How to write a comic [Archive] - Absolute Write Water Cooler

wordmonkey

02-24-2007, 08:45 AM

Really?

I assume that's in regard to Alan Moore's tomes.

He is legendary for his detailed scripts. I forget the artist, but I read an interview with a collaborator and he was talking about the amazing detail AM put in a description of a single panel, which supposedly included a reference to a potted flower. Seems he gave the entire life story of the flower. And the flower had nothing to do with the actual plot in any way, shape or form. I also seem to recall that he supposedly did an amazing amount of research for the FROM HELL GN, resulting in his theory for Jack the Ripper (as written in the book) being one deduced from the evidence he gleened from his research.

I make no claim that any of that is true, and to some degree, I think Alan Moore has built a nice little mythos around himself, of which this is part. Whether it's true or not doesn't matter.

Ultimately like any kind of writing, you develop your style. I like writing comic scripts, because it's like a movie script, but I have the power to dictate the look of a panel (where as when I write a movie script, I need to leave the visual element to the director). That said, for as detailed as I am, I always leave the artist room to bring their element and if they get into the groove, they are free to change a panel or page layout if what they have starts to work better.

Cutting to the chase (and I really shouldn't have answered this AFTER the whisky) you can be as detailed as you want, but like any kinda collaborative writing, you can't be precious.

Did that just muddy the waters further? Hope not.

PeeDee

02-25-2007, 12:26 AM

Alan Moore does kind of have a mythos built up around himself, but part of it is probably just the result of some of his works. He's a powerful writer. Things like Watchman are well known and have been spoken about more eloquently than I can manage here.

But there are works like Promethea which are also brilliant, and I still love his run on Swamp Thing. His batman story, The Killing Joke was not the best Batman story, nor the best Alan Moore story that I've ever read. It still wasn't bad.

I'm trying my hardest to remember where one or two of his scripts are available, and I'm failing miserably. He writes an astonishing amount of detail in, like wordmonkey said. That's not exaggerated.

I tend to write much, much less detail and much thinner (if you see what I mean by 'thinner') scripts because I have to keep the story moving in my own head, or I lose it. Writing a story in comic script mode is different than writing it with prose. So I write fast scripts.

but in my defense, when I'm working with an artist, he and I are usually on the same wavelength. If I write "hunchbacked vampire" (not that I've had cause to yet) I know what he's going to produce. It'll still surprise me, because it'll be unique to him, but it'll better describe what I meant than anything I'd said. If you follow me.

Play to your artist's strengths, too. It'll make you look good every time. If you're working with an artist who could draw a good, rough, vicious zombie book, then don't turn around and try to get him to draw Goodbye Chunky Rice. I bet he can do it, but he won't have as much fun, and neither will you.

wordmonkey

02-25-2007, 03:18 AM

Following PeeDee's advice, it also depends on how you are working with your artist.

If I'm running the gig, I like to get in with the artist before I even start properly writing the script. I know the general plot and the tone I wanna go with, so I chat with the artist and let him/her develop concepts. I MUCH prefer this way of working because EVERY time I do, they come up with little things, backgrounds, clothing, jewelry, etc., and it makes me think, "OK, what's that about?" Before long, the entire thing has become richer and more complex, and having those visuals, makes it easier for me to get into the script.

If I'm hack-for-hire, and I don't have the above luxury, I tend to be much more descriptive and detailed in the script because I want to make sure that the artist totally gets what I'm setting up.

The fractured nature of a script can be an issue, but the first thing I do is a set of 22 thumbnails for the book. I have a single sheet, template PDF file, (each page is the same dimensions as a standard US comicbook) that I print out. I then sit down and layout the pages and do little stick-men sketches for the book. Doing this I nail the flow of the book very quickly. From there I go and do the script. By breaking it down further, making it more disjointed, actually helps me sit down and flow through the actual writing part.

I never demand that an artist follow my layouts, but I know I'm not writing something impossible to fit in a page and I also get an immediate idea of whether I can fit a lot of dialog/bubbles on a page or not.

Anyone wants that PDF file can PM me. Might not work for you, but I couldn't do a script with out it.

PeeDee

02-25-2007, 04:19 AM

Wordmonkey, I wouldn't mind seeing your .PDF file. My e-mail should be available easily enough.

Neil Gaiman and others also use the thumbnail comic idea, and it's not a bad idea. I don't, because I don't see it in panels (except by necessity) I just see the scenes and the dialogue.

I tend to chat with the artist, but not in an "official" capacity. I'll gab about what I'm writing and how they might look, what things are like, but mostly I don't mind if the artist inputs his own general vision into the comic. The point of working with different artists, after all, is to have different styles. Not just different people drawing your style, yanno?

wordmonkey

02-25-2007, 10:06 PM

Wordmonkey, I wouldn't mind seeing your .PDF file. My e-mail should be available easily enough.

Check your email, dude. Sent.

Neil Gaiman and others also use the thumbnail comic idea, and it's not a bad idea. I don't, because I don't see it in panels (except by necessity) I just see the scenes and the dialogue.

For me, it's as much to make sure I keep on top of pacing and make sure that I don't make for page after page of the same nine panel, tree-by-three layout. Also allows me to duplicate a page layout exactly, if I want.

I tend to chat with the artist, but not in an "official" capacity. I'll gab about what I'm writing and how they might look, what things are like, but mostly I don't mind if the artist inputs his own general vision into the comic. The point of working with different artists, after all, is to have different styles. Not just different people drawing your style, yanno?

Given that thus far I've done horror, supers, humor and fantasy scripts, hopefully my style varies to suit the genre. But I take your point. The way I understand it, I tend to work in the DC method. Marvel is much looser where the writer says "OK, this page hasthis happening." and the artist then takes the page layout from there and does their thing, then it goes back to the writer to add the bubble-age. I actually do plan to try that with an artist, but we are both kinda busy at the moment.

Ultimately, what I was doing a bad job of conveying was that beyond a very basic format requirement, comics aren't as rigid as movie scripts. This is probably because very few publishers by a project based on the script alone, so as long as you can get the idea to an artist, THAT is ultimately what will sell the book - the art, not your words. Sad, but true.

PeeDee

02-25-2007, 10:16 PM

Ultimately, what I was doing a bad job of conveying was that beyond a very basic format requirement, comics aren't as rigid as movie scripts. This is probably because very few publishers by a project based on the script alone, so as long as you can get the idea to an artist, THAT is ultimately what will sell the book - the art, not your words. Sad, but true.

Oh, I don't know. That might be true for some of the books that Jim Lee does the art for (where the writing is...less than fantastic) but as fondly as I remember Charles Vess' artwork or Jill Thompson's artwork on Sandman, it's the story that hits me in the heart every time.

I don't think Marvel uses their "this sorta thing" happens approach much anymore. It fizzled more than a little when Joe Quesada stepped up to the plate. Although given the way things like Civil War worked, I bet that's still how they plan their "events..."

wordmonkey

02-25-2007, 11:01 PM

Oh, I don't know. That might be true for some of the books that Jim Lee does the art for (where the writing is...less than fantastic) but as fondly as I remember Charles Vess' artwork or Jill Thompson's artwork on Sandman, it's the story that hits me in the heart every time.

Ah, now I don't mean for a second that the writer is second in the ranks. Who gets first credit in the books? But since this thread started in what seemed to me to be someone trying to break in, the art is what sells a book. Always will.

However, what follows from that is very simple. Come for the art, stay for the writing.

If you pitch a project, the art is what will get the project picked up, and unless you are a Gaiman, Moore or Loeb, in the store, it's the cover and the flip through the book scanning the art that will make the reader buy. Your job as a writer is to make sure they buy the next issue.

Yeah, it sucks, but comics are a visual medium.

PeeDee

02-25-2007, 11:10 PM

Yeah, it sucks, but comics are a visual medium.

I see what you mean now. Yeah, in the context you're talking about, the art is what sells it.

However, it doesn't 'suck' that comics are a visual medium. If it wasn't enjoyable, fun to write and fun to draw and fun to read, then we would all just issue monthly short stories and skip the whole process.

I like comics. There are things you can do in comics that you could never do in prose (and vice versa).

wordmonkey

02-25-2007, 11:15 PM

However, it doesn't 'suck' that comics are a visual medium. If it wasn't enjoyable, fun to write and fun to draw and fun to read, then we would all just issue monthly short stories and skip the whole process.

Again, me not being clear. It sucks that initially the writer doesn't come off as being a valuable player. If you're trying to break it, it is nigh impossible (unless you are coming from another medium) to get anyone to even look at your writing.

Go to a Con and see how many big names will sit at a booth and review artwork. Then see if you can get one, JUST one, to look over your scripts. Ain't gonna happen. THAT'S what sucks. And trying to get an artist to draw your pages in even more difficult.

I think, all things considered, trying to break into comic writing is probably one of, if not THE hardest way to get into writing as a career. Not least because common industry wisdom says that however you hear of someone breaking in, forget that route because the industry will seal that way in immediately.

But I agree, if you get in, it's frikkin' awesome!

PeeDee

02-25-2007, 11:19 PM

I agree, that it is damn rough. (And I knew you weren't saying "comics suck!" or anything, don't worry.)

It's also damn fun.

As for showing comic scripts to people, I almost never show it to anyone but the artist. If I submit to a publisher like Marvel or DC, I send them artwork and maybe some script too.

I think of the script less as being something i intend to sell (like a short story) and more like being an extensive post-it note to the artist.

I kind of like that the writing can take a backseat to the art, or a less-visible seat anyway. It's more subversive. Especially if you buy the book for the cool super-hero pictures, and then you read it and it breaks your heart.

(P.S., I realize I keep sounding like I'm arguing with you. I'm not. We're on the same page. I'm just musing and chattering.)

wordmonkey

02-25-2007, 11:30 PM

(P.S., I realize I keep sounding like I'm arguing with you. I'm not. We're on the same page. I'm just musing and chattering.)

S'OK, I get it. Much as anything I'm trying to make sure that I'm being clear for the folks who are trying to get a toe in the door.

Once you're in, it get s alittle easier, but it's still a constant effort to keep rolling and until you make a big break, you can never sit back.

But it is cool to be able to talk to someone who knows what you're talking about. My wife nods encouragingly, but you can tell she's ust waiting to get back to watching American Idol. And writers of other disciplines don't always get how THIS industry works.

PeeDee

02-25-2007, 11:34 PM

Although that sure doesn't stop them all from popping up and writing comics. I'm not sure when it happened, but comics went from being cool and slightly outlawed things to being the "it" thing to write. Everyone does a comic now. It's a little depressing.

AceTachyon

03-08-2007, 02:03 AM

Go to a Con and see how many big names will sit at a booth and review artwork. Then see if you can get one, JUST one, to look over your scripts. Ain't gonna happen. THAT'S what sucks. And trying to get an artist to draw your pages in even more difficult.

Well said.

Wrote a few sample scripts then decided it'd be better to write and draw an short story. Put together an ashcan, use that as a sampler, ya know?

But I think my artwork's got a long way to go and that's probably what'll hurt my chances. So the ashcan sits on my shelf and I spend my spare non-writing moments practicing my art.

But one of these days....

wordmonkey

03-08-2007, 04:16 AM

Despite all the doom and gloom, it is possible to find an artist.

I know.

I've done it.

I still do it.

But it's incredibly difficult. Out of the last, maybe 20 approaches I've made to pencilers, it breaks down roughly like this:

12 simply didn't answer
5 (and these I would say were the more professional) said no, thanked me for the interest and in some cases wanted to keep in touch (never burn bridges unless you really need to).
2 said yeah, lets do something. Then they'd disappear.
1 said yes and looks promising.

And I'm working in comics, have been published and recently got a mention in Wizard (did I mention I was in Wizard? 'Cos I'm in Wizard. No biggy. Just Wizard, right? With me in it!!! ;) ).

It's incredibly frustrating. But it is do-able.

You can also look at the smaller indie companies. They will sometimes be open to just writers. These tend to be a more studio-type set-up, where they're a collective of creatives and not a publisher per se. However, there is some value there. They'll find you an art team and when the book, or pitch is done, they take over and do all the leg work.

However, it's the same with every kind of writing. What you do at the start sucks. And when you look back you'll be embarrassed. So make sure that if you do get a publisher, studio or penciler to look at your work, it is awesome. It MUST be visual. You gotta do something so amazing that the penciler's reaction is, "I wanna start drawing that NOW!"

Easy, eh?

PeeDee

03-08-2007, 04:40 AM

It really isn't all doom and gloom. I've got an artist that I'm always working with. He's illustrating my serial novel entries, and I've just finished three pages of a comic script and sent them off to him. We have no promise of publication on this one, but he'll do a damn good job and we'll find a publisher for it before too long.

So it is doable. Wordmonkey's absolutely right.

AceTachyon

03-08-2007, 08:13 PM

Oh I'm sure it is doable. After all, both of you found artists. I probably just need to get off my butt and start looking.

Then again, I might just be too stubborn and try to do it all myself.

wordmonkey

03-08-2007, 09:35 PM

You can look at the adds on Digital Webbing. You can even post an add yourself looking for a penciler. However, I gotta warn you, unless you are paying a page-rate, your chances of finding a GOOD artist that way, are on the none-end of the slim-to-none scale.

I would recommend that instead you look at the samples posted by artists in the forums. DW has one; Figma used to, but seems to be dead now; PencilJack has one too.

You can do the same at Deviant.

Look through the online portfolios and try to find an artist that suits your style of writing/book idea. Then send them a nice email. Love your work, would you be interested in collaborating. Lather, rinse and repeat, and repeat, and repeat, and repeat, and... you get the idea.

The majority won't be interested, and a few will jerk your chain, but you will find the odd one here and there who are hungry and talented and committed to making it. And when you do, stay very close to them. They will go places and make contacts, and if they owe you for the start, you get to have an insider in places you didn't have before.

PeeDee

03-08-2007, 10:45 PM

Mostly, it wont' do you much good to seem plaintive and desperately trying to find an artist. It's a whole different world, the working relationship between artists and writers.

Write scripts. Have ideas. Be willing to work in different mediums. I wasn't actively looking for fresh work in the comic field -- I have other fish to fry, I have a novel and a serial that I'm busy with -- but the opportunity was there, so I went for it. In this case, it was an editor saying "It's a decent short story, but it'd make a great single-issue comic." Things like that. Be wiling to do other stuff, and be willing to go for comics when the chance appears.

wordmonkey

03-08-2007, 11:12 PM

Yeah, don't beg.

You are bringing something to the table too.

But then make sure you do bring something awesome.

PeeDee

03-08-2007, 11:16 PM

And if all else fails, remember...you can submit to most of the big publishers without actually having an artist. Just do up a script, usually a query letter, a summary of the series (whether it's limited or ongoing).

The odds aren't any better than anywhere else in publishing, and it doesn't hurt to have some credits to your name already, but it's an option.

PeeDee

03-08-2007, 11:17 PM

the biggest advantage to finding the aritst first -- and this may be for just me -- is that you can play to the artist's strengths with your writing.

I've talked about it before somewhere, but it's worth reiterating. If the artist does really wonderful Trolls and things Trollish, then why not do him a Troll story? It's just an example, but it's a good idea. It means the artist has fun, you can have fun writing something different, the art is stunning (which, in turn makes both you and the artist look good...)

wordmonkey

03-08-2007, 11:33 PM

Playing to an artist's strengths is a good idea, plus you can appeal to their ego. "I love your work, I would love to write something for you/your characters."

If you do that, I would also then try and find someone with a very different style too. The reason is that, since it's a visual medium, the Editor you sub to might love the comic you sub, go looking and see that this artist does awesome trolls, but bugger all else. If you have another comic, in another style, with another artist, YOU don't get stuck with the "can only do one thing" vibe.

Of course, I just doubled your problems, because then you're looking for twice as many artists.

Is this fun, or what? :D

PeeDee

03-08-2007, 11:35 PM

The solution to that problem is to just find a genius artist who can do everything,of course.

Yay!

Why not buy a yacht after lunch too?

:D

(Pete should be writing comic script instead of chatting here, he really should.)

wordmonkey

03-08-2007, 11:44 PM

Dude!

What is it? Everytime I post, you gotta post after me? Like getting thelast word in or something?

:tongue

PeeDee

03-09-2007, 12:31 AM

Yes. :D

AceTachyon

03-09-2007, 01:16 AM

And there he goes again.

Your turn, wordmonkey.

PeeDee

03-09-2007, 01:23 AM

Anyway, before we completely hijack the thread...maybe we should instead discuss the wisdom of which publisher you should pick, whether submitting your comic or just the script, or just the art.

There are a lot of them. Marvel, DC, Dark Horse, Image, Vertigo (I know, they're sub-houses those last two, but you submit seperately anyway) DigitalWebbing...

...or sould you publish it through something like Lulu all by yourself? Or should you go through a POD comic publisher, like ComiXpress?

AceTachyon

03-09-2007, 01:23 AM

As for the preceeding posts on finding and working with artists, all good stuff. I'll probably start looking down that road and see where it gets me. I know about DW and Deviant. I'll check out Penciljack.

wordmonkey

03-09-2007, 01:24 AM

Yes. :D

OK.

Just as long as I know.

wordmonkey

03-09-2007, 01:38 AM

OK, so you have your penciler, s/he has done some amazing pages and you're jazzed.

What now?

Inker? Colorist? Letterer?

Now you could find someone who does the lot (though likely as not, unless you are going stylized, you want a real letterer to do the wordage, IMO).

My recommendation would be to ink with a view to no color. If the inking is good enough, it will stand as black and white OR can have color added later. There's another reason for ignoring color at this stage. Cost.

Self Publication would be my VERY last option, with one exception.

If you can get one full issue taken through to finished comicbook stage, and you are pitching, you can do a lot worse than pitch a "finished" book. This is not to say you have to make a finished book, but considering that most editors are gonna get there fair share of bad color copies and print outs where the cyan cartridge was running low, you sending them a bound book looks good. It stands out and makes an impression.

That said, if you have contacts, you can send lo-res PDFs over email and still be taken seriously (I know, I did).

Pitching to the big two is, I would say, a waste of time. But you can query them for a writing gig. Chances are slim, but you can try. Looking at both companies though, if you have no printed work, chances are they will not as to see your work.

Image and Dark Horse you can pitch to, and then you have a whole slew of companies. A lot say they don't accept pitches, but if you query them AND have something of a track record, you may be asked to pitch. You might even be commissioned to work on something for them. But do yourself a favor, research the publisher. Don't pitch "Bambi III: Buttercups and Roses" to a company that does schlock horror comics. And make sure your sample is approriate too.

Most companies don't accept anything from writers, but a few will. And again, if you have been published, they may make an exception.

Self Publishing your book is less of a stink-issue in comics, because you can go to cons and sell your book. It also makes a handy sample to hand to Joe Q when you bump into him at Wizard Con.

So, I thik I touched on almost every option without actually making any real push for one over another. Helpful, eh?

OK, PeeDee. Tag, you're it!

PeeDee

03-09-2007, 08:41 AM

I've been tagged, how cool. :)

Wordmonkey's got all the reasons nailed for why to generally avoid color when you're doing your own comics unless you can find a colorist. There are a lot of artists who do their own colors, and I'm never as impressed as I am when they're done by someone who makes a living (or a full-blown hobby) out of coloring.

Go browse the forums at DigitalWebbing, check out some of the samples of the colorists. See what I mean?

One big disadvantage to having a black 'n' white comic is, if you have white text bubbles against a black and white background, they can get lost in the page. This is the equivalent of the reader opening a book and finding no paragraphs, just block after block of text. There's no entry point, no easy entry point, if you see what I mean.

But that is not good enough reason to go with bad coloring.

In my opinion (and, somewhat, my experience) colorists are a little more willing to work on projects, so that's something to definitely check out DigitalWebbing type sites for. For one thing, if you're looking for a colorist, you've got an artist, and that means you're halfway there. It makes it easier.

As for lettering, if your artist can't do it cleanly and concisely (much more important than style; the best letterers like the amazing Todd Klein imply rather than display impressive styles.) then I would suggest having him draw you the word balloons, and then either you or him do it via a program like Adobe Photoshop, using a clean and easy to read type font. For comics, Arial or Verdana works well. Something readable. And remember, readable in a comic works in a different sense than readable in a book. You need a little stronger and smoother of a font, because it has a lot to stand out against. In a book, all it has to stand out against are other words.

PeeDee

03-09-2007, 09:00 AM

Let's talk comic scripts, too.

How detailed? how do you write 'em? What should they look like?

The answer here is trickier, in that there is no right answer. Comic scripts run the range, from Alan Moore's thicker-than-thick scripts that are nearly pieces of literature themselves....to the old Stan Lee scripts to Steve Ditko, where the script was basically a phone conversation that Ditko would then draw, and then Stan Lee would put some words in it.

(You may think I'm simplifying, but I'm not by that much. Early Marvel was pretty much like that, for quite some time.)

Some people fall more or less in the middle.

My answer: Write to your artist. This means that how you write a script will change each and every time.

The advantage to writing a thinner, less detailed script is that you're giving your story, you're giving the tone and idea of the comic...and then you're letting the artist really be inventive and creative with the visuals, letting the artist provide the texture and the tone that he gleans from your story. In a way, this is like having the comic drawn by a Beta Reader, if you will, in that if he's drawing a dark and gritty 'tone' to your comic, it's not because you wrote "I want it drawn in a dark and gritty tone," in the script, it's because you wrote a script that's dark and gritty and he's innately picking up on that.

Plus, it means you get surprised when something comes back that's clearly your story, with yoru words, and your ideas...except it's not yours in a lot of ways, and you get to delight and thrill in reading it, as if it were a story written by a soul-twin that you somehow know, without knowing.

...

A piece of advice: Unless important to the story, if an artist returns a result that's a bit different from what you intended and it works, then think carefully before changing it.

When I write, whether it's comic scripts or short stories or novels, I have very clear visuals in my head. WHen I write comic scripts, I can concentrate hard enough and see how the panels look, how the characters look, how the page will be set up, all that. I always know how the characters look in my head.

But sometimes, the artist picks up on details (as I mentioned above) and goes in a little different direction. A key example is, my artist for my robot serial sent me a concept sketch of one of the key characters in the story that looked nothing like I envisioned, but exactly like what I think I meant, under that all. Do you see what I mean? What I saw was different from what distilled onto the page, and that's what he picked up on and drew from. Now at first, it jarred me because my instinctive reaction is "That's not how he looks," but that's a knee-jerk reaction and nothing more. I like how he drew the character, and that's the image that I write to now. I think it writes a stronger character.

Let your artist surprise you, and let yourself be willing to be surprised.

...

Back to comic scripts.

My default method of writing a script is pretty basic. Here's a rough idea:

...

PAGE ONE (nine panels): Three panels on top, one long strip panel, three panels below, two panels below that.

PANEL ONE: A shot of our man walking down the street, hands in his pockets.

NO TEXT.

PANEL TWO: A shot of our man, same as before, but shadowed heavily.

TEXT (People shouting, off-panel): Oh my God! What's THAT!? Look out!

PANEL THREE: Our man looks up, startled.

CLARK(thought): This is how you know the day's going badly.

PANEL FOUR: A robot lands on top of CLARK KENT, scattering bits of road and cars all around it in a heavy, heavy shock wave. We see a bit of John's hand and foot sticking up in the panel, out from under the robot's big feet.

PANEL FIVE: Complete blackness.

CAPTION: "That really hurts. I don't care how invincible you are, big robot landing on top of you equals pain."

PANEL SIX: A side shot of the robot's big leg. It's raised up out of the hole in the ground, CLARK's hands pushing it up. His skin is intact, his sleeves are tattered and filthy.

CAPTION: "And honestly, a big robot? Who wakes up and thinks 'golly, today I will build a big robot, what a great idea.' Seriously?"

PANEL SEVEN: CLARK sitting all the way up, arms over his head, still holding up the robot foot. His teeth are clenched. He's filthy and his clothes are shredded and dirty, but his skin is intact.

CAPTION: "If that's how they think, I don't know why I even need to stop the bad guys and save the world. They aren't getting out their front doors this way."

PANEL EIGHT: A shot from behind CLARK, who is now standing up in the hole. His arms are back, he's just flung the robot off him and despite being six stories tall, it's gone sailing away from him.

CAPTION: "Still, I don't get on the front page of papers by looking good in tights, which is a shame."

PANEL EIGHT: A shot of CLARK'S chest, where he's just ripped open his tattered shirt and jacket, to reveal the SUPERMAN uniform underneath.

CAPTAIN: "Guess I'd better get on with it."

...

Now, maybe when the robot lands, I'd want to provide a little more description about what he looks like. Is it a big blocky foot that lands on Clark Kent, like a Gundam robot or a Transformer? Is it smooth and rounded, like Metallo or an android? Is it white with red trimming? Gray with green trimming?

On the other hand, this is where a good rapport with the artist comes in handy, in that you can casually mention in your e-mails back and forth (and I do mean casually, assuming you two just talk) that your robot's big and green, and here's a DeviantArt picture that you think really looks kinda' sorta' like what you're going for, but not exactly. And then the artist goes "Oh, I get what he means," and goes off and does something cool.

OR, in that same script, I could have detailed every little thing. God knows I have it in my head. I know that when the robot landed, it threw up bits of concrete that punctured the windows of a Taxi Cab, that at the edge of that long panel was a man in a brown suit ducking, with his briefcase held over his head, against which deflected a small chunk of concrete, and in the background is a woman running away between tall buildings, and a street light that's red.

But what's the point? For me, none, unless the artist requests and needs that level of detail provided. If I say Clark's in "Downtown Metropolis, daytime, busy, on the sidewalk," then I'll probably get something that's along the lines of what I intended.

On the other hand, if the look of the comic is important to the story (I need a certain character to have a certain facial expression every time he says a certain phrase) then I would want to be specific about that. If something's wrong wiht the world, I'd want to mention that. If I need the tone and image of the comic to look a specific way to benefit the story, then I should go into as much detail as possible to convey that.

But at the end of the day, comics are to tell stories in an interesting and artistic medium. Even the late, genius Will Eisner agreed that art was there to serve the story, not the other way around.

You could do worse than Will Eisner.

(edited to add: Don't be too hard on that random page of comic script up there; I just made it up on the fly as I wrote this post/article/thing. On the off chance that I start writing Superman after Richard Donner quits, I'll probably do a little better of a job.)

wordmonkey

03-09-2007, 08:26 PM

I really can't argue with any of what PeeDee said above.

I generally spend some time before I start writing the script, working with the artist on concepts. It's just a massive brainstorm session. I throw in all my ideas and the artists does the same. My key advice here is leave ego at the door - whatever is best for the project stays, no matter who came up with the idea.

One additional piece of advice I would offer is to remember the visual. If you are working with color, do a little research into color theory and write that into your script to emphasise mood or set a clue. You can work with your colorist on this, but if it's in the script, they know and will likely come to you and ask whatyou want. And if you have a colorist, USE him/her. I have a mini-series due out through Arcana later this year. There is a lot of stuff that I chatted with the colorist on that are visual hints at what is to come.

Also remember that you can specifically add things to the art. And you can do it a lot more subtly than you can in prose. I want to do a murder mystery and have it so that the murder weapon is in the room the whole time, I have to mention it in a description of the room, (unless I'm cheating) and then I've risked tipping my hand to the reader. In a comic book, I can make sure it's there and if I lay on a big description of everything else in the room, the reader doesn't know.

What I try for is to write visually and, if it's the case (like in a mystery) that when you get to the end of an arc, you can go back and re-read it and suddenly all the clues you missed before are obvious and you can enjoy it again. This sometimes means you have to start writing a plot arc at the end and work forward.

I'd add one last thing. Panel layout. I tend to write like PeeDee's example. Top of the page I set out the page layout (because, as I said, I've thumbnailed the page). Now if you have a great artist, they could well rework this (and I do tell all the artists I work with to completely throw out my panel layouts and even my description of a panel ifthey canmake it better), but I can't stress enough the need to think about the panel arrangement as you write. It is NOT just happenstance. You are guiding the reader through the story. And where in prose you might use short punchy sentences to kick up the pace, extra panels can do the same. And overlap dialog between scenes as a way to lead the reader from one scene-change to another.

There's a whole world of technical stuff beyond just telling the story, involved in telling a story in comicbooks and you ignore these at your peril.

Good enough is never good enough. If you wanna brea in, you have to better than what's out there - by a long way. And if you wanna stay out there when you get there, you have to keep improving.

This is turning into some kinda master class here.

We should charge admission, PeeDee.

PeeDee

03-09-2007, 08:47 PM

It'd be a Master Class if it were Alan Moore "in conversation" with Neil Gaiman and Joss Whedon on how to masterfully write comic scripts.... ;)

Wordmonkey's absolutely right about panel layout. In my above example, which as I pointed out was quick and sloppy, I give the 'gist' of the panels, and nothing more.

But do not just leave it up to chance. Panel placement is important. Panel placement can be the beat of your story, and you would do very well to pay attnetion to panels. They give you more benefits than they detriment you.

For example, in a comic, I could literally have three panels of the character staring around the room silently, and they go "beat - beat - beat - speech"

In writing, that beat lasts as long as it takes the reader to skip down the line from "He said nothing" down to "and then he said..."

On the other hand, in prose, I could say "There were two men in a park, one of them was black and one of them was white," and you would have no idea which one I meant. Harlan Ellison did that, and it worked wonderfully.

Some comics stick to the nine-panel page almost rigidly, and that's not always a bad thing. For one thing, it means that if you have fifty pages of nine-panel pages....and then suddenly have a two-page splash image, it's all the more effective.

Some superhero comics have splashes nearly every other page, and this isn't always useful. Pretty, sure, but not useful.

If every shot is a glory shot, then none of them are glory shots.

Dont' just mix up your panel shapes for variety, don't just change them around 'cause someone else did it. Change your panel shapes for a purpose, the same way you start a new paragraph in prose, so to speak.

AceTachyon

03-09-2007, 10:15 PM

Keep it up, sirs.

I'm takin' notes.

:popcorn:

wordmonkey

03-09-2007, 10:45 PM

It'd be a Master Class if it were Alan Moore "in conversation" with Neil Gaiman and Joss Whedon on how to masterfully write comic scripts.... ;)

Dude!

THEY don't know that we aren't.

I'm from England and married a US gal and now live over here. I COULD be Gaiman. You can tell 'em you're really JMS and your Avatar is a subtle clue.

They'd never know...

...oh...

...wait...

I probably shoulda PM'd this one.

PeeDee

03-09-2007, 10:50 PM

Can I be Garth Ennis instead? Then I only have to write six lines of comic script every month (and out of them, five of them are just swear words.)

:)

wordmonkey

03-10-2007, 01:27 AM

Can I be Garth Ennis instead?

This is America! You can be whoever you want to be!

Well, except me.

But that's mostly because there's isn't enough excitement for one of me. If I had to half it, to share with a second me, life just wouldn't be worth living.

PeeDee

03-10-2007, 04:52 AM

I couldn't manage being you. I can barely find my tea, for Pete's sake...

All right, what subject shall we talk abuot next? Pacing? that's a common newbie problem...

wordmonkey

03-10-2007, 05:50 AM

Pacing.

OK, now we're moving on to the advance part of our program.

And I think you have to split it into big league books and peewee league books. For the sake of this, I'm including minors in with the bigs.

I'll start with peewee. This is the kinda thing you do, POD and doesn't have adverts. This makes it easy. All you gotta worry about is aiming for page 22 and either winding up all the loose ends OR making a nice juicy cliff-hanger.

Now we touched on panel layout for pacing, but you can kinda break this up a little bit further. Lots of action, speeding up the pace, little panels, lots of panel, stacato pacing, all good, right? But I've also used those same small panels (I even wrote a script with 16 panels 4 x 4) to do the complete opposite and drag out a "waiting for the attack" scene.

Same goes for Splash Pages, or Double Page Spreads. One big picture, relative to that 16 panel page, it's a much faster read. But what if I load that SP or DPS with tons of background detail? And I mean specific detail to the plot, not just pretty pictures.

Now when it comes to dipping for the wire, on several occasions, I've actually started planning my book (with the thumbnails), gotten about halfway through, then jumped to the last page and planned that, then page 21, then 20, then 19 and even as far back as 18. Then gone back and joined the two points. This is one of the reason I use the thumbnails.

I always aim to do a change of scene on an EVEN page number. Reason is obvious. It's a page turn and a natural break. Think of it like a wipe edit in a movie.

And here is where we move to the big leagues. Books that sell advertising space.

No matter how I plan it, as soon as you throw adverts into the middle of a book, the page layout is screwed. Because if I write page 1, then do a DPS on 2 & 3, if there's an ad on page 4, MY page four is suddenly an ODD numbered page in the book. Remember, an average 22 page story is sold in a 32 page book. Ten pages to screw your pacing.

I sat in on a talk by a Marvel writer who aims to have a start, middle and end on EVERY page. I can't do that, but it's something I'm aiming for.

However, when you consider ALL of the above, you gotta remember that the artist can come in and change the pacing. I wrote a book that had a big splash page. It was big because it was the hero's grand entrance and a good chunk of the book had been leading to this point. It was gonna be an awesome spalsh. And then when I saw the pencils, he split the page into three vertical panels with the hero, full-on manly heroic pose, floating, the three panels behind him. Changed the entire dynamic of the page, but it worked. And it worked better than my idea.

PeeDee

03-10-2007, 06:01 AM

I'm just curious, what Marvel writer are you referring to? I can thnk of a couple that sounds like...

Ultimately, I don't worry about whihc page my pacing falls on, because as is pointed out, ads will screw it up. And if you somehow plan for ads (some comics used to, in the 90's) then it screws up again if it's collected into an ad-free graphic novel collection.

Pacing can be tricky, especially for new comic writers, who aren't used to the format. What I see happening, many times, is that they are worried they'll lose the reader, and thus they show every movement in a panel, and each character in a different panel, because they worry it won't make sense if two characters do two things and say different things all in the same panel.

And really, you won't lose them.

Pacing, in comics, is not the same at all as pacing in a novel. In a novel, it's the speed and flow of the story, but comics are a different instrument, in that they don't flow. You may be about to argue, but bear with me, they don't. A novel can flow the story from paragraph to paragraph, pag to page, a comic is split into panels, and that's to its benefit. It means you have a "Beat" between each panel. Think of a comic as a drum kit, instead of a trumpet. No long notes, just fast notes, slow notes, rapid-fire rolls on the snare, thumping of the bass, cymbal crashes. A drum kit is a perfect metaphor for a comic book.

Writing drums is different than writing trumpets, and it's important to know that while they both share similar traits -- and you can tell the story of one in the other format, usually) they are their own animals, and looking at them that way will help you out no end.

wordmonkey

03-10-2007, 07:03 AM

OK, I was going big picture and you went a little more subtle and I think we're moving away from pacing and into structure and (self) editing.

That said, what you say is again, bang on the money.

As you say, in prose, you write and you write everything that needs to be writen and no more. Think of that like a symphony.

With comics, it's often about what you DON'T write. Like PeeDee says, between each panel is a beat, but I don't think it's a "pause" kinda beat. Think of this like Jazz.

Go listen to the song from Porgy & Bess, "Summertime." Pick a version, something like a cast recording, or go for a Gershwin version. That's the novel. Now go listen to Miles Davis' version of Summertime. Davis picks out notes, the important ones - this is what you need to do.

Those beats, if you're doing your job right, will be filled in by the readers' imagination. Just like the listener fills in the blanks when listening to Davis.

This kinda leads into narrative drive. How do you lead the reader through your story, cutting across pages, scenes and even issues? How do you maintain a readers interest when it will be at least a month (maybe more) before they get to see the next installment?

wordmonkey

03-11-2007, 08:15 PM

PeeDee

03-11-2007, 10:03 PM

What? Nobody wants to take a run at that question?

The Marvel writer BTW, I forget his name, but he's been working on one of the Spidey titles. Man I am terrible with names. Faces, I remember faces. But names?

Joe Straczynski? Brian Michael Bendis? Those are the two big names on Spidey right now, at least, the ones I can remember. From what you're talking about, I was thinking Brian Bendis.

(and it is a good question that I will take a stab at, but I haven't had the time to write an article on it yet... sorry. :) )

wordmonkey

03-11-2007, 10:20 PM

Paul jenkins.

You would think I'd remember that. He wrote a book for Image which has the same basic idea as one I did for Viper.

PeeDee

03-12-2007, 03:23 AM

Back to comic scripts.

My default method of writing a script is pretty basic. Here's a rough idea:

...

PAGE ONE (nine panels): Three panels on top, one long strip panel, three panels below, two panels below that.

PANEL ONE: A shot of our man walking down the street, hands in his pockets.

NO TEXT.

PANEL TWO: A shot of our man, same as before, but shadowed heavily.

TEXT (People shouting, off-panel): Oh my God! What's THAT!? Look out!

PANEL THREE: Our man looks up, startled.

CLARK(thought): This is how you know the day's going badly.

PANEL FOUR: A robot lands on top of CLARK KENT, scattering bits of road and cars all around it in a heavy, heavy shock wave. We see a bit of John's hand and foot sticking up in the panel, out from under the robot's big feet.

PANEL FIVE: Complete blackness.

CAPTION: "That really hurts. I don't care how invincible you are, big robot landing on top of you equals pain."

PANEL SIX: A side shot of the robot's big leg. It's raised up out of the hole in the ground, CLARK's hands pushing it up. His skin is intact, his sleeves are tattered and filthy.

CAPTION: "And honestly, a big robot? Who wakes up and thinks 'golly, today I will build a big robot, what a great idea.' Seriously?"

PANEL SEVEN: CLARK sitting all the way up, arms over his head, still holding up the robot foot. His teeth are clenched. He's filthy and his clothes are shredded and dirty, but his skin is intact.

CAPTION: "If that's how they think, I don't know why I even need to stop the bad guys and save the world. They aren't getting out their front doors this way."

PANEL EIGHT: A shot from behind CLARK, who is now standing up in the hole. His arms are back, he's just flung the robot off him and despite being six stories tall, it's gone sailing away from him.

CAPTION: "Still, I don't get on the front page of papers by looking good in tights, which is a shame."

PANEL EIGHT: A shot of CLARK'S chest, where he's just ripped open his tattered shirt and jacket, to reveal the SUPERMAN uniform underneath.

CAPTAIN: "Guess I'd better get on with it."

Now, you're probably wondering why i've just quoted myself.

After posting my example page of script, I went and dropped an e-mail to the artist I'm currently happily working with. I sent him the one-page of Superman script and asked him if he wouldn't mind drawing it up.

The point being, so you can see the translation between what's a fairly basic page of comic script, to a rough sketch of the comic page itself.

His name is Chris Saar and he did, as he does every time, a damn good job.

Here's the sketch.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a299/peedee1284/supermansketch.jpg

wordmonkey

03-12-2007, 04:56 AM

Now, you're probably wondering why i've just quoted myself.

I was.

Couple of interesting things about this.

First off, when I read the script, I imagined that the robot had fallen on Clark. So seeing what the artist draws as a very deliberate STOMP is something to consider. the way you write and imagine, might not be what the artist sees and draws and, if you're working on something other than your own project, it might not be how the editor who approves the script before it's passed on to the artist, imagines it.

Of course, I could have just misread it, but the point is the same. Don't get locked into one ideaof how a page should be.

Second. There could well be someone looking at that artist's version and thinking, "Man that looks rough!"

And it does. If that were all there were to it. But this is a thumbnail. It's a test to see how the page dynamic plays out. This is the test version. Does the script translate to the art? Is there a better way to represent the action? Is there room for all the dialog?

That first long wide panel is difficult to pull off, because it requires height and the panel doesn't have it, so you need to rotate, but if you rotate too far it's a mess, because unlike a Playdude center-fold, you really DON'T want to have to turn a comicbook 90 degrees to check out a panel. If this didn't work, then we'd need to sit down again and rethink the script. But it's better to discover that NOW than if our artist had simply started doing the really polished version.

(NOTE TO ASPIRING WRITERS - If your artist doesn't do thumbnails, odds are, they are either awesomely talented OR they don't really know what they are doing. You can probably guess which is the more likely of those two scenarios.)

The artist breaks out of the confines of the panel as well, which adds to the dynamic of that panel. It simply can't contain all the action.

Once this gets the go-ahead, our friendly neighborhood penciler will get out the Bristol Board, maybe the color-safe blue pencil, and start working on the real pages.

PeeDee

03-12-2007, 07:38 AM

I was.

Couple of interesting things about this.

First off, when I read the script, I imagined that the robot had fallen on Clark. So seeing what the artist draws as a very deliberate STOMP is something to consider. the way you write and imagine, might not be what the artist sees and draws and, if you're working on something other than your own project, it might not be how the editor who approves the script before it's passed on to the artist, imagines it.

I also imagined it as the robot accidentally stepping on Clark. The robot is stamping through Metropolis, it crushes a citizen impassively....but that citizen is the last son of Krypton, who throws him away.

BUT, if I got this thumbnail, I would rethink the entire script based around the fact that the robot STOMPED on Clark maliciously. What does this mean? Does the robot know that he's Superman? Moreover, what about the crowds who, panicked or not, did see him pick up and throw a robot? How does this affect things?

AND...if this were real, he would have more than just one page at a time, and I would have told him the story already. So if the robot passively stomped on Clark, he would have understood that from the rest of the script and my storyline synopsis. But as it was, all I gave him was one page of script and nothing else.

Of course, I could have just misread it, but the point is the same. Don't get locked into one ideaof how a page should be.

Second. There could well be someone looking at that artist's version and thinking, "Man that looks rough!"

And it does. If that were all there were to it. But this is a thumbnail. It's a test to see how the page dynamic plays out. This is the test version. Does the script translate to the art? Is there a better way to represent the action? Is there room for all the dialog?

Exactly, and Roughs are vitally important. It tells me if the shot works, or if it botches an emotion. It tells me if what I wrote actually beats out well, or if I've made it too fast, or too slow, or it doesn't flow smoothly from one panel to another.

One thing that Archie comics and Sonic the Hedgehog comics (weird mixture; bear with me) did when I was a kid was, on action pages, they would have arrows going from panel to panel, to make sure you read the right order.

You shouldn't have to do that. You don't have to stick to a set layout, you can have panels moving differently around the page, but the reader should flow between 'em without arrows, you see.

AND it tells me: do I have too much dialogue in a panel? Do I have too many panels without dialogue? Do the panels get the point across?

That first long wide panel is difficult to pull off, because it requires height and the panel doesn't have it, so you need to rotate, but if you rotate too far it's a mess, because unlike a Playdude center-fold, you really DON'T want to have to turn a comicbook 90 degrees to check out a panel. If this didn't work, then we'd need to sit down again and rethink the script. But it's better to discover that NOW than if our artist had simply started doing the really polished version.

This is a fascinating point that I wanted to make too. When I envisioned the panel, I pictured just a level shot of the ground, as if the camera were still looking right-on at Clark, just from lower. We see the foot coming down, and maybe Clark's hand sticking out. That's why I talked about cars flying. Because I was thinking we'd bee able to see straight on down the street.

BUT, he did it differently, (and in his e-mail, he confessed he didn't know what I meant by flying cars, and so he did flying people) and I think he did it better. AND, the fact that he broke out of the panel works extremely well.

But what if it wasn't better? What if it completely blew the point I was trying to make, or ruined the tone I was trying to set? Then this would be where we find out and correct it, when the page consists of some nicely-done scribbly bits and not heavy inking and completed drawings.

(NOTE TO ASPIRING WRITERS - If your artist doesn't do thumbnails, odds are, they are either awesomely talented OR they don't really know what they are doing. You can probably guess which is the more likely of those two scenarios.)

Even if the artist is awesomely talented, even if you're working with Jim Lee (when he's on deadline) or Todd McFarlane (before he was an asshole) then do your thumbnails. Insist on it. Because it's not only telling you if the ARTIST has a problem, it's telling if YOU have a problem. This is the best, best way to check your script and see how it's flowing. If you have the artistic ability, do them yourself, I guess, but I would rather your artist do them. It helps to build your working relationship, it helps get you on the same visual page if you aren't already, and it means that if things need to be changed, you and the artist can argue about it and change it before too much work has been done. That helps keep tempers cool and egos down.

The artist breaks out of the confines of the panel as well, which adds to the dynamic of that panel. It simply can't contain all the action.

Exactly. And it's something I didn't mention in my script, and the artist did it anyway. If I didn't already know that Chris Saar and I were extremely well-meshed (and I do; visually, we are dead center with each other) this would be the sort of detail that gives it away. This is the sort of important thing to look for.

I didn't tell him to break out of the panel, didn't think of it at all. But after seeing it done, I realize that it's better than what I meant. It serves the comic much better, and I can't imagine NOT having it, now that it exists. That's a good thing. You don't really want an artist who does nothing but copies you, it's good when the artist shows you what you meant, sometimes better than you did. You're a team, after all, not a leader and a follower.

Once this gets the go-ahead, our friendly neighborhood penciler will get out the Bristol Board, maybe the color-safe blue pencil, and start working on the real pages.

And while he's doing that, I'd be off writing more comic script. Which is, in fact, what I'm doing. Chris Saar and I are working on a one-off comic issue. After seeing his superman page come back, I happily went back to work on the one-off issue, though I'd stopped for a couple of days. It reminded me that we work well together, that it's amazing fun, and....er....that I'm over deadline, but nevermind that...

I think this is a really useful thing for this thread (actually, I just think this is a damned useful thread) in that it's important to know how your script translates, what to fight for and what not to fight for.

Plus, there's a thrill of giving the script to someone who gives you back not only what you wrote, but what you meant that's undiscribeable, and one of the reasons why I keep working on comics, even though I could probably get richer and have less stress if I picked my nose on a streetcorner for money.

This is a good thread, wordmonkey, even if we're the only two reading and replying..... :)

Snitchcat

03-12-2007, 02:30 PM

What a great insight into the creation of comics. I already had some basic knowledge, but I find the differences between Western and Eastern (what I know of it) comics creation fascinating.

Thanks, PeeDee, Wordmonkey.

Stacia Kane

03-12-2007, 04:02 PM

PeeDee

03-12-2007, 06:33 PM

No, you aren't the only ones reading this thread!

I was told, though, that most writers try to get one scene per page, or at least end each page at a natural break--a dramatic statement, an ultimatum, a question, whatever. That this was a good guideline to make sure your pacing is on target, and while it wasn't possible every page it was something to shoot for.

I think that, if it doesn't damage the tone and rhythm of your comic (which, most of the time, I just don't see doing (there's nothing at all wrong with working like this. I mean, it's not like you're ending each page on a super-dramatic cliffhanger, you're just quietly leading from one page to another.

Sometimes, it's more subtle than anything. I've got Neil Gaiman's Sandman: The Doll's House on my lap right now, and I opened to a random page. At first glance, there doesn't seem to be any 'ending' to each page, they just flow naturally together.

The reason for this is that it's so subtle and well-done. Each page, or most of them, do indeed end with some kind of 'moment.' Even if it's nothing grander than the scene ending and the next scene beginning.

So, yeah, I don't see it as a bad idea at all.

wordmonkey

03-12-2007, 07:05 PM

Welcome back to the PeeDee and Wordmonkey mutual appreciation show!

First off, a couple of viewer questions we need to answer.

East vs. West. I don't know that really there is any difference in the way you would tell the story. I don't tend to read a lot of manga, but the principles are the same. It's visual storytelling and the rules/suggestions we've thus far discussed all apply.

Next. Scene-a-page. Your average sitcom on TV lasts about 22 minutes (when you've taken out the ad-breaks). The viewers head would be spinning if you made a scene cut every minute. However, the end of page scene cut is the way to go. And like I say, I TRY and go for scene cuts on the page turn, but you can't guarantee that with ads. The plus side is that ad placement CAN provide that extended break between scenes. The down side is you have no idea if or when they wil be placed in the book.

OK, so now I'm gonna address the hook. I'm gonna do it since m' colleague seems to be afraid to tackle it.

That's right, PeeDee. I'm calling you out! You heard me, bub. Afraid.

Obviously there needs to be a hook or cliffhanger ending to issues within an arc. If you're writing a four part arc, you want to make sure that readers who start the story stay with you. Now personally, I don't like to make these hangers REALLY in-your-face, obvious hooks. I want you to come back, but I don't want you to think I am manipulating you with a gun to the puppy's head every issue. It's a delicate balancing act.

Now sometimes I do want to end an issue with the hero facing death. Othertimes it needs to be amore subtle hook. Just leave some questions floating there and one specific question at the end of the issue - like who was Commissioner Gordon taking to on the phone about taking down Batman? And what did we miss at the start of that conversation we just caught the end of?

This brings me to the next part. For my money, you need to have a masterplan. And this can be hard if you're just starting out a comic series. It is also maybe something you don't need in a graphic novel (unless you plan to make your graphic novel a part of a series of graphic novels). The easiest example of this isn't actually a comicbook, but a TV series. And one I suspect m' colleague is VERY familiar with.

Babylon 5.

Maybe by about halfway through season three and all the way through season four you really needed to watch each episode. But prior to that it was a standard episodic TV show. You could watch an episode, skip an episode, and you could still enjoy the show. BUT, if you watched them, there were subtle little throw-away moments, little character development scenes that were rich and nice and really got you into the characters, the series, the universe, the show. Andthen as the major arc reveals itself, if you go back and watch the shows again, suddenly those little moments were ALL hooks for the big arc. Additionally, they were hooks for the series as a whole. The invested me in the series and the characters as well as leaving to meet up with friends the next day and ask, "What did you think THAT meant."

Did that make sense?

Summing it up, I think you need to have a big arc in mind, but you need to have real characters who have a life OUTSIDE the plots. But really, that isn't anything different from ANY form of writing.

Another analogy I like to use is the soap opera element. A good (if there is one) soap opera has you invested in the characters. Regardless of the setting and backgrounds, the basics are the same. Character rules. And in comics, don't mistake character for a costume, or a special power.

PeeDee

03-12-2007, 07:20 PM

I'm not afraid to tackle it! I just got distracted by giving you guys art! Look at the art!

Sheesh.

Babylon 5 is a pretty good example, and it's the one I would've used. Babylon 5 heavily influenced my way of writing, in comics and in everything else.

I think that mostly, if you have a compelling story that you keep going at an interesting pace but that doesn't conclude at the end of the issue, then you've got yourself a natural hook into the next storyline. If the story is enough that the reader really needs to know what happens next, then they'll buy your next issue.

Self-compelled is better, in that it doesn't involve me, the writer, artificially getting them excited about the storyline. Because if I do that, and then a month passes between issues (as it tends to), then the excitement will fade and maybe they won't be so interested.

Whereas, a month-or-so passed between issues of Sandman, and I went ballistic waiting for it. Nevermind when I was following The death of Superman arc, or Knightfall in the Batman comics. You could have stopped mid-sentence and I would have come back for more.

wordmonkey

03-12-2007, 07:39 PM

I'm not afraid to tackle it! I just got distracted by giving you guys art! Look at the art!

Sheesh.

DUDE!

Work with me here, I'm trying to build a little tension. Make 'em think there's some friction here, get the viewers clicking in to see what we fight about next! They don't have to know that we seem to agree on most of this.

I think that mostly, if you have a compelling story that you keep going at an interesting pace but that doesn't conclude at the end of the issue, then you've got yourself a natural hook into the next storyline. If the story is enough that the reader really needs to know what happens next, then they'll buy your next issue.

Which I think comes from characters.

Self-compelled is better, in that it doesn't involve me, the writer, artificially getting them excited about the storyline. Because if I do that, and then a month passes between issues (as it tends to), then the excitement will fade and maybe they won't be so interested.

But what makes the reader compelled? I think it comes down to crafting a whole product. Characters, concept, cool plot, great art. All are important, but you need ALL. Only one and you are looking at a dud.

Whereas, a month-or-so passed between issues of Sandman, and I went ballistic waiting for it. Nevermind when I was following The death of Superman arc, or Knightfall in the Batman comics. You could have stopped mid-sentence and I would have come back for more.

So, this might be a side-bar of sorts, though I think looking at a real world example can help. What's the difference between The Death of Superman, or Knightfall and the recent assassination of Captain America? Death of Superman was a massive media event and the whole Knightfall even had maybe a year lead-up. Those were events. The Death of Cap is coming off with a much more "Blah" reaction.

Is it the writing? Is it burnout after Civil War? Is Cap just a weaker (in a literary sense) character? Is it the lack of heroic death (Supes fought himself to death to stop Doomsday - Bats was worn down by an onslaught of villains one after the other then topped by Bane - Cap is shot by a sniper)?

Cap's writer has a good reputation. Batman had the massive lead-up (a la Civil War). Cap did die saving an innocent. What's the difference?

AceTachyon

03-12-2007, 07:57 PM

Good stuff, you two. Keep it up.

We lurkers are taking copious notes.

PeeDee

03-12-2007, 07:59 PM

I don't know if looking at Knightfall or Death Of Superman are worthwhile, in any case, because of the huge hype that built them up.

When I was younger, I hardly followed the media, I just read the comics. So I didn't know that Superman was going to die at all. Not even a little. But I knew that Doomsday was the nastiest bad guy I'd ever seen, I was scared of him at the time...and then he and Superman fought to a standstill, and neither one got up again.

It had a big effect on me.

Knightfall was somewhat the same way, though less so. The buildup to Knightfall, with Bane, didn't impress me so much when I was younger, although the actual moment of Bane defeating Batman was very impressive. The fact that both events happened so close to each other made me one screwed up guy for a while... :)

Civil War, though, ending in Captain America's death is a whole 'nother thing for me. Instead of being a focused storyline, like Knightfall, it's more of a scattershot story done across the whole of the Marvel Universe, rather like Infinite Crisis. I have tried dozens of times and have completely failed to find anything compelling in any of the Infinite Crisis books, at any point./

What Superman and Batman's events had was focus, something that Civil War lacked. I don't generally like universe-wide "events," and while it did alarm and depress me to see Captain America shot -- because, like Superman and Green Lantern, I grew up very fond of Captain America -- it didn't affect me the same way. Whether because of age, or because I knew it was coming, I don't know.

...but I think it's age. At a certain point, you stop believing in Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy, and the death of super-heroes. Now, Captain America can die, so can Hal Jordan, and while I can enjoy the storyline and have a shade of emotion, it's not the same world-altering effect that I got from Superman.

AzBobby

03-13-2007, 01:05 AM

I have a lot of catching up to do on this string. Looks fascinating.

Someone mentioned the Dark Horse comic script format -- sounded useful so I went hunting for it. Went to http://www.darkhorse.com and found this under writer's guidelines: http://www.darkhorse.com/company/scriptguide.pdf

wordmonkey

03-13-2007, 01:46 AM

Comparing the deaths/destructions of the heroes was really more of a side-bar. And I think you have something, PeeDee. I suspect that for kids reading Cap now, his "death" could well have a similar effect to the way you felt about Supes. But with age and cynicism it's less of an event.

I would also argue that as we are now working in and around that field, our analysis is more harsh. Whenever you see the little man behind the curtain, the all powerful Oz never quite looks the same again.

OK, back to the real meat of this thread. Dialog. Wanna take that and run, PeeDee?

Or are ya scared of that, too? Yeah, you heard me! I said...

oh, hang on...

Didn't work last time I tried it.

Right then... Dialog. PeeDee - batter up.

PeeDee

03-13-2007, 10:05 AM

A Dialogue about Dialog.

Dialog for comic books works mostly by the same very basic rules as regular prose, but it differs wildly enough that it really is worth looking at closely.

The biggest difference is space, and how that changes what you have to work with.

With a novel, or a short story, you can let your dialogue run freely. In fact, that's one of the joys of a really wonderful story, easy-flowing dialog done well. It can effortlessly move you through a good book. Elmore Leonard is a master of it, so is Terry Pratchett, and so is Stephen King. Dialog is very important.

In comics, although it's also very important, you are better to take your dialog (and exposition, and caption) cues not from prose, but from journalism.

This isn't to say you should write your dialog to sound like a newspaper article. Perish the thought. But what you have to understand is with prose, if I have a lot of talking to do, I can do it. I fail if I make it just long paragraphs of unending talking instead of an interesting conversation, but I can still do it.

With comics, I have 24-pages. If that. Maybe I only have 12? Maybe I have 32? Regardless, unless you've got some gumption with your publisher, or you have a nice publisher, you have a select number of pages to fill.

In filling those pages, you have to tell your story, you have to have comfortable dialog that gets across character and emotion and moves the story along (because dialog, more than anything, advances the story). You have to make sure you don't run on too long, because as much as I love good storytelling and dialog, if all I get are 24 pages of talking heads, I've failed to write properly, and I will let down the reader.

Easy, huh?

Actually, it's not so bad. Think of it as a short story with a word limit, rather than a novel where you can wax poetic if the mood strikes you.

I think Joss Whedon is the current champ of comic book dialog, in that he captures characters perfectly with a minimum of words. Brian Michael Bendis is occasionally very good at it. Most especially in his early days on the Ultimate Spider-Man run, he did a magnificent job.

A MINIMUM of words is important. Comic books, good comic books, are frequently about minimizing things in both the writing and the art, rather than maximizing things.

We can also remember some of those really crummy early nineties (and eighties, come to think of it) comics where every page was FULL of SHOUTING heroes WHO WERE in BATTLE!!!!!! and every other page was a splash, and mostly you had men and women in tight costumes looking very alarmed at things.

With comics, as with good prose, less is really more. I've said it before, young writers spend so much time in their early career learning not how to write, but how to shut up and tell the story. God knows, it's a lesson I wish I'd learned faster.

But it's true. You use a minimum of words (exactly the ones you need, no more) and an economy of pictures (make the pictures work, without exploding messily all over your comic) and you will achieve more than you would with a comic full of splash pages.

...

Dialog is sometimes, in comics, most effective when it's not used. In regular prose, I can easily say He looked away and said nothing, and if I've told my story right, it has a good effect.

But, and here I think the advantage is the comics, I can have a panel where he looks away and says nothing, and I have that BEAT of silence while you read to the next panel. If the artist does his job, then I've not only conveyed that he's looked away and said nothing, but you can see the expression on his face a little. Is he in pain? Is it showing? Does he just look grim? Maybe he looks sad?

Dialog in comics -- and, really, in prose -- is not about accurately transcribing what people say and sound like in real life (or you'd have a lot of dialog exchanges full of "er," "um," "uh," "y'know,") but is more about expressing the idea of conversation in real life. Of making Ultimate Spider-Man and Peter Parker sound like the idea of a young and timid and hopeful teenager, without actually giving us a word-by-word rundown of what it was like to be a young and timid and hopeful teenager.

Good art (be it prose, be it paint) starts on the page, and finishes in the reader's mind.

wordmonkey

03-13-2007, 06:01 PM

I think it's in the Dark Horse guide, there's a recommenation for how much dialog to place in a balloon and how much to place in a panel. A danger there is that you stick to it. Don't get me wrong, the advice there (and I'm sure it appears in variations, in other places) is good, but you have to judge each panel in its own context. It takes a while to balance the space vs. bubble ratio.

However, what I think is the real danger, because you're constantly editing yourself down, is the chance of suddenly needing an info dump. A "butler & maid scene," or as The Incredibles call it, having a character "monolog." The risk is that you are very careful with your writing, being spartan and precise, then you get to page 18 and you realize that no-one, beyond yourself, knows why Professor Evil is actually so offended by all things Captain Hero. In your creation of the characters and plot you had all the psychological motivations and backstory worked out, but you pruned it down and now it doesn't make sense. Not without Professor Evil "monologging."

I'd actually suggest that rather than a short story, you think of it like a short screenplay. The journalist idea is also a good one. I forget the movie, but it's an old Clark Cable one where he's a fast talking newsman and he slams an aspiring journo for liking words to much. He says something like, "A journalist should hate words and use as few as possible to tell his story." A bit extreme, but you get the idea.

WOW, this is clearly too early in the morning for me to be doing this, since it's coming off to me as a mess. I hope you're getting the gist of this at least.

One final thing. Remember that you can use the dialog bubbles to add to the emphasis of your dialog. A la:

Doctor Evil: (Electric)
BWAH HA HA HA HA HAR!

Captain Hero:
Not so fast, Doctor Evil!

Doctor Evil: (Big Bubble - Small Letters)
...damn...

This, in the script, can also give your artist ideas on what expressions to draw on the faces.

One final thing, remember that the arrangement on the page of dialog needs to fit in with what's happening in the panel. In the above example, Dr Evil goes through two different emotion and you'd need to make sure that they were in different panels.

One final, final thing. Remember that when you're writing in Special Effect Sounds, they need to fit into the flow of scene/dialog. When your letterer starts work s/he will follow this.

PANEL 1
Captain Hero drops through the skylight and slaps Dr. Evil.

Captain Hero:
Stop right there, Dr. Evil!

SFX:
KER-ASSSSSSH!

SFX:
THUNK!

SFX:
SMAK!

Doesn't make sense. As written, the flow of that scene is Cap H talks, then smashes through the skylight, lands and slaps. Better would be...

PANEL 1
Captain Hero drops through the skylight and slaps Dr. Evil.

SFX:
KER-ASSSSSSH!

Captain Hero:
Stop right there, Dr. Evil!

SFX:
THUNK!

SFX:
SMAK!

Better still would be...

PANEL 1
Captain Hero drops through the skylight.

SFX:
KER-ASSSSSSH!

Captain Hero:
Stop right there, Dr. Evil!

PANEL 2
Captain Hero lands, springs forward and slaps Dr. Evil.

SFX:
THUNK!

SFX:
SMAK!

Dr. Evil:
OOOF!

Best of all would be...

PANEL 1
Captain Hero drops through the skylight.

SFX:
KER-ASSSSSSH!

Captain Hero:
Stop right there, Dr. Evil!

PANEL 2
Having landed, Captain Hero springs forward and slaps Dr. Evil.

SFX:
SMAK!

Dr. Evil:
OOOF!

With the last example, you'll notice I skipped the part where Cap H lands. That fits into the panel break. I wrote that Cap H is heading towards the ground, the reader can imagine that part of the scene, so I can skip to the next, important part of the story. If there was something important to that landing, like Cap H lands on a pressure pad that will summon Prof E's henchmen, or he lands heavily on an ankle, I include it, if not, cut it.

Some of the above is kinda obvious. Some of it's the same as for ANY form of writing. Some is specific to comics.

Now I'm going back to bed for an hour. I may make more sense later.

wordmonkey

03-14-2007, 12:09 AM

Just in case you haven't been put off trying to crack comic-books, and you're still up for joining us on our Quixotic adventure, here's another little kink for you.

You find an artist, they do some concept work and it's all rolling.

And the artist bails on you.

So you start looking again, and amazingly you find another artist who is even better. S/he does some concepts then some roughs, then some finished sequentials. Then s/he disappears. You track 'em down and they apologise and get back on the roll. Then disappear again before sending you an email where they bail on your project.

This has happened to me. And the kicker is, I have a publisher interested in the book if I can only get the artist.

Fun, eh?

PeeDee

03-14-2007, 12:15 AM

It hasn't happened to me, but my relationships wiht artists tend to be fairly friendly things. (Not saying yours aren't, I'm just saying) art gets discussed in its due time, scripts go one way and art comes the other way, but mostly we're just friendly-like. I'm not saying you should instantly be best buddies with all your artists, or anything, because that's impossible. It's just why I've never had the problem.

(that wasn't mcuh help....)

If it helps any, I know another writer who was working wiht an artist on an idea. The artist vanished, and then reappeared....at Marvel, where he was trying to sell the idea as his very own. Right up until the writer made noise about it, adn then he just vanished again.

That's human beings for you. :)

wordmonkey

03-14-2007, 01:22 AM

I may have misunderstood here, PeeDee, so ignore this if it doesn't apply.

I'm actively pushing the comic writing. Trying to get books rolling and as a result, I think I'm maybe going after artists a little more aggressively. I show up with a pitch and an invitation to work on something that I'll then go all out to find a publisher for.

As such, I tend to meet artists via their art, rather than chatting over a beer.

That said, I try and work the relationship with an artist to be as friendly as possible and once I get an artist on board, I am ALWAYS avaialble to make their job as easy as possible.

My attitude is that since this is a collaborative business, if I get any degree of success or longevity in the industry, I'll work with lots of creatives. Since you never know who you'll be working with next, I try to be as nice and easy and professional to work with, so my reputation reflects that. And even as I've been let down, my parting comment will always be "Thanks for the work you did and good luck with your future projects."

You never know what position they might be in at some point.

Even if I have no intention of commissioning that person again.

PeeDee

03-14-2007, 01:27 AM

I wasn't disagreeing with you, in that you're probably going after an artist in exactly the right and professional manner.

It should be emphasized that although I am currently (at this moment) working in comics and have done so before, I wasn't actively trying to. Thus, I wasnt hunting an artist with a portfolio and business plans. I was working on something else, it involved an artist, the artist and I clicked almost exactly, comic work was offered, I said yes, he said yes, and bam.

Waiting around for THAT to actually happen is a long wait for a train don't come, let me tell you. :)

wordmonkey

03-14-2007, 02:41 AM

OK, that's what I thought your situation was.

And just to be clear, I wasn't getting prickly. Me prickly is, "SHUT UP OR I"LL PULL YOU LUNGS DOWN YOUR NOSE AND USE 'EM LIKE PUNCH BAGS!"

You really don't wanna be around me when I move from prickly to really-quite-irked.

Anyways, since as you say, the odds of something coming together like you are working are are so incredibly rare, I thought it might be of benefit to explain how I do go about working with an artist. I think it's entirely in the scope of this thread anyway and would have likely gotten to it if I hadn't been dumped today.

PeeDee

03-14-2007, 02:48 AM

Anyways, since as you say, the odds of something coming together like you are working are are so incredibly rare, I thought it might be of benefit to explain how I do go about working with an artist. I think it's entirely in the scope of this thread anyway and would have likely gotten to it if I hadn't been dumped today.

By all means, walk through How To Get and Keep An Artist. I'd discuss it, but I have no experience there at all. I've never actually gone after an artist. I work directly with the publishers, or an editor puts us together, or some such like that.

wordmonkey

03-14-2007, 03:08 AM

Artist: Proper care and maintenance.

OK, I too have just been paired up with an artist. In that situation, the editor usually wants to be involved in all creative decisions. Depending on the editor, this can be a drea or a nightmare. There are editors who believe that to do their job the MUST edit, and if they can't find anything that needs an edit, they will make something need an edit.

I've been fortunate that pretty much all the editors I have worked with have given me complete freedom. In such situations it is easy to tell when you are dropping the ball, because they will only tell you to change something in that situation.

(I also think we should address editors, but I'll leave that for PeeDee to lead and I'll just add points as they occur.)

I've basically already said how I like to work with an artist. I REALLY like to be hands on and just have as big a brainstorm session as I can. I like to do this BEFORE I start working on the script. This is MY thumbnailing. I'll give the artist my ideas for the characters, the scenery, the tone and then let the artist come up with concepts.

I will also throw scene ideas at the artist at this point. I do this for two reasons. One, it gives the artist a heads-up as to what they have to think about and what I am gonna be eventually throwing at them. Secondly, by me saying these ideas "aloud" I get a feel for them and it also allows the artist to say, "Yeah, about that scene... IT SUCKS!"

Now aside from the creative bump you get from that, I DEMAND, and I really do mean DEMAND that any artist I work with tell me if I come up with something sucky, or they see a gaping plot hole, or anything that is hinky. You MUST have that kinda open and completely honest relationship to get the best result, in my opinion. When artists shut down on me, they are always the ones who flake out. The ones who give me the hardest time are the ones who will work with me and keep me honest.

When it comes to the artist taking over, the roughs usually run alongside a converstation as the pages evolve and we refine and polish the way the pages will look. Again, as I said before, the artist MUST feel free to do something the way they like andnot just what I wrote in the script. As they pull the visual, they dictate the way it looks.

Once roughs are done and we're both happy, I tend to leave the artist alone and let them work. If I start throwing in my two cents at this point, I'm just being annoying. If something really needs changing, I'll step in,and the artist, for my money, still has the option to tweak the look if a finished page seems to be growing in a different direction. But if at all possible, I let 'em be.

In all the pages of comic books I have written so far, only one page has ever been filtered through an artist and come out EXACTLY like I imagined it would.

Depending on the artist, what they want, what they bring and how the project evolves, I will also give them a co-creator credit as well.

wordmonkey

03-14-2007, 03:15 AM

Oh yes. You may be lurking, but I see you.

Yes you.

Uh-huh, I do mean YOU.

I suppose I should checked with PeeDee before I posted this, but any lurkers out there reading this, please feel free to post questions. I know that we are going into some stuff in a very light way, so if you wanna ask a specific question, just post it here.

PeeDee would love to answer them all.

I'll be around too if he needs help with the heavy lifting. :popcorn:

PeeDee

03-14-2007, 03:19 AM

I don't know nothin'.

wordmonkey

03-14-2007, 07:13 AM

I don't know nothin'.

Oh PSHWAH!

You don't get asked to do the job if you know nothing.

And I think running back through this thread alone shows what you know.

There now. See? I can be nice.

Just don't tell the monkey I said that.

PeeDee

03-14-2007, 11:02 AM

Well, I'll do what I do on AW, which is if someone asks a question, I'll answer it best as I can.

Or lie. I might just lie, too. :D

wordmonkey

03-14-2007, 06:58 PM

Well, I'll do what I do on AW, which is if someone asks a question, I'll answer it best as I can.

Or lie. I might just lie, too. :D

Dude, if they're coming to US for advice, they clearly don't have a clue. We can lie our hearts out and no one will ever know.

BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HAR!

I should point out that I had my knees slightly bent, arms raised to the skys and my head thrown back in malicious glee as I bwah ha ha'd there.

OK, evil tyrannical moment over.

Tell us about editors, PeeDee. Tell us, do!

PeeDee

03-15-2007, 02:31 AM

....editors....er....

....sometimes, when one of my editors has had a few Guinness, he paypals me money. :)

Honestly, I can talk about writing and even working with an artist, but the more mechanical information -- getting an artist/editor, stuff like that -- I'm no good at, because I have so little experience with it.

wordmonkey

03-15-2007, 07:07 AM

No worries, dude.

I'll see what I can come up with.

dclary

03-16-2007, 02:42 PM

I'd just like to point out that this is an outstanding thread.

wordmonkey

03-16-2007, 06:19 PM

I'd just like to point out that this is an outstanding thread.

Fortunately PeeDee and I swore to use our powers ONLY for good.

...er...

Well, I did anyway.

wordmonkey

03-16-2007, 06:45 PM

OK, here we go on Editors.

First thing to remember is that an Editor on a comic is not like an editor on a prose book. Yes, they will be copy-editing (looking for typos and the like) and they will also be editing for plot-holes and continuity too. BUT, they are also editing the art (does this panel work, should we change that page layout); then inking (that line is too heavy, this area needs less black); then color (should this character be orange?); and finally lettering (can we move this bubble here?).

Depending on the story and who owns the "property" you may also find that the editor is involved in actually plotting and directing the flow of the project. If you're working on a book for one of the big two, and you're lucky enough to work on a character with multiple titles (Spider-man, Batman, etc) they may know things that are gonna happen in the other titles that make your plot impossible - or they want a specific three part arc to tie into to something specific). Even on less characters you may find that cross-over plots like "Civil War" or "52" impact your story (the death of Cap was planned BEFORE "Civil War" but had to be postponed until after).

AND they are likely working on multiple titles. OK, a regular editor may do that, but look at all of the above, and then remember that happens on every book they edit. It's a big job.

Now for me, writing, the best kind of editor is like the best kind of movie soundtrack. You don't know it's there.

You WILL find editors who NEED to edit. Not because your work needs editing, but because they feel it's their job to find something wrong to set right. That can be annoying, but my general take here is that if they are nit-picking, I can't be doing much wrong and if the changes they want are small, I'll make them. If they are big changes, I will argue and fight for what I think is right, and demand the same reasoning I use. If the editor wants a big change, I want it justified by them in the same why I justify all my decisions. If they can't, they really can't argue.

Of course, this assumes a level of reasonability (is that a real word) on the part of the editor. Sometimes (and I have encountered this specific event) the editor actually brings you in to work on their project. They have nursed the idea for a long time and have it all mentally set in stone. That can be a real fight to make changes. Usually they will give, but only so far, and eventually they feel the need to keep SOMETHING the way it was. In that situation, I tend to say "OK, we'll do it your way." Then I go away, write the script EXACTLY how I wanted, then send it back. If it dosn't show them immediately that I was right, it casts enough doubt that we discuss it again and they aren't so inflexable.

On indie books, the best thing about an editor is that they're usually the publisher or at least the "head" of the studio. This means they will be the ones dealing with finding the rest of the creative team, submissions, printers and all the important stuff you NEED, but are just as massive pain in the a$$ to deal with.

Stacia Kane

03-16-2007, 09:32 PM

PeeDee

03-16-2007, 09:37 PM

Do you feel that, because of the extra work involved, an editor nurtures a project more than an editor might for a novel? Like, they might keep working at a story to get it right, because they love the concept or characters, whereas with a novel if something isn't right they'll just reject it?

Well, ultimately the editors are in the business because they love comics. You sure don't do it for your health. And as can be witnessed with Joe Quesada running Marvel right now, half the time the editors are comic writers or artists themselves.

So they do care. The problem can be, they're caring about six different projects all at once and your project is number 5. The artist on number 6 just flaked out, which is bad because it's already two days over deadline, and the writer for project 2 wants permission to do an extra two issues over his six-issue limit, because he can't finish the story in time and MAYBE he can do it in one massive issue seven, and then the publisher is worried that project 3 is suddenly taking a turn for the dark when marketing is just starting to point it toward children and how does the editor appease editing and the writer/artist ego and meanwhile project 1 is coming under attack by those f*ckers who censor comics, and so he's probably got MORE paperwork because they don't always just go after the writer and artist and comic seller........

wordmonkey

03-16-2007, 10:26 PM

Do you feel that, because of the extra work involved, an editor nurtures a project more than an editor might for a novel? Like, they might keep working at a story to get it right, because they love the concept or characters, whereas with a novel if something isn't right they'll just reject it?

Well, the editor is usually the one at the sharp end. You have to think of them more like a Magazine or newspaper Editor than a book Editor. They deal with the day-to-day admin of a publication, not just the creative.

And if you look at Civil War, for example, I think Joe Q has come under a great deal of stick. As Editor in Chief, he should carry the can, but he may have had very little creative input (my guess would be that he is very hands on, but all editors are different). he is also the one who meets the "suits" and runs interference for you, the creative element. He should be a cushion between the company and you. His job is to get you what you need, and to crack the whip now and again if needed.

It's been vaguely mentioned that I might be offered an editors gig with a small indie. I'm interested in doing that, but I wouldn't want to have the E-in-C at somewhere like Marvel or DC. I enjoy comics too much, and I fear that kinda job might kill that for me.

PeeDee

03-16-2007, 10:33 PM

It's been vaguely mentioned that I might be offered an editors gig with a small indie. I'm interested in doing that, but I wouldn't want to have the E-in-C at somewhere like Marvel or DC. I enjoy comics too much, and I fear that kinda job might kill that for me.

If you get the job, give me a monthly comic, damn it. :)

wordmonkey

03-16-2007, 11:19 PM

If you get the job, give me a monthly comic, damn it. :)

I might consider it.

If I'm not feeling too "hormonal"!!! :tongue

Mr. Fix

03-17-2007, 12:29 AM

I don't know nothin'.

But, can a 'regular' story (read: novel not published) become a comic? As an avid reader of comics I'd say that a lot of chopping would ensue, but how likely would you say are the possibility of a transfer in genre?

wordmonkey

03-17-2007, 12:56 AM

But, can a 'regular' story (read: novel not published) become a comic? As an avid reader of comics I'd say that a lot of chopping would ensue, but how likely would you say are the possibility of a transfer in genre?

Yes.

But see the stuff ahead of this, within this thread.

And you're right - a LOT of pruning will need to be done.

AzBobby

03-17-2007, 01:56 AM

Darned interesting.

Esp. the descriptions from Wordmonkey of how very difficult it is to maintain a marriage of writer and comic artist. These sound very real and familiar.

I have a graphic novel idea mostly plotted out -- gotta wait for a couple other projects to finish before I get some real work going on it -- and can imagine no other way to approach it but by writing and drawing it all myself, piecing frames and captions with scanned drawings on the computer (and coloring them there), and attempting to sell the whole project in ready-to-go form. That is, I imagine attempting to sell it by demoing the first of a supposed four-parter in final form, after all parts are at minimum roughed out.

Does this ever happen? I think it must, but as a non-connoisseur I tend not to spot many comics by do-it-all-yourselfers. My favorite all time graphic novel is Maus, all by Art Spiegelman, but that's in a class by itself. A damned inimitable class. Most of the others I have lying around here boast the typical list of credits including writer, penciler, inker and whatnot.

In case you wonder why someone who doesn't keep up with comics at expert level is interested in entering the ring, I was a comics fanatic in childhood and only slowed down in adulthood. In the meantime I created quite a few amateur comics, also tried selling comic strips, making one-off sales but never getting a strip syndicated. Nowadays I visit comic book stores now and then and just get the occasional Hellboy, Batman, or Daredevil that really makes me think something special is going on within the first few pages -- rare purchases in the end. The rare finds that are deep and moving as well as artistically interesting are what inspire me.

So anyway I'm pretty much set on the mechanics within the page, to the extent of producing a whole printable full color page for each scene. Are sales ever made on that basis by the big comic publishers -- a graphic novel treated like a single artist's creation to buy and publish mostly as is? (Realizing that editors can hack at novels more easily than at a completed comic layout, the process may not compare easily to book publishing.)

wordmonkey

03-17-2007, 02:37 AM

I have a graphic novel idea mostly plotted out -- gotta wait for a couple other projects to finish before I get some real work going on it -- and can imagine no other way to approach it but by writing and drawing it all myself, piecing frames and captions with scanned drawings on the computer (and coloring them there), and attempting to sell the whole project in ready-to-go form. That is, I imagine attempting to sell it by demoing the first of a supposed four-parter in final form, after all parts are at minimum roughed out.

Does this ever happen?

Yes.

The reason why it tends to not happen so much is that it is so difficult to be a great writer, a great artist, a great inker, a great colorist and a great letterer.

Plus there is the time involved. A really good penciler can easily do one book per month, plus some covers and pin-ups. They might even be able to do two, that is a stretch. 22 pages of penciled sequentials per month. It's why they get the biggest page rate. Working at pro level, for the top two, a penciler at the top of his game, could make a decent living on that. He'd also sell his work at cons as well to bump his take-home. I worked it out and to bring in what we need to earn, I'd need three pro-rate comic books per month. Now that is also REALLY do-able. AND it would give me time to do other stuff too.

But if I had to write an issue, then do the top notch pencils, THEN do top notch inks, THEN color it, and finally add letters, I know I couldn't do that in a month. Not well enough to compete with what's out there.

Something like Maus is more like a novel in that it's meant to be read in its complete form, rather than the serialized comics, so you have some latitude on time and deadlines, but you STILL come back to wither you can do all the jobs to a high enough quality.

I suspect I could (I used to work in graphic design), but the whole process would be too slow for me. I'd get bored of the project and never finish. Writing the comics is the right pace for me. I can spend a little time planning the pages, then write the book, then pass it on to the penciler to do his/her job (and I'm not being PC here, I work with both gender of artist) and I can then move on to the next episode or more likely a different project.

But all that is just ME. You could do it and maybe do it really well. Scanning in art, working it in Photoshop or Canvas, or pulling it all through the ComicLife software, might be just the thing for your project.

AND you don't need to split your money with a creative team.

Check out the indie publishers and see what they are looking for. Some will only look at a finished piece, others are more lax. If you have a reputation or body of work, that never hurts. And if you finish the book entirely, you might also look at selling it to a "prose" publisher - they are also making moves to break into the graphic novel arena.

Go for it, dude!

PeeDee

03-17-2007, 02:41 AM

Plus there is the time involved. A really good penciler can easily do one book per month, plus some covers and pin-ups. They might even be able to do two, that is a stretch.

Unless you're Jim Lee or Frank Miller, and then you get about three panels done per month.

*grumbles*

I'll post productive things in a moment, I just wanted to get that out of my system. :D

wordmonkey

03-17-2007, 02:47 AM

Unless you're Jim Lee or Frank Miller, and then you get about three panels done per month.

Yeah, and if you're Jim Lee or Frank Miller, the normal rules of the industry don't apply.

PeeDee

03-17-2007, 02:53 AM

Thanks to Sin City and 300, I'll give Frank Miller the slip, but....honestly....why is Jim Lee always over? It's probably because he draws each and every tread on the bottom of Batman's boots.

:grumble:

Tallymark

03-17-2007, 04:46 AM

This is such a fantastic thread. I've actually been lurking in it from the beginning, I just haven't had much to say on professional comic dealings, so I took the chance to step back and learn a little. :D But thank you for going into such amazing detail on some topics--it's a big help!

I'm also plotting a graphic novel that I plan to write and draw myself, so I'm very interested in this train of discussion. I know it can be done--in fact, most manga comics are a one-man-show, written and drawn by the same person (although, they will often hire assistants to help fill in backgrounds or finish inking, etc. and no color.). Most of those were in serial form in Japan though, so it's not quite the same whole-book-at-once thing, but still, one can write and draw their own stuff! It's the selling part I'm not so knowledgable about.

And like has already been said, there's certain advantages and disadvantages. One advantage is I already know exactly what my artist is capable of; as the story shapes itself in my head, certain scenes are shaped to take advantage of my own abilities. (my meager, meager abilities). I know drawing animals is something I can pull off; I know drawing machines will make me weep.

And one disadvantage is that it is going to take me forever and ever to do this whole damn thing by myself. (in fact, the more I plot it out, the more I wonder if I should just chop out parts and make a novel. but dangit, I want to to a comic!!). Which is why what I would like to do is do the entire thing, totally complete--thus I would be able to take as long as I want--and then try to sell it or get it published up somewhere. Does this happen a lot? Do you know the names of some independent publishers that take this sort of thing?

Anyway, on a separate but somewhat related topic, I thought I'd add something to the discussion (since everyone else has been so helpful) by talking about the one thing I do know a lot about: the webcomic or POD route.

Going through a real professional publisher is obviously the best--it is the ultimate goal--and if you're serious about getting your comic published, I would exhaust all other options before going the other route. A real publisher, even an indie one, will get you a lot more respect, and will get you into actual stores.

But, if you have tried absolutely everything, and you've got a great story you want to show the world and the publishers just aren't going for it (and you don't want to waste all that art you already drew), the alternative, if your story really is as great as you think it is, can be made to work. It's a different ball game than in novels, where I would never, ever recommend doing POD, or putting your work up on the web for free. But the comic business is such an incredibly hard one to get into, that sometimes you just have to use the backdoor. Or rather, the trapdoor. In the basement. Basically, it's the "if all else has failed" alternative--but it's not as terrible as it seems.

If you're going to do a POD of your comic, the hard part is getting people to know your comic exists and to want to buy it. Going to cons and word of mouth will work in your favor. Network. Even better, can be to put up your comic--or part of it--online. If the comic does well, you can build up a fanbase, and it is a huge thing to have a fanbase. When you get a trade paperback or a comic book printed up, you already have people waiting for it. How many first novels can say that? And fans can be a bit more forgiving of amateur art than an editor may be--Dominic Deegan is a hilariously fun comic, but the art would probably turn most big publishers away. But, fans are perfectly happy to buy the book version off his site.

There are actually some small independent publishers out there that are known for picking up popular webcomics and making them into graphic novels. Inverloch and Earthsong are big comics that got picked up, and can be found in most major bookstores. Ursula Vernon's Digger doesn't get distributed in stores, but it's got such a huge fanbase that it doesn't need to; you can order it online.

That said, most webcomics never make anyone any money, and die quiet, unknown deaths. It all depends on how good the comic is, and how good you are at marketing it. And again, of course, try a real publisher first. But failing that, the alternative ain't too bad. :)

Axler

03-18-2007, 02:50 AM

What I'm the most amazed about is how so many professional novelists I know actually want to break into comics...when I left the field in the early 1990s, comics was viewed as not only a ghetto but a singularly unprofitable one.

However, in part after doing research for a "how-to" book I've been contracted to write (The Everything Guide to Writing Graphic Novels), I've decided to get back into the field, at least partially, since I own several comics properties and they've lain fallow for so long.

I intend to relaunch them in graphic novel format.

Take a look, if you've a mind to:

http://www.comicspace.com/markaxlerellis

wordmonkey

03-18-2007, 08:49 PM

And like has already been said, there's certain advantages and disadvantages. One advantage is I already know exactly what my artist is capable of; as the story shapes itself in my head, certain scenes are shaped to take advantage of my own abilities. (my meager, meager abilities). I know drawing animals is something I can pull off; I know drawing machines will make me weep.

My biggest issue with this, is that you are writing a script based on the lowest common denominator. If you want to really break in and make some money in comics, you MUST have great art. That doesn't mean that it has to look like DC or Marvel work, there's some great stylized artwork out there that I love. He's a big name, but Mike Mignola has deconstructed the lines to an amazing level and brilliant effect. But he can do the real stuff too, his style just evolved.

ART is what sells a new book. Never forget that.

And one disadvantage is that it is going to take me forever and ever to do this whole damn thing by myself. (in fact, the more I plot it out, the more I wonder if I should just chop out parts and make a novel. but dangit, I want to to a comic!!). Which is why what I would like to do is do the entire thing, totally complete--thus I would be able to take as long as I want--and then try to sell it or get it published up somewhere. Does this happen a lot? Do you know the names of some independent publishers that take this sort of thing?

Most indies will take a look at anything that's good. However, I do know that there are some publishers who DON'T like books done by just one guy. They want a team. Don;t know why, but I could make guesses. However, at the end of the day, it's about quality. And again, it's always about "Come for the art, stay for the writing."

Anyway, on a separate but somewhat related topic, I thought I'd add something to the discussion (since everyone else has been so helpful) by talking about the one thing I do know a lot about: the webcomic or POD route.

Here is my take on some of the issues connected with POD...

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58369

BUT, if you do it right, POD in comics doesn't have the same stink as Publish America et al. And it can be a really useful tool. Just don't expect to change the world, or your tax bracket (unless you plan on dropping down).

My wife has a saying about horse breeding, which holds just as true for comics.

How do you make a small fortune in independent comics?

Start with a large one.

Axler

03-19-2007, 12:37 AM

There's no way that anybody makes any significant money strictly from publishing independent comics. In the late 80s to the early 90s, there was money there...seven distributors, and around eight thousand retail outlets.

Now there's what--two distributors and maybe four thousand retail outlets?

The graphic novel/TPB format is definitely the way to go nowdays.

PeeDee

03-19-2007, 02:39 AM

If you're not Marvel/DC/Dark Horse/IMage, etc. you're not making serious money doing graphic novels or tbs either.

In a monetary respect, it's like the short story/short story collection market. It's good for things that aren't monetary.

Axler

03-19-2007, 03:55 AM

Between 1988-93, the average break-even on a color independent comic with a cover price of $2.50 was around 15,000 orders. Those are the numbers for second tier DC titles nowdays.

One of the reasons choosing the TPB or graphic novel format is that you at least stand a chance of getting the product into brick-and-mortar bookstores and therefore reaching a much greater audience than you can with the direct sales market.

Granted, it may not be a great chance if you're an unknown creator, but at least there is one.

I'm about ready to take the plunge into POD with the Death Hawk TPB and if that's not too painful, I'll do it with my other comic properties.

wordmonkey

03-19-2007, 04:30 AM

One of the reasons choosing the TPB or graphic novel format is that you at least stand a chance of getting the product into brick-and-mortar bookstores and therefore reaching a much greater audience than you can with the direct sales market.

The other advantage to a TPB or GN is that you can get it into a regular book store as well as comic stores. This opens up the market in a big way.

Of course, that presupposes that you have the distribution network available to you.

Axler

03-19-2007, 05:34 AM

Best bet would be to submit the published book to Ingram for consideration...and with an ISBN or UPC number, you can be carried on Amazon.

And there's always online sales from various web-sites.

Admittedly, if you have completed material with name recognition talent associated with it, you're ahead of the curve somewhat.

Even so, it all gets back to why you're doing it in the first place.

PeeDee

03-19-2007, 08:56 AM

I hope the reason you do it in the first place is for the love, because doing it for the money is probably a flawed place to start from. With comics, short stories, novels, or anything except maybe pole dancing.

wordmonkey

03-19-2007, 09:44 AM

Axler

03-19-2007, 05:43 PM

Well...although I love the comics medium, I can't say I have any great fondness for what passes for the industry.

wordmonkey

03-19-2007, 08:11 PM

I fear this thread has run its course and will now sink slowly into the mists of the past.

Axler

03-19-2007, 09:14 PM

And why is that...since it was still a goin' concern as recently as the 16th?

Gettin' too real, or what?

wordmonkey

03-19-2007, 09:33 PM

Oh no.

It just seemed that we had gone through the process of "How to write a comic book" and were drifting off before it died a respectful, peaceful death, in bed, surrounded by loved ones.

I love this thread. I thnk it's the one I have posted most to, all the time I have been around AW. I'm all for keeping it rolling. As long as it stays fresh and says something.

PeeDee

03-19-2007, 09:40 PM

It's not sinking yet; I've still got some things to say.

Panels.

What shape to make them? What size? How many to a page?

Well, like the text that you put in each panel, you don't want to have too many. It's important to remember that it's a comic book, not a flip book. An example of a book with just too damn many panels is Sam and Twitch, created by the pillar of light and honesty (snerk) Todd McFarlane. Not every page is like that, but in the early pages of the book, we're talking pages with twenty-four panels per page. Tiny little squares with a headshot and text.

If that went on for ever page, it'd be a disaster. It works for a quick back and forth, but I've seen young'n comics where they do too many of those.

The important thing with panels is to keep the comic going, to keep the beat. It's the beat, after all, part of the rhythm that you're establishing in people's heads, and if you go a mile a minute, then you might exhaust your reader before any emotions have a chance to kick in.

Similarly, you can fall into the trap of Nineties superhero comics, where if you have two pages in a row with more than three panels on them, something must be wrong and you'd better do two or three double-page splashes to make up for it.

What you want is, as with all things, a happy medium and this is partially where mapping out your comic in thumbnails beforehand comes in handy. You can establish what you want each page to say, or each two pages, or whatever. Keeps you from going "Okay, aaaand...um.....we'll do a big explosion shot on page 8 and 9."

This is not to say you have to rigidly stick to six panels a page, every page, all the way through. Perish the thought. But it's to say that if you stick to a simple panel layout (even if you really DO stick to six panels every page) then think of how much more jarring and powerful it is when suddenly, twenty pages in, you DO have a splash.

When making thumbnails, I tend to write over the top of the little page, or the two pages, what I want to happen in this page. For example, on page 2 or 3, I'll write Leaves house & meets girl at lake. I have two pages in which he'll get out of his house, across town, encounter whomever he encounters, gets across an empty field, and meets the little girl by the lake.

Do I need two pages to do that? This is where I'll find out (and this is why my thumbnails are the only thing I do in pencil anymore). Maybe I make a really nice and puzzling flow for two pages. OR maybe I'm on the verge of flip-booking and so I shold cut it back to one page, perhaps?

(in this particular instance, since I'm referring to a real comic, I did indeed cut it back to one page. I realized he didn't have anyone he needed to talk to, he didn't need to think about things for two pages. So I got him out of the house and to the girl in one page, and it worked so much better that way.)

...

Finally, it's important to make sure your panels flow logically from one to the other. I've referred to Sonic the Hedgehog here before, but I'll do it again. Occasionally, there will be arrows pointing from one panel to the other, not because it's a comic for a younger audience but because you need the arrows to figure out which panel goes after which panel.

Make sure you have the flow right. This isn't an amateur problem, I read plenty of comics every year that have this issue. I just read a two-page part of Iron Man's recent comics where the panel on the top of the left page is followed by the next panel, on the top of the right page. So if you try to just read DOWN the left page, you get a disjointed conversation. You have to read across.

Except you don't know that beyond getting confused and trying to figure out why the conversation doesn't work, and then realize it's going across before it's going down.

Easy solution for that problem is, make the first panel stretch all the way across the two pages. Or, make the rest of the panels uneven, so that sometimes they spill over and end on the next page, sometimes the one on the next page ends on this early page. If you see what I mean.

And weird shaped panels? Circular and ovular and what-have-you? And weird borders to your panels? Useful to a degree, unless over-killed, and then they're gaudy and confusing. Simplicity has a lot of benefits.

Axler

03-19-2007, 09:46 PM

Ah.

Well, here's my two cents about "How To Write A Comic Book".

I know how to write comics...I know how to write books...writing comics is easier, less time-consuming and often a lot more funner.

Also, you can employ different methods with writing comics books (or the "graphic narrative") than you can writing books.

In comics, you get to collaborate with an artist which is also funner.

The main problem is that most of the time, you make way more money writing books than you would writing comics.

Those tid-bits and many more besides can be found in my Everything Guide To Writing Graphic Novels book...out from Adams Media sometime soon, I hope.

wordmonkey

03-20-2007, 12:08 AM

Well, here's my two cents about "How To Write A Comic Book".

I know how to write comics...I know how to write books...writing comics is easier, less time-consuming and often a lot more funner.

At risk of sounding rude, that's great. But what does it contribute to the thread? There are lots of folks who don't know how to do either and come to places like this to get an insight. Which is kinda the point of the thread.

Frankly, I don't know that one is easier than the other. It's like saying apples are sweeter than oranges. I've had some pretty acidic apples, some pretty acidic oranges.

Also, you can employ different methods with writing comics books (or the "graphic narrative") than you can writing books.

That isn't really a thing you can or can't do, depending on your mood. You MUST employ different tools and skills. You must also learn when to sit back and let someone else drive for a while.

In comics, you get to collaborate with an artist which is also funner.

And can be hellish. The more egos involved, the bigger the fights. The more frustrating. In my experience, when you add "creative" to that mix, it becomes explosive.

Though in fairness, if you find a great artist, it is absolutely awesome.

The main problem is that most of the time, you make way more money writing books than you would writing comics.

Well, I suspect for most people in AW in general, the prospect of making ANY money from their writing is a distant dream. But there's also the fact that some people just can't write prose. They suck at it. But they can tell a story. And sitting down and working through a comic script, with an artist might be the only way they can get their story out (when was the lasttime you read a real page-turning Stan Lee novel?).

And I'm sure we all know how horrible it is to have literary constipation (as opposed to literary diarrhea - which curiously, usually follows the other). Some folks just wanna do a comic, or a movie script, or a novel, just to prove they can do it. Get that ONE story out there.

Mostly that's why I put in all my stuff to this thread, because anyone who's a pro, or determined to become one, doesn't need this beyond a jumping off point. They'll find their own way in.

Those tid-bits and many more besides can be found in my Everything Guide To Writing Graphic Novels book...out from Adams Media sometime soon, I hope.

Might wanna work on that sales pitch, dude. What it lacked in subtlety, it made up for in blandness.

I KID! I KID! ;)

Because I love.

SHEESH! The lengths I go to to nourish this thread. Even picking fights that I don't really mean, just to keep it up there! :D

PeeDee

03-20-2007, 12:12 AM

The concept of making way more money working in books as opposed to comics isn't accurate at all, I'm afraid. In either medium, if you do well, you'll make money, if you do poorly, you won't make much of anything.

The only way to make that statement true would be to say "Books make more money than poetry," which is true enough. Likewise, comics make more money than poetry. Them's the breaks.

Axler

03-20-2007, 01:05 AM

Well, having worked as a comics scripter and as a novelist, I can state without fear of refutation that I have made far and away more money as a novelist than I ever did as a comics scripter.

There's a vast middle ground between poor money and good money.

In comics I made upper level mediocre money...compared to novels where I make upper level good-to-great money. Depending.

If you factor in the time involved in producing a novel as opposed to to producing 300 plus pages of comic scripts, and break it down into dollars and cents, then I guess I made mid-range good money as a comics writer.

Interestingly enough, about ten years ago, I passed on an offer to ghost-write a novel for Stan. I couldn't see how I could make a page-turner out of the plot he supplied to me.

I've been very fortunate in my collaborations with artists...there are some I've enjoyed working with more than others because we had a true rapport going and there are others where it was just an unprettied "Me write, you draw" kind of relationship, but I never had a collaboration that even bordered on the "hellish."

As for the Everything Guide To Writing Graphic Novels book...I'll let the marketing department of the publisher decide how to promote it.

Unless they turn that part of the process over to me, which I doubt.

Axler

03-20-2007, 01:31 AM

At risk of sounding rude, that's great. But what does it contribute to the thread? There are lots of folks who don't know how to do either and come to places like this to get an insight. Which is kinda the point of the thread.

Well, then they oughta to be halfway interested in reading the posts of somebody who--at the risk of coming off as self-congratulatory and I hope I don't but if I do what the heck--has had a degree of success with both.

Axe me questions about either or both or neither.

That isn't really a thing you can or can't do, depending on your mood. You MUST employ different tools and skills. You must also learn when to sit back and let someone else drive for a while.

Actually, in my experience it depends more on the mood of the artist you're working with.

Don Heck preferred working full script as opposed to the plot-first Marvel Method ("why should I have to do all the work?") whereas Adam Hughes liked the plot with thumbnails technique and the druthers of Jim Mooney, Darryl Banks, Franc Reyes and Rik Levins was the detailed thumbnail/breakdown method.

That's my preferred method, too.

Though in fairness, if you find a great artist, it is absolutely awesome.

Absolutely.

And I'm sure we all know how horrible it is to have literary constipation (as opposed to literary diarrhea - which curiously, usually follows the other).

I had both at the same time a couple of summers ago, after eating too many sugar-free popsicles.

wordmonkey

03-20-2007, 02:49 AM

If you factor in the time involved in producing a novel as opposed to to producing 300 plus pages of comic scripts, and break it down into dollars and cents, then I guess I made mid-range good money as a comics writer.

I think it depends WHERE you are in the industry. Most folks who read this thread will likely as not NOT be in the industry or if they are, they're knocking at the doors, or trying to dig under the fence. However, I wrote a novel (not very intensively), in about three months. If I'm flowing, I can turn a 22 page script for a comic around in two days (though I prefer to take a little longer). However, I have a comic coming out that I wrote not last Christmas, the Christmas before. It will be out in May. Break down the dollars/hours on that, and it's not pretty.

Interestingly enough, about ten years ago, I passed on an offer to ghost-write a novel for Stan. I couldn't see how I could make a page-turner out of the plot he supplied to me.

LOL.

I've been very fortunate in my collaborations with artists...there are some I've enjoyed working with more than others because we had a true rapport going and there are others where it was just an unprettied "Me write, you draw" kind of relationship, but I never had a collaboration that even bordered on the "hellish."

I think that the more professional the artist, the less likely the friction. But as I'v said before, if you're at the very low-end of the business, trying to break in, you don't always that luxury.

As for the Everything Guide To Writing Graphic Novels book...I'll let the marketing department of the publisher decide how to promote it.

I was just bustin' on ya, dude. This is the comic section, not the froo-froo novels section. We drink beer from the bottle, spit, cuss and fart here!

wordmonkey

03-20-2007, 02:53 AM

Well, then they oughta to be halfway interested in reading the posts of somebody who--at the risk of coming off as self-congratulatory and I hope I don't but if I do what the heck--has had a degree of success with both.

Axe me questions about either or both or neither.

HEY LURKERS!

The floodgates are open!

You don't get an offer like that everyday. Tap this resource dry!

:D

Axler

03-20-2007, 03:12 AM

Speaking of resources, Monk (or Word, if you prefer)...I know a couple of comics pros in NC...maybe you crossed paths with 'em at Heroes Con or elsewhere.

Stacia Kane

03-20-2007, 04:13 AM

I was just bustin' on ya, dude. This is the comic section, not the froo-froo novels section. We drink beer from the bottle, spit, cuss and fart here!

Um...I drink beer from the bottle and have been known to cuss...but you can speak for yourself on the rest of it, as I don't do this things.

Not just men reading this thread. :)

I'd love to have someone discuss pacing within a story arc, and how to break events down into issues but still have each issue have a full build-up and climax.

Also, it might be interesting to hear about the differences between scripts twenty-thirty years ago, with all of the thought bubbles, and now. I went back to read the Dark Phoenix story a while ago and it was really interesting to see how much the writing style has changed between then and now.

What are some outmoded techniques, or things that are cliche?

wordmonkey

03-20-2007, 05:29 AM

Speaking of resources, Monk (or Word, if you prefer)...I know a couple of comics pros in NC...maybe you crossed paths with 'em at Heroes Con or elsewhere.

Oh at the moment, I'm very aware that I'm a very small fish in a small pond. In fact I think the big fish use my pond as a toilet.

I am going to HeroesCon later this summer. If you have contacts to share, feel free to PM me. (I only say PM so they don't have names bandied around and are hit with an in-flux of messages and you get some grief. Of course, if you'd rather not, for the same reason, that's OK.)

And it's always nice to look up someone at a con. Put a face to a name.

wordmonkey

03-20-2007, 05:46 AM

Um...I drink beer from the bottle and have been known to cuss...but you can speak for yourself on the rest of it, as I don't do this things.

Not just men reading this thread. :)

Clearly you hang out at classier places than I. I WAS talking about the women! You don't wanna hear what the guys do!

I'd love to have someone discuss pacing within a story arc, and how to break events down into issues but still have each issue have a full build-up and climax.

I think you have to almost take EACH issue as if it were a single story. You're driving for the END of that issue. That is your goal. Each page 22 is the finale. Of course, each one throughout the arc has to escalate, but in broad stroke, that's my take.

Also, it might be interesting to hear about the differences between scripts twenty-thirty years ago, with all of the thought bubbles, and now. I went back to read the Dark Phoenix story a while ago and it was really interesting to see how much the writing style has changed between then and now.

Hey, last I heard DC scripted in a panel-by-panel breakdown, where the Marvel way was loosely say what happens on the page, let the artist do the layout, then the writer goes back in and adds the dialog for the letterer.

I think the "thought bubble" has disappeared, because there are more subtle ways to convey what those bubbles did. At heart, if you look back, you will see that the "thoughts" are expostion, or explaining things that aren't obvious.

What are some outmoded techniques, or things that are cliche?

I think there is always room for everything, as long as it's used judiciously. Even writing "in vogue," if done badly, or over-killed, then it's bad.

wordmonkey

03-20-2007, 05:51 AM

PANELS

I think the key is watching what you do. While I do plan out my panels in the thumbnails I do prior to the script writing starts, I'm looking at ways to keep the visual dynamic interesting and keep the narrative flowing.

There's obviously the left-to-right, top-to-bottom, and you should NEVER need arrows, but you can also use them to emphasize a scene or minimize it's importance.

HOWEVER, you gotta also be aware that your penciler might well throw out your layout and rework the page layout.

I tend to favor less is more when it comes to fancy panel shapes, but occasionally they can be used to great effect, but...

PeeDee

03-20-2007, 06:41 AM

Outdated concepts: The captions talking to the Super-heroes. They used to do that in early X-Men comics. You'd get the panel going:

CAPTION: But you're not good enough to lead the team, Cyclops.

CYCLOPS: No...

CAPTION: ...Are you?

CYCLOPS: ....NO!!

I don't know if it counts as a 'concept,' per se since it was a very Jack Kirby, Stan Lee thing to do.

Axler

03-20-2007, 07:50 AM

Personally, I never cared for thought balloons and I've used them only sparingly.

As for pacing, I always strive to establish a rhythm per page...the last panel should contain a small "kicker" to induce the reader to turn to the next page.

I never change locales or character POVs in the middle of a page, I do both on a seperate page.

Usually, for a page that contains a lot of physical action, I try to hold it down to a minimum of four panels.

For the prerequisite talking head pages, I'll go as many seven panels but no fewer than five. Even then, in order to keep the page from being too copy heavy, I try to reduce the number of dialogue balloons to two per panel.

I had a mind-set when I wrote arcs contained within four issues that I was writing a half-hour television drama, along the lines of The Rifleman or a show like that and paced the action accordingly. You had a limited amount of time to introduce the characters, the plot, the conflict, the action and that issue's resolution, even if the resolution was a cliff-hanger.

By the time you reached the last page of the fourth issue, you had completed the equivalent of a two hour long screen or teleplay.

Word--I was thinking of Hero Con perennials like Terry Collins, Bill Neville, Mike Wieringo and Al Bigley.

They're just regular people, last I heard. Walk up to 'em and demand they buy you a beer. They won't do it, but they won't scream for security, either.

Tallymark

03-20-2007, 10:27 PM

If you want to really break in and make some money in comics, you MUST have great art. That doesn't mean that it has to look like DC or Marvel work, there's some great stylized artwork out there that I love. He's a big name, but Mike Mignola has deconstructed the lines to an amazing level and brilliant effect. But he can do the real stuff too, his style just evolved.

ART is what sells a new book. Never forget that.

That is a great point, and I totally agree...I'm probably not portraying myself acurately, because I am capable of good art...in fact, part of what I'm hoping will be most attractive about my comic is the art. But my biggest problem is that it takes a tremendous amount of effort on my part; I can draw well, but I can't draw fast. (which is why deadlines would be an issue for me). I think part of the reason for this though is that I simply haven't been drawing enough lately and am out of practice, so I am hoping that by committing myself to a large art project like this, my ability to draw good+fast art will eventually improve. And even if I don't end up being terribly successful with it, I think that the learning experience will be important, for future comics. I figure, every professional comic artist has to start out on some small project where they figure out hands-on how certain things work.

You made some great points about POD in the other thread...part of the idea of doing the art myself is to cut out the tremendous cost of paying an artist, so that at least what meager money I may make would only have the printing fees subtracted from it (assuming I get stuck doing POD, which I hope isn't the case!). Well, and I'd have to market it myself. Basically, I'm not expecting to make big money, but I'm hoping at least to not lose too much money. 'Cus I'm dirt poor so I have no money to lose. XD

I hope the reason you do it in the first place is for the love, because doing it for the money is probably a flawed place to start from. With comics, short stories, novels, or anything except maybe pole dancing.

This is definately a labor of love. I'm hoping, desperately, that it can be published by a real publisher, even a small one, because I would really like to see it out there and have people enjoy it. But it's also just a personally rewarding project.

..A tedious, time-consuming, financially draining, personally rewarding project. Damn. XD

Anyway, on the topic of panels--so would you all say that six panels a page is, across comics, usually the average? Also, just what size parameters do people usually work at? What are the dimensions of the average comic book, and how much larger does the artist usually work at? Or do they sometimes do it at actual size?

Also, does a graphic novel have an average number of pages? Or is that something that's totally variable? (unlike the number of pages in your standard comic book).

wordmonkey

03-20-2007, 11:16 PM

Tally

Go for it. I think the most important thing is that you have fun doing it. You'll undoubtedly learn a lot, but what you're planning is such a monster job, that if it's no fun, it's a nightmare.

The obvious flipside is that the fun you have doing it will come through in the writing and the art you do, which obviously makes it a much more appealing product for people to pick up and read.

Despite some doom and gloom, there are ways in, but for myself, I always like to know ahead of time if it's gonna be hard. For me, that tends to be be more of a carrot.

I may refer to it as a Quixotic Adventure, but I love the Don and I think the world might be a little better if more people seized their crazy dreams and went for it. Of course, if you're the owner of a windmill, I will understand if you disagree with that last statement.

Axler

03-21-2007, 04:25 AM

Received this proof today.

http://www.comicspace.com/markaxlerellis/uploaded/65/1174431173_821dqjgi4Z.jpg?1174431173

And lest I forget...

Ta. Da.

AzBobby

05-16-2007, 06:12 AM

For the prerequisite talking head pages, I'll go as many seven panels but no fewer than five. Even then, in order to keep the page from being too copy heavy, I try to reduce the number of dialogue balloons to two per panel.

I had a mind-set when I wrote arcs contained within four issues that I was writing a half-hour television drama, along the lines of The Rifleman or a show like that and paced the action accordingly. You had a limited amount of time to introduce the characters, the plot, the conflict, the action and that issue's resolution, even if the resolution was a cliff-hanger.

Do I observe correctly that the more "literary" a comic (I guess I mean carried by words) the more likely you are to see many tiny panels in a row on some pages, to carry a conversation or represent a character stumbling from thought to thought? I'm thinking Dark Knight Returns and Maus here. Sometimes the plain, old fashioned brick wall effect of some of these panel series hits you by surprise if you're used to the mainstream stuff, but I find them rewarding and effective if they're balanced off with more relaxed layouts and of course if the writing is worth it.

I gotta admit I'm turned off by a routine of pages with few panels. It's a prejudicial thing; it sends the instant message to me that it's juvenile material without me bothering to check the dialogue and captions. I like it for splash effect now and then, though. If they're rare, big panels work well as a signal that something important is going on.

Having finally read Watchmen for the first time recently, I'm sensitive to comics getting too heavy with dialogue and captions. For a superhero yarn, that one was talky as hell. Still great, though. Definitely more impressive for its writing than for its art. I think I prefer the Hellboy balance -- also writerly to the extent of getting talky at times, but balanced with action and always terrifically stylish art. My own style is flawed on the side of the talky, so it helps to take such notes.

BTW, Rifleman rocks. Excellent pacing comparison.

wordmonkey

05-16-2007, 06:30 AM

Do I observe correctly that the more "literary" a comic (I guess I mean carried by words) the more likely you are to see many tiny panels in a row on some pages, to carry a conversation or represent a character stumbling from thought to thought? I'm thinking Dark Knight Returns and Maus here. Sometimes the plain, old fashioned brick wall effect of some of these panel series hits you by surprise if you're used to the mainstream stuff, but I find them rewarding and effective if they're balanced off with more relaxed layouts and of course if the writing is worth it.

I think it depends on the writer and the story.

Sometimes you need to put in a bit of exposition. The way I try and do it, rather than have the talking heads, is to have the dialog running over the top of some other action. I just did that in a mini I'm working on. A SWAT team is preparing to hit a building and the hero, a Delta Force guy wants the SWAT team to hold off. He's arguing with the SWAT commander. Coulda bin talking heads, but I started with them facing each other, then ran their dialog over the top of a series of action panels as the other SWAT members got ready, loaded weapons, cut power, etc.

Taking the screenplay parallel a step further. There is an idea that you should be able to watch a movie, without the sound, and still work out what's happening. I try and write comics like that. It's partly why when I start, I thumbnail the page for myself. So I'm always thinking visually. The dialog, bubbles, captions, et al, should merely add a richness, IMO. You should be able to write for an artist and have the core vibe of the story come through in the art alone. It's why gettng a great artist is so important.

And so difficult.

Axler

05-16-2007, 07:08 AM

My own style is flawed on the side of the talky, so it helps to take such notes.

BTW, Rifleman rocks. Excellent pacing comparison.

Yeah...The Andy Griffith Show is a good one to study for pacing and rhythm, too.

Talking-head exposition scenes are the banes of comics scripter's lives. They have to be in there if you're crafting an actual story instead of a series of fight scenes, but figuring out the best way to present them can be a real pain.

It's why gettng a great artist is so important.

And so difficult.

Exactly. I found the "Caniff-era" artists were the best and most reliable in staging the talking head scenes. They seemed to have an instinctive grasp of how to do it, so the art and dialogue balloons could be in balance instead of in conflict.

Here are links to a couple of classic examples, the first by the great Jim Mooney:

http://www.comicspace.com/markaxlerellis/uploaded/3269/1171507085_tzG35EYrh6.jpg?1171507085

And the other by the under-rated (but no less great) Don Heck:

http://www.comicspace.com/markaxlerellis/uploaded/65/1170282601_sNTUc9RDAi.jpg?1170282601

Dancre

05-16-2007, 07:39 AM

Received this proof today.

http://www.comicspace.com/markaxlerellis/uploaded/65/1174431173_821dqjgi4Z.jpg?1174431173

And lest I forget...

Ta. Da.

When does it come out? It looks interesting.

kim

Dancre

05-16-2007, 07:58 AM

wordmonkey

05-16-2007, 04:46 PM

Everything here is the same for a graphic novel. If you look at a multi-part story arc that runs through say six issues of a comic series, it's exactly the same as a graphic novel. The only difference is that you turn a page to get to the next part, rather than wait a month.

Everything here about pacing etc. is just the same.

The upside is that if you complete a GN, you can pitch it to traditional book publishers, who are now looking to get in on the GN scene. However, you will need to have it finished, completely, before you pitch it (just like you would a regular novel).

The downside is that it's much harder to find an artist who will do this for free. Or at least take the risk on a back-end deal for such a massive amount of work.

If you pitch your story as a mini-series, you are then kinda stuck with comic publishers, BUT you can basicaly get an artist to do the first part (22 pages) and pitch. It's still not easy, but it's easier to do that and get a good artist, than to get someone good to do a GN.

Of course, if are willing to invest, and pay the artist a page rate, ignore the above. Same if you're doing the art yourself.

Axler

05-16-2007, 07:26 PM

wordmonkey

05-16-2007, 07:57 PM

Like Word says, there's no appreciable difference between the comics scripting format and that of a graphic novel.

You might want to look on Comics Space for an artist willing to collaborate with you for a 50-50 type of agreement.

I think deviant is a better resource for finding an artist. I've had the most success there. That said, to get a good artist, who won't flake out, knows what they are doing, maybe has something published, AND will work with you on the deal like Axler says, is not easy.

But is IS possible.

AzBobby

05-16-2007, 10:17 PM

I think it depends on the writer and the story.

Sometimes you need to put in a bit of exposition. The way I try and do it, rather than have the talking heads, is to have the dialog running over the top of some other action. I just did that in a mini I'm working on. A SWAT team is preparing to hit a building and the hero, a Delta Force guy wants the SWAT team to hold off. He's arguing with the SWAT commander. Coulda bin talking heads, but I started with them facing each other, then ran their dialog over the top of a series of action panels as the other SWAT members got ready, loaded weapons, cut power, etc.

There's exposition and then there's talky, I guess. Axler linked two examples that seem to show the difference. One of them was a conversation in which visual interest was maintained with a variety of angles on the couple talking. But it was still all about the talking. The second example showed the investigation of a crime scene. It wasn't merely different because the images were more interesting, though they were. Without knowing much context of the story, I sensed that the scene moved action forward. You were watching characters move through a scene discovering stuff for themselves, doing their jobs, not stopping in the middle of a story but rather playing out part of the story. Slightly removed from the mere talk exposition, even though some talk exposition was part of it.

I'm not saying some stories shouldn't be talky, of course. Some are supposed to be soap operas and that's that. It only seems to be a problem when it disturbs the rhythm set down for the kind of story you're telling.

I like the technique of dialogue layered over other action, whether in captions or stretchy balloons or whatever. In the example you describe, it sounds like it also adds suspense, if they're arguing about whether to go in while members of the team are putting their fingers on the triggers. It's a great idea to use the imagery beyond explicitly representing the words and vice versa, or for exposing the words or imagery in some new light by their juxtaposition. It can also be overdone like a novelty that distracts you from the flow of the story, like the pirate story comic-within-a-comic that added incongruous captions all over the Watchmen without any point I could readily see. But in general I'm all in favor of using that cinematic layering of images and voices that can raise a comic a little over the surface of the paper.

Taking the screenplay parallel a step further. There is an idea that you should be able to watch a movie, without the sound, and still work out what's happening. I try and write comics like that. It's partly why when I start, I thumbnail the page for myself. So I'm always thinking visually. The dialog, bubbles, captions, et al, should merely add a richness, IMO. You should be able to write for an artist and have the core vibe of the story come through in the art alone.

I don't know; your approach to comics sounds right but I never bought that adage about an ideal movie being carried by images only, even just barely. It doesn't apply to most of the best films, in which the marriage of image, sound and words is key. Sticking with a parallel between movies and graphic novels, this notion seems to run contrary to the one you just described, where you broaden a dialogue scene by overlapping it with other shots. Presumably that dialogue is indispensible or you would've cut it out. It reminds me of the typical setup in modern Batman stories, where the caption boxes carry a first-person narrative that stands in place of Batman's thought balloons. These thoughts deliver exposition about his current investigation, or sometimes just rambling thoughts about life that flesh out his character; but meanwhile, in the pictures over which they float, we see him tear across town in the batmobile, throw his batarang, hoist himself up the side of a building, and sneak into someone's window. There's no sense of space wasted on the page while still enjoying the text, the best of both worlds.

That having been said I agree that the words have to clipped to an absolute minimum without losing elements of your story (and sometimes, if the story is very substantial, the "minimum" still leaves you with a lot of dialogue and captions), and it's impressive when key information is delivered through visuals alone. You don't have to tell the reader the character's an alcoholic if the empty vodka bottles are clearly visible on her nightstand. So that same image can include a caption that delivers completely different information. You end up with twice the depth of story packed into the same number of pages that way.

Dancre

05-20-2007, 05:52 AM

I gotta admit I'm turned off by a routine of pages with few panels. It's a prejudicial thing; it sends the instant message to me that it's juvenile material without me bothering to check the dialogue and captions. I like it for splash effect now and then, though. If they're rare, big panels work well as a signal that something important is going on.

So big panels mean something big is going to happen, got it. What about the smaller ones that zoom in on a hand, or a face or eyes, a sword, something? What is the purpose of those? What about a split screen? What would that one be used for? How about a panel that uses the whole page? Does this also mean, this is very important, so pay attention to it? Thanks.

kim

wordmonkey

05-20-2007, 07:08 AM

So big panels mean something big is going to happen, got it. What about the smaller ones that zoom in on a hand, or a face or eyes, a sword, something? What is the purpose of those? What about a split screen? What would that one be used for? How about a panel that uses the whole page? Does this also mean, this is very important, so pay attention to it? Thanks.

No.

You could just as easily use a full page panel to focus in on one small element. In essence completely flip your suggestion that a big panel is for a big story element. I'm working on a book that has a full page panel that's almost entirely black. In the middle is a naked body - quite small considering the blackness surrounding. The emphasis on that page is how small and insignificant that body is.

You should also remember that if you have a page full of small panels, you can use it to not only focus on details, but also directly impact pacing. If you have nine panels on a page, you have nine chunks of time. You can use that to hammer through the seconds as each one leaps forward crucial event to crucial event. The flip side is that you can draw out a moment in time by repeating the same panel over and over.

It all depends on what you do IN the panel.

And remember, whatever books or guides you read, even the massive thread here, once you know the rules, you are free to break them for dynamic effect, just be careful that you don't over do it.

Dancre

05-20-2007, 07:49 AM

No.

You could just as easily use a full page panel to focus in on one small element. In essence completely flip your suggestion that a big panel is for a big story element. I'm working on a book that has a full page panel that's almost entirely black. In the middle is a naked body - quite small considering the blackness surrounding. The emphasis on that page is how small and insignificant that body is.

Ahhh . . .ok.

You should also remember that if you have a page full of small panels, you can use it to not only focus on details, but also directly impact pacing. If you have nine panels on a page, you have nine chunks of time. You can use that to hammer through the seconds as each one leaps forward crucial event to crucial event. The flip side is that you can draw out a moment in time by repeating the same panel over and over.

So if two guys are sword fighting, I could use the smaller panels to break down the fight? yes?

It all depends on what you do IN the panel.

So if I want to draw the reader's attention to say, my character's face, which is showing sorrow, I can do it in a big panel or a small panel?

And remember, whatever books or guides you read, even the massive thread here, once you know the rules, you are free to break them for dynamic effect, just be careful that you don't over do it.

I love breaking the rules. fun!!! Thanks!! And could a panel almost be considered as a paragraph in a novel?

kim

Axler

05-20-2007, 08:01 AM

Well, as Word implies...you gotta know the rules before you can break them.

As for a panel translating into a paragraph....I never thought of it that way, but I suppose so.

I always considered panels to be analogous to camera angles.

drybonesreborn

05-20-2007, 08:34 PM

Is there any Part book, part comic?

wordmonkey

05-20-2007, 10:00 PM

So if two guys are sword fighting, I could use the smaller panels to break down the fight? yes?

You can do anything.

You could set them in silhouette so you see them in some classic fencing type poses, thrust, parry, lunge, etc.
You could do a series of close-ups on faces as they glower, snarl, spit and insult each other and add an SFX: CHING as their swords clash off panel.
You could run a series of panels that are their clothes being slashed, shoulders stabbed, and various sundry other wounds that are picked up with additional SFX: CHING or SFX: SWOOSH or Character One: UGH!
You could also let your artist have some fun (and I do this on fight scenes from time-to-time) and simply give some general overview comments of the fight as it plays out and leave the page/panel arrangement toy the artist. You mayneed to go back in and add appropriate dialog and SFX, but you could just as easily leave that for the letterer and editor to basically ad-lib when the pencils are done.

Cool, eh? And I stopped there, I can think of at least three more ways I could show that fight. You can probably come up with your own list. Just think visually interesting.

(That last example works pretty much only if you have a fight scene where it's just that. But even that I usually want the fight to start in a specific way and end on a specific panel/scene, so the script has to reflect that.)

And again, what's the context of the fight? Is it the same level of intensity as the show-down between Obi Wan and Anakin? Does the fight run an entire 22 page issue (or manga chapter)? Is it a brief skirmish that runs a page before on character flees? Are there other things running at the same time, that dictates you cutting away to show the castle being stormed, or the princess begin rescued, while this fight distracts the main badguy? Oh I know these side issues don't impact the fight per se, but they could impact the way you SHOW the fight. You could even get Eisner on it and ditch panels entirely.

So if I want to draw the reader's attention to say, my character's face, which is showing sorrow, I can do it in a big panel or a small panel?

The sky's the limit. Just make sure you effectively convey the message you want. While thinking about this I remember a Spider-man issue from way back (probably the 70's). I was back in England and the Spider-man comics I got there were English reprints that had all the same artwork but no color inside. This issue introduced the new character of Nova. The cover of the book was very similar to a spash page inside. It was somekind of study or office. On the floor was the dead body of Nova's Dad or Uncle or mentor. Spidey was in the room having just discovered the body and Nova was powering into the room and thinking the Webhead was the killer. The room had been ransacked during what had obviously been a fight, leading to the death, and among the debris all around, by the hand of the murder victim, was the last six pages of a month-at-view calendar, fanned out in order, July, August, September, October, November and December.

The reason this sticks in my memory so clearly was that the cover told you the identity of the real murder. It was there, bang in the middle of the page, and repeated on the splash inside, and ther were several other panels that pointed to the name of the murder. Oh yeah, I do mean name. Spelled out clear as day. Eventually Spidey and Nova work it out. But that is a classic example of using a BIG panel to tell a very small, but crucial detail.

I love breaking the rules. fun!!! Thanks!! And could a panel almost be considered as a paragraph in a novel?

I tend to think like Axler does, that the panels are like camera angles in a movie (which is why the comic scripts helped my screenwriting and vice-versa). Because the content of the panel often dictates the length of time it represents, rather than the actual size, I think that again, it depends. You could have a small, inset panel that ends a scene and it's supposed to convey a stunned halt to the proceedings, like a pregnant pause. So in that case, it's more like a punctuation point. You could have a double page spread that shows a massive battle, lots of characters, lots going on. Takes a while to read, but actually all those various conflicts are running at the same second.

I think it might help to clarify something fundamental here. While we are talking writing here, you CANNOT take the script completely out of context and study it just as is. Because the point is that it is so interlinked with the art that to JUST consider the script is like just considering the melody in "Ode to Joy." The size of the panel is undoubtedly important and you use that tool to your benefit. But what you tell the artist to draw INSIDE that panel carries just as much impact on timing and detail as anything else.

It really isn't like any other kind of writing. The closest would be screenwriting, and even then, when you write a spec script, you keep it much simpler (ie: don't direct from the page) and it still flows. In a comic script, you dictate the camera angle; the degree to which you zoom in or out; the specific detail the "camera" focuses on; when to cut to a person or scene; when to cut away; and lastly, how long a scene takes, or how long ou hold a shot on a character.

THE POWER!!!

Use it wisely.

Dancre

05-20-2007, 10:44 PM

Dancre

05-20-2007, 10:50 PM

Is there any Part book, part comic?

Well, Tokyopo.com requires their books to have some illustrations. Maybe around 30ish per book? In fact, one of the editors over there said the book should have a killer pitch if the author doesn't include the artwork. Most of their fiction books are in the book stores, including Trinity Blood. So go check them out. I think other manga publishers who publish novels also require some sort of illustrations.

kim

wordmonkey

05-21-2007, 12:56 AM

Wow!! WordMonkey, you're making me very excited to start this new adventure of mine. So do you think it would help me to take a few screenwriting classes? Or concentrate more on the writing and camera shots? And I also liked the idea of those camera shots. That really makes my juices flow!! I appreciate you sitting down with me and hammering out of this stuff.

Don't tell my wife I got someone all juicy! :D

I think you should do whatever you feel will be of greatest benefit to you. Personally I would just do it.

That said, you have to accept that cross discipline maxim - the first thing you write will suck. But to my mind, you'll learn more making mistakes and learning from them than you do lstening or reading about someone else doing it. BUT, if you're the kind of person who learns best by the reading and absorbing, you should do that.

If you plan on reading, I would also recommend reading comics and graphic novels. And go cross genre. Sin City, while pretty grizzly at times, is amazingly visually stylistic. But go to the comic book story near you and pull out a bunch of comics from the cheap bins. Even the bad ones will teach you something.

Whether you agree or not, I would also recommend looking through the comics and NOT reading the text. Can you tell what the story is about? Can you follow the narrative? Then go back and read it WITH the text and see what that adds. Do exactly what you would reading prose. Read it with a critical writer's eye.

And then come back and ask more questions. Ask 'em ahead of time if you want. But study your chosen field.

Dancre

05-21-2007, 01:01 AM

Cool!! Thanks!!

kim

wordmonkey

05-21-2007, 02:27 AM

Cool!! Thanks!!

Don't clap, just throw money! :D

Dancre

05-21-2007, 02:56 AM

Ah, yeah. The check's in the mail, look for it. Keep looking. :)

wordmonkey

05-21-2007, 07:29 AM

Ah, yeah. The check's in the mail, look for it. Keep looking. :)

Put a stop on that check and buy some comics. ;)

wordmonkey

09-14-2007, 11:11 PM

Bumped 'cos it's cram-packed with nutty goodness. And it's also full of links to PeeDee's new online adventure and with WeePeeDee now kicking and screaming, he's gonna need all the exposure he can get.

And not the usual exposure he does, in parks, that results in a night at the local police station. :D

PeeDee

09-14-2007, 11:21 PM

That should bring 'em in. "Hey, let's follow the banner in the signature of the guy who does exposures!"

I've been so busy, I forgot this thread was here. What a cool thread this was.

I'm about to embark on a whole new comic experience, I learned last night. And In a few days, I'll chat about it. (How's that for useless?)

wordmonkey

09-14-2007, 11:34 PM

That should bring 'em in. "Hey, let's follow the banner in the signature of the guy who does exposures!"

I do what I can. :D

I've been so busy, I forgot this thread was here. What a cool thread this was.

Yeah. A a great thing to work through as well. I think sometimes it's easy to just do stuff and not think about why. For me at least, it made me really sit back and think about the process.

I'm about to embark on a whole new comic experience, I learned last night. And In a few days, I'll chat about it. (How's that for useless?)

Now don't beat yourself up, pal. It's not like we expect anything more. ;)

Seriously though, I think if you can, that would be a great addition to this thread, or maybe a new one. This one talked about the theory, the new one could focus on the practical. Look forward to see what you're working on, dude.

Hummingbird

10-13-2007, 11:52 AM

~Happily lurking~ Yeah... I'm slow, and just noticed the thread. Thankyou for posting!! XD

wordmonkey

10-13-2007, 07:01 PM

Welcome to the underbelly of the beast, H-bird!

Wolvel

03-20-2008, 06:28 AM

Like Wordmonkey said even the bad ones can teach because they were actually published.

If you have a friend who was or is into comics with a good sized collection to leaf through, that could help.

Lucky for me I still have the 2,500 I collected from 1979-2002

goatmam

06-20-2008, 05:36 AM

I personally can draw one with no problem, it's getting down and writing that puts me at a halt! I can write in script form w/ little to no problem, but when it comes to writing, penciling, inking and all the other junk that comes with graphic novels I just don't have the time! Maybe if I didn't have to hold a job I could do it lol.

rubberbands

10-06-2008, 02:38 AM

the Peter David book was great for me only because I annotated what i severely disagreed with ^_^. I like the Scott McCloud comic books about comic books series. Also, Character Design Studio is relatively cheap and provides borderlines to be crossed for storyline, character-types.

Lucifal

01-16-2009, 09:49 PM

Is there any Part book, part comic?LIke Murky Depths? Or like a novel that's in prose and comic form?

Aristocrazy

03-11-2009, 04:08 PM

I have restocked my drawing supplies and am getting back at er! dat's what I'm talking about!

elae

03-11-2009, 06:24 PM

Draw hard, Aristocrazy! :D I love getting new supplies... I have a little bag full of non-photo blue pencils just waiting to be sharpened into stabby little tools. What fun.

Found this link via Twitter, and figured some writers here would find it useful. Atomic-Robo.com's How to Write a Comic Script (http://www.atomic-robo.com/?p=446)

What kind of lighting do we have? Where and when are we? Is it indoor or outdoor? Day or night? Who is in this scene? Which characters are speaking and what are their names? How are the characters dressed? What are their moods? What are they doing or what are they preparing to do? Are there specific items within the set that the characters will interact with, and if so what and where are they? Answer those questions and you’re done!
Usually you’ll do that for each panel unless of course little or nothing has changed between panels.

How do the scripts of everyone here look? Similar to the ones he's posted? Post a few lines here!

Aristocrazy

03-11-2009, 07:36 PM

I try to be as "clean and concise" as possible as if writing a film spec. script historically... however I am/will be getting more detailed I believe as the paranormal aspect is not getting across to the readers as much as I'd hoped
_____________

PAGE TWO
PANEL 1

3/4 top left panel zooms in on the backs two children at the back of the crowd: one is a male 12 year old ragged street urchin nicknamed DINO who strains to open a bottle of wine in front of him while the other is a comparably well-off 4 year old girl nicknamed WINGNUT who has short brown hair tied in pigtails with frayed ribbon. Wingnut is in a cute but dusty dress and sits atop Dino's shoulders in a futile effort to see the deck: although her eye-level is only at shoulder height of the people ahead of her.

Wingnut's fragile, rusted wagon which has the front half filled with grapes is behind the two. Nobody in the crowd looks like they particularly want to be there except the curious kids.

WINGNUT
(frustrated)
Gah!

VOICE #1
(coming from behind curtain; no balloon, like sfx)
Aaahh Aaah!
______________
for the record I don't abuse balloon types... just a coincidence in this case >.>
What kind of lighting do we have? should have stated earlier... edit i spose
Where and when are we? stated earlier
Is it indoor or outdoor? stated earlier
Day or night? stated earlier
Who is in this scene? Dino and Wingnut and... Voice #1 -_-"
Which characters are speaking and what are their names? WINGNUT and ... VOICE#1...
How are the characters dressed? Check for Wingnut... nothing for dino past ragged Urchin
What are their moods? Check! Frustrated for wingnut. No info on Dino
What are they doing or what are they preparing to do? Check! looking over crowd
Are there specific items within the set that the characters will interact with, and if so what and where are they? Check! wine bottle in front of him!

edit: interesting... i put dialogue under the name~ I shall consider doing the ":" way though.

Eric San Juan

04-08-2009, 10:41 PM

Some random advice (intended for writers) to toss into the thread: Don't get too hung up on writing what 'camera' shot to use and what angle to use and so on and so forth. Trust your artist. They are a visual artist; you are probably not. When you're Alan Moore you can worry about having exacting, precise panel descriptions ...

But you're not Alan Moore. And even Alan Moore knows enough to trust his artists.

If you make your artist part of the creative process, if you allow THEM to be creative, too, a better story will be the result. It's like working with editors. So many writers hate editors, gripe about editors, complain about editors. Guess what? Editors are there to make your work better. I've sat on both sides of the desk (though not in comics), and when I'm on the writing side, I welcome an active editor with open arms.

The same should be said for your artist. Allow them to contribute. Be open minded. Watch as your story is better than you expected.

There are times when a very specific image is necessary for the story. When that's the case, indicate as much and say why. Help them understand what you're trying to get across and why it's important that it be drawn in a certain way. If you give them insight into the workings of your mind, they'll be more in tune with your story and more likely to make creative choices that complement what you're doing.

But also have the guts and self-confidence enough to allow them to break free from your exacting script and be creative. That's right, guts. And self-confidence. Because that's what it takes; confidence enough in your skills that a few changes don't send you into a ballistic fury. Being open0minded is wonderful.

Trust your artist.

Finally, on scripting, there is no One Right Way to write a comic. There are dozens of approaches and the only "right" one is the one that results in a good story.

Great discussion in this thread so far. I look forward to reading the whole thing.

Ken

06-08-2009, 01:26 PM

... yep. The art should be integral to the writing, and vice versa.

AllieGirl

07-26-2009, 10:37 PM

I believe it makes sense to pay the illustrator- I know I'd want to be paid for my writing!

This is where I'm thrown. As a writer with an original script, no one is paying me to come up with the idea and write it. I'm taking the same risk as the artist. We both give our time and talent and hope it pays off with a sale. Why must the writer pay the artist? I do understand there are materials that cost the artist some money, whereas the writer has virtually no expense except time. But other than that . . .

Roslyne

08-28-2009, 01:38 AM

Hey Word, Tea-Man, and all. Read this whole thread/talk show, and I have to say I feel better about writing my first comic than ever.

I happen to be both artist and writer in my endeavor, but as I have no intention of having it published, (I may post it on the web somewhere, maybe,) I don't have to worry about things like deadlines. :wag:

I could ask about the web-comic world, but I'm not sure how helpful that would be.

Instead, I wanted to ask about drama, fantasy, realism, and believability: as a seventeen-year-old, I get to shamelessly admit that I'm going to write a fantasy/love story. (It'll have it's dose of epic destruction and face-punching as well, but that's not the focus.) But I'm not looking to create a world to escape to as much as I'm looking to relate the nuances and subtleties of real world in more directly visual terms. What I'm trying to get to is this: How does a comic writer weave reality into the fantasy they're creating? What makes things like superpowers and magic and true love believable? What allows a reader to relate?

Thanks and gratitude for the advice in advance, and for all other crap you've been spouting in here! I'm a fan.

timothy1238

01-20-2010, 11:21 AM

Comic generally depends on the process of writing.It is very difficult to make anyone laugh.
________________________
Limo Hire (http://www.lux-limo.co.uk)

BigWords

02-15-2010, 07:43 AM

If anyone wants published comic scripts to check out for formatting (or if you're merely curious about the extent of some proposals) then I suggest you bookmark The Comic Book Script Archive (http://www.comicbookscriptarchive.com/). You MUST read Alan Moore's Twilight Of The Superheroes proposal. That is an order. :)

Mark Young

04-21-2010, 12:47 PM

I must be confused as to the definition of "comic" here. What I'm reading in this thread seems contrary to what I thought of one. I assumed we're all talking about comic books likened to graphic novels, but everything I've read (albeit somewhat limited I will admit) seem to be done by one person (story, panels, and art).

I'm guessing we're not talking about "Sunday funnies" or "web comics". Sorry if that sounds dumb, but I have people pushing me to try and publish a comic strip my cousin and I developed but I just can't draw it [well]. So the thread intrigued me.

Miss Plum

04-21-2010, 08:17 PM

myrmidon

04-21-2010, 09:44 PM

This is where I'm thrown. As a writer with an original script, no one is paying me to come up with the idea and write it. I'm taking the same risk as the artist. We both give our time and talent and hope it pays off with a sale. Why must the writer pay the artist? I do understand there are materials that cost the artist some money, whereas the writer has virtually no expense except time. But other than that . . .

I think a lot of artists (most of whom are writers themselves) would liken doing the art on someone else's project to being hired to write an article freelance, or some such. In other words, they have their own projects that they're going to work on for free...not unlike you with your novel. But to take time out of their own work, for a project (that they are hopefully interested in and passionate about to a degree) but that is likely not their ideal and perfect project, they expect to be paid, the same way you would expect to be paid if you were hired to write an article about something that was not your ideal and perfect project (like your novel or graphic novel/comic). Does that make sense?

It is also true that materials can be very expensive - you'd be shocked how expensive - especially paper - if they are not drawing digitally. Additionally, having been on both sides as writer and artist, I can say pretty much unequivocally that though writing can be very difficult, take a long time, and present its own challenges, art definitely takes longer. Every time. It's incredibly time consuming...especially if it's not just pencils but fully inked and/or colored worked. That's like "drawing" the same book four times. Once to lay it out and thumbnail it, once to pencil it, once to ink it, and a third to color it. And that's if you're NOT having the artist do the actual text...if they're also doing that then add ANOTHER time consuming pass.

Since it is all your original material that you are talking about, I'm assuming you feel like you will own the rights to that material? And just pay the artist some fee once you get paid for it? Or are you planning to share rights? If you're planning to share rights then you may be able to get an artist on board for free if they believe enough in the project (a huge success story on this tip would be Robert Kirkman's The Walking Dead...which was his original script, but he shares rights fully with the original artist Tony Moore, who only penciled the first handful of issues). So Tony Moore continues to get paid for TWD, even though he left long ago...which to some people doesn't make sense, but the harsh reality is that without Tony Moore's phenomenal art work...the project never would have been picked up and Robert Kirkman would be splitting exactly nothing. Which would be a shame since it's now going to be a tv show on AMC. :)

If you're not planning to share rights, then I tend to think it's only fair of an artist to ask to be paid for their work. Comics is a tough tough business. Maybe not tougher than prose...but as a writer without an artist or without the art ability themselves...I think it can feel that way. It can leave you stranded with a great idea/story and the feeling of no way to get it out there.

I would encourage, as I always do in these threads, that writers with a project and in need of an artist go to comic-cons and build relationships with artists. Especially the smaller press cons like APE - Alternative Press Expo (San Francisco), MoCCA Fest (NYC), Wonder Con (San Francisco), Stumptown Comics Fest (Portland), SPX (Maryland - Bethesda), SPACE (Columbus, Ohio), STAPLE (Austin, Texas), TCAF - Toronto Comics Arts Festival (Toronto) just to name a few. Take business cards (or whatever) and sample pages of your script and meet some people. Tons of young up and comers go here to meet artists and sell their mini-comics or print versions of their web comics, and a lot of them are very talented and trying to "break in", not unlike you, so they might be interested in a team up.

Mark Young:
I must be confused as to the definition of "comic" here. What I'm reading in this thread seems contrary to what I thought of one. I assumed we're all talking about comic books likened to graphic novels, but everything I've read (albeit somewhat limited I will admit) seem to be done by one person (story, panels, and art).

I'm guessing we're not talking about "Sunday funnies" or "web comics". Sorry if that sounds dumb, but I have people pushing me to try and publish a comic strip my cousin and I developed but I just can't draw it [well]. So the thread intrigued me.

Mark - I think the original op is talking about the fact that he/she has written a comic (or a graphic novel) like a Batman comic (or any variation thereof) and that they need an artist. A lot of comics - especially of the more indie variety are written/drawn by the same person...Charles Burns' Black Hole as a good example, Gabrielle Bell's Lucky, Ross Campbell's Wet Moon...the list is huge. But most of the mainstream monthly comic and graphic novel market is written by one person and drawn by another and in fact a sole creator/writer/artist is rather rare in the overall scope of comics as a whole. For writer/artist pairings look at anything from Alan Moore and Dave Gibbon's Watchmen to Greg Rucka and Steve Lieber's Whiteout to I'd say 95% (maybe more?) of the monthly comic book floppy output.

I think JH Williams III (a phenomenal artist) is planning to do both writing and art chores on his first arc of the new forthcoming Batwoman comic, but even there he's brought a co-writer on board to assist him, and he's set up a fill-in artist already to come in for the second arc...because he knows it's going to be a stretch for him to do what he wants to do and also be on time and not fall behind. Admirable that he's thinking so far ahead.

So yes, in short, it can be done both ways. As a single creator creating a single vision, or as a collaboration between artist and writer.

As for a comic strip. I hope you do it. I can be hugely rewarding, though also quite time consuming. The good news for a comic strip, unlike a comic book or graphic novel is that there is a great built in web audience for web comics and if you can get their attention you can really get a following at a minimum of cost to you. Good Luck!