Interesting Statement in a Rejection

[Histry Nerd]

All -

I just received an encouraging rejection from an agent reading my full ms. Encouraging, because he gave me a detailed list of the reasons he chose not to take it on, giving me a better idea (from an industry point of view) of what I need to work on. But among his observations was this:

"An historical novel really has to be either romantic if written for women, or educational if written for men."

The context of his comment is that mine is essentially an adventure/war story set in an obscure period, with little in the way of Big Events or Big Names to anchor it in history. I see his point, at least from the marketing perspective: a historical anchoring point is probably a significant part of a book's hook, although I have never thought of it that way.

Anybody have any thoughts on this?

Thanks!
HN

[Cav Guy]

I think it's crap. But then again I've also seen the Gunsmoke series novels classed by Signet as "historical novels", which they are not.

It is possible to frame a good story in a historical period, IMO. It doesn't have to be something big and flashy, although it does help if it's your first work. But then again I'm just a reader and not published in this genre. Take my comments accordingly.

[Puma]

You just struck fear in my heart - I've got a similar scenario to yours and it isn't a romance or a definite educational piece (but it is educational). I would have thought romance for women and war story for men - the educational sort of throws a curve. It would be interesting to know how he defines educational. Got to think about this one some more. Puma

[blackpen]

that's terrible!!! what total crap! why must books must be marketed towards either men or women? why does it have to be one or the other? i hate historical romance but i don't think my story would really appeal to the stereotypical 18-35 male readership either. i'd just disregard what he says and find another agent. a lot of people are forgiving of gender bending elements in fiction. a lot of women read historical fiction that's not romance and what does "educational" mean anyway?
on the other hand, one thing i've noticed is that men tend to like it when one single character or an army single handedly changes the course of history, even thought it never happens that way in real life. however, you're writing historical fiction, not an epic fantasy.
i sort of agree that if you're writing a historical novel, you should indeed "anchor" the time period. it doesn't have to be about something everyone knows about, but it is good to provide some context. maybe you could provide a foreword or a timeline that sort of shows when the time period is in relation to "bigger" events. good luck with getting an agent!

[EngineerTiger]

Keep in mind that one person's romance is another person's swashbuckler. I have no idea what to tell you on this one. Historical novels used to be such a tidy little genre. Michener, Costain...now, I've seen Diana Gabaldon called an historical novelist. While enjoyable, her time travel aspect to me as well as the heavy romance element takes her out of that genre into something else.

However, all of the genres seem to be evolving (look how diverse fantasy and science fiction are becoming) and additions like "paranormal romance". I guess the best thing is to try to write the story you want to tell and then see if you get enough response from agents and editors to fine tune it. I would hesitate to refocus a story based on one agent's opinion unless it was 1) a writing issue (such as tightening the story, making dialogue more believable) and 2) if the agent tells you that he/she wants you to resubmit after fixing a particular issue or weakness.

[Histry Nerd]

Thanks for the quick replies, guys. From his message, I think his idea of "educational" really has to do with tying the story in with the Big Events and Names I mentioned above, getting the details right and giving readers something to go look up if they find the story intriguing. That's what I got from it, anyway.

HN

[pdr]

Do you know, HN, if this agent is on the list of those attending the June HNS conference? If he is I will get someone to ask some leading questions! PM me with name and details and we'll get more details for you and everyone.

Personally I think his definition is astray. What about all those adventure historicals in the form of soldiers and adventures, or the sailors and adventures? What about classic historical who dunnits?

Strange comment but he's wrong. I'm reviewing adventure type historicals for the HNS regularly.

[Histry Nerd]

pdr -

I just checked the list. If he's coming, he signed up in the last two days and hasn't made the list yet. I'll send you a PM in a minute.

Thanks for the boosters, all. I was all ready to make drastic changes for the sake of marketability. I still may, but it'll be to make the story better, not just more marketable.

HN

[blackpen]

yes, please do NOT make changes based on what that one agent has to say. he's wrong and vague and he's only one agent. i think the best stories are the ones that can appeal to all genders. i'm very glad you posted here. who is this agent, by the way. i sure won't be querying him.

[johnrobison]

My suggestion would be to consider the success that this particular agent enjoys. If he regularly sells books of your genre to major houses for sizeable sums, I'd heed his advice.

At the top, the publishing world is small, and I would not doubt that a successful agent in a particular genre would have his finger on its pulse.

If my own agent, who is a successful fellow in a successful firm, were to say, your book needs xxxx to be marketable, be assured that I'd pay close attention.

But that's because I know he's smart and qualified, and I know he wants to see me write books that sell, because we're both winners then.

And with respect the the actual comment, I personally have no idea if it's true or not.

[Histry Nerd]

Thanks for the perspective, John. This is a pretty big agent, with at least one Big Client, so he's doing something right. Most of his comments are helpful and constructive; I'm going to let them stew for a while while I finish my current WIP, then decide what I need to do to make the book better. It's just the one comment that left me scratching my head.

Frankly, I've been impressed by this agent's frankness and willingness to spend time on me, and if I don't find somebody else I'll query him again. Which is why I've chosen not to post his name here--I don't want him thinking I'm bitter. Just want to see how widespread this view is.

HN

[johnrobison]

Keep in mind that successful agents want to hook up with writers who will generate publishable, popular work. Successful agents don't say critical things to belittle you. They say those things because a few writers can take their advice and run with it, and produce better stuff.

Many people will say, "screw them! Write what you want!"

While it's fine to adopt a position like that, my feeling is that a book that no one reads is a failure. Of course, not everyone will agree with that view. People write for all manner of reasons. I write because I want to share my stories. And to succeed, I must write stories people will want to share.

[FergieC]

"An historical novel really has to be either romantic if written for women, or educational if written for men."

As a reader, this kind of attitude from the publishing industry really pisses me right off. I'm a woman and I do not want to read romance, Chic-lit or womens fiction. I get turned right off books that look like any one of the three. If there's pink or pastel on the cover, forget it! But I equally don't like testosterone-filled boys' books.

I find I frequently walk into bookshops, wander around a bit, and walk out again empty handed, and I'm really not that bloody unusual - most of the women my age I know are pretty similar to me really. I think I only bought one new book last year, and all the rest were second hand, published over 10 years ago.

There's no point saying write what you want if you can't get published unless you fall into one of their categories. But is there no way to have a reader revolt over this? If I pick up historical fiction, I just want good historical fiction - settings that come to life, interesting characters, some education about the period. If someone falls in love in the course of the story, fine - people do. Why does it have to be one or the other for a women or a man?

[EngineerTiger]

I suspect it has to do with the fact that merchandizing is so much the focus of our lives now. That and everything nowadays seems to need to go into a specific niche. This is one reason I'm ordering so many out of print books from Barnes and Noble. When I want to read historical novels, I'm really not interested in female-centric or male-centric. Just solid, believable tales that set me plunk down in the middle of an era.

[Gabriele]

As a reader, this kind of attitude from the publishing industry really pisses me right off. I'm a woman and I do not want to read romance, Chic-lit or womens fiction. I get turned right off books that look like any one of the three. If there's pink or pastel on the cover, forget it!

I'm so with you on that one.

I have less problems with the testosteron filled boy books, though. Give me some good battles any day. :D

[Puma]

History Nerd - There's a very good chance he's hoping you pick up the ball and run with it. You said your work is an adventure/war story set in an obscure period - am I correct in assuming this is a period that has not had a lot written about it? If that's the case, he may be saying you've identified a niche but need to tie it in to better known facts and in that way, make it more educational (and a better read).

Example - the Korean War - you could write a book like MASH about only what was going on at the front line, but it would be more educational if you were able to tell who was President of the US (by way of a troop directive), mention leaders of other countries, what was going on as far as new technology, what new cars looked like in 1951, the newest rage in hair styles, etc. Things like this tie your story more firmly into a period of history - so it's not just an obscure battle, what's happening actually has correlations to what was going on away from the battle.

Hope that makes some sense. If I were in your shoes, I'd seriously consider asking him if he'd give it a second look if you made the types of fixes he suggested. Good luck whatever you decide to do. Puma

[Histry Nerd]

Thanks, Puma. That kind of thing was one of the constructive comments he made, although he did not invite me to resubmit. And I think, as with most of his comments, it will make it a better book. I just have to figure out how to implement it. The book is set in 6th-Century Britain between Arthur's death and the Saxon conquest, so there's not a lot to tie it to.

Looks like I need to do some more research. Not the briar patch again!
HN

[Puma]

History Nerd - Don't overlook the possibility of natural events as ties - a comet that was seen over Europe and recorded, a major flood/storm/cold spell, etc. Look also at some of the archaeological records - when was Glastonbury Abbey begun (and I haven't a clue). Good luck on the research. You might even try starting a thread on what was going on in the British Isles in the 6th century. There are some pretty knowledgable people on these boards. Puma

[pdr]

not a lot to fix it to?

Just imagine the hell it was living then as a Britain with these bloody barbarians threatening to swamp a country which had had Roman rule for a very long time.

I imagine it was a time very similar to that when the UK was facing Hitler's invasion with everyone else invaded and no one to help. Very much on one's own and in fear of losing things they held precious to a vicious barbarian hoard of unwashed illiterates.

I've put the reply you received onto the HNS list where a number of editors and agents make comments so I'll report back when I get some of their feed back.

[JeanneTGC]

Thanks for the quick replies, guys. From his message, I think his idea of "educational" really has to do with tying the story in with the Big Events and Names I mentioned above, getting the details right and giving readers something to go look up if they find the story intriguing. That's what I got from it, anyway.

HN
Can you clarify what you mean by "getting the details right"? Anyone who reads historicals, of any kind, tend to look for the details to BE right. Are your dates off? Do you have a real person involved who couldn't be in the storyline because they weren't alive, were dead, were on another continent at the time, etc.?

My main beta reader is a lover of historicals from all periods. She willingly and eagerly will look up ANY date in ANY book to verify if the writer is correct. If they are, great. If they aren't, she tosses the book, and tells others that it's inaccurate. She is far from being alone in this.

If you have these kinds of errors, then the agent is spot on to tell you to fix them up, because you'll be destroyed by reader reviews unless you hit a chord like McMurtry did with Lonesome Dove (I have friends who can rant for HOURS about the historical inaccuracies in that novel).

Also, any agent who put this much time into their rejection is more than willing to have you requery them. But you'll have to have made the edits he suggests, or at least the ones you agree with, first. But don't take this "no" as a closed door forever. He sees promise in your work or he wouldn't have taken the time.

[FergieC]

I think his idea of "educational" really has to do with tying the story in with the Big Events and Names I mentioned above, getting the details right and giving readers something to go look up if they find the story intriguing.

For me, the idea of "educational" would be to do with simply learning something interesting that I didn't know. From that point of view, historical novels can be fantastic, if - and only if - they are correct in their facts.

The last thing you want is to be in intelligent company and make an ar*e of yourself because you come out with some dumb statement that's wrong but you believed it becuase you read it in a historical novel :rant: For some reason, I tend to take historical novels as well researched and factual, unless they clearly state otherwise, and trust the author. In films, I tend to assume there's a whole lot of licence in there (The Battle of Stirling Bridge, for example, did actually involve a bridge and a river - they were kind of key to the victory in fact. You wouldn't know that from Braveheart.)

A really well written historical novel will send me delving into history books though. I just finished The Fanatic by James Robertson and went straight to the library for a pile of books on the Covenanters.

That's what I'd take from "educational" but then what do I know, I'm just a woman and we don't like to be educated, just to read pink, fluffy, romance and Chic-lit :D

[EngineerTiger]

To get a feeling for the post-Roman era in Britain, take a look at both Mary Stewart's Merlin trilogy (Crystal Cave, Hollow Hills, Last Enchantment) and Jack Whyte's Camulod Chronicles if you have not read them before. While not exactly what you're writing, they should give you a feel for the period from the perspective of the disintegration of the Islands as the legions withdrew and the fear of the Saxon and Irish raiders became a constant threat.

You might also look into some of the archaelogical texts about the era (such as Geoffrey Ashe). These can provide a lot of clues to the daily life of a people, particularly those with undocumented history (lack of manorial rolls, personal diaries, etc.).

Keep in mind, unless you are writing historical fantasy (where you world-build and create your own history), historical fiction readers tend to be unforgiving with regard to errors. They want their history straight, if you will, so it is imperative to keep your research on track.

As to the "educate" comment, I would not go too far in the other direction. You want your story to capture the flavor and essence of the era. Don't go too far and clutter it up with a lot of extraneous material that is more suitable to a monograph in a history journal.

[Bourbon Street]

I wonder if that agent isn't really saying, 'great story, but why should readers care?' In that he/she is saying, women will 'care' because of the romance, men will 'care' because they'll learn about some cool historic event or era.

I hate the idea of trying to divide reading audiences based on gender or some other factor, when all us writers want to do is tell a great story to anyone and everyone. But it might be a publishing reality at the moment that the agent is more in tune with, as others have suggested.

[Alex Bravo]

I'm starting to really enjoy historical novels. I just picked up another, "Ironfire," a great read, and that has both romance and swashbuckling and is very much tied to an age (Ottoman Empire) that I really didn't know much about.

I love learning things from the age, not so much on dates and rulers, although that can be interesting too, but I actually like experiencing the peculiar customs, the traditions, and even the political and warring tactics of the time.

The Great Train Robbery, by Michael Crichton, is a perfect example of how learning about the age can be very entertaining.

[zanidove]

All
I am just a beginner, have been writing for about a year on this one fiction story based on historical fact. My book is neither romantic or educational, although the facts of the story are quite educational in their own manner. And it has as well some romance that is not at all mushy or over sexual, but basic, simple and just a part of life as it was.

Your viewpoints, your insight and your assorted solutions are inspiring. I have so much to learn and just reading what you all have written is really teaching me about this world I have so recently chosen to enter.

Thanks!!
Zani

[Kentuk]

What is the period? What are the possible events? Is there a way to do what he asks?

[pdr]

Here's the response from the HNS team of editors to HN's original post.

The HNR editors recently discussed this issue on our internal e-mail list. As a group, we feel that such a definition for historical fiction is very narrow and, frankly, a bit bizarre. There are many examples of current historical novels that contradict these comments; just see many of the books reviewed in this May issue of the HNS REview! As one of our editors pointed out, “The joy of historical fiction is that its scope is wide.”

Rather, we suggest you read the agent’s rejection as a statement of the types of historical fiction he’s able to sell. Commercial historical fiction that appeals primarily to women (which is the same as, in some agents’ opinions, that with a romantic angle) is very popular in the US.

We’ve also seen some American agents mention that historical fiction should be strongly anchored to a well-known historical period.

The comments you received reflect these trends. However, all agents are going to have different tastes, and this is far from the only opinion out there.

In choosing agents to approach, you may wish to concentrate on those who have represented novels more similar to the type you’re writing.

— the eds.

[Doug Johnson]

The context of his comment is that mine is essentially an adventure/war story set in an obscure period, with little in the way of Big Events or Big Names to anchor it in history.

My thought is that you didn't make the time period interesting enough to be published (which is a high bar and not the same as saying your story sucked, because if it did the agent wouldn't have said anything.) Adding well known historical characters would be one way to fix that.

Your characters, and the conflict between them wasn't interesting enough either. More war or more romance would be ways to fix the problem. There are other ways.

I'd recommend you watch the HBO series Rome, if you haven't already. It does all three of the agents recommendations and is excellent. My 65 year old mother, and myself, both loved it. So if you implement all of the recommendations, you can appeal to a wide audience. Just adding more war, would limit your audience to people who are interested in war.

[Histry Nerd]

Thanks, pdr, for getting that answer for us. That's pretty close to the answer I expected. I have some work to do--both in tweaking the story and in refining my agent search.

Thanks, too, to all of you who made suggestions. I'll be working on implementing my fixes over the next couple of months. Thanks for all the help!

HN