Marvel: Civil War

[PeeDee]

THIS THREAD WILL BE FULL OF SPOILERS!
(that means if you haven't read the Civil War series and you read this thread first, we'll give it all away. Thee be warned.)

Okay, so the comic reading population of AW: What did you think of the Civil War series, now that it's mostly all said and done?

What did you think of the ending? Of who won and lost? Of Who's apparently in prison?

In hindsight, was this 'event' a success, or a bit of a mess like "House of M" wound up being?

And is anyone else really annoyed that we're apparently going to plow right into World War Hulk something like ten minutes after Civil War has wrapped up? Seriously. Let's have some comics between events, huh?

[Bravo]

it wasnt bad, but this concept had the potential to be fantastic.

it all comes down to a poor explanation of the motives of the characters.

i had no clue what some of these heroes were thinking. the stamford tragedy happens, they want to register powers.

and im thinking: so what? in the real world they wouldve done that a long time ago. so it just seemed like a non-issue to me.

and then they had cap rebelling saying that superheroes shouldnt have to work for the govt, etc.

but they shouldve shown why that was a problem. they shouldve shown that those heroes who registered already were fighting in wars, or they were being forced to fight crime in ways they didnt want to.

that wouldve crystallized the divide and made cap's reasoning and fight much more logical.

the other huge problem was that marvel hyped this up w/ "who's side the are you on?" slogans, but the writer's were so clearly on cap's side. they made iron man such a prick that no fan would choose his side of the war.

it was just ridiculous to think that tony stark would get a bunch of psychopath villians to take down his friends.

absolutely ridiculous.

and it was idiotic how they said he cloned thor. a) as if that's even possible (how do you clone a magical god's powers?) b) ive never seen stark do something as machiavellian as this before (this is the guy who fought w the panther when he found out he was spying on the avengers).

they really wrote stark out of character.

but, w thaaaaat said, i still think it was fun.

it just had so much more potential.

oh, and marvel was foolish for not releasing the illumaniti series before this. that series explains what's going on a helluva lot better.

:Shrug:

[wordmonkey]

I preface this with the warning that I have not read Civil War. I do know the basics though.

See, I didn't think that it was much of a leap to work out that Cap would be anti-registration. Who is he? The Greatest of the Greatest Generation, right? He fought, was created even, to fight just such a thing.

I thought the idea sounded pretty good, and like has been said, could have been awesome.

I even didn't mind Spidey unmasking, but then in fairness, I heard one of the writers talking about it at a Con, and he justified very well, not even a stretch to believe. However, whether that came through in the book or not, I don't know.

Same writer also made some observations about the "suits" at Marvel sticking their fingers into projects and completely arsing them up. Wolverine Origin being a prime example. Started off hot, suits got involved, threw in tons of idea that "HAD" to be included, and the mini-series sank.

I think when you drive a project, you have full control. My experience if indie companies, is that they give a lot more freedom to the creators. When you get to the big boys, they seem to have that "Hollywood" demographic-analyzing, test-audience checking, bean countingmentality and great ideas never seem to deliver the way you hope.

The flip side is obviously that you simply can't work on something as epic as Civil War, or Infinity Crisis, unless you have that kinda organisation behind you. The same organisation that will then arse it up!

[PeeDee]

The story, from Captain America's point of view, was brilliant. He was wonderfully protrayed.

Iffy character protrayal, though, was Iron Man and the Fantastic Four. It felt like they decided on events (Iron Man is a bad guy, Fantastic Four breaks up) and then tried to come up with reasons.

I also thought that in their efforts to promote the seires, they really blew a lot of the shocking moments and drama. If I hadn't known that Spider-Man was going to unmask himself until I'd read the issue in which it happened, I would have flipped out.

But....I already knew about it. And I wasn't even trying to find spoilers, I just heard about it through osmosis. It was that pervasive.

As an "event" by itself, I think it was awkward. There was too little happening in the really IMPORTANT series like "Front Lines" and "Civil War," and way too much going on in all the periphreal series (for that matter, there were too damn many comics with "CIVIL WAR" slapped on the front, and half the time they were barely related.)

How I DO think it worked, though, is this:

I think that Civil War as a whole is, in many ways, a "coming of age" story for the whole entire Marvel Universe. I think its' the end of innocence and the entry point into a new, darker, more mature universe. It's not stated, but that's what it feels like to me. And in that, I think it succeeds, in that I look forward to seeing this new tone and idea used in post-War comics.

.....although the post-war comics are't impressing me much, either. Not yet...

(and why the hell is Spider-Man wearing his black costume again?)

[Bravo]

(and why the hell is Spider-Man wearing his black costume again?)

i was wondering the same thing.

im sure it has nothing to do w the movie that's coming out.

[wordmonkey]

(and why the hell is Spider-Man wearing his black costume again?)

Well the official reason is that he's gonna go darker because something terrible happens in his life, so the black is more fitting.

Myself, and I know this is gonna sound CRAZY! Like some conspiracy-nut shinola. But I think it may have something to do with a certain movie that is due out this summer where a black costume is a key plot point.

WHAT? THAT'S JUST CRAZY TALK!

WHO SAID THAT?

Not me.

[PeeDee]

And how one arth would that tie into Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer?

Sometimes, I don't get you guys at all.

I realize maybe something darker's going to happen but, er, shouldn't something darker have happened BEFORE he got the costume on? And anyawy, is it just a black suit? I mean, it thus far doesn't seem to be the Venom suit again.

Sometimes, I just don't understand how Joe Quesada and crew work.

I would like a little less unification between comics, I think. But that may be a whole 'nother topic...

[Bravo]

I would like a little less unification between comics, I think. But that may be a whole 'nother topic...

me too.

id like an acknowledgment of certain events but nothing that detracts from the specific title.

but we're in the minority on this.

[PeeDee]

me too.

id like an acknowledgment of certain events but nothing that detracts from the specific title.

but we're in the minority on this.

I wonder if we really are in a minority on this, actually...

I was reading old Spider-Man comics this afternoon (because it's that busy here at work). The old one by Stan lee and Steve Ditko, yanno? And the comics shared heroes and references each other's storylines, but only to a very limited extent. And I think it worked wonderfully that way.

[PeeDee]

Okay, the biggest spoiler post of all.








Captain America, one of my all-time favorite heroes, one of the only reasons why I read Civil War......dead.

Question: Will Marvel leave him dead? Or are we going to get a "Death and Return of Superman" sort of storyline?

(I'm crushed at Captain America's death. I really honestly am.)

[Inkdaub]

Noone ever stays dead so Cap will be back. Also, Spiderman is in black because something terrible happened....spolier in white color ink....Aunt May was shot...

I liked Civil War but agree it could have been better. I think the winner was the right choice in that it was the logical choice. Stark may have been out of character but I have never found him more interesting. I think I'm the only person who likes the idea of a self serving border line villainous Stark, though. I didn't like the way Reed played second fiddle to him, though. I don't even like Reed but he's easily as established and prominent a man in the Marvel U as Iron Man is. They had Reed at the same level as Pym. I just don't see it. I also don't like the whole Peter Parker looking up to Tony Stark deal. Parker needs to grow up a bit and stop being the endless teenager.

The story over all felt fragmented and rushed but that's the way of things like this. There were things I wanted resolved that didn't seem to be but I hope will be in the future.

Cap...I don't know about that guy. Overall I dislike him but Civil War made me like him a bit. It doesn't hurt that my favorite writer...Ed Brubaker...writes his book I guess. He's just so incredibly over competant. He's trading punches with Iron Man...what? That's absurd.

[PeeDee]

He's a super-soldier, from World War II.

My favorite incarnation of Captain America was in the "The Ultimates" graphic novels. I thought they were absolutely perfect, especially the early issues as Cap tries to reestablish himself in this new century.

I should have said it better, but while I thought Iron Man was strangely written (in the bits that establish him as the bad guy in this series) I do think that he made an enjoyable bad guy, and it was a logical ending, although it wasn't the ending I wanted. I wanted Cap to win, but I knew he couldn't.

I didn't understand the way they showed Reed at all, let alone in light of the Illuminati stuff they're doing now.

Honestly, they should have just given the whole series to Joe Straczynski and let him do what he wanted with it.

[wordmonkey]

I realize maybe something darker's going to happen but, er, shouldn't something darker have happened BEFORE he got the costume on? And anyawy, is it just a black suit? I mean, it thus far doesn't seem to be the Venom suit again.

Having a total brain-fart now and I can't remember the name. The white-haired bird who was a cat-burglar but had the hots for Spidey and kinda turned good. The blue/black costume with the bits of shagpile white rugg around the cuffs and boots. You know the one I mean.

Anyways, I believe she thought he looked hot in the black suit and made him a non-symbiotic version. Sewed herself and everything.

Now that is love.

When did MJ ever do that?

So, he DOES have a black version that is JUST a costume.

And it's still completely unrelated to a certain blockbuster due out this summer.

Honest!

[jnesvold]

Having a total brain-fart now and I can't remember the name. The white-haired bird who was a cat-burglar but had the hots for Spidey and kinda turned good. The blue/black costume with the bits of shagpile white rugg around the cuffs and boots. You know the one I mean.

Anyways, I believe she thought he looked hot in the black suit and made him a non-symbiotic version. Sewed herself and everything.

Now that is love.

When did MJ ever do that?


Felicia Hardy, the Black Cat. And MJ may not sew Pete new union suits, but she's a supermodel! Who cares about love? (Maybe that's what he's thinking)

[wordmonkey]

Felicia Hardy, the Black Cat. And MJ may not sew Pete new union suits, but she's a supermodel! Who cares about love? (Maybe that's what he's thinking)

That's it!

My sanity thanks you.

My family thanks you (because they'd have had to live with me while I slink around the house in a foul mood trying to remember.

[Stacia Kane]

I tried to forget the Black Cat after that horrible Kevin Smith book. 1st half good--second half atrocious.

[wordmonkey]

I tried to forget the Black Cat after that horrible Kevin Smith book. 1st half good--second half atrocious.

Sounds like another Wolverine Origin nightmare.

"Hey this is an awesome book. Sales are great, cool story, slick art. Y'know what we need? We need to get all the Editors and suits together, throw all the ideas we have for the way we think this should story should play out. Now obviously they'll ALL be great ideas, so what we'll do is throw them ALL at the writer and get him to include them all."

I jest of course, but I find it hard to believe that a writer can start an arc, then have a complete melt-down half-way through and ruin the arc.

Now I don't doubt this is possible. We've all had an awesome idea that would be such a cool story... er... but how do I wind it all up? But this is one of the joys of working in the business. And as writers, we have to deal with Editors, with artists who think they can write a better story and have more clout, with fan-feedback that causes the publisher to want to change directions.

If you're a pro, you deal with it. Pick your fights and cash your checks. And one day, you have enough clout to make it right.

[PeeDee]

the problem with Wolverine is that fans don't ACTUALLY want all the mysteries cleared up, all the questions answered. What's the fun in that? It's like watching "House," except House gets cheerful and friendly and well-adjusted and the show keeps going. Congrautlations, you have E.R.

Wolverine Origins was a dumb idea, done badly. And seriously, at this point, Wolverine and Sabertooth are practically dating...


(Black Cat was hot. Yeeow. Way hotter than Catwoman.)

[wordmonkey]

But where do you draw the line?

You need hooks and mystery and plot points that are, no pun intended, water-cooler moments. But you also need to resolve SOME of them or your audience switches off.

Crossing disciplines, it's a problem LOST has had. And yet the flip-side is that HEROES manages it very well? The Jeph Loeb factor? Just a comicbook factor?

[Bravo]

Okay, the biggest spoiler post of all.








Captain America, one of my all-time favorite heroes, one of the only reasons why I read Civil War......dead.

Question: Will Marvel leave him dead? Or are we going to get a "Death and Return of Superman" sort of storyline?

(I'm crushed at Captain America's death. I really honestly am.)

it was one of the worst death scenes ive ever read.

death by sniper is so contrived and banal for anyone, its pretty unforgivable for marvel to do that w cap.

and it was also pretty obnoxious to release that he died before anyone even read the story.



Noone ever stays dead so Cap will be back.

he's def. not dead.

they totally showed their hand here as well.

i dont really mind if they dont kill someone like him off, but its annoying how they lied to the media about this.


I liked Civil War but agree it could have been better. I think the winner was the right choice in that it was the logical choice. Stark may have been out of character but I have never found him more interesting. I think I'm the only person who likes the idea of a self serving border line villainous Stark, though.

i actually love the idea of a machiavellianl stark.

love it.

but it needed to have some basis.

they just threw it out there.

and it made no sense to use villians to capture friends.

no sense at all.

[Shadow_Ferret]

Okay, the biggest spoiler post of all.








Captain America, one of my all-time favorite heroes, one of the only reasons why I read Civil War......dead.

Question: Will Marvel leave him dead? Or are we going to get a "Death and Return of Superman" sort of storyline?

(I'm crushed at Captain America's death. I really honestly am.)
They brought back Superman?

I remember when Jim Steranko took over Captain America from the late great Jack "The King" Kirby. Issue #111 I believe they killed off Cap. But he was back the very next issue.

I hope they bring him back, to me Captain America IS Marvel Comics. He's the character that got me started reading them back in the 60s and he's been the one constant all my life. Without him, what is the purpose to life? Why go on?

[PeeDee]

What do you mean "They brought back Superman?" Sheesh. It was The Death and Return of Superman. ;)

It was a damn good arc, actually. Very powerful. And then Superman got...blue...and weird...


I have been consistently fond of Captain America for a long, long time now. I was thrilled when they brought out The Ultimates in the Ultimate Marvel universe, because they did a bang-up job writing Steve Rogers.

I didn't like Civil War -- it was too loose, too onfocused, it didn't work -- but I loved the battle of ideals between Captain America and Iron Man, when it wasn't interrupted by random fighting.

(an aside: Honestly, don't they understand that we dont' need big explosive fighting every issue? I mean, Batman works at his best when he's not fighting....)

Captain America was big and powerful and unwavering in what he believed, and I really liked that. I liked the Captain enormously.

I even liked him more than Captain Britain. Or Union Jack, or whatever his name was...

[Stacia Kane]

It's Captain Britain, PeeDee.

I have a feeling Steve Rogers is dead. Captain America may come back, but...seems to me that's what Joe Q was hinting at in last week's Joe Fridays.


BTW, I agree, I like when other stuff is happening besides fights. I like the subtle stuff and the mysteries.

[wordmonkey]

Captain Britain was the best damn bit of pandering to an audience I've ever seen. Marvel UK made a UK hero and they actually made a decent character!

My bet of Cap (not as good as Captain Britain) is that the Super Serum that kept him alive after his fateful face off (no pun intended) with Red Skull at the end of WWII will kick in again.

Or, and I have to admit I think this is the favorite, considering it's Marvel), we'll discover that Steve Rogers only survived or reacted to the Super Serum treatment because he was mutant and...(same as above).

BTW, Captain Britain could kick Cap's butt.

Oh, and Union Jack IS a Marvel character who has popped up and disappeared from time to time. No powers as such, but he does have a Webley pistol.

[PeeDee]

I KNEW Union Jack was a real character! I saw him just recently, in a Brubaker comic!

A google search has cleared me up.

I LOVE the idea of Steve Rogers coming out as a mutant. That opens up whole new, huge storylines for him and the mutant community, what's left of it.

[Stacia Kane]

BTW, Captain Britain could kick Cap's butt.



My husband the Captain Britain fan says no he couldn't. :)

[wordmonkey]

I suspect it depends which Captain Britain. He's had a few ups and downs. But at his most powerful I suspect he could have snapped Cap.

That said, I'm mostly just taunting my colonial cousins. And it's no fun when it's a fellow countryman who bites.

[Stacia Kane]

That said, I'm mostly just taunting my colonial cousins. And it's no fun when it's a fellow countryman who bites.

Just as I suspected. :)

[PeeDee]

Captain America would've won. Sorry. He may be mortal, but he's got the willpower to bend mountains. I don't care HOW many times Captain Britain put him down, Cap would get back up.

Coincidentally, I spent a frustrated hour last night researching for a certain type of Captain America picture. I remember sometime in the 90's when he gave up being Captain America and became "The Captain," for a bit. He had a black uniform with red and white stripes on his chest, and a black star to one side. YOu remember?

The internet barely does. I can't find a decent picture of it to save my life. Which is a shame, i thought it was pretty cool. I had some of those issues, and I had an action figure, and I loved it.

[wordmonkey]

This what ya mean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Captain_America_350.jpg

Details here...

In the 1980s, in addition to runs from such acclaimed creators as John Byrne, the series reveals the true face and full origin of the Red Skull. Long-time writer Mark Gruenwald explores numerous political and social themes, such as extreme idealism when Captain America fights the anti-nationalist terrorist Flag-Smasher; and vigilantism when he hunts the murderous Scourge of the Underworld. The series also subtly addressed the issue of homophobia when Captain America reunites up with a childhood friend named Arnold Roth who has long since known that Steve Rogers was Captain America. We first meet Roth in Captain America #270 and while the word "homosexuality" is never said, Roth is living with another man, a school teacher who helped him overcome his gambling addiction, and is shown to be heartbroken when his roommate is murdered by Baron Zemo.

Rogers receives a large back-pay reimbursement dating back to his disappearance at the end of World War II, and a government commission orders him to work directly for the U.S. government. Already troubled by the corruption he had encountered with the Nuke incident in New York City), Rogers chooses instead to resign his identity and take the alias of "The Captain". A replacement Captain America, John Walker, struggles to emulate Rogers' ideals until pressure from hidden enemies helps to drive Walker insane. Rogers returns to the Captain America identity while a recovered Walker becomes the U.S. Agent.

From...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_America

[Excelsior]

Captain America would've won. Sorry. He may be mortal, but he's got the willpower to bend mountains. I don't care HOW many times Captain Britain put him down, Cap would get back up.

One of my favorite lines from Miller's run on Daredevil was when he said that Cap had a voice that could command a God.

[PeeDee]

One of my favorite lines from Miller's run on Daredevil was when he said that Cap had a voice that could command a God.

That's kind of what I was thinking of, yeah. And I always thought it was true. Captain America was tougher than Superman, in that regard.

[Excelsior]

Here's one for comic readers:

If the Civil War had taken place in the DC Universe, how would the sides stack up? Who would be in favor of the Registration, who would oppose it?

[johnzakour]

Captain America would've won. Sorry. He may be mortal, but he's got the willpower to bend mountains. I don't care HOW many times Captain Britain put him down, Cap would get back up.



Of course Cap USA would win, CAP England would stop to make a pun or worry about one of his women and Cap USA would clobber him with his shield.

[johnzakour]

That's kind of what I was thinking of, yeah. And I always thought it was true. Captain America was tougher than Superman, in that regard.

So is Batman. It's that iron will that makes the two.

[PeeDee]

Here's one for comic readers:

If the Civil War had taken place in the DC Universe, how would the sides stack up? Who would be in favor of the Registration, who would oppose it?

Dude, that's practically a whole thread to itself. I've gotta thik about that one for a bit.

Batman would be against. He would absolutely be against. He would probably fall in the Captain America slot, in that conflict.

Superman would be FOR registration, depending on how much guilt he's dealing with that particular day. He could be reasoned into being for it. Batman couldn't be reasoned out of it.

The Flash would be...against, I think. You kno, I'm not sure, I think the idea of getting recognition and government snaction might win him over.

Wonder Woman would be entirely against.

The Green Lanterns would be for it, in that they're registered with the Guardians of Oa, and registering with the US government isn't hugely different. They might not even register, they might just declare themselves citizens of Oa, regardless of if they're from and protecting Earth or not.

I'll have more later. This is something to think about, for sure.

[johnzakour]

Dude, that's practically a whole thread to itself. I've gotta thik about that one for a bit.

Batman would be against. He would absolutely be against. He would probably fall in the Captain America slot, in that conflict.

Superman would be FOR registration, depending on how much guilt he's dealing with that particular day. He could be reasoned into being for it. Batman couldn't be reasoned out of it.

The Flash would be...against, I think. You kno, I'm not sure, I think the idea of getting recognition and government snaction might win him over.

Wonder Woman would be entirely against.

The Green Lanterns would be for it, in that they're registered with the Guardians of Oa, and registering with the US government isn't hugely different. They might not even register, they might just declare themselves citizens of Oa, regardless of if they're from and protecting Earth or not.

I'll have more later. This is something to think about, for sure.

Didn't the Dark Knight graphic novel kind of illude to this? Wasn't Supes sort of a government lacky sent out to bring in the renegade heroes? Hence Supes and Green Arrow coming to blows that resulted in GA losing an arm. Hence Bats going into hiding... Albeit a hiding approved by Supes.

It's been a LONG time since I read Dark Knight. My memory may be off.

[PeeDee]

Didn't the Dark Knight graphic novel kind of illude to this? Wasn't Supes sort of a government lacky sent out to bring in the renegade heroes? Hence Supes and Green Arrow coming to blows that resulted in GA losing an arm. Hence Bats going into hiding... Albeit a hiding approved by Supes.

It's been a LONG time since I read Dark Knight. My memory may be off.

No, you're more or less right. I thought in the Dark Knight, Frank Miller really reduced every character except Batman to a two dimensional cutout. I asnt impressed.

I was trying to think in terms of the rest of each hero's novels. For example, a Superman that could star in Superman For All Seasons, could be subtly talked into supporting a Registration program. But if you went at him directly ad said "You must support this," he would be affronted and NOT support it. Superman can be manipulated.

Batman DOES see things in terms of black and white. And Wonder Woman would look on it as little more than slavery.

Flash would fill something like Spider-Man's role. Whihc would figure, since Spider-Man was something of an answer to Flash's comics in the first place.

[johnzakour]

Flash would fill something like Spider-Man's role. Whihc would figure, since Spider-Man was something of an answer to Flash's comics in the first place.

That's so true, I forgot Flash was bitten by a radioactive roadrunner. :)

[PeeDee]

My arm's getting tired from WHACKING YOU. Hmpf.

[Jcomp]

No, you're more or less right. I thought in the Dark Knight, Frank Miller really reduced every character except Batman to a two dimensional cutout. I asnt impressed.

I was trying to think in terms of the rest of each hero's novels. For example, a Superman that could star in Superman For All Seasons, could be subtly talked into supporting a Registration program. But if you went at him directly ad said "You must support this," he would be affronted and NOT support it. Superman can be manipulated.

Batman DOES see things in terms of black and white. And Wonder Woman would look on it as little more than slavery.

Flash would fill something like Spider-Man's role. Whihc would figure, since Spider-Man was something of an answer to Flash's comics in the first place.

Good points (and I completely agree about Miller's treatment of characters in Dark Knight, I still like the comic, but he simplified every character to almost maddening degrees). I think you'd be hard pressed to find a comparable Iron Man character in DC, given the situation. The closest might be Superman, and he wouldn't go as far as Tony did. At one point it seemed that Tony might be tempted to beat Captain America to death. No way Supes goes after his old allies with that much tenacity.

[PeeDee]

Agreed, in that Superman isn't Tony Stark. Superman is idealistic and somewhat niave, and thus why I think he can be manipulated. He would be manipulated into being passive in the fight, into seeing that the registration was RIGHT. But he's not Tony Stark.

Okay, who COULD be Tony Stark, in the DC Universe? Batman would fight the Registration to death, I know. Lex Luthor would certainly be all for registration, but I'm not counting him here. WHO, in the DC universe, would work like Tony Stark and propose the idea, and then completely abandon his ideals in the pursuit of it?

I'd be able to answer my own question a lot easier, if I weren't slowly getting sick. Somehow, my head's full of too many Marvel characters and not enough DC...