Am I doing the right thing?

[icerose]

It's been a year now since I've been released from Publish America on both titles and I find myself wanting to do something with them but I don't feel comfortable sending them out to publishers either.

I have put Rise of the Wizards up on Lulu.com. It will take a day or so for it to be buyable. I'm thinking about doing the same with Sign of the Calla Lily, although it's getting an easier name.

Am I doing the right thing by doing this, which I know it won't get any or at least very little attention through this path, or should I be revising them and quering? I haven't been able to bring myself to revise them because it leaves a bad taste in my mouth but I can't abandon the characters all together either. I'm hoping that by puting it out there I might be able to loosen up and disassociate my work from PA's slime. (Is that even possible?)

[farfromfearless]

It's been a year now since I've been released from Publish America on both titles and I find myself wanting to do something with them but I don't feel comfortable sending them out to publishers either.

I have put Rise of the Wizards up on Lulu.com. It will take a day or so for it to be buyable. I'm thinking about doing the same with Sign of the Calla Lily, although it's getting an easier name.

Am I doing the right thing by doing this, which I know it won't get any or at least very little attention through this path, or should I be revising them and quering? I haven't been able to bring myself to revise them because it leaves a bad taste in my mouth but I can't abandon the characters all together either. I'm hoping that by puting it out there I might be able to loosen up and disassociate my work from PA's slime. (Is that even possible?)

Though I have no experience in the matter, I'll hazzard an opinion. I would think that if you're able to prove some sort of sales record for your books it might possibly make it more attractive to agents - I read this somewhere so don't quote me - in any case, if you're still unsure but love the characters, why no restart the story again, consider it a re-write of sorts and then start querying.

[Gabriel]

I'm sure your book is absolutely wonderful and to anyone who would judge it for a broken connection to Publish america (I am a dumb englishman could anybody tell me why these guys are so evil?)
Push yourself to revising if you wish to change, if you do not then push on in another direction, whatever you want.

[Imelda]

I'm sure your book is absolutely wonderful and to anyone who would judge it for a broken connection to Publish america (I am a dumb englishman could anybody tell me why these guys are so evil?)
Push yourself to revising if you wish to change, if you do not then push on in another direction, whatever you want.

Publish America will 'publish' anything and generally aren't considered proper publishers.

Icerose, I think you should revise some more and query. The task might seem terrifying on this side of it, but just imagine how great your book would look on the shelves at Borders. :D

[jodiodi]

I agree with the revise and query faction. Lord knows, I'm in a funk over the revisions I've got to do, but you care enough about the characters and the stories that you don't want to abandon them, so you shouldn't.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

[midwife]

Revise and query. If you can't do that right now, put them aside for a few months. You have time. Work on something new.

Good luck.

[Pamster]

Revise and query. If you can't do that right now, put them aside for a few months. You have time. Work on something new.

Good luck.

Agreed with the others...revising and querying are the next step. Don't sell yourself short icerose, you can do it! Just get to it and believe in yourself, recognize you are going to get rejections but it's the work that is rejected for whatever reason being just not the right fit for the publisher or agent. But that's ok, because it's the word getting rejected and not necessarily because it's unpublishable, it's just not the right fit for the queried party's list of titles.

If you're done sending out some queries and are in the process of waiting on the replies, start on something new if you are done with the old novels. If they stand alone well enough and you're happy with them then leave them alone, if you see things you think you can do better, do it better. You'll be happier in the long run. Don't let the fact you got caught up with PA make you feel badly about your writing. A lot of good people get sucked into that company from what I have seen anyway. It's nothing to be ashamed of you know? :Hug2:

[vrabinec]

It's been a year now since I've been released from Publish America on both titles and I find myself wanting to do something with them but I don't feel comfortable sending them out to publishers either.

I have put Rise of the Wizards up on Lulu.com. It will take a day or so for it to be buyable. I'm thinking about doing the same with Sign of the Calla Lily, although it's getting an easier name.

Am I doing the right thing by doing this, which I know it won't get any or at least very little attention through this path, or should I be revising them and quering? I haven't been able to bring myself to revise them because it leaves a bad taste in my mouth but I can't abandon the characters all together either. I'm hoping that by puting it out there I might be able to loosen up and disassociate my work from PA's slime. (Is that even possible?)

What's the scoop with PA? I've seen Miss Snark rip them (of course, that's an agent's POV) and many authors go running away, screaming vile things about them. I was planning to query agents first, then, if I get no bites after 100 queries, either slit my wrists or decide between POD and a publisher like PA. What do you think you'll get with LULU that you don't with PA? I've just started researching both.

[icerose]

PA, wow you've opened a big discussion, just so you know, so I'll stick to my own personal story.

I submitted to them in January 2001, I got an acceptance two weeks later. I knew nothing about the industry and they were the first ones I queried. I scooped up the acceptance in a heartbeat, again clueless was stamped all over my forehead. I submitted my second book right after that and it got accepted as well. I was an author, two books were coming out. It was unbelievable.

Things seemed okay, the staff was really nice. They were "Giving my book the chance it deserved!" *gag*

I found the message boards in April. I started feeling uneasy, the message boards were partially illiterate, but I started making some friends. I figured it was a message board and they just weren't careful with their posts, and there were some really great writers on board.

Then word cropped up that Ingrams was no longer stocking our books. I freaked out. I e-mailed author support (a joke), no response, so there was a thread on the message board talking about the ingrams situation, I chimed in, voicing my concerns, was it going to affect our books and so forth. Nothing inflammatory. And WHAM, banned. All of us. I e-mailed author support about it, they replied. "You're not banned, you're password has been misplaced, it happens from time to time." Yeah, sure.

Determined not to have a failed book because of those idiots I asked if I could seek my own distribution. See, they blamed ingrams for not giving proper discounts, thus bookstores didn't like to stock the books because they couldn't get a large enough discount.

So I found an awesome distributor, they print and warehouse their own copies, they work with all the big boys, and the bookstores love them. I called around. I also got ahold of Wal-mart's distributor and they agreed if I could get them listed with the bigger distributor they would carry them as well. They would also come in paperback instead of trade paperback which is about the size of a hardcover but with a paperback covers with more gloss. This would mean a lot cheaper than the current 19.99 price tag it was boasting.

I got the go ahead from PA, got the okay from the distributor, it was all lined up, they sent the agreement to PA, PA refused. Turned them down, ripped up the agreement, and said to me "No." This was after I had already attained their permission to do so.

That is when I started fighting for my rights back. I also had lined up three tv interviews, I canceled them. There was no point. My book wouldn't be available to the public so why bother?

I fought them for six months, the proofs had errors added into them, the cover was horrible, we had less than 24 hours to make our own or to deal with the ugly one. It came out despite all the resistence I tried to put up. It had maybe 30 sales, that was with me actively promoting against it. There were still people asking for it (they still are thus the lulu thoughts) they couldn't order it from amazon, or barnes and noble more than one at a time. It would come back as unavailable. The switch in Ingrams supposidely insured that they would never be unavailable. Yeah sure.

I contacted the BBB hoping they would help since it was a contract violation for it to be unavailable and PA had refused to do anything. They first said it would be unavailable from time to time and it was the system's fault, then they said that I never had any trouble ordering it, I could order it one or fifty copies as I pleased. I sent them proof that I was having trouble, I sent all this to the BBB, they closed the case, satisfied PA was doing nothing wrong. I now know that in Maryland the BBB does not consider you a consumer if you also have a business relationship so they are no help.

A local school teacher read it to her class, loved it, went to the state board, the state board agreed to have it included as part of the curriculum if PA would give them a reasonable discount. PA refused saying it did not wish to fufill such a large order.

By this time my second book was coming up, it's cover was even uglier, had absolutely nothing to do with the story, and the image was stolen on top of it. It had even more errors added in.

Then right before it's release date I got two signed and sealed releases.

They are still selling my first book, it is orderable, despite the fact that they stated there were no copies in stock. They haven't replied to any of my inquires into it.

I got several abusive letters from their author support.

Point is, there is nothing you can't get from lulu.com that you can get from PA. Other than abuse, a binding contract, and an ugly cover, added in errors, and so forth.

I have worked on several other things, I am moving ahead with screenplays, I have written and submitted books and am working on a new one right now.

These two were both first books of series, I know how I want them to be rewritten, but everytime I go into the document to try my fingers freeze. I know it's all in my head but I'm hoping putting them back out there without the PA logo will unfreeze them and with lulu I can delete it and within a day, poof, it's gone. This way those who have been asking for it and asking for it can buy it if they want to.

As for you Vrab, I strongly suggest working on your next book. Most authors don't get published until they have written several. If you can't get any bites on this one, put it away for a while and work on the next one, and continue doing so. It will improve your writing like you wouldn't believe. I know, I'm working on my sixth.

ETA: The seperating their slime from my work is strictly for my benefit. Many people in the industry have come forward and said it doesn't make much of a difference as it doesn't count as a publishing credit.

[vrabinec]

Thanks Ice, interesting indeed. I think I'll concentrate on finishing my first and judging by your testimony and some others I've seen, I'll probably stay clear of PA. By the way, I live in Frederick, so I'm very familiar with the Maryland BBB over an auto repair gone wild. Those people are worthless at best.

[icerose]

Thanks Ice, interesting indeed. I think I'll concentrate on finishing my first and judging by your testimony and some others I've seen, I'll probably stay clear of PA. By the way, I live in Frederick, so I'm very familiar with the Maryland BBB over an auto repair gone wild. Those people are worthless at best.

Yeah, they are. Which is probably why they chose to base their business there.

If you want to go with PA because they list it with Amazon, don't. No one is accidently going to buy your book if you self publish. It's just as easy to find it on lulu as it is amazon, plus your book will be nearly 10 dollars cheaper through lulu and you will get an even bigger cut. (you set your own royalty amount.)

I'm not saying self publish, I'm just saying if you choose to go that route, PA is not it.

[Imelda]

PA refused saying it did not wish to fufill such a large order.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

I can't express how amazed I am at that. What sane business person/scam artist would turn down a large order? Crazy.

[priceless1]

It's been a year now since I've been released from Publish America on both titles and I find myself wanting to do something with them but I don't feel comfortable sending them out to publishers either.

I'm hoping that by puting it out there I might be able to loosen up and disassociate my work from PA's slime. (Is that even possible?)
Icerose, I can't answer your question for you, but I can tell you what we've done in the past with a couple of our authors -one self-pubbed and the other was formerly with a POD.

In both cases, we changed the title so as to completely disassociate from the previous books, and of course, gave them new cover art.

If someone likes your story and feels they can sell it, they'll breathe new life into it regardless of its orignal home. Good luck to you!

[Cathy C]

but I don't feel comfortable sending them out to publishers either.


Why? Do you feel they have some flaw that would make them less than attractive? If so, then why use Lulu? Wouldn't you be happier in the long run if you made them as good as you know they can be?

Remember that just last week, Lucienne Diver answered a direct question that she WOULD be willing to look at a book pubbed by PA, so long as you owned the rights, and said other agents would as well.

Why not give an agent a try? :)

[icerose]

If someone likes your story and feels they can sell it, they'll breathe new life into it regardless of its orignal home. Good luck to you!

Thanks Priceless. I really appreciate that.

Why? Do you feel they have some flaw that would make them less than attractive? If so, then why use Lulu? Wouldn't you be happier in the long run if you made them as good as you know they can be?


It's not so much that I feel they have some flaw, it's that I don't trust them or myself with them if that makes any sense.

I have had several readers say they couldn't put them down but I guess at this point I just don't believe it after all I went through with PA.

I know, I'm crazy, and I don't plan on leaving them with lulu forever, just long enough for me to look at them as real books again, I guess.

This is where my own self doubt comes into play. I don't have nearly this problem with any of my other work, but the two pieces that went through PA...yeah.

[icerose]

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

I can't express how amazed I am at that. What sane business person/scam artist would turn down a large order? Crazy.

It's because if they do it with one book then other authors will expect the same and their whole scam starts to unravel because they can't afford to do it with every book.

[Judg]

Icerose, I would advise forgoing Lulu and querying agents with them. It might feel a bit traumatic at first, but I'm sure your "healing" would come a lot faster with an agent lining up contracts for you. With the response they've had so far, that doesn't sound far-fetched to me. And it seems to me like the most positive form of revenge you could possibly take. Play "I Will Survive" a couple of times and write those query letters! Caveat: I'm not exactly an industry insider.

[Arkie]

I can tell you what I have done with my PA book that I recently received my rights back to. I have edited, retitled and changed my pen name and have packaged it with two other novels that I am now sending to agents.

I believe all three of my books have possibilities, particularly the PA book, because I had such a good reception locally, and I sold over 80 copies to libraries and a lot of folks don't believe PODs can be sold to libraries, but nevertheless, I did it.

However, I read where an acquistion editor stated that he, and other editors, automatically "googled" the name of every author, or book mentioned, to determine if the author had published, and the number of sales of the book(s); therefore, POD books with a limited sales record are considered a detriment and are passed over; consequently, I changed book title and pen name so as not to be associated with what I am sure many editors would consider a failed effort.

[icerose]

I've heard that they only google them if they offer up credentials and they check to see if the credentials are real and helpful or not.

[Arkie]

I've heard that they only google them if they offer up credentials and they check to see if the credentials are real and helpful or not.

I think it would be helpful for you to read, "78 Reasons Why Your Book May Never Be Published and 14 Reasons Why It Just Might," by Pat Walsh, founding editor of MacAdam/Cage Publishing.

[icerose]

I will look for the book in the local library.

I used my real name with PA, if I went with something else it would have to be a pen name. I really don't want to use one but if I have to I already know the one I want to use.

[priceless1]

I can tell you what I have done with my PA book that I recently received my rights back to. I have edited, retitled and changed my pen name and have packaged it with two other novels that I am now sending to agents.

...an acquistion editor stated that he, and other editors, automatically "googled" the name of every author, or book mentioned, to determine if the author had published, and the number of sales of the book(s); therefore, POD books with a limited sales record are considered a detriment and are passed over; consequently, I changed book title and pen name so as not to be associated with what I am sure many editors would consider a failed effort. Yes, Arkie, anyone who's potentially investing in a work will do as much research as possible. Personally speaking, when I find someone who has gone to the lengths you have to hide your previous association (thought I don't blame you), I'm irritated. Yes, I'll go ahead and read the submission, but that writer has used up major Brownie points with me. That isn't the mood you want any agent or editor being in before reading your work.

I understand the problems and have heard all the arguments as to why people feel this deception is necessary, and I always go back to the fact that if a work is outstanding there is no need for deception. Is the risk of being found out worth it to you?

Something else I'd like to add, since it's germaine to this thread, is making sure that you're actually FREE from your previous publisher. I just sent a nastygram (something I usually never do) to someone whose PA book is still very much for sale. The author made a minor change to the title and sent it out for submission, never disclosing his book's current status. He just sent me a reply stating that he's angry at PA and wants out of his contract. Yes, well, this is nice, but facts are facts - he has a legally binding contract. Wishing PA would go away doesn't make it so. This sort of deception and naivete is irritating. And what's worse, is I'll remember his name. He's dead to me. Not that that's any big deal, but why burn bridges when the truth is so much easier to remember?

[icerose]

Something else I'd like to add, since it's germaine to this thread, is making sure that you're actually FREE from your previous publisher. I just sent a nastygram (something I usually never do) to someone whose PA book is still very much for sale. The author made a minor change to the title and sent it out for submission, never disclosing his book's current status. He just sent me a reply stating that he's angry at PA and wants out of his contract. Yes, well, this is nice, but facts are facts - he has a legally binding contract. Wishing PA would go away doesn't make it so. This sort of deception and naivete is irritating. And what's worse, is I'll remember his name. He's dead to me. Not that that's any big deal, but why burn bridges when the truth is so much easier to remember?

I have never tried to hide my previous association, in fact I talk about it a lot because I hope it will keep other people from signing with them.

I really don't want to use a penname and would only use one if my editor felt it was best.

As for my book being really free. I have two release forms, the contracts are terminated. So yes, legally the books are free. Illegally, however, PA is still selling one of my books. I don't have the funds to take them to court over breach of copyright which is probably what is making the healing process that much more difficult. I feel like I will never be done with them.

I know your reply wasn't pointed at me Priceless, I just wanted to make it clear.

I also plan on doing a fairly extensive rewrite of that one since it still is up for sale, and well, it's probably for the best for the book anyway. I don't see why a publisher would want to get in the middle of all this so that is another reason why I was thinking about going with lulu.

[vrabinec]

He's dead to me.

I love that line.

And, yeah, I'd be pissed too if someone wasted that much of my time.

[icerose]

Dang it Priceless, you're publishing company rejects just about every type of writing I do.

[priceless1]

I know your reply wasn't pointed at me Priceless, I just wanted to make it clear. I know, Icerose. Anyone researching you would find exactly what you've claimed to be. Actually, that part of my missive wasn't directed at anyone on this list. I was merely stating what most would consider fairly obvious - not submitting unless you have your book rights - because, well, apparently it's not that obvious after all.

Dang it Priceless, you're publishing company rejects just about every type of writing I do. Oops. Sorry. We do have a pretty narrow field.

[Arkie]

Icerose don't fret. Lynn has rejected me, and it was not my PA book; although, she would have known that I was a PA author, the same as she, from my participation on the PA message boards.

Rejections are part of the writing game and you hope that it is lack of writing quality that causes the rejection, or not the right fit for the publisher, and not an association with a POD outfit. However, it is always in the back of your mind, or my mind anyway.

[icerose]

That's okay Priceless, I'll find a home for my books, I just really like you and was considering submitting.

I have no problems with rejections actually. I don't really consider my rejections in association with the outfit, it has more to do with my inner feelings about the books and what they went through than anything else. I haven't had a problem writing other things for the most part, except when my writing started leapfrogging and I found myself unable to finish books, but I kicked that so I'm sure I'll kick this one.

[CheshireCat]

However, I read where an acquistion editor stated that he, and other editors, automatically "googled" the name of every author, or book mentioned, to determine if the author had published, and the number of sales of the book(s); therefore, POD books with a limited sales record are considered a detriment and are passed over; consequently, I changed book title and pen name so as not to be associated with what I am sure many editors would consider a failed effort.

Haven't finished reading the thread, so I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but it isn't really possible to check sales figures via Google -- at least not if you're published with any of the major houses. (Maybe it's different with POD? And maybe that's all we're talking about here; if so, sorry!)

Mainstream traditional publishers guard those actual figures close to the vest, so close that even the authors and agents themselves sometimes have problems getting print run and sell-through figures.

You might stumble across a writer's page offering numbers, or some article or review doing the same, but any reputable agent or editor should know that you'll only get accurate numbers directly from the house.

Assuming you want to offer up your firstborn child, that is. :e2teeth: