What type of higher education should a fiction writer pursue?

[Who Watches the...]

Can anyone elaborate on the difference between an english major with an emphasis on literature versus an english major with an emphasis on rhetoric versus a major in linguistics?

What's the opinion on MFAs? I hear they're highly selective.

[smiley10000]

Being an English major will allow you to read and study the classics. This can be useful to a point, although people don't write the way they wrote 200 years ago...

Linguistics is the study of the construction of language. It is more the science of language and how it works. I have a BA in linguistics. Other than the grammar stuff. I don't believe it will really help you are a writer in any way. (although sociolinguistics deals with how people speak and use language. that may be interesting to pursue.)

I have heard MFA programs are a waste of money. I think it depends on the program you get into. But, that is graduate work. Are you looking for your first degree? I would recommend taking something of interest to 'expand your horizons' Take anthropology or philosophy or history. Something that can tell you about life. It will give you stuff to write about later on.

Miss. Snark recommended this site: Laura Lippman (http://www.lauralippman.com/). She had some interesting comments on university and what to do.
Good Luck!
:)10000

ETA: I forgot to name my url (blush)

[Medievalist]

The rhetoric emphasis is usually designed for people planning to teach. I think, speaking as a long term English Major (under grad through grad), I'd suggest literature, and do at least one class on rhetorical analysis or classic rhetoric, and try to take advantage of writing classes that are workshops in nature.

[Jamesaritchie]

I majored in English Lit., but there was still a fair amount of rhetoric and linguistics study. The emphais simply changes, particular in the final two years.

All three teach grammar, but English Lit has a focus on reading and writing, and generally includes, or qualifies you for, advanced creative writing classes, and is a better lead in to an MFA. Some very good creative writing courses have a prerequisite of of an English Lit. major.

Like anything else, MFA programs range from horrible to wonderful, but they are getting better, and more and more MFA programs are placing an emphasis on real world writing and publishing, rather than the old emphasis of strictly "literary" writing that may not get you far.

An MFA program also stands you in good stead if you want to be an editor.

In my opinion, teh real value of a good English Lit. program is that you WILL read and study a ton of great literature, or you won't pass, and you will have opportunity to take some very useful creative writing courses, and you will spend a lot of time parking your butt in a chair and writing.

An MFA is something you'll decide on later, maybe in your junior year, and at that time you'll know far more about MFA programs, and whether you can find one right for you.

[Matt Lipp]

I'm focusing on English Literature right now, but I'm not sure if I'm going to grad school or law school.

[CrankItTo11]

Study what you are passionate about... you'll find a way to incorporate it into your writing. I have an MS in Anthropology, which fed my fascination for people and prehistory.

[PeeDee]

I took English with a minor in Graphic Design.

Hell, take architecture if you want. Having an English degree doesn't hurt, but it doesn't help hugely, and no matter what you study it'll eventually wind up in your writing somewhere.

(Although I have yet to write a story with a graphic designer in it. How boring. He lined up the cut box, praying that he wasn't anti-aliasing the picture prematurely......)

[greatfish]

I would say that English Lit. would be the most useful emphasis for an English major who wants to write. It's unbelievably important for a writer to familiarize themselves with classic literature. You'd have a hard time pointing out a great writer who wasn't extremely familiar with his predecessors and the accomplishments they have made.
As for the value of the MFA program, the subject is hotly debated in the writing community and has been for some time. My personal experience with it is that it is mainly meant for writers who want to teach writing, and not for writers who are looking to improve their own writing. As one MFA student once phrased it to me, "The MFA program is where mediocre writers teach students how to write mediocre fiction so they can teach other students how to write mediocre fiction." Of course this is just one viewpoint. Like I said, the value of the MFA program is highly debated right now, mainly because the MFA is still relatively new. It's still too soon to tell if the great writers of tomorrow are going to be MFA graduates, but I wouldn't count on it.

[C.bronco]

Yep. Major in what you want, buy a copy of Strunk & White's The Elements of Style, read a lot and you'll be good to go.

[Euan H.]

Can anyone elaborate on the difference between an english major with an emphasis on literature versus an english major with an emphasis on rhetoric versus a major in linguistics?
I have an MA in Linguistics, and I'm working on a doctorate. Getting a degree in the field will probably not directly help you write fiction.

OTOH though, it probably will sensitize you to language in a way that most other majors won't, especially if you get a detailed look at discourse analysis or a functional grammar. I guess it could also be helpful if you are writing fantasy and you want to create a less-silly-than-usual fantasy language.

[Namatu]

I agree with CrankItTo11. Study what you're passionate about. I've always been interested in too many areas to select a master's program, but all of the reading I've done over the years in these areas definitely informs my writing. A degree program in one of those areas would be awesome. If only I could determine which one!

[anodyne]

I would say, study what you find interesting. The first two years of college are basically a chance to find out what does interest you. So go undeclared major, take the general education requirements, and if you still think English is the way to go, then do that.

Literature is fine, but just be aware that you'll have to read a lot of things that you don't particularly like, and a lot of those things are in the canon. There's nothing wrong with the canon, per se, at least from a non-theoretical standpoint.

That's another thing, literature majors are required to take several classes in theory, and then apply that theory to everything they write about literature. For many people, that's a deal-breaker (I majored in Lit minored in Theory, so your mileage may vary). I went on to earn my M.L.I.S.

However, during my undergrad I discovered that I adored Bio-chemistry, but I was already a third of my way through my lit degree, and decided to put it on hold. Probably not the best idea, B.A.s aren't exactly employable at the moment, luckily, M.L.I.S.s are.

[Jamesaritchie]

I took English with a minor in Graphic Design.

Hell, take architecture if you want. Having an English degree doesn't hurt, but it doesn't help hugely, and no matter what you study it'll eventually wind up in your writing somewhere.

(Although I have yet to write a story with a graphic designer in it. How boring. He lined up the cut box, praying that he wasn't anti-aliasing the picture prematurely......)

It always amazes me when I hear someone say a degree in English doesn't help hugely. It helps tremendously, at least a degree in English Lit. does.

Such a degree isn't a requirement, but it's astounding how many successful writers have such a degree. The percentage is pretty impressive, no matter how you look at it.

And if you don't get such a degree, you're probably still going to have to learn everything someone with such a degree knows, and you're still going to have to read nearly all teh books someone with such a degree reads, and you're going to have to spend as much time writing as someone with such a degree writes.

This is darned difficult to do when you spending the majority of your time getting a degree where reading and writing aren't requirements.

[PeeDee]

Not if you enjoy it.

And by "doesn't help hugely," I meant that it's not going to magically make you publishable, or a good writer. It will certainly help you on your way more than getting an advanced degree in spot welding.

It helps the same way writer's workshops help: It gives you a reason to focus on this subject, which does take a fair amount of focus. It gives you an excuse to read good books, something I'm always in favor of.

[Anonymisty]

I graduated with a Bachelor's in Modern Languages (French, Spanish and German) and a minor in Philosophy and Religion.

I often joke that I write now because I couldn't get a job doing anything else. *grin*

[JimmyB27]

It's unbelievably important for a writer to familiarize themselves with classic literature.

I have to disagree. I think it's far, far more important to familiarise yourself with contemporary literature.
If you're training to be a doctor, you don't learn about leech application, if you're training to be a soldier, you don't learn musketry drills.

[PeeDee]

I have to disagree. I think it's far, far more important to familiarise yourself with contemporary literature.
If you're training to be a doctor, you don't learn about leech application, if you're training to be a soldier, you don't learn musketry drills.

True, but as a writer, you learn a lot by reading John Steinback, Charles Dickens, Daniel Pinkwater, William Shakespear, and the other classics... :)

[JimmyB27]

True, but as a writer, you learn a lot by reading John Steinback, Charles Dickens, Daniel Pinkwater, William Shakespear, and the other classics... :)

True, but as a writer, you learn a lot by reading Iain Banks, Terry Pratchett, Robin Hobb, John Irving and the other contemporaries.

I just think that there's this kind of snobbery surrounding the so called classics, and they are too often simply assumed to be inherently better than anything written more recently.

[PeeDee]

True, but as a writer, you learn a lot by reading Iain Banks, Terry Pratchett, Robin Hobb, John Irving and the other contemporaries.

I just think that there's this kind of snobbery surrounding the so called classics, and they are too often simply assumed to be inherently better than anything written more recently.

I didn't say you shouldn't read Terry Pratchett, Robin Hobb, et al.. I said you should also read the classics. If you intend to write, then you should be reading everything with words on it anyway.

[Sassenach]

How did Daniel Pinkwater end up between Dickens and Shakepeare??

[PeeDee]

Because I'm reading Chicago Days & Hobo Nights, enjoying it immensely, and wondered if anyone would notice if I stuck his name there. :)

[maestrowork]

I'm a practical person. I went to college for computers. But I took creative writing classes.

[Medievalist]

I have to disagree. I think it's far, far more important to familiarise yourself with contemporary literature.

It's not an either / or thing. Both are important. The "classics" have shaped English. I would encourage reading all kinds of text, the King James Bible, Chaucer, Shakespeare, Milton, and classic novels and lots of poetry (even if you don't write poetry, poets are magic) and scads of popular or genre fiction and lots of non fiction too -- read widely, and thoughtfully.

[NeuroFizz]

The most important lessons learned in a college education are lessons about you, the person; how you handle the responsibilities (personal responsibility, discipline, personal interactions in a diverse environment, etc.) and balance them with the freedom of post-high school education. This doesn't mean that high school students can't learn the same lessons, but the freedom and distractions, plus the added years of burgeoning adulthood add to a (potentially) more enriched experience from college. Most high school educated individuals get these same lessons from work and the non-college freedom. The good thing about college is one can back up this with a plethora of instructional offerings and an opportunity to specialize in an area of interest. Does it matter what one chooses as a major? There may be helpful majors for a future writer, but I think one can major in anything a still derive the personal benefits that underlie a productive individual (in writing or in other occupations). What we learn most in our college years is about ourselves. This specific personal growth may provide no advantage, however, over those who do not attend college, but rather jump right into the responsibilities of the real working world. In either case, this personal leaning should last a lifetime.

[anodyne]

Yes, you learn that the great mercenaries of the past are the ones that are still read today.

Remember, Shakespeare was "soaps" and Dickens was a newspaper column, like "How to Play Bridge" so...

I don't know, it's important to know the stories. Shakespeare is a good way to acheive that, since he paid homage (stole) so many classic stories. Why is it important to read the classics? Because they're what we can glean the metastories of western society from. I mean, look at our television and movies. A good exercise is to go through them and go, "This came from Taming of the Shrew" and "this came from the Odyssey" or what not. The whole maxim that there's nothing new under the sun... well, yeah, it's kind of true.

But, I don't think you need structured education to get that background. In fact, I think in many cases its detrimental. The canon is great if you stumble on it, but not so great if you're tested on it. If you want exposure to the classics, just google a few lesson plans and follow them. Discuss the books with other people who've read them, use google scholar to find some articles about them.

All education is self-education.

[victoriastrauss]

When I got to college, I already knew I wanted to be a writer. I thought I ought to do something different for those four years of my life, since I'd (theoretically) be spending the rest of it immersed in literature. I originally thought I wanted to study anthropology, but after a semester reading about primate dentition, I switched to Comparative Religion, with a side emphasis on philosophy and history.

I made the mistake of taking a creative writing course one year--but that's another story.

I think the important thing is to furnish your mind, however you choose to do it.

- Victoria

[janetbellinger]

The only higher education I feel matters to a writer is the M L defree (Master of Living.)

[NeuroFizz]

But, I don't think you need structured education to get that background. In fact, I think in many cases its detrimental.
With this, I strongly disagree. Even if one learns the kinds of things they never want to do in life, that is extremely important information. It moves a person forward. Only in some isolated and limited circumstances would I consider a higher education detrimental to development of a person. Please explain how going to college can be detrimental to lifelong learning and development of a productive individual.

[anodyne]

I made the mistake of taking a creative writing course one year--but that's another story.

- Victoria

God, they're horrible, aren't they?

[janetbellinger]

I made the mistake of taking English Lit at university. Luckily though I had the sense to drop the course after the first couple of classes. Some how all that analysing all the elements in a literary work seemed to kill the whole work we were studying.n

[anodyne]

With this, I strongly disagree. Even if one learns the kinds of things they never want to do in life, that is extremely important information. It moves a person forward. Only in some isolated and limited circumstances would I consider a higher education detrimental to development of a person. Please explain how going to college can be detrimental to lifelong learning and development of a productive individual.

Student loans...
The growing prohibitive cost...
A mistaken "epiphany" that you don't want to learn and hate "literature"...
Cirrhosis...

You're right, what was I thinking?

[janetbellinger]

Neurofizz, going to college may not be detrimental to a writer, but it many not help, either.

[PeeDee]

Neurofizz, going to college may not be detrimental to a writer, but it many not help, either.

That's what *I* said!

*grumbles*

[anodyne]

That's what *I* said!

*grumbles*

Yes... Yes... You're very smart, now shut up. </grandpa>

[NeuroFizz]

Student loans...
The growing prohibitive cost...
A mistaken "epiphany" that you don't want to learn and hate "literature"...
Cirrhosis...
Note that I asked the following:

"Please explain how going to college can be detrimental to lifelong learning and development of a productive individual."

You have highlighted a non-education issue (cost), a situation that I feel does, in fact, contribute to personal growth (learning what you don't want to do), and a situation that is certainly not specific to college education (cirrhosis), and is overstated in terms of the numbers of serious students who drink to the point of ruining their educational experience.

Janet, I've already made the argument that a college education may not give an individual an advantage, particularly in terms of writing success. I've already acknowledged what you said--go back to my original post.

[engmajor2005]

I can't spend an opinion on the MFA other than I'd like to get one (two-year long writing workshop? COOL!). However, at my alma mater we didn't have specializations; we just had a B.A. in English or English Ed. The Ed. degree focused on pedagogy but a healthy mix of lit. classes. The English degree just had a whole bunch of lit. classes. I took a creative writing class and a professional writing class as electives.

I found studying English to be a stepping stone to finding interests in other topics, since literature is so diverse.

[ATP]

I made the mistake of taking English Lit at university. Luckily though I had the sense to drop the course after the first couple of classes. Some how all that analysing all the elements in a literary work seemed to kill the whole work we were studying.n

In the present day, I think that they call this analysis 'deconstruction'. (Putting it back together, 'reconstruction'?)

In the end, I thought that one of the great hallmarks of our famed Western education system is in the provision of a) education and b) the ability to think/analyse/reason. This applies to literature (as relates to the OP) as well as science etc.

The classics vs. contemporary literature is a furphy (a classic!). Concepts, tools, mannerisms, techniques, stylistics -all have come from some place or another/point in time, and have been influenced by what went before, and what followed.As someone earlier has pointed out. The canon of western literature is vast. It forms the basis of, and informs, contemporary literature. It is context and continuum. All literature waxes and wanes in importance or significance in these over time. If an English Literature course provides you this, then it has served its purpose as an important guide to the range of tools for and utility in the crafting of the written word. Like the body of science, this body of knowledge and learning enables you to 'stand on the shoulders of giants'. Also, it forms either the basis of a continued and deeper appreciation as in the purely intellectual development, or via the path of the 'practitioner' or (fiction) writer.

[Gillhoughly]

Take a few semesters of Drama 101.

(Even if you can't/don't act, you will learn how to build a scene in your writing. You'll also learn to build scenery, fix furniture, and paint, which is a big help around the house. You will meet lots of hysterically interesting people.)

Read LOTS of books written by people smarter than yourself.

Write every day.

HAVE FUN.

Worked danged well for me. Twenty-two novels sold and counting....

[zorasaura]

I went to a engineering college and major in the hard sciences. One good thing is that the jobs I get can easily pay the bills and leave me enough time to write.

Major in whatever you like but remember that some majors make getting a job a lot easier than others.

[anodyne]

Note that I asked the following:

"Please explain how going to college can be detrimental to lifelong learning and development of a productive individual."

You have highlighted a non-education issue (cost), a situation that I feel does, in fact, contribute to personal growth (learning what you don't want to do), and a situation that is certainly not specific to college education (cirrhosis), and is overstated in terms of the numbers of serious students who drink to the point of ruining their educational experience.

Janet, I've already made the argument that a college education may not give an individual an advantage, particularly in terms of writing success. I've already acknowledged what you said--go back to my original post.

If you get a degree that isn't marketable unless you go through to another degree, B.A. in English Lit for example, then believe me, cost is a detriment. If you could use the same money to get a degree in computer science, or chemistry, or education, why wouldn't you do that instead?

I'm not saying don't go to college at all, I'm just arguing against getting a very specific degree on the basis of it helping your writing.

[sfecphory]

My quick thoughts on the 'what to study' question:

Education gives back based upon what work you put into it. Don't expect to show up to class and be handed talent/expertise/qualifications.

Study something you love, or think you love (you'll find out if it wasn't love and then you can change). Everything you study will inform your writing, whether you want it to or not.

Self-study is a great way to fill in the blanks. As you study any given subject you'll begin to see connections in things you didn't see before and that's where the real exciting learning begins... after class, in the cafe, shouting what you think over the background noise over a cup of (ahem) coffee.

My quick thoughts on MFAs:

I have one.

I don't regret getting it, at all.

I studied with some marvelous writers (not all MFA professors teach because they can't get themselves into print; some are, in fact, frigging brilliant writers).

I lacked self-motivation at the time and as a result didn't write as much as I wish I had.

I had fun. (see previous sentence)

I learned that most every class setting will either consciously or subconciously drive your writing toward a centrist, mainstream, audience friendly place (this is not a good thing).

I learned that I don't like to write centrist, mainstream, audience friendly fiction. I prefer slightly odd, cross-genre, literary stuff (George Saunders, Philip K. Dick, Pynchon, Vonnegut, Steve Erickson).

I learned that most teachers have great patience, even though they loathe students who write slightly odd, cross-genre, literary stuff (George Saunders, Philip K. Dick, Pynchon, Vonnegut, Steve Erickson).

I learned that some teachers have no patience.

I learned that in the end, writing is up to you.

I learned that in the end, write what you like to read.

I learned that MFAs teach you CRAFT, not content, and that sometimes you need to put away your favorite content in order to get craft (I like to build custom cabinets, but before I can build a custom cabinet I need to learn how to build one, simple, clean, well-made cabinet). For a time this means that you may not write like yourself. I realized near the end of the program that I wasn't writing as me. That's changed now, and I definitely write what I would want to read.

----

Like I said, it's all about what you put in. You'll get more out if you put more work in. A co-student in my MFA program got published in Atlantic Monthly while in school and ended up with a Stegner Fellowship. The vast majority of the other students gave up writing all together.

My apologies on this rather long and rambling post.

[zorasaura]

Well, it's much easier to teach yourself about the humanities and the craft required for good creative writing than it is to teach yourself chemical engineering and the like. Programming is something you can learn on your own, but it's just not for everyone. Major in whatever you like but make sure you take other steps to get where you want in your career. Intern, network, minor in something that will make you marketable etc.

[pepperlandgirl]

I got my degree in English and now I'm in grad school in a British and American Lit program. I just finished my first semester, where I trudged through an ancient novels course, a Brit Renaissance course, and an intro to theory course.

And in my humble opinion, even though I barely had time to write this semester, and I'll probably never be able to read for pleasure again, it's the best decision I ever made for my writing. I'll never write a novel like "Aithiopika" "Don Quixote" or "Tom Jones" and I'll never write "The Unfortunate Traveler" or "The Fairie Queene" or the zillion sonnets we had to read, and I'll never understand Derrida or the six other structuralists we had to read, but you know what? I don't want to. What I want to do is understand why something works. I want to understand what a novel can do. I want to be familiar with the works that shaped a genre and literature as we know it today.

Ultimately, studying literature is studying arguments, and learning to recognize nuances, paying attention to details. That's not specific to reading or to writing--though the skills have certainly helped my writing.

[John61480]

Is it still true you can't get much with an English degree in the real world? Except for maybe technical writing or teaching, both of which I hear is either freelance (no stability) or a lot of extra work for not enough pay. Or if you're really very lucky, getting a job as a columnist, editor or whatever at a paper or publishing company.

Right now, I'm setting my sites on a health related career depending on how well I do in the classes. Mainly for stability and money (part-time and more writing time is the way I look at it). Realistically, is this the wrong way to approach this, or is there something I'm missing about an English degree?

[Lindo]

I read a short story once where a wise old prof told a young guy to take classics, literature, anthropology, and sociology.
The kid breathlessly asks "If I study all that, can I be a writer?"
The avuncular prof answers"My boy, study that and it´s the only thing you CAN be!"

Seriously, there is no real indication that any sort of higher education is required for, or even particularly helpful to, becoming a successful writer.

[zorasaura]

John, that's what I did. The thing about health related careers is that there are tons of them and if you have skills relating to any of them, it is almost certain that you will make more than the average american. They also have decent hours unless you are a doctor or something.

If you really want to go after a career as an editor, go to it because you can always take a few courses and get into a health related career if the editor thing does not work out. You have to be very dedicated to make it as a columnist or editor. You dont have to be the ultimate go getter to make it as a radiologic technician etc.

[veinglory]

I would suggest that you pick a univerity with a successful Masters program from which professional writers emerge, where the instructor also teachs undergrad--and take the course he or she teaches and whatever else floats you boat.

If your college does not have such a creature take whatever interests you or does seem to produce successful professionals.

[anodyne]

I read a short story once where a wise old prof told a young guy to take classics, literature, anthropology, and sociology.
The kid breathlessly asks "If I study all that, can I be a writer?"
The avuncular prof answers"My boy, study that and it´s the only thing you CAN be!"

Seriously, there is no real indication that any sort of higher education is required for, or even particularly helpful to, becoming a successful writer.

I think the list of successful writers who have higher ed in literature is swaying the statistics. We don't know if they'd have been as able to write before going to college, because they didn't.

[zorasaura]

You all have the wrong basic idea, which is "motivation"--so just do what I did: get a BS in engineering and a masters in Public Administration. Your mind-frying career path will make you so enthused about your escape pod, the USS Published Author, that you easily write 500 words a day and follow every agent/publisher lead. Yee-ha!

Lol, I hear ya!

But I dunno. I NEED my creative outlets whether I get published or I dont. Jobs generally get boring.

[NeuroFizz]

I think the list of successful writers who have higher ed in literature is swaying the statistics. We don't know if they'd have been as able to write before going to college, because they didn't.
Sorry. I don't mean to be contrary, but ignoring the data points that don't support your argument by saying they sway the statistics is absurd. We also don't know what the non-college educated, but successful writers would have done if they had gone to college. Perhaps they all would have been non-writing Doctors. I appreciate your take on this, and I agree a college education is not a prerequisite for becoming a successful writer, but keep your arguments firmly based in logic.

[Bubastes]

I went to a engineering college and major in the hard sciences. One good thing is that the jobs I get can easily pay the bills and leave me enough time to write.

Major in whatever you like but remember that some majors make getting a job a lot easier than others.

I'm with you. It's easier to write what you want on a full stomach. :)

[veinglory]

There does seem to be a tendency for best selling authors to have degrees, and in fact to often have had previous careers suh as in law, policing or education. I am not all that focussed on a writing career, but I do think that rich experience of some sort helps. You can get that in a degree and career--of course you can also get it travelling the world or raising children.

Like any job it is important to realise that college is as much about name dropping and networking as learning skills. It pays to learn from those who *do* as well as teach.

[engmajor2005]

It depends on location as well. Around here, two types of undergrads get paid well: education and business majors. I majored in English because I went to school to learn...that and I and had no head for anything else. If I want a meal ticket, I'll marry rich (though I applaud those who are so dedicated to writing they continue to do so even if taking a "pay the bills" job).

[zorasaura]

If I want a meal ticket, I'll marry rich

A wise fella once told me that marrying for money is the hardest money you'll ever earn.

I really believe that now. Eliminating 95% of men because they aren't wealthy is a real pain when you are looking for a partner.

[anodyne]

Sorry. I don't mean to be contrary, but ignoring the data points that don't support your argument by saying they sway the statistics is absurd. We also don't know what the non-college educated, but successful writers would have done if they had gone to college. Perhaps they all would have been non-writing Doctors. I appreciate your take on this, and I agree a college education is not a prerequisite for becoming a successful writer, but keep your arguments firmly based in logic.

bua? Okay, let's take a step back and look at this. I said an english literature degree isn't necessary, but that it's important to understand the classic literature and metathemes in order to write well in western society.

Then I said, look at all of the people who have done it.

Then someone else said, well that doesn't guarantee they'll be good writers.

Someone else said, with a degree in English Lit that's all you can be.

As part of the general dialogue, I quipped, true, cause you know, all those successful writers are swaying the statistics.

[CrankItTo11]

It looks like many of us are in agreement... sorry if this post is just redundant.

We shouldn't be too persuaded by the fact that many authors have degrees in English or literature. The fact is, people who write tend to have an interest in English or literature and they choose that as a field to study. Yes, many successful writers have lit degrees ... but that doesn't mean a lit degree creates a successful writer.

Hmm... I'm not sure that made any sense. Perhaps I should have majored in English after all. :)

[MHanlon]

I found ENG LIT to be an excellent major for writers. Even though you study some classic literature (most of my studies were contemporary) you analyze a story for the parts that make it resonate. You analyze what makes a piece timeless and universal. Not to mention your focus is on writing. You may be doing more essay work, but heck your writing and thinking. You have all of your GE classes and electives to focus on worldly knowledge. I personally found History and Psychology classes useful in writing, but that depends on what your writing passion is.

[NeuroFizz]

bua? Okay, let's take a step back and look at this. I said an english literature degree isn't necessary, but that it's important to understand the classic literature and metathemes in order to write well in western society.

Then I said, look at all of the people who have done it.

Then someone else said, well that doesn't guarantee they'll be good writers.

Someone else said, with a degree in English Lit that's all you can be.

As part of the general dialogue, I quipped, true, cause you know, all those successful writers are swaying the statistics.
Sorry. Your quip wasn't very quippy.

[anodyne]

I wasn't aware I was performing.

Can't tell you who you should speak to about refunding your ticket price and all. Sorry.

[NeuroFizz]

No refund needed. Finally got the melodrama.

[IrishScribbler]

I have a B.S. in English with a concentration in creative writing, and a minor in liberal studies (basically humanities) from a small, private, liberal arts college. I think I made a good choice. I was able to balance the classics and the contemporary, the lit. and creative writing, as well as tempering that with the humanities courses for my minor. For those wondering, the only thing that kept me from a B.A. was a foreign language, for which I didn't have time, unfortunately.

When (not if, when) I pursue my master's, I plan to get an MFA in creative writing so I can teach writing at the college level.

[John61480]

Aren't teaching positions for creative writing especially hard to get into? I realized that teaching in general isn't an easy thing to get into even with the degrees and credentials. Spots aren't always available and the teachers currently teaching aren't looking forward to losing their positions. 'Cuz if so, IrishScribbler, you may end up moving around to a different state to get a job (if you live in the USA).

[anodyne]

No refund needed. Finally got the melodrama.

What are we now? Victorian?

... I don't do poisonings.

[NeuroFizz]

Victorian is no fun. Too starched and gabley. How 'bout a good old fashioned witch hunt?

[greatfish]

If you get a degree that isn't marketable unless you go through to another degree, B.A. in English Lit for example, then believe me, cost is a detriment. If you could use the same money to get a degree in computer science, or chemistry, or education, why wouldn't you do that instead?

I'm not saying don't go to college at all, I'm just arguing against getting a very specific degree on the basis of it helping your writing.

I'm afraid I have to guard against this point very strictly. Living to work, in my opinion, is a very sick idea. Working is a necessity to survive, but it should only be doing that, helping you survive so that you can focus on the things in life that are truly worth while. It's better for people to learn this before they waste their college experience on a career instead of something they love.*

*Note: if your love is your career then disregard.

[anodyne]

I went to school for what I loved.

Then faced the sudden realization that you can't eat books. And castles in the sky are rather difficult to live in. Don't live to work, live to write. Just work to pay the bills.

[Oliveman]

(Although I have yet to write a story with a graphic designer in it. How boring. He lined up the cut box, praying that he wasn't anti-aliasing the picture prematurely......)

What? Are you kidding me? If pixels are bland now, start a revolution! Make them exciting and thought-provoking! Put the graphic designer to the test in a grand adventure, or perhaps let him build a virtual world he traps his soul in... This has potential PeeDee

[Loribelle_Hunt]

I majored in Eng Lit because I love books. It taught me how to read critically, how to research, and how to write a comparative paper. What taught me how to write fiction? Practice practice practice. And a ton of reading. And a stint in the Army that taught me a helluva lot more about people than my Eng Lit classes ever did.

The Eng Lit degree...I wouldn't un-do it you understand? I enjoyed getting it. But it does me no good. My Army experience does me good. I write genre (military natch) so that helps, and it gets me civilian job offers. The Eng degree? Not so much. I can't teach with it (not an ED degree) and I can't get on with the local paper with it (not a journalism degree).

I don't want to discourage anyway from pursuing a degree in Eng Lit, but you have to understand if you do, you will be chasing a job market. For me, where I live, there is no market for Eng Lit majors. I don't really care since I didn't pursue it for a job. I am writing full time now, but I credit it to life experience not formal education. I was an MP in the Army and I had to learn how to really listen to people. I think that's the best education I've ever had, and it's a huge influence in how I write.

So that's my 2 cents. Ymmv.

[IrishScribbler]

Aren't teaching positions for creative writing especially hard to get into? I realized that teaching in general isn't an easy thing to get into even with the degrees and credentials. Spots aren't always available and the teachers currently teaching aren't looking forward to losing their positions. 'Cuz if so, IrishScribbler, you may end up moving around to a different state to get a job (if you live in the USA).

A few things:

1) I won't be in Illinois much longer.
2) Teaching creative writing is a long-term goal. I'd also be excited about teaching research and composition classes at the college or high school level. Hell, even teaching literature would be great!
3) I can have a dream, can't I?

[Mr. Funktastic]

I usually stay out of these arguments, but I thought I'd jump in here.

I'm currently in my third year of working toward my B.A. in English Lit. In a couple years I'm going to start working on my M.A., then my Ph.D. Then I'll go through the difficult process of trying to land a professorship.

I'm completely aware that the job outlook for English majors isn't too bright, but it's what I want to do, what I love, so nothing else really matters. I was actually preparing to go to law school for a while because I knew that I would have a better chance of getting a good job, but in the end I didn't go through with it because it wasn't what I wanted to do at all.

Studying literature is my passion, and it helps my writing immensily. I'd say English lit is an excellent background for any aspiring writer, but don't do it if it's not what you love. Study what really interests you. My brother writes on the side, and he's studying Genetics with a minor in Philosophy. It's all just a matter of what interests you.

Really, you learn a few valuable skills in an English program that are applicable to all sorts of fields: research skills, communication skills, writing skills, etc.

That was pretty off-topic, but it was what I felt as being a necessary rambling. Ha.

[Inkdaub]

This is an interesting thread. Taking the longview I believe that a degree is helpful to an aspiring writer only in that any and all education is helpful to an aspiring writer. The course of study...when judging it's probability of helping said aspiring writer achieve successs...is dependant on each individual.

I went to college two years out of highschool and majored in English right out of the gate. That's what I liked and that's what I was good at so it was a gimme. The problem was that I minored in alcohol and methamphetamines. The result being that I was kicked out of school at the beginning of my sophmore year.

Ten years go by and my lifestyle changes dramatically.

I decide to return to school. This time my goals are very different and what I am interested in is the education itself as opposed to what the education may lead to later on. I decide to make History my major course of study and my goal is now to achieve a degree by the age of forty.

I have always been and always will be a writer.

[Lindo]

One easy way to look at that one is to make a list of the greatest writers ever and ask how many took writing courses. You end up going, Shakespeare..no, Mailer...no, Faulkner...no...ad infinitum. It's only recently that writing degrees are common among pro writers...and not really all that common if you take poetry and scholarly essays out of the mix.

If you take sales as the measure of success you end up coming to the conclusion that the best thing to do is study law or medicine, not writing. Another profitable education for writing future would be going into combat.

This is mostly because writing is not a technical subject that can be taught. The fact that writers are starting to have writing degrees is mostly a matter of it being something people do until they get to be writers.

[flannelberry]

I have to disagree. I think it's far, far more important to familiarise yourself with contemporary literature.
If you're training to be a doctor, you don't learn about leech application, if you're training to be a soldier, you don't learn musketry drills.

Ahem... you know that leeches and maggots are still used right. Ok - I take your point but I *had* to throw that in.

Seriously - study what you love for two reasons. One - if you take something because you think it's going to help you get published or whatever not because you enjoy the subject matter you will likely find it a grind and have a greater likelihood of dropping out.

Two - A writing career is not exactly a sure thing. If you take something and love it then continuing on with it regardless of writing isn't going to be a big issue. If you hate it you may also hate working in that field - not exactly fun.

Anything you take in post sec is going to help you learn to think, to research, to look at things from different angles, to spell etc. You should also learn how to think creatively and question - very important for writers.

I can honestly say I learned more from anth and sociology than I ever did from my lit or writing classes (except my composition class - one of the best I have ever taken).

FWIW I can also say that outside of my profs who taught in either Eng or Writing, most of the published fiction writers I know have nonEnglish/Writing degrees - classics, anth and pysch being the most common. Also sociology and biology. And Medieval Studies (but she writes SF- which regularly cracks me up).

Take it from a career student - there is no one degree you should take except the one that brings you some sort of enjoyment and a broad sense of things.

My sister once (brilliantly) said- I went to university for an education. If I was going just to get a job out of it, I'd have gone to trade school. If you think of it that way you can't go wrong AND it will help your writing.

[SK Kane]

I was an undergraduate fiction writing major, but it wasn't my only major. It was helpful to the extent that it gave me a lot of workshopping experience. Being a creative writing major will teach you more about revision than about writing, because it will let you act as editor for dozens of undergrad writers.

I found my program unhelpful in that it didn't teach much about the business of getting published (one student even asked the chair if they might consider offering a seminar on query writing, etc. and he said "that's not what we do here"). The downside in my program was a lot of snobbery against commercial fiction and in favor of literary fiction. It helped my writing style in a lot of ways, and kept me focused on character, but it also shut me out because it alienated a lot of instructors from me. The upside of snobby programs is that, if you get into the MFA with high ratings, then you get a TA-ship or fellowship (i.e. tuition plus stipend). One of my good friends from college got into both our school and U. of Mich. for MFA with funding. But she's a literary sort of writer.

[Richard White]

I received my Bachelors in History with a minor in Criminal Justice Administration (Pre-Law). Also studied Journalism for a while before getting in a knock-down/drag-out argument with the (unknown to me) new dean of the department (hence the shift to History).

That was in 1982. Two careers later (Soldier and Tech Writer), I'm going back to the local community college and studying for an AA in English. I think the experience as a non-traditional student has been beneficial to me, studying short stories and other types of literature I might not read normally. I liken it to exercising muscle groups that I've let atrophy.

I haven't decided whether or not to pursue my MFA or not. If I go, it would either be to John Hopkins or U of Maryland (closest schools). Either way, they have a requirement to submit a 50 page sample (aka the first three chapters of a novel) and throughout your program, you build your novel and for graduation, you don't defend your thesis, you have to defend your finished novel.

I find that a rather (pardon the pun) novel approach to graduation. *grin*

[Anthony Ravenscroft]

In my opinion & experience & observation:

-- get a degree in something practical. I've got experience as an editor at a small publishing house, & have off&on been editing for money for 20 years. Guess what: I can't get hired at a bigger commercial house because I don't have at least a two-year degree in Journalism or Communications. If you really want to study something related to writing, those majors would be good, or Technical Writing/Editing, & similar. When you can slack off a little from time to time, & not worry about the choice between writing & starving (or watching your family starve), you can write at something a little leisurely.

-- avoid writing-related jobs. The closer your workday is to your avocation, the less you're going to write. Trust me on this. I wrote more when I was working in a warehouse than when I was doing office work, & more in that office than when I was copyediting a newspaper. If you take a full-time editing job, chances are you'll somehow never find time to work on that novel.

[Lindo]

Absolutely amen, Ravenscroft!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is the best message to young writers.
Nothing one can learn in college is going to help you be a writer, but it can help you survive. Maybe.

As far as work goes...if the goal is to be a journalist, fine. But boiling the pot doing articles while hope to score the great novel is NOT a good idea at all. Be like Wallace Stevens...sell insurance while writing poems.

[Billboy]

College is where you learn how to learn.
You learn how to handle situations, to mature up, to handle disappointments. At the same time, you learn certain skills on how to think.
Taken together, you then graduate and apply these 'learning how to learn' skills in whatever you choose to do.
The process is lifelong and unfortunately, cannot be shortened into a few months or years. It is like eating. You cannot eat for the rest of your life at one sitting!

[Lindo]

If you haven't learned how to learn by the time to get to college, you're in trouble. You can learn a LOT more about handling situations, dissapointments and how to think in the Army, or an apprenticeship program, or just bumming around Asia with a backpack.
And none of this teaches you anything about writing.

[Toothpaste]

Respectfully Lindo I disagree. There is a certain type of analytical thinking you can learn from a university degree, that is at a different level than a high school education. I have no problem with people travelling the world to learn. Nor taking apprenticeship programmes to develop a skill. Or joining the army to learn to work in a team environment and make hard decisions. They each have their merit. Please don't discredit university just because it doesn't work for you. University taught me a heck of a lot about questioning things. About expressing myself with carefully chosen words. And darn it it also taught me stuff that I was studying, like history, or literature. I got the chance to learn about completely 'impractical' things which I would never have studied as I didn't think I cared about such things but I had to take the course in order to fulfill my degree requirements, like the history of Chinese theatre.

I totally agree with you that it is important to get out of the classroom as well and see the world. I don't trust someone who has no interest to see what else is out there. Why is it one or the other however? Travelling coupled with the knowledge I had gleaned from university was amazing. I am not saying everyone MUST go to university. Some people just aren't suited for it, and why should they be? I have many friends who didn't go to university. I have many friends who traveled the world. I have many friends who are in the army. But saying you learn more and better in your other suggested environments is just prejudice against a system you personally don't like. I learned a lot of life lessons in university. And I think I am a pretty down to earth kind of person.

Can't we just agree that there are different strokes for different folks, and not say that one way is better than another?

[Warp]

I agree with Toothpaste (minty fresh, mmm) that college isn't for everyone. But if it is for you, major in what you love (like many others have stated).

I started with a major in photography, changed to English, then changed again to Linguistics. I graduated with a B.A. in Linguistics and minors in English, Anthropology and Japanese (I'm slightly insane). But I loved every minute of my college life, even the ones I thought I hated. I learned something from every single class, and I think it's all reflected in my writing. I understand language more than I used to and, since I did a lot of research in anthropological linguistics and sociolinguistics, it's made my dialogue much better. World building is much easier with knowledge of anthropology and political science.

Plus, I have opportunities that those without a college degree wouldn't have. I'm moving to Japan in a few months to teach English for a few years, then I'm going to grad school.

Long story short (too late), if you're into it (and keep up with your studies, no point drinking away your college years and wasting all that money) you'll get something out of it, no matter what your major.

[badducky]

I got a BA in Creative Writing from the University of Houston, and I have mixed opinions about it.

I think it's really creepy and weird how the people teaching novels and poetry and etc. in literature classes have no idea how to write them. If you want to learn how to play guitar, would you ask a rock critic from the rolling stone or Eddie Van Halen? I'd go after the metaphorical Eddie. And I did, with my writing degree.

But, I also think workshops are only valuable up to a certain point, beyond which they become damaging -- and you have to be good enough and smart enough to see that precise moment.

In the end, I think the best person to ask is yourself. You are the only one who knows where you are in your career, and what you'd be happy doing.

And as a mostly starving artist, let me assure you there are days when I wish I was inspired by the intricacies of dentistry.

Ramen noodle soup is good, but it's not good every day.

[Bubastes]

And as a mostly starving artist, let me assure you there are days when I wish I was inspired by the intricacies of dentistry.

Well, you don't need to be inspired by a job to be able to do it adequately. Heck, you don't even need to like the darn job if it pays enough. Yeah, I'm easily bought. :D

[Lindo]

The question is not whether college teaches a different way of thinking (much less--and highly arguable--if that way of thinking is better) but whether it can teach you how to write. That one's easy. Nobody ever learned how to write in a class, ever.