Publisher Loyalty

[Shady Lane]

Hi,

So my first book is coming out with a very small press, Cantarabooks, in September.

Cantara is very pro-independent press, and frequently speaks out against closed-doors-agent-only-huge publishers that limit opportunities for new writers. Cantara prides itself on publishing largely new authors.

I agree with this a lot, in principle. I do think it's unfortunate how a few large publishers dominate the industry, and I know firsthand that it makes it harder to break in. My sister has listened to me refer to Harpercollins or Bloomsbury or such as "monster publishers" everytime we go to a bookstore.

My royalties at Cantara are very good, far more than I think could be expected from most other presses. The sacrifice, of course, is the size of the distribution. I'm not going to be seeing my book in major bookstores. I'm not even sure who is going to be stocking it.

Which leads to another thing...although Cantara has been pretty wonderful, and I realize I'm still pretty early in the process, I haven't recieved a lot of personal attention. I got only one (very minor) edit. I haven't spoken to her over the phone or in person, only through email.

My question, I guess, is whether it's OK morally (and possibly also legally?) to pursue a different publisher for my next book. It's not that I'm unhappy (so far) with Cantara, but I don't want to have limited distribution forever. Would it be terrible of me to pursue a larger press? Is there an unwritten (or unwritten) rule regarding this procedure? Do I have to offer my new work to Cantara first, or at least inform them that I'm not offering it to them first?

Thanks to anyone who read this huge thing.

[infinitus_kaze]

I guess your answer would bring about another question: have you signed a contract with Cantarabooks? It sounds to me like this publisher may be another PublishAmerica; a vanity press masquerading as a traditional publisher. Traditional publishers won't usually accept unsolicited manuscripts and it sounds to me like this publisher does.

If you have signed a contract with the publisher you will have to somehow get them to terminate your contract before you can pursue another publisher. If you haven't signed a contract with them than it is completely alright for you to take your current book and/or future books to a different publisher. I see nothing wrong with changing publishers because, as far as I have come to understand it, publishers don't usually hire you as a full-time author. They sign a contract for your book or series and anything outside that contract can be distributed as you please to other publishers without moral or legal qualms.

[Shady Lane]

I guess your answer would bring about another question: have you signed a contract with Cantarabooks? It sounds to me like this publisher may be another PublishAmerica; a vanity press masquerading as a traditional publisher. Traditional publishers won't usually accept unsolicited manuscripts and it sounds to me like this publisher does.

If you have signed a contract with the publisher you will have to somehow get them to terminate your contract before you can pursue another publisher. If you haven't signed a contract with them than it is completely alright for you to take your current book and/or future books to a different publisher. I see nothing wrong with changing publishers because, as far as I have come to understand it, publishers don't usually hire you as a full-time author. They sign a contract for your book or series and anything outside that contract can be distributed as you please to other publishers without moral or legal qualms.

Nonono--trust me, I'm not dealing with a PublishAmerica. This isn't a vanity publisher. It's just a very small one. I'm getting paid, I'm DEFINITELY not paying, and I really am not unhappy with Cantarabooks. I just would like to have more distribution from a publisher in the future. In short, I think I will eventually want more than Cantara is able to offer me.

The book that they have accepted is staying with them. I'm wondering about future books.

[Elektra]

infinitus, it's not uncommon for small presses to consider unsolicited work, as, for the most part, they don't offer big enough advances to attract agented authors. In any case, CantaraBooks checks out at P&E.

[infinitus_kaze]

That's good to know. I misinterpreted your last post. Still, I think that there is nothing wrong morally with switching publishers for a different book. Authors do it all the time. You just need to make sure that the contract wasn't a ball and chain contract. Does the contract only speak of your current book or does it stipulate that X amount of future books will also be published through them?

[Toothpaste]

I find this all quite interesting. The sort of resentment without really proof towards these "monster publishers". While your publishers (and you) might have the noblest of intentions, don't forget that newbies get published with the "monster publishers" every year, it isn't an impossible task. And like you yourself said, despite their size, they still aren't giving you much attention. I've had three rounds of seriously huge edits before even getting my copy edits, and know of other authors who have had the same treatment. I think you need proof of quality from more than simply good intentions.

To answer your actual question (the longwinded Toothpaste strikes again): It depends, do you have a multiple book deal with them? What kind of contract have you signed? Many authors go through different publishers over the years, it is not unheard of :) .

[johnzakour]

Hi,

Unless you have a contract with Cantara for your second book or for "right of first refusal" for your second book, you are free to shop it to whomever.

Hopefully you don't have such a clause in your contract, unless of course they gave you a nice advance.

[Memnon624]

You absolutely can change publishers on future books, though make sure you check your contract to see what Cantara's rights are. Most publishers have the Right of First Refusal -- the right to read and make an offer on your next work (provided this isn't book one of a multi-book contact with them). You're not obligated to take their offer, but most such clauses I've seen limit you from taking another offer that's *less* than theirs.

Are they doing anything special marketing-wise that might cause your book to come to the attention of a larger publisher?

Best,

Scott

[aruna]

Hi,

Unless you have a contract with Cantara for your second book or for "right of first refusal" for your second book, you are free to shop it to whomever.

Hopefully you don't have such a clause in your contract, unless of course they gave you a nice advance.

That's exactly what I was going to say.

[johnzakour]

Cantara is very pro-independent press, and frequently speaks out against closed-doors-agent-only-huge publishers that limit opportunities for new writers.


Sorry to double post, but that does sound a bit like PA's spiel. The big guys publish new authors all the time. Yes, for most of them you have to go through an agent, but if a manuscript is good you will find an agent.

[James D. Macdonald]

It's perfectly fine to publish around. Find the right publisher for each book.

Whether you can depends on your option clause. That's why I recommend that you either cross out the option clause entirely or write it very, very narrowly.

Depending on one publisher is a good way to wind up living on cat food and sleeping on a park bench.

[Jamesaritchie]

Unless you're making Stephen King amounts of money, limiting yourself to one publisher is not going to help your career.

This is a job, and you should have no more loyalty to a publisher than to any other employer. If you're working a minimum wage job at the local Choke & Puke, you may be grateful for the work, but you aren't likely to turn down a twenty-five buck an hour job at the new factory in town, are you?

Loyalty is a good thing, but even your employer should be happy that you found a much better, higher paying job.

Not that I think large publishers play any part at all in keeping new writers unpublished. I see nothing at all wrong with an agents only submission policy. There always have been and always will be gatekeepers. It used to be that publishers hired the gatekeepers and called them "first readers." Now the gatekeepers are called agents, and they work independently, but gatekeepers have always been present.

The large publishers take on new writers on a regular basis. If you can't manage to attract a good agent, attracting a large publisher is no easier, regardless of who the gatekeepers are. The main reason it's "easier" to sell a novel to a small independent isn't because of gatekeepers, it's because the small independent publisher does not expect as much from a novel in terms of sales.

[veinglory]

So long as there is no exclusivity contract you sold them one book, not your soul. Do what you think best with the next one. But if you really do hate large publishers and their distribution, why support them? Or are you know realising what the big presses do that the little ones don't or can't? I stick entirely with the small presses but not because there is anything wrong with the large presses.

[Kristin Landon]

Large publishers offer some definite advantages, and as others have said, they are not impossible to sell to. My publisher accepts unsolicited queries with sample pages, by email even. That isn't how I sold to them, but I did so without an agent.

Staying or moving on is a business decision, of course, once any contract obligations are settled. I've got an excellent agent now, and I plan to listen to his advice.

But I've heard writers say that there are advantages to loyalty, especially when you're starting out. Your publisher, or at least your editor, sees you as an investment. They don't expect to make a ton of money on a first novel, but some at least look beyond that, toward developing your career. You don't have to be a bestselling author to make a profit for a publisher; just a reliable writer who keeps turning in books that keep selling decently. Taking a chance on a new writer is how they find and develop those.

[Will Lavender]

The thing I would worry about is the contact with your editor.

I'm with a big house -- Crown -- and I speak to my editor on the telephone and through e-mail on a regular basis. She called me the other night as I was doing my taxes and we talked about some things.

If she never called, I'd be worried. The book goes to her to get better before people actually see it. That's her job. And she's doing it extremely well. If we never spoke, seems like that would severely complicate her job.

[shadowrose45]

HI

You don't have to offer them or even tell them about a new work unless it's in your contract.

[Novelhistorian]

As people have been saying, this is a job, and you're not required to stay with a publisher just because it was the first to publish you. Rest assured that if you displeased the publisher in some way, you wouldn't be offered another contract, so there's no moral or economic law binding you.

If your contract does give the publisher an option on your next work, read it carefully to see what it says. Must you take whatever they offer? Do you have no right to submit the next book elsewhere while they make up their minds? If this pro-independent house walks the walk, they won't hold you up.

But in any case, never sign another contract that binds you to a house. According to the Authors Guild, such option clauses are on the way out, and they strictly advise against them. BTW, I'd recommend joining the Authors Guild. I've used their legal services a couple of times on minor issues, I have my website through them for a modest fee, and their booklet on contracts is worth the annual membership cost by itself.

[johnrobison]

There are a few reasons I can offer to stay with one publisher:

1) You had an enjoyable experience editing and producing your book, and your editor is looking forward to doing the next one with you
2) Your publisher has made an investment in building your name in association with them (something that does not happen much unless you have a front-list title.)
3) Your book did really well and the next book would move through the same distribution through the same sales staff to the same and more stores.

Otherwise, I guess you're smart to shop around.

I myself am with Crown, a division of Randon House and one of the publishers you profess to dislike. Your opinion notwithstanding, if you can get taken on by such a large house, there are innumerable advantages.

But if you're with a small press, shopping around may pay off.

[Shady Lane]

Hi,

I didn't mean to insult anyone who's published through a large press. God knows I envy you. It's just my stupid pride, and in a lot of ways those aren't even feelings I still have, but old ones I may have professed a little too loudly.

I checked my contract, and I absolutely haven't signed over any rights for future books. So no worries there.

I guess what I'm wondering is--how terrible a hypocrite would I be? I can't get over my stupid idea that this would be selling out.

I really hope this isn't offensive.

[ClaudiaGray]

You wouldn't be a hypocrite. You'd be a businessperson. We all try to be artists on one level, but we all have to be businesspeople on another. In the absence of an option, Cantara has no legal or moral claim on your future works.

[Toothpaste]

Maybe you could explain to us why you feel it would be selling out in order for us to answer how to make you feel like you aren't, as I personally don't see the logic. For example, to me selling out would be getting a publisher who then wanted me to change every little thing about my MS in order for me to get a lot of money. But from the authors I have communicated with, and from my own personal experience, this is most definitely not standard procedure. (I also return to your own admission that you are getting little personal attention with your small press [and I am not saying this is representative of all small presses I am being very specific here] and many people here who are with larger presses have admitted to getting lots of attention from their editors).

So then, what exactly is your definition of selling out? (this is a genuine question and not meant to sound leading at all)

[Kristin Landon]

If you have options beyond Cantara for your next book, and they truly want you to stay with them, they can prove it by paying for it: matching or bettering what you've been offered elsewhere. If they can't or won't do that, you're unquestionably better off elsewhere (given that your present publishers aren't putting a lot of time into your current book; if they had spent months helping you polish it, and could promise the same for the next, there might be more to argue for on their side).

[Cathy C]

I don't think you're a hypocrite. As others have said, publishing is a business. I can understand that you might feel nervous about adding another publisher to your list if you feel there might be "hurt feelings" involved (meaning you might lose BOTH publishers if the second deal fell through), but you shouldn't worry about that. You're actually thinking of the relationship in the exact opposite matter that you should. Books are the same as, for example, laundry soap.

A company makes soap
Soap is the product
The public buys soap

You're the soap.

The public doesn't care who makes it. If they want the soap, they'll go where it's available. The company making the soap has ALREADY made it (your first book.) The question then becomes whether a DIFFERENT KIND of soap should be made by the same company.

The soap should only care that they're meeting the expectations of the public. Where it's made isn't an issue.

While it's nice to stay with one company that truly believes in the product, the soap needs to get to the most public possible. The company can either do it or they can't. Only you can judge that.

Now, I'll temper this to say that there are certain benefits to being a big fish in a small pond, versus a small fish in a big pond. Being the lead title of a small publisher will likely get you more exposure than being a mid-list title with a large publisher. If you ARE the lead title and are getting the majority of the small pub's promo dollars, then the choice whether to leave becomes trickier because small pubs occasionally have sleeper hits that propel them to bigger things. If the publisher believes that YOU'RE that sleeper, then you might want to stay for one more book to test the waters.

If, however, you're mid-list even with the small pub, then don't hesitate to move to bigger things or simply offer the book you feel is best suited to their line, while sending other books elsewhere. There are bunches of authors with multiple publishers for both different genre or different subgenre books. It's only when you're starting to step on toes---such as publishers wanting to send you on conflicting tours, or getting offended that you're not able to meet your contract deadlines because of contracts with other publishers---that there's a problem.

Good luck, and hope that helps a little. :)

[Jamesaritchie]

Hi,

I didn't mean to insult anyone who's published through a large press. God knows I envy you. It's just my stupid pride, and in a lot of ways those aren't even feelings I still have, but old ones I may have professed a little too loudly.

I checked my contract, and I absolutely haven't signed over any rights for future books. So no worries there.

I guess what I'm wondering is--how terrible a hypocrite would I be? I can't get over my stupid idea that this would be selling out.

I really hope this isn't offensive.

The sign of a good mind is that it changes when new facts emerge. Isn't the small publisher trying to sell your books? Aren't they trying to make a profit off your writing. Or are they giving your books away?

I'm a firm believer in loyalty, riding for the brand, but this does not in any way mean I'm going to stay in the same, low-paying job all my life.

Being loyal means that while you have books with a given publisher you do two things. 1. You write those books as well as you possibly can. 2. You do everything possible to help sell those books.

What you do not do is agree to spend the rest of your life with this publisher simply because they gave you a chance. You do all the right things while there, you work hard, write well, and promote your books. This is loyalty. But if the publisher expects you to stay there forever, then the publisher is not being loyal to you.

[veinglory]

If you really dislike the business model of large press to the point of finding it morally reprehensible--yes, IMHO, it would be selling out. So I guess you need to think that over. Are large presses really that destructive, or are there in fact some you think are a constructive influence? Which do you already support by purchasing their product?

[Shady Lane]

Maybe you could explain to us why you feel it would be selling out in order for us to answer how to make you feel like you aren't, as I personally don't see the logic. For example, to me selling out would be getting a publisher who then wanted me to change every little thing about my MS in order for me to get a lot of money. But from the authors I have communicated with, and from my own personal experience, this is most definitely not standard procedure. (I also return to your own admission that you are getting little personal attention with your small press [and I am not saying this is representative of all small presses I am being very specific here] and many people here who are with larger presses have admitted to getting lots of attention from their editors).

So then, what exactly is your definition of selling out? (this is a genuine question and not meant to sound leading at all)

This post really helped me. Thanks.

I don't think it's really about "selling out." My feelings are sort old, like I said....and I think it stems from all the resentment I felt from getting rejected from large presses. And I know most people get rejected many more times than I did--but I was thirteen when I got my first rejection, you know? It was a blow.

But I'm feeling better about all of this now. Thanks, guys.

[Sassenach]

A contractual relationship is about business, not loyalty.

I checked out the Cantara site and it seems ok. They don't seem to have much in the way of distribution. I do think she's lying like a rug when she says:

Stephen Gyllenhaal, who is just releasing a book of poetry titled Claptrap: Notes from Hollywood. Yes, he is the dad of those Gyllenhaals. It’s not a matter of cashing in on the familiar name, and the thing is, Gyllenhaal's book of poetry is "technically brilliant...showing complete mastery of poetic idiom."

[job]

When you talk about 'selling out,
I'm not sure I understand,
but I do think you should hold to what you believe.

If you object to a large publisher on principle,
then you might see which small and medium sized publishers are available in bookstores, (and likely to offer you more sales than Cantara.)

If you don't object to large publishers on principle, then the next logical step might be to find an agent.

[johnrobison]

Hi,

I didn't mean to insult anyone who's published through a large press. God knows I envy you. It's just my stupid pride, and in a lot of ways those aren't even feelings I still have, but old ones I may have professed a little too loudly.

I checked my contract, and I absolutely haven't signed over any rights for future books. So no worries there.

I guess what I'm wondering is--how terrible a hypocrite would I be? I can't get over my stupid idea that this would be selling out.

I really hope this isn't offensive.

It's not offensive. You should rationally evaluate what you and your publisher have done for each other.

Your feelings of "selling them out" should depend upon what they've done for you. Did they simply publish your book, stock it in a warehouse, and wait for people to order it?

Or did they make a substantial investment in building you as a brand, so that book and future books would sell?

For example, my publisher is doing quite a bit more than just print my book. There's a whole team of them down there, with the publisher at the top, then the executive editor, the assistant, the publicity person, the sales person, the foreign rights person . . . the list goes on, and they all communicate with me at various times to tell me what's happening.

Now that I'm building relationships with all those people, and they are getting to know me, why on earth would I dump them? I wouldn't. But not everyone has that experience. Your publisher may not have assigned all those people, or they may have been indifferent. My editor and I worked really well together. You may feel your experience sucked. I can certainly see many places that things could fall apart. Did they fall apart for you?

Let me give you another point to ponder. I've been told that publishers devote 90% of their resources to selling their big names and titles. Even if your book sales are modest per title, by doing several books with the same house, you are going to rise in importance. So, if you like your publisher (but they just have not done much) consider the possiblility that they will put more into you as you show a greater investment in them with book #2.

Remember this: For all the authors that say, what has this publisher done for me? there are publishers saying the same thing in reverse.

[Rob B]

I responded to a question like this from someone else the other day. You might find that this small publisher is a blessing if you are able to provide
some of the marketing support (via sweat, not money) for your work.
You may be reciprocated in kind and sell a lot more of your first book than you would with a major publisher (at this stage of your writing career).

What I suggested to the other thread originator was to consider taking a look at the chapter in Judith Appelbaum's HOW TO GET HAPPILY PUBLISHED that deals with the small publisher and the advantages most first-time writers perhaps don't consider.

By the way, congratulations.

[Shady Lane]

I responded to a question like this from someone else the other day. You might find that this small publisher is a blessing if you are able to provide
some of the marketing support (via sweat, not money) for your work.
You may be reciprocated in kind and sell a lot more of your work than you
would with a major publisher (at this stage of your writing career).

What I suggested to the other thread originator was to consider taking a look at the chapter in Judith Appelbaum's HOW TO GET HAPPILY PUBLISHED that deals with the small publisher and the advantages most first-time writers perhaps don't consider.

By the way, congratulations.

Haha, thanks.

[EelKat]

I have a question:

You say that your book will not be widely distributed and major bookstores may not be carrying it? Why the hell not? A publisher DOES NOT distribute books to bookstores. A professional publisher will hire one of the national book distributors and your book will go on the list. That list is than mailed out to EVERY SINGLE BOOKSTORE and the bookstores choose books based on what they think will sell.

I know this because I happen to be a publisher, and this is just standard policy used by all publishing houses - big ones, small ones, tiny ones... it's what a publisher does, it's part of their job to see to it that your book gets on as many book shelves as possible.

If your book is not being distributed to major bookstores, than you really should be asking some questions about why they do not hire a national distributor. Fact is, good royalties don't mean squat if no books are sold. Ask them which book distributors will be representing your book at the Book Expo America book fair, the American Library Association Book Fair, the National Association of College Stores Book Fair, the Frankfurt Book Fair, and all the others?

Ask them which distributor are they using: Baker & Taylor? Ingram Book Co? (If they are using one of these 2 than your book will be listed in the store catalog in each of over 150,000 bookstores nation wide). Smaller ones they might use could include: The Bookmen, Southern Book Service, Washington Book Distributors, Brodart, Emery-Pratt Company, Ambassador Book Service, Eastern Book Company, and dozens more.

If they are not hiring a distributor, ask them why? If they do not use book distributors than you really should look into a different publisher, because without a distributor you are not going to have any book sales. Even tiny small presses that publish 1 title a year hire out distributors.

I would seriously question the reputation of a publisher that did not have a way to distribute books.