Wanted: Writers of Westerns [Archive] - Absolute Write Water Cooler

Festus

02-14-2007, 04:04 AM

Howdy folks, I'm Festus. I'd like to get a forum started up for Westerns, I'm told the only way to get it done is to get other writers of Westerns to get together.

Well, I need to know who yall are, and if you're interested in this.

Lots of folks seem to think Westerns are dead meat. I don't.

It'd surely be nice to have other Western Writers to communicate with.

I really need some positive comments on this so I'll have backup data at the end of the poll to try and get the western forum started. Just the poll by itself won't do it - assuming we stay in the lead.

Negative comments aren't needed, those folks can just bypass the western forum, though you may well be missing some good reading. There will probably be westerns posted with paranormal, fantasy and SF in them. I've got some of that in one of my manuscripts now.

It may well give us some badly needed exposure to agents and publishers with our own genre. Please give it some thought.

Festus

Cav Guy

02-17-2007, 06:20 AM

For those who may think that this isn't needed because the Western Writers of America exists, let me explain something about that organization. It may have started as an association for fiction writers, but it has now been shifted VERY strongly toward the non-fiction side of things. They don't openly network anymore, and the membership requirements are almost impossible to meet for a starting *fiction* author. It's easier for non-fiction because there is an articles market.

Westerns aren't dead...though they tend to be consumed by other categories (historical fiction springs to mind) and there is no functional short fiction market for them anymore. I for one would like to see something like this come together. The Western is an American art form, and it has formed a major part of our popular culture (and shaped how others see us...for good or ill).

Ol' Fashioned Girl

02-17-2007, 06:55 AM

I've been trying to get this western outta my head and onto my harddrive for months... maybe a forum will get me goin'. ;)

alleycat

02-17-2007, 06:59 AM

I don't write many westerns, but I have written a couple of stories.

I would participate occasionally if the forum was active.

Little Red Barn

02-17-2007, 07:20 AM

I love westerns...

Puma

02-17-2007, 06:30 PM

Festus

02-17-2007, 07:45 PM

Puma: Thank you, My western contained elements of the paranormal - in the form of an Indian ghost. Remember Gene Autry? He had sci Fi in his latter movies - Westerns. Louis L'Amour? Alternate Universe where old cowboy had inadvertingly wound up, also ghosts. So I must disagree.

The main point is this: Westerns, while interest may be waning, are a complete Genre in their own right. For the few remaining writers of this genre to have a chance of publication, we need to capture the eye of potential agents and publishers. Many of whom I feel would skip right over the Historical Forum.

When I think of Historical, my first thought is non-fiction, or medival, or ancient greek/romans etc. Not westerns.

I've written a parody of a western that while humorous, the nuances of the parody would go completely over the heads of those not familiar with the original western author, which if you read westerns, you surely would be.

Historical just doesn't fit the nitch of westerns. We need our own spot.

Cav Guy, Ol' Fashioned Girl, alley cat, Kimmi, You're the types of folks I've been seeking, if you know of others, please direct them here.

I may be the old Don fighting a windmill, but I use six-shooters, not a lance. Read the remarks of my partners below, I think we may surprise a whole bunch of folks with the submissions we get.

Ornery Old Festus

Cav Guy

02-17-2007, 08:06 PM

Hi Festus - Comment - to me paranormal, fantasy, and sci-fi immediately throws whatever out of a western classification. There are forums for those and no constraints that material cannot be western. (Remember the movie Westworld with Yul Bryner - definitely a sci-fi, not a western). And, because westerns are basically in historical settings, what's wrong with posting them on the historical forum (which was created not that long ago)? Historical is still not getting that many posts in a day - my suspicion is that westerns would be even fewer. My suggestion is to post westerns that are not sci-fi in historical. If historical starts to get a lot of traffic, then it might be worth while to ask about splitting westerns out. Puma

I think one reason you don't see many posts in Historical is because Romance isn't included. This is a good example of how genres split and reshape themselves over time. There was a point not too long ago when a Historical was considered a romance almost by default. Not so now. And I've seen works by Terry Johnston (a Western author) shelved in both locations because he's using historical events (more a novel of the West possibly than a traditional Western, but it's still a western).

I think Festus' point is more that traditional Western types aren't going to look for Westerns in a Historicals thread any more than a fantasy writer would look for fantasy in, say, Mystery. Of course, us Western types could just set up a couple of heavy networking threads within Historical and go from there. Of course, we need to be active within those threads. Sitting around waiting for someone else to do it just ain't gonna make it happen.

I write both Westerns and military-historical fiction, and find the general category Historical to be somewhat confining. I agree with Festus that most people think of Historical as something that happens before 1600 or so. Maybe we just need to redefine the category through our discussions and contributions here.

Cav Guy

02-17-2007, 08:08 PM

I've been trying to get this western outta my head and onto my harddrive for months... maybe a forum will get me goin'. ;)

Feel free to post some of your ideas here, OFG. That's how I wrote my first Western, actually. It just came out. I never really read Westerns...I'm more into the history than the fiction. But it just started, and once it did I couldn't stop them. Now they're about all I write in terms of fiction.

Festus

02-17-2007, 10:53 PM

Cav Guy. You've raised some good, valid points.

But I'm just as stubborn as the mule my namesake rides.

I fully mean to have our own Western Forum, and will work my butt off trying to achieve it. I just don't feel that Historical is the place for us to be. like a fish out of the water. Though I do a lot of historical research on my stories.

Western books are only limited by the imagination of the authors, it is indeed an important part of our history, and many cowboys are yet to be known, like the cowboys of Florida at the turn of the century and beyond (which I have many stories about, since my family was numbered among them).

Forgive this stubborn old man, my friends, but I feel passionately about this matter.

Festus

veinglory

02-17-2007, 11:47 PM

It may be a fish of another color, but I don't see how Western can be other than one of the more distinctive subsets of historical--like regency.

dpaterso

02-18-2007, 12:39 AM

It may be a fish of another color, but I don't see how Western can be other than one of the more distinctive subsets of historical--like regency.
Point taken, but I'm of the opinion that Western is a genre in its own right as well as, technically speaking, and perhaps less significantly, a historical sub-genre. It's not just a period and place, it's a corpus of distinctive, powerful and evocative themes. Just by looking at some of the replies above you can see that Western supports its own sub-genres. I voted yes, and would bookmark such a forum and read as often as time permits.

-Derek

MacAllister

02-18-2007, 12:52 AM

Okay. I'm here. I'm listening. I'm willing to be convinced.

veinglory

02-18-2007, 01:12 AM

I think there are many subgenres who have made their own place in the world--but also lost it. About 10% of the books I own are westerns--at one time it was more like a half. I read True Grit and at an impressionable age and rode the peak of the genre with Zane and Louis and loved the lesser known yellow-backers like Oliver Strange. I particularly love the few cross genre paranormal westerns like --damn it now I can find one--you must know it, a series from the 70s about a gun slnger whose girl was stolen by a warlock and imprisoned in a magical glass coffin? Western mainstream romance in general doesn't do much for me but it is helping keep the genre from flatlining.

I guess if there was a western forum I would give it a look--especially if it was one where my gay erotic romance western "counted" (if you know what I mean). But would I lay odds on such a forum being viable in the long term... not really. I think the genre's hibernation is going to last a little longer. But why not give it a go and see? You may have only gotten 5 bites here but there are other places to recruit and in 'fan' genres the word gets around.

alleycat

02-18-2007, 01:13 AM

Okay. I'm here. I'm listening. I'm willing to be convinced.
But more importantly . . . can you be bribed?

MacAllister

02-18-2007, 01:20 AM

The problem is, of course, that this is already a very large board--and daunting to navigate, for newcomers. Whether or not an entire room in justified for what's arguably limited interest in a perhaps fading genre...

Festus

02-18-2007, 01:47 AM

Aw, c'mon Mac. "It's such a large board" If all the main topics can't be read in seconds, person shouldn't be a writer. Put us at the very bottom of it, if poor darlings are worn out from reading whats above us, they can stop before they reach us.

I remember back in the 60's, when I read Sci Fi and Fantasy, they were often mixed in with childrens books on stuck away in a hard to find corner.

On this site, they are in the prominence, which I support. Back then? No way.

Westerns are not dead, for they are going on right now, this day. I suspect there all more people out there that long for good writing in this genre that even I can imagine.

Its arguable that any genre may be swallowed by another, but I don't feel that it's Westerns turn quite yet.

Negativism seems to have taken hold of many things, we want to accomplish something positive, that is what this proposed Western Forum is all about.

Are we a threat to the other genres? Not hardly. Are you afraid that a bunch of red necks might swell the ranks of AW? Get real.

I've noted that there is a bunch of people whose views I don't support, or whose genre I don't particularly like. Doesn't mean I'm going to campaign against them, and if I don't like the genre, I stay away from it.

Meeting some of those folks in AW Chat has expanded my views on many things, others it hadn't affected at all. Thing is, there is room enough for all of us to get along.

Give us a chance.

Festus

MacAllister

02-18-2007, 02:14 AM

Look down...

Puma

02-18-2007, 02:38 AM

Not sure what Mac meant by her last post.

If there were a westerns forum, it would be one I'd look at. But, I remember all the arguments and time it took to get a historical forum. My original historical posts are in Other. Matter of fact, most of my posts of pieces of my work are in Other because I don't fit the genre definitions. But, I'm not complaining.

BTW, Festus, in my mind Indian ghosts or spirits in westerns are not paranormal - that's the way the cowboy movies were back when I was a kid. Puma

veinglory

02-18-2007, 02:43 AM

There is, it's just below where we are now :)

MacAllister

02-18-2007, 02:44 AM

;)
I meant just what I said: Look down (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=142).

It's really important to me to try and be responsive to what the members want. So we'll give it a try. There are plenty of things I'll have to say no to--the forum to discuss favorite TV shows, for instance.

But I'll confess having a soft spot for westerns, my own self. So this was an easy one.

Ol' Fashioned Girl

02-18-2007, 03:07 AM

Feel free to post some of your ideas here, OFG. That's how I wrote my first Western, actually. It just came out. I never really read Westerns...I'm more into the history than the fiction. But it just started, and once it did I couldn't stop them. Now they're about all I write in terms of fiction.

Happy to, Cav... let's move it to the new Western Thread (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55560)! :)

Rolling Thunder

02-18-2007, 03:34 AM

I voted 'yes' cause every writer deserves a little piece of the back forty to mosey on.

Uh...just clean up after the cows, please.

Festus

02-18-2007, 06:52 AM

I am very grateful, thank you Mac. Thank you.

Festus

Chumplet

02-18-2007, 06:57 AM

I heard somewhere that Westerns are on the rise again. I myself read a few in my youth, and I'm enjoying critting a Western Romance that a colleague is working on.

I just might write one!

Mae

02-18-2007, 07:12 AM

I love reading them- open for crit work if anyone is interested

skelly

02-18-2007, 04:45 PM

I voted for it. I could see myself becoming more interested in this genre and participating in this forum. I love a good old-fashioned Western. I might even be inclined to experiment in this genre if I could learn a little more about it. So, yeah. I'm onboard. If the board suffers from an excess of forums, I would much prefer a Western forum over something substantially less useful. TIO, for example.

Rolling Thunder

02-18-2007, 06:03 PM

I would much prefer a Western forum over something substantially less useful. TIO, for example.

Ah, but every forum needs a sandbox, Skelly. ;)

I heard somewhere that Westerns are on the rise again.

All it will take is for one new western movie, with a quality plot, and the western book market will take off again. Having a good MS in the works at the right time is a strong plus when agents start searching.

Good luck with your new forum! :)

ritinrider

02-18-2007, 06:23 PM

okay, if this is where we discuss our westerns in progress here I go. I was, with reservation, calling this thing an historical because an editor told me westerns had to have male mc, men didn't want to read about women shooting it out (I know, Calamity Jane comes to mind) with anyone. But in the chat room Festus reminded me of a LAmour book about a woman (now I have to find it and read it again). All that is the longwinded way to say that I need help with mine.

MC is female single mother who must leave her place of residence with her child. The child is about 7. They travel by mule (or horse, probably mule though). They leave IT (Indian Territory) what is now SW Oklahoma (down around Ardmore area for any Okies reading this). The story takes place around 1864. Her family is in Gerogia, Tennessee, someplace like that, I haven't really settled on that yet either although I'm leaning towards the hills of Tennessee. She doesn't want to go back there for a couple of reasons. Does she even need a destination in mind (just now thought of that)? The story is basically about her trip and the problems she encounters, how she solves them, and how she grows as a person.

So what do ya'll think? Does she need a destination in mind? Do you have any suggestions about where she could be headed?

Thanks
ritinrider
(no, I don't ride horses, or mules, or animal)

Ol' Fashioned Girl

02-18-2007, 06:29 PM

If the year were 1862 or '63, she could be headed west to flee the war. There wasn't a lot of activity in SE Oklahoma, but the Battle of Honey Springs (http://www.cr.nps.gov/nr/twhp/wwwlps/lessons/68honey/68honey.htm)was in July of '63. I'm sure talk of that could scare a mother into moving on. ;)

ritinrider

02-18-2007, 07:08 PM

Thanks Jen, I could change the year, I've changed everything else except that and the reason for her fleeing. In the original, the mother and child lived in Texas near her parents, who had moved from Georgia or Tenn. who knows. Her brother was killed in the Civila War, and her husband made it home, but died shortly after. Her father left Texas for Arkansas (I have no idea why Arkansas) with his family, her included. One of the reason for her leaving (according to family lore) was that her inlaws wanted to take the baby away from her.

When I first heard the story as a child, no one said anything about her going with family so I always thought it was just her and the baby. When I learned she was with her family I didn't think that made as good a story. Besides, I'd been working on the other variations in my head for years. In fact the original story (in my head) had her leaving Georgia (or Tenn), but that involved too much research about available transportation, and again, where was she going? Since in that version she was leaving not only her inlaws, but her family as well.

I actually have one version started where she was left in Texas, and was following her mother. But that mc, was a lot stronger than the one I'm starting with now. Still, I guess she could start out strong, and just get stronger.

Thanks for your help Jen. I still don't know what I'm going to do, but I'm getting closer. This is one reason I never tried writing it before, I have more questions than answers.

ritinrider

Cav Guy

02-18-2007, 08:34 PM

Give me a timeframe and I'll help you find a destination. The history of the West is one of my "big interests.":)

Cav Guy

02-18-2007, 08:47 PM

It may be a fish of another color, but I don't see how Western can be other than one of the more distinctive subsets of historical--like regency.

I know the forums have already been created, but I'd like to take a moment to answer this (or at least ramble colorfully).

What makes the Western distinctive is the impact it's had on American culture, as well as how that culture is viewed around the world. In Germany, for example, Karl May was for years one of their most popular authors. He wrote Westerns. Any number of books have been written about the influence the Western has had both on culture and our view of our own history. During the 1950s and 1960s the Western dominated television and gave us one of our longest-running dramatic series (Gunsmoke). John Wayne became a household word through the Western, and it also got Clint Eastwood his start.

Sure, there's the formula Western, but there are other authors who are expanding the horizons. And the Western is also unique in that it had some of its impact during the historical period it was covering. The dime novels shaped many Easterners' views of the West, and Charles King faithfully (more so that he admitted to) documented the lives of people in the Frontier Army (making him the first recognized popular Western author - coming before Wister - but he was classified as a Romance author because that's what novels were considered in those days).

I don't really think the genre's dead. I do think there are only a handful of really good authors in the field these days. Terry Johnston's passing robbed us of one of the few really good historical western authors out there, and the only one who presented the Frontier Army's story in any way. Fred Chiaventone is another, but he's doing other things and only occasionally graces us with a fine Army Western.

The last time the Western "died" we got Lonesome Dove and Unforgiven in close to rapid succession. So who knows what will happen this time.

skelly

02-19-2007, 01:48 AM

rit! OFG! Boy, you knew if they ever started a thread like this a bunch of Okies would show up. Mmmm Hmmm. Yup. :)

MacAllister

02-19-2007, 02:32 AM

It's part of my grand plan to keep y'all in one place...

ritinrider

02-19-2007, 03:32 AM

won't work Mac, we okies tend to ramble and wonder. No one's managed to rope all of us at the same time. There's always one or two strays that'll let the others out.

Skelly, where's your story idea?

ritinrider

skelly

02-19-2007, 11:57 AM

I posted about it over where they're herdin em all up. I'm headed up to the store here in a few to grab some stuff ... and by golly I think I'll see if I can pick me up a Western or two. I just finished the 3rd revision of my YA and I'm about sick of ghosts and 17-year-olds.

skelly

02-20-2007, 01:39 AM

So I got Zane Grey, Riders of the Purple Sage. The only uncut, uncensored edition! no less. Why in the hell would they have to censor Zane Grey? The original copyright is 1912. Barmaids a little too frisky?

Cav Guy

02-20-2007, 01:44 AM

He might have said "son-of-a-bitch" or something equally inflammatory. Though that was one of the most common expressions in the Old West vocabulary it didn't show up much in print until much later. If memory serves, even Owen Wister didn't use it.

JeanneTGC

02-23-2007, 04:05 AM

Happy this is here. My novel set in the Old West (which Bruce Holland Rogers drilled into me to say, as opposed to Western, because it's not a genre Western) is about to go out to agents.

I look forward to having some others who are keeping this alive, aside from McMurtry. :D

Dutch Henry

06-08-2008, 07:53 AM

Well I just found Absolute Write a few days ago and Festus, thank you for the forum! Over the past 14 months I've been busy writing a trilogy that spans the years 1850 to 1910.

I found a few sites like this one when I began seeking agents to query and I thought the only genre left was fantasy. I don't want to seem brash but doggone it. (I would have said dammit but I read the thread on cuss words)

I have started my fourth novel about a family on the emigrant trail in 1855.

You have managed to start quite a number of threads here on the Western's forum. I intend to read them all. I have found my home away from home! I can guarantee one thing, from time to time I'll be pesterin' ya!
Private e-mails gladly accepted.

Gitty up - Dutch

JeanneTGC

06-08-2008, 12:04 PM

Welcome, Dutch, to AW as a whole and the Western forum in particular! You'll enjoy it here!

dpaterso

06-08-2008, 12:35 PM

Nice to have you drop in, Dutch. Throw a blanket over your horse and come have a coffee by the fire. :)

-Derek

Puma

06-08-2008, 05:11 PM

Dutch Henry

06-09-2008, 12:34 AM

Welocme, Dutch. Comments and questions are always welcome. This is a pretty congenial bunch.

Have you found your way to the Western forum in Share Your Work yet? It's the next to last forum on the SYW page and has some interesting reading (also shows how we all help each other out). Puma

Hey guys thanks, and Puma no I've not gotten there yet, BUT I WILL, but be kind, I'm like an old horse who always pushed cows and now they are fixin' to clean me up an' put me in a parade!

Just sent a query for my first novel to Kim Lionetti this morning.
Am also slaving over a chapter synopsis for Verna Dreisbach, who responded in a day to my query asking for 50 pages and the chap synopsis.

I'll try to post something today so you guys can tell me if I have any hope. - Dutch

Cav Guy

06-09-2008, 08:27 PM

Hey Dutch!

Hope you have better luck with Kim than I did. Finding an agent for Westerns is tough work...best of luck in your search!

Dutch Henry

06-09-2008, 11:15 PM

Hey Dutch!

Hope you have better luck with Kim than I did. Finding an agent for Westerns is tough work...best of luck in your search!

Seems tough alright. I'll let you all know how I make out with Kim.

Is there anyone here who knows of agents who actively work in our genre? I hate to ask because I don't want to sound like I'm too lazy to do my own searching. But I've gone to a lot of the usual places and put 'Western' in the search, found a few then when I read their bio or web, they don't have it mentioned.

I queried Verna Dreisbach because she likes history, native american Indians, and spirituality. She also is a life long horse lover.

My first installment in the trilogy is really not even close to your typical western. Much more frontier like I'd say. Lots of Sioux religion, lots of horse stuff, and a hoot of an Army scout. Oh yea the MC is in it to.

I love this forum! - Dutch

Dutch Henry

06-10-2008, 02:26 AM

Hey Dutch!

Hope you have better luck with Kim than I did. Finding an agent for Westerns is tough work...best of luck in your search!

Hey Cav -- Just heard from Kim -
-------------------------

Thank you so much for submitting your query to BookEnds. While your work sounds intriguing, I'm afraid I just don't think it's for me.

I wish you the best of luck.

Sincerely,

Kim Lionetti
---------------------

Guess that's a no. Right?

Puma

06-10-2008, 03:32 AM

At least that was a pretty quick response - and a response. Not as common as one would hope for from the agents. Puma

Dutch Henry

06-10-2008, 03:46 AM

I coulda waited a day or two for this news though. Dag gum it.

Nathan Bransford was quick too.

Puma

06-10-2008, 05:49 AM

Some are very quick, and some are almost non-existant. If you haven't heard on an e-query in a week, there's a good chance you never will. Of course, I have had a couple who got back to me six months later - those make me wonder. Puma

Cav Guy

06-10-2008, 06:46 PM

Hey Cav -- Just heard from Kim -
-------------------------

Thank you so much for submitting your query to BookEnds. While your work sounds intriguing, I'm afraid I just don't think it's for me.

I wish you the best of luck.

Sincerely,

Kim Lionetti
---------------------

Guess that's a no. Right?

Yeah. That's pretty much what I got, although it took a bit longer.

Unique

06-13-2008, 06:15 AM

Intriguing is a good word.

Send it somewhere else.

.05 indexed to inflation.

JeanneTGC

06-13-2008, 11:07 PM

Dutch, have you tossed your query letter up on the Share Your Work forum and let some of the good critiquers here have a go with it? Very helpful, especially if you're new to submitting.

Same with first chapter or first part of first chapter (depending on length). Never hurts to have a critical eye that didn't write it themselves take a look. :D

No matter what, keep on keeping on. Perseverance is what it takes.