How to Create Great 3 Dimensional Characters

[jeffrivera]

Hey guys, here's an article I wrote that I thought you might like. Let me know what you think or if you have any questions

__________________________________________________ ___
How to Create Great 3 Dimensional Characters:
by Warner Books' Author - Jeff Rivera

A lot of people after reading my debut novel, "Forever My Lady" ask me how I created such 3 dimensional characters. They looked at my book cover and expected a strictly plot-driven story with not much character development, until they read it. Even one former William Morris agent said it's the best character-driven story he's ever read. Well, I don't know about that but I do know I had a lot of fun writing it.

How did I create 3D characters? Well, after years of studying screenwriting I used those skills and those I developed on my own or learned from the hundreds of screenwriting books I read to create a system that guarantees a three dimensional story.

First, you have to understand that you can have both a story that has a great plot, a page turner and have 3D characters that seem to walk off the page.

Before I create any characters, there are a few rules I've created for myself.

A) The characters, although natural, must feel bigger than life. Who wants to read about a boring character? Aren't you more interested in those type of people you meet who seem bigger than life? Even the small characters should feel like they're stealing the scene.

B) The characters must make a grand entrance when we first meet them.

C) Always remember, the characters had a full life before they met the main character, they had a full life during and they'll have a full life after the main character leaves their life. Their life doesn't start when they meet the main character and it won't stop afterward. They must have a lot of baggage. Nobody likes people with baggage in real life but on the page it's not only interesting, it's necessary.

You need to realize that in real life there are three elements to a person and there are three questions you need to ask yourself to help create the illusion that the character has 3 Dimensions.

1) What would you assume about this character just by looking at him? If she passed by you on the street what conclusions would you draw based on how they look? This is the first layer.

2) What's the last thing you'd expect someone looking like that to do for a living or be like? Give them that trait. That's their real personality and the second layer. And I mean it needs to be the exact opposite of what you would assume by looking at them. Take an eighty year old lady walking down the street. The last thing I'd expect from her is that she is a black belt in karate and will kick anybody's butt at the drop of a hat. Well, give her that trait.

3) Why do they have this trait? And/or who is this person really when you push them to the limit? This is the third and final layer.

Design a character like you're designing a picture, don't expect everything to be done all at once, do it one layer at a time. You don't need a 400 page biography, most of my characters in "Forever My Lady" I designed on a half page or page but what I did do is wrote scenes for them, stuff in their own life that maybe had nothing to do with the main story just so I could see how they reacted in their own life when they thought no body else was looking. Some of those scenes I used in the novel, others were just for me.

A few other things to keep in mind are:

i) no character whether it's the main character or the antagonist is all good or all bad.

ii) in the antagonist's (or bad guy's) point of view he's not doing anything wrong or bad, he's doing what's right and if you see things from his point of view you realize that.

iii) be aware of how the character is coming across. Sometimes you're so attached to the character you don't see this but perception is reality and you may ask someone else to give you their opinion about how the character is coming across. This is the time to keep your mouth shut and listen and consider what they have to say. It's not time to defend or explain your characters.

iv) every character, every single one has a secret that they don't want anyone to know about. We all do, yes, even you.

v) everyone has goals for their lives and for their families, even the bad guys. Oprah says on her show, and I think it's true, every father has a dream for his family; even the alcoholic and abusive ones.

vi) everyone has fears, what's their greatest fear? (and make sure you make it happen in the novel)

vii) if you're looking for a starting point, cast your characters with a certain movie star in mind or better yet someone you know or a combination of people you know. Then build from there.

By using these tricks of the trade as guidelines you can create amazing 3 Dimensional Characters.
_________________________________
JEFF RIVERA went from self-published author to published author with the underground bestselling novel, FOREVER MY LADY (http://www.ForeverMyLady.com (http://www.forevermylady.com/))

[Kentuk]

Good timing, I'm currently developing a character and found your advice helpful.

[Oliveman]

To help, I created a directory of moral questions for a character, basically an expansion of those 3 layer questions. If you want, I can post it, but it seems that this short piece sums up character making pretty nicely.

One thing to add, though:

You never MAKE a character. No, think of it as telling us about a real living being who existed. Some events that happened to the character are contained within your novel, but people only see a small snapshot of the whole, larger than life, life. And make sure they KNOW that, always giving them the sense of a life beyond what is explicitly told. These things are revealed in responses, dialouge, and the opinions of other people about this person. A huge set up is already there, you just need to put the drop of water on the spider web.

[jeffrivera]

that's an interesting take on "MAKING" a character. I like that Oliveman.

[jeffrivera]

Good timing, I'm currently developing a character and found your advice helpful.

I'm glad you found it helpful buddy.

[Willowmound]

How to Create Great 3 Dimensional Characters:
by Warner Books' Author - Jeff Rivera

A lot of people after reading my debut novel, "Forever My Lady" ask me how I created such 3 dimensional characters. They looked at my book cover and expected a strictly plot-driven story with not much character development, until they read it. Even one former William Morris agent said it's the best character-driven story he's ever read.

This is just one long ad for your book, isn't it.

[rugcat]

Even one former William Morris agent said it's the best character-driven story he's ever read. I can't begin to tell you how impressed I am.

[Cath]

Interesting, thanks.

One question - when you say:
B) The characters must make a grand entrance when we first meet them.
Do you mean this is the point where we should give the most detail about the character - quirks, appearance etc - or that they should come in with some kind of dramatic event that defines them in some way? I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at with this.

[PeeDee]

I don't think I've ever gone through that in the process of creating characters, nor have I had any particular character make a grand entrance. They just show up when they have things to say, we go on our way for a little while, and eventually there's a story. I think that if I did that much planning for a character, I would be bored to tears by the time I got to the story.

Still, thanks for offering advice to those who might use it. Your book cover is astonishingly huge.

[UrsusMinor]

Everyone works in different ways.

Martin Amis says that most author's descriptions of how they go about creating characters and story strike him as a perfect description of writer's block.

I'm with Martin...but whatever works for you, works.

[Akuma]

Jeffrivera, while I do find some of your points insightful, don't be so eager to set you opinions in stone and "guarantee" amazing results.
After all, not everyone is familiar with your credits in writing or perhaps even interested.

Still, I found your article pointed out some helpful tips so thanks for sharing with us.

[Jamesaritchie]

I agree with some of this, but I tend to hate "created" characters, regardless of what anyone at William Morris says, and I'd rather chew ground glass than do much of what you suggest.

If all this works for you, then I'm glad, but it isn't going to work for everyone, and the most memorable characters I've encounted were not created anything like the way you suggest.

What works for one writer doesn't necessarily work for another, and in all honesty, I don't find anyting you say necessary in order to create 3-D characters. But if it works for you, great.

[Elektra]

These characters may be memorable, but a book full of people with kooky, improbable traits could hardly be believable.

[Scarlett_156]

Your book cover is astonishingly huge.

You took the words right outta my mouth.

[Willowmound]

Your book cover is astonishingly huge.

You took the words right outta my mouth.

Well, he's here to advertise, isn't he.

When your primary reason for posting on a board is to show off your sig, you'd better make it huge.

[Bartholomew]

Welcome to the forums, Jeff.

Kindly resize your signature image. It's sucking bandwidth away from my glorious thread derailing.

[jeffrivera]

Interesting, thanks.

One question - when you say:

Do you mean this is the point where we should give the most detail about the character - quirks, appearance etc - or that they should come in with some kind of dramatic event that defines them in some way? I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at with this.

I love that question, I'll tell you what I mean Cath -- I think the cliche that you never get a second chance to make a first impression is so true, even in writing. And I think you have to make that first entrance memorable so we get a clear idea who this character is (even if later on after we get to know them we change our mind about them.) Do you know what I mean? If not, tell me and I'll try to expand ...

[Bartholomew]

Thank you. :)

[jeffrivera]

Thank you. :)
No problem Barth! -- Jeff

[Jamesaritchie]

I love that question, I'll tell you what I mean Cath -- I think the cliche that you never get a second chance to make a first impression is so true, even in writing. And I think you have to make that first entrance memorable so we get a clear idea who this character is (even if later on after we get to know them we change our mind about them.) Do you know what I mean? If not, tell me and I'll try to expand ...

I think it's your choice of words I have problems with. Characters who always make a "grand entrance" get old very, very fast. A good first impression is fine, but I seldom seen anything good about a grand entrance, expecially if more than one character makes one. Characters hsould be real, and grand entrances are not very realistic, and are nearly always laughable.

And, no, not everyone has a secret they don't want anyone to know. Not real people, and not characters. If you want to use a secret to build the character, it can work. But not everyone has a secret, and not every character should have one, either.

And while you might have been exaggerating for effect, an eighty year old woman who can kick anybody's butt is not a realistic character, and I'd turn that book into a wallbanger instantly. There is no logical reason to give everyone a profession that's the opposite of the way they look. This, too, gets old very, very fast.

Real people do not fall into such neat categories, or have such well-defined traits. Neither should characters.

And, honestly, do you really believe there are three elements to every person, and three questions you have to ask? These don't even make much sense, if you want your characters to come across as real, individual characters.

I love your point about not having the good guy be all good, or the bad guy be all bad, and I like the notion of the bad guy not thinking he's doing anything wrong. Though, of course, many who commit monstrous crimes know darned well they're doing something wrong, and often have strong feelings of guilt and remorse.

But too much of what you say strikes me as How to Create Stereotypical Characters 101. There's not only nothing new here, most of it is old hat, has been done too many times, usually poorly, and doesn't create characters I'd call realistic.

It's partly a matter of taste, of course. I seldom come across a "created" character that I find at all realistic. There's always too much of this, too little of them, too many traits real people don't actually have, far too much writer's intervention, and character after character that I've seen before, doing things in ways I got tired of very early on.

Which is not to say your characters aren't wonderful. But if they are, I doubt it's because of your list. As I said, there's nothing new on this list, and many a a writer has tried everything on it, only to create lousy characters. If your characters are great, it's more likely because you used your natural talent to do a good job in writing them down, not because you followed this list with each and every character.

[jeffrivera]

thanks for your input, this is the technique I use to create my characters, and it works wonderfully. Every writer has their own techniques and I'm more than happy to share mine with hopes it works as well for them as it did for me. I guess it's best to see the techniques in action before they are "poo-pooed".

I'd love to know what kind of techniques you use James, everyone loves to hear everyone's approaches. Don't worry I won't "poo-poo" them. Hahaha. If they don't work for me, I'm sure they'll work for other people.

Blessings,
:) Jeff

[FergieC]

I like taking characters out of the novel to develop them - the main ones anyway. Secondary ones, I tend to steal from life. Seedy bars, public transport, friends of friends, all great places for meeting wierd and wonderful poeple with voices and stories. Main ones are mostly stolen from life too, actually, but that's not quite enough if they're main.

The main ones seem to become flat and stale if they're not developed "off-stage" as well as on. I have a questionnaire I use, but it's mostly trivial questions. There are a few big ones like what's you're biggest regret that will almost always come in somewhere. But there are others like what was the first record you bought which often just signal to me that I don't know enough about the character yet - like I find I'm thinking what age is this person? When and where did they grow up? when trying to get them to answer.

These things might not be important for the story, but if you don't know them as the writer, you get stuck and get contradictions slipping in. Whereas if you do know them, they fall naturally into the background story. I've previously written an entire novel before realising I didn't know anything about the main character's childhood. I didn't think it was important to the story, but it has to be. It forms the characters. Maybe, when you start to get better, and you get more of a feel for writing fiction, you don't need to do that anymore, because knowing all about the characters before you start becomes second nature, but for the moment, that works for me, and keeps me from rushing in too fast to write, which is a big weakness of mine!

I don't agree at all that all characters have to be the opposite of what they look like they should be. In real life that's just not true. Everyone has vastly more depth than you'd give them credit for on first impressions, and you absolutely want to avoid stereotypes, but the fact is still, that most people do look more or less like what they are. It's underneath they might be different, once you get to know them much better, the bits that they don't tell just anyone.

I also disagree a little with James on that - most people might not have big secrets as such, but more or less everyone has stuff they don't tend to tell people. My last boyfriend and I were going out for about 6 months before I found out he had a criminal record - and there was a whole big, fascinating story around that - and before he found out the thing about me that I rarely tell anyone... :hat:

[Celia Cyanide]

After all, not everyone is familiar with your credits in writing or perhaps even interested.

Every published writer on this board probably has people here who are not "interested" in his/her publication credits, and/or have not heard of them before coming here. It's not really polite or necessary to point out. People will take the advice if they are interested, and ignore it if they are not.

[Zolah]

Still, thanks for offering advice to those who might use it. Your book cover is astonishingly huge.

Not to mention the lips on the book cover. And I thought Angelina Jolie was a freak...

[jeffrivera]

I like taking characters out of the novel to develop them - the main ones anyway. Secondary ones, I tend to steal from life. Seedy bars, public transport, friends of friends, all great places for meeting wierd and wonderful poeple with voices and stories. Main ones are mostly stolen from life too, actually, but that's not quite enough if they're main.:hat:

Me too! I like using real people as a framework for my characters to. Sometimes I have to combine a bunch of real people, a little bit from this person, a little from that person and that helps.

[jeffrivera]

Not to mention the lips on the book cover. And I thought Angelina Jolie was a freak...

Hahhaa, those are some big ol' lips aren't they. Hahhaa. I think he painted it symbolicly, lips mean more than just for kissing. I think they also represent love or messages, they can represent a lot of different things. I'll have to ask the painter why he created such HUGE lips. But I love them big ol' lips. They have character. I think the Warner version of the book cut off some of her lips. Hahaha.

[jeffrivera]

Not to mention the lips on the book cover. And I thought Angelina Jolie was a freak...

By the way, is it just me or does it seem like Angelina's lips aren't as big as they were when the public was first introduced to her?

[jeffrivera]

Every published writer on this board probably has people here who are not "interested" in his/her publication credits, and/or have not heard of them before coming here. It's not really polite or necessary to point out. People will take the advice if they are interested, and ignore it if they are not.

Thanks for your support Celia! That's very nice -- :) Jeff

[inanna]

I think this is matter of taste and style.

I've seen worksheets and other methods for developing or even creating characters outside of a novel, but I can't seem to get into them. I've come to know my characters pretty initimately through writing about them and concerning myself with what drives them, but I still couldn't necessarily tell you who is a Virgo or where someone went to grade school. In one case, I had only the vaguest notion of my character's 'big secret' as I was writing. But when it was time for it to be revealed, I knew exactly what it was, because I'd gotten to understand him very well. I prefer to trust the process that way.

It feels very contrived to me to sit down and start "making up" things about my characters on a piece of paper. I'm not knocking it per se - it would be incredibly useful to know a whole bunch of stuff about them ahead of time - but it feels artificial to me. I'm more interested in what they want for themselves and from each other. As I think about these things and have my characters interact, the background and the baggage that explains their motivation often falls into place.

But this kind of reminds me of outlining; some people love it and can't live without it, and others either take it or leave it or can't fathom the idea of it at all. Methods and worksheets are good for getting people started who might otherwise feel stuck, and are probably a lot more helpful than my wishy-washy, right-brained "I just do it" example, but I would hate to see people rely on formulas too heavily. There's something really magical about getting to know characters in the same way we get to know people in real life.

[Elektra]

inannna, do you find that your characters become more fleshed out as you get to know them better, or do they stay consistent throught the writing?

[inanna]

inannna, do you find that your characters become more fleshed out as you get to know them better, or do they stay consistent throught the writing?

They fleshed out and occasionally took some rather wild turns, with some stuff I would've never put down on paper beforehand. The premise of my novel was nebulous and also pretty cliched - a 'torrid' romance between a vampire and a (sort of) human woman. She had a lovable sidekick and a few other rather flat characters with whom to interact. I felt some pressure to figure everyone out ahead of time, but every time I tried to do it, it felt forced. So I just started with the few tidbits I had.

Writers often say their characters have their own agendas, and I found that to be true; progressing from scene to scene, I kept running into all this crazy sexual tension where there was not supposed to be any (seriously, it was a little taboo - which is why I say I would've never written this out ahead of time). It was really hard to go with, especially because at the time I was in a novel writing class where I had to show these chapters to my group and my instructor. I felt like a huge perv, but I followed my gut.

Anyway, long story short (very long story, since it's a trilogy :tongue) - the sidekick turned out to be a pivotal character (and the favorite of my beta readers), the vampire had his own agenda wherein romance was simply a means to an end, and the taboo relationship was key to both the plot and the theme. None of this was what I'd originally envisioned, but since I didn't have it all worked out ahead of time, I felt free to just follow it. That's not to say these things can't be written down first and then just changed as one goes along. This is just what worked for me.

[Zolah]

By the way, is it just me or does it seem like Angelina's lips aren't as big as they were when the public was first introduced to her?

That's because Angelina (like everyone Brad Pitt has ever been in a long-term relationship with) has been steadily losing weight for months, and now that her body has reached the point of emaciation and her metabolism has finished devouring every ounce of fat in her body it's going for muscle tissue and anything else it can. That's why her lips are getting smaller and more shrivelled - and why I bet the same is happening to her boobs and butt. Sucks to be her.

[Christine N.]

I particularly like how Jeff's not following Jenna's kind advice, given on another of his started threads.

Jeff, we have a writing thread here. It's called "Learn Writing with Uncle Jim". I suggest you go read it, contribute here in a non-patronizing way, realize that we are your peers, not your students, then come back and start again.

'Cause you're not winning any friends here at the moment. We all enjoy advice about our work, but hate being preached to. If you'll notice, many of the threads here are questions about writing, then everyone chimes in with their opinions. There are no "here's how I did it, you can to!" threads.

Except yours, of course.

Don't we have a Promotions and Announcements forum here somewhere he can flog his book?

[farfromfearless]

I tried once with mashed potatoes, but I think there was too much cream in the mix. This Christmas I'll do better.

[Christine N.]

LOL.

And just to clarify, I don't wish to disparage Jeff's talent. I don't know anything about it. I'm sure he has a lot to contribute and good advice behind the self-promoting, patronizing slew of threads he's started. I just personally feel he's being heavy handed in they way in which he is currently contributing.

Just so we're clear. Now I have to get back to work that pays the bills. Yeah, I actually make a living doing something related to writing and publishing.

[gp101]

Congrats on your success, Jeff. Thanks for the advice on 3-D characters. I read the first three chap's of your novel at Amazon and I'd like to find out more about your prose. How did you make the passive voice work? Did your editor mind it, or did s/he suggest it? What about the early jumps in story time? Did they have any concerns that it might seem jumpy? I only ask because these are things I've read that should be avoided if possible, so I'd like to know how you made them work.

Thanks.


after years of studying screenwriting I used those skills and those I developed on my own or learned from the hundreds of screenwriting books I read to create a system that guarantees a three dimensional story.



Didn't know there existed hundreds of books on screenwriting. Didn't it seem repetitive by book 50? You have more patience than I.

[Elodie-Caroline]

I think that if you know how people's minds work; and more importantly, you know how your own mind works; then it's really easy to create characters that are three dimensional. I psychoanalyse myself all of the time; I know why I do, say, or think things, and have done it for years. There are parts of me that I would never show to anyone, including my husband and/or my family, so I use the hidden parts of myself for people in my WIPs, plus I use traits that I see in people I know -- or think I do.

I've got two WIPs at the moment, both are about strong women, but they are both strong in very different ways. One is meek and mild and takes whatever life throws at her, she lets people put on her, including the man she loves, but when the crunch comes to the crunch, she's in control because she has strength of mind. In my other, the lady is feisty and shows the world that she doesn't give a toss about anything, but underneath that tough exterior, she is very vulnerable... Both of these women are me -- parts I show people and parts that I don't and never would.
I think that you have to write believable and life-like characters from what you know about yourself and people around you.


Ellie

[jeffrivera]

That's because Angelina (like everyone Brad Pitt has ever been in a long-term relationship with) has been steadily losing weight for months, and now that her body has reached the point of emaciation and her metabolism has finished devouring every ounce of fat in her body it's going for muscle tissue and anything else it can. That's why her lips are getting smaller and more shrivelled - and why I bet the same is happening to her boobs and butt. Sucks to be her.

Oh my God. You're so funny. She is losing a lot of weight, isn't she? But she looks good, still has some curves (not sure if they are natural or bought and paid for) but she's a talented actor, definitely. I would LOVE to meet her. :D

[jeffrivera]

[quote=Christine N.]'Cause you're not winning any friends here at the moment. We all enjoy advice about our work, but hate being preached to. If you'll notice, many of the threads here are questions about writing, then everyone chimes in with their opinions. There are no "here's how I did it, you can to!" threads.

quote] Hi Christine, when you have a moment take a look at my response to any egos I've bruised with my postings. I left it in the posting regarding the NY Times List. Thanks! -- :) Jeff

[jeffrivera]

Congrats on your success, Jeff. Thanks for the advice on 3-D characters. I read the first three chap's of your novel at Amazon and I'd like to find out more about your prose. How did you make the passive voice work? Did your editor mind it, or did s/he suggest it? What about the early jumps in story time? Did they have any concerns that it might seem jumpy? I only ask because these are things I've read that should be avoided if possible, so I'd like to know how you made them work.

Thanks.

Didn't know there existed hundreds of books on screenwriting. Didn't it seem repetitive by book 50? You have more patience than I.

Thanks buddy, great question. It's funny I think I broke a lot of rules, I just wrote from the heart. Having read all the books I could on writing, screenwriting and as many novels as could I just said, excuse me French but "** all that!" Hahha. I'm just going to write from my heart.

And so I did. I wrote the kind of novel that I would enjoy reading, hoping that other people would enjoy it too. I self-published it first and then Warner bought it. I was expecting a bunch of notes back and have to rewrite it, but all I got back was spelling and grammatical corrections. (Thank God cause I'm too lazy to have to rewrite all that over again. Hahhaa.)

What I was going to do originally was write it the way you read it, and then go back and change the style so that it was more like Nick Sparks. But like I said I was too lazy to rewrite and said "forget it, I wrote from my heart. They either like it or they don't." And thank God the company liked it.

As far as screenwriting books, God there's so many of them. But I tried to learn as much as I could from them. There was always at least one point that stood out the most in the books. My favorites are "Story" by Robert McKee and "The Whole Picture" by Richard Walter.

[janetbellinger]

Me too. Congratulations on landing Warner Books for a publisher. I confess to feeling a little envious.

Me too! I like using real people as a framework for my characters to. Sometimes I have to combine a bunch of real people, a little bit from this person, a little from that person and that helps.

[jeffrivera]

I think that you have to write believable and life-like characters from what you know about yourself and people around you.

Ellie

I agree with you 100% Ellie. I love to hear people's take on how they create characters. What's your take on creating dialogue for your characters so it doesn't all sound exactly the same?

[aruna]

I don;t create my characters any way like this; they are born fully fleshed somewhere inside me, and appear fully formed on the page, I don't know where they come from.

And I am taken aback by jeff's reference - the second time - to "bruised egos". Jeff, it might be a good idea to listen to some of the polite hints and direct objections to the way you're behaving on this message board. There ARE other ways of doing it.

[Sheryl Nantus]

82 posts in less than three days?

not so much "bruised" as "bored"...

[Christine N.]

Yeah, I replied to that. Not bruised ego, more like annoyed by the buzzing of the gnat.

[jeffrivera]

Yeah, I replied to that. Not bruised ego, more like annoyed by the buzzing of the gnat.

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbnGDjG6l6E7T6tM:http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDCompare9/bambi_/bambi_r1_PDVD_003a01.jpg

Hahaha. I love this forum. Remember Christine what Bambi's mother said, "If you can't say anything nice ..." you know the rest ...

I love you guys anyway.

[Toothpaste]

Dude the link didn't work. What was it of? A gnat?

[Manderley]

Lol.

Nah, it's just a picture of Bambi. Just remove the stuff infront of http and you'll see it.

[badducky]

I'm probably going to get into trouble for saying this, but I think it's very ironic that JeffRivera has posted about how to create 3-dimensional characters...

(because he has yet to establish himself as one ;))

[jeffrivera]

(because he has yet to establish himself as one ;))

bad ... bad ducky ... bad!

Hahhaa. You're funny.

[Elodie-Caroline]

Hi Jeff,
I think in the way in which my characters would. They're based on different parts of my psyche, but they're not 'me' as me, if you can understand that. For instance -- when I was writing a bit of dialogue for my feisty character, I wanted her to say something in in the same way in which I would have done, bluntly and tactlessly, but she wouldn't, she has a voice and a manner all of her own now. My meek and mild one never swears, whereas I do... a lot. Come to think of it, most of my characters hardly ever swear?

But when I am writing my characters, male and female, I write with thier own voices and the tones they would use inside of my head; it's like they're talking to and through me... Yes, the men in the white coats will be knocking at my door any minute now! lol :D Plus, I've always had a really vivid imagination, so that helps in creating characters and their dialogue.

Ellie

I agree with you 100% Ellie. I love to hear people's take on how they create characters. What's your take on creating dialogue for your characters so it doesn't all sound exactly the same?

[jeffrivera]

that's really interesting Ellie, do you ever feel like you're watching a movie and just dictating what you see? That's how I feel, like I'm watching a movie. That's why I refer to my readers as an "audience".

[Christine N.]

Characters, for me, develop as I write. I'm mostly an organic writer, not one that develops deep outlines, so I learn about the characters as I write them.

I do a lot of rewriting, but I truly enjoy it, more than writing the first draft. I love finding out something about the character that I didn't know before. Sounds weird, but sometimes my fingers type things and I go "wow, who saw that coming?"

I'm a reader as much as a writer, and I like to be entertained, to discover, while I write. I might have an idea of what they look like, and I'll write vital statistics down, but I never do a detailed sketch, because that sort of a) keeps them one-dimensional, on the paper, and b) it's no fun. You can't learn everything about a real person by reading a description of them, nor can you of imaginary characters. IMO, of course.

[badducky]

Here's a useful starting point for anyone who might not be aware of such a thing. Check at the top of the thread for the stickied index from this forum. Here's the index about characters:
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=657708&postcount=4

[Elektra]

I think it's time for Jeff's third chance.

I've noticed some people have "instructions" for themselves as their sig. Therefore, I've taken the liberty to make a couple for Jeff:

1. You shall not call anybody "buddy" or "sweetheart"

2. Before you hit "send", ask yourself: would I feel patronized if someone said this to me?

3. Please stop thinking--or at least stop saying--that any dislike we may have from your posts derives from jealousy, a feeling of inferiority, or a "bruised ego".

ETA after reading another post: Add "Sweety" to the list of things you should never call strangers, neither on the internet nor in real life

[imagoodgurl4]

I don't think you need to "create" characters in the conventional sense of the word. I don't have any writing credits of my own, but I think that a great character takes on a life of their own and personality, regardless of how you intend them to be. My female M.C. started off as a nice, sweet person who'd caught a few bad breaks...she's turned into this surly, sarcastic, b#tch...who has a few redeeming qualities...and she's much more fun to write. Just my two cents!

[PennStater]

Hi Jeff,

I'm going to give you some great advice. I hope you use it because it has worked well for me.

First impressions are everything. You only get one chance at it. So make a big entrance so that everyone knows you are here. Make yourself a 3-D character on my computer screen. Sign your name to everything. Put a picture of your work that doesn't fit on my 15" monitor, and by all means, do make sure you let everyone know that you are ready to offer tidbits of your genius to everyone here. I think I might base a character on you, but I don't know if I could fit your ego in the book and still get it closed.

Overall, awesome, and I do mean awesome, first impression. Way to go, buddy!

[Elodie-Caroline]

Yes, that's exactly how I feel Jeff! I only hope that I can do justice with my words as to what I'm 'seeing'. I know that we're told 'to show, not tell'. But I fear that my stories won't be that way and that I will be telling exactly what I'm personally seeing for the most part I'm afraid.

Ellie


that's really interesting Ellie, do you ever feel like you're watching a movie and just dictating what you see? That's how I feel, like I'm watching a movie. That's why I refer to my readers as an "audience".

[jeffrivera]

I think it's time for Jeff's third chance.

Elektra, that's old news. We've moved on from that subject pages ago, we're focusing on the subject of this email, "creating 3 D characters".

What do you do to create 3 D characters Elektra?

[farfromfearless]

I think it's time for Jeff's third chance.

I've noticed some people have "instructions" for themselves as their sig. Therefore, I've taken the liberty to make a couple for Jeff:

1. You shall not call anybody "buddy" or "sweetheart"

2. Before you hit "send", ask yourself: would I feel patronized if someone said this to me?

3. Please stop thinking--or at least stop saying--that any dislike we may have from your posts derives from jealousy, a feeling of inferiority, or a "bruised ego".

I second that, and I think my next mashed potato character will be named Jeff in honor of our esteemed (correction: Fanatical) member. The first attempt turned out terrible, lets hope the second fares better.

[J. Weiland]

Hi Jeff,

I'm going to give you some great advice. I hope you use it because it has worked well for me.

First impressions are everything. You only get one chance at it. So make a big entrance so that everyone knows you are here. Make yourself a 3-D character on my computer screen. Sign your name to everything. Put a picture of your work that doesn't fit on my 15" monitor, and by all means, do make sure you let everyone know that you are ready to offer tidbits of your genius to everyone here. I think I might base a character on you, but I don't know if I could fit your ego in the book and still get it closed.

Overall, awesome, and I do mean awesome, first impression. Way to go, buddy!

Is that you, nicegrrl? :hi: :ROFL:

[Elektra]

What do you do to create 3 D characters Elektra?

I became one myself.

[jeffrivera]

I don't think you need to "create" characters in the conventional sense of the word. I don't have any writing credits of my own, but I think that a great character takes on a life of their own and personality, regardless of how you intend them to be. My female M.C. started off as a nice, sweet person who'd caught a few bad breaks...she's turned into this surly, sarcastic, b#tch...who has a few redeeming qualities...and she's much more fun to write. Just my two cents!

That's a good point, I love it when they kind of argue with you and do what they want to do not what you wanted them to do, then you know they've taken on a life of their own.

[jeffrivera]

I became one myself.

OMG let it go. That is so old news, once again we're focusing on the original subject of this email, "creating 3 D characters" stay focused. If you're that passionate on bashing me and my so-called "arrogance" then create a thread just for that and bash me all you want. But for now, I ask for the love of God let's stay positive and talk about "3 D characters"

Thanks!

:D Jeff

[badducky]

Jeff, have you had a chance to take a look at many of the other threads that go into great detail about this very subject from the forum index?

As Katiemac says, many of the same questions and concerns pop up repeatedly. This topic is no exception at all. Perhaps joining the discussion already in progress from a previous post will be more useful than picking an argument with Elektra.

[Elodie-Caroline]

Well, I know one thing. If I'm ever lucky enough to become published as a writer; I'm certainly not advertising it on here to get b!tched at! lol :D

[jeffrivera]

I don't blame you Ellie, hahaha, my God. You can get attacked -- "attack of the writers" sounds like a great next novel. Hahaha

I like your pic by the way, it reminds of some star, I'm just trying to remember what her name is. I have to get some new pics soon. I better get some botox first and some implants in all the right places. Hahhaha. Just kidding.

[Christine N.]

Elodie, we're not bitching at him. I never downplay the achievements of others.

What we're offended by is Jeff's general tone and attitude, like he's the big fish who just stepped into a little pond. Without introducing himself, just splash - cannonballing his way into the wading pool.

I'm glad to cheer for people's accomplishments - we have a forum just for such things. We have tons of published authors (some multi-published by Big Publishers) here too. There's always room for one more, but I get the feeling there's no room for anyone but Jeff and his ego.

If nothing else, he can't take a hint.

First impressions are everything. You only get one chance at it. So make a big entrance so that everyone knows you are here. Make yourself a 3-D character on my computer screen. Sign your name to everything. Put a picture of your work that doesn't fit on my 15" monitor, and by all means, do make sure you let everyone know that you are ready to offer tidbits of your genius to everyone here. I think I might base a character on you, but I don't know if I could fit your ego in the book and still get it closed.


Here, here! Author, author!

I've tried. Lots of others have tried. I even tried ignoring the pomposity of the posts, but it's just not working.

It's not that we don't want him here, we just want him to a) stop the chest-thumping, b) stop the book flogging and c) just hang out and be a writer, not an "AUTHOR." We're all on even footing when we step into the water cooler.

And now, I think I'll totally use the ignore function. I suggest others do the same. It'll be quiet here - maybe Jeff'll wind up talking to himself.

[farfromfearless]

Are there eggs? Where are the eggs? I want to throw some eggs damn it! (Rotten veggies will do too)

[jeffrivera]

Wow are we still talking about that? My god I've tried to move past that subject pages of message boards ago, but some people want to keep bringing it up over and over again. I give up, keep bashing all you want. At least someone's getting something out of it. I invite you once again to go to the original posting you'll notice it has nothing to do with arrogance simply a posting about creating 3 D characters. All this other stuff is imagined. And I'm not giving any more energy to it.

I'm going to stay focused and positive on the subject of this forum which is I believe creating "3 D Characters".

So back to the subject, Do you ever act your scenes out with your characters in order to get a feel for them?

[PeeDee]

So back to the subject, Do you ever act your scenes out with your characters in order to get a feel for them?

Actually, that's a pretty valid question. I don't particularly act them out, because I would feel very silly in my living room playing Krondor The Destroyer Versus Alabaster The Brave With Pete Tzinski Playing All Parts, Including Damsel In Distress (and if I ever write anything along those lines, please hang me). What I will do is if I'm out for a walk, I'll do conversations between characters. Sometimes conversations, sometimes just one character talking about what's happening around him. Sometimes, I just talk as myself about what's happening in the book and what I think about it.

I don't generally get anything that I can use, verbatim, out of all that. Mostly, what I get is a feeling for a character, or a scene, or a part of my book. Sometimes, I get nothing more out of it than making myself really want to go home and write some part of my book that I was otherwise dreading approaching.

So yes, I think that's a perfectly valid approach. Barring usefulness, it can be just a lot of fun.

[Siddow]

What I will do is if I'm out for a walk, I'll do conversations between characters. Sometimes conversations, sometimes just one character talking about what's happening around him.

That's not character creation. That's schizoprenia.

*ducks and runs out of the room*

[veinglory]

I do that to. In fact I am normally visualising the scene in my head, with ample use of the pause button, given my typing speed. When alone, I have been known to say the lines.

[Toothpaste]

I'll confess I do sit in my living room and act out one character, while having the other one talk to me in my head. So that I am playing the part of character A, complete with mannerisms and accent, and character B is invisibly interacting with me. I come up with my best dialogue that way.

I also may have multiple personality disorder. But I prefer to think of it as an artistic quirk.

[PeeDee]

I do that to. In fact I am normally visualising the scene in my head, with ample use of the pause button, given my typing speed. When alone, I have been known to say the lines.

It's not a bad idea. After awhile, you develop a feel for how dialogue should sound. Sometimes, though, if a line sounds a bit wonky, I'll say it out loud to the cats. If I feel like a jerk, I'll probably do a re-write. Is it something you'd feel silly saying in front of an audience? If you're recording the audiobook and you are embarassed to have the sound tech hear the line, then it needs to go away.

[inanna]

I don't act out my scenes, but I'm a huge space cadet, so I'm constantly daydreaming them. I get a lot of dialogue passages almost verbatim from that. But I have to scribble it down afterwards, or I'll usually forget.

I'm huge believer in the letting the power of the subconscious flesh-out plot and character. That's why worksheets and formulas just don't do it for me.

[janetbellinger]

You can call me buddy if you like, Jeff. I don't mind. Of course, I'm just a junior member here and others obviously object. I don't really think Jeff is bragging, when you compare the way Alien Enigma carried on. Now that was boasting. Jeff listens to what others have to say. Alien did not. He just promoted his own agenda.

I don;t create my characters any way like this; they are born fully fleshed somewhere inside me, and appear fully formed on the page, I don't know where they come from.

And I am taken aback by jeff's reference - the second time - to "bruised egos". Jeff, it might be a good idea to listen to some of the polite hints and direct objections to the way you're behaving on this message board. There ARE other ways of doing it.

[JennaGlatzer]

Jeff, before we go any further here and before you tell anyone what they should and shouldn't talk about, I want an actual promise from you:

I want you to promise that you will STOP saying that people are feeling inferior, jealous, or that their egos are bruised. It's damn annoying. You're not listening to anything anyone is saying in this respect. Many people here are trying to help you be part of this community in a genuine way. You can't do that as long as you refuse to even acknowledge that you MAY have done something wrong in your approach.

And before you even think it: I've had 16 books published. Nope, I'm not in any way insecure or jealous of you. I'm put off by your tone; there's a difference. I think you have something to share here, and I wish you'd stop making things worse by continuing to patronize the folks here. A small slice of humble pie could go a long way.

You mentioned that there were lots of "jealous" people on other forums, too. Ever think that maybe it's not *them*? Maybe it actually, really is time to reevaluate your approach? Because I can tell you that most of the time, this is a very welcoming community and we celebrate the heck out of each other's accomplishments. And we give second chances when people don't make the best first impression. But multiple times on multiple threads, established authors and newbies alike have told you the same thing about your approach, and instead of making any change, you're blowing it all off with a "you're all just jealous" rationalization. This is my last effort to get through to you.

[stormie]

... when you compare the way Alien Enigma carried on. Now that was boasting.
Darn. I missed that one.

[rugcat]

I invite you once again to go to the original posting you'll notice it has nothing to do with arrogance simply a posting about creating 3 D characters.
Okay.
How to Create Great 3 Dimensional Characters:
by Warner Books' Author - Jeff Rivera

A lot of people after reading my debut novel, "Forever My Lady" ask me how I created such 3 dimensional characters. They looked at my book cover and expected a strictly plot-driven story with not much character development, until they read it. Even one former William Morris agent said it's the best character-driven story he's ever read. Well, I don't know about that but I do know I had a lot of fun writing it.

How did I create 3D characters? Well, after years of studying screenwriting I used those skills and those I developed on my own or learned from the hundreds of screenwriting books I read to create a system that guarantees a three dimensional story.
Not to beat a dead horse, but I think this qualifies as braggadocio at least.

If you really want to see how to create three dimensional characters, check out Maurice Sendaks new pop-up book, MOMMY?

[PeeDee]

Okay.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I think this qualifies as braggadocio at least.

If you really want to see how to create three dimensional characters, check out Maurice Sendaks new pop-up book, MOMMY?

I was just looking at that yesterday. We have it at my little bookstore, that I work in. It's magnificant. I adore Maurice Sendak. I have a Maurice Sendak t-shirt somewhere, I need to find that again.

[Marlowe]

My characters are generally two-dimensional. Any larger, and it becomes difficult to send manuscripts by mail.

[johnzakour]

I make my characters one-dimensional. I find that really saves on postage and bandwidth.

[J. Weiland]

As you might know, I'm into Science Fiction, so I prefer at least seven dimensions.

[Sheryl Nantus]

As you might know, I'm into Science Fiction, so I prefer at least seven dimensions.

including time.

most of my characters are my great-grandchildren.

or I'm their great-grandchild.

I keep getting that mixed up.

:D

[PeeDee]

The best way to create great characters is this: Make sure that all of your characters have a six-degrees-of-Kevin-Bacon somewhere. After that, you can't fail. It'll work. Every time. Promise.

[badducky]

J. Weiland, do you find you have to watch the response times carefully before submitting the manuscripts carved in melting intergalactic plasmatic ice that eventually sucks everyone into Jack McDevitt's non-linear Armstrong Space?

[Akuma]

The best way to create great characters is this: Make sure that all of your characters have a six-degrees-of-Kevin-Bacon somewhere. After that, you can't fail. It'll work. Every time. Promise.

Can I trust you anymore, PeeDee?

I don't know. I just don't know... *gazes off into the distance*

[rugcat]

Can I trust you anymore, PeeDee? You trusted him?

[janetbellinger]

How about the Fifth Dimension - anybody remember them - Aquarius/Let the Sun Shine In?

[J. Weiland]

J. Weiland, do you find you have to watch the response times carefully before submitting the manuscripts carved in melting intergalactic plasmatic ice that eventually sucks everyone into Jack McDevitt's non-linear Armstrong Space?

Nah...the postal workers get annoyed when I hang out at the post office, silently licking my lips as I wait for them to empty the mailbox. :e2fight:

[Elodie-Caroline]

LOL Jeff... and the star you probably mean is Miss Piggy, right? lol ;) My dad always likened me to Diana Dors, which I found a compliment -- I could certainly think of a lot worse to be likened to lol.

I don't blame you Ellie, hahaha, my God. You can get attacked -- "attack of the writers" sounds like a great next novel. Hahaha

I like your pic by the way, it reminds of some star, I'm just trying to remember what her name is. I have to get some new pics soon. I better get some botox first and some implants in all the right places. Hahhaha. Just kidding.


Christine,
I have to admit, I haven't read everything on here from before I initially posted. I just know that I would be chuffed to bits with myself and probably very over exuberant if I were ever to be published; I probably wouldn't be able to contain myself. I just like to think that I can share in someone's achievements, whether I know them or not; Jeff has been perfectly ok with me, so that's how I treat him in return. :)

Ellie

Elodie, we're not bitching at him. I never downplay the achievements of others.

[farfromfearless]

The best way to create great characters is this: Make sure that all of your characters have a six-degrees-of-Kevin-Bacon somewhere. After that, you can't fail. It'll work. Every time. Promise.

Kevin Bacon!! I was wondering when someone would bring him up!

[arrowqueen]

I like to make mine in origami and colour them in with my crayons.

:D

[J. Weiland]

Kevin Bacon!! I was wondering when someone would bring him up!

Perhaps this would bring some flavor to the character?

[Christine N.]

Is there a Godwin's Law for Kevin Bacon?

mmm... bacon.

Sorry. I know, I know, this is how we'll end this thread.


Orlando Bloom.

[Cath]

I'll confess I do sit in my living room and act out one character, while having the other one talk to me in my head. ... I also may have multiple personality disorder. But I prefer to think of it as an artistic quirk.

I don't particularly act them out,...What I will do is if I'm out for a walk, I'll do conversations between characters. Sometimes conversations, sometimes just one character talking about what's happening around him. Sometimes, I just talk as myself about what's happening in the book and what I think about it.

So yes, I think that's a perfectly valid approach. Barring usefulness, it can be just a lot of fun.

I do both of these.

I think there is a certain schizophrenia associated with being a writer, especially if you're the type who becomes your characters (I am when I'm writing at my best). Sometimes, I find it swallows me whole and I lose track of the real me - which can be disorientating!

So, yes, I do act out scenes (sometimes), I often talk to my characters (especially when I'm in my car). And yes, I do find it helpful.

[farfromfearless]

I do both of these...

So, yes, I do act out scenes (sometimes), I often talk to my characters (especially when I'm in my car). And yes, I do find it helpful.


What happens if your MC is a woman? (ignore me.) I just realized a fundamental flaw in that.

[Cath]

Not. Allowed. To use. Emoticons.

Darnit, you made me laugh and I can't ROFL at you, farfromfearless.

[stormie]

Here, Cath, I'll do it for you: :ROFL:

[jeffrivera]

I love hearing how everyone approaches character, and the comment about letting your subconcious do the writing is so true too. After I figure out who the characters are I just let them do what they want.

As far as acting the characters out ... I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who does that! :D

[jeffrivera]

Hahhaa. In all the madness I forgot to wish everyone
Happy Holidays!
(Merry Christmas, Kwanzaa or anything else you might be celebrating!)

[JennaGlatzer]

So what you're saying is... no, you can't do this?

Jeff, before we go any further here and before you tell anyone what they should and shouldn't talk about, I want an actual promise from you:

I want you to promise that you will STOP saying that people are feeling inferior, jealous, or that their egos are bruised.

[Christine N.]

He likes ignoring things he doesn't want to hear is all, Jenna. I mean, we've tried nice and we've tried not so nice. Nice doesn't seem to work, and not so nice just gets us painted with the jealousy brush.

You've been very sweet to him, and he won't take what you're offering. Shame.

[Elektra]

He likes ignoring things he doesn't want to hear is all, Jenna. I mean, we've tried nice and we've tried not so nice. Nice doesn't seem to work, and not so nice just gets us painted with the jealousy brush.

You've been very sweet to him, and he won't take what you're offering. Shame.

So true. You'll also find he never responded, in his multiplicity of posts, to my concerns about his Amazon reviews. I think it's time we all ignore him and move on.

[farfromfearless]

Off Topic: That book cover is really starting to aggravate me, and I'm a fan of luscious lips.

[Akuma]

Even if ignorance is bliss, who are we to take contentment away from him? He's had success and we should be glad for him, no matter what kind of flaws he may or may not have.

Staying neutral, let's turn this thread back around to something useful, perhaps character discussion, as originally intended. :)

I've recently become worried that I don't know my characters as well as I would like, so I've begun expressing their outlooks and emotions through poetry.
For some reason, writing a seperate scene of their lives outside plot just doesn't hasn't worked for me.

I also seem to have trouble in interviews--either I can't ask the right questions or it doesn't feel right because a character (let alone a real person) doesn't just spill their darkest secrets.

If anyone has tips on interviewing characters, mind sharing? I would really like to know! Hence, the bold.

But, yeah, the poetry has been fun and interesting. Also a nice way to get the creative juices flowing.

Just my two Orlando Blooms.

[gp101]

Thanks buddy, great question. It's funny I think I broke a lot of rules, I just wrote from the heart. Having read all the books I could on writing, screenwriting and as many novels as could I just said, excuse me French but "** all that!" Hahha. I'm just going to write from my heart.

And so I did. I wrote the kind of novel that I would enjoy reading, hoping that other people would enjoy it too. I self-published it first and then Warner bought it. I was expecting a bunch of notes back and have to rewrite it, but all I got back was spelling and grammatical corrections. (Thank God cause I'm too lazy to have to rewrite all that over again. Hahhaa.)

You sure did break a lot of rules, that's why I asked how your editor didn't mind. A couple of rules being broken along the course of a novel by a newbie is not earth-shattering. But you stuck to the passive tense like a tongue to a cold, steel pole in sub-zero weather, and seemed to enjoy telling rather than showing an aweful lot: approximately 12 uses of was/were (or wasn't/weren't) on page 1 (which was more like a half-page), about 13 uses of that word on page 2, and about the same for page 3. You also repeat words very close to each other in short space (like the word "even" or, well, "was" for example). And you use the numbers 5, 13, and a few others in your prose instead of spelling them out.

I just wanted to know how you made it all come together like that. I only read the first three on Amazon, so I was hoping you could shed some light on how we might be able to get away with all this, if we were so inclined to do so, that is. I'm thinking this old-fashioned "show" vs "tell" rule has run out its course, don't you?

BTW, I didn't see Warner listed as a publisher. They listed some other company that I never heard of and that didn't produce any useful hits when I ran it in a search engine, as if it didn't have a web site or hadn't been mentioned by anybody ever on the web or something. Better have Amazon fix that.





As far as screenwriting books, God there's so many of them. But I tried to learn as much as I could from them. There was always at least one point that stood out the most in the books. My favorites are "Story" by Robert McKee and "The Whole Picture" by Richard Walter.


Cool. Can you recommend a few we might not be familiar with? Out of the hundreds you've read, there have to be a few obscure ones that we've never heard of. Every little kernel of knowledge helps. Thanks, dude.

[aruna]

You can call me buddy if you like, Jeff. I don't mind. Of course, I'm just a junior member here and others obviously object. I don't really think Jeff is bragging, when you compare the way Alien Enigma carried on. Now that was boasting. Jeff listens to what others have to say. Alien did not. He just promoted his own agenda.

And Jeff is not doing that?
I was not going to say anything more on the subject of Jeff - it's too minor, and the mods can deal with him - but I find him MUCH worse than AE.
It may be my British upbringing to modesty but I've never been able to stand grand entrances. Going into a room and announcing "A three-time-published HarperCollins author here!" would - well, if I ever got to that stage I hope someone would give me a good hard kick in the butt!

There's quite simply a total lack of nettiquette here; and when he is called up on it throws out slurs such as "bruised egos". Well, my ego is not bruised but when I come across blustering, boasting know-it-alls in real life I simply walk away. I don't want to know them.

True, his attitude seems to have won him some initial publishing success. But I was never one to take success as the sole measure of a person's authority, or as a reason to suck up. It's far more important to me what a person actually says and does. Some of the advice he's doling out and some of the things Jeff is doing seem extremely questionable to me: self-publishing a book laden with errors, submitting a first draft because he was "too lazy" to revise, for instance. He is setting himself up as some sort of a teacher here on AW, and considering these methods I would urge unpublished writers here to caution. Take his words with a large pinch of salt.

He may have won a publishing contract with Warner but so what? As JAR said, staying published is the trick. He is still a beginner in publishing yet is pretending to be an expert.

I've been on AW about 18 months and not ever have I had such a rush of reps, PMs and mails complaining of one single person - not even in Shelagh's day.

We can't ALL be burning up with jealousy! I certainly hope he takes Jenna's words seriously and gives himelf one hard look. He's rubbing a lot of people the wrong way, and that does mean something.

[Willowmound]

Also his posts have a springiness-of-prose reminiscent of dead fish, though I admit that's beside the point.

Still, needed to be said.

[Stacia Kane]

I am four degrees from Kevin Bacon.

But only three from George Lucas.

[Christine N.]

I actually met Kevin Bacon. Does that count?

[farfromfearless]

Woot! Thanks Christine, now that makes me only 2 Degrees from Kevin Bacon!

[PeeDee]

I am quite a lot of degrees of Kevin Bacon, which I consider a mark of how well my life is going. I can't think of a single good movie he's been in. Maybe excusing Tremors, because that's a fun thing to watch on a boring Saturday afternoon. Certainly, the world was a better place without Hollow Man. Possibly without Wild Things as well.

[Christine N.]

You didn't like Footloose? What about Stir of Echoes? I kind dug that one.

[Elodie-Caroline]

'Murder in the First' was Kevin Bacon's only decent film in my opinion.

[Carrie in PA]

I thought Criminal Law was all right.

[dmytryp]

I am quite a lot of degrees of Kevin Bacon, which I consider a mark of how well my life is going. I can't think of a single good movie he's been in. Maybe excusing Tremors, because that's a fun thing to watch on a boring Saturday afternoon. Certainly, the world was a better place without Hollow Man. Possibly without Wild Things as well.

Mystic river?

[jeffrivera]

Whatever happened to Kevin Bacon? I know he did that one film the Woodsman I think. You know what there's that website: http://www.imbdb.com I think it is that has a listing of just about every movie that ever made. I'll have to check that out.

[Christine N.]

I liked him in "A Few Good Men" also.

[johnzakour]

His wife is excellent in "The Closer" on TNT.

[anodyne]

I've never seen a single one of those films. Am I too young or just out of the loop?

<has, however, heard of the six degrees of Kevin Bacon> :boggle:

[Christine N.]

And let me tell you, Kyra Sedgewick is one of the SWEETEST people I've ever met. Kevin and Kyra are really nice people, totally unlike what most people think about "Hollywood"

With Kevin I guess it comes from that good South Philly upbringing. LOL

Now the real question is... is Kevin Bacon a 3 dimensional character? :D

[endless rewrite]

The Woodsman was a fantastic movie. I thought it was a brave role for an actor to take on and he did it so well, utterly convincing.

[janetbellinger]

AE was strictly about himself. Jeff is trying to p ass on what he has learned. Obviously, that is not going over so well with a lot of people here, so he'll have to consider that. I haven't read Jeff's book but even if I had, I would not base my response to him as a person based on what I thought of his writing. I didn't like AE 's writing, but I didn't put him down on account of it. Even if a person writes badly, they still are worthwhile and might have something to say I can learn from. B ut since others don't feel the same way, Jeff, please send your informational posts to me personally , because I can learn from everybody. Having said that, I'm over to Barbara's post on SYW to apologize for trashing her "Spirit of Christmas Giving," article in the Humor section.

And Jeff is not doing that?
I was not going to say anything more on the subject of Jeff - it's too minor, and the mods can deal with him - but I find him MUCH worse than AE.
It may be my British upbringing to modesty but I've never been able to stand grand entrances. Going into a room and announcing "A three-time-published HarperCollins author here!" would - well, if I ever got to that stage I hope someone would give me a good hard kick in the butt!

There's quite simply a total lack of nettiquette here; and when he is called up on it throws out slurs such as "bruised egos". Well, my ego is not bruised but when I come across blustering, boasting know-it-alls in real life I simply walk away. I don't want to know them.

True, his attitude seems to have won him some initial publishing success. But I was never one to take success as the sole measure of a person's authority, or as a reason to suck up. It's far more important to me what a person actually says and does. Some of the advice he's doling out and some of the things Jeff is doing seem extremely questionable to me: self-publishing a book laden with errors, submitting a first draft because he was "too lazy" to revise, for instance. He is setting himself up as some sort of a teacher here on AW, and considering these methods I would urge unpublished writers here to caution. Take his words with a large pinch of salt.

He may have won a publishing contract with Warner but so what? As JAR said, staying published is the trick. He is still a beginner in publishing yet is pretending to be an expert.

I've been on AW about 18 months and not ever have I had such a rush of reps, PMs and mails complaining of one single person - not even in Shelagh's day.

We can't ALL be burning up with jealousy! I certainly hope he takes Jenna's words seriously and gives himelf one hard look. He's rubbing a lot of people the wrong way, and that does mean something.

[johnzakour]

And let me tell you, Kyra Sedgewick is one of the SWEETEST people I've ever met. Kevin and Kyra are really nice people, totally unlike what most people think about "Hollywood"


I never remember seeing her in anything before the "The Closer" but I know she has a lot of credits (45) listed in IMDB.

[anodyne]

Janet, if I can tender a guess, it would be "how" he was sharing his experience, not that he is. We can learn from everyone, but some people make the task onerous.

Here on AW there are a lot of authors who have been published multiple times. Times best sellers, and what not. There are people who've won awards, and people who've published in "the big times". Notice, none of them are making that call to authority in their every post? We have people from all walks of life, with all types of education and publishing credits. To come to a group of peers, not knowing their backgrounds or publishing history and go, "well, I'm a published author, so obviously you all want to know what I think on the subject" is moderately obnoxious, so I can understand the response.

Congrats Jeff on the good reviews and published novel. Romance isn't really my genre or I'd give it a shot. Care to post in the Share your work forum? I'd love to see an example of your characterization.

[Shadow_Ferret]

How did we get on Kevin Bacon? He's doing Hanes commercials with Michael Jordon.

[anodyne]

I never remember seeing her in anything before the "The Closer" but I know she has a lot of credits (45) listed in IMDB.

She holds her mouth oddly when she talks. Is the accent affected?

[johnzakour]

She holds her mouth oddly when she talks. Is the accent affected?

I actually thought that was acting in character.

[Stacia Kane]

Kevin Bacon, not in good movies? What about JFK? Or is my house the only one where the line, "You a good-lookin' man, Mr. Garrison, when I get out o'here I'm gonna come see you," is regularly spoken?

Animal House?

And I too loved Stir of Echoes.

[janetbellinger]

Janet, if I can tender a guess, it would be "how" he was sharing his experience, not that he is. We can learn from everyone, but some people make the task onerous.

Here on AW there are a lot of authors who have been published multiple times. Times best sellers, and what not. There are people who've won awards, and people who've published in "the big times". Notice, none of them are making that call to authority in their every post? We have people from all walks of life, with all types of education and publishing credits. To come to a group of peers, not knowing their backgrounds or publishing history and go, "well, I'm a published author, so obviously you all want to know what I think on the subject" is moderately obnoxious, so I can understand the response.

Congrats Jeff on the good reviews and published novel. Romance isn't really my genre or I'd give it a shot. Care to post in the Share your work forum? I'd love to see an example of your characterization.

True. I do wish the best selling authors would identify themselves occasionally though so I could know they knew for sure what they were talking about. I mean, obviously James MacDonald and Jenna have many publishing credits.

[anodyne]

I actually thought that was acting in character.

<blinks> How so?

[anodyne]

Well Janet, I think the idea is that they don't want people fawning all over their every word and treating it like gospel. Writing is an art and a trade. Coming to something as an equal rather than Moses off the mount is probably a lot more comfortable for them.

[johnzakour]

<blinks> How so?

Having only see her in The Closer I "assumed" she was playing a character who talked like that.

[anodyne]

<blinks> with her mouth all scrunched up? Or the southern accent?

It just looks like this girl in my acting class who couldn't quite get the southern accent, she'd keep her lips all taut like that when she spoke.

[johnzakour]

<blinks> with her mouth all scrunched up? Or the southern accent?


The mouth scrunch part, I just assumed she was playing a character who talks with her mouth like that...

Hey, I'm naive.

[aruna]

AE was strictly about himself. Jeff is trying to p ass on what he has learned. ogize for trashing her "Spirit of Christmas Giving," article in the Humor section.

But much of what he "has learned" is highly questionable and VERY inadvisable for anyone serious about getting published.

[janetbellinger]

I wasn't planning on fawning all over them but if a bestselling novelist tells me not to use adjectives, I'm more likely to quit using adjectives than if an unpublished writer tells me to quit using them. I do have my own opinions but I can change, especially when the advice is coming from a credible source.

reads it in a vWell Janet, I think the idea is that they don't want people fawning all over their every word and treating it like gospel. Writing is an art and a trade. Coming to something as an equal rather than Moses off the mount is probably a lot more comfortable for them.

[jeffrivera]

I loved Kyra in the Phenomenon movie, or was it something else with John Travolta. Has anyone seen Will Smith's new movie, I want to go and see it. Maybe I should see it today. I know this is off topic but my cousin saw a sneak preview of DreamGirls said it was AMAZING. I definitely want to see that.

[Toothpaste]

Anyone else struck by the varying discussions in this thread? Kevin Bacon and Kyra, Jeff's propriety or lack there of, oh and that whole question of 3D characters? It's almost like we're all at a party, standing in a close clump but only talking to the person next to us. I for one, am finding it all highly entertaining! Maybe this post will strike up a fourth conversation!

[johnzakour]

This is the most fun I've had in a thread.

Oh and Janet, please continue to use adjectives.

(John Zakour, best selling author at least according to Locus Magazine: http://www.locusmag.com/2006/Issues/03LocusBestsellers.html) ;-)

[Elodie-Caroline]

for myself; I wouldn't fawn all over some famous book writer, I wouldn't bother to do it to an actor/ess either -- they're only people after all. I would treat them how I wanted to be treated; I wouldn't want my privacy invaded, I would hate to be famous and have all those adoring fans clamouring after a piece of me. So that's exactly how I would treat someone famous, or semi-famous, with some people, the fame is only in their own minds :p

Ellie

[victoriastrauss]

Guys, this thread has gone off topic into Office Partyland. Maybe we can bring it back to the original subject, or just let it sink.

- Victoria

[davids]

Well Janet, I think the idea is that they don't want people fawning all over their every word and treating it like gospel. Writing is an art and a trade. Coming to something as an equal rather than Moses off the mount is probably a lot more comfortable for them.

I am with Victoria here-Anodyne has hit the nail on the head as far as I am concerned-a very valid point. I would just add that perhaps it is more fun for said successful authors who may value their anonymity to just have a bit of fun and also be helpful if they so wish without having every word they say hung upon. What was this thread about?

[badducky]

Feel free to fawn on me and/or treat me like Moses of the mount if you want, but be advised any actual, literal worshiping of me is against my religion. You can do it. Just don't tell me about it. I will not save you.

Also, I hereby vote we move the thread to OP.

[J. Weiland]

What was this thread about?

Not so easy to answer; the thread is three-dimensional by now. :D

Seriously, lock it.

[davids]

Do not Fawn you non-believers-Deer-you just en-deer-oh the horns have got us again. Back to topic? We are with J. Weiland top-ic or lock-it!

[badducky]

That is an even better idea, J. Weiland. (but I don't worship you, sorry.)

I hereby change my vote!

[JennaGlatzer]

I can try splitting the off-topic parts to Office Party (ETA: or not. It's really intertwined.) Meanwhile, as much as I know it'll pain us all to miss seeing those giant purple lips, Jeff has lost his signature privileges after twice ignoring the direct order of a moderator (me).

[johnzakour]

I'll be good from now on. I promise.

This topic did get picked up in the "Creating Characters" thread.

[janetbellinger]

Well, I may have learned to lay off fawning over famous writers but I did name a main character Fawn once. Deleted that one from my files, probably just as well, right?

[janetbellinger]

Good point, Elodie.
for myself; I wouldn't fawn all over some famous book writer, I wouldn't bother to do it to an actor/ess either -- they're only people after all. I would treat them how I wanted to be treated; I wouldn't want my privacy invaded, I would hate to be famous and have all those adoring fans clamouring after a piece of me. So that's exactly how I would treat someone famous, or semi-famous, with some people, the fame is only in their own minds :p

Ellie

[J. Weiland]

That is an even better idea, J. Weiland. (but I don't worship you, sorry.)

I hereby change my vote!

I would feel uncomfortable if you did, ducky.

[anodyne]

How do I create "3-D" characters?

Spider Jerusalem's glasses.

But really, I don't know, I'll tell you if I'm ever published. I just sort of, write about people doing interesting things in interesting places. Works for me, so far.

[PeeDee]

The most important thing you can do to create realistic characters is to have them speak realistically. Talk like people. Not necessarily "um, er, ah" but not in cliches either. go read Elmore Leonard, or Stephen King, see what I mean. People talk like people. So much else can be excused after that.

[jeffrivera]

How do I create "3-D" characters?

Spider Jerusalem's glasses.

But really, I don't know, I'll tell you if I'm ever published. I just sort of, write about people doing interesting things in interesting places. Works for me, so far.

Anodyne, whether you're published or not what you have to say about creating 3 D characters is just as valid as everyone else.

[anodyne]

Which goes back to the "writing dialogue" thread. Inter-connectivity... what a wonderful thing!

[PeeDee]

Of course. Creating a good character is more than making a grand entrance, having a secret, having angst, having the love of your life, whatever.

Being a good character is about being a human being, talking in a way that will sound proper to the reader's ear.

It's about not always acting perfectly and not always knowing what to do.

It's about screwing up, getting angry, falling in love, and sometimes failing to fall in love entirely, because that happens too.

A great character is not defined by what he can do, but by what his limitations are and what this does to him in the story.

Not everyone is a good guy. Not everyone is a bad guy. No one is strictly one or the other. And yet, sometimes human beings do conform to cliches all by themselves. There are humans who are really ignorant hicks, really moron valley girls. It's important to remember that a cliche is not predetermined, it's what emerges when someone acts and more importantly, reacts.

There's. That's damn well Pete Tzinski's Guide to Creating Characters.

[Elektra]

There's. That's damn well Pete Tzinski's Guide to Creating Characters.

Is there a full course we can sign up for?

[PeeDee]

I thought about starting a seperate thread to post that, but decided that it seemed a bit pompous of me. Which may sound like I'm taking a jab at someone, but I'm not. Much. Really. Anyway, short of the rest of my ranting about character, you just got the full course.

[Akuma]

Is there a full course we can sign up for?

Or perhaps a thread listing PeeDee's techniques and why they're fail-proof?

[PeeDee]

If they were fail proof, that would take have the fun out of writing a story. Half of the fun is going along, never quite sure if you're about to finish a short story or wreck it entirely, or if you even know who this character is who's wandered out to talk. The whole joy of writing is that there is no magical Ten Easy Steps To Making Gooder Books.

[Elektra]

But there are Ten Easy Steps to Making Badder ones. Which sounds like a fun title for a thread, actually.

[PeeDee]

But there are Ten Easy Steps to Making Badder ones. Which sounds like a fun title for a thread, actually.

Ten Easy Steps to Making Badder Books

1) Assuming you're the only person who's ever written about the subject.
(you're not; but you're the only you who has ever written about it. bring what you have to offer.)

2) Slop off your research.
(You may hate research, you may think no one's going to notice that you haven't covered a bow and string in the rain. Someone will notice, and you should care if they are pulled out of the book. Even if it's one person.)

3) Write Bad dialogue. (excuseable) Not care. (inexcuseable)
(Not everyone has a natural ear for dialogue. Only a slob doesn't worry about how it sounds.

4) Writing for yourself.
(you might write fiction in general to please yourself. That's fine. Just don't wander off on a ten-page description of something because it amuses you. Remember the reader. Always remember the reader.

Okay. I could only think of four. Anyone want to complete the list?

[Elektra]

5. Forget that the reader probably doesn't have the thorough a knowledge of an obscure subject that you do, and therefore probably won't get the inside jokes you keep writing in. Especially if the obscure subject has nothing to do with the book.

(Okay, that one may just be me)

[rugcat]

Not everyone is a good guy. Not everyone is a bad guy. No one is strictly one or the other. I am a 100% good guy. I just do bad things sometimes.

[PeeDee]

I am a 100% good guy. I just do bad things sometimes.

Same thing. It is. Really. I'm all out of. Sentences.

[rugcat]

Ten Easy Steps to Making Badder Books

5) Make plot hopelessly muddled and totally incomprehensible. Extra points if it's so confused that it's impossible to write a synopsis that makes sense.

[rugcat]

I am a 100% good guy. I just do bad things sometimes. Same thing. It is. Really. I'm all out of. Sentences. I know. Joke. Too subtle? Oh, well. Hey, this is fun!

[PeeDee]

I know. Joke. Too subtle? Oh, well. Hey, this is fun!

I knew you were kidding. I did. It's just that. Without my idiom. I can't quite manage. To get that. Across.

[Willowmound]

Anyone else struck by the varying discussions in this thread? Kevin Bacon and Kyra, Jeff's propriety or lack there of, oh and that whole question of 3D characters? It's almost like we're all at a party, standing in a close clump but only talking to the person next to us. I for one, am finding it all highly entertaining! Maybe this post will strike up a fourth conversation!

We're probably all drunk. What with the Christmas thing and all. Jingle-ho for everyone!

[Christine N.]

PeeDee, are you really William Shatner? You're righting like he talks, man, and it's freaking me out.

[badducky]

6) Rush through the early parts of the book with a big idea, and then just... kinda sorta... give up about halfway through.

;)

[Christine N.]

7) Aliens landing in Chapter 14

[Dawno]

8) Introduce a whole bunch of new characters mid-book, make readers think it's an important sub-plot, never tie up the loose ends they leave lying about when you've reached the end.

[badducky]

9) Repeat things for no apparent reason

10) Repeat things for no apparent reason

[Celia Cyanide]

7) Aliens landing in Chapter 14

What? Can I help it if that's how long it took for them to land? :)

[rugcat]

We actually have 11 now, due to my screwing up in the middle on the numbering. (Or does that count and it's now 12?)

Luckily, badducky helped out.

[farfromfearless]

8) Introduce a whole bunch of new characters mid-book, make readers think it's an important sub-plot, never tie up the loose ends they leave lying about when you've reached the end.

Robert Jordan, who? what??

[dmytryp]

Robert Jordan, who? what??

That's a series and you want loose ends in a series, otherwise there won't be next volumehttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

[PeeDee]

That's a series and you want loose ends in a series, otherwise there won't be next volumehttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

Given Mister Jordan's health right now, I don't have incredible hopes for a next volume anyway. I haven't read the series past the second book, so I'm safe from tremendous disappointment. I still hope he doesn't die, though. He's a wonderful man.

[badducky]

I think I speak for everyone (even as a non-fan, myself) when I say I hope to see ten more Robert Jordan-penned Wheel of Time epics and my prayers go out to him and his family.

Also, I propose 14) Start out with an outline for a certain number of chapters and events, lose count, and spin off into nonsense.

[ChaosTitan]

15) At the climactic moment where all is lost for your hero, have Zeus come down from on high and smite the bad guy. <---- highly recommended when writing a "badder book."

[stormie]

For a badder book: (Are we on #16?) Hail spel chek and gramer chek as the great god of MS Word.

[Akuma]

17)

Never ever ever put yourself in the story!
Not only can your view of yourself be somewhat...bias (seen here (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49245),)
but it practically destroys the believibility of the story.

Exceptions to the rule: Stephen King (and even then it's a stretch).

And, yes, I just took a jab at someone.

[dmytryp]

Given Mister Jordan's health right now, I don't have incredible hopes for a next volume anyway. I haven't read the series past the second book, so I'm safe from tremendous disappointment. I still hope he doesn't die, though. He's a wonderful man.

I am with you on Jordan's health.
Actually, I think there were several weak volumes, but the last one picked up considerably.
He had a problem in first several volumes, the endings were too similar and then the action slowed down...

Does anybody have an idea what's going on with Martin's "Dancing with dragons"?