. You polish those three chapters by showing ever increasing tension. And you work just just as hard on the full, so it might ultimately catch a buyer. And again, make every word pay for itself.

If you've got your whole package together, and you know it, and so does your agent or a mess of beta readers, you send that pup out until hell won't have it or you've run the entire course and there's nothing left. Nothing. Zippo. Otherwise you'll never know if that sale was right around the corner and it'll haunt you the rest of your life.

Tri

[gvm]

The query cannot demonstrate characterization, atmosphere, voice or writing talent. The query can hook right off the bat with a great, I call it "face slap" sentence or line meant to draw you in. In that line, or small paragraph is the most important aspect to the query--the gimmick, or premise, or concept. Sometimes it's presented like a question, but it is always something that raises an eyebrow. The rest of the query can intro your main characters, the force that they must overcome, and you can show the basic structure of the plot. Hook the end by leaving it unresolved. Make every word pay for itself.

The synopsis is where you 'layer' the hell out of the query with some subplots, red herrings, or twists. You can do this in a three-acts kind of way. And this is where you show the resolution or ending--bitter sweet, tragic, or HEA. You want a book that moves simply in linear fashion from A to B without too much fuss? Be prepared for massive rejections. Reach...push the genre and be willing to take horrendous chances. Be as different and unique as you possibly can. SOS is coming across editor's desks and they're really tired of it, and that's why we're falling in droves to rejection. "Commercial" doesn't mean a tale that is easily readable and enjoyable for the masses who are willing to spend money on it. "Commercial" means something stunning, unusual and fresh. Make every word pay for itself.

Tri

This is excellent advice. I'm in the same situation as haefner, and I believe my problem to some extent is the "book that moves simply in linear fashion from A to B without too much fuss". Well, back to the MS to see if I can improve the story :(

[Julie Worth]

The query can hook right off the bat with a great, I call it "face slap" sentence or line meant to draw you in. In that line, or small paragraph is the most important aspect to the query--the gimmick, or premise, or concept. Sometimes it's presented like a question, but it is always something that raises an eyebrow...


Reach...push the genre and be willing to take horrendous chances. Be as different and unique as you possibly can. SOS is coming across editor's desks and they're really tired of it, and that's why we're falling in droves to rejection. "Commercial" doesn't mean a tale that is easily readable and enjoyable for the masses who are willing to spend money on it. "Commercial" means something stunning, unusual and fresh.

This is terrific advice, tri. Thanks.

[Julie Worth]

So you CAN resubmit to agents!!! You just have to be a lil' sneaky about it, huh?

I did the same thing with my MS. I submitted 26 query letters out to agents and only got 1 request. Then I posted it in SYW and discovered it was riddled with errors. So I completely retooled it and made it 100x better. I wanted to resubmit to some of those agents, I just wasn't sure how to go about doing it.

After six months they won't remember it anyway, most of them. And it's always fair to requery those that didn't respond at all. Could be they didn't get it.

[spacejock2]

And he can't even spell "Ford".

caw

This from a 'blacbird'? ;-)

[UrsusMinor]

Some anecdotal stats I've gathered (the plural of 'anecdote' is 'data'):

Sue Grafton (A is for Alibi, etc.): Completed four novels before getting published. Novels one, two, three, six, and seven remain unpublished.
Stephen King (Do I need to tell you?): Fourth novel was the first accepted for publication.
John Gardner (Grendel, Sunlight Dialogues, The Art of Fiction, etc.): Unpublished for ten years; had five completed novels when he finally found an agent.
Jonathan Kellerman (Bestselling Alex Delaware series): Eight novels still unpublished.
George V. Higgins (Friends of Eddie Coyle, etc.): Wrote for seventeen years before a novel was accepted for publication. The novel accepted was his fifteenth.
Michael Connelly (Blood Work, City of Bones, etc.): Not published until third novel.
Robert Olen Butler (Pulitzer Prize for short fiction): Five unpublished novels, forty unpublished short stories, twelve unproduced plays. (He claims, by the way, that all of the unpublished works are bad.)
John Nichols (The Sterile Cuckoo, Milagro Beanfield War): Has written over eighty books, of which only fifteen have been published.
Lawrence Block (Bestselling Matt Scudder series): Published on the order of fifty novels, most of them soft-core porn for a flat fee, before his breakout bestseller “Eight Million Ways to Die.” Began writing full-time at around age 20, but didn’t achieve financial success until well into his forties. Also interesting to note: “Eight Million Ways to Die” was the fourth in a series that the publisher had dropped earlier owing to apparent lack of interest on the part of the public.
================================================== =============
Trivia Question: What two things do the following books have in common?


“Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenence” by Robert M. Pirsig
“M*A*S*H” by Richard Hooker
“The Clan of the Cave Bear” by Jean Auel
“Kon-Tiki” by Thor Heyerdahl
“Jonathan Livingston Seagull” by Richard Bach
“The Postman Always Rings Twice” by James M. Cain
“Watership Down” by Richard Adams
“Auntie Mame” by Patrick Dennis
“The Peter Principle” by Laurence Peter
“Dune” by Frank HerbertAnswers:

All were bestsellers in one or more major markets.2. All were rejected by twenty or more publishers before they were accepted. (Pirsig’s book was rejected 121 times, which must set a record.)

[janetbellinger]

Thanks Ursus. You have cheered me up.

[Alex Bravo]

Great stats, Ursus. That's the stuff I like to know when I'm wondering why it's taking so long!!!