Is Said dead

[Joe270]

I took a major hit on the "First Chapthers" contest because I never used 'said'. I used replied, rebuked, offered, etc. IMHO, seems to me that said is a last resort, if you can't take the line further, embellish it better with another more descriptive word. I see said as I see be verbs, avoid it. What's the take on this?

[MacAllister]

Nope. "Said" is invisible but not weak, and the perfect word for a dialog tag if you need one, pretty much always.

[Joe270]

Every time I have ever typed out 'said' I have thought, oooh, I'm writing. It just feels false to me. Almost an affectation (anybody got spellcheck?).

I feel (dang, why doesn't this have spell-check?) abnormal using said.

Ok, I admit it, I can't recall how to spell awkward, all right? Dang it, where's my dictionary.

[beezle]

accused
acknowledged
acquiesced
acquired
added
admitted
admonished
advised
agreed
alleged
allowed
alluded
announced
answered
apologized
appeased
approved
argued
articulated
asked
assented
asserted
assured
attributed
babbled
baited
barked
bawled
began
begged
believed
bellowed
beseeched
besought
bleated
blubbered
boasted
bragged
breathed
broke in
cackled
cajoled
calculated
called
cannonaded
caroled
cautioned
challenged
changed
charged
chatted
cheered
chided
chipped in
choked
chortled
chuckled
churned
cited
claimed
clamored
coaxed
comforted
commented
complained
conceded
concluded
concurred
confessed
confirmed
consented
consoled
contended
contested
continued
contributed
cooed
coughed
countered
cried
criticized
croaked
crooned
cross-examined
cursed
cussed
debated
decided
declared
declined
defended
demanded
denied
described
determined interrogated
dictated
discussed
drawled
droned
echoed
edited
ejaculated
elaborated
emphasized
ended
entreated
enumerated
enunciated
exaggerated
exclaimed
exhorted
explained
exploded
expostulated
extolled
faltered
feared
frowned
fumed
gagged
gasped
gibbered
giggled
gloated
goaded
grinned
groaned
growled
grumbled
grunted
guessed
guffawed
gulped
gurgled
gushed
hastened
hesitated
hinted
hissed
hollered
hooted
horned in
howled
imitated
implied
implored
informed
inquired
insinuated
insisted
interjected
interposed
interpreted
interrupted
intimidated
intoned
jabbered
jeered
jested
joked
lambasted
lamented
laughed
lectured
lied
listed
made known
maligned
marveled
mentioned
mimicked
moaned
mocked
mourned
mumbled
murmured
mused
muttered
nagged
nodded
noted
objected
observed
offered
ordered
panted
perceived
persisted
persuaded
pestered
piped up
pleaded
pointed
pondered
pouted
praised
preached
predicted
prevaricated
proceeded
proclaimed
prodded
profaned
professed
promised
prompted
prophesied
proposed
protested
purred
pursued
put in
quavered
queried
questioned
quibbled
quipped
quoted
railed
raved
recalled
recited
recommended
regretted
reiterated
rejoined
remained
remembered
reminded
remonstrated
renounced
repeated
replied
reported
reprehended
reprimanded
requested
resolved
responded
resumed
retorted
revealed
roared
rumbled
sang
sang out
scoffed
scolded
scorned
screamed
screeched
sermonized
shifted
shouted
shrieked
shrilled
shrugged
sighed
sizzled
slurred
slurred
smiled
smoldered
snapped
snarled
sneered
snickered
snorted
sobbed
soliloquied
soothed
specified
spelled
spoke
spurted
sputtered
squawked
squeaked
squealed
stammered
stated
stormed
stressed
struggled
stuttered
submitted
suggested
surmised
swore
sympathized
tantalized
tattled
taunted
teased
testified
thought
threatened
told
urged
uttered
vaunted
ventured
voiced
volunteered
wailed
want to know
warned
wavered
whispered
wondered
wore on
worried
yearned
yelled
yelped
yowled



And nearly every time, 'said' trumps them all.

[Medievalist]

The thing about said is that it is used so very very often that it's transparent.

[Joe270]

Ohmigod, Bee. I think I'll print your post for future use. Wow.

The transparent, over-used aspect strikes the main point here. Are you embarrased to actually stoop to it?

My favorite short is James J.'s "The Dead". He chose each word to have two meanings throughout. No said exists.

Still, can using all those suggestions Bee listed make it seem you avoid saying the overused, tired, cliche, busted, false 'said'. Kinda sucks, doesn't it?

[maestrowork]

I took a major hit on the "First Chapthers" contest because I never used 'said'. I used replied, rebuked, offered, etc. IMHO, seems to me that said is a last resort, if you can't take the line further, embellish it better with another more descriptive word. I see said as I see be verbs, avoid it. What's the take on this?

You have it backwards. Use "said" in most cases unless there's a good reason to use something else, such as "whisper."

So no, no, no, it's overused and transparent for a reason. So use it.

Dialogue tags should be transparent, and "said" is the most transparent. It helps leave the focus on the dialogue it self. Sometimes you don't even need the tags if it's clear who is speaking. Anything else just shifts the attention to the tag (he shouted, he bellowed, he offered) instead of the dialogue itself.

There's really no reason to embellish your tags just because you don't want to use "said." To do so means you're an amateur -- similar to those who think they must use the thesaurus to find big words, different words every time. And that's probably why you took a hit in the contest.

Another reason why you don't want to substitute every said with words like "offered, teased, retorted, roared": show vs. tell. If your dialogue is not good enough to show us that someone is "retorting," then you have failed to communicate even if you stick a "he retorted" at the end. Otherwise, "he retorted" is "telling" and redundant.

[Medievalist]

Use said, really.

My hand to . . . using the various alternatives is a mark of an amateur. Really.

It's called saidisms, and well, it's so common it's a slush-filtering signal. Sometimes, rarely, you might want a particular alternative because it imparts important information, but that's very very rare.

Go with said.

[Joe270]

Unbielivable, I am shocked here.

I suppose the transparent nature of said is the focus . . . or lack there of.

I started with novels, but have focused more on screen/teleplays lately. Each word is important. So said gets a pass here.

I have seen your both of your posts and respect your opinions. Still, I wonder if this is truly the best way to write dialogue. Not trying to argue, you guys both know better than me.

[Medievalist]

Tell you what, you go get five novels you like and open 'em up. Look at random passages of dialog and see for yourself.

[maestrowork]

Unbielivable, I am shocked here.
I have seen your both of your posts and respect your opinions. Still, I wonder if this is truly the best way to write dialogue. Not trying to argue, you guys both know better than me.

Yes. It's not just an opinion; it's best practice according to many professional, seasoned writers, including Stephen King, who has talked about "saidism."

Whoever told you you should use other words instead of "said"? Were they published authors?

Why is it shocking? "Saidism" actually is a common problem among inexperienced writers. Your skepticism isn't really unqiue. I mean, if "said" is bad because it's transparent and "overused," then I suppose we should never use the following words either: I, you, they, he, she, it, is, are, was, were, call, ask.... and the list goes on. What's next? Use the thesaurus for every common word?

Like I said, there are times when other words might be useful instead of "said." "Whisper" is an example, if the character is indeed whispering something. Usually, the tag becomes important if there's no other way to convey an action (such as whisper) using only the dialogue. Again, the focus should be on the dialogue, not the tag.


Like Medievalist said, read a few current adult novels (children and YA have different takes on this) and see how the writers handle dialogue tags.

[maestrowork]

Here, I took the liberty of looking through some mainstream/lit books I have:

From Mystery of Pittsburgh by one of the best contemporary writers, Michael Chabon:

"I saw Lenny Stern this morning," he said. "He asked after you. You remember your Uncle Lenny."

"Sure," I said, and I thought for a second about Uncle Lenny.... (page 1)
...
I said, "I anticipate a coming season of dilated name and of women all in disarray." (page 2)
...
"That was him, Sandy," she said. (page 4)


Here's from The Lovely Bones:


"Mr. Harvey," I said. (page 6)
...
"Fine," I said. I was cold, but the natural authority of his age, and the added fact that he was a neighbor and had talked to my father about fertilizer, rooted me to the spot.

"I've built something back here," he said. "Would you like to see?"

"I'm sort of cold, Mr. Havey," I said, "and my mom likes me home before dark."

"It's after dark, Susie," he said. (page 7)



From The Rocket by Ray Bradbury:


"You're the best father in the world," she whispered.

"Why?"

"Now I see," she said. "I understand."

She lay back and closed her eyes, holding his head. "Is it a very lovely journey?" she asked.

"Yes," he said.

"Perhaps," she said, "perhaps, some night, you might take me on just a little trip, do you think?"

"Just a little one, perhaps," he said.

[Julie Worth]

Tell you what, you go get five novels you like and open 'em up. Look at random passages of dialog and see for yourself.

Looking at the first few pages of Tortilla Flat, I suddenly find that Steinbeck committed many sins. He’s all over the place with tags, and he’s not adverse to adverbs either.

he muttered savagely
he said naively
he said sadly
Pilon added rhythmically . . . added helpfully . . . added hopefully . . .
Danny demanded
Pilon went on.
Pilon answered him sternly

Of course, it worked, so you can’t argue with that.

[Joe270]

I don't know where my said phobia stems from. Most likely it's a screenplay habit, but I don't know for certain.

I get it now, said is so common, so simple readers scan through it quickly, so the dialogue stays in focus better.

[Medievalist]

Looking at the first few pages of Tortilla Flat, I suddenly find that Steinbeck committed many sins. He’s all over the place with tags, and he’s not adverse to adverbs either.

Yeah, Steinbeck also is adverb happy in general; he just is. But most of those instances he's really providing extra information, important information, about the speaker's delivery/mood.

[Anthony Ravenscroft]

Dialogue tags are what Arthur Plotnik called stage management (William Sloane & Lawrence Block expressed similar sentiments in their books) & I less-politely call raisin-crapping. When you tell your characters to make animal noises while they read their lines, it's forced & intrusive -- imagine how irritated a director would get if your script was loaded with such niggling. Anytime you use something with more curlicues than "said," you're calling attention to your writing (& your presumed cleverness), which disrupts the reader's suspension of disbelief. If you go bad, you'll end up writing accidental Tom Swifties that'll make people snicker at you.

At best, dialogue tags are melodrama -- Wikipedia has a good entry for this term, & I recommend you read it.

Can these things be used? Sure! ...when you're purposely trying to do an over-the-top scene, or maybe playing the purpleness for laughs. Or if you're already of a stature approximating Steinbeck.

I just got done slogging through a ghastly novella, "The Gift of Nothing" by Joan Holly, that is obsessed with tagging every snippet of dialogue, & telling the reader how to interpret the scene that's unfolding. I estimate that chopping this patronising current out would reduce the story by almost 10%.

Harlan Ellison says these things were common in the heyday of the pulp genre magazines, because you were getting paid by the word, so only someone with a real job could afford to write tersely & to the point.

My preference is to avoid tags except to clarify. If you've got a dialogu, do you really need many reminders? And even if there's more, do all your characters talk the same way? (If so, your stage-directions are taking up the slack of shaky writing, which is probably where you should focus.)

[maestrowork]

I don't know where my said phobia stems from. Most likely it's a screenplay habit, but I don't know for certain.

Actually, in screenplay you don't tag dialogue. So where does that come from? Now, if you're talking about stage direction such as:

GUY
(yells dejectedly)
I can't believe you did that!!!


... my advise is that less is more. I personally dislike stage directions unless it's really important. Otherwise, let the context speak for itself and let the director/actor work it out.

[Provrb1810meggy]

I sense your confusion, Joe270. I used to barely use "said," because teachers always drilled "Said is dead," into us, telling us to use more descriptive verbs. Then, I came to AW where said was anything but dead. I made up my mind, settling in the said is anything but dead camp, because I think it flows better in writing. Of course, you could sprinkle more descriptive verbs in dialog tags when appropriate.

[Joe270]

Sorry, Maestro, I wasn't specific enough. I'm refering to the descriptive passages in screenplays. Peppering adverbs in descriptive passages turns off many professional readers, so I've read and been told. I suppose it's a cheating way to insert direction.

I've never sold a dang thing, so I'm no expert.

[maestrowork]

Right. Always consider the right verbs and nouns. Especially in screenplays, adverbs and adjectives don't mean much, except to move things along. "He walks out angrily" doesn't mean anything visually, but "he kicks the trash can on his way out" does.

But "said" in novels are different. Again, it's a transparent word, and is very useful in bringing the dialogue to the front -- the tag's main purpose is to identify who is speaking. In screenplay, this is achieved by the character line, so no "said" is needed. Again, it's transparent. You don't want to draw attention to it except to know who is speaking. Let the dialogue shine on its own.

[Medievalist]

I'd also suggest avoiding "ejaculated" in dialog tags :D

[scarletpeaches]

Dialogue tags draw attention to themselves - pulling the reader out of the suspended disbelief state.

'Said' is the only one which doesn't do this.

[Joe270]

scarletpeachesDialogue tags draw attention to themselves - pulling the reader out of the suspended disbelief state.

'Said' is the only one which doesn't do this.

Well, after Mideival's example, I doubt I'll ever forget this.

[maestrowork]

Not to mention the Tom Swiftly.

[scarletpeaches]

I'd also suggest avoiding "ejaculated" in dialog tags :D

Unless your pages are laminated.

[maestrowork]

Just don't follow with: she gulped or he gushed.

[Shady Lane]

I spent years in school learning about descriptive dialogue tags, and doing writing exercises with "gasped" and "chortled" and "inquired." Conclusion: Said rocks.

[scarletpeaches]

Just don't follow with: she gulped or he gushed.

Bannination for that man!

[Joe270]

Why does every thread I get interested in get shifted to the Erotic board?

Get a grip, people.

Oh, no. Here we go again.

[maestrowork]

Don't blame yourself. Blame Scarlet.

Or Blame Dawno (in case you don't understand... it's a bit of an inside joke).

[scarletpeaches]

Blame me? Why me? I'm innocent - a good girl, I tell ya. A good girl!

[maestrowork]

"I'm a good girl, I am," she bellowed.

"Gutter snipe," he laughed. "Squashed cabbage. Mrs. Peares, take her upstairs and wallop her!"

[Devil Ledbetter]

What a character says, the gestures she uses while saying it and the context in which she speaks, should be adequate to convey tone in all but the rarest of circumstances.

I've even found I can do away with "whispered" by having the character lean in, and maybe cup his hand near someone's ear.

DL

[Julie Worth]

I've even found I can do away with "whispered" by having the character lean in, and maybe cup his hand near someone's ear.

She leaned closer, cupping her hand to his ear. "Idiot!" she shouted.

[KCH]

JulieWorth,
She leaned closer, cupping her hand to his ear. "Idiot!" she shouted.

LOL!

[maestrowork]

See, in this case, "shouted" is needed.

[Julian Black]

When I was a kid, some of my English teachers insisted we use a variety of verbs--and even adverbs--in dialogue tags. They'd provide mimeographed handouts with lists of alternatives to "said," similar to the one posted upthread. I remember getting a B instead of an A on one story because I used "said" too often!

And yet, in all of my favorite books, the authors used "said."

It wasn't until a recent conversation with a fellow writer that I finally learned why those lists of alternatives to "said" exist. My friend used to be a high school English teacher. The goal of writing classes, he said, was not to make good fiction writers of his students, but rather to expand their overall level of skill in written English. The "alternatives to said" lists are about building vocabulary and getting students to think about using a wider variety of words.

Some teachers also teach adverb use alongside the alternatives to "said," leading to crappy dialogue tags such as "sighed wearily," "murmured fondly," etc.

I use "said." I also use "asked," "replied," and "added." Those four words pull about 95% of the weight as far as my dialogue tags are concerned. On the rare occasions when I need to use something more specific--"called," "whispered," "muttered," etc.--I'll use them, but I'm picky about which words are acceptable. They have to describe actual types of human speech, not other actions. For example, I'd never write something like this:
"Oh, don't be ridiculous, darling," she laughed.Laughing is not speaking. They are separate actions--you either laugh, or you speak. And yes, you can sort of do both at the same time, but they are still two distinct actions.

Instead, I'd write it like this:She laughed. "Oh, don't be ridiculous, darling."Or even:"Oh, don't be ridiculous, darling," she said, laughing.

[Joe270]

Julian,

As Maestro suggested, I went back to check a whole bunch of novels. Seems to me, in my rapid scan, that your proportion is pretty close. Those four words are about 95% of tags all right.

I got some rewriting to do. Gee, thanks, public education.

[gp101]

Sorry, Maestro, I wasn't specific enough. I'm refering to the descriptive passages in screenplays. Peppering adverbs in descriptive passages turns off many professional readers, so I've read and been told. I suppose it's a cheating way to insert direction.

I've never sold a dang thing, so I'm no expert.

You're correct here. I spent a decade trying to break through with screenplays, wrote six of them, had a manager, attended the conferences (sold ZERO), but I can't recall "said" being an issue in screenplays. It's just not used at all, nor are its many synonyms.

In novels, if I'm reading a dialogue exchange, by the time I get to the third or forth different alternative for "said" I'm either laughing or rolling my eyes. Takes me right out of the story. The alternatives usually are physically impossible to actually accomplish. "he laughed"; "he snorted"; "he spit" are impossible--or at least awkward--ways to deliver dialogue. A character can laugh, snort, spit during dialogue, but delivering an entire line while doing any of these is... challenging.

Other alternatives, as has been mentioned, are redundant. If a character retorted or countered it should be obvious in his actual dialogue. If it's not, you're taking the easy way out and telling us in the dialogue tag what should have been obvious in the dialogue. If the dialogue does show us he retorted, then no need to be redundant by telling us he retorted with the tag "he retorted".

The only reason we need and forms of said is to know who is talking. If you have just two characters talking, you need hardly any tags. If you have more than two characters talking, "said" does its intended job and the dialogue and action should relay the characters intentions and emotions. For these reasons, "said" is perfect and does become invisible. Said alternatives, and Tom Swifties, are weak.

"Said" is not dead.

Long live "said".

[YoshimiKazu]

Looking at the first few pages of Tortilla Flat, I suddenly find that Steinbeck committed many sins. He’s all over the place with tags, and he’s not adverse to adverbs either.

he muttered savagely
he said naively
he said sadly
Pilon added rhythmically . . . added helpfully . . . added hopefully . . .
Danny demanded
Pilon went on.
Pilon answered him sternly

Of course, it worked, so you can’t argue with that.



Wow... I feel much, much better about my work now. That's my cardinal writing sin. I sometimes replace said with replied or answered or something like that, but... it just seemed corny somehow to me to get much more 'inventive' than that. After reading some of this thread, I'm going to seriously consider taking out some of those forced alternatives and stick with said more often. I was under the impression that the above sort of style was also worthy of public flogging, but then it always seemed to accomplish more than said or answered, by giving an impression of how things were said, which seemed to add to the mood or feeling of the dialog. But often rather than saying 'said' I'll just leave the dialog all by itself. I figure if it's not important for us to know how it's said, and it's just being said... the reader can gather that.

Pardon my newbieness. lol

I don't know that I much follow any 'style' though in terms of doing or not doing this or that. I try to shoot for whatever works in the moment without taking away from the piece. I just tend to go a little overboard sometimes, I think, with things like the above, where you have people always answering in a particular way... retorted dryly, answered peevishly, etc... I was just under the impression that this made me a prime candidate for being tarred and feathered. ^.^

But then I haven't gotten deep enough into the technical (rather than substantial) editing part of my work to give this much more thought than that.


*Edit ... I have to add that one story I'm working on deals with a wholly non-English speaking cast... so in that book, I have the unique problem of dealing with common phrases being converted to English, but which really have no better translation than one or two. So you'll get totally different characters using the same basic phrase, because it's a popular expression those two types would actually be likely to use in the native language. If I fudge it over so it sounds different in English, then some other things I've done playing on the original language's nuances wouldn't fly... so in that story, I almost HAVE to rely on tags that say how they said it if it's relevant information to know, because you get these phrases which have like... one translation... but nevertheless are used by everyone from snot-nosed punks to businessmen. The language I'm working with leaves not much room for difference of translation, because the difference in the usage of the phrases in the original language vary chiefly in what amounts to spoken punctuation... which you can't really translate. Therefore the difference lies in the inflection lost in that we have no "spoken punctuation" type words in English.

Any thoughts on this? (Besides that it's perhaps career suicide to do a book the dialog of which more or less amounts to subtitles? ^,^)

[Lindo]

Shut up, he explained.

[Jordygirl]

(children and YA have different takes on this) and see how the writers handle dialogue tags.

What are the YA takes on this? As a YA (unpublished) writer, I'm interested in knowing what the common veiw is.
Personally I use "said" or "says" (if I'm writing in present tense) lots in my novels, but I also use other words if I feel like it makes the dialogue better or clearer.

Examples (from my current WIP).
And no, they don't go together. They make NO SENSE because each paragraph is from a different part in the story.

“Not until you answer,” she teases.
“Fine,” I huff. “Who do you like then?” Yeah, I’m turning the tables on her. Trying to get the spotlight off of me.

“It’s dark,” she points out.

“Mom!” she calls, “Dad! Kris is here! She’s staying over!”
A second later, Mrs. Johnson’s head sticks out of the kitchen, red curls going every which way. “Oh, Kris,” she says graciously. “Come in, come in. Excuse the chaos,” she gives a little laugh. “Everything’s a little hectic right now, you know?”
“Yeah,” I say, feeling a little bit bad for her. “Sorry about it all.” Because I feel like I should say that, that sorry word.
“Oh, not your problem. You girls can leave your shoes and all out in the mud porch.” She smiles that gracious-host, kind-lady smile and heads back into the kitchen.
“Where’s Dad?” Leah hollers from the mud porch as we pull our socks off.
“Oh, he’s around. Upstairs fixing that door that’s off its hinges, I think,” Mrs. Johnson shouts back.

[Julie Worth]

Seems to me you're using tags and authorial asides to prop up the dialogue.



“Not until you answer,” she teases. she teases is telling, but not objectionable.
“Fine,” I huff. Try to huff that word. “Who do you like then?” Yeah, I’m turning the tables on her. Trying to get the spotlight off of me. Two cliches strung together.

“It’s dark,” she points out. This clangs in my ears. Says would be so much better!

“Mom!” she calls, Should be a period. “Dad! Kris is here! She’s staying over!”
A second later, Mrs. Johnson’s head sticks out of the kitchen, red curls going every which way. “Oh, Kris,” she says graciously. Should be a comma “Come in, come in. Excuse the chaos,” Should be a period she gives a little laugh. “Everything’s a little hectic right now, you know?”
“Yeah,” I say, feeling a little bit bad for her. Little laugh, little hectic. Watch the littles “Sorry about it all.” Because I feel like I should say that, that sorry word. Is this necessary?
“Oh, not your problem. You girls can leave your shoes and all out in the mud porch.” She smiles that gracious-You just used the word graciously host, kind-lady Is there a difference between kind-lady and gracious-host that you need both? smile and heads back into the kitchen. She'd only stuck her head out before, right?
“Where’s Dad?” Leah hollers from the mud porch as we pull our socks off.
“Oh, he’s around. Upstairs fixing that door that’s off its hinges, I think,” Mrs. Johnson shouts back. This would read better if you moved the tag up: "Oh, he's around," Mrs. Johnson shouts. "Upstairs...

[JanDarby]

Beware of redundancy in the following examples:

“Not until you answer,” she teases. [The dialogue itself is the tease, so saying it's teasing is redundant And I don't think you can "tease" dialogue. She might be able to say it in a teasing tone, but "tease" is not a verb that involves speaking.]

“It’s dark,” she points out. [Again, the dialogue itself is pointing out that it's dark. Saying that she's pointing something out doesn't add to the dialogue.]

[Doug Johnson]

From Elmore Leonards 10 Rules of writing.

3. Never use a verb other than “said” to carry dialogue.
The line of dialogue belongs to the character; the verb is the writer sticking his nose in. But said is far less intrusive than grumbled, gasped, cautioned, lied. I once noticed Mary McCarthy ending a line of dialogue with “she asseverated,” and had to stop reading to get the dictionary.


4. Never use an adverb to modify the verb “said” . . .
. . . he admonished gravely. To use an adverb this way (or almost any way) is a mortal sin. The writer is now exposing himself in earnest, using a word that distracts and can interrupt the rhythm of the exchange. I have a character in one of my books tell how she used to write historical romances “full of rape and adverbs.”

[Doug Johnson]

I think asked and replied are OK.

[Stew21]

I use said if I must use a dialogue tag, though I try not to use any tags if I can avoid it by using an action associated with the character speaking to indicate who's talking.
The action indicates the speaker, and also the tone in which they are speaking, therefore, no need for a dialogue tag. In some conversations I don't want to bog the pace down with description, so don't use any tags or description at all.
The art of it for me is not only avoid said, but ALL tags where possible.
If I have to use one, it's said/asked/replied.

[Doug Johnson]

Here is one of the best dialogue writers applying his rule:

http://www.elmoreleonard.com/index.php?/weblog/more/up_in_honeys_room_excerpt

[Danger Jane]

I prefer to use no tags at all when I can help it. But if my readers get confused about who's talking, I might add tags or I might try to improve the dialogue or both.

Good example, Doug.

[JanDarby]

Adverbs after "said" can work if they CONTRADICT the dialogue. Like the classic (but it's a cliche, so don't use this one):

"I hate you," she said lovingly.

JD

[Anthony Ravenscroft]

Well, not so much contradict per se. But introducing irony or absurdity, sure... so long as it's a once-in-a-while thing, no more.

[Chasing the Horizon]

I despise dialogue tags period (including said, though it's the least annoying). I've written entire three-way conversations without ever saying who's speaking, through a mixture of tagging with action and having characters with very different speech patterns/accents. I guess I give the readers the benefit of the doubt about being able to differentiate the speech patterns, but none of my betas seem confused. I do tag more in the first few chapters, so the reader has time to learn how everyone talks.

Having said that, when I do need a tag, I have a very limited list of what I'll use.
Said. (Used about 80% of the time)
Asked. (I personally hate it when questions are tagged with said. You don't say questions. You ask them)
Answered. (Again with the questions. I like the way it sounds better than 'replied', for some reason)
Whispered.
Shouted. (Redundant with an exclamation point, but I use exclamation points to communicate feeling more than volume. I use 'shouted' when it's said calmly but loudly, often because of distance or background noise)
Snapped. (Used very rarely, mainly because one of my characters is ridiculously impatient, and her tone isn't always clear from the dialogue itself. Sounded better than 'said impatiently')
Screamed. (I think I use it twice in the entire MS. The character was hysterical, and shouted just wasn't doing it for me, particularly when the dialogue ended in a question rather than an exclamation point)

The first book I ever read on writing was Stephen King's On Writing, so I've never believed said was dead. I also didn't attend public school, so my mind wasn't warped with all sorts of wrong ideas. :D

The tag must be followed by a comma, period, or the word 'as'. Absolutely no 'ly' words (like absolutely). The day one of my characters 'bellows angrily' is the day I give up on this whole writing thing.

I do have one character that hisses, but she's a snake. In fact, I even have some that bellow, but, of course, they're dragons. None of the above actually speak words, so there's nothing to tag.

And yes, I have put far too much thought into this. :D

[CaroGirl]

...Asked. (I personally hate it when questions are tagged with said. You don't say questions. You ask them)...
I think that's claptrap. Everything you speak is "said". Questions are simply said in an interrogative form. That's like claiming any statement ending in an exclamation point must be tagged "he exclaimed" because you can't "say" an exclamation. IMO, you can use said, asked, inquired, or no tag for questions.

[Julie Worth]

I despise dialogue tags ...Having said that, when I do need a tag, I have a very limited list of what I'll use.
Said. (Used about 80% of the time)


Tags are good when you need a beat, or to replace those horrible ellipses. I just counted up the saids in my WIP (accounting for 80% of the tags) and I have one per page on average. Which is considerably fewer than I would have guessed.

[Jamesaritchie]

Adverbs after "said" can work if they CONTRADICT the dialogue. Like the classic (but it's a cliche, so don't use this one):

"I hate you," she said lovingly.

JD

And this works how? Just sounds like bad writing to me.

[Danger Jane]

I think that's claptrap. Everything you speak is "said". Questions are simply said in an interrogative form. That's like claiming any statement ending in an exclamation point must be tagged "he exclaimed" because you can't "say" an exclamation. IMO, you can use said, asked, inquired, or no tag for questions.


Yeah. I don't do this so often but once in a while a question just doesn't sound like a question when I hear the dialogue in my head. So I put said instead of asked or a period instead of a question mark, because that tone might not be obvious from the dialogue.

[Harvest]

I read one manuscript that used said in the first page seventeen times. (I was annoyed enough, I counted them).

It went like this:
comment, he said.
rejoinder, she said.
He said, comment.
She said something else.
But I don't agree with my own thoughts, she said, etc.

By the end of ten pages I wanted to pull out my hair.

I agree with the comment that if a person consistently falls back on tags, the dialogue is not strong enough.

I think said is viable, but I'd rather read that someone questioned/asked/commented sometimes than read said all the way down the page.

Which proves that writing is all about balance. :)

[gingerwoman]

Any editor or agent will tell you to stick with said. Truly editors laugh at and toss out books where the characters never say anything but instead snap shout scream and ejaculate. Believe me. Go to any writers conference they will tell you.

[donroc]

For what it is worth, I have seen writers use chortled. Is it really possible to speak a line of dialogue while simultaneously chuckling and snorting???? Is it possible for any of us to chortle? At least not in polite company, I trust.

www.donaldmichaelplatt

[lkp]

Every time I see this thread header, I think yer all talking about Edward Said.
Never mind; carry on.

[Monkey]

I worried about said in my first couple of novels. I basically fixed it one of three ways:

(Imagine two Monkeys, Monkey1 and Monkey2, just like the Things in Cat in the Hat)

"I broke up the dialogue like this."

"Just one sentence after another?"

"Yup. Just one sentence after another, each on a new line, so that we know when one person shuts up and the next starts yapping."

"Oh, shut up."



or I did it like this:


Monkey1 sighed. "I'll never finish this darn thing."

Monkey2 just grinned.




or, often, I did it like this:



"Why are we still talking about this?"

Monkey2 furrowed her brow. "About what?"

"About the word 'said', and whether or not to avoid it."

"We were talking about that?"

"Yes," Monkey1 answered.



:D I'm sure you are all riveted by my conversation writing SKILZ. :D

[sohalt]

My favorite short is James J.'s "The Dead". He chose each word to have two meanings throughout. No said exists.



Just a random passage:

Gabriel paused for a few moments, watching her, and then said:
"Gretta!"
She turned away from the mirror slowly and walked along the shaft of light towards him. Her face looked so serious and weary that the words would not pass Gabriel's lips. No, it was not the moment yet.
"You looked tired," he said.
"I am a little," she answered.
"You don't feel ill or weak?"
"No, tired: that's all."

Are you sure you've ever read Joyce?
Just kidding.

See, that's the beautiful thing about "said" - it is so unobstrusive, you did not even notice it.

[michaeldevault]

My favorite all-time dialogue tag came in one of the Harry Potter books. J.K. Rowling, in all of her splendor, has no ability to not use "descriptive" verbs to describe her dialogue -- which is surprising because her dialogue runs so well that, most of the time, she doesn't even need attribution.

The dialogue went something along the lines of:

Harry opened the door and slipped into the dorm room.

"Harry!" Ron ejaculated.

Hand to God, she used it as an attribution.

While I found this thread electrifying, the one comment I would have liked to see more of is how to best write dialogue and fiction such that attributions aren't necessary. One good point, as Sol Stein put it, was to write paragraphs and actions such that the action preceding the quote is committed by the person speaking, as follows (and my apologies to the English language for the horrid example, if it turns out that way):

Sarah killed the ignition and sighed, relieved that her family was apparently out for the evening. Save her own car, the garage was empty. She wouldn't have to worry about explaining why she had been fired from yet another job -- her third in four months. She tossed her keys into the tray and glanced in the mirror above the table. Her father would blame this loss on her haircut or on her wardrobe. Sarah was glad they were gone. It would give her time to decompress. Turning the corner into the kitchen, she nearly tripped over a figure on the floor, scrubbing the baseboards with a tooth brush.

"Mom! What are you doing here?"

"Your father got called out of town."

"Where to this time?"

Her mother shrugged. "Who knows. Does it matter?"

An overwhelmingly vast majority of readers will immediately tie the quote to the precedent action, not once stopping to figure out "Who said that?"

If you get really good at it (and I'm sad to say the ones that are truly great at killing most attributions are the formula writers of the romantic fiction that gets made into summer comedies), you can go pages without an attribution.

[djf881]

I think that's claptrap. Everything you speak is "said". Questions are simply said in an interrogative form. That's like claiming any statement ending in an exclamation point must be tagged "he exclaimed" because you can't "say" an exclamation. IMO, you can use said, asked, inquired, or no tag for questions.

When people encourage you to only use "said," they're not trying to tell you to tag things that are exclaimed or shouted as "said," they're saying not to rely on tags to convey the emotions driving the scene.

Really, the tag should primarily be there to make sure the reader always knows who is speaking, and if you can use other action to signify this, you can use very few tags, so "said" shouldn't get repetitive.

I think "asked" is certainly okay, and "whispered" or "shouted" are probably all right as well, as long as you are describing relevant body language and not hanging adverbs on the ends of the tags.

You often don't need tags at all, and you should not use a tag just to convey that someone is shouting when you don't need one.

For example, instead of:

"[dialog]," he shouted, angrily.

you could have

He rose to his full height, and laid the palms of his hands flat on the table, leaning aggressively toward me on his thick arms, until his face was close enough to mine that I could count his heartbeat from the throbbing vein in his forehead.

"[dialog]."

I wiped flecks of his spittle off of my face.

[Keyan]

I'm finding this thread fascinating. I've been dutifully hunting down and destroying adverbs, and making sure that everything my characters say is said...

... and I'm reading a difficult-to-put-down book by Anne Perry. It has pages of dialogue. On each page, there are maybe two "saids" and neither of them unqualified.

She also has a generous hand with adverbs.

What can I say? It's a good read, and she's a very successful author.

[Well, I guess what I can say is, kiddies, don't try this at home until you're a very successful author...]

Does anyone have a page or two of Twilight to contribute to the discussion?

[bettielee]

accused
acknowledged
acquiesced
acquired
added
admitted
admonished
advised
agreed
alleged
allowed
alluded
announced
answered
apologized
appeased
approved
argued
articulated
asked
assented
asserted
assured
attributed
babbled
baited
barked
bawled
began
begged
believed
bellowed
beseeched
besought
bleated
blubbered
boasted
bragged
breathed
broke in
cackled
cajoled
calculated
called
cannonaded
caroled
cautioned
challenged
changed
charged
chatted
cheered
chided
chipped in
choked
chortled
chuckled
churned
cited
claimed
clamored
coaxed
comforted
commented
complained
conceded
concluded
concurred
confessed
confirmed
consented
consoled
contended
contested
continued
contributed
cooed
coughed
countered
cried
criticized
croaked
crooned
cross-examined
cursed
cussed
debated
decided
declared
declined
defended
demanded
denied
described
determined interrogated
dictated
discussed
drawled
droned
echoed
edited
ejaculated
elaborated
emphasized
ended
entreated
enumerated
enunciated
exaggerated
exclaimed
exhorted
explained
exploded
expostulated
extolled
faltered
feared
frowned
fumed
gagged
gasped
gibbered
giggled
gloated
goaded
grinned
groaned
growled
grumbled
grunted
guessed
guffawed
gulped
gurgled
gushed
hastened
hesitated
hinted
hissed
hollered
hooted
horned in
howled
imitated
implied
implored
informed
inquired
insinuated
insisted
interjected
interposed
interpreted
interrupted
intimidated
intoned
jabbered
jeered
jested
joked
lambasted
lamented
laughed
lectured
lied
listed
made known
maligned
marveled
mentioned
mimicked
moaned
mocked
mourned
mumbled
murmured
mused
muttered
nagged
nodded
noted
objected
observed
offered
ordered
panted
perceived
persisted
persuaded
pestered
piped up
pleaded
pointed
pondered
pouted
praised
preached
predicted
prevaricated
proceeded
proclaimed
prodded
profaned
professed
promised
prompted
prophesied
proposed
protested
purred
pursued
put in
quavered
queried
questioned
quibbled
quipped
quoted
railed
raved
recalled
recited
recommended
regretted
reiterated
rejoined
remained
remembered
reminded
remonstrated
renounced
repeated
replied
reported
reprehended
reprimanded
requested
resolved
responded
resumed
retorted
revealed
roared
rumbled
sang
sang out
scoffed
scolded
scorned
screamed
screeched
sermonized
shifted
shouted
shrieked
shrilled
shrugged
sighed
sizzled
slurred
slurred
smiled
smoldered
snapped
snarled
sneered
snickered
snorted
sobbed
soliloquied
soothed
specified
spelled
spoke
spurted
sputtered
squawked
squeaked
squealed
stammered
stated
stormed
stressed
struggled
stuttered
submitted
suggested
surmised
swore
sympathized
tantalized
tattled
taunted
teased
testified
thought
threatened
told
urged
uttered
vaunted
ventured
voiced
volunteered
wailed
want to know
warned
wavered
whispered
wondered
wore on
worried
yearned
yelled
yelped
yowled



And nearly every time, 'said' trumps them all.

what Beezle said.

[bettielee]

What can I say? It's a good read, and she's a very successful author.


I am not the only one who will point out "successful" doesn't mean right. Said bettielee.

[Keyan]

I am not the only one who will point out "successful" doesn't mean right. Said bettielee.

True, dat.

But ... what is the standard?
Conventions of "good writing" change over time and space.

So it brings me to a possibly unanswerable question: What is writing for? IMO, at a very basic level, it's to communicate thoughts to other people by evoking ideas and images in their brain. I'll specify that it's through the use of written words.

So if someone can get a whole lot of people to read her books, and they enjoy them, by what standard is it not right?

[Leila]

Said is best. Although variety is important as well. I like it when dialogue involves people doing things, which is one way to avoid tagging it with said or an equivilant, although the action has to be natural to the character and the situation, and there can't be too many of them. Otherwise it looks like everyone has a bad case of the fidgits.

True, dat.

But ... what is the standard?
Conventions of "good writing" change over time and space.

So it brings me to a possibly unanswerable question: What is writing for? IMO, at a very basic level, it's to communicate thoughts to other people by evoking ideas and images in their brain. I'll specify that it's through the use of written words.

So if someone can get a whole lot of people to read her books, and they enjoy them, by what standard is it not right?

Oh, god. I can't seem to go a day on this forum without ending up in an argument about this.

I think that a lot of it comes down to what you're reading for, as people want all sorts of different things out of books. Some people want ten things to blow up before the end of chapter three or a big sensational romance, basically a plot that keeps them awake all night to get to the end. They might not really care what the thing reads like, as long as it carries them along and keeps them reading. Other people, like me, read for other things. I like good prose and good characters. If you can tell me about interesting people and your sentences are good, I honestly don't care if nothing much happens for ages. But I really, really struggled to get through the Da Vinci code.

A lot of bestsellers out there are written for people who are in it for the plot more than anything else. And they sell plenty, because there are lots of people who read for that particular thing alone.

For me personally, a book with bad sentences is a failed book. I want sentences to either be invisible or noticably beautiful, and I hate it when they stumble and sound forced and the dialogue is full of obnoxious adverbs. I think that the whole thing is inexcusable. But then again, I would think that because good prose is one of the key things I read for. The things you read for might be totally different. And therefore you can write a successful story in a myriad of different ways.

On a totally different note, has anyone else noticed that the big list of synonyms beezle provided includes "horned in"? What on earth is "horned in" when it's at home?

[Clair Dickson]

Just to be contrary, as someone who reads a lot of books out loud (H.S. English teacher to kids who don't/won't read, have reading issues, etc.) said can get a bit repetitive in large batches. This usually comes up when three characters are speaking, but I really wish more authors would just drop the tag when there's just two people. It starts to read like a divorce proceeding... he said, she said, he said, she said, I ripped my hair out...

Said works best when a tag is required (with a few exceptions) and, honestly, dropping the tag is my preferred over all. Either give an action-- people don't stand stone still during conversations-- or just let the dialogue carry it.

[Keyan]

On a totally different note, has anyone else noticed that the big list of synonyms beezle provided includes "horned in"? What on earth is "horned in" when it's at home?

Horned in = interrupted or inserted (usually with the implication that the person horning in was not even supposed to be part of the conversation).

[ccv707]

Don't artificially enhance dialogue with quote tags and the such. Properly written dialogue, taken in with the setting and circumstances of the story, should be able to give you an idea of how people are speaking, without pointless additions like "exclaimed" and "pontificated" (I particularly hate the last one). It can distract, making people try to think of the character exclaiming and pontificating, rather than thinking about what is being said. A writer adept enough with dialogue should be able to write an entire novel-length ms without using anything other than "said".

[Keyan]

Don't artificially enhance dialogue with quote tags and the such. Properly written dialogue, taken in with the setting and circumstances of the story, should be able to give you an idea of how people are speaking, without pointless additions like "exclaimed" and "pontificated" (I particularly hate the last one). It can distract, making people try to think of the character exclaiming and pontificating, rather than thinking about what is being said. A writer adept enough with dialogue should be able to write an entire novel-length ms without using anything other than "said".

"Unless what is being exclaimed or pontificated is so complex that a reader can't do both simultaneously," she pontificated, "There is no reason to avoid tags solely for that reason."

"She's such a dumb bitch!" he exclaimed.
(Which is somewhat different from "She's such a dumb bitch," he said.)
(And even more different from: "She's such a dumb bitch," he said affectionately.)

I looked at two books, one by Scott Westerfield, the other by Anne Perry.
Westerfield's book teemed with Saids. Perry's didn't; she had maybe a ratio of perhaps one said to three other tags.

Both worked. The prose in each case had a different flavor, which was fine with me. Vive la difference!

[ccv707]

"She's such a dumb bitch!" he exclaimed.
(Which is somewhat different from "She's such a dumb bitch," he said.)
(And even more different from: "She's such a dumb bitch," he said affectionately.)

Yet you don't actually have to say that he is exclaiming what he's saying. Just give the dialogue--the exclamation point is self-explanatory, hence the name "exclamation point".

And anyone who uses the tag, "he said affectionately" shouldn't be writing, or at least shouldn't be taken seriously as a writer.

If you have two people talking in a continuous dialogue, you only need one tag at the very beginning to designate who speaks first--once again, self explanatory that if two people are engaged in a continuous conversation and "He" says the first thing, the other person is the one who responds, and so forth, ad infinitum.

This is basic. It shouldn't be up for interpretation. Sure, people write differently and, as I always say, there are no absolutes in writing, but there is little justification for using very many tags other than "said", since well written dialogue, taken in context with the story, quite literally speaks for itself.

[ccv707]

I despise dialogue tags period (including said, though it's the least annoying). I've written entire three-way conversations without ever saying who's speaking, through a mixture of tagging with action and having characters with very different speech patterns/accents. I guess I give the readers the benefit of the doubt about being able to differentiate the speech patterns, but none of my betas seem confused. I do tag more in the first few chapters, so the reader has time to learn how everyone talks.

Having said that, when I do need a tag, I have a very limited list of what I'll use.
Said. (Used about 80% of the time)
Asked. (I personally hate it when questions are tagged with said. You don't say questions. You ask them)
Answered. (Again with the questions. I like the way it sounds better than 'replied', for some reason)
Whispered.
Shouted. (Redundant with an exclamation point, but I use exclamation points to communicate feeling more than volume. I use 'shouted' when it's said calmly but loudly, often because of distance or background noise)
Snapped. (Used very rarely, mainly because one of my characters is ridiculously impatient, and her tone isn't always clear from the dialogue itself. Sounded better than 'said impatiently')
Screamed. (I think I use it twice in the entire MS. The character was hysterical, and shouted just wasn't doing it for me, particularly when the dialogue ended in a question rather than an exclamation point)

And yes, I have put far too much thought into this. :D

No, you haven't. Right on. Agreed on all counts.

[Keyan]

Yet you don't actually have to say that he is exclaiming what he's saying. Just give the dialogue--the exclamation point is self-explanatory, hence the name "exclamation point".

And anyone who uses the tag, "he said affectionately" shouldn't be writing, or at least shouldn't be taken seriously as a writer.

If you have two people talking in a continuous dialogue, you only need one tag at the very beginning to designate who speaks first--once again, self explanatory that if two people are engaged in a continuous conversation and "He" says the first thing, the other person is the one who responds, and so forth, ad infinitum.

This is basic. It shouldn't be up for interpretation. Sure, people write differently and, as I always say, there are no absolutes in writing, but there is little justification for using very many tags other than "said", since well written dialogue, taken in context with the story, quite literally speaks for itself.

I can't be as dogmatic about it as you are, having seen all of the above used successfully. And while it's true that well-written dialogue does speak for itself, using tags can introduce nuances that cannot be managed with the words alone.

I respectfully disagree with your absolute interpretations that someone who writes "he said affectionately" shouldn't be writing. I'm not sure what you mean by "take seriously as a writer." You mean his books shouldn't be read? Only if they're boring. *That* is the cardinal sin of a writer, not using the wrong dialogue tags. IMO.

[ccv707]

I don't recall ever saying using the wrong dialogue tags is the cardinal sin of writing, which I opine is plagiarism.

However, you don't have to use dialogue tags to introduce nuances. "He said affectionately"...sure, you get the idea that was he said was spoken with an affectionate tone, but what exactly do you see--or in this case hear--as a reader? Affection? Affection is an emotional response to external stimuli, a nuance that we're spoon feeding the reader. I'm sorry if you don't agree, but from what I've been taught throughout my young life, what I've heard from published writers, what I've learned through personal experience, is that one should rarely, if ever, tell an emotion, you show it. Whether you use body language, a nervous tick the character might have, or simply the context of the scene to show it, an emotion should not be told. Saying "He was sad" doesn't show the reader anything. Yes, he is sad, but what is sad? Crying? Head dipped? Large frown? The reader only sees sad, but doesn't see what the character is actually going through in the scene.

When I said one shouldn't be taken seriously as a writer, I meant this person hasn't read enough, written enough, and learned enough, to understand how to show "affection" without having to tell it. Someone who knows what they're doing should be able to write an entire novel-length ms by using said just about 80% of the time, if not more, and should never have to use a single "emotion describing" word, such as sad, upset, depressed, affectionately, and the such.

I'm not saying I'm above anyone--far from it. In fact, I'll readily admit that, in the past, I've done the very thing I'm advising against, using distracting quotes tags in the place of better writing. It's a lesson I've been been fortunate enough to have been taught early, both by myself (through reading and writing) and professionals who have been there and done that.

Yes, such tags have been used in successful books. Some good, some not so good. Mind you, successful does not inherently mean worth your time--Twilight can sell a billion copies, that does not make it a well written piece of art. Unfortunately, and this is true especially for American literature, the culture writers live in too often caters to people like Stephanie Meyer and Clive Cussler, who opt for cheap melodrama, misogyny, and lazy characterization that is easily accessible but without substance (convenient for a popcorn flick society), and, because of this, they sell millions of books.

The way I see it, the writer constantly learns, and never stops learning. As it should be. As people, we should always strive to continuously teach ourselves new ways to expand our understanding of things.

[wannawrite]

Okay. Thankfully I read this thread last week, just out of curiosity, and knew where to go in search of advice because I just recieved a 'revise and resubmit' from the pub I sent my mss. to. They seem really intrested in my work, but said that i needed to tweak a few things, and one of those things was dialogue tags. They say that I use too many, and that it slows down the story. Not that mine are 'bad' per say, just that I use too many.

Help.

Is there a forum that specifically addresses dialogue tags on this site? I am still sort of new here and find myself bumbling around a lot, in search of things.

Thanks in advance for your help.

[wannawrite]

Okay. I just read this entire thread through again, hoping for a little illumination, and now my head is really, really pounding, and I am terribly confused. One says one thing, another contradicts, and I am still in the dark. Help. Seriously.

[Nicholas T]

Every time I see this thread header, I think yer all talking about Edward Said.
Never mind; carry on.

Yep... I just stumbled into this thread fully expecting several pages of heated, personal, tearful debate on the relevance of postcolonial thought.

Trust me, the fate of dialogue tags is far more interesting.

Here's my rule of thumb concerning any writing advice you ever read: ask yourself if it reflects the kind of books you like to read (or better yet, the kind of books you would like to write). To either avoid "said" or use it all the time are equally limiting. Find a balance so it doesn't stick out either way - i.e. too many "saids" or too much said-aversion.

I'm not far along in my current project, but I tend to use dialogue tags sparingly so the reader is never in danger of losing track of who's speaking. Actions and gestures are a good substitute. If your dialogue flows well enough, many readers will skim over everything outside the quotation marks anyway, so don't lay any tripwires and you'll be okay.

And yes, as ccv707 noted, please be aware that a lot of mainstream bestselling authors aren't the kind of authors who place a premium on craft. This isn't to say their books are bad - it just means there's no expectation that anyone reads them for the prose.

("Well, that was easy." I clicked submit reply. "Look, ma! No dialogue tags!")

[Nicholas T]

Here's something else you can try if you're having trouble with tag glut. One technique I like to use to "draft" a dialogue-heavy scene is to write it like a play.


Character A: "Line of dialogue."

Character B: "My line of dialogue."

[Actions.]

Character A: "Another line of dialogue."


That's the first pass: no tags whatsoever.

On the second pass, consider where you want to highlight changes in mood or imply that a character is thinking of something, but not saying it aloud (and not thinking it aloud to the reader). That's where a subtle gesture might come in, or maybe a tag that indicates mood.

On the third pass, take the names and bracketed reminders away, and read over the dialogue again. There will be some places where it's not immediately obvious who's speaking. That's where you put the dialogue tags that don't really tell you anything, like "said".

Again, this is my method, and I won't even claim it's a particularly good method. But if you start with the dialogue tags out and only put them in at the end, you don't run the risk of having too many. In the process of revision, you're adding them instead of taking them away.

[Nicholas T]

Also (I should really quit posting here and get back to my own project, shouldn't I?) - there is one circumstance where you want dialogue tags to draw attention to themselves: when they run counter to the reader's expectations of how the line is read.

"I'll kill you!" she shouted.

Boooooring.

"I'll kill you!" she giggled.

Aha, now that's interesting - and it's not redundant, because the tag adds information.

Then again, "giggled" is kind of silly.

[Shadow_Ferret]

Okay. I just read this entire thread through again, hoping for a little illumination, and now my head is really, really pounding, and I am terribly confused. One says one thing, another contradicts, and I am still in the dark. Help. Seriously.

Use "said." Forget all the other silliness.

[wrinkles]

Okay. I just read this entire thread through again, hoping for a little illumination, and now my head is really, really pounding, and I am terribly confused. One says one thing, another contradicts, and I am still in the dark. Help. Seriously.

Use tags as little as possible. When you have to, use said.

[wannawrite]

I am so embarrassed. I just took a quick read of my mss, and it is so messed up. I can't believe I actually got a revise and resubmit on it. I WAS feeling all confident about my work. Now I feel like a big old dork. Looking at it critically, with fresh eyes and a straight forward agenda really, really makes the flaws jump out, huh?

Thanks to you all for your advice. I just reviewed the first chapt, and kept referring to this thread for advice. I appreciate all your help.

I am going to go get drunk now. There is a drinking thread around here somewhere, right? :) See you!

[Vito]

"The word 'said' is still alive and well in the novels of Elmore Leonard and Robert B. Parker", said Vito.

[Mr. Anonymous]

IMO,

Said often works better than other words, but alternatives and adverbs and such do have their place. Dialogue can often be interpreted in many different ways. In real life, we have body language to complement our dialogue, which aids in our interpretation (though sometimes we get it wrong anyway.) Granted, you can write body language into the narrative, but if you're constantly doing it, it'll get old. Alternatives/dialogue qualifiers are a more concise way of conveying a greater depth of expression. Using them definitely counts as telling, but good writers know how to use both showing and telling.

For example.

"Where's mom? I want mom!"

Original) "Settle down son." James said. "She went out to get some milk."

Now, let's look at that second sentence. Said definitely works, but let's take a look at the difference some alternatives can make.

1) "Settle down son," James barked. "She went out to get some milk."

2) "Settle down son," James said gently. "She went out to get some milk."

The father comes off very differently depending on the alternatives that are used. And while the author might have, say, number 1 in mind when he writes the original sentence, to someone else it might come off as number 2. Point being, just using said can potentially leave the author's real meaning, the character's true feelings/intentions ambiguous.

Granted, there are other ways to show the father's personality. But I don't necessarily think that this sort is "bad" unless it is overused.

[blacbird]

Granted, there are other ways to show the father's personality. But I don't necessarily think that this sort is "bad" unless it is overused.

Problem being, especially for inexperienced writers, that it takes very little of this kind of stuff to constitute "overused". If you don't need it at all, or if there's a more effective way to show the same thing, once is overused. Most examples of such that I've seen in manuscripts result from pure laziness on the part of the writer.

caw

[ccv707]

Problem being, especially for inexperienced writers, that it takes very little of this kind of stuff to constitute "overused". If you don't need it at all, or if there's a more effective way to show the same thing, once is overused. Most examples of such that I've seen in manuscripts result from pure laziness on the part of the writer.

Agreed on every point. Of everything I've said on this thread, this hits the nail square on the head just about perfectly.

[GD Marks]

Hi.

I just read this thread to 'understand' better. I think I do.

What I on-a-side-note would like clarified:

1) What is a Tom Swiftie?
I just figured this out on another thread!!

Tom Swifties are an excellent writers' party game, of course:

"Thanks for shredding the cheese," Tom said gratefully.

"Someone stole my wheels," Tom said tirelessly.

"Venus de Milo is a beautiful statue," Tom said disarmingly.

from post #20 by David I: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104277&highlight=swiftie

and

2) What is 'purpleness'?
Some clarity over this one would be great - I've seen it in a few places here.
That's all..

gdm.

[Priene]

2) What is 'purpleness'?
Some clarity over this one would be great - I've seen it in a few places here.


I've not seen the word purpleness before, but I'm guessing it refers to purple prose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_prose).

[GD Marks]

That's it. Why didn't I just wiki it???

Thanks Priene.

[blacbird]

1) What is a Tom Swiftie?

Please don't start this. Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze.

caw

[Newguy1428]

I took a major hit on the "First Chapthers" contest because I never used 'said'. I used replied, rebuked, offered, etc. IMHO, seems to me that said is a last resort, if you can't take the line further, embellish it better with another more descriptive word. I see said as I see be verbs, avoid it. What's the take on this?

Hey Joe, I'm sorry to hear that. I wrote some stories about ten years ago where I had dropped the 'said', the dialogue was going back an forth. My friends told me they couldn't figure out who was talking, I used paragraph breaks, and I thought, "hey, what about putting one character's line in another's mouth?"

Well, it works in comedy, like when somebody steals a punchline. Or, when one character is hogging the scene, just let another have his or her line.

[StandJustSo]

This is how I handled a dialogue scene in my novel:



You can’t tell anyone, Neil.”

Shock flared down his spine. What is she talking about? “Tell them what? That we’re together?”

She shook her head, hair swinging from the desperate denial. “We’re not together – this was a mistake.” Her chest hitched. “I can’t believe I did this – I’ve ruined things with Garrett.”

“I’ll talk to him,” he stroked her arm, trying to reassure and ease her misgivings, even as his own rose sharply. “he’ll understand.”

“You’re not telling Garrett. You’re not telling anyone."

What’s wrong with her?

He leaned closer. “Heather, I-"

“Don’t!” The word burst from her. “Just – would you just leave?”

[Molfitz]

Enough said.