From Hell

[wordmonkey]

OK, so I know we have the Cult of Moore floating around here, and far be it from me to question his greatness, but...

...well...

...in this case, I have to question his editing.

It seems to me that it's a little flabby in places. I find it strange, because usually you can read his stuff and you can't really think where something might have been better left out. (I'm talking specifically about the comics and their structure, not the movie adaptions which NEED to make cuts and pare it down tot he plot bones - and consequently loose a lot of the nuance.)

If you assume my hypothesis for a moment, is it because he's trying to work a plot around real events?

There are also aspects that come off as a little contrived. Same reason?

I know he did a boat-load of research for the project and formed his own theories as to the actual facts of the case (aside from the delusional/mystical elements), but some of it comes off like he just didn't know where to stop... so he didn't.

I'll get my flame-retardant suit out now.

[Stacia Kane]

*charges flamethrower*

I haven't read From Hell in a couple of years, so I may not be the right one to comment, but...

of course I don't agree.

To be honest, I think it's one of those "Do you like the extended edition of The Stand better or the edited version" types of questions; it's a matter of personal taste.

A couple of things occur to me. I think so many things about the period fascinated Moore (and still do, it seems) and he wanted to fit them all in. I think he was trying to make a statement about coincidence and how our actions reverberate in society as a whole, or how evil takes root without us noticing if we aren't vigilant, and about how power corrupts. So in a way the story of Jack the Ripper was a story about an entire society at that time, and he wanted us to see that. It was more than just some hookers being butchered, but at the same time that's all it was. If that makes any sense.

When I think back to stuff that could have been left out, though, the only thing that really jumps out at me at all was the Hitler conception thing, which again, I think was just a fascinating tidbit and also fit the larger theme.

[scarletpeaches]

My judgement on this goes solely by the film. I apologise for this fact!

I wonder if those who have read the graphic novel and seen the film could tell me - does the film stick closely to the book?

Because if so, I must take issue with some 'facts' about the case.

My dad is something of a Ripperologist and I was brought up surrounded by his true crime books - none of which were ever forbidden to me. So now I'm hooked on Ripperology. (Trust me, that's a proper word). And my dad and me agree that the film was 99% fiction, nothing to do with the case at all.

I'd be very disappointed to discover the novel was the same. Of course, films are made to entertain but us 'fans of Jack' are quite precious when it comes to sullying his good name...*ahem*

You know what I mean. ;)

[wordmonkey]

Scarlet... you scare me.

[wordmonkey]

Spoiler thing as a courtesy. I woulda thought if you read beyond the initial post, you've read of seen the movie.

I got the subtext. The whole lower classes trying to make a living and being deemed unworthy, while the more acceptable society are the ones who commit the true crimes in the story. That Gull comes from the lower classes to become as high as he does, only to fall again. Get it all.

I'm thinking that it just could have been done so much tighter. It feels a little self indulgent. And I don't say that as a slam on Moore. I think we ALL do that. But that's why we have Editors. Even if he brought the project to the publisher as is, they still have an editorial panel, surely?

The whole Lees part, came off like a contrivance. It's a convenient plot device.

And Pruitt. He comes off like one of those things that Moore wanted to include and forgot about, then remembered and did, just so he could give the epilog a bit of gravitas.

The internal politics of the police and beyond could have been cut.

Sickert seemed such a pivotal character and then just gets dropped. He knows what's happened, we see he feels guilt/remorse/something, but then he's gone.

And Abberline's connection to Kelly came off as a tease. Oh I know there was an element of happenstance about it, mirrored by the part of who dies. But given Moore obviously works in a fantastic element to the whole thing, making this a piece of fiction, it's just left hanging.

Maybe I was spoiled by his straight fiction. Maybe real life pales in comparison to his plotting. I was just disappointed.

And just to add fuel to the flamethrowers, the art didn't work for me either. I liked the art, I just thought it was wrong for Moore. He usually has character heavy work, and all the ladies-of-the-night looked alike, and the gentlement looked a like, so it made it difficult at times to work out exactly what was going on with who. Now I could see a creative reason to do this, to point out that all invloved were the same, no different, no better, no worse, but ultimately it didn't work for me.

And the real folk cameos came off as lily-gilding. Though I can see why he did this, but on top of everything else, I was less willing to cut him some slack.

If I hadn't read some of his other stuff, and knew what he could do, I wouldn't be inclined to pick up his stuff again, and I'd wonder what all the fuss was about. I think he uses his research and reference material much better in other works I've read.

[scarletpeaches]

Scarlet... you scare me.

Why thank you, kind monkey. :)

[Stacia Kane]

Hmmm. Like I said, I need to reread to have an opinion everything you're talking about. I don't remember some of it.

I can say, though, that the internal police stuff was pretty pivotal. Not only did it tie in to Moore's theory, but police squabbles are responsible for one of the big Lost Pieces of evidence--"The Juwes are the men who will not be blamed for nothing".

Did it say "Juwes" or "Jews"? Did it say "will not be blamed for nothing" or "will be blamed for nothing"? Did the Ripper write it, and if so, what did his handwriting look like? Could we have matched it to the "From Hell" letter?

We'll never know, because no photograph was taken, thanks to internal police squabbles and jurusdictional arguments.

When I did Rumbelow's Ripper walk, he focused heavily on the internal police stuff, too.

*adds From Hell to the re-read list, as soon as I've finished rereading the entire Sandman.*

[scarletpeaches]

...police squabbles are responsible for one of the big Lost Pieces of evidence--"The Juwes are the men who will not be blamed for nothing"...

Actually that was down to Sir Charles Warren claiming he feared an uprising against the Jews.

PC Alfred Long said it read, "The Jews are the men that will not be blamed for nothing," while conceding it might have been spelled 'Juwes'.

At the inquest, though, Detective Daniel Halse said it read, "The Juwes are not the men who will be blamed for nothing." Long insisted otherwise but admitted it might have read 'Juwes' for 'Jews'.

[Axler]

And in Masonic lore, the "Juwes" are known as Jublai, Jubelo and Jubelum...the assassins of the architect of Solomon's temple.

To me, From Hell (both the graphic novel and the movie version) was rather a less entertaining version of Bob Clark's film, Murder By Decree.

From Hell was basically the same plot since both were drawn from the same sources...but at least Murder By Decree featured great performances by Christopher Plummer and James Mason...in his last role.

[wordmonkey]

I just started wading through the appendix section of the collection.

Certainly did his research. But that only seems to prove that he had lots to cram in.

And like Axler says, the plot really isn't anything new (which again, I think I have to admit being a little disappointed with considering the source). And this one lacked Sherlock Holmes using a scarf as a blunt-force-trauma-inducing weapon!

See, Axler and I can agree. :D

[Axler]

I imagine we agree on far more things than not.

But, yeah...although I appreciated From Hell, I didn't find anything new there...in fact, the last scene in the movie version was essentially the same as that in Murder By Decree.

Also...wasn't there a Jack the Ripper TV movie or mini-series a decade or so ago with Michael Caine as Abberline chasing down and nearly executing William Gull?

[scarletpeaches]

I have that on video. Utter crap, the theories involved, but good for an evening in with a tube of pringles and a few beers. :D

[wordmonkey]

Also...wasn't there a Jack the Ripper TV movie or mini-series a decade or so ago with Michael Caine as Abberline chasing down and nearly executing William Gull?

And Lewis Collins, pouting in a threatening manner!

But no skull-cracking scarf.

[Axler]

I still have a great deal of fondness for the Harlan Ellison-penned episode of Cimarron Strip, where Jack relocated to Oklahoma...he made the mistake of picking up where he left off with a girl on the Comanche reservation...

...and the Comanches caught him and did a Mary Kelly on him.

http://www.customflix.com/208258

[wordmonkey]

The Babylon 5 episode with JTR was pretty interesting too.

[Axler]

Oh, yeah...forgot about that one. That was good.

My all-time favorite is Star Trek's Wolf In The Fold...the scene with the mood-elevated Ripper making giggling threats "Diediedie, kill you all, make you suffer" while a grim-faced Kirk marches him down a corridor in a fireman's carry has got to be one of the most bizarre images in TV history.

[wordmonkey]

And since we're off on a tangent, isn't there one where JTR steals HG Wells' Time Machine?

[PeeDee]

I think that yes, it dragged in some places, but was doing so for a certain type of effect that I've seen in a few books. It's the long and winding sort of novel (and I do think of From Hell as a novel more than anything else).

I think I trust Alan Moore as a writer enough that when I read something of his that seems to be sloppily flapping in the wind because he didn't know when to stop, I trust that he's telling me this for a reason. I may not get the reason, and if I do get it, I may not agree, but it has a purpose. Like Gene Wolfe, he doesn't do things on accident.

The film had Johnny Depp and Ian Holme and Robbie Coltrane in it. That was where the good bits ended.....

[Stacia Kane]

Actually that was down to Sir Charles Warren claiming he feared an uprising against the Jews.

According to Sugden, it's down to Superintendent Thomas Arnold, who originally orered it destroyed. And the implication in Moore is that it was erased because it implicated Gull. Which makes the erasure related to the politics portrayed in From Hell.

(Personally, I believe it might not have been erased so quickly if not for the pissing contest between the City and the Yard. But as that's not part of the theory in FH...)



PC Alfred Long said it read, "The Jews are the men that will not be blamed for nothing," while conceding it might have been spelled 'Juwes'.

At the inquest, though, Detective Daniel Halse said it read, "The Juwes are not the men who will be blamed for nothing." Long insisted otherwise but admitted it might have read 'Juwes' for 'Jews'.


I'm sorry, didn't I say we'll never know know exactly what it said? I thought I did...but thanks for setting me straight there.

[Inkdaub]

Oh, yeah...forgot about that one. That was good.

My all-time favorite is Star Trek's Wolf In The Fold...the scene with the mood-elevated Ripper making giggling threats "Diediedie, kill you all, make you suffer" while a grim-faced Kirk marches him down a corridor in a fireman's carry has got to be one of the most bizarre images in TV history.

Was that the episode where Jack was an entity called 'Rejeck' or some such?

[wordmonkey]

Just finished reading Appendix II.

THAT was more like the Moore I know. Even showed glimpses of the old, old, old Moore and his "DR & Quinch" days.

What I did find interesting, and again, this is just what I brought from this part, was that he seems to admit that "ripperology" is like some infectious brain disorder. When you dip in, it starts to consume you in it's own twisted, self-sustaining logic and lies.

The chaos-theory analogy seems very apt. A shape with an infinite bounding edge and a finite area. You can keep going and going and going, and the truth is maybe in there, but you'll never find it.

Maybe the truth is, as he suggests, less important than the mirror it holds up to the person/society looking on. The horrors of the acts reveal the dark-side we would rather ignore in our current world. And maybe that does loose that evil through time.

I'm gonna choose to take the Appendix II as a literary apologia. Yes, I was sucked in for a while, lost in the insanity, but look, I'm all better now. It restores my faith.

A faith which is clearly not as strong as PeeDee's! :D

[Axler]

Was that the episode where Jack was an entity called 'Rejeck' or some such?

Red Jack or Redjac, actually.

In the Star Trek comics put out by DC in the mid-80s, Kirk and the Enterprise crew ran into the thing again.

The movie about Jack clashing with HG Wells was Time After Time.

[PeeDee]

The Babylon 5 episode with JTR was pretty interesting too.

Comes the Inquisitor was a powerful episode. I loved that. Wayne Alexander is a deeply creepy actor, even when he's not playing Lorien. Neither my wife and I realized it was him until toward the very end, when he just starts talking....thirty seconds before he says "Known only...as Jack." Both my wife and I went "oh...shit."

From Hell aside, that was probably my favorite Jack the Ripper usage.

[scarletpeaches]

I'm sorry, didn't I say we'll never know know exactly what it said? I thought I did...but thanks for setting me straight there.

Um, yeah...I was just clarifying for those who might not know the theories on the wording.

[wordmonkey]

Um, yeah...I was just clarifying for those who might not know the theories on the wording.

OOOW!

CAT-FIGHT!

meeeeeeeee-OW!

Who says it's quiet and dull in "Comics and Graphic Novels"? :e2brows:

[PeeDee]

Note to wordmonkey: It is not a foodfight. In catfights and jailbreaks, you do not shout it out. You slink quietly out of the way, and run for it.

Sheesh.

[wordmonkey]

Note to wordmonkey: It is not a foodfight. In catfights and jailbreaks, you do not shout it out. You slink quietly out of the way, and run for it.

DUDE!

Cat-fight! Two babes, wrestling, clawing, get all hot and savage. Clothes being ripped asunder, underwear elastic twanging... nay, snapping!

Pit of jello!

Hot naughty bits waving here, there and everywhere!

Oh...

I forgot. Cajun, right? You probably thought meant ACTUAL cats. My bad. I type slower for you in future. :D

And I quote, like REALLY quote...

Sheesh.

[PeeDee]

****ing yankees...

[scarletpeaches]

Let the record show I was not the first person to connect Johnny Depp and the concept of a food fight.

[PeeDee]

I'd jello pit wrestle Johnny Depp.

If he'd ever lift the restraining order.

Anyway, back to Cool Alan Moore Comics....!

[wordmonkey]

Let the record show I was not the first person to connect Johnny Depp and the concept of a food fight.

You still frighten me.

[wordmonkey]

****ing yankees...

Er... I know geography isn't a big deal over here, but you live further north than I do.

And that's not even touching the fact that I'm English (which is partly why that mad Scottish bird scares me - I think all that wode seeped into the gene pool up there!).

[scarletpeaches]

You know your place, mortal! :D

[PeeDee]

Er... I know geography isn't a big deal over here, but you live further north than I do.

And that's not even touching the fact that I'm English (which is partly why that mad Scottish bird scares me - I think all that wode seeped into the gene pool up there!).

I may live in Minnesota, but I just have to close my eyes and think of Louisiana. So shaddup.

And English just means I go from "****ing yankee" to "sodding brit"

:D

[scarletpeaches]

Um, no.

British applies to three nationalities, not just English.

I think you mean, "F***ing limey."

[wordmonkey]

Ain't multi-culturalism grand!

Here we are, a haggis chomping bird, a delusional red-neck, being able to communicate with their higher and better... an English gent.

And let me just say, for the record, I don't look down on either of you because of your lowly birthplaces. It's not your faults. You just do the best you can with the slightly weaker genes you're stuck with.

I still love ya both.

Just... y'know... go around the back and your skullery door, would ya?

[Stacia Kane]

Ain't multi-culturalism grand!

Here we are, a haggis chomping bird, a delusional red-neck, being able to communicate with their higher and better... an English gent.

And let me just say, for the record, I don't look down on either of you because of your lowly birthplaces. It's not your faults. You just do the best you can with the slightly weaker genes you're stuck with.

I still love ya both.

Just... y'know... go around the back and your skullery door, would ya?

Sheesh, I leave for a few hours and I'm totally forgotten. You sure know how to make a lady feel appreciated, wordmonkey.

[wordmonkey]

Sheesh, I leave for a few hours and I'm totally forgotten. You sure know how to make a lady feel appreciated, wordmonkey.

Oh now please!

I set up the jello and scarlet for you!

Specially for you.

I wouldn't have gotten ANY pleasure out of that whole scenario.

What more can I do?

[PeeDee]

Um, no.

British applies to three nationalities, not just English.

I think you mean, "F***ing limey."

Given the wordmonkey in question, I may just settle for "absolute tit" and be done with it. :D

[Inkdaub]

Red Jack or Redjac, actually.

In the Star Trek comics put out by DC in the mid-80s, Kirk and the Enterprise crew ran into the thing again.

The movie about Jack clashing with HG Wells was Time After Time.

Right, right. Yeah I have always liked that episode as well. Red Jack makes much more sense but my memory is pretty old and had been reduced to phonetics. I never read the comics, though.

I never read From Hell but always meant to. I enjoyed the movie well enough and I love and trust Alan Moore. I don't know much about Jack the Ripper. I saw a true crime book about him written by Barbara Kingsolver and it might be worth a look.

[Axler]

In the episode, one of the characters pronounced the name "Rejec" right before she was killed...it wasn't until Spock ran it through the computer that they realized she meant to say "Red Jack".

A recent and weird entry in the Special Guest Star: Jack The Ripper sweepstakes is this novel by a friend of mine:

http://www.mackbolan.com/covers/ex/325.jpg

Jack is back, this time with help...so who you gonna call?

[PeeDee]

In the episode, one of the characters pronounced the name "Rejec" right before she was killed...it wasn't until Spock ran it through the computer that they realized she meant to say "Red Jack".


Oh, oh, oh! I remember that episode now! It was the one where Scotty was accused of killing the women that he was horning around with.

Star Trek, episode 36, season 2: Wolf in the Fold (http://www.ericweisstein.com/fun/startrek/WolfInTheFold.html)written, I did not previously realize, by the wonderful and talented Robert Bloch.

[wordmonkey]

Oh, oh, oh! I remember that episode now! It was the one where Scotty was accused of killing the women that he was horning around with.

Star Trek, episode 36, season 2: Wolf in the Fold (http://www.ericweisstein.com/fun/startrek/WolfInTheFold.html)written, I did not previously realize, by the wonderful and talented Robert Bloch.

nerd