Need an agent, or don't need one -- A Warner Books Author tells all ...

[jeffrivera]

Sometimes I feel it's really sad when I read writers so desperate to get an agent, they think that if they get an agent all their dreams will come true. Well, let me know tell you I've had a good share of agents (both good and bad agents) finding a good one is worth the wait.

BUT FIRST to attract a good agent WRITE A GREAT NOVEL. Spend more energy making it the best it can be, I know it sounds cliche but it's so true. And I found when I focused on that then getting an agent was the easy part.

And contrary to popular belief editors at major houses WILL read your manuscript without an agent (takes them a lot longer to read it without an agent than with an agent though. My editor had my book for months but one call from my agent and she read it over the weekend and had an offer for me in less than 7 days).

I once put together a query campaign for an author and received over 30 responses from editors at major houses and she didn't even have an agent. She received another 20-30 responses from agents wanting to read her manuscript. You just have to know what to say in the query that's all.

Focus on writing the best damn first 50 pages (especially that first page cause they'll give it like 2-3 pages and if it doesn't hook them they're on to the next manuscript).

[Novelist in Paradise]

[quote=jeffrivera]You just have to know what to say in the query that's all.[quote]

And to climb Mount Everest you just have to put one foot in front of the other. That's all.

Said with a bit tongue in cheek.

Congrats.

[johnzakour]

Congrats on the novel but (I'm also saying this a bit tongue in cheek....) I am not sure you're exactly "telling all..."

I think most people here realize:

Agents aren't the end all to end all, but they do get you read faster. They also come in very handy when dealing with contracts.

Good query letters get you read.

Doesn't matter how good the query letter is if the first 50 pages aren't really great.

Now if you really want to "tell all" you need to explain:

What makes a good query letter and what makes a great 50 pages. (Which I believe has been discussed a lot on this board. Still it’s always great to have another opinion.)

[allenparker]

It is not just a good query, it is a great query that hooks the agent to read the book.

It's not just 50 good first pages. It's 50 great first pages that lead to fifty great pages that lead to 50 great pages that leads to the last 10 great pages that no one can put down.

It's not even 300 great pages. It's a story so compelling that the agent can't get the <insert your genre specific noun> humor out of her mind.

It's not even a compelling story that she can't forget. It's the perfect writing that compliments the story in such a way that the book flow directly from one scene to another, from one location to another, and from one PV to another seamlessly.

It's not even just all those things. It is everything there.

The heartache is that you could be the best of the lot and still not get a shot. Just because you are the best does not mean they will love it. It has tobe commercially viable.

BUT, a climb up Mt Everest begins with one step. AND, Mt Everest can be climbed.

[aruna]

Remember also that finding a publisher is not the only thing an agent does for you. There's a whole lot of things that come after that.

[Jamesaritchie]

And contrary to popular belief editors at major houses WILL read your manuscript without an agent

Well, some will, and some won't. The problem is that even those who will read manuscripts that do not come through an agent almost never actually buy such novels. I know one major publisher that has always read novels from unagented writers, but they've bought exactly one in the last twenty-five years.

[johnzakour]

The heartache is that you could be the best of the lot and still not get a shot. Just because you are the best does not mean they will love it. It has tobe commercially viable.

I truly believe that if the writing is the "best of the lot" then it will get a shot. Something that may not be commerical to one editor or agent may be quite commerical to another. Plus what's not commerical today may be tomorrow.

I think good writing will always sell.

[aruna]

I think good writing will always sell.

But when? I don't want to publish my next book at age 85. That's why I'm glad to have found an agent.

[jeffrivera]

Believe me having an great agent is awesome, but what I'm saying is to get publishers or editors to read a manuscript doesn't take them. Of course having one or a publishing attorney on your side when it's time for negotiations is very helpful.

I wouldn't say that writing a good query letter or getting an agent is as hard as Mt. Everest. I've never had a problem getting an agent, ever. Getting a GREAT agent, now that's a different story. Hahahaha

I highly recommend self-publishing as another route authors can do to get their foot in the door. I did it and I am so grateful I did because it worked.

[jeffrivera]

and yeah I'll definitely explain what makes a great query letter and what makes a great first 50 pages ... I guess I should create another forum for that right in a different catagory?

[miles]

I wouldn't say that writing a good query letter or getting an agent is as hard as Mt. Everest. I've never had a problem getting an agent, ever. Getting a GREAT agent, now that's a different story. Hahahaha

I highly recommend self-publishing as another route authors can do to get their foot in the door. I did it and I am so grateful I did because it worked.

So, what happened? You got an agent early off, then decided to self-publish? That doesn't make sense. I too got an agent fairly easily (one of the top) and agree that getting one is not too difficult with a great query and manuscript. But now that I have one, I certainly wouldn't self-publish.

Now that I know my writing is good enough attract professionals, if my book doesn't sell, I'll just keep improving, write better books, until one of them does. It's much easier to sell manuscripts as a successfully published writer (as long as the first couple do well), but often hard to break in with the first one. I know more than a couple authors whose first manuscripts didn't sell, even after getting an agent, but whose second and third did. Now their first is in print and doing well.

I understand self-publishing if one is unsuccessful in finding a good agent and really wants their work in print. But "never having a problem" getting an agent, and then choosing to self publish? What kind of agents are we talking about that you never had a problem getting? Barbara Bauer?

[Manderley]

and yeah I'll definitely explain what makes a great query letter and what makes a great first 50 pages ... I guess I should create another forum for that right in a different catagory?

Don't forget to familiarize yourself with this site first either. I might not have many posts to my name, but I have lurked around here long enough to know that you don't quite get the audience here.

[victoriastrauss]

And contrary to popular belief editors at major houses WILL read your manuscript without an agent (takes them a lot longer to read it without an agent than with an agent though. My editor had my book for months but one call from my agent and she read it over the weekend and had an offer for me in less than 7 days).Congragulations on your success, Jeff. But you're refuting your own point here. Yes, the editor agreed to read your ms. while you were unagented, but it took a call from an agent to actually get her to do so.

I'm not saying that imprints of big publishing houses never buy unagented novels--sometimes they do. But as James Ritchie pointed out, this is rare, and the vast majority of novels--including those by first-time writers--sell via agents. An agented manuscript--sometimes even when the agent is unknown to the publisher--will nearly always be given priority over an unagented one. Even if you get an editor to agree to read your unagented ms., there will probably be an agented author ahead of you.

- Victoria

[aadams73]

and yeah I'll definitely explain what makes a great query letter and what makes a great first 50 pages ... I guess I should create another forum for that right in a different catagory?

Hang around, get to know the crowd. Please don't assume that we are all unpublished or that you're the only one who knows who everything works.

Having said that, I'd like to hear what you have to say. Just don't forget your crowd knows quite a lot already(and a great many have knowledge that exceeds your own.)

[victoriastrauss]

and yeah I'll definitely explain what makes a great query letter and what makes a great first 50 pages ... I guess I should create another forum for that right in a different catagory?Jeff, do have a look around the forums here first. There are already many threads that address query letters and writing samples--perhaps you could contribute to those rather than starting new ones.

- Victoria

[Bufty]

Welcome, Jeff. Congratulations on your publication. Glad you know everything about everything, and it's kind of you to share it with us poor folks.

I am an extremely courteous person, I think, but do read between the lines, old chap.

[Doug Johnson]

How to market your book on the internet

http://www.spacejock.com.au/MarketingYourBookOnline.html




"Forget about pushing your book and your blog, please, and just join in."

[Sassenach]

Oh, was there a post attached to the giant promo?

Jeff, you might want to correct this typo on the front page of your site:

To get a sneak peak click here

[CrankItTo11]

Congrats on your forthcoming novel. I know you likely have absolutely no control over your cover, but... am I the only one freaked out by the seemingly distorted lower lip? I'm probably just looking at it funny - or maybe it didn't translate well as a jpg.

Best wishes to you. I hope you stick around the boards.

[PeeDee]

I don't think that I'd be quite so ready to suggest self-publishing to young authors who want a foot in the door with big publishing. Saying that you have put your novel out on the internet is not going to do much. Not unless you rack up some good sales figures to back you up, which is rare.

Anyway, why tell all, Jeff? I'm happy for your success, but really, wouldn't it be more enjoyable just to hang out and enjoy being with authors, some happily published and some not? I realize that you're being helpful, but I saw the "tells all" bit and found myself hoping there'd be a steamy sex scene or something when I opened the thread.

[Elektra]

And contrary to popular belief editors at major houses WILL read your manuscript without an agent

It's not "popular belief"--it's a fact stated right on most major publishers' websites.

[UrsusMinor]

It's not "popular belief"--it's a fact stated right on most major publishers' websites.

Actually, what most publishers say is something to the effect that they do not accept unrequested manuscipts. But if you manage to get an editor interested (a well-targeted query might do this), then they request your manuscript--and it's no longer unrequested, right?

A few do in fact state that they don't accept unagented (as opposed to unrequested) manuscripts. But at a conference I met an editor from a house that had such a statement up on their website, and, despite that statement she asked to see my (then unagented) manuscript. Editors have a lot of latitude.

So, what Jeff is saying here isn't untrue. But I am in agreement that getting into an editor's to-read pile unagented tends to leave you at low priority.

In addition, in the endless in-fighting and committee meetings that occur in most big houses as a book moves through the approval chain, the question of which agent represents your book will be raised as a point of credibility.

[James D. Macdonald]

It's comparatively easy to sell a first novel. It's easier still to sell a second novel.

What's hard is selling a third novel.

[UrsusMinor]

It's comparatively easy to sell a first novel. It's easier still to sell a second novel.

What's hard is selling a third novel.

Speaking as someone who just sold his first novel (I'm avoiding making final editing changes by messing around here on AW), I don't think I've ever heard such a Good News/Bad News bulletin.

Does it get easier again after #3?

[Julie Worth]

What's hard is selling a third novel.


I figure this is because the first book you sell is your third or fourth, while the next one is the second or third (revamped to satisfy a two book deal). But the second published book isn't as good, of course, so sales drop off. And already you're on a death spiral.

[UrsusMinor]

I figured it was because the first book you sold was number three or four, while the next one was two or three (you pulled them out to satisfy your two book deal). But the book wasn't as good, of course, so sales dropped off. And already you're on a death spiral.

Wow, it's just all kinds of cheery around here today, innit?

Is it the approach of Christmas, or what?

(Actually, Julie, that's horribly feasible logic.)

[Willowmound]

*note to self: when published, don't go join boards about which I know nothing, affecting air of pompous sagehood in hope I'll sell more; likely result: people will remember and go 'oh no, not this hack' when encountering my novel in-store*

[James D. Macdonald]

The way it works, more or less, is this:

Your first book comes out, and it sells what it sells.

Your second book comes out, and it too sells what it sells.

If the second book sells better than your first book, hurrah! Go, you! You get to publish a third book.

If your second book sells fewer copies than your first book ... the third book will be harder to sell than you might want it to be.

What they're looking for is a fan-base building up. Folks who've read and liked your first book will seek out your second book, and will tell their friends. Folks who've read and didn't like your first book won't buy your second book ... and will tell their friends.

[rugcat]

If your second book sells fewer copies than your first book ... the third book will be harder to sell than you might want it to be.
Which is why you have to be very careful with the two book deal. Usually, you've put a whole lot of time and energy into the first one, giving it your all. But the second? You've already sold it; you can let it slide just a bit. But as Uncle Jim points out, if you do, there's not likely to be a third. Or fourth or fifth, for that matter.

[James D. Macdonald]

That's part of it, but not all of it. The first book sells the second. If the first book isn't selling the second -- back to your desk and come up with a new "first book" that'll sell a second.

The sales of the second book aren't as dependent on how well-written the second book itself is, as how well your readers like the first book.

Not that you get to slack off at any time. A weak second book will hurt the third book.

Add in the Death Spiral and you can be in some real trouble.

On the positive side, if you already have the tools to make a professional-quality book, you can make a new one under a new name, and get a do-over.

[Judg]

am I the only one freaked out by the seemingly distorted lower lip? I'm probably just looking at it funny - or maybe it didn't translate well as a jpg.

No, you're not the only one. And if you look a bit, you can see the real line of her lower lip. It's a poor photoshopping job, camouflaged a bit by the curved lines of the hair.

It's probably a winner of a cover, because I heartily dislike it. I have a disconcerting habit of running counter to popular tastes, which is probably going to make it hard for me to write a bestseller... ;) And it probably means that Jeff's cover will actually inspire people to buy the book. There is a reason I don't work in marketing.

[jeffrivera]

What kind of agents are we talking about that you never had a problem getting?

Good question, well what I did was self-published the book first. I immediately got represented by a big agency (which will go nameless) I felt like hello ... hello ... anybody there? They represent a lot of A-List celebs that also write books and novels. But not getting the attention I wanted I decided I wanted I went without an agent for awhile and just kept selling my self-published book, then I decided I wanted to go all out and get picked up by a major publisher and I was able to get a nice boutique agency (Levine Greenberg) and a great agent there. Finally and about a week after signing with her she sent the self-published book out. I had already sent one to Warner Books (which sat around for a while) but one phone call from my agent and what would become my editor read it over the weekend and had an offer in less than a week.

I was shocked and I still am and I'm very grateful.

[Silver King]

Besides the lip, there's too much purple. And besides all that, there's a great deal of self-promotion going on in a number of threads hidden behind a veil of seemingly helpful posts designed to enlighten the rest of us.

Maybe Jeff will come clean and tell us why he joined AW. I can't imagine it would be to promote his book.

[jeffrivera]

Yes, the editor agreed to read your ms. while you were unagented, but it took a call from an agent to actually get her to do so. - Victoria

Hi Victoria, thanks for your comments. To clarify, yes, as I stated my point is that getting read by an editor or even a publisher at a publishing house is very easy and you don't need an agent. Yeah they'll read it, it may take awhile but they'll get to it. Yes, getting the editor to read it right away it definitely helps to have an agent or publishing attorney or even another author to refer.

But some people create road blocks and think just because they don't have an agent they can't get anywhere. That couldn't be further from the truth. -- Just offering some positive encouraging words here ... :D

[Realmike]

Hi - I find this forum helpful as I'm an emerging writer & like to hear different feedback and advice from established/experienced writers as to how the industry works... I'm interested in different writing including short fiction & scriptwriting. And as a writer looking for representation, I'd like to know what it takes to get that great agent eg. is it at least one feature script that is produced? Is it a certain number of published short fiction? And do the awards & prizes at writing competitions help to get that great agent? I mean is it worth the investment of one's time and money to enter these competitions?

[jeffrivera]

there's a great deal of self-promotion going on in a number of threads hidden behind a veil of seemingly helpful posts designed to enlighten the rest of us. Maybe Jeff will come clean and tell us why he joined AW. I can't imagine it would be to promote his book.

Hahhaha, it's funny when you try to help people how some people like to imagine interior motives that don't exist. But a healthy bit of skepticism never hurt anyone. I joined absolutewrite.com to talk with other writers and authors and hopefully to stand as a testament that (without sounding too cliche) dreams do come true and if anyone has any questions or needs advice feel free to ask me. Nothing more than that. Just giving back.

[jeffrivera]

Congrats on your forthcoming novel. I know you likely have absolutely no control over your cover, but... am I the only one freaked out by the seemingly distorted lower lip? I'm probably just looking at it funny - or maybe it didn't translate well as a jpg.

Best wishes to you. I hope you stick around the boards.

Absolutely Crank, I'd love to stick around. It's alwys nice to hear a positive voice . Thanks for the warm welcome.

[jeffrivera]

Hi - I find this forum helpful as I'm an emerging writer & like to hear different feedback and advice from established/experienced writers as to how the industry works... I'm interested in different writing including short fiction & scriptwriting. And as a writer looking for representation, I'd like to know what it takes to get that great agent eg. is it at least one feature script that is produced? Is it a certain number of published short fiction? And do the awards & prizes at writing competitions help to get that great agent? I mean is it worth the investment of one's time and money to enter these competitions?

Great question Mike, I can only tell you from my experience (and I'm sure the other writers will give you advice based on their experiences) I think screenwriting is a great way to break in. What I mean by that is that agents will definitely be interested in hearing you have training as a screenwriter. All those years of writing screenplay really helped me become a better writer. And the more I write the better I get. But I really think it goes back to the writing in my opinion writing pages that grab you from the first sentence if possible. Sounds vague, maybe even cliche but it's that simple. Then I think it's a numbers game, the more agents you query (or get referred by if you're fortunate enough) you'll end up with the right match eventually.

[jeffrivera]

Don't forget to familiarize yourself with this site first either. I might not have many posts to my name, but I have lurked around here long enough to know that you don't quite get the audience here.

Thanks for the tip Manderly, my posting is geared for the person that feels it fits. Like most postings it's not for everyone but I hope it helps someone out there. :D

[jeffrivera]

Welcome, Jeff. Congratulations on your publication. Glad you know everything about everything, and it's kind of you to share it with us poor folks. I am an extremely courteous person, I think, but do read between the lines, old chap.

Hahha, I wish I knew everything about everything but I'm still learning just like everyone else. Just like other people on this forum I'm happy to share whatever I know, be it little, or be it much. Thanks for the post. My grandma says I have relatives in Scotland so I hope that I can get over there and meet them.

[jeffrivera]

Oh, was there a post attached to the giant promo?

Jeff, you might want to correct this typo on the front page of your site:

To get a sneak peak click here

Thanks for the tip, I'll have to fix that. I'm hoping to revamp my site soon. You should have seen my self-published book it was full of typos and grammatical mistakes. I'm not a great writer but I do love story-telling and I think that's what people have responded to.

I guess I sort of broke all the rules, wrote a first draft full of mistakes, self-published, spammed to get an agent and still got published. Who figures? I guess there's no rules.

[jeffrivera]

So, what Jeff is saying here isn't untrue. But I am in agreement that getting into an editor's to-read pile unagented tends to leave you at low priority. In addition, in the endless in-fighting and committee meetings that occur in most big houses as a book moves through the approval chain, the question of which agent represents your book will be raised as a point of credibility.

That's so true, that's one thing I've learned from talking to a number of different people in the industry. I thought editors made the decisions about what is required but they have to then pitch it to a whole committee of people (from other editors, to the publisher, to the marketing dept, PR etc.) in order to make a decision to buy.

[aruna]

That's part of it, but not all of it. The first book sells the second. If the first book isn't selling the second -- back to your desk and come up with a new "first book" that'll sell a second.

The sales of the second book aren't as dependent on how well-written the second book itself is, as how well your readers like the first book.

Not that you get to slack off at any time. A weak second book will hurt the third book.

Add in the Death Spiral and you can be in some real trouble.

On the positive side, if you already have the tools to make a professional-quality book, you can make a new one under a new name, and get a do-over.

With me it was different. Everyone loved the first book. But the second and third books didn't live up to the first (that's a whole topic in itself!) and the publisher, who had first intended to build me over several books, stepped back and left them to sail or sink. They sank. Selling the fourth book proved impossible; it was a "rebel" book and just not marketable.

It's the fifth book, I sincerely hope, that will be my comeback. I'm telling this whole story on my blog. I hope others can learn from it. It's a good idea not to get too euphoric with the sale of the first book; unless that's all you want. I had to start all over again,and as Uncle Jim says, it is MUCH harder the second time around. And I discovered how much I had to learn. Coming to AW taught me the most.

[jeffrivera]

No, you're not the only one. And if you look a bit, you can see the real line of her lower lip. It's a poor photoshopping job, camouflaged a bit by the curved lines of the hair. It's probably a winner of a cover, because I heartily dislike it. I have a disconcerting habit of running counter to popular tastes, which is probably going to make it hard for me to write a bestseller... ;) And it probably means that Jeff's cover will actually inspire people to buy the book. There is a reason I don't work in marketing.

You're sweet. I hope it does well. Won't find out until the summer. But it's actually a painting not a photograph and the artist drew it as his dream girl in his fantasies similar to the fantasy my main character draws. We all have this picture in our mind of the perfect person but when reality hits it's not always the same as how we imagined. Know what I mean?

[johnzakour]

You might want to consider removing (or at the very least scaling down) the cover shot from your signature. It sort of gives the appearance that you're here more to promote than to share ideas.

Nothing wrong with a little promotion, but it can be done a bit more subtly.

[aruna]

You might want to consider removing (or at the very least scaling down) the cover shot from your signature. It sort of gives the appearance that you're here more to promote than to share ideas.

Nothing wrong with a little promotion, but it can be done a bit more subtly.

Yes, there's a Promotion thread for this. We can also put our books in the AW Library and put the link in our sig. That's what I did.

[jeffrivera]

Yes, there's a Promotion thread for this. We can also put our books in the AW Library and put the link in our sig. That's what I did.

thanks buddy, your novel looks interesting. God I love writing. There's lots of stuff I love to do but I could never give up writing. I'm always writing, even if it's in my head and not pen and pad.

[victoriastrauss]

Hi - I find this forum helpful as I'm an emerging writer & like to hear different feedback and advice from established/experienced writers as to how the industry works... I'm interested in different writing including short fiction & scriptwriting. And as a writer looking for representation, I'd like to know what it takes to get that great agent eg. is it at least one feature script that is produced? Is it a certain number of published short fiction? And do the awards & prizes at writing competitions help to get that great agent? I mean is it worth the investment of one's time and money to enter these competitions?Mike, welcome to AW. There are forums here to answer all your questions. Have a look around--I'm sure you can find the info you need. If not, please start threads with your questions--but try to do so in the appropriate forum. You'll be more likely to get helpful answers that way.

- Victoria

[Mark Lazer]

It sometimes appears that the only way to be considered by a publisher is to get an agent, who acts as a first filter of quality for publishers. And it's understandable - there's some awful, really bad writing out there. It's expensive for publishers to wade through in the hope of finding hidden gold.
The use of an agent introduces yet another hurdle between the author and the reader, which we find unfortunate and often unnecessary. Having an agent can mean that your slice of the earnings goes down even further, and the price to the reader goes up just a little. The more links in the supply chain, the greater the complexity and the greater the total cost.
Of course, agents can often be handy. If you're up against an unscrupulous publisher, a wily agent can watch out for the contractual traps and get you the best deal possible. If it were me, however, I'd just avoid the unscrupulous publishers.
Taken from the website of Snowbooks.

[jeffrivera]

Yeah I agree, I don't think that writers should be concerned about the 15-20% their agent might take. They're an excellent tool, but if for some reason you can't get an agent and don't want to work with a publishing attorney, you can still go for it and editors will read your manuscript. I remember I helped this one author on his query letter campaign and we had everyone from the president of major publishing houses to the cream of the crop agents requesting his book. And not just one or two at least 50 of them (agents, editors and publishers).

I guess in a nut shell the query should as they say "sell the sizzle not the stake".

[johnzakour]

I guess in a nut shell the query should as they say "sell the sizzle not the stake".

Well if it's a vampire story you might want to sell the stake also... ;-)

[jeffrivera]

hahah, I admire anyone who can write in that genre. I'm only good at emotional roller coasters, I don't think I could write a scary book. Is that what you write?

[stormie]

Just a thought, Jeff. It's great you're trying to help newbies or anyone who could use a few pointers. But when I clicked on your link, which ultimately brought me to the Amazon.com page to look inside your book, I saw that it was for the self-pubbed version. You're right: there are typos. (Double space after period, numbers not written out as words.... All on the first page.) That doesn't look good for the Warner Books version coming out in July of '07. Maybe take that particular link to Amazon down for now.

[Elektra]

I am also honestly confused about the choice of blurb on the front cover. It sounds like he's saying to run away from the book, which I suspect isn't the intention. And the lowest-rating-is-four-star thing makes me suspicious as well. I'll readily believe that the majority of people enjoyed the book, but everyone?

ETA: Wait, now I get it--Run If You Dare is the name of the blurber's book. Senior moment there...

[ChaosTitan]

That doesn't look good for the Warner Books version coming out in July of '07. Maybe take that particular link to Amazon down for now.

Good point, stormie. I had the same thought. I wonder, too, why Warner Books has not asked that the self-pubbed version be pulled as a new offering. I doubt they have control over used copies sold, but I can't imagine them allowing the book to be offered for sale much longer.

[aruna]

I am also confused - he says that the Warner Books cover is the same? I can hardly believe they'd use a cover from a self-pubbed book. Surely they;d make their own.

[J.S Greer]

It is not just a good query, it is a great query that hooks the agent to read the book.

It's not just 50 good first pages. It's 50 great first pages that lead to fifty great pages that lead to 50 great pages that leads to the last 10 great pages that no one can put down.

It's not even 300 great pages. It's a story so compelling that the agent can't get the <insert your genre specific noun> humor out of her mind.

It's not even a compelling story that she can't forget. It's the perfect writing that compliments the story in such a way that the book flow directly from one scene to another, from one location to another, and from one PV to another seamlessly.

It's not even just all those things. It is everything there.


Well said indeed.

A great start does nothing for you if the rest isnt as good.

[jeffrivera]

Hi, yeah that's the link to the self-published version, flaws and all. That's how it all began. In order to keep with my target audience and for the style to remain more raw I had the editor not over do the copy editing to appeal to the target market. And it's worked really well. I think one of my other novels is appealing more to a different market, my style including the copy editing is entirely different.

However, at the beginning of the new year Warner takes over, the new revamped (copy-edited version) will be out in July. But yeah, I was surprised they wanted to use the same cover too.

[jeffrivera]

ETA: Wait, now I get it--Run If You Dare is the name of the blurber's book. Senior moment there...

That's okay Elektra, G-d knows I've had my share of senior moments and I'm only 30. (I've had senior moments since I was a teenager, I guess it's all part of being creative, right?)

I don't think Warner's using the same quote on the cover though. We got a really nice one from Jennifer Lopez's company. My dream one would be from Nick Sparks. He's my favorite author.

[janetbellinger]

Actually, if you go to Warner books you will see Jeff's novel slated to be released in July 2007. I checked it too but I didn't give up with the Amazon link. I checked the Warner imprints, and Jeff's book is definitely going to be released. Jeff mentioned in another post that his book will no longer be available in the self-pubbed version after December, 2006. Believe me, I was sceptical too, but then when I heard his interviews with the agent and editor, I was really impressed with his professionalism as an interviewer and decided to dip deeper.

[jeffrivera]

That's really sweet of you Janet thank you. Deep inside I'm just a sensitive artist like everyone else. :D Thank you so much.

[stormie]

I don't think many were disputing what you, Jeff, said about Warner Books taking over; more the fact that it's unusual for you, Jeff, to have a link directly to the self-pubbed version, outstanding flaws and all. Wouldn't you rather not have that link under your sig on AW right now?

[jeffrivera]

I know what you're saying Stormie, but I'm not embarrassed by the flaws. I'm proud of them (sounds strange, doesn't it?) I'm proud because it's part of my progression as a writer to hopefully get better and better. I want a record of the first version because later on as my career hopefully progresses people who get a copy of the original self-published version will say, HE made it with this piece of crap? Hahhaah I can do better ... and it'll inspire them.

But yes, at the beginning of the year I'll have a link to the Warner version on Amazon.com.

[Stacia Kane]

In order to keep with my target audience and for the style to remain more raw I had the editor not over do the copy editing to appeal to the target market.


I'm sorry, Jeff, but this confuses me. Are you saying your target audience was people who enjoy books with misspellings and poor grammar?

I can't imagine what sort of reader doesn't deserve a properly copyedited book.

I truly don't mean any disrespect here, but I'd love if you would explain this to me--because it really sounds like you think your readers aren't smart enough to read proper books.

[jeffrivera]

Good question December, my audience definitely enjoys a properly copy-edited book just like everyone else. But, for example, there are letters in my book that are intentionally left with mispellings, words crossed out etc. because my characters are the same as most of my audience. It's sort of a raw way of writing. I think you'd have to read the book in order to know what I mean. There's a few people on the board that have read it and understand, it's all a matter of style. My style included mispelled words, bad grammar, etc.

It's an "out of the box" way of writing which helped separate me from the pack. I tried to do whatever I could to do something a little different ie: from the way I wrote it, to the way I promoted it, and hoped then the right company would understand what I was doing and hopefully pick it up. Thank God someone understood.

[Julie Worth]

My style included mispelled words, bad grammar, etc.

It's an "out of the box" way of writing which helped separate me from the pack.

It not out of the box, it's a cop-out.

[jeffrivera]

Maybe Julie, but it's a cop-out that worked.

I think it's a great idea for everyone to do what they think is best for their book. Only the writer knows. But I appreciate your honest opinion anyway.

[Jamesaritchie]

I highly recommend self-publishing as another route authors can do to get their foot in the door. I did it and I am so grateful I did because it worked.

I'm glad self-publilshing worked for you. It occasionally does, but it's not the best way to go, and it's the hardest way there is to get your foot in the door.

The numbers are pretty clear, and self-publishing lessens your odds greatly. For every self-published writer who gets his foot in the door, at least 10,000 fail top manage anything otehr than wasting several years that could have been put to better use. Your odds are at least 100 times better by going the traditional route and not self-publishing.

If there's one bit of advice I could give someone having their first novel published, it would be not to get complacent, and to never, ever think for a second that you've "made it."

Getting published isn't easy, but it's a cakewalk compared to staying published. Staying published really is the hard part. To stay published, you have to write book after book that sells pretty darned well. Staying published depends solely on the profit you generate for the publisher, and this is tough.

A big chunk of published writers get dropped every year, never to be heard from again because when your books do not sell well enough, do not generate enough profit, trying to find another publisher willing to give you a chance is a heck of a lot harder than trying to find that first publisher ever was.

[Jamesaritchie]

Maybe Julie, but it's a cop-out that worked.

I think it's a great idea for everyone to do what they think is best for their book. Only the writer knows. But I appreciate your honest opinion anyway.

I suspect you succeeded despite the misspelled words and poor grammar, not because of it. And the writer never, ever knows. Only the eventual readers know. There the ones who will pass final judgement. Misspellings and poor grammar can work well, when done intentionally, and for a good reason. Otherwise, they're only bad writing.

And if they're ones you expect an editor to correct, they're just dumb, whether they work or not.

[Mike Coombes]

Getting published isn't easy, but it's a cakewalk compared to staying published.

So true. A friend, on publication of her first novel, was brought down to earth by her agent who reminded her that if she expected to make a living from writing, she'd have to write a book at least as good and preferably better than the first every year, year in, year out, for the rest of her life.

[jeffrivera]

Mike I love your frog avantar, I love frogs. I live in Miami and they always happen to somehow get into the house. I even found on in my toilet one time. I think it's swam up the pipes because I went out of town for like 3 weeks and the toilet seat was down the whole time. Scared the bujesus out of me. Hahaha.

[Jaws]

I'm always amused when people try to extend their personal experiences to a universal "law of nature" (or of publishing, which is pretty unnatural). This time around, it's "I self-published and didn't have an agent, so the claim that one shouldn't self-publish and needs an agent is invalid."

Statistically, a 16-year-old basketball phenom has a better chance of making millions in the NBA than does an unrepresented, previously unpublished author with a self-published novel. Sure, it happens; so does winning the lottery. And that is precisely what one is doing by going the self-published-then-no-agent route... with somewhat worse odds. In short, it's a stupid business plan, and publishing is a business. An irrational, poorly managed, trend-following, imitative business, but nonetheless a business.

[johnzakour]

My first novel started out as an interactive story on the Sci Fi Channel's web site. Then it when to an e-book. This attracted a NY publisher (Daw) who turned it into a physical book after some editing, additions and improvements.

The second the release date of the physical book was announced my agent asked that all older copies be removed from web sites that were housing them.

After all, why have an old inferior copy around when there's a new and improved copy soon to be available?

(I'm still proud of the original, hecks it's spawned 7 other books, but no need for the world to see it.)

[jeffrivera]

For those that are appauled that a link to a self-published version is still on the site, don't worry ... in a few more weeks Warner takes over and a link to the new version will be there.

Congrats on your success John, I think you are an inspiration for people who may have had difficulty in trying a traditional route. I love hearing about people like you cause I think it might help open some people's hearts to another route they can take. Self-Publishing is definitely not the universal law but it is one way people can make it, but so is the traditional route.

Thank God the publishing industry doesn't have as much of a bad taste in their mouth about self-publishing as some people do, otherwise some people never would have made it.

There's an interview I think in the Book Promotion section from an editor at Warner that talks specifically about her opinion on self-publishing.

[johnzakour]

Note, my novel was never self-published, the sci fi channel paid me for my story. The e-book publisher paid me for my story. Daw paid me for the story.

[jeffrivera]

Oh, excuse me John. But what a great alternative route you went. There's so many ways "in". It's nice to know you succeeded out of the box.

[J. Weiland]

I'm sure this isn't the real Jeff Rivera. In my opinion, you simply act too strange to be real, or for real.

[LloydBrown]

I'm sure this isn't the real Jeff Rivera. In my opinion, you simply act too strange to be real, or for real.

Great mugato avatar, J.

[jeffrivera]

Hahhaa. You're funny J. Weiland. I don't think I act any stranger than the rest of us nutty-writers in the world.

[aruna]

I
Getting published isn't easy, but it's a cakewalk compared to staying published. Staying published really is the hard part. To stay published, you have to write book after book that sells pretty darned well. Staying published depends solely on the profit you generate for the publisher, and this is tough.

.

I second, third and fourth that. That's why it'd better to rein in the euphoria and self-congratulations until one has a growing readership with the fourth or fifth book.

[victoriastrauss]

Getting published isn't easy, but it's a cakewalk compared to staying published. Staying published really is the hard part.Amen. And even if you're doing well, it's not a good idea to take anything for granted.

- Victoria

[Jamesaritchie]

Amen. And even if you're doing well, it's not a good idea to take anything for granted.

- Victoria

That's for sure. I made the mistake of taking something for granted a few years back. It can bite you fast. I won't make the same mistake again.

[maestrowork]

I've always said: There are many paths to success; and I stand by that. I think new writers do get sucked into certain myths (such as, all you need is an agent, etc.) but if you ask a hundred published authors, you will probably get at least 20 different answers.

I also agree with James (yikes, that's twice today) and Sharon that getting published is not easy, but having a CAREER as a novelist is even harder. Even someone as accomplished as Michael Chabon says making a living as a novelist can be a struggle. I am a relative newbie in the publishing business, so I'm holding my breath until my fourth or fifth book is out (maybe when I'm 64?).

[Christine N.]

Agreed. Whether you have an agent or not, whether you publish or not writing well is hard work. Hard work that you love - or else why do it (as far as fiction, anyway)- but hard work.

Learning, learning, always learning, is, IMO, the key to longevity in this business. Learning and improving.

[jeffrivera]

what beautiful covers Maestro, I want to check out your OFFSPRING book.

[Christine N.]

LOL. OFFSPRING is not Ray's. Ray's PACIFIC BETWEEN certainly does have a beautiful cover. OFFSPRING is by Liam Jackson, who also hangs out here quite a bit.

Man, and it seems like yesterday Liam was signing his deal. Our little writers are growing up so fast!

[Jamesaritchie]

For those that are appauled that a link to a self-published version is still on the site, don't worry ... in a few more weeks Warner takes over and a link to the new version will be there.

Congrats on your success John, I think you are an inspiration for people who may have had difficulty in trying a traditional route. I love hearing about people like you cause I think it might help open some people's hearts to another route they can take. Self-Publishing is definitely not the universal law but it is one way people can make it, but so is the traditional route.

Thank God the publishing industry doesn't have as much of a bad taste in their mouth about self-publishing as some people do, otherwise some people never would have made it.

There's an interview I think in the Book Promotion section from an editor at Warner that talks specifically about her opinion on self-publishing.

On the contray, the publishing idustry does have a bad taste in its mouth where self-publishing is concerned.

I think you also had an advantage in being able to write a good Uban Latino novel. Not many can do this. You obviously wrote a novel many wanted, and with this being the case, the fact that it was self-published is irrelevant, and was probably unnecessary.

There's really only one way to break into commercial publishing, and this is to write a book that make a publisher see dollar signs. If you can do this, you don't need to self-publish, and if you can't do it, self-publishng won;t help.

A Warner editor's opinion of self-pubishing has about as much validity in the overall industry as does that of a new writer.

As an editor, for every self-published novel you find that may stand a chance of making a profit if you release it commercially, you find hundreds, maybe thousands, that make you wish you'd never learned to read. There are so many horrid ones in comparison to the tiny few good ones, that commercial publishers look at self-published novels wearing dark glasses and rubber gloves. It's a huge relief when you do find one that shows promise, but it's also so incredibly rare that zero effort is put into the search.

The writer of a self-published novel has to make a lot of waves all on his own, meaning putting up some pretty good sales numbers, to get the attention of a commercial publisher, which is what I assume you did, because the publisher is not holding his breath waiting for a good self-published novel to come along, and is certainly not expecting to ever find one, or to put a dime of money or a second of time into the search.

[maestrowork]

what beautiful covers Maestro, I want to check out your OFFSPRING book.

Hey, if that sig line got you to buy Liam's book, I'd be so happy. Now, if you would be kind enough to get mine, too, I'd be in hog heaven. ;) At any rate, I need to insert a semi-colon somewhere; here it goes.

[jeffrivera]

Agree or disagree, I like your vibe JamesRitchie, you remind me of a wise uncle or father or something.

I'll defnitely check out YOUR book Maestro, no prob.

[stormie]

For those that are appauled that a link to a self-published version is still on the site, don't worry ... in a few more weeks Warner takes over and a link to the new version will be there.
Jeff, no one is appalled that a link to a self-pubbed version is still on the site, just wondering, actually. And the link I was talking about is here, under your sig. Why not skip the link here and just say that your book (with the title) will be out in July '07 by Warner Books? Forget the link all together. You want readers to want to read your book, without all the mistakes, right? Most people, if not all, would put the book down after reading the first page of your self-pubbed book, no matter how intriguing the premise is.

[badducky]

Here's a useful link from katiemac's stickied forum index. A useful place for anyone to begin looking for the word on this particular street about such matters.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=657731&postcount=15