screenplay queries - how much is too much?

[tomvolz]

I'm batting around ideas for the query letter. The main character's identity is not revealed until near the end. Should I keep his name out of the query, or should I reveal it? My fear is that I'll ruin one of the major twists of the storyline. In my query for the novel, I came right out and said who it was. I still want to hold it back. But I understand what I need overrides what I want. Can I, in the query, have a clearly defined main character without saying who he is?

Also, this is based on a novel I wrote. I haven't found representation for it yet. Should I simply say something like, "...based off my novel," or should I just leave that out?

Thanks,
Tom

[Joe Calabrese]

Without knowing the details, I can't comment on what to reveal in your query, but regardless it needs to give what the story is about with the conflict and goal for your hero, and if that means you have to spill the beans to get those points across, then so be it.

As for whether or not to mention the novel, sure, put it in. It shows that a) they have a novel to cross promote it already and b) shows you are passionate and c) you give the impression of being prolific in writing.

[dpaterso]

But your main character does have an identity for most of the story, yes? And when the twist comes, he reveals his true identity? Kinda like Zorro? :) Can't you write that kind of phrasing into the query? "But then the shocking twist is revealed: Ed is really Mike, Daphne's insane brother, presumed lost at sea ten years ago!"

I've seen the view stated that unless a script is adapted from a successful published novel that may attract a fan base eager to see the movie, then it's not worth mentioning the novel. I'm just saying.

-Derek

[tomvolz]

I refer to him as John Doe for action and dialogue, but no one calls him by name until lead-in for the last big action sequence.

[Maryn]

Mentioning a novel that hasn't been published suggests to me that maybe it's not good enough to be published, whether that's true or not. It's possible that agents and prodcos might get the same impression.

It seems more okay to say something about the story taking the form of a novel until you realized it would make a better screenplay.

My understanding is that you never withhold endings, twists, or any other substantive plot element from an agent or prodco query letter. They need to know you've got a decent denouement, for one thing. For another, it's not nice--or professional--to tease agents by keeping the ending from them. They don't want to have to rise to your bait. Show 'em you've got the goods.

Maryn, who finds the query harder than the work itself

[Joe Calabrese]

I'm not saying that you should write:

I originally wrote (insert title here) as a novel which I have been shopping around for a year with no success.

But I would put in a query letter:

I am also in the process of completing a novelization of (insert title here), to generate interest in this great story in various markets.

No one will ever know which was written first, so I would mention it in a positive way. make it sound like you got a package.


I am currently turning one of my scripts into a comic book and I have gotten more read requests from mentioning that then I ever did before doing the comic. Showing a few sample pages doesn't hurt either.

And I agree with Maryn.

Producers or agents do not want to read your script to find out the ending, they want to know the ending so they can decide whether or not to read it. Concept rules in a query.

[tomvolz]

Thanks for the replies. I'll get to work on it.

Tom

[billythrilly7th]

I've often struggled with this very question.

And I've always leaned in the direction of NOT revealing the surprise.

I think you should lead them up to that moment and make them want to know that something amazing or mind blowing will happen and that they can find out what that is if they read the screenplay.

Telling them the surprise ruins it IMO.

ANd they can go "Oh, that's the big surprise?" and it all falls flat.

"And it turns out that HE is Keyser Soze!!!"

Zzzzzzzzzz

in a query.

IMO.

[Joe Calabrese]

Too much is played on the surprise here, but what is important is to tell the story in a query letter in a complete way.

You are selling a story, not a hook or a gimick or a surprise. That is unless the surprise is the story.

For example.

Forgive the sucky loglines, but I don't have time to make them kick ass, but you get the point.

A hero with amnesia and at the end discovers who he really is, is really about a journey of discovery, not necessarily what the answer is at the end and some times finds no answer. The surprise in this case can be the gravy and not the meat.

But on the other foot, a script that totally relies on the surprise, needs to be complete in a query.

The Sixth Sense, is about a jaded, down and out psychologist who after spending time with a boy who can see dead people, realizes that he is dead himself."

The surprise is the story because the story is riddled with clues to that end.

So if you are writing a sixth sense where everything hinges on the end surprise, then by all means put it in the query.

If it doesn't, then don't include it.

But in both cases, your query must be complete, the story in general and not necessarily the elements within unless it demands it.

[billythrilly7th]

The Sixth Sense, is about a jaded, down and out psychologist who after spending time with a boy who can see dead people, realizes that he is dead himself."

The surprise is the story because the story is riddled with clues to that end.

So if you are writing a sixth sense where everything hinges on the end surprise, then by all means put it in the query.

And I don't think you should include the SiIxth Sense surprise in the query.

It takes everything away from reading the screenplay just as it takes everything away from seeing the movie.

I'd rather have less people read the screenplay because I only talked about in the query about a psychologist whose patient is a boy who talks to dead people and have them BLOWN AWAY after reading it than having more people read it who already know what the surprise is and not love it as much.

I think you can get plenty of people to read the screenplay based just on the "boy talking to dead people" idea.

But....

:Shrug:

Just my opinion.

[Bravo]

The main character's identity is not revealed until near the end.

what the??

[Bravo]

please dont pitch it like that.

but here's a great example of a query - something like this might work if your script is very high concept.

it's not a query for everyone:

http://messageboard.donedealpro.com/boards/showpost.php?p=220078&postcount=10

[Joe Calabrese]

Let it be known that I am an honest person who will always admit when I am wrong.

Although I think you should tell your surprise ending if it is "your story," using Sixth Sense was not a good example.

I just got off the phone with his assistant over at Blinding Edge Pictures (I call people for stupid reasons all the time), who assured me that when M. Night pitched the script, he did not reveal the surprise ending.

There. I was wrong to use that film as an example. I said it.

[billythrilly7th]

Let it be known that I am an honest person who will always admit when I am wrong.

Although I think you should tell your surprise ending if it is "your story," using Sixth Sense was not a good example.

I just got off the phone with his assistant over at Blinding Edge Pictures (I call people for stupid reasons all the time), who assured me that when M. Night pitched the script, he did not reveal the surprise ending.

There. I was wrong to use that film as an example. I said it.

If you're wrong that must mean I'm right?

Did it happen?

Has my day finally come?!

I'm right about something!!

Ohhhhh...thank god.

I've waited years.
:)

[Joe Calabrese]

Go throw a party dude.

She was real nice about it. I explained the debate and she set me straight. M. Night didn't do it.

[dpaterso]

Here's an interesting quote attributed to M. Night Shyamalan that I picked up from somewhere (I can't find the source, dammit):

"It wasn't until about the fifth draft that I really began to figure it out. It was then that I realized he's dead. It took me five more drafts to execute it right."

If that is an actual quote, I wonder if he figured it out before or after he made the pitch?

Are you both right? (Not that I'd wish to interfere with Billy's moment of glory.)

Edit: it appears in a Wordplay column:
link removed via request from other site's Webmaster.
-Derek

[billythrilly7th]

Go throw a party dude.

Nah. Even the sun shines on a butcher ass once in awhile when he's trying to find the t-bone. But I'd rather take his word for it.

[billythrilly7th]

Are you both right? (Not that I'd wish to interfere with Billy's moment of glory.)

Nah.

Just because it worked out with M.Night doesn't mean it's necessarily the right way to go anyway.

I just think the big surprise should be left to the reader and if the only thing you have going in the script is the big surprise which makes you unable to get people to read it without saying what it is, you probably have problems with the script anyway.

IMO

[tomvolz]

Just to clarify, the main character, a mysterous hitman, is refered to as John Doe for dialogue and action purposes. No one speaks his name until the final action scene. But there is a second twist to his identity - even when it is revealed, he turns out to be quite different than what everyone has come to believe he is. There are tons of clues leading up to it, especially in the book.

Sorry for the confusion (and this probably didn't help to clear any of it up).

Tom

[Bravo]

this sounds like a mess right now.

let's see the logline.

[dpaterso]

Bravo, please! Give the nice new member the benefit of the doubt, until proven guilty. :)

Tho' without having seen the logline or anything else, I must say that "John Doe" sounds kinda dull. For a mysterious hitman, that is.

Not to mention the fact that the name has been used in other movies... and mysterious hitmen are reckoned to be super-clichéd. I'm just saying.

-Derek

[billythrilly7th]

Because of this thread, I had a dream last night with a surprise ending. True story.

I actually went "Wow" in my dream and said, "I think that's a movie" and that I'd better remember it when I woke up.

Then I woke up, did remember and thought "Eh. Maybe."

And now I think it's pretty weak. It might make a good half hour Twilight ZOne maybe. Not feature worthy. But it was still quite a little twist. I'm quite proud of the whatever that came up with it.

The subconscious mind and dreaming.

weird.wild.stuff

[scarletpeaches]

...Should I simply say something like, "...based off my novel," or should I just leave that out?...

Never, never say something is based 'off' something else.

[Joe Calabrese]

Never, never say something is based 'off' something else.

To play the role of my old friend scripter1 who hates the word never. I thought I would beat her to the punch...

So I should never write...

"Based on the novel, The Davinci Code, to which I own the rights?"


:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[tomvolz]

Here's the novel query. It gives him away in the second sentence and exposes the sequence of twists.


He was supposed to have a slow week—a dead week. For a "guy" like Lucifer, things just couldn't be that damn easy. Since taking a human form, he roams the earth as a soul collector from Hell, killing people who have sold themselves to the devil. The catch—he's never been to Hell, nor does he plan on ever going there. His decision to assist in Satan's soul-hording endeavor is two-fold: it gives him a chance to lash out at the humans whom he blames for his exile, and it serves as the main conduit of his reckless plan to return to Heaven. Contrary to the traditional teachings of Christian mythology, Lucifer's a fallen angel (wait until you see his wings in the follow-up novel) who wants nothing more than to return to paradise.

Life on earth is full of surprises for this foul-mouthed and politically incorrect angel as he dodges the cops, the advances of a demonic transsexual and this strange new emotion he feels when he shows up to collect Sarah Brecker—the green-eyed, fiery-haired vixen whose image he can't seem to shake. During his fight to fall for her, Lucifer discovers he's at the center of a plot in which Satan may finally drag him into Hell. In the end, he must decide between waiting for Judgment Day or following that dull ache in his chest to save the woman who exposed him to love.

DYING FIRE, a fast-paced thriller, is packed with raw humor, violence, several semi-erotic scenes and a romance that shouldn't exist. This novel possesses enough religious controversy to rival that of Dan Brown’s Robert Langdon books and reads like Brian Haig on steroids.

The complete 80,000-word novel is available at your convenience. And you'll never look at a Vodka martini the same.


Lucifer's name isn't given until the showdown with Satan. And in the end, he turns out to be a "good guy." He's still raw and would make a horrible politician, but he ends up "saving" people instead of blaming them for his fall.

Sorry again for all the confusion. So, should I expose him in the query like I did for the novel? Or should I build it up for the surprise?

Tom

[scarletpeaches]

To play the role of my old friend scripter1 who hates the word never. I thought I would beat her to the punch...

So I should never write...

"Based on the novel, The Davinci Code, to which I own the rights?"


:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

It was the word 'off' that leapt out at me. You can't base something 'off' another thing; it must be based 'on' it.

[Joe Calabrese]

That grammar thing gets me every time.

[scarletpeaches]

My grammar used to make lovely tatties 'n' mince and a mean rhubarb crumble.

[Joe Calabrese]

For a "guy" like Lucifer, things just couldn't be that damn easy... assist in Satan's soul-hording endeavor... Lucifer's a fallen angel...

I think you're gonna confuse a lot of people, since Lucifer and Satan are believed by just about everyone to be one and the same entity, just different names for the same fallen angel.

Contrary to the traditional teachings of Christian mythology, Lucifer's a fallen angel (wait until you see his wings in the follow-up novel) who wants nothing more than to return to paradise

Christians know Lucifer is a fallen angel who does want to return to paradise-- to rule it, but the same desire nonetheless, so I'm confused there too.

So your hitman is Lucifer (but that's not revealed until the end?) who works for Satan but falls in love and screws with Satan?

A bigger problem you have is to make sure it doesn't sound like Ghost Rider which not only has been done recently, but it barely broke even in US box office. Yours sound a lot like it, in your description at least.

After knowing more, I would say to not reveal the surprise in your query. I would focus only on a hit man, a mysterious client, a love and a supernatural element.

I do have questions. How do you keep your protag sympathetic? He is killing people after all?

[tomvolz]

I do have questions. How do you keep your protag sympathetic? He is killing people after all?

In the beginning, he isn't. His plan is to kill as many people who have sold their souls to the devil simply to skew the numbers for the war on Judgment Day. If Satan has more on Hell's side, Lucifer thinks God will be forced to need his help and "welcome him back." He doesn't want to rule it. He just wants to go back to paradise.

His change starts to manifest when he goes to kill Sarah. Part of her deal with the devil involves the man she chooses to fall in love with her. She decides (when she's conned by Satan) to pick Lucifer, believing he won't be able to kill her. When he can't, Lucifer realizes something's wrong, but he can't fight it. It also adds another conflict as he figures her deal will be complete the second he says those three words to her. So, by trying to deny it, he feels he can keep her alive. But, if he does tell her he loves her (completing her deal), he's afraid he may be compelled to pull the trigger himself.

Add Mephistopheles (a transsexual prostitute who has a thing for Lucifer), a group of ruthless British mobsters, two stoners and a paranoid arms dealer (who sounds a lot like the tech support guys from Dell) to the mix.

As far as people believing Lucifer and Satan are the same, that's the angle I wanted to expose. When his name is revealed, people will think, "Holy shit, he's the devil." But when Satan's name is revealed shortly after, there should be some confusion. I'm trying to work it into 2 to 3 novels and screenplays that follow Lucifer as he fights the demons (who are trying to kill him and drag him into Hell) while he shows the humans the way out of their deals. And throughout, he denies himself entrance into Heaven because he too damn proud to ask God for forgiveness.

Thanks again for all the replies,
Tom

[icerose]

I would suggest giving him a nickname instead of Jon Doe, something that others call him, so he isn't completely nameless. Kind of like "The Jackel" with Bruce Willis.

[Joe Calabrese]

These are my opinions mind you. Take them as such and not the gospel. I may very well be wrong.

As a novel, which can be layered and slowly draw the reader to your views and ideas, are one thing and I'm sure it works well and you may have a great series of novels, but as a screenplay, you have a tough task ahead.

You do have to play with audience expectations and confusing them with the Lucifer, Satan being separate may be too much for any reader (film reader) to accept. In 1120-120 pages, you don't have the time to massage the reader like you would with a book. It has to be clear and have a hero you may not like, but be sympathetic and root for nonetheless.

Plus the Ghost Rider feel and similarities... Well. Too recent to bring something similar to the market.

Then comes the odds of selling a screenplay of this nature/theme/genre. Ghost Rider is a franchise and has a built in audience that is worth the risk. Hell. GR sucked as a film but still made over 100 million US because of the comic fan base.

Hollywood is weird when it comes to religious fantasy thrillers. The only one's that have been made recently are from already established franchises. Ghost Rider, Constantine, Even Davinci Code.

One non franchise film though from a decade ago.
If you look at the film Prophesy with Christopher Walken, that was clear cut and simple. Angels versus Fallen ones. They kept the characters the way we expect them to be. No big surprises or big changes in already known dogma. It was what it was.

Now as I said, your novel series may be absolutely phenomenal. One guy here on the forum, Liam Jackson, wrote a similar Genre novel called Offspring, and is doing well in hard cover. Got a great multiple book deal too. I read his novel and it was pretty straight forward and could be a good film because of the story not trying to change basic and established belief's. As good as it is though, as a film, he may get interest from Hollywood only if the book(s) do well enough for Hollywood to take that risk. They don't risk too often though.

These are my opinions mind you. I think it's gonna be a real tough sell for you but I don't think you should try and tell people that Lucifer and Satan are two different people, to start.

Best of luck to you.

Again. opinions...

[tomvolz]

The biggest difference between this and Ghost Rider, Constantine, etc. is that this is barely supernatural. They don't fly, throw fire, see things before they happen - stuff like that. The only supernatural elements involved are his ability to heal quickly, not instantly (bullet wound in the leg takes about three to four days to completely heal), and the demons' bodies dissolve within hours of death. They can be killed. But they can transsubstantiate into human form again - it does take a while though.

[Joe Calabrese]

Again, it is great that you are creating this world with a thought provoking and new set of religious mythos for a reader and I'm sure it works well in a novel, but theres a reason demons burst into flames and they fly and wounds heal instantaneously in movies. The genre demands it.

When you have only ninety minutes to two hours to tell your story and it is about demons, hit men, angels and such, it is a genre that demands action and special effects and taking three days to heal a leg wound isn't very actionable. Showing the wings in the second book may be okay, but in a movie it has to be early, well before the end of first act. (unless the fact that he is a fallen angel is the surprise at the end, not that he is a fallen angel and the surprise is which one.)

Now, if Jaws didn't kill anyone, but just bit legs off here and there, it would still be a shark movie, but not a very exciting one. It was those quick frantic deaths that made it tension and action filled and what we expect to be a shark thriller. A car chase at 70 miles an hour would still be a car chase, but unless you crash into a few other cars, swerve alot, blow out a tire and have a few near misses, people would feel ripped off. That is why every film with a car chase must be more daring and more damaging than previous films with car chases. The genre demands it.

Your story, regardless of intent, is automatically a supernatural thriller because of the subject matter and the fact that you have a hit man for Satan and will always be compared to Constantine, Prophesy and Ghost Rider, so it must live up to those comparisons and be much more.

Again. My opinions and they may be totally off. I'm also just going by what you are describing.

[tomvolz]

Just to be clear, I absolutely love this kind of feedback. I need to know what works and what doesn't in this field. I haven't sold the novel yet, so I'm not real sure what works in that field either. I do appreciate the opinions, and I need this kind of discussion.

I think this may be more comparable to Fallen with Denzel Washington than the movies previously suggested. It's probably even closer to The Replacement Killers or The Transporter - with the realization that, in the end, there's a lot more at stake than saving the girl and surviving this last big shootout (which takes place inside an old church).

[Joe Calabrese]

Ghost Rider ends with a shootout in an old church as do many films of the genre. Little cliche'. Think outside the box.

[tomvolz]

Ghost Rider ends with a shootout in an old church as do many films of the genre. Little cliche'. Think outside the box.

Damnit! Why do people steal my ideas before I have them?

Does one of the main characters get crucified in it too? And is he the only one who can set foot inside?

I probably should watch it. I just saw Constantine about a week ago.

[Joe Calabrese]

Ghost Rider had many inconstancies. They (the characters) mention that demons cannot set foot inside churches or hallowed ground, but Satan and the other demons broke that rule (that they themselves established) several times. That bugged me. If you are gonna make a rule, stick with it.

[icerose]

End of Days had someone crucified and the final battle scene in a church.