What would an athiest genre romance look like?

[veinglory]

I was reading on a blog about someone who wanted to find atheist romance fiction. At first I was a bit confused. I guess I haven't thought about it but a lot of romance doesn't specify religion and plenty is in a paranormal setting where rigid religious beliefs are not presented.

But then I thought it might be like the distinction between romance with people of color and interracial romance which tend to specifically address race as an issue in our world. But I am still wondering exactly how atheism might fill the same sort of role in a narrative. Any ideas?

[Meerkat]

Good one. Perhaps two characteristics would be predominant: first, that what two people achieve together and are to each other here and now would end, here and now, at least for them (no linking up at the great Rally Point); and second, that their fidelity and interactions would be based on simply wanting to do right by the other and make something greater than the sum of its parts, and not in fear of showing up on a cosmic naughty list.

[Kate Thornton]

Maybe the protagonists could finalize their love in a civil ceremony. It would be nice to see the conflict involve past relationships that faltered over religious beliefs ("She pictured a fairytale wedding, but he knew he could not go through with a church ceremony..." "His family's deeply-held beliefs scared her; would they ever understand her feelings?")

It's a very scary thing to reveal atheism to a prospective partner who may be religious or at least hold a belief in a supreme being of some sort. ("You aren't serious," he said, "you have to believe in something...")

I think you could really be on to something here.

[Anonymous Traveler]

I was reading on a blog about someone who wanted to find atheist romance fiction. .... Any ideas?

Dunno. I have a couple of WIP without spiritual reference but I'm not sure if that would qualify. I would guess that having references to not having faith rather that plainly leaving out any spiritually would be the test.

[veinglory]

Yes, I wonder hw much of the readership you might alienate by having a heroine specify that she is athiest--but I can really say how many romances I read where the heroine could be, or clearly was atheist. I guess I never had it in mind.

[benbradley]

I suppose (I don't recall having read the genre) that many romance stories could be called secular (as opposed to atheist) in that the topic of religion doesn't come up. When it does and there's a non-believer, the story could turn out different ways. If the non-believer becomes a believer at or before the end of the story, it would almost certainly be considered a religious story. If the non-believer remains a non-believer (but perhaps has "personal growth" in some other direction), even if surrounded by believers, it would be considered an atheist story.

Of course, in either situation the author might show how the character was mistaken to end up the way he or she did, making it a cautionary tale.

There could be a "secular" story in which there's no mention of religion and a couple gets married at the courthouse, but they could do this for "elopment" reasons or wanting a fast, relatively anonymous wedding, rather than not desiring a traditional wedding at a church and a minister performing the ceremony, and thus it is not neccesarily two atheists getting married.

It seems to me any "atheist" story would have to be within the religious context of society (at least in the USA where a large majority of people believe in some sort of Deity), and the atheist character(s) would stand out among others.

[Cathy C]

This is an interesting question. I guess that I tend to insert religions for most of my characters just because of the "Happily Ever After" requirement of marriage (or at least the promise of marriage.) And too, my co-author is quite happily religious so she often adds things in that make her happy. Now, I did make the hero in a WIP I've been working on an active skeptic (in the true definition sense) so I could probably expand that out to make him atheist. :idea: Hmm . . . I'll have to work on that, I think.

I think the "redemption" issue would have to be the same as an anti-hero. The character has to remain true to him/herself, from beginning to end. I presume that would mean a civil ceremony. Maybe a wedding on a ship at sea could work well, romantically speaking.

Sometimes "bending" means a change of perception but in core values, often I have Alpha characters remain as they started, with the OTHER person bending to the core value . . . or at least agreeing to disagree. ;) Often all you get in real life is agreeing to disagree, from religion to politics and beyond. That's the value of love--that it can wash over differences that would otherwise separate people.

Thoughts?

[Higgins]

I suppose (I don't recall having read the genre) that many romance stories could be called secular (as opposed to atheist) in that the topic of religion doesn't come up. When it does and there's a non-believer, the story could turn out different ways. If the non-believer becomes a believer at or before the end of the story, it would almost certainly be considered a religious story. If the non-believer remains a non-believer (but perhaps has "personal growth" in some other direction), even if surrounded by believers, it would be considered an atheist story.

Of course, in either situation the author might show how the character was mistaken to end up the way he or she did, making it a cautionary tale.
It seems to me any "atheist" story would have to be within the religious context of society (at least in the USA where a large majority of people believe in some sort of Deity), and the atheist character(s) would stand out among others.


Well...any kind of conversion can be interesting. In Elizabeth Gaskel's North and South everything hinges on the fact that the MC's father "loses his faith" which doesn't mean he becomes an atheiest, but that he stops being an Anglican. I would think that some kind of not-easily resolvable religious conflict in a romance might be interesting.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

IMO, the ultimate thing in a marriage should be the love the two individuals have for one another. If one person is atheist and the other is not, my personal viewpoint is that their love for one another should be unconditional. I've seen people talk about--especially within a particular religion I was raised in--not marrying someone who did not believe in the said religion.

So basically to me, the idea of one character tolerating the other character's religion (or lack thereof) would be of paramount importance in the kind of romance you're mentioning, Veinglory. Religion or the lack thereof can actually be, as we've all seen here, a major hot-spot for arguments and stuff like that. So the decision on both their parts to respect the other person's belief, I think, could make for some excellent storytelling and a nice amount of conflict within your work.

I hope this helps, and I wish you the very best with your project.

:)

[veinglory]

I am not sure I am ready to tackle it yet. Even in my area (gay/erotic romance) a lot of readers are clearly religious and reader loyalty is key to repeat sales. Am I a coward? Perhaps.... I will be thinking about it a while.

Although I have already written a main character who during the course of the story reconciles his Catholicism with his homosexuality and his partner's pagan beliefs. So maybe it is far less of a deal that I think.

Although I would guess that atheist readers may have had more practise identifying with religious heroes than vice versa?

[beezle]

Avoid making your male love interest a Catholic priest and you're half way there.

[Anonymous Traveler]

Although I would guess that atheist readers may have had more practice identifying with religious heroes than vice versa?

I would be inclined to think that unless a character was blatantly pro or anti something no one would notice. As in life we seldom learn the faith orientation of those we meet, and often it is not really an issue.

gay-were-bishops munching on disoriented fly traps would be an issue (private joke)

[Sean D. Schaffer]

Although I would guess that atheist readers may have had more practise identifying with religious heroes than vice versa?


That could very well be the problem, Veinglory. It's not easy, from what experience I've had in the subject, for a religious individual to reconcile another person's lack of religion. Whereas, like you pointed out, it's probably much easier for an atheist to reconcile another person's faith in a particular deity.

This actually, IMO, could be a good exercise for you, as a writer. The best works, by my own estimation, are the ones that challenge the usual conventional wisdom. At first they might not be well-received because of religious animosity on some readers' part. But I still think the challenge to tolerate other people and their beliefs is really what's going to make or break your work.

I guess the point I'm making is, the issue is not so much religion versus lack of religion, as it is tolerance on both characters' part.


In any case, I don't think you're a coward at all for your sitting back and thinking more on this, Veinglory. I think you're being careful and taking into account everything that needs to be dealt with concerning your work. No cowardice here, but rather common sense. I'm sure whatever your decision is at the last, it will be the right one for you.

Good luck to you.

:)

[veinglory]

Strangely enough one story I am working on at the moment is a speculative fic romance in a future time where theist religion has become largely extinct. The hero feels the need for religion and unearths an underground neoChristian group but in this time the Bible has been completely lost and so there is no doctrine in existence--only the feeling some people have that there is a deity.

I hadn't given it much thought but I suspect this story concept isn't about religion per se, but about being a religious/areligious minority--especially when falling in love with a member of the majority.

Hmmm.

What a busy little unconscious mind I must have. It is kind of fun to try and represent a world when every trace of religion has been erased. And no, it isn't a utopia or a distopia--just a...topia.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

Strangely enough one story I am working on at the moment is a speculative fic romance in a future time where theist religion has become largely extinct. The hero feels the need for religion and unearths an underground neoChristian group but in this time the Bible has been completely lost and so there is no doctrine in existence--only the feeling some people have that there is a deity.

I hadn't given it much thought but I suspect this story concept isn't about religion per se, but about being a religious/areligious minority--especially when falling in love with a member of the majority.

Hmmm.

What a busy little unconscious mind I must have. It is kind of fun to try and represent a world when every trace of religion has been erased. And no, it isn't a utopia or a distopia--just a...topia.


I seem to remember a book about just such a situation, except in this case, the whole world had become Catholic. I wish I remembered the name of the book, but I do remember something about freedom fighters, fighting the Roman Catholic Church for the right to exist or something to that effect.

I wish my unconscious mind was half as busy as yours. I'd be writing up a storm by now.

:)

[David Conner]

I was reading on a blog about someone who wanted to find atheist romance fiction.


What therefore man hath joined together, let not God put asunder.:)

[veinglory]

Meaning?

[C.bronco]

No one could scream Oh God Oh God Oh God!!!

[benbradley]

No one could scream Oh God Oh God Oh God!!!

The old joke is they (we?) scream "Oh my Nonexistent Supreme Being!"

Meaning?
(presumably referring to "What therefore man hath joined together, let not God put asunder.")
It's an "inversion" of (googling...) the verse from Mark 10:9, which I recognize as one of the KJV verses commonly spoken at wedding ceremonies.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Mark+10%3A9

[veinglory]

I got the sources I was just tryong to puzzle out the point. But then I tend to over think things...

[Sean D. Schaffer]

I got the sources I was just tryong to puzzle out the point. But then I tend to over think things...


I know how that goes; I do the same thing. I think I might understand the meaning, but as I'm not the poster in question, I cannot be certain.

Still, I thought it was a witty comment. Interesting take on the subject at hand.

:)

[Kentuk]

Some dude is looking for an atheist romance? Don't think so but it sounds like fun. Set it at a college. She could be the only athiest on campus and he could be the star sophmore seven foot wonder. She is on scholarship challenged by an evangelist who said she was going to give her the opportunity to put her lack of faith to the test. She gets into debates with professors and everyone looks at her. It could have a nice sports ending with her seven foot wonder winning the big game.


Thats a lot of nuts for just two cents.

[David Conner]

Meaning?


Its a joke. I hate to explain a joke, but since it relates to your thread, I will.

What I said is a twist of a bible verse that condemns divorce:
"What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

By twisting it, I intended it to essentially say: "What people do with thier romantic lives is none of God's business."

Now, If I was an Athiest, there would be nothing more to it than that. But I am a Christian. And as a Christian, I conceived the idea in sarcasm, as well as humor. Therefore, yesterday, when I first thought of it, I said to myself, "I have only come here to see what these people talk about. I need to be respectful, and avoid antagonizing anybody." But as some time went by, I thought it was just too funny to leave alone. I thought about taking it to the humor forum and presenting it within its context. But I knew it would lose its funniness (if it is indeed, funny) with too much periphery, just as it has now. So, what I conceived in sarcasm, was manifested only for what humor value it may have, nothing more. I hope that you are laughing, not cursing.

[Devil Ledbetter]

I'm not writing a romance, but when my characters marry in a civil ceremony, the MC brings his own bible which turns out to be a copy of Dawkins The Ancestors Tale covered in a stretchy bible cover he picked up at a Catholic head shop.

I got the idea from my sister, who was told to bring a special family bible for her swearing in as postmaster. She brought a dictionary.

Nobody noticed.

[Cathy C]

What a fascinating idea for a story, Devil! That idea just might come in handy in a future book. :)

[McDuff]

I dunno, Bridget Jones' Diary?

The only thing I could think of would be to run a spiritual journey away from faith in God alongside a coming of age or growing up story in which someone realises that fairytales in relationships don't come true either. It could work, it could also come across as very contrived and polemical, which wouldn't really work well as a romance.

[pepperlandgirl]

The problem is that if an atheist genre romance existed, it is almost definitely about one of the characters losing and finding their faith, as though faith was nothing more than a set of car keys. I honestly can't think of any recent book or movie where an avowed atheist was allowed to remained an avowed atheist.

All the characters in my books are atheists by default. Nobody is involved in any sort of faith, ever thinks about or mentions god, ever has a church wedding (though one can be an atheist and be married in a church. I was.), nobody ever prays...God and religion is always a complete non-issue for them, probably because it's a complete non-issue for me.

I think the reason romance books about atheists are a rare beast has already been touched upon. Romance readers are, by and large, a conservative group and the majority of people in this country identify themselves as believers of some sort. It's a matter of knowing your market. And of course, people have been conditioned by various forms of media to expect the atheist to be converted back to belief by the end. I don't think any writers who are atheists would be interested in writing that story...

[veinglory]

It seems to me that if it was set up in a similar way to interracial the expectation would not be all that strong and the message emphasis would be the unconditional nature of love rather than about God per se.

[pepperlandgirl]

I guess so....but it would have the effect of narrowing your readership anyway. Admitted racists, and even people who don't consider themselves racist but clearly have bigoted views, wouldn't read inter-racial romance, just as homophobes probably wouldn't be eager to read m/m or f/f romance. For a lot of people, non-belief is a complete non-starter. Readers may find it utterly impossible to believe that the heroine who is a devout Christian would fall in love with a hero who is a hard atheist. How could they when their entire world-view seems so incompatible? In matters of race and sexual orientation, people coming from different backgrounds aren't really utterly incompatible. When it comes to religion though, that might not be the case.

Of course, the more I talk about it and think about it, the more I want to write this book. What do I care if I lose some of my readers? It's not like I'm lighting the world on fire now....

[veinglory]

Equally I raised the topic because there are readers out their specifically looking for this issue. So given the average sales of an ebook (maybe 1000 copies) it may well be worth a go to exploit a niche market with no current supply. I doubt it would fly as a Harlequin, but I imagine it would do fine as an Ellora's Cave or Loose Id.

[zornhau]

I think an atheist romance would be like an inverted Inspirational. If I can cite randomly (http://www.likesbooks.com/125.html):
The definition of an inspirational romance is one where the love story between the characters is closely intertwined with their development of a relationship with God. Usually at the beginning of an inspirational romance, one of the characters is a firm believer and the other is not. The progression of the relationship between the two characters explores not only matters of love, but also matters of doubt and faith. In an inspirational romance, part of the HEA is where the one character who has been struggling with faith becomes a believer.
So. Girl/Boy meets Girl/Boy. Religion breaks them up. Religion vanishes in puff of logic. HEA.

I like the idea of doing this. However, you might want to use a pen name.

[Devil Ledbetter]

I like the idea of doing this. However, you might want to use a pen name.It's tragic that we'd even have to consider using a pen name. I love the idea of religion disappearing in a puff of logic. Isn't that how it always disappears?

[veinglory]

I am already working on a few things be I may just have to add writing an 'unspirational' romance to the list ;)

[zornhau]

The big advantage of a pen name for overtly athiest books is that it doesn't give away the hidden agenda for your more subtle and subversive works.

[pink lily]

I'm not writing a romance, but when my characters marry in a civil ceremony, the MC brings his own bible which turns out to be a copy of Dawkins The Ancestors Tale covered in a stretchy bible cover he picked up at a Catholic head shop.

I got the idea from my sister, who was told to bring a special family bible for her swearing in as postmaster. She brought a dictionary.

Nobody noticed.

The problem is that if an atheist genre romance existed, it is almost definitely about one of the characters losing and finding their faith, as though faith was nothing more than a set of car keys. I honestly can't think of any recent book or movie where an avowed atheist was allowed to remained an avowed atheist.

All the characters in my books are atheists by default. ...
It's safe to say that 2007 is The Year of the Atheist, and there's definitely a market out there for books geared toward nonbelievers. This thread has lots of ideas. You could read some atheist message boards to learn more about the struggles faced by nonbelievers who are in love with or in relationships with believers. I've seen a fair number of people who struggle with dating, "holding out for an atheist." (My husband held out for an atheist, and the poor guy got stuck with me.)

I have some friends, locals, who were young fundamentalist Christians when they met and married. They deconverted together, becoming atheists at the same time, and now are sexy swingers enjoying all the things they missed out on by marrying young. They now cope with judgment from their families and former friends, but damn, do they throw wild parties! This is just one of many possible stories you could borrow from or tell. Hell, maybe I should write a book about this... hmm...

[Melisande]

As an atheist I would love to read a story that included atheism.

My husband is a Catholic, not a very active one, he doesn't go to church, but still a firm believer. We married in a crummy office, and it wasn't very romantic. But since we love each other we made it romantic. It worked for us.

I believe that there are many misconceptions about atheists out there, though, and feel that a story like that would have to stay very true to the atheist point of view. Also that there are, as it is in f.i. Christianity, a lot of different fractions of atheists. Maybe that could be included.

I hope you write the story, Veinglory.

[Devil Ledbetter]

My husband is a Catholic, not a very active one, he doesn't go to church, but still a firm believer. I think we're married to the same guy.;)

[zornhau]

I think we're married to the same guy.;)

So, actually a Mormon, then.

[Melisande]

So, actually a Mormon, then.

:roll:

[veinglory]

My difficulty wouldn't be so much in writing th atheist heroine but the religious hero. A few of my (transitory) boyfriends had religious upbringings but they weren't personally very observant.

My nose it to the grindstone on 3-4 other books but I am still pencilling this one in. I think a classic love conquers all plot, but not sure of the main action outside the romance. I want something better than family disapproval to work with as an outside obstacle...

[Melisande]

My nose it to the grindstone on 3-4 other books but I am still pencilling this one in. I think a classic love conquers all plot, but not sure of the main action outside the romance. I want something better than family disapproval to work with as an outside obstacle...

I honestly think that if the love is there, and the honesty also, then the plot might become very boring. But how about the Romeo-and-Julia theme, now set in modern day? About two middle-aged divorcee's (which I find would be VERY interesting indeed, with all the extra complications coming in), who face all the obstacles presented by both family, the job-situation, maybe moving to a new community and the lot of it?

[pepperlandgirl]

Wouldn't they have to enter a murder/suicide pact if it followed the Romeo-and-Juliet theme?

[Dusk]

Veinglory said:

"But I am still wondering exactly how atheism might fill the same sort of role in a narrative."

I think it would depend very much on what the characters' belief system was. People don't just *not* believe in something; they also *believe* in something. A secular atheist in the U.S. isn't likely to have the same belief system as a spiritual atheist in the Far East.

I tend to shy away from inserting contemporary controversies into my fantasy stories. If I live in a world where race is an issue, I place my characters in a world where race isn't an issue. If I live in a world where homosexuality is an issue, I place my characters in a world where homosexuality isn't an issue. And so, when I created a story about a character who believed in nontheistic reincarnation, I placed him in a nation where everyone else did too.

His partner (who comes from another nation) does believe in the existence of gods, but that's never an issue between them, because it's their shared belief in reincarnation that binds them, not the details of how the reincarnation takes place.

Your idea for a contemporary conflict novel, though, sounds wonderfully angsty.

[veinglory]

I think that an American contemporary atheist as I envisaged the character (i.e. like me) pretty much does just have just a lack of belief in God in place of the heroes belief in good

Sure there are also personal ethics (humanism etc) etc but religious people also have those in addition to the God-yes, God-no settings...?