The truth about the New York Times List

[jeffrivera]

The truth about the NY Times List according to someone high-up on the publishing pole is that the list is based on what a select group of stores has bought (notice I didn't say sold) so in other words if the local Barnes and Noble in New York City is one of the stores that reports to the NY Times buys a bunch of copies in order to sell a bunch to their customers and the rest of the stores that report to the NY Times do the same then it will hit the list. It doesn't matter how many copies the customers actually buy.

Also, one store could literarily buy or sell 1 million copies and you could still not hit the list if their store isn't one of the stores that the NY Times depends on to report to them.

One person even said that it's not a computerized system it's all done by hand. Hmmm ... makes you wonder.

Nevertheless I still want to hit the list! Hahhaa.

[greatfish]

That doesn't sound too surprising or startling. It seems unlikely that bookstores would buy enough copies of a book to get it on the Bestseller list if they didn't expect them to sell well. I'd be interested to see if you could actually find an instance of a book completely bombing after it had already been added to the bestseller list.

[Jamesaritchie]

It's really a LOT more complicated than the high on the publishing pole person claims. There's no secret about how it works, no mystery about it, and you can find the details on many websites.

The system isn't 100% accurate, but over the long run, it's pretty close, and no one has come up with a better system.

I'm not going into the system in detail, but it does, indeed, matter how many copies customers buy, but it also depends on where and when they buy them. How many copies certain bookstores and outlets order is only the starting point, and it's a guarantee that any book landing high on the bestseller list is going to have a minimum number of actual sales.

It's also a guarantee that if you book sells enough copies in the right time span, it WILL land on the bestseller list. Surprise, word of mouth tiles land on the bestseller list, and even reach the top, with considerable regularity.

[Euan H.]

It's also a guarantee that if you book sells enough copies in the right time span, it WILL land on the bestseller list.
I think that might better be phrased as:

If your book sells enough copies in the right time span, it WILL land on *a* bestseller list.

Just maybe not the NYT.

[James D. Macdonald]

The truth about the NYT list is that it's a list. The truth about the USA Today list is that it's a list. Same with the LA Times list. Or any other list.

They're lists.

[Cathy C]

The truth about the NY Times List according to someone high-up on the publishing pole is that the list is based on what a select group of stores has bought (notice I didn't say sold) so in other words if the local Barnes and Noble in New York City is one of the stores that reports to the NY Times buys a bunch of copies in order to sell a bunch to their customers and the rest of the stores that report to the NY Times do the same then it will hit the list. It doesn't matter how many copies the customers actually buy.

Also, one store could literarily buy or sell 1 million copies and you could still not hit the list if their store isn't one of the stores that the NY Times depends on to report to them.

One person even said that it's not a computerized system it's all done by hand. Hmmm ... makes you wonder.

Nevertheless I still want to hit the list! Hahhaa.

Actually, this is close to correct, but not entirely. Here's how it works:

A select number of stores (and the actual stores selected are like the Nielsen television lists--they're pretty secret so people can't skew the numbers) are provided a printed list of recent book titles. This is the "tracking" list. Now, bookstore managers CAN hand write in titles if they're a sleeper hit, but mostly the titles on the list are the ones that are being watched. Usually, to make the printed list means that the author usually has previous good "point of sale" or cash register rings. Making the USA Today list, which is a point of sale list, is one way to make the NYTimes tracking list. Authors and editors are usually VERY excited to learn that their titles are being tracked, since it's the first step to making the list.

Now, once the tracking list has been sent to the stores, then begins the equivalent of a popularity contest. The employees at the selected stores are instructed to listen to what the customers are TALKING about. This starts months before the book hits the shelf, which is often why you'll see something like Harry Potter hitting the NYTimes list months before the actual release. Yes, sales from the publisher to the bookstore are somewhat involved, because the book buyers for the chains tend to listen to the buzz from the public. The more buzz about a title, the more copies they order so there are plenty available on opening day. The actual sales really aren't necessary for the book to make the list. Other than those with a national platform, or a built-in audience for an already best selling author, the books that make the NYTimes main list (positions 1-10) and the extended list (positions 11-35, called "Also Selling Well" in the paper) usually make the list the week AFTER opening week, because that's when the customers begin to talk about it, ask for it and otherwise say the name out loud.

Like Jamesaritchie says, it's not perfect, but nobody's come up with a better system so far. And, it's still the epitome of recognition to the public. Readers are more likely to pick up a title by a NYTimes ranked author when casual buying.

We discovered after our August release that our titles are now being tracked, so I decided to find out more about how it worked. :D

[Jamesaritchie]

I think that might better be phrased as:

If your book sells enough copies in the right time span, it WILL land on *a* bestseller list.

Just maybe not the NYT.

No, if it sells enough copies in the right time span, it will land on the New York Time's list, it just won't get there as son as a book by an establish writer. Novels get on teh NYT list in several ways, and good sales in the right span of time is one of them. Despite how the list is set up to work on a day in and day out basis, it is a flexible list, and allows for the unexpected book to not only get on the list, but to quickly rise to number one. But it takes a LOT of actual sales to reach the number the NYT list demands.

Pre-release sales to actual customers are also now a big part of the picture, and help determine how many copies bookstores will actually order, which determines where teh book will debut on the list.

The NYT list is just a list, but it's a damned important list, and it tells a real, and pretty darned accurate, story about a given book and writer.

[Arkie]

Several years ago, before I was that interested in bestseller listings, I read a newspaper article about an author who was determined to make the NYT bestseller list and he did. He discovered the store locations from which the NYT survey was made. He arranged with friends and relatives across the country to buy 10 copies of his book at target stores in their area, and he bought a plane ticket and traveled to selected target stores across the country and bought 10 copies at each store he visited. His expenditure on the project was several thousand dollars. I've forgotten the amount, but $20,000 rings a bell. I think he was on the list for a week and then disappeared. I had never heard of the fellow before or since.

I believe one of the best gauges of what is selling across country is the Barnes and Noble Web Site found on www.bn.com (http://www.bn.com). You can find the best sellers from the previous year and I believe the previous week.

[UrsusMinor]

There's plenty of cases of people trying to fiddle the bestseller list. Google [manipulate "bestseller list"] or, to get tighter [manipulate "Times bestseller list"].

As jamesaritchie says, timing matters a great deal. Books whose sales are rather modest can make an appearance on the list if they have fairly concentrated sales in what is otherwise a slow sales week.

[Euan H.]

No, if it sells enough copies in the right time span, it will land on the New York Time's list,

Yes, sales from the publisher to the bookstore are somewhat involved

I'd also point out that the NY Times is not above changing the structure of the lists to push out books that they don't think belong there (http://archive.salon.com/mwt/feature/2000/08/16/bestseller/index.html).

[PeeDee]

Not to be rude, but really I have no idea what I was doing with my life before I had all these truths coming around and shining light in. Really, Jeff, just chat with us. You don't have to reveal the truth and secrets behind the publishing industry, because mostly, there aren't any. It's like revealing the secret behind where a writer gets his ideas. Mostly, it's that he makes them up, out of his head.

[jeffrivera]

Not to be rude, but really I have no idea what I was doing with my life before I had all these truths coming around and shining light in. Really, Jeff, just chat with us. You don't have to reveal the truth and secrets behind the publishing industry, because mostly, there aren't any. It's like revealing the secret behind where a writer gets his ideas. Mostly, it's that he makes them up, out of his head.

Hahhaha. You're funny, I like you and I love that picture in your avantar it's creepy ... It looks really good.

[Shadow_Ferret]

...according to someone high-up on the publishing pole...

I'm always suspicious of any information that comes by way of "someone high-up."

[Cathy C]

I don't really like the snarky tone here. MANY authors--even a number of multi-published ones I know, didn't realize that the NY Times list isn't based on actual sales before I told them. I can't tell you how many times I've corrected people who presume it's just like the USA Today list (which IS based on actual sales.) Why is this considered a "pedestal" thread when a newbie starts it? Ease off, guys. You're bordering on "respect" issues.

[johnzakour]

The truth about the NY Times List according to someone high-up on the publishing pole is that the list is based on what a select group of stores has bought (notice I didn't say sold) so in other words if the local Barnes and Noble in New York City is one of the stores that reports to the NY Times buys a bunch of copies in order to sell a bunch to their customers and the rest of the stores that report to the NY Times do the same then it will hit the list. It doesn't matter how many copies the customers actually buy.


Locus magazine does sort of the same thing with the SF best seller list. They tell you up front (well down bottom) the stores they poll.

http://www.locusmag.com/2006/Issues/03LocusBestsellers.html

[jeffrivera]

I don't really like the snarky tone here.Why is this considered a "pedestal" thread when a newbie starts it? Ease off, guys. You're bordering on "respect" issues.

Thank you Cathy, I'm glad I'm not the only one that was sensing that. You're sweet.

:) Jeff

[Celia Cyanide]

I can't tell you how many times I've corrected people who presume it's just like the USA Today list (which IS based on actual sales.)

This is interesting. Why is the New York Times Bestseller list so prestigeous? It seems the could base the list on sales if they wanted to. It is possible if USA Today can do it.

[jeffrivera]

This is interesting. Why is the New York Times Bestseller list so prestigeous? It seems the could base the list on sales if they wanted to. It is possible if USA Today can do it.

Yeah, Cathy please tell us more about the USA Today list and the differences with NY Times List. That sounds intriguing.

[Elektra]

I don't really like the snarky tone here. MANY authors--even a number of multi-published ones I know, didn't realize that the NY Times list isn't based on actual sales before I told them. I can't tell you how many times I've corrected people who presume it's just like the USA Today list (which IS based on actual sales.) Why is this considered a "pedestal" thread when a newbie starts it? Ease off, guys. You're bordering on "respect" issues.

I think because the newbie has started several threads, which each have a patronizing "I, the king of publishing, am going to grant time to ye minions; praise me now" sort of tone. Oh, and they seem very much like excuses for advertising his own book.

ETA: Thank you, though, for downsizing your book cover.

[jeffrivera]

I think because the newbie has started several threads, which each have a patronizing "I, the king of publishing, am going to grant time to ye minions; praise me now" sort of tone. Oh, and they seem very much like excuses for advertising his own book.

I'm sorry you feel that way. As they say, "No good deed goes unpunished."

Sometimes when we feel insecure we perceive the world as if victims like someone's putting us down all the time, as if they think they're better than us. But in reality, I'm glad I'm on this forum and think of myself as a peer who wants to contribute what I've learned so far, and I'm anxious to hear what other people have learned especially those who have been in the biz for much longer than me. Blessings. :) Jeff

[Elektra]

I'm sorry you feel that way. As they say, "No good deed goes unpunished."

Sometimes when we feel insecure we perceive the world as if victims like someone's putting us down all the time, as if they think they're better than us.


What? There are many people I feel inferior to (the Pope comes to mind, as do many of the wonderful people at this site), but let me assure you, you are not one of them. If you read the vast majority of responses to your posts (and I find it odd that you only wish to share your inimitable wisdom in threads you created yourself), you'll see that almost everyone has picked up on your superior tone.

[jeffrivera]

I wouldn't go as far as to say everyone. But I appreciate your opinion. It seems I might have struck a chord there with you or something.

I don't feel for a moment that I'm better than anyone else on this forum sweetheart, like I said just want to share what I've learned and I'm anxious to hear what others have to contribute. I don't for a second think I'm better than you or that somehow you should feel inferior to me. I'm sure like a lot of people on this forum I could learn a lot from you. I'm sorry if you don't choose to see it that way. But I wish you the best nevertheless.

Blessings,
:) Jeff

[Elektra]

Arg! I give up!

Everyone else, please forgive me. I shouldn't have let my temper get the better of me.

I believe we were speaking of the differences between the NYT list and USA Today...

[JennaGlatzer]

Jeff, I believe you and think you sound like a nice guy. But what you're hearing from several people here is valuable advice, I think. If you want to build your audience, it's not a great idea to turn people off by making them feel patronized. When you come in here and make multiple threads touting your status as a "Warner Books Author" and with giant book covers in each post and with questionable advice about the industry based on your one sale... well, it comes across as know-it-all bragging. And calling people "sweetheart" and "buddy" before you know them can sound very patronizing, even if you mean it well. Then to compound it by saying it must be because we're insecure... well, no.

What some of the others were trying to explain is that this is a different crowd than most writers' boards you're likely to come across. There are many published authors here (along with some editors, a publishing lawyer, etc.). Many of us have multiple books to our name. I understand that you think self-publishing is a great idea based on your one experience, but advice like that can be dangerous, too-- most people who self-pub do NOT get commercial publishing deals, do not get bookstore distribution, sell 75 copies on average, and wind up very disappointed by the experience. (I can say this because I've chatted with literally thousands of self-published writers over the past 7 years.) So I cringe when someone comes along and says, "Hey! Self-publishing is the way!" It usually isn't. Publishers are normally happier to buy first rights to a book, meaning that it's never been in print before, rather than buying rights to something that's already been published.

So I think it's great that you share your experiences-- I think coming along and telling people that, hey, it IS possible and this is how you did it, is very cool and even inspiring. But to try to translate that into the The Truth About The Publishing Industry doesn't work. See the difference?

[Celia Cyanide]

I think because the newbie has started several threads, which each have a patronizing "I, the king of publishing, am going to grant time to ye minions; praise me now" sort of tone.

I don't find this one to be like that. It's just about the New York Times list. And you may find the tone patronizing, but it's not as if he's the only one who ever seemed a little patronizing here. I'm not trying to argue, but I do think Cathy is right, and newbies do tend to get treated differently. Remarks about insecurity and nicknames might be inappropriate, but perhaps the OP feels attacked. I have seen worse from veterans of the board.

[rugcat]

When you come in here and make multiple threads touting your status as a "Warner Books Author" and with giant book covers in each post and with questionable advice about the industry based on your one sale... well, it comes across as know-it-all bragging. And calling people "sweetheart" and "buddy" before you know them can sound very patronizing, even if you mean it well.
Jenna, as exhibited in the rest of your post, and as always, you are polite and reasonable.

But when a new person arrives and throws 60-70 posts in two days, sometimes one after another in the same thread, in a loud and boisterous manner touting his own ability, it’s not unreasonable for regulars to take exception. This is the cyber equivalent of a stranger walking into a party, and before even being introduced, to immediately start to slap people on the butt and call them “babe.” It is, among other things, unmannerly. A little restraint would go a long way.

As to the validity of his opinions, that, as always, is up to the reader to decide.

Perhaps you could break off a separate thread devoted exclusivly to his opinions and accomplishments.

[Christine N.]

Thank you. I was hoping it wasn't just me that was getting that vibe off of Jeff.

You're new here, so I'll cut you some slack, Jeff. You really do seem like a nice guy, and it seems you are really excited about the way your career is going and want to share with the world. Which is fine and all, but lots of people on this board have been in this game for quite a while, in various capacities. Some of us come here to learn, some to ask advice, some to commiserate.

We're a community.

Cathy, I agree, we should respect fellow writers. I also believe respect is earned. So far Jeff hasn't earned much from me. I'll give him some time to get his bearings though.

[Celia Cyanide]

But when a new person arrives and throws 60-70 posts in two days, sometimes one after another in the same thread, in a loud and boisterous manner touting his own ability, it’s not unreasonable for regulars to take exception.

I don't understand why this should even be an issue of newbie vs. the regulars. If you don't like someone's tone, that's understandable.
But I don't believe that people should be held to different standards based on how many posts they've made, or how many days they have been here.

I don't mean to complain or start an argument. Just something to think about. When a newbie says something you think is stupid or arrogant, would you react the same way if it were a regular poster?

[PeeDee]

If it were consistent stupidity and arrogance, I would absolutely say something. I suspect quite a lot of people would. Generally, one does not become a regular without being fairly on-the-level. I seem to recall that we've had some fights spread across the boards just because a local and a regular said something foolish that someone else didn't like and was willing to say so.

Jeff, I think you should hang around here for certain. I just think that you should relax while you're doing it. Think of this place less as a writerly convention-with-talks and more as an after-convention bar-with-writers.

[Christine N.]

It's about arriving at a place and acting like you know everything and that your all-knowing person will save everyone's career.

Which is how he's coming off. I mean, James Ritchie comes off like that all the time, but I expect it of him. :D He's been here long enough to establish a presence.

Jeff's post leave me feeling like I'm at an Amway meeting. I'm sure that's not how he intends them, but that's how he's coming off.

[rugcat]

I don't understand why this should even be an issue of newbie vs. the regulars. If you don't like someone's tone, that's understandable.
But I don't believe that people should be held to different standards based on how many posts they've made, or how many days they have been here.
You have a point, and in the past I have myself chided certain regulars who I felt treated the opinions of newbies harshly simply because they were new.

But I'm not talking about opinions here. I'm not even really talking about tone, although I admit I find it smug and patronizing. I'm talking about, for lack of a stronger word, etiquette. Every community has a set of mostly unstated ground rules and conventions, and for the most part, people adhere to them. Most newcomers will tread lightly until they become familiar with the particular culture they’re interacting with.

If a regular started posting a barrage of similar posts, I’d certainly wonder what was wrong with them. But when a new person does this, ignoring the early gentle hints of inappropriate behavior from people who have earned respect, it’s even more galling and is bound to raise some hackles.

As always, I could be wrong, but this time I don’t think so.

[Toothpaste]

I think also part of the 'problem' (because I think we can all agree that Jeff seems rather pleasant and all), is that he is only starting and responding to his own threads, and not participating in other conversations. Like he is only interested in what he has to share, but not in what others in turn want to tell. I don't think this is true, as he is very receptive within his threads, but I think that's the impression it might give off.

[LloydBrown]

I can't help but be reminded of a certain PA alumna who advocated joining message boards and promoting your books relentlessly, despite being told that it was inappropriate and despite threats of banning.

[JennaGlatzer]

I'm not disagreeing with anyone. I think that Jeff didn't get off to the best start here and probably should have spent a little more time getting to know the audience here before jumping in with what seems like a lot of self-promo and questionable advice.

However, I'm going to ask that we all give him another shot now that he's heard the reactions from the community. As evidenced by his interviews and other posts, I think Jeff is earnestly trying to share here and has just let his enthusiasm run away with him. So let's step back, get back to the topic at hand, and try for a clean slate with the newly re-welcomed Jeff. :D

So about that New York Times list...

[johnzakour]

Jeff, welcome aboard. I can't help asking are you any relation to Dr. Nick Rivera of Simpsons fame? ;-)

[Elektra]

However, I'm going to ask that we all give him another shot now that he's heard the reactions from the community.

Aye aye (as long as he doesn't call me sweetheart ever again).

[aadams73]

So about that New York Times list...

All I know about the NYT list is that I want to be on it. Preferably one of the single digit numbers. :D

[J. Weiland]

I can't help but be reminded of a certain PA alumna who advocated joining message boards and promoting your books relentlessly, despite being told that it was inappropriate and despite threats of banning.

Who wants to buy a book from a person he or she finds to be arrogant and condescending?

[jeffrivera]

Hi guys, sorry I took so long to post a reply I just got home and it's about 7am here in Miami.

I'm sorry if I bruised a few egos by posting my thread. If you have a moment take another look at the original posting, you'll find it's simply just a guy posting info about how to create 3 D characters or what I learned about the NY Times List. Nothing more, nothing less. There's nothing arrogant, or rude in the posting at all.

Perhaps some were thinking, "How dare this ... this "newbie" tell ME how to create 3 D characters. Who is HE to tell ME how he does this or that. I've been writing longer than he's been born!"

And perhaps that's true. As some people have stated in this thread, I'm very receptive to learning, and participating. Never have I said or intimated that I'm better than anyone else or think of myself anything more than a peer. Take another look at the original posting and I think you'll realize that.

There's a wonderful friend of mine about 70+ years old, he works in the film industry and has produced many wonderful movies. One thing I admire about him, besides his success, is that no matter how old he is, no matter how much success he's achieved, he loves still learning and interacting with people much younger and much inexperienced than him. He never allows his ego to get in the way of that. That's a lesson I would love to continue to remember as I get older.

Now, if for some reason I bruised some more egos by this posting, then I apologize. We'll probably look back at this original posting about a year from now (when I'm still around) and laugh and you'll realize, "Hey he was just a guy that was participating. Nothing more, nothing less."

[jeffrivera]

Jeff, welcome aboard. I can't help asking are you any relation to Dr. Nick Rivera of Simpsons fame? ;-)

Hey John, good question. Most people ask if I'm related to "Geraldo Rivera" Hahahaa. But no, no relation to Dr. Nick Rivera.

[J. Weiland]

There's a wonderful friend of mine about 70+ years old, he works in the film industry and has produced many wonderful movies. One thing I admire about him, besides his success, is that no matter how old he is, no matter how much success he's achieved, he loves still learning and interacting with people much younger and much inexperienced than him. He never allows his ego to get in the way of that. That's a lesson I would love to continue to remember as I get older



Not only should you remember the lesson, Jeff. You should follow its example.

[aruna]

Hi guys, sorry I took so long to post a reply I just got home and it's about 7am here in Miami.

I'm sorry if I bruised a few egos by posting my thread. .....

Now, if for some reason I bruised some more egos by this posting, then I apologize. We'll probably look back at this original posting about a year from now (when I'm still around) and laugh and you'll realize, "Hey he was just a guy that was participating. Nothing more, nothing less."

Jeff, why do you think that "bruised egos" is the reason for the reastion you got? Perhaps, maybe, what if, your entrance here was just a bit over the top?
You are welcome here and welcome to share your experience, but I do feel that there was a certain clumsiness to your entrance.
No matter, we can all move on, but I think your apology is a bit, like "I did nothing wrong but everyone here is touchy".
Just saying.

[johnzakour]

Hey John, good question. Most people ask if I'm related to "Geraldo Rivera" Hahahaa. But no, no relation to Dr. Nick Rivera.

Heck, I rather be related to Dr. Nick....

[Gigi Sahi]

Hello Jeff,

I've been reading your posts, and I have to say despite the way you've come across in some posts, intentionally or innocently, that I'm happy to see you here. You write Urban/Hip Hop Fiction (as I do) and I've known about Forever My Lady for about a year. I've even read it and would highly recommend it, as it is one of the best UF/HHF novels I've yet to read. I even made mention of it as such on another thread a couple of months ago.

Congratulations on your deal with Warner. While I'm aware that your story is the exception, (self-publishing leading to commerical deal with major publisher), I still think it's quite inspirational. I wish you the best.

While I believe your publishing experiences, thus far, are both valid and potentially helpful, I think you'll also find that the AW forum offers a wealth of information and expertise that can greatly be to your benefit.

Nice to see you onboard.

[janetbellinger]

I don't think Jeff is bragging. I just think he sincerely wants to share information. If people aren't interested, they don't have to read what he has to say or listen to the interviews. I for one am interested in hearing success stories of published authors, because I can learn from them. I don't think Jeff is saying that he knows it all. He's just sharing his good fortune with us.

[NeuroFizz]

I can only aspire to achieve the toplofty accomplishment you’ve gained, and I for one salute the wonderfully supercilious information you’ve provided. My problem is I tend to overwrite and understate at the same time. But some day…

I think your credential has fully established you as a bumptiously competent writer, and one who takes a contumelious interest in those who are just learning to write. For any egos you may have bruised, perhaps a SpongeBob band-aid would be useful. Maybe the one with Patrick on it.

[Christine N.]

My ego wasn't bruised, Jeff. Not at all.

You just need a lesson or two in Nettique, is all. I'm willing to try again. One suggestion - try talking instead of 'teaching'.

[Celia Cyanide]

All I know about the NYT list is that I want to be on it. Preferably one of the single digit numbers. :D

By why the NYT list? Wouldn't you rather be on the USA Today list, which is based on sales? :)

For those who are trying to school Jeff, could you maybe do that in a thread where he really is being over the top? His tone may indicate bad nettiquite, but it's not exactly good nettiquite to keep bringing up someone's behavior in a a different thread and hold it against him, either. I'm not trying to be rude. I just don't see what Jeff's posting style has to do with novel writing.

This thread about how the New York Times Best Seller list is NOT based on actual sales. You might know that already, but not everyone does. I certainly didn't, and I'm not sure why that list is such a big deal.

[jeffrivera]

Maybe NY Times has a certain level of prestige I guess. Hey, why not go for all the lists, USA Today, LA Times, anything you can. Being called "bestselling" can open a lot of doors for you (speaking engagements, commercial endorsements, etc.)

Some people who judge a book by it's cover (which are a lot of people) will see that label "Celia Cyanide - New York Times Bestselling Author" and they assume well she's got to be good if she's a NY Times bestselling author. But I don't think it would matter which list, except maybe toward the book buyers at the independent and chain stores.

[johnzakour]

By why the NYT list? Wouldn't you rather be on the USA Today list, which is based on sales? :)


I think it's tradition. People may feel it's been around for so long it has to be good. There's something to be said for that. (Ask anybody who goes to Oxford or Yale...)

[aadams73]

By why the NYT list? Wouldn't you rather be on the USA Today list, which is based on sales? :)


Fine, fine, I'll take a very nice single digit number on both then. :)

I've even got it written down on my long-term business plan.

[James D. Macdonald]

The best thing about the NYT list is that once you've been on it, your publishers get to put "by the New York Times Best Selling author" on the covers of your books forever after.

[JanDarby]

The important question -- for the Times list or any other list -- is less how it's compiled and more what are you and your publisher doing to get your book on there?

It's one thing to have making a list as a goal (a dream, really, since it's not something you have control over), and another thing to establish steps that could make that dream come true.

The author's role is to write the best book possible, of course, but what's your publisher doing? Sending out ARC's? Pushing it on their sales reps? Making it a lead title? Assigning a publicist? Establishing a marketing plan? Defining your niche? Establishing a brand of some sort for your books? Setting aside a budget for promoting it with booksellers and at ABA or the like? Getting a PW review?

JD

[jeffrivera]

good point JanDarby! well-said.

[badducky]

I'd like to take a moment to direct individuals to the excellent postings about the "business" of writing from our venerable Uncle Jim from the stickied thread at the top of the forum entitled "Index to the Learn Writing with Uncle Jim". Though I don't recall off the top of my head any discussions of New York Times' bestsellers, I do know a large amount of information about the reality of the publishing world is explicated in great depth and detail.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8754

[jeffrivera]

I feel like we're all just one big happy dysfunctional family here. Virtual Hug to everyone - just hope we don't end up on Jerry Springer.

[NeuroFizz]

There is nothing dysfunctional about this place, at least in this part of it. Please get a history of AW by reading threads other than your own before you make such judgements. Then, take a serious look in the mirror and see who appears to be coming from the single-wide.

[stormie]

I feel like we're all just one big happy dysfunctional family here. Virtual Hug to everyone - just hope we don't end up on Jerry Springer.
Happy, yes. Dysfunctional, no. Just a bunch of different writers trying to make their way in the world. As for us ending up on Jerry Springer--we're not that interesting to the general public. As badducky said, "Learn Writing from Uncle Jim" is a really great thread, started by James McDonald a long time ago. Many writers have taken the time to read through it and learn.

Now, back to discussing "The truth about the NY Times list."

[jeffrivera]

There is nothing dysfunctional about this place, at least in this part of it. Please get a history of AW by reading threads other than your own before you make such judgements. Then, take a serious look in the mirror and see who appears to be coming from the single-wide.

that comment wasn't meant as an insult or judgement Neuro that was meant as an endearment comment. See? We even argue like brothers and sisters.

[ORION]

For better information on the various bestseller lists see this article in Slate.

http://www.slate.com/?id=3504

[Silver King]

that comment wasn't meant as an insult or judgement
Well, I called someone a dickhead yesterday, sort of like a pet name, and that didn't go over too well, either.

[jeffrivera]

Hahhaa. In all the madness I forgot to wish everyone
Happy Holidays!
(Merry Christmas, Kwanzaa or anything else you might be celebrating!)

[veinglory]

When people who aren't brothers and sister fight, it's just fighting. The thing with email is that tone is not conveyed until a certain familiarity is in place--so, at least in the beginning, it pays not to take liberties.

[jeffrivera]

When people who aren't brothers and sister fight, it's just fighting. The thing with email is that tone is not conveyed until a certain familiarity is in place--so, at least in the beginning, it pays not to take liberties.

Happy Holidays to you too VeinGlory, and everyone stay safe. Two colleagues of mine had accidents very recently so be careful.

[endless rewrite]

Can you please stop eating sugar.

[veinglory]

AAAAAnyway...

So what lists and rankings do people watch as a reader and a writer. I do keep an eye on Amazon and fictionwise rans--although neither are user friendly. I don't look at any of the newspaper lists.

[TLHines]

The best thing about the NYT list is that once you've been on it, your publishers get to put "by the New York Times Best Selling author" on the covers of your books forever after.
Bingo. And it works, evidently. A friend who made the list this year said his publisher (Penguin) told him having "NYT bestselling author" on the cover gets a 30% spike in sales.

[Elektra]

Bingo. And it works, evidently. A friend who made the list this year said his publisher (Penguin) told him having "NYT bestselling author" on the cover gets a 30% spike in sales.

What I wonder is: does this spike come from having NYT Bestseller on the book, or from increased marketing on a proven thing by the publisher

[johnzakour]

My goal is to spend two months on the Locus Magazine SF bestseller list. I'm not planning on ever seeing the NYT list.

[Elektra]

My real goal is to appear on Miss Snark's Library Thing list :D

[Cathy C]

What I wonder is: does this spike come from having NYT Bestseller on the book, or from increased marketing on a proven thing by the publisher

It's due to having the notation on the cover. Actually, LESS needs to be spent on marketing thereafter, as I understand it. The books sell themselves better because more secondary markets (grocery stores, discount chains, newsstands, airports) tend to purchase the NYT books to stock, making them more visible to the general public who might NOT have heard of the author yet. Secondary markets account for a bunch of sales. :)

And yes, it's very cool to forever have the title, even if you only make the list once in your career. Making the extended list gets you kudos in the publishing crowd, but the Top 10 is what gets those words on the cover and into the public's collective vision. I'm crossing my fingers!

AAAAAnyway...

So what lists and rankings do people watch as a reader and a writer. I do keep an eye on Amazon and fictionwise rans--although neither are user friendly. I don't look at any of the newspaper lists.

Readers pretty much only care about USAT and NYT. The educational/library market watches the ALA Booklist and BookPage. The publishing industry watches several. Here are the primary lists that exist presently and what it takes to make them:

BookScan Top 100

BookScan is an industry tracking system available to publishers only. The general public will seldom if ever see this list. The Top 100 are broken down into specific genres, so that romance will not compete with mystery. To make the Top 100 list, you must sell approximately 950 books in a week. BookScan is a point of sale list.

Publisher's Weekly Top 25

The PW Top 25 is again, geared toward the publishing industry. The public will see the list only if they subscribe to the magazine, and most individuals don't. I believe to make the PW list (again guessing based on hearing other authors talk) that you have to have sold 10,000 in a week. I'm not certain whether PW is a bookstore sales or point of sale list. I'll try to find out.

BookPage Top 50

BookPage is an industry journal to libraries. They indicate how many books are sold within the library community. Usually, a library will only buy one or two books for their collection, so the numbers here are quite a bit lower. I believe that to make the BookPage list, a book must have sold 5,000 nationwide. Of course, that's a LOT of libraries!

FictionWise Top 10 (e-books)

FictionWise is a direct-to-public location to buy e-books and small press titles from a variety of publishers, self-published and POD authors. I don't know what the requirement is for this list. I'll ask around.

Amazon.com Bestseller Top 10

This list is a bit tricky, and I haven't been able to find much about the requirements. But from what I HAVE read, it seems that to make the Top 100 in ranking for an hour, the title must have sold 1,000 copies in the previous 24 hours, and at least 100 during the previous hour. I would then presume that to make the Top 10, sales would have to be much higher -- perhaps selling 5,000 in 24 hours and 500 the previous hour. But I could be wrong. Nobody but Amazon knows for sure. All of the Amazon lists are hourly, rather than weekly, so it's very roller coaster-ish. One website (http://www.fonerbooks.com/surfing.htm) has a pretty good handle on how the Amazon numbers work, and they seem to play out to what I've observed.

Barnes & Noble.com Top 25

See Amazon explanation. Nobody knows for sure. Our book was in the 5,000 mark for nearly six months after release, and as we understand it, that means that 25 books are being sold per week. I don't know what it takes to make it to the Top 25. The highest rank we made was 89 for 24 hours, but I don't know how that translates to real sales.

Does that help any?

[jeffrivera]

This is really, really good Cathy. Thank you.

[Dawno]

Brian Hill and Dee Power's book The Making of a Bestseller goes into detail about the NYT list in chapter 2. It's an interesting book about becoming a bestseller with interviews of editors, authors, agents and publishers.

[anodyne]

Well, I called someone a dickhead yesterday, sort of like a pet name, and that didn't go over too well, either.


No no... you have to go all out. My favorite "endearment comments" :boggle: are asshole and corpseraper. Can't you tell I'm just a delight to hang out with?

[jeffrivera]

Brian Hill and Dee Power's book The Making of a Bestseller goes into detail about the NYT list in chapter 2. It's an interesting book about becoming a bestseller with interviews of editors, authors, agents and publishers.

that's sounds really good Dawno, I'll have to check that out! :) Jeff

[anodyne]

I miss the giant purple lips.

[kwwriter]

Newbie here watching, reading and listening...and learning...BTW, how many posts does it take to move from Newbie to another status? I guess I need to know this before creating a new thread?

[PeeDee]

Newbie here watching, reading and listening...and learning...BTW, how many posts does it take to move from Newbie to another status? I guess I need to know this before creating a new thread?

Approximately three thousand. Dont' worry. You're on your way. Not sleeping helps. Also, forsake friends and family.

[Willowmound]

Newbie here watching, reading and listening...and learning...BTW, how many posts does it take to move from Newbie to another status? I guess I need to know this before creating a new thread?

I created a new thread for my very first post. There's nothing wrong with that. As long as you act like a normal human being.

Mine had a question. I got some really helpful answers too.

[Christine N.]

Don't listen to PeeDee... I think it's 50. I know you need 50 before you can post in TIO. As for how long you're considered a 'newbie'... until the next new guy comes along :D

[stormie]

Don't listen to PeeDee... I think it's 50. I know you need 50 before you can post in TIO. As for how long you're considered a 'newbie'... until the next new guy comes along :D
Which, on these boards, is every 8 1/2 seconds.

[kwwriter]

Thanks all...on my way to being an oldie...I guess this is THE ONLY place age doesn't help. Thankfully. Or I'd be there already. <wink>

[Prog]

Publisher's Weekly Top 25

The PW Top 25 is again, geared toward the publishing industry. The public will see the list only if they subscribe to the magazine, and most individuals don't.


If I'm not mistaken, I think some regional newspapers now print the PW list as their weekly bestseller list.