Swearing

[AllyWoof]

In real life, I've noticed the ever increasing usage of curse words in teenagers vocabulary. Is it okay to do the same in a book to make conversations more realistic? Please answer ASAP.

[scarletpeaches]

If your characters would say it, you write it.

Today's simple answer to a simple question was brought to you by scarletpeaches.

[AllyWoof]

Thanks a million. You have been a big help.

[weatherfield]

Hi Writerdog,

I have a feeling that people are going to be all over the place on this one. All kinds of arguments have been made both against and in defense of profanity in YA. My own idea on the subject is that moderation is important. What I mean is, I wouldn't have my characters using obscenities quite as fluently as teenagers do in real life, but I would definitely use them in heightened situations, altercations, etc., because to me, that reads authentically. I grew up in a blue-collar family, in a blue-collar neighborhood, and no one worried too much about the tender ears of the children, if you know what it mean, but in writing, I think too much profanity can lose its power and start to seem redundant. You want your dialogue to be able to carry a lot of weight. I would say, use profanity within reason, so it doesn't start to weaken the lines instead of shore them up.

I don't know if that helps, but I'm sure others will weigh in.
w

[Rich]

Now, get out there and start fuckin' writing!

[scarletpeaches]

Anyone who swears like that is an utter bastard and deserves to have his shitting face kicked in, you arsehole!

[AllyWoof]

Hi Writerdog,

I have a feeling that people are going to be all over the place on this one. All kinds of arguments have been made both against and in defense of profanity in YA. My own idea on the subject is that moderation is important. What I mean is, I wouldn't have my characters using obscenities quite as fluently as teenagers do in real life, but I would definitely use them in heightened situations, altercations, etc., because to me, that reads authentically. I grew up in a blue-collar family, in a blue-collar neighborhood, and no one worried too much about the tender ears of the children, if you know what it mean, but in writing, I think too much profanity can lose its power and start to seem redundant. You want your dialogue to be able to carry a lot of weight. I would say, use profanity within reason, so it doesn't start to weaken the lines instead of shore them up.

I don't know if that helps, but I'm sure others will weigh in.
w


Yeah. I'm not just throwing curse words all over the place. Just using phrases such as dip shit and the like. I might let a loose one slip in at times, but I am not writing scenes that go "You fucking asswhole! I would not want my children in the presents of mother fucking bitches like you." That is way too much. I even think that's over the top in real life, but I used it here to stage a point. And as a side note to Rich. I am writing. I put a curse word in, then began questioning this action. I wanted others opinions as to wheather or not what I did was okay.

[weatherfield]

Exactly!:D

[elf_friend39]

Then...perhaps we should consider the question: are young adults actually encouraged to swear by reading it in books?

[Shady Lane]

I sort of doubt it. I think the point of adding swearing is that it emphasizes the reality of a dialouge. A teenager whose society is anything like the one dipicted in the novel should find that the swearing fits right in, and naturally skip over it.

The point is, I think, to add swearing when it makes the text more natural. You don't add it for shock value, and therefore no teenager is going to learn new dirty words from a well-peppered novel.

[Dasence]

therefore no teenager is going to learn new dirty words from a well-peppered novel.

I totally agree with this. It's a shame, but I think anymore, teens would almost expect to find swearing in their novels--seeing as how it's everywhere else and all.

[AllyWoof]

I totally agree with this. It's a shame, but I think anymore, teens would almost expect to find swearing in their novels--seeing as how it's everywhere else and all. Thanks. It is refreshing to have someone back me.

[beezle]

The answer is, 'be honest'. If your character swears, if it's dishonest NOT to have her swear... well, don't lie to your readers.

[AllyWoof]

I agree.

[giftedrhonda]

I have mild cursing in the YA novel my agent is shopping around. She made no comments or complaints about it.

I say do what feels right for the story.

[Little Red Barn]

I would think about whether or not your book is YA and the marketability of it being in schools...just something to consider when using a lot of profanity.
My 2cents and hugs Writer :)

[AllyWoof]

I would think about whether or not your book is YA and the marketability of it being in schools...just something to consider when using a lot of profanity.
My 2cents and hugs Writer :)

It's not a lot. Just typical teenspeak.

[Shady Lane]

I would think about whether or not your book is YA and the marketability of it being in schools...just something to consider when using a lot of profanity.
My 2cents and hugs Writer :)

I wouldn't necessary view being banned from a school as a minus...there's no better way to get publicity.

[weatherfield]

And I'll go ahead and add that I wouldn't necessarily view profanity as a reason to be banned from schools (this from a girl who had Holden Caulfield's discourse on the F-word taped to the inside of her locker door, so take it for what it's worth).

[AllyWoof]

I love you!

[Shady Lane]

My school also has Banned Book Month; we have banned books in the library all year, but for a month they go on display and we're all encouraged to check them out, and all the reasons the books were banned are posted proudly beside them.

[Grey Malkin]

I found a play I wrote at fifteen (long, long time ago) at a time when alternative comedy was tearing through the UK and "fuck" was the trendiest word in town. The play involved my friends and was pretty much a transcript of how they talked. It's very funny to read now as it shows just how OTT we were, but as dialogue, in a story, it would be a real pain to read as it would get in the way of the story and it would become tedious very, very quickly.

If your goal is to show emotion - esp. anger - then it will only really work if it contrasts with other characters who don't swear. Having all sides swear will cancel each other out.

It can be very effictive if used sparingly, but can also appear as lazy writing if every other line is peppered with it, and not just in YA, but equally in adult fiction, especially crime and thrillers.

[Grey Malkin]

ps - glad to see the swearing filter has been taken off this site. We are, after all, writers, so we should be allowed to use all the tools in our kit.

[beezle]

ps - glad to see the swearing filter has been taken off this site. We are, after all, writers, so we should be allowed to use all the tools in our kit.

Yeah, seriously. It was liberating.

[Grey Malkin]

When did that happen? I've had a quick scan of the boards and can't see any announcements. I think I might spend more time on here now that's gone. Not because I love swearing - I just don't think we should be sensored on a writing board - especially in the Young Adult section where it's a subject that comes up again and again. How can we say it's okay to swear in our books if we can't on a discussion forum?

Well done whoever pulled the plug. (I really feel like testing the limits now :))

Grey

[Jimmer]

My school also has Banned Book Month; we have banned books in the library all year, but for a month they go on display and we're all encouraged to check them out, and all the reasons the books were banned are posted proudly beside them.


This is an amazing concept and I absolutely love it! Has anyone else heard of a school doing such a thing?

I think it would make a great English Lit course:
Banned Books in Contemporary Society

To defeat your fears, confront them!

[AllyWoof]

ps - glad to see the swearing filter has been taken off this site. We are, after all, writers, so we should be allowed to use all the tools in our kit.
I don't know what you're talking about, you worthly piece of shit! Sorry couldn't resist.

[weatherfield]

This is an amazing concept and I absolutely love it! Has anyone else heard of a school doing such a thing?

My school did something similar, making a point to display banned books at the entrance every September, and the public library where I lived had a selection of prominent banned books that were featured year-round on a display.

My school library was kind of a nice surprise, because I can't remember the librarians ever limiting what I could check out, even though I had a preconceived notion that they would. I'm thinking particularly of an instance where I had to turn in a parental consent form so that I could read Lord of the Flies in class, but when I went to get the book from the school library (sans form), the librarian pleasantly checked it out to me without comment. The personal lesson I took from this is, librarians are some of the coolest people in the world and most of them just want to share books with you. :LilLove:

[AllyWoof]

I'm thinking particularly of an instance where I had to turn in a parental consent form so that I could read Lord of the Flies in class, but when I went to get the book from the school library (sans form), the librarian pleasantly checked it out to me without comment. The personal lesson I took from this is, librarians are some of the coolest people in the world and most of them just want to share books with you. :LilLove: My middle school teachers made my Mom write a note saying I could read Stephen King lol.

[Moon Daughter]

I pretty much agree with everyone. Swearing can be very effective if used at the right time. A swearing battle is just a turn off. Has anyone ever seen Gigli? Horrible movie! There was one scene where Jennifer Lopez and Ben were going on for an entire scene just doing nothing but swearing. After that, I had to turn it off.

I don't think my elementary/junior high school allowed banned books, but I do believe it was a different story for high school. All I know is that they never showcased it.

[Moon Daughter]

My middle school teachers made my Mom write a note saying I could read Stephen King lol.

Hilarious! Hmmm, I wonder what they would have said if your mom wrote a note to allow you to read erotica? :Shrug:

[AllyWoof]

Hilarious! Hmmm, I wonder what they would have said if your mom wrote a note to allow you to read erotica? :Shrug: Basically, she did. Her note said "Alycia has permission to read anything she wants."

[Moon Daughter]

Is that what your school required? lol How old were you anyways?

[AllyWoof]

11-12.

[Moon Daughter]

Duh! I should have known that. I looked back up and forgot that you said middle school. Er, this thread is getting sidetracked. :) lol

[dreamsofnever]

I agree that a little bit of swearing for emphasis is not a bad thing. But I also think that, sometimes, it's what you DON'T say that has more punch.

i.e. "she swore under her breath." or "he let out a string of words that would have made his mother blush."

That said, I can be foul-mouthed in real life, but I generally limit the swear words I use in a novel to those that are absolutely necessary. Not really about being a prude but trying to use all tools available to me for effective writing.

[weatherfield]

Basically, she did. Her note said "Alycia has permission to read anything she wants."

How funny! The whole middle school phenomenon is still really strange to me, because I didn't go to school until ninth grade, and even high school felt stifling. I'd lived fifteen years in relative freedom, and suddenly people were telling me what to do and where to go all the time. And I accepted that, because I understood (tried to understand) that's what school's often about. However, the fact that they wanted to my parents' permission before I could read certain things was infuriating. I will stand up and sit down and get in line, but don't try to take away my books :D

[The_Grand_Duchess]

I don't think kids say dipshit anymore. But if your char would curse I say go for it. I don't remember any books not being allowed in our library for cursing. . . I don't remember any books not being allowed in the library for anything.

[Shady Lane]

My school did something similar, making a point to display banned books at the entrance every September, and the public library where I lived had a selection of prominent banned books that were featured year-round on a display.

My school library was kind of a nice surprise, because I can't remember the librarians ever limiting what I could check out, even though I had a preconceived notion that they would. I'm thinking particularly of an instance where I had to turn in a parental consent form so that I could read Lord of the Flies in class, but when I went to get the book from the school library (sans form), the librarian pleasantly checked it out to me without comment. The personal lesson I took from this is, librarians are some of the coolest people in the world and most of them just want to share books with you. :LilLove:


Our local Barnes and Noble also has banned books in the front window.

We work typically banned books into our cirriculum (I absolutely can't spell that) as well--The Outsiders in 6th grade, To Kill a Mockingbird in 8th grade, Catcher in the Rye in 9th. And we definitely don't need notes to read anything. They want us educated, after all ;)

[threedogpeople]

One of the kindest things that happened to me when I was young involved banning a book.

My father got very sick when I was 11 and died when I was 13. There was a book that had been part of the planned curriculum; the teachers got together, spoke to the principal, who went to the school board. The book was eventually removed from the year's planned lessons. Why? It was a story about a young girl whose father got sick and died.

I found out via the kid gossip line (there were a few teachers' kids in my grade who overheard discussions at home).

I never talked to anyone about what I heard or what had been done but always felt like it was a very personal kindness. Out of all those kids at my middle school, all of those adults did something just to spare my feelings.

So, in some cases, banning a book can have good results.

[Cassiopeia]

you know ..not all teenagers swear. some even try not to. so i would think it depends on your target audience. yes even teens have different interests and experiences.

[Momento Mori]

I agree with the other comments re being true to your character but not making the swearing gratuitous. One of the things that always bugged me about Harry Potter was that no one ever says or thinks "fuck".

Just to add a new dimension to the discussion however, I'm currently reading Tithe by Holly Black, which does use "fuck" quite a bit (although I don't think it's gratuitous). The back cover of the book has a large "Parental Advisory" sign on it, warning about the language and I was just curious about what people thought about publishers doing things like that.

My gut feel was that it would actually make the book more attractive to young teens (like the Parental Advisory lyrics sticker on albums used to be a 'badge of cool') and that whilst it might warn off parents buying it for their children, given that so many teens have their own disposable income, it would ultimately have little effect.

[Evaine]

The thing about Harry Potter is that the characters are not the sort of kids who would naturally say "fuck", so JK Rowlings' dialogue is true to them.

[AllyWoof]

When did this become the banning book/Harry Potter thread?

[Grey Malkin]

One of the things that always bugged me about Harry Potter was that no one ever says or thinks "fuck".

You can argue the same about any TV show - in the UK it was always Grange Hill, when every comprehensive school up and down the country had kids swearing their tits off. You have to weigh up realism with the needs of your target audience.

example:
-----------
Once upon a time a teddy bear found a magic coin.
"Fucking ace." said the teddy.
-----------

doesn't really work, does it?

Grey

[Momento Mori]

Grey Malkin:
You can argue the same about any TV show - in the UK it was always Grange Hill, when every comprehensive school up and down the country had kids swearing their tits off. You have to weigh up realism with the needs of your target audience.

TV is a different medium though and in the UK you've always got the Watershed issue that affects any program shown before 9pm (e.g. Phil Mitchell on Eastenders is obviously dying to tell people to fuck off but never does so :)).

I agree with your comment about the target audience (e.g. I could never see a situation where it would be appropriate for Horrid Henry to tell someone to fuck off), but the HP series go from childrens' to YA and whilst the f-bomb may not be appropriate, there's too many "bloodies" in there for it to be credible for me.

However, the point of my original comment was not to get into a discussion about Harry Potter, but about Parental Advisory labels on YA books (which seem to be used as much to warn of language as it does content). Anyone got any thoughts, or should I be starting a new discussion?

MM

[Grey Malkin]

I would love a parental advisory sticker on my novel. (for content, not language). More kids would pick it up!

There's nothing to stop publishers doing this as a marketing ploy already.

[Hugh Mann]

I'm with Weatherfield on this one. Moderation is the key, because the portrayal in print of "real life" just encourages people, especially "young-uns," to go just a little further, and so it goes, so you get replies like Rich's. I'm an old coot, brought up in the era when the Hay's Office (ever hear of that?) would not let a married couple be shown in the same bed in a movie. That's extreme in the other direction. When profanity is appropriate to the situation, okay, but not just for dramatic effect. For example, in the movie "The Joy Luck Club," there was a scene in a garden party with a well-to-do family where the young man's mother acted in a very supercilious way to his Chinese-American girlfriend. He arrived on the scene, deduced what had happened and called his mother an "asshole." That was totally out of place. No respectable young man would call his mother that, no matter what the provocation. So, be careful how you portray reality.

[Shady Lane]

I think swearing is usually all right as long as it's contained in the dialouge. I think, in a YA, you're usually only in trouble if you're swearing a lot in the narration. There are exceptions, of course.

[britlitfantw]

I don't think kids say dipshit anymore.

Not true. Although I will admit that I do hang out with a strangely bohemian group of teenagers, we are teenagers all the same, and 'dipshit' has been used at least once in the last month or so -- and not in a, Hey, what old fashioned slang can we use today? sort of way. :)

To echo most of the other responses to this, I don't think swearing is a problem for YA, particularly upper-YA, as long as it's not gratuitous and as long as not every teenager swears, because, as Casiopeia pointed out, not all teenagers swear. I think some teenagers, myself included, are more likely to let loose in their thoughts or a journal, even if they don't necessarily have a foul mouth in public.

Just my two cents.

[eric11210]

Ironically, the reason I started my novel was because the school I used to work for kept banning novels and I was determined to write something good that would get by their censorship board. The irony is that I'm done with the novel, but don't work there anymore.

Not to mention that I realized I was really struggling to write a YA novel without a single curse word in it. I mean without even hell or damn, it was very, very hard to make it sound realistic.

I made the captain of the spaceship in my novel British because I was able to take advantage of lots British euphemisms. So when he wants to curse, he say things like "Bulox." or "What the devil?" There are also lots of "Bloody well get it done" and "Dear God" included. . . :D

Eric

[Glen T. Brock]

Hello folks,

Writting dialog isn't like taping it. If we try to express dialog the way it is spoken we will wind up with all kinds of grammatical problems. That said, the issue of swearing is like the use of spice--too little and it doesn't have an impact--too much and you spoil the broth.

I wouldn't use profanity unless it enhances the scene. I've found over the years that graphically realistic material isn't particularly lasting. However, clever usage of language instead of the street jargon can be very memorable. Anyone remember the movie ONE EYED JACKS, starring Marlin Brando and Karl Malden? Whoever wrote that screenplay did one hell of a job with the dialog. Brando's character, a churlish outlaw, uses epitaphs that are so close to profane that the viewer immediatly connects them. For example, when he kicks Slim Pickens practically unconcious he shouts "Get up, you tub of guts! On your feet you sack of spit!" Extremely effective!

Glen T. Brock

[Cassiopeia]

If not one single swear word ended up in a YA novel, and noone mentioned it...would it be noticed? I don't think swearing enhances any scene, in life or in fiction. But that is just my opinion.

[moondance]

I made the captain of the spaceship in my novel British because I was able to take advantage of lots British euphemisms. So when he wants to curse, he say things like "Bulox." or "What the devil?" There are also lots of "Bloody well get it done" and "Dear God" included. . . :D


All phrases that I use every day in place of the good old 'fuck'... (?!?)

sorry, it's just that those British phrases are about 50 years out of date, LOL ;)

[Cassiopeia]

All phrases that I use every day in place of the good old 'fuck'... (?!?)

sorry, it's just that those British phrases are about 50 years out of date, LOL ;)
That is interesting because I know many people living in Britian today and they say bullox. Of courese they know how to use the good ole F word as well. Just saying...

[NTG]

Then...perhaps we should consider the question: are young adults actually encouraged to swear by reading it in books?

One can only speculate, but my guess would be yes. The more they see/hear it around them, the more they think it's OK, and the less they try to avoid or hide it. And overall usage thus increases. And that raises the question of whether it is better to try to stem the tide of coarse language by avoiding it oneself, or better to just be honest and open and accepting about it, or better to try to maintain a standard of public civility that is a bit higher than ones' private, casual standard, and higher than the mean standard of the crowd. (Not in front of ladies, children, preachers, etc.)
Good question for a discussion. Answers will vary.


BTW: With reference to the "mean" (average) standard. . .have you ever noticed how many derogatory words are essentially synonyms for "average"?


mean
common (a favorite insult among my childhood friends)
ornery (pronounced ON'ry and derived from ordinary)
vulgar
profane


Is this a sympton of elitism among the language-crafters, or is it merely a fact that being average leaves a lot to be desired?

Just FFT (food for thought)

[Fillanzea]

If not one single swear word ended up in a YA novel, and noone mentioned it...would it be noticed? I don't think swearing enhances any scene, in life or in fiction. But that is just my opinion.

It depends. There are a lot of YA novels that have no swearing or very minimal swearing. But sometimes swearing ends up being a part of characterization-- if you write about street gangs, or punk bands, and the characters' speech is squeaky-clean, or you use circumlocutions to get around your swearing (see Stephanie Tolan's "Surviving the Applewhites"... IMO) then readers might have a hard time believing in them.

[Rob B]

I noticed in your bio that you write YA and children's fiction. If you're writing in the same genre's, what are the Judy Blume's of the world doing today? I'd pay attention if I wanted a mainstream publisher. Your bio also mentioned your are published. If you still have an agent relationship, and you're comforable with it, that's the first place I'd go, because she/he is likely
going to have a opinion based on empirical knowledge. This way you won't get crossed up and perhaps vitiate some good opportunites if your work
might be viewed as controversial, unless you think profanity is the necessary ingredient to guarantee the uniqueness or the integrity of your story line, which, of course, is something only you can answer.

[KiraOnWhite]

Profanity should be used only at appropriate moments--these are teens you are writing, not sailors. And usually, profanity is not that appropriate for portraying bratts--they usually just ladden it on with accusations and preaching, often using 'proper language' to seem smart. Also, crude sexual references seem to be used more commonly, at least from where I come from.

By the way, let me share with you this cool new trick I learned in another forum...

Fire trUCK

[skelly]

Then...perhaps we should consider the question: are young adults actually encouraged to swear by reading it in books?
I pretty much agree with what was already said about this. In the YA novel that I recently completed my characters swear as bad or worse than I do. I realized later that most of it was just an attempt at being "edgy." It turns out that most of the subject matter of the book is already edgy enough, and the swearing was actually pushing my story over the top. Another thing that I found was that too much swearing, particularly the coarser type, gives the book an "adult market" feel that I did not want. Now in my fifth revision of this novel, I am removing most of the swearing. Where I feel that it is absolutely necessary--either for emphasis or characterization--I am replacing actual vulgarity with a watered-down version. Freaking for fucking, crap for shit, and so on.

I may wind up cutting out those as well. It is a personal opinion, but I do sometimes think that we as writers can contribute to the coarsening of society by the words we choose. I realize that others would say that we are merely reflecting the coarseness that already exists. If that is the case, then it seems to me that the best way to make my characters seem different from all the kids my teen reader meets in real life would be to portray them without the bad language and other "typical" teen behavior.

[moondance]

I think to suggest that teens would be influenced into saying bad words by reading them in books is just crazy. The percentage of time that most teens spend reading books compared with their life with peers and watching TV is minimal. In fact, I venture to suggest that those teens who swear the most do not tend to read many novels. I speak as a generalisation, of course - there will always be exceptions.

I do not see my role as writer to provide sanitised versions of real life. If swearing is appropriate for the character in the book, I use it. I do not swear much in real life. However, when I do swear, I use it for effect, just as I do in books.

I would be interested to know what kind of split of opinion there is based on geography. I recently attended a writers' weekend in which several established writers bemoaned their problems with American publishers, who wanted them to sanitise their edgy books in some way (one editor insisted that two characters get married rather than cohabit, another insisted on a more 'upbeat' ending to a book about chemical warfare). Those books had been published without any problem here in the UK. My own teen novel, about self-harm (covering depression and parental weakness) has received rave reviews here in the UK but the US publishers won't touch it because of the 'difficult and unflinching' subject matter.

I don't think this is about swearing at all. I think it's about people's reluctance to expose young people to anything the slightest bit controversial. And, I am sure that some will disagree, it seems that the strongest voices advocating censorship in this way are coming from the US.

I should add, I am NOT looking to deliberately antagonise. It just seems strange to me that the world's superpower still believes that its people should be protected from the 'real world'.

[skelly]

I don't think this is about swearing at all. I think it's about people's reluctance to expose young people to anything the slightest bit controversial. And, I am sure that some will disagree, it seems that the strongest voices advocating censorship in this way are coming from the US.


Well, as I understood it, the thread was about "swearing." Your broad assertion that there is some conspiracy among US publishers to censor YA novels doesn't hold up, imo. I think they would publish YA books about necrophilia and pedophilia if they thought they could make a bunch of money on it. Apparently they don't see the market for it, and I would assume they would know, given that they have a vested interest in knowing what people want (and will pay) to read.

A large portion of my YA paranormal/mystery concerns a character who is a cutter, and who was sexually abused. I decided to cut the swearing precisely because it "voiced" wrong to me. It made the already weighty subject material read as if it were written toward an adult audience, which it is not. What you are describing leaves me to believe that in the UK there is no difference between an adult novel and a YA beyond the age of the characters. IMO, that is not enough of a distinction. There is this matter of "voice." And in that sense, at least for me, this "swearing" issue is indeed an important one.