Are Westerns history?

[Vanatru]

Is the western market dead? Most grocerybook racks I've been to lately have at most a handful to choose from, less than the sci-fi selections; where as, romance and generic name brand thrillers glom the available space.

http://www.westernwriters.org/news.htm from Nov 2006 had an interesting comment on the sales of Western books.

So, do you think the western market is dead, dying, stagnant, dormant, or just waiting for it's cycle to come back around?

I think it's just waiting for it's turn to come back around.

[Festus]

Hell NO! Westerns aren't dead, they ain't even that sick yet. Would appreciate a place on that poll for "No" instead of dormant or not yet. Dadburn whipper-snapper! :-)

A handful is better than none. I'm glad you think they'll even get more popular. But they are a helluva long ways from being dead yet.

Course, I do have a vested interest in this!

[Vanatru]

Oh well shoot..........I didn't think of No. :)

There's not a way to change the poll thingies is there?

[Cav Guy]

Western Writers of America is also an organization that has for some time been moving its support from fiction to non-fiction (this from a member who's well-published in the Western fiction field and should know). They don't really provide much in the way of communication or support for newer authors (unlike the romance, SciFi, Fantasy, and Mystery communities and authors' associations).

When you have good authors who tell good stories, the market picks up. Terry Johnston's death was a big blow to the community, and with there being few to no short story markets it's hard for new authors to make their marks.

[Vanatru]

Is there any western fiction mag out there?

[Puma]

One of the AW members who's been dormant for quite a while is very active in the Western Writers group and his own local writer's group. I haven't seen him on the forums since the Western forums showed up. I'll see if I can dig him up.

And, yes, the Western Writers Association does have a magazine (and I suspect there are some others) but you may have to buy a copy to find out what submission requirements are. The magazine is Roundup. Puma

[Lyra Jean]

Westerns can be historicals or not depending how you write them. I really liked the book "Lonesome Dove."

[Festus]

"True West" is another western magazine that appears to be very popular.

[JeanneTGC]

I voted "other"...if they're dead, I'm going to bring them back. ;)

[Festus]

Atta girl, Jeannie!!!

[Jamesaritchie]

Traditional westerns are not dead, but they are very sick. Not much of a market for them at all. But there is no such thing as a truly dead genre. Even the sickest is simply waiting for the right new writer to come along and heal it.

[AussieBilly]

For reasons I won't go into, I decided to start my fiction writing career by producing Louis L'Amour style westerns ... and sold my first one to a London publisher. Since then have sold two more and had two of the three picked up for reprint by another London publisher (large print). I dearly love having my books show up in the local library! However, I haven't been able to find any agent or publisher in the US accepting this genre ... so, as noted in the title ... go east, young man, go far east. (Except I'm in Australia, so it's go way up there)

[JeanneTGC]

Billy, very exciting news! Out of curiosity (not idle, of course :D ) did you go through an agent or directly to the publisher?

[Vanatru]

ABilly: What's the storyline you have going?

[Cav Guy]

Billy, very exciting news! Out of curiosity (not idle, of course :D ) did you go through an agent or directly to the publisher?
I'd second that question.:)

[Festus]

Congratulations on being published, AussieBilly, and welcome to our group!

[AussieBilly]

Thanks for the welcome, partner ... Pull up a chair and I'll try to explain my good fortune ...

No agent, sorry to say. I am presently searching for someone to represent my latest modern crime story ... However for the westerns, I simply went to the library and found a couple publishers and queried them. Before everyone starts thinking I'd actually done something worth congratulating me about ...
the publisher, Robert Hale Publishing Ltd, prints books for direct sale to libraries in the Commonwealth ... the UK, Australia, Canada, etc. The books never get to a book store, altho I believe you can buy one through Amazon.com. Hale pays a one time royalty, prints 1,000 copies and that's it. If the printed book is picked up by another publisher, large print, then there's another royalty check. Two of mine are coming out in large print later this year. Does that mean I will then be able to brag about having five books published?

What I really want is to write something and have it go to the book stores. Somehow that is important to me in my quest to become an author.

Now, as far as the storyline ... two are with the same hero ... in the style of that old TV hero, Paladin. Lending a helping hand as he travels here and there in the west sometime after the end of the Civil War.
The third is a young man on his way south through central Oregon to see what the California gold rush is all about ... but meets a damsel in distress. Ah, but those were the good old days ... Now I gotta hang out on street corners to find DinD's

Did I answer everyone?
As I say in my queries ... thanks for the interest ...
billy

[Scribhneoir]

So, do you think the western market is dead, dying, stagnant, dormant, or just waiting for it's cycle to come back around?


I once asked Frank Price, who produced numerous TV westerns, including The Virginian, why he thought westerns had died and had yet to be revived, unlike other genres.

His answer: "I don't know. There are potential answers. One of which someone else mentioned to me, could have been Roy [Huggins], that is that the minute somebody in a space suit stepped off onto the moon, that science fiction became real. Westerns were at their most popular when cowboys were more real, we were closer to that time. As we got further and further away from that time, there was more of an unreality to somebody riding around on a horse than going around in a space suit. Science fiction seems to have filled the gap. But westerns once ruled. So, that's part of it. What do people believe? And science fiction is now more credible than the West."

So, what do you guys think? Is the western genre suffering because science fiction is more credible to today's readers, at least those too young to have experienced a flourishing western genre? I'd like to think westerns will have a revival in popularity, especially since SF leaves me cold, but I think Frank has a point. I also think it's telling that AussieBilly's books were published in the UK, not the US. (btw, congratulations AussieBilly!)

It will take an extraordinary writer to revive the fortunes of the western. Let's hope that person comes along before US publishers give up on the genre all together.

[Cav Guy]

That may be part of it, but then how do you explain the popularity of rodeo and country music?;)

I tend to think the answer's a bit more complex than that. SciFi has a strong network behind it (in terms of authors' associations, writing groups, etc.). Westerns really do not (and I don't want to go into WWA again...they don't do near as much as the other genre associations). There's also a number of "training" markets for SciFi in terms of magazines, fan fiction, and so on. No such thing for Westerns.

The popularity of things like the SASS and other groups (reinactors and otherwise) shows that there's interest in the West. So does the NF market. I think Western authors are (by their natures) fairly solitary types, which does not bode well for mentor-type relationships. Finally, you have the growth of the "Adult Western" in the 1980s and the lack of a strong, prolific successor to L'Amour. Many factors, all leading up to what we see today.

[Jamesaritchie]

Science fiction isn't all that popular, either. It's certain more popular than traditional westerns, but even SF has only about a 3% market share.

My own opinion is that most readers simply want bigger, better-written, more in depth stories these days. Larry McMurtry type westerns, Cormac McCarthy type westerns, etc. They want new and different. Honestly, Louis L'Amour did about all there was to do with traditional westerns, and the three or four writers out there who still write and sell such westerns satisfy reader need nicely.

The western is not at all dead, or even terribly sick. The only western that's really in serious trouble is same old, same old traditional westerns of the kind Louis L'Amour wrote. And why shouldn't they be? There comes a point where there's simply nothing left to say unless you change style and story type, and I think that time came some time back for the Louis L'Amour type western.

Today's readers, as a whole, have too much fiction to choose from, and have more sophisticated taste than readers did thirty years ago.

[Vanatru]

Interesting what you two (Cav Guy & Scrib) have said.

I was moaning and groaning to myself the lack of quality westerns on the market (quality by my standards) and I made a snarky comment that there are more recent civil war novels than westerns.

That gave me a pause. Are there more CW books due to a genuine interest in 'em, or because there's a lack of westerns and many CW fans I've met are also westerns fans. So, IMO, they're flocking to the new market and propagating it.............making westerns slide back a bit further.

Does that make sense?

[Vanatru]

My own opinion is that most readers simply want bigger, better-written, more in depth stories these days. Larry McMurtry type westerns, Cormac McCarthy type westerns, etc. They want new and different. Honestly, Louis L'Amour did about all there was to do with traditional westerns, and the three or four writers out there who still write and sell such westerns satisfy reader need nicely.


Strongly agree with that. That's what I find annoying is the lack of anything new or fresh, IMO.

I love Will Henry's material (Custer, Black Apache, I-Tom Horn), Terry Johnston, and Steve Frazee (High Chapparal, Zoro, Ghost Mine), along with Dan Cushman (The Adventures of Comanche John, The Pecos Kid).

These guys have written about things that are still in the main, but not over written about..........like cattle drives, gamblers, sheriffs, etc).

[Jamesaritchie]

Strongly agree with that. That's what I find annoying is the lack of anything new or fresh, IMO.

I love Will Henry's material (Custer, Black Apache, I-Tom Horn), Terry Johnston, and Steve Frazee (High Chapparal, Zoro, Ghost Mine), along with Dan Cushman (The Adventures of Comanche John, The Pecos Kid).

These guys have written about things that are still in the main, but not over written about..........like cattle drives, gamblers, sheriffs, etc).

I think we see it the same way, and with the same writers.

[AussieBilly]

My humble opinion rides on the same pony that Jamesaritchie offers about the perceived death of the western genre. Here in Australia, as far as I can tell, western novels are popular with older male readers ... I don't know of too many women who like and read western (okay, I'm generalizing ... I know there are some, somewhere) ... so right away half the population of readers are lost to western writers.
But here's something to add to the quest for an answer ... I'm told that novels of the American west are big in Germany, somewhat popular in France and are growing in popularity in China. So I've been told. Now what does that tell you?
Meanwhile, I'll keep putting out my Louis L'Amour style stories and hope someday to reach the Will Henry level ... at least as long as that London publisher will print them.

[Scribhneoir]

I don't know of too many women who like and read western (okay, I'm generalizing ... I know there are some, somewhere) ...

Right here, for a start. I'm female. :D And I know a number of women who like and read westerns -- both fiction and non-fiction.

[Scribhneoir]

Science fiction isn't all that popular, either. It's certain more popular than traditional westerns, but even SF has only about a 3% market share.

One caveat about Frank Price's opinion -- the question was asked in the context of television programs, so the 3% market share of SF doesn't quite apply. I felt it was still appropriate to share here, though, given that folks who watch westerns on TV probably enjoy reading western books, too.

Today's readers, as a whole, have too much fiction to choose from, and have more sophisticated taste than readers did thirty years ago.

But today's writers surely share that more sophisticated taste, so why have westerns dwindled instead of growing into a more complex form and maintaining their popularity? Mysteries, for instance, have gained sophistication over the decades and developed a number of niches to appeal to all tastes. Why hasn't the western done the same?

[JeanneTGC]

But today's writers surely share that more sophisticated taste, so why have westerns dwindled instead of growing into a more complex form and maintaining their popularity? Mysteries, for instance, have gained sophistication over the decades and developed a number of niches to appeal to all tastes. Why hasn't the western done the same?
One reason might be the segmentation of the bookstore, if you will. I know that when I've spoken to publishers about my novel set in the Old West, they are quick to confirm that, in their opinion, it's NOT a Western, because I'm not following a set "Western formula" (and, yes, I've had more than one industry professional say that and explain the formula to me).

They've had to explain it to me because I thought -- since my story is set in the Old West, incorporates real people from history, centers around outlaws and lawmen, has gunfights, knife fights, stampedes, etc. -- that it was a Western. Not so, apparently.

I'm querying it as Historical Fiction. But when I look at my bookshelves, I still can't fully understand why it's "not" a Western.

[AussieBilly]

I'm female. And I know a number of women who like and read westerns --

I know, I know ... but looking at the numbers, you and that number of women are still, I aver, in the minority when it comes to readers of westerns, both fiction and the real deal. That's not putting down you female western people ... I love 'everyone who picks up a western ... but -- well, I guess I stand by what I said.
Meanwhile, the sun is out on the beach this day before Easter so it's gone I am ...

[Vanatru]

They've had to explain it to me because I thought -- since my story is set in the Old West, incorporates real people from history, centers around outlaws and lawmen, has gunfights, knife fights, stampedes, etc. -- that it was a Western. Not so, apparently.

Do they list this formula? I'd like to see what their criteria is.

-Bill

[Vanatru]

Right here, for a start. I'm female. :D And I know a number of women who like and read westerns -- both fiction and non-fiction.

Gotta love the ladies in jeans. :)

Suprisingly, to me, we have several Canadian women here who really like westerns. I gave 'em all my Richard Wyler (Incident at Butler's Station, Savage Journey) books and they loved 'em.

Maybe that should be a new thread; The Westerns Ladies Love

[Jamesaritchie]

But today's writers surely share that more sophisticated taste, so why have westerns dwindled instead of growing into a more complex form and maintaining their popularity? Mysteries, for instance, have gained sophistication over the decades and developed a number of niches to appeal to all tastes. Why hasn't the western done the same?

I think the writers who really do share this sophisticated taste are doing very well. They simply are not writing "traditional" westerns set in the 1860-1890 era.

I also think there is an fair readership for "traditional" westerns, but this readership is being covered nicely by existing westerns by L'Amour, Will Henry, Zane Grey, etc., and by the few western writers out there actually publishing today.

Here's the trouble in comparing traditional westerns with mysteries. Mysteries are constantly updated to reflect the times we live in. The characters are present day people, and behave as present day people, use present day technology, have present day problems, etc. The settings, too, are present day. So readers can far more easily relate to these mysteries, whatever the particular niche the mystery falls under.

By default, traditional westerns not only take place in the distant past, the scope, location, and story types are almost always going to be ones readers have either already seen, or have great trouble relating to.

This country is far more "citified" than it was just two or three decades ago. The vast majority of people live in cities, and even country folk are, in large part, living the lifestyle of city dwellers. The internet, the cell phone, and cable TV have made this happen.

I firmly believe that a western writer who wishes to succeed today must do one of two things. 1. Write westerns that modern readers can relate to in some way by changing the setting, the time period, or, as McMurtry did, the scope of the story. 2. Being good enough, and fortunate enough, to fill one of the very few slots open to writers of traditional westerns. And even here you won't make much money on a per novel basis.

Mysteries have moved on from what they were decades ago, romance novels have moved on from what they were decades ago, and westerns need to do the same.

[Cav Guy]

One reason might be the segmentation of the bookstore, if you will. I know that when I've spoken to publishers about my novel set in the Old West, they are quick to confirm that, in their opinion, it's NOT a Western, because I'm not following a set "Western formula" (and, yes, I've had more than one industry professional say that and explain the formula to me).

They've had to explain it to me because I thought -- since my story is set in the Old West, incorporates real people from history, centers around outlaws and lawmen, has gunfights, knife fights, stampedes, etc. -- that it was a Western. Not so, apparently.

I'm querying it as Historical Fiction. But when I look at my bookshelves, I still can't fully understand why it's "not" a Western.
Personally I think a lot of it's semi-intellectual snobbery on the part of publishing. There was a time when "Historical Fiction" meant Romance, and no one wanted to be put in that classification. Good Westerns have always been historical. L'Amour for all his faults used many historical backdrops and events in his stories.

I've mentioned before the lack of open peer networking for Western authors, and that combined with the rise of the pen name "Adult Westerns" (Longarm and so on) crippled the entry of fresh Western authors at a time when they were really needed. That and, of course, the trend Jeanne mentioned of shoving good authors into Historical or some other area because they "didn't fit the Western profile," which seems to become more low-brow by the day while the movie Western (Unforgiven is perhaps the best example) has been raising the bar as far as content and what people expect from a Western.

[Cav Guy]

I think the writers who really do share this sophisticated taste are doing very well. They simply are not writing "traditional" westerns set in the 1860-1890 era.

I also think there is an fair readership for "traditional" westerns, but this readership is being covered nicely by existing westerns by L'Amour, Will Henry, Zane Grey, etc., and by the few western writers out there actually publishing today.

Here's the trouble in comparing traditional westerns with mysteries. Mysteries are constantly updated to reflect the times we live in. The characters are present day people, and behave as present day people, use present day technology, have present day problems, etc. The settings, too, are present day. So readers can far more easily relate to these mysteries, whatever the particular niche the mystery falls under.

By default, traditional westerns not only take place in the distant past, the scope, location, and story types are almost always going to be ones readers have either already seen, or have great trouble relating to.

This country is far more "citified" than it was just two or three decades ago. The vast majority of people live in cities, and even country folk are, in large part, living the lifestyle of city dwellers. The internet, the cell phone, and cable TV have made this happen.

I firmly believe that a western writer who wishes to succeed today must do one of two things. 1. Write westerns that modern readers can relate to in some way by changing the setting, the time period, or, as McMurtry did, the scope of the story. 2. Being good enough, and fortunate enough, to fill one of the very few slots open to writers of traditional westerns. And even here you won't make much money on a per novel basis.

Mysteries have moved on from what they were decades ago, romance novels have moved on from what they were decades ago, and westerns need to do the same.
I disagree, respectfully but firmly, with this idea. If it were so, you wouldn't see the various mountain man series that Wheeler and others have been writing successfully.

Part of the appeal of the Western (historical or traditional) is the escapist element in it. We've been comparing them to SciFi, but perhaps another good analogy would be the fantasy novel. In no small way the Western is the mythology of the United States. The appeal of the myth goes in cycles, but it is still there. And it's also the myth that many other countries think of when they think of the United States (look at Sergio Leone for one).

Sure, the plot structure and elements will evolve, as will the vision of main characters and the historical segments covered. But the appeal of Shane, the Man with No Name, Will Muny, Jose Wales, and others will always be there. The myth of the lone lawman, gunman, or trapper carving his own place in an expanding realm will always appeal to people.

I've heard the urbanization argument before, but I don't completely buy into it. It has an impact, to be sure, but at the same time it can also create a longing for that escape. I would tend to point more at the increasing ignorance of most Americans of their own history as a contributing factor.

[Scribhneoir]

I've heard the urbanization argument before, but I don't completely buy into it. It has an impact, to be sure, but at the same time it can also create a longing for that escape. I would tend to point more at the increasing ignorance of most Americans of their own history as a contributing factor.

I don't think it's necessarily increasing ignorance of American history so much as a lack of exposure to western stories. My local Borders has two aisles of SF/Fantasy and just three shelves of westerns (and those are mostly Louis L'amour). There's little to no cross-fertilization with pop culture these days, either.

When I was a kid, I'd watch reruns of western TV shows after school. That led me to seek out western novels and that led to an interest in the real history of the Old West. Today's kids have to look long and hard to find westerns on TV, outside of the Encore Westerns Channel. Western films hit the theaters maybe once every few years. Sadly, westerns just aren't part of the air we breathe anymore.

[Jamesaritchie]

I disagree, respectfully but firmly, with this idea. If it were so, you wouldn't see the various mountain man series that Wheeler and others have been writing successfully.

Part of the appeal of the Western (historical or traditional) is the escapist element in it. We've been comparing them to SciFi, but perhaps another good analogy would be the fantasy novel. In no small way the Western is the mythology of the United States. The appeal of the myth goes in cycles, but it is still there. And it's also the myth that many other countries think of when they think of the United States (look at Sergio Leone for one).

Sure, the plot structure and elements will evolve, as will the vision of main characters and the historical segments covered. But the appeal of Shane, the Man with No Name, Will Muny, Jose Wales, and others will always be there. The myth of the lone lawman, gunman, or trapper carving his own place in an expanding realm will always appeal to people.

I've heard the urbanization argument before, but I don't completely buy into it. It has an impact, to be sure, but at the same time it can also create a longing for that escape. I would tend to point more at the increasing ignorance of most Americans of their own history as a contributing factor.

I'd hardly call such mountain men books proof of anything, except that a couple of writers can still sell such books. How many such series are there? And mountain man books are not usually counted as traditional westerns, at least by publishers. I said some writers will still fill a few spaces, but sure not many, and most of them do not sell very well at all when compared to novels in other genres.

Nor are the books you list the standard fare of traditional westerns. These are all writers who stepped outside the bounds and did something different, or writers who are writing historical, not traditional westerns..

There will always be a market for escapist novels, but there are many types of escapist novels, every genre has more than its fair share of escapist novels, and I just do not see huge numbers of readers drawn to traditional westerns as escape reading. And most of those who are drawn to such can more than fill their reading needs with already written and published novels.

Yes, the appeal will always be there, but the question is one of numbers, and the more urbanized we become, and the further in time we move from the old west, the less I believe this appeal will be, and the lower the numbers, at least for traditional westerns. We can't even say the old west happened in the last century now.

Yes, the appeal will always be there for some people. but not, I think, for the masses as was once the case. Cycles or not, there comes a point for any type novel, and for any myth, when same old, same old will no longer fare well in the marketplace.

Time moves on, and the mythos moves right along with it. I don't think the traditional western will ever die, but I don't think there's a chance in ten million that the traditional western will ever again be nearly as popular as it once was.

Nor do I think it matters. The myth of the lone lawman, gunman, or trapper carving his own place in an expanding realm is the same, whether it's set in the hold west, or set on a far future science fiction world, a magic-filled fantasy world, or in a hard-boiled private eye world.

The myth, the spirit, the rugged individualism, the bravery, is in the man, not in the time period or setting where he lived.

But more and more, the majority of readers are going to find this mythos in genres outside of traditional westerns.

Nor do I believe good fiction is ever 100% escapist. I sure never read westerns to escape, and I've always hated writers who didn't have something to say above and beyond escapism. I think one of the things wrong with so much current western fiction is that the writers only think about escapism. Escapism is fine, but the writer had darned well better tell a story, and fill it with characters, that the majority of readers can somehow relate to and emulate.

Time moves on, and we either move on with it, or we get left behind.

[Vanatru]

The myth, the spirit, the rugged individualism, the bravery, is in the man, not in the time period or setting where he lived.

But more and more, the majority of readers are going to find this mythos in genres outside of traditional westerns.



Ala...........Serenity

[AussieBilly]

Well, I guess we all agree on one thing ... or was that two things? Three?
Anyhow, the western isn't dead ... just lying back pulling the light sabers outa our backs.

With all this support for the genre, will someone take my hand and lead me to agents who will take on a western novel? ... something rarely found in my searches. How about publishers looking for western stories?

Yeah, we all love our westerns and decry their decline ... but while the other types of books are being published by the mega-thousands, where are the westerns? Check out your closest Barnes & Noble ... small shelf space to Roy and Gene's world.

But I'll keep writing them long as my publisher will keep taking them ... an oddity, I believe (him, not me!)

[JeanneTGC]

1018 Press is supporting short form Westerns. Exciting stuff, really -- they're dedicated to it and just closed their fourth anthology (I think they publish quarterly).

http://www.1018press.com/

[dub]

Hope y'all don't mind an oddball interloper. I have written a little western fiction - essays, and have started a stereotypical novel, for no other reason than I was enjoying it. Recently, I entered a "cowboy story" in a Christian writer's contest - the prompt was "Historical."

The American West - The Cowboy era, genrally accepted to be 1820-1890 (Saffel. Cowboy Poetry), was a very special and unique part of U.S. history. I think, we as writers, need to find a way to bring that time into the forefront of the reading public. Lonesome Dove was wonderful, but what epic have we had since? Broke Back Mountain? Shessssh...

Good discussion, will check back later.

dub

[JeanneTGC]

Lonesome Dove was wonderful, but what epic have we had since?
Working on it, working on it.

I just got a rejection -- a personal one! -- insinuating that my novel set in the Old West would be better with a large agency (at least, that's how I'm choosing to interpret it, and no one's allowed to rob me of that illusion).

Really, it'll just take those of us who are still writing epics set in the West to "hit" and then, like every other supposedly dead genre, it'll be back.

If the "styles" from the '70s could come back, I believe that ANYthing can come back.

[Cav Guy]

I've got one or two in the works as well, both focusing on the Frontier Army. They aren't ready to submit yet, but I'm kinda aiming for the readers who used to buy Terry Johnston's Plainsman series. I don't write like him, but his sales do demonstrate that there are folks out there who like to read stuff set during this period and with this kind of focus. It's not all I do from that period (obviously), but I'm trying to increase my chances by covering a couple of varieties of Western.

[frimble3]

'Westerns' is not my thing, really, but I've noticed that the mystery magazines, specifically "Alfred Hitchcock's" and probably 'Ellery Queen', have run quite a few Western-setting mysteries in the last little while.I've enjoyed them, but they haven't inspired me to go looking for Western books. I have to say, when I think 'Western' I think 'tall, silent stranger comes in and cleans up town'. And all the series titles mentioned here make me suspect that it's all just more of the same. I don't know what it would take to get me to read Westerns, but I haven't seen it yet.

[JeanneTGC]

'Westerns' is not my thing, really, but I've noticed that the mystery magazines, specifically "Alfred Hitchcock's" and probably 'Ellery Queen', have run quite a few Western-setting mysteries in the last little while.I've enjoyed them, but they haven't inspired me to go looking for Western books. I have to say, when I think 'Western' I think 'tall, silent stranger comes in and cleans up town'. And all the series titles mentioned here make me suspect that it's all just more of the same. I don't know what it would take to get me to read Westerns, but I haven't seen it yet.
Have you read anything by McMurtry? Just curious, really. :)

[Vanatru]

Have you read anything by McMurtry? Just curious, really. :)

Who's McMurty? Can you hum a tune or two of his work.

:)

He's not that hack writer from New York City is he?

[JeanneTGC]

Who's McMurty? Can you hum a tune or two of his work.

:)

He's not that hack writer from New York City is he?
New Yawk CITY?!?!

Quick, where's the picante sauce? :ROFL:

[seven41]

I think westerns peaked in the twentieth century. I doubt that they will ever come back to what they were during the 50's, 60's and 70's of the last century. They aren't dead, but they are not popular either. I think that growing up when I did, with all the western movies and heroes, made them more popular during that period. When I was a kid, I used to go to the movies every Saturday for the double feature and one was always a western with heroes like Roy Rogers, Gene Autry, Johnny Mack Brown, Alan Rocky Lane, Rex Allen, Shamrock Ellison, Hopalong Cassidy, Lash Larue, Whip Wilson, The Durango Kid, The Cisco Kid, Eddie Dean, and of course, John Wayne. Kids today aren't seeing all those heroes on horses, so their interests are not going to be influenced by all the good guys shooting it out with the bad guys while riding horses.

[sidekick]

Cav Guy
I was glad to see you mention rodeos. It has been a part of my life fer more than fifty years. I have finished my memiors and am seeking an agent now. the title of my book will be Bionic Bull Rider, which has to do with me making medical history due to a bull riding accident. The Orlando Sentinnel wrote an articl on me and it was titled bionic bull rider. this is where I got the idea for the title of my book. It begins when I was a nine year old boy growing up in Michigan and becoming a pro rodeo cowboy. Anyways I am always glad when someone mentions rodeo.

Barry

[JeanneTGC]

Cav Guy
I was glad to see you mention rodeos. It has been a part of my life fer more than fifty years. I have finished my memiors and am seeking an agent now. the title of my book will be Bionic Bull Rider, which has to do with me making medical history due to a bull riding accident. The Orlando Sentinnel wrote an articl on me and it was titled bionic bull rider. this is where I got the idea for the title of my book. It begins when I was a nine year old boy growing up in Michigan and becoming a pro rodeo cowboy. Anyways I am always glad when someone mentions rodeo.

Barry
Welcome, sidekick. Totally intriguing title -- can't wait to read the book!

[johnnysannie]

I disagree, respectfully but firmly\


I've heard the urbanization argument before, but I don't completely buy into it. It has an impact, to be sure, but at the same time it can also create a longing for that escape. I would tend to point more at the increasing ignorance of most Americans of their own history as a contributing factor.

Ignorance of American history is indeed a likely factor - I am appalled at how little the average citizen knows about history (and often not as distant as the days of the Old West) but I agree with James on urbanization.

I lived in the country - after marrying a country boy - for twelve years and this year moved back into town. Living in the country - even though our home was literally in the woods, wooded all around and not open for cultivation - was not so very different. Television and of course the world wide web brought the world to my doorstep, a far cry from the days not so long ago when living in a rural area meant you were very isolated.

And, piggybacked onto ignorance about history is the fact that so many modern folks today have no idea how to do things like build a fire from nothing, dress game (or even a chicken) and other now vintage things. They have not done it; they have not even seen it done and have no interest in it.

Add to that the growing anti-gun climate and you can see why traditional Westerns are not as popular as they once were. When you have a number of folks very opposed to any type of firearms, they are not likely to read about a hero blazing away with his six guns!

[Unique]

Howdy. I'm a girl and I like Westerns. (That's even my NaNo story this year - YAY!) Some thoughts from the peanut gallery ...

Finally, you have the growth of the "Adult Western" in the 1980s and the lack of a strong, prolific successor to L'Amour. Many factors, all leading up to what we see today.

I ran into one of those one time - I never slammed a book shut so fast in my life! If I wanted to read that, I'd pick up a Romance. just sayin'. It put me off Westerns for quite a while because I didn't want to run into it again.

I'm not saying it's not right to write - but warning labels would be nice. That's not why I read Westerns and for me, it detracts from the book. Believe me when I tell you that I'm not a prude. It's just that to me sex is not a spectator sport. ahem.




That gave me a pause. Are there more CW books due to a genuine interest in 'em, or because there's a lack of westerns and many CW fans I've met are also westerns fans. So, IMO, they're flocking to the new market and propagating it.............making westerns slide back a bit further.

Does that make sense?

I've notice that myself. There are a lot of Civil War buffs out there. My neighbor is one and he doesn't even read! But he is fascinated with the era and the conflict itself.

Personally, I'm not quite so fond of it. I've read a few and some I even liked but they don't call to me for some reason.

Right here, for a start. I'm female. :D And I know a number of women who like and read westerns -- both fiction and non-fiction.

YAY! I'm not all by myself out here!




But today's writers surely share that more sophisticated taste, so why have westerns dwindled instead of growing into a more complex form and maintaining their popularity? Mysteries, for instance, have gained sophistication over the decades and developed a number of niches to appeal to all tastes. Why hasn't the western done the same?

I have to agree with some of James' comments. Westerns have to have some authenticity or people won't buy it - the book, the story, the premise.

Mysteries and thrillers, all writing, really, borrow from real life so if you're trying to be authentically Western you only have a narrow range to draw from for your material. Things were how they were and it can't evolve because that period in history is over.

In my mind, that means the story either has to be a great story - different somehow - or - it has to be seriously character driven. The characters not only have to leap off the page in 3D, your reader has to identify with the character so very strongly. They want to be that character or ... well. anyway.




Part of the appeal of the Western (historical or traditional) is the escapist element in it.

I have to agree with you on that. Absolutely. When I was going through a particularly difficult time in my life, my Louis L'Amour collection saved my sanity. I read his books over and over and over. Some of them I've read five and six times.

<shrug> Maybe because the good guy always wins in the end. I'm not sure really but I always felt better while reading them

I've heard the urbanization argument before, but I don't completely buy into it. It has an impact, to be sure, but at the same time it can also create a longing for that escape. I would tend to point more at the increasing ignorance of most Americans of their own history as a contributing factor.

Yes and No and one other thing. Those times are over and if you wish you lived in those times it's possible reading about them make you feel worse because they will never exist for you. We've lost something that (probably) won't be coming back. YMMV.

Human beings tend to romanticize history. We remember the good things and forget about the really bad things.

I suppose I could get really philosophical and talk about how there are no battles for men to fight and how are they going to prove to themselves that they are men without those battles but I won't.

:D

[JeanneTGC]

Per the pundits, there are only 3 individual storylines that exist, and everything else is an offshoot of these.

1. Boy meets girl
2. Good versus evil
3. Man against nature

I think Westerns, like every other genre, can work for all three of these. I still maintain that all it will take is the right book at the right time, possibly supported by the right movies, TV movies and television shows, and the Western will be back.

The onus is really on all of us who write books set in the Old West -- we need to write the stories that remind people of why this was a great and fascinating time period.

[JeanneTGC]

No, they're not.

My agent sold 4 Westerns -- 2 for an established author, 2 for a new author -- while she was on the road to the WWA conference this year.

It's not dead, and there ARE houses buying. I sat with the proof last month. ;)

BTW, there's a huge interest in Western non-fiction, too.

There are only a few agents and houses dealing with it, BUT they ARE dealing and looking for new talent. So keep on writing, editing, polishing and revising, because the door is not closed.

[Aragon]

1018 Press is supporting short form Westerns. Exciting stuff, really -- they're dedicated to it and just closed their fourth anthology (I think they publish quarterly).

http://www.1018press.com/


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