Tombstone movie question

[Vanatru]

Sorry for the non-liteary question, but I'm pressed for time and couldn't find the answer on IMDB.

In the movie Tombstone, when Johnny Ringo was in the saloon. Doc Holiday was doing that funky twirling thing with the silver cup. Who was the guy with Ringo, wearing the red shirt with the mustache?

Thanks. Gotta run.

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

That would be Curly Bill Brocious. :)

[Cav Guy]

Powers Boothe, if memory serves. Great role for him, although the character was much more fictional than real.

[Vanatru]

Thank ya Ol' Girl. :)

I didn't recognize Power Booths as that guy. I was actually suprised to hear that it was him.

Is it just me, or was Doc Holliday's character a bit "nutty"?

[Cav Guy]

He was, but brilliantly played.

[Bmwhtly]

All hail Val Kilmer.
But Powers Boothe was better in Southern Comfort in my opinion.

[dpaterso]

Kilmer vs. Quaid makes for an interesting performance comparison.

Powers Boothe always adds something to a film. EXTREME PREJUDICE (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092997/) was a good modern Western.

-Derek

[Bmwhtly]

Now that I come to think of it, would you consider Southern Comfort a modern western?
Two soldiers stranded in apache country?

[dpaterso]

Tough one to answer. The story could fit any genre, but I didn't think of the film in Western terms even tho' it has all the conventions, right up to the cavalry arriving at the end to save the day. :)

-Derek

[JeanneTGC]

That Kilmer didn't win Best Supporting Actor for the year Tombstone came out was a crime. The bigger crime was that neither he nor Dennis Quaid were even NOMINATED for Best Supporting Actor for that year. Both their performances (in Tombstone and Wyatt Earp, respectively) were far and away better than the other nominees'. I loved them both, but I have to give it to Kilmer by a huckleberry. ;)

[Jamesaritchie]

I thought Kilmer portrayed Doc Holiday perfectly. Far better than any other portrayal I've seen. A wonderful performance.

[rhymegirl]

That Kilmer didn't win Best Supporting Actor for the year Tombstone came out was a crime. The bigger crime was that neither he nor Dennis Quaid were even NOMINATED for Best Supporting Actor for that year. Both their performances (in Tombstone and Wyatt Earp, respectively) were far and away better than the other nominees'. I loved them both, but I have to give it to Kilmer by a huckleberry. ;)

Oh I definitely agree! I loved Val Kilmer in Tombstone. Great performance.

[aka eraser]

Kilmer was okay in Tombstone but I had a hard time buying any of the leads. They were a bit too young and bit too pretty.

[JeanneTGC]

Kilmer was okay in Tombstone but I had a hard time buying any of the leads. They were a bit too young and bit too pretty.
Um, you're aware that Wyatt Earp was born in 1848? And that if he was in Tombstone in, say, 1880, that would make him ALL of 32? And Virgil would have been ALL of 37?

The actors were too OLD for the roles, other than Kilmer, not too young.

Oh, and Wyatt was considered an extremely handsome man for the day and age.

Tombstone (the movie) has a lot of historical inaccuracies in it (Wyatt Earp is pretty good on the historical aspect, just not as good as a movie), but Kurt Russell played younger just fine, I thought. :D

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

Tombstone sucked for historical accuracy (Curly Bill, IIRC, came after Ringo as the leader of the Cowboys and Ringo was found dead, apparently from a self-inflicted gunshot wound. Kate (the Hungarian Anti-Christ) wasn't very accurate and neither was Maggie - but what a movie! Kilmer's Best Work Ever. He stole the show and provided me and Ol' Boy with many a quote to throw around. It's one of those movies I can watch over and over... and have. At least ten-fifteen times. Hence my ability to remember who was with Ringo in the Latin scene. :D

[LloydBrown]

I thought Kilmer portrayed Doc Holiday perfectly. Far better than any other portrayal I've seen. A wonderful performance.

True story.

[aka eraser]

Different strokes I guess. I just thought they looked too young to pull off the world-weary 'tude they were projecting.

[Jamesaritchie]

Kilmer was okay in Tombstone but I had a hard time buying any of the leads. They were a bit too young and bit too pretty.

Well, no. If there was ever a perfect Wyatt Earp, it was Kurt Russell. He was about the right age, maybe a little too old, and when young, Earp was considered quite a looker and lady's man.

And Russell has the eyes for it. The scene where he chases the crooked gambler out of the saloon was as perfect and realistic as I've ever seen, and it was his eyes that made it so.

Historically, the movie wasn't terribly accurate, but as people, the casting of all the Earps was as good as it gets.

[Jamesaritchie]

Tombstone sucked for historical accuracy (Curly Bill, IIRC, came after Ringo as the leader of the Cowboys and Ringo was found dead, apparently from a self-inflicted gunshot wound. Kate (the Hungarian Anti-Christ) wasn't very accurate and neither was Maggie - but what a movie! Kilmer's Best Work Ever. He stole the show and provided me and Ol' Boy with many a quote to throw around. It's one of those movies I can watch over and over... and have. At least ten-fifteen times. Hence my ability to remember who was with Ringo in the Latin scene. :D

Well, in a sense, this movie did Ringo right. He was found dead, shot through the head, lying against a tree, but not many at the time thought the wound was self-inflicted.

[JeanneTGC]

Well, in a sense, this movie did Ringo right. He was found dead, shot through the head, lying against a tree, but not many at the time thought the wound was self-inflicted.
Right. And Doc Holliday was questioned about the death, but so were two or three other people. "Suicide" was a convenient way to say "we have no idea and don't care to try any longer".

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

I don't think many mourned him and I doubt they spent a whole lotta time on it at all. The scene where he and Doc dance is about as juicy as they come, though. And 'You're no daisy. You're no daisy at all.' is a classic.

[JeanneTGC]

"I'm your huckleberry."

I just LOVE that line. :D

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

"Poor soul, he was so high-strung. Afraid the strain was more than he could bear."

[dpaterso]

I would have to politely argue with Val Kilmer being the best Doc Holliday, tho' of course it's a matter of personal taste. Kirk Douglas's performance in Gunfight at the O.K. Corral (1957) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050468/) is sublime; Vic Mature surprised everyone when they cast him opposite Henry Fonda in My Darling Clementine (1946) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038762/); and Stacy Keach in 'Doc' (1971) (http://imdb.com/title/tt0067003/) made a fine job of the role. I'm not pretending to be some film fanatic who remembers everything and can quote lines from 'way back, but I remember these films and how the performances impressed me.

You've probably all seen this kind of stuff before, but there are nice capsule stories on the Old West Legends (http://www.theoutlaws.com/) site. The Table of Contents (http://www.theoutlaws.com/table.htm) link includes Outlaws & Gunslingers (http://www.theoutlaws.com/outlaws.htm), among whom is John Henry "Doc" Holliday (http://www.theoutlaws.com/outlaws1.htm).

-Derek

[Bmwhtly]

After this thread, I felt the need to watch it again. For the first time in a long while.

Kilmer was okay in Tombstone but I had a hard time buying any of the leads. They were a bit too young and bit too pretty.I thought the exact opposite, Kurt Russell wasn't old and grizzled but I certainly wouldn't say he was young and pretty.
As for Sam Elliot (Virgil), I'm not sure anyone's ever called him young and pretty.
But that's just my opinion.

Well, in a sense, this movie did Ringo right. I noticed a mildly interesting thing last night.
In the 'Latin' scene when Ringo shows off by twirling his pistol, you can see him twirling but you can see the actors face too. Does that mean the actor (I forget his name) is actually a trained gun-twirler?

[dpaterso]

Michael Biehn of ALIENS fame played Ringo. It's not hard to believe that an actor would practice gun slinging skills if he knew he was up for a role in a Western. Wasn't it Lee Van Cleef whose draw, from holster to firing position, occupied only 3 film frames? That's a fraction of a second.

-Derek

[Bmwhtly]

That is a fraction of a second. One second is what? 24 frames?

But then, in the Magnificent Seven, Eli Wallach couldn't holster his pistol without looking.
Either way, drawing fast and firing blanks for the camera doesn't mean you have to hit anything. Like in Sunset.

[dpaterso]

Lee Van Cleef was a known perfectionist, I'd bet hard cash that he drew, fired real bullets and hit the target (tho' I'd expect this took longer than 3 frames :)). It sounds like a Bruce Lee-type urban legend but I've seen film people in documentaries talk of this and grin in wonderment.

On a similar note, in the making of the Magnificent Seven documentary, I think it was the AD who told the tale of how the Mexican actors playing the banditos unexpectedly took on the role of Eli Wallach's entourage, they took care of his horse and checked his guns every morning, and once they verified everything was OK filming started. John Sturges just let them get on with it since everybody was happy.

Sunset?

-Derek

[Bmwhtly]

Lee Van Cleef was a known perfectionist, I'd bet hard cash that he drew, fired real bullets and hit the target (tho' I'd expect this took longer than 3 frames :)). I admire that.

On a similar note, in the making of the Magnificent Seven documentary, I think it was the AD who told the tale of how the Mexican actors playing the banditos unexpectedly took on the role of Eli Wallach's entourage, they took care of his horse and checked his guns every morning, and once they verified everything was OK filming started. John Sturges just let them get on with it since everybody was happy.I remember that, but it was Wallach himself who said that if he tried to holster his pistol without looking, it'd end up in the dirt.

Sunset?Yep. Sunset. It's a film. James Garner as Wyatt Earp, Bruce Willis as Tom Mix. It's kind of a light-hearted thing. Earp is hired as technical advisor on a film that Mix is making (Which, I understand, happened). the two of them end up trying to solve a murder around the time of the first Academy Awards. Not a great film but quite entertaining.
It's all true, give or take a lie or two.

[dpaterso]

Quick search... Oh, right, Sunset (1988) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096193/) -- sounds like fun, thanks, I'll have to look out for that one!

Tom Mix: Wait a minute, Wyatt, there's something we gotta get sorted out here. I threatened to rope him behind my horse and drag him, then you waltz in pretty as you please and threaten to kill him. I don't like being out-threatened.
Wyatt Earp: Sorry. Won't happen again.

-Derek

[Bmwhtly]

I just had a look at the wiki entry for it. Apparently it was nominated for a cosutme oscar. It also won an award for Worst Director.
But it's got Malcolm McDowell playing Charlie Chaplin, so you can't go wrong.

[Cav Guy]

Michael Biehn of ALIENS fame played Ringo. It's not hard to believe that an actor would practice gun slinging skills if he knew he was up for a role in a Western. Wasn't it Lee Van Cleef whose draw, from holster to firing position, occupied only 3 film frames? That's a fraction of a second.

-Derek
Biehn was also in Terminator (the first one). He's actually one of my favorite "lesser known" actors, and he and Kilmer played wonderfully off each other in Tombstone.

[JeanneTGC]

He also was the main lead in the Magnificent Seven TV series. (Which I loved.) (More then the original movie.) (So sue me -- the men were hotter in the TV series and I have my standards for visual entertainment.)

[Jamesaritchie]

After this thread, I felt the need to watch it again. For the first time in a long while.

I thought the exact opposite, Kurt Russell wasn't old and grizzled but I certainly wouldn't say he was young and pretty.
As for Sam Elliot (Virgil), I'm not sure anyone's ever called him young and pretty.
But that's just my opinion.

I noticed a mildly interesting thing last night.
In the 'Latin' scene when Ringo shows off by twirling his pistol, you can see him twirling but you can see the actors face too. Does that mean the actor (I forget his name) is actually a trained gun-twirler?

In this case, I don't know. But I can say many actors in westerns became masters at gun twirling very quickly. Many learned just because they had so much spare time on their hands between scenes. It really isn't as hard as it looks, especially when you have as man do overs as you need, and if there's an expert on hand to show you what to do, most pick it up very, very fast.

I remember some of the actors on the Rawhide series became so good at the fast draw, and at twirling Colts, that the director had to be careful how they used handguns in actual scenes because they looked like gunfighters, rather than cowhands.

[Jamesaritchie]

Lee Van Cleef was a known perfectionist, I'd bet hard cash that he drew, fired real bullets and hit the target (tho' I'd expect this took longer than 3 frames :)). It sounds like a Bruce Lee-type urban legend but I've seen film people in documentaries talk of this and grin in wonderment.

On a similar note, in the making of the Magnificent Seven documentary, I think it was the AD who told the tale of how the Mexican actors playing the banditos unexpectedly took on the role of Eli Wallach's entourage, they took care of his horse and checked his guns every morning, and once they verified everything was OK filming started. John Sturges just let them get on with it since everybody was happy.

Sunset?

-Derek

I don't know how fast three frames is, but I do know the average person can be taught to draw and fire in well under half a second. Someone with good hands, good reflexes, and good hand speed can draw and fire in under a quarter of a second.

A really world class man can beat this by a mile. The world record for drawing and firing is .0175 hundredths of one second. This time is less than one half, of one half, of one tenth, of one second. It was set in 1976 by Bob Munden with a standard, stock weight Colt .45.

[dclary]

Kilmer was okay in Tombstone but I had a hard time buying any of the leads. They were a bit too young and bit too pretty.

Reminds me of The Onion's review of HBO's The Tudors: "A sexy, hip look at what England's royal family would be like if they had access to breast implants and face lifts."

[dclary]

I don't know how fast three frames is, but I do know the average person can be taught to draw and fire in well under half a second. Someone with good hands, good reflexes, and good hand speed can draw and fire in under a quarter of a second.

A really world class man can beat this by a mile. The world record for drawing and firing is .0175 hundredths of one second. This time is less than one half, of one half, of one tenth, of one second. It was set in 1976 by Bob Munden with a standard, stock weight Colt .45.

Mel Gibson said that when they were filming the fight scenes with Jet Li in Lethal Weapon 4 they had to force him to slow down, because it was all getting lost between frames.

[pepperlandgirl]

I just have to come in and announce my love for Kilmer as Holiday as well. In fact, I was so enthralled by his performance that I became totally obsessed with the "old west" and finding every piece of biography I could on Holiday and the Earps.

In fact, I own the director's cut dvd and have for a little over a year now. I only recently (like last month) watched it straight through and discovered there were more scenes of Doc!!! It was like Christmas morning! I was beyond thrilled. They were short, but man, I had no idea they were coming, and it was awesome.

I also love Johnny Ringo. I almost get shivers when Curly Bill asks him what he would do if he sold his soul and he calmly replies "I already did it."

"Even I'm worried about what will happen when Johnny takes over this outfit! God have mercy!"

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

Reminds me of The Onion's review of HBO's The Tudors: "A sexy, hip look at what England's royal family would be like if they had access to breast implants and face lifts."

And what a weasel they picked to play Henry!

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

Biehn was also in Terminator (the first one). He's actually one of my favorite "lesser known" actors, and he and Kilmer played wonderfully off each other in Tombstone.

He did the movie 'Abyss', too... he got kinda type-cast there for awhile with the 'man with the crazy look in his eyes' parts.

[Vanatru]

Sheeesh, I ask one question, and go away for a day or so and you kids get all talky and stuff.

Now..........smarty pants.

What kinda pistol was Doc, Ringo, and Curious Bill (?) using?

[JeanneTGC]

Sheeesh, I ask one question, and go away for a day or so and you kids get all talky and stuff.

Now..........smarty pants.

What kinda pistol was Doc, Ringo, and Curious Bill (?) using?
:ROFL: CURLY Bill. Curious GEORGE. One's an old west outlaw. One's a silent, cute little monkey. One hangs with gunslingers. One hangs with the man in the yellow hat.

I can't look up the pistols now...I'm too busy imagining Curious George shooting six guns and Curly Bill holding the man in the yellow hat's hand on a tour of the zoo...

[dpaterso]

Mel Gibson said that when they were filming the fight scenes with Jet Li in Lethal Weapon 4 they had to force him to slow down, because it was all getting lost between frames.
Jet would have liked that lots; Bruce Lee had the same problem.

-Derek

[Cav Guy]

Sheeesh, I ask one question, and go away for a day or so and you kids get all talky and stuff.

Now..........smarty pants.

What kinda pistol was Doc, Ringo, and Curious Bill (?) using?
They were mostly 4 3/4 inch Peacemakers or Frontiers (difference is caliber), although Doc had a double action piece in a shoulder rig. Curly Bill had a longer barreled Colt if memory serves. (Damn...I need to buy the director's cut now!)

[Jamesaritchie]

I would have to politely argue with Val Kilmer being the best Doc Holliday, tho' of course it's a matter of personal taste. Kirk Douglas's performance in Gunfight at the O.K. Corral (1957) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050468/) is sublime; Vic Mature surprised everyone when they cast him opposite Henry Fonda in My Darling Clementine (1946) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0038762/); and Stacy Keach in 'Doc' (1971) (http://imdb.com/title/tt0067003/) made a fine job of the role. I'm not pretending to be some film fanatic who remembers everything and can quote lines from 'way back, but I remember these films and how the performances impressed me.

You've probably all seen this kind of stuff before, but there are nice capsule stories on the Old West Legends (http://www.theoutlaws.com/) site. The Table of Contents (http://www.theoutlaws.com/table.htm) link includes Outlaws & Gunslingers (http://www.theoutlaws.com/outlaws.htm), among whom is John Henry "Doc" Holliday (http://www.theoutlaws.com/outlaws1.htm).

-Derek

My problem with this movie is that I sincerely doubt any movie, in any genre, has ever been as historically inaccurate. I expect historical inaccuracies, but the one with Victor Mature got every last detail wrong except the names of the characters. Not a single thing was correct in that movie. Nothing. And Doc Holiday gets killed in the fight? I mean, how can anyone write a script where this happens?

Really, from the opening on, not a single thing was accurate, or even remotely so.

[dpaterso]

My problem with this movie is that I sincerely doubt any movie, in any genre, has ever been as historically inaccurate. I expect historical inaccuracies, but the one with Victor Mature got every last detail wrong except the names of the characters. Not a single thing was correct in that movie. Nothing. And Doc Holiday gets killed in the fight? I mean, how can anyone write a script where this happens?

Really, from the opening on, not a single thing was accurate, or even remotely so.
I guess we've jumped from actor performances to historical accuracy.

Yep, it's pretty much acknowledged that history was bent more than slightly for "dramatic" purposes, I'm guessing they didn't have Google back then to check their facts before they wrote the darn script. Yet despite this Clementine remains a great film and is regarded as a John Ford classic. Go figure!

Goofs for My Darling Clementine (1946)
Factual errors: Doc Holliday did not die at the O.K. Corral. He died six years later from tuberculosis.

Factual errors: In the film, "Old Man" Clanton (Walter Brennan) is shot and killed after the gunfight. In actuality, "Old Man" Clanton died in August 1881 - before the gunfight - and was not a principal in the gunfight itself or in the events immediately prior to the gunfight.

Factual errors: The film shows Wyatt Earp (Henry Fonda) and John "Doc" Holliday (Victor Mature) meeting for the first time in Tombstone, AZ. In reality, Earp and Holliday were good friends by the time they came together in Tombstone, as they had met years earlier at Fort Griffin, TX.

Factual errors: The ages of the Earp brothers is reversed. In the movie, James is in his late teens, Virgil is in his twenties, Wyatt is about thirty, and Morgan is well into his thirties. In actuality, at the time of the OK Corral gunfight, James was 40, Virgil was 38, Wyatt was 33, and Morgan was 30.

Factual errors: In the film, the OK Corral gunfight happens in 1882. It actually happened on October 26, 1881.

Anachronisms: The song "Clementine" was not written until 1883, the year after the action in this film takes place (1882), and two years after the real gunfight (1881).

Factual errors: The gunfight took place in the afternoon, not in the morning.

Factual errors: The movie shows James Earp killed (murdered) with his marker showing "born 1864 died 1882". However, James Earp was actually born in 1841 and died in 1926 of natural causes. It was Morgan Earp who was murdered on 18 March 1882.

Factual errors: The movie shows Virgil Earp killed (murdered - shot in back) by Old Man Clanton. However, in actuality, Virgil survived being shot from ambush on 28 December 1881, but never fully recovered from the wound in his left arm. He lived until 1905, succumbing to pneumonia at age 57.

-Derek

[Vanatru]

:ROFL:CURLY Bill. Curious GEORGE. One's an old west outlaw. One's a silent, cute little monkey. One hangs with gunslingers. One hangs with the man in the yellow hat.

Look Smarty...................I'M curious Bill. I used to wear a yellow hat, but that was years ago.





I can't look up the pistols now...I'm too busy imagining Curious George shooting six guns and Curly Bill holding the man in the yellow hat's hand on a tour of the zoo...

Now, I am Curly Bill when I flexing that mightly muscled back of mine and the wavy curls of manly man hair are visible. Like amber waves of grain.

And don't make fun of monkeys...........ya never know when the Chimp Shooters will be in town. They may not cotton to your tone missy.

[Jamesaritchie]

I guess we've jumped from actor performances to historical accuracy.

Yep, it's pretty much acknowledged that history was bent more than slightly for "dramatic" purposes, I'm guessing they didn't have Google back then to check their facts before they wrote the darn script. Yet despite this Clementine remains a great film and is regarded as a John Ford classic. Go figure!



-Derek

Didn't have Google? School kids knew Doc Holiday didn't get killed. History wasn't bent for dramatic purposes in this movie, history was never even looked at. Some idiot said "Let's do a movie about Wyatt Earp," some other idiot said, "Wyatt who? Oh, didn't he have some kind of gunfight?" and a third idiot said, "Someone get me a list of names, and write me a script."

It's a good western, but it is not about Wyatt Earp, Doc Holiday, or any other historical figures or events. There isn't a historical figure or real historical event in the movie, just a few people who happen to have similar names to real people.

Can you tell I hate this movie, and everyone involved in making it?

[Vanatru]

How tall was Doc? In real life of course.

Shoot.........Wyatt, Earl, and Ringo for that matter.

And a Rep point to the first person who can tell me how tall Curious Bill was.

[dpaterso]

Can you tell I hate this movie, and everyone involved in making it?
Pretty much. :)

Even the Cinematographer?

The book ("Wyatt Earp, Frontier Marshal" by Stuart N. Lake) from which elements of the script were presumably taken since the title appears in the credits, would seem to have a high measure of authenticity about it, given that Wyatt Earp assisted his biographer: http://skyways.lib.ks.us/orgs/fordco/lake.html (foreword)

For those who may be interested in the book:
http://www.google.com/search?q=Wyatt+Earp+Frontier+Marshal+Lake

-Derek

[JeanneTGC]

How tall was Doc? In real life of course.

Shoot.........Wyatt, Earl, and Ringo for that matter.

And a Rep point to the first person who can tell me how tall Curious Bill was.
Do I have to look it up? I'm still sick. Wyatt was over 6 feet, I believe. Pretty sure Doc was shorter. Can't remember what Ringo was at all off the top of my head, other than dead before the others.

Who is Earl? Does he ride with Curious Bill and the Man in the Yellow Duster?

Curious Bill, in my mind, is about 4'5". He makes Michael J. Fox look like a tall man.

(I write humor, too, remember...suddenly, that Western satire I've always thought about finally has its villains...)

[JeanneTGC]

Can you tell I hate this movie, and everyone involved in making it?
I'm with you there. I'm not exactly a screaming fan of "Gunfight at the O.K. Corral" either. That theme song alone...though it IS good for some laughs.

I can no longer watch the first 1/3 of "Winchester '73" for the same reasons. Love the last 2/3rds, though.

[Jamesaritchie]

Pretty much. :)

Even the Cinematographer?

The book ("Wyatt Earp, Frontier Marshal" by Stuart N. Lake) from which elements of the script were presumably taken since the title appears in the credits, would seem to have a high measure of authenticity about it, given that Wyatt Earp assisted his biographer: http://skyways.lib.ks.us/orgs/fordco/lake.html (foreword)

For those who may be interested in the book:
http://www.google.com/search?q=Wyatt+Earp+Frontier+Marshal+Lake

-Derek

Credits seldom mean much. And Wyatt Earp gave a very good account of exactly how the fight went, right down to the last detail, and not a single piece of what he said was used in the movie. What he said wasn't just ignored, it was as if the script writer did the exact opposite in every case.

Really, you should read Earp's actual account of the fight, and compare this to the movie. There isn't a single element of the script that was even remotely true to life. Nor was the book Frontier Marshal terribly accurate, for that matter.

And not to belittle Stuart N. Lake too much, but if he ever wrote a word of historical fact, I haven't found it. Many of the things he was involved with were highly entertaining, but accurate they were not.

I doubt this was really his fault, or something he even thought about. Historical accuracy in westerns is a fairly new approach, but if you want to know how things really were, Stuart N. Lake is NOT the source to use in any way.

[Vanatru]

Do I have to look it up? I'm still sick. Wyatt was over 6 feet, I believe. Pretty sure Doc was shorter. Can't remember what Ringo was at all off the top of my head, other than dead before the others.

Who is Earl? Does he ride with Curious Bill and the Man in the Yellow Duster?

Curious Bill, in my mind, is about 4'5". He makes Michael J. Fox look like a tall man.

(I write humor, too, remember...suddenly, that Western satire I've always thought about finally has its villains...)


You get the "Dork" rep point.

Earl is the tough town marshall that drinks too much and knocks his wife around. Till his wife killed him and stuffed his body in the back of that wagon then dumped it in the lake. You don't remember the song about him?



"Hello, Chimp Shooters? Yeah, there's this gal who is making fun of you guys. What's that? Yes, the one who looks like a cat. That's her."

[Festus]

Awww, Jeanne is good folks, Vanatu, we know she loves us!

[JeanneTGC]

Awww, Jeanne is good folks, Vanatu, we know she loves us!
I do indeed. I even love our town drunk/amiable good ol' boy, Van. ;)

Just call me Miss Kitty. :D

[Vanatru]

*sigh*

Great...........first I'm a chimp...........now I'm the guy that locks his own jail cell . Just call me "Cletus". ;)

Who's Aunt Bee and who's Opie?

[Cav Guy]

Credits seldom mean much. And Wyatt Earp gave a very good account of exactly how the fight went, right down to the last detail, and not a single piece of what he said was used in the movie. What he said wasn't just ignored, it was as if the script writer did the exact opposite in every case.

Really, you should read Earp's actual account of the fight, and compare this to the movie. There isn't a single element of the script that was even remotely true to life. Nor was the book Frontier Marshal terribly accurate, for that matter.

And not to belittle Stuart N. Lake too much, but if he ever wrote a word of historical fact, I haven't found it. Many of the things he was involved with were highly entertaining, but accurate they were not.

I doubt this was really his fault, or something he even thought about. Historical accuracy in westerns is a fairly new approach, but if you want to know how things really were, Stuart N. Lake is NOT the source to use in any way.

Earp isn't necessarily a reliable source, either. He had a very vested interest by that time of his life in improving on history and his role in it. It is very likely that the actual details of the OK Corral, and the events leading up to it, will never be accurately known.

Tombstone is just as loose with the history as any other movie made about this event. It just happened to have better actors than many of them, and the best Doc Holiday they ever cast.

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

*sigh*

Great...........first I'm a chimp...........now I'm the guy that locks his own jail cell . Just call me "Cletus". ;)

Who's Aunt Bee and who's Opie?

That's 'Otis', I believe you're referring to there, Cletus. :D

[JeanneTGC]

Earp isn't necessarily a reliable source, either. He had a very vested interest by that time of his life in improving on history and his role in it. It is very likely that the actual details of the OK Corral, and the events leading up to it, will never be accurately known.

Tombstone is just as loose with the history as any other movie made about this event. It just happened to have better actors than many of them, and the best Doc Holiday they ever cast.
I have several books that a good friend has lent to me and one of my own, all detailing the events in Tombstone, using eye witnesses and newspaper accounts. For those interested in doing comparisons:

"When All Roads Led To Tombstone", by John Pleasant Gray
"Tombstone's Epitaph", by Douglas D. Martin
"Tombstone Myth and Legend", by Odie B. Faulk

[Vanatru]

That's 'Otis', I believe you're referring to there, Cletus. :D


Otis? The guy who made all the cookies?

[Jamesaritchie]

Earp isn't necessarily a reliable source, either. He had a very vested interest by that time of his life in improving on history and his role in it. It is very likely that the actual details of the OK Corral, and the events leading up to it, will never be accurately known.

Tombstone is just as loose with the history as any other movie made about this event. It just happened to have better actors than many of them, and the best Doc Holiday they ever cast.

The events leading to it may never be known, but Earp's account of the fight itself jibes perfectly with other, independent accounts, so I think he was truthful on this end. In this, at least, he had no reason to lie.

The events leading up to it, however, are certainly open to question.

[Popeyesays]

The 'Gunfight' is problematical at best. You can't even really walk the ground anymore, because the tourist version of the gunfight is off by some distance. Anyway, the gunfight in front of Fly's Photographicd Studio isn't anywhere as neat a name.

The atmosphere that led up to the shootout and the aftermath is an amazing story that has largely passed into myth.

I think the best portrayal of the gunfight is probably the mind's eye view presented by Earp as an older man in the Movie "Sunset" with Jim Garner as Wyattt Earp and Bruce Willis as the movie star Tom Mix.

Earp is brought in as a technical advisor. He watches the Hollywood version while the real gun fight goes on in his head. The head version is men standing up to one another with pistols presented at arm's length and not much concern with fast draw dramatics.

Earp and his brothers don't even seem to have worn holster rigs, but rather simply put a revolver in each coat pocket--which was the custom in those days for in town behavior. Holsters were for wearing when travelling in the rough, in those days coat pockets were leather-lined so a man could heel himself and not tear holes in his clothing..

There really isn't much truth to men facing each other in the streets and drawing pistols on each other. Rarely happened at all. These were hard men and the drama was not what was on their minds that day. They met for no other reason than to kill each other, and proceeded to the task in a workmanlike fashion. The whole thing probably lasted thirty seconds tops.

Regards,
Scott

[Vanatru]

They met for no other reason than to kill each other, and proceeded to the task in a workmanlike fashion. The whole thing probably lasted thirty seconds tops.

Regards,
Scott

I've enjoyed your posts in the various forums........but I guess asking you out for coffee or drinks could be fatal for me. :)

"So, Scott. You've had some very insightful posts............is that a six shooter? Ah, well I wasn't planning on a shootout. No, really, I just wanted to shoot the bull with.......not shoot it out. I don't have a choice? Oh crap."

[Popeyesays]

I've enjoyed your posts in the various forums........but I guess asking you out for coffee or drinks could be fatal for me. :)

"So, Scott. You've had some very insightful posts............is that a six shooter? Ah, well I wasn't planning on a shootout. No, really, I just wanted to shoot the bull with.......not shoot it out. I don't have a choice? Oh crap."

Despite being raised in El Paso, Texas and living in Billy the Kid country for years--then moving to Bisbee, Arizona (about a day's stage ride from Tombstone--Bisbee, there was a town with REAL hair on it!) I do not even own a pistol. So you're safe.

El Paso- John Wesley Hardin died there, when Dallas Stoudenmire (town marshall) stepped up behind him in a saloon and shot him in the back. Stoudenmire claimed that Hardin could see him in the mirror over the bar. The coroner inquest ruled that shooting Hardin in the back was just discretion. pat Garret spent the last ofhis law enforcement life there as Chief Customs agent at the Juarez crossing. He died a few miles north of El Paso in a dispute over some a ranch he had sold to a local cattle rancher.

Billy the Kid country is Lincoln and Dona Anta county New Mexico. The Lincoln Range War took place there.

Regards,
Scott

[Bmwhtly]

My problem with this movie is that I sincerely doubt any movie, in any genre, has ever been as historically inaccurate. I expect historical inaccuracies, but the one with Victor Mature got every last detail wrong except the names of the characters. Not a single thing was correct in that movie. Nothing. And Doc Holiday gets killed in the fight? I mean, how can anyone write a script where this happens?

Really, from the opening on, not a single thing was accurate, or even remotely so.
So?
It's entertainment, not a documentary. I doubt people thought it was supposed to be accurate.

[Jamesaritchie]

So?
It's entertainment, not a documentary. I doubt people thought it was supposed to be accurate.

If all they wanted was entertainment, they could have written a perfectly good western script with using Wyatt Earp and the whole story.

A little inaccuracy I understand, but I have higher standards for entertainment than this.

[JeanneTGC]

I vote with JAR on this one. If you're going to use a real person/s then have the decency to get a couple of facts straight. Otherwise, create new characters and do as you will.

[dpaterso]

Heck, I'd be real surprised if anyone voted against keeping things as factual as possible.

But nobody rioted and burned the town back in 1946 or 1957. Either they knew less about Old West history then, if you can believe that, or else they just accepted it as good old-fashioned entertainment. I can't get all heated up about something that previous generations allowed to slip by without reaching for their torches and pitchforks.

-Derek

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

Otis? The guy who made all the cookies?

Cookies? What cookies?

Otis was the town drunk who always dragged himself in and locked himself in his favorite cell.

[Cav Guy]

Heck, I'd be real surprised if anyone voted against keeping things as factual as possible.

But nobody rioted and burned the town back in 1946 or 1957. Either they knew less about Old West history then, if you can believe that, or else they just accepted it as good old-fashioned entertainment. I can't get all heated up about something that previous generations allowed to slip by without reaching for their torches and pitchforks.

-Derek
I agree to an extent, but for different reasons.

Nothing gets me more riled up than a movie that claims it's "accurate" or "based on a true story." This wasn't an especially common claim back then, but it certainly is now. Plus, I would also hazard a guess that more folks back "in the day" knew the difference between movies (entertainment) and actual history. Now there are too many people out there who assume that if it's in a movie it must therefore be true. Geronimo (or whatever that Turner miscarriage of a movie was called) is a case in point for me, but there are others as well.

And as an aside, it wasn't Stoudenmire who shot Hardin. It was John Selman in 1895.

[Popeyesays]

You're right Stoudenmire had died about ten years earlier. My bad--Selman had never been more than a constable in El Paso.

Selman only outlived Hardin by about eight months. A friendof the Texas Ranger who'd been killed by Selman got into a street argument with John Selman and shot him four times. The man who killed Selman was US Marshall George Scarborough who was acquitted in the matter since Selman had pulled a gun first.

El Paso was nearly as rough a town as San Fransisco's Barbary Coast and the old town of Los Angeles. Both the California towns were a lot rougher than Tombstone. It was a rare morning that one didn't find a couple dead bodies in the streets and alleys of the California cities.

Regards,
Scott

[Vanatru]

Cookies? What cookies?

Otis was the town drunk who always dragged himself in and locked himself in his favorite cell.

Mr. Spunkmeyer. Sheeeesh. You kids these days.

Your thinking of Cletus......the jolly old town drunk.

[dpaterso]

Nothing gets me more riled up than a movie that claims it's "accurate" or "based on a true story." This wasn't an especially common claim back then, but it certainly is now.
Well sure, that's a legit complaint, tho' "based on" grants the filmmaker a lot of flexibility as you will appreciate.

Plus, I would also hazard a guess that more folks back "in the day" knew the difference between movies (entertainment) and actual history. Now there are too many people out there who assume that if it's in a movie it must therefore be true.
Can't argue with that, but it's certainly not my take on movies, how can ya trust people who tell lies for a living? :)

Geronimo (or whatever that Turner miscarriage of a movie was called) is a case in point for me, but there are others as well.
Which one? Or is there another I've missed?
Geronimo (1939) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0031365/) - Chief Thundercloud
Geronimo (1962) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056016/) - Chuck Connors
Geronimo: An American Legend (1993) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107004/) - Wes Studi

On a related note perhaps. The other day 7th Cavalry (1956) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049745/) showed on afternoon TV. Ah what the heck, I like those one-expression Randolph Scott films. :) The online TV guide linked to imdb.com among whose info I noticed:
Factual errors: When the troops present arms at the flag-raising at the beginning of the film, the soldier closest to the camera has a Remington Rolling-Block rifle, probably standing in for a Springfield Trapdoor carbine, with which the cavalry of 1876 was actually equipped. The Remington, though popular with the armies of many other nations, was never adopted in any form by the US military.
I thought it was kinda funny that someone with an eagle eye would notice this but not bother mentioning the dramatic liberties taken by the story.

Tell me something, 'cause you might know the answer, did an unarmed Wyatt Earp actually throw a pool ball at a gunslinger (Ed Ross, it says in the film credits) who was fixing to drill him, and knock the gunslinger unconscious so he could take his gun? That scene took me right out of Costner's historically accurate Wyatt Earp. But maybe it's true!

-Derek

[Axler]

I'm sort of surprised no one has mentioned James Garner's first turn as Wyatt Earp, in Hour of the Gun...the movie began with the gunfight at the OK Corral and then became the basic template for Tombstone.

When I saw Sunset, I remember thinking it was a shame that the film-makers weren't able to splice in clips of the shootout from Hour of the Gun as Wyatt's flashbacks.

Withal, Hour is a pretty good film, directed by John Sturges with a memorable musical score provided by Jerry Goldsmith.

It shows up on TCM about once a month, seems like.

http://www.gorila.sk/i/imgs_orig/031/14031.jpg

[JeanneTGC]

I blush to admit that I've never seen this movie, and I don't think I've heard of it either. And I love James Garner!

How historically accurate/inaccurate is it? As in, will I writhe and scream with agony or be able to ignore the incosistencies with reality?

[Axler]

Welllll....

I'd say Hour of the Gun falls somewhere between Wyatt Earp and Tombstone as far as historical accuracy goes.

Certainly it's hews closer to the record than Sturges's own Gunfight at the OK Corral (early in the film, there's an inquest scene which utilizes actual testimony), but there's nothing about Josie Marcus being one of the reasons behind the animosity between Wyatt and Johnny Behan (renamed Jimmy Bryan, for some inexplicable reason) and the Virgil/Morgan injuries are presented in reverse order, if I'm recalling correctly.

However, James Garner and Jason Robards are a believable pairing as Wyatt and Doc. Robert Ryan is a much more sophisticated Ike Clanton than was ever portrayed on film...the polar opposite of Stephen Lang's dirty little drunkard from Tombstone.

Jon Voigt had a small role as Curly Bill Brocius.

It's definitely worth seeing, if only for the performances by James Garner and Jason Robards and to hear the great musical score by Jerry Goldsmith.

[dub]

It's definitely worth seeing, if only for the performances by James Garner and Jason Robards and to hear the great musical score by Jerry Goldsmith.

You wrote what I was thinking...absolutely right.

[Axler]

You're in luck, Jeanne...Hour of the Gun will be aired on TCM this Saturday, May 19, at 6PM. Here's a link to the TCM page about the film:

http://www.tcm.com/thismonth/article/?cid=74645

[Vanatru]

Came across this in my pursuit of info pertaining to the thread origin. :)

Curly Bill Brocius Historical Page
http://members.tripod.com/~Tombstonehistory/cbindex.html

and from Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curly_Bill_Brocius

Fascinating stuff. One of the many times I wish a "way-back" machine where handy to check this stuff out.

Still wondering what kinda name Brocius is........sounds odd.

[JeanneTGC]

Well, if it wasn't made up, it has a sort of French ring to it. Just guessing, I have no idea if it's a real name or not, or if it was Curly Bill's real name or his alias. (I mean in real life. I my books, then I know. ;) )

[Bmwhtly]

If all they wanted was entertainment, they could have written a perfectly good western script with using Wyatt Earp and the whole story.It occured to me when I was watching this last night that the film has an epic feel to it. Deliberately.
Now, I don't think that would have been as easy to achieve if they'd used fictional characters. By using Wyatt, his brothers and Doc Holliday in Tombstone, their work is half-done.
Not that I condone it, the thought just occured.

Anyway, I have another Tombstone Question. Does anyone know what Ringo and Doc said in Latin?

[dpaterso]

Anyway, I have another Tombstone Question. Does anyone know what Ringo and Doc said in Latin?
Alas I've no idea; maybe it's in the script (http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Tombstone.html)?

Aha, check out the memorable quotes on imdb.com: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108358/quotes

-Derek

[Bmwhtly]

Alas I've no idea; maybe it's in the script (http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Tombstone.html)?

Aha, check out the memorable quotes on imdb.com: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108358/quotes

-Derek
That thought occured. However, my company's Nanny Software think IMDB and IMSDB is "Tasteless"

Plus, I was curious to see if anyone knew off the top of their heads.

[dpaterso]

OK then, off the top of my head:

Doc Holliday: In Vino Veritas.
[In wine is truth. - Meaning - "When I'm drinking, I speak my mind."]
Johnny Ringo: Age Quod Agis.
[Do what you do. - Meaning - "Do what you do best."]
Doc Holliday: Credat Judaeus Apella, Non Ego. The Jew Apella may believe it, not I.
[Meaning, "Oh I don't believe drinking is what I do best."]
Johnny Ringo: Eventus Stultorum Magister.
[Events are the teachers of fools. - Meaning - "Fools have to learn by experience."]
Doc Holliday: In Pace Requiescat.
[Rest In Peace - Meaning - "It's Your Funeral!"]

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. :)

If I'd written the script... with all respect to the author... I'd have found an easier way to show that Ringo's an educated man. Edit: I take that back, the scene works perfectly. Carry on.

-Derek

[dclary]

What do you think, darlin'? Should I hate him?

[dclary]

Came across this in my pursuit of info pertaining to the thread origin. :)

Curly Bill Brocius Historical Page
http://members.tripod.com/~Tombstonehistory/cbindex.html

and from Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curly_Bill_Brocius

Fascinating stuff. One of the many times I wish a "way-back" machine where handy to check this stuff out.

Still wondering what kinda name Brocius is........sounds odd.


From Genealogy.com it looks like the Brocius line was in PA as early as the 1750s, and probably came from Germany. Alternate spelling includes Brosius.

[JeanneTGC]

What do you think, darlin'? Should I hate him?
Oh, how I love that line! (And you did it so well, too, D!)

[Cav Guy]

I'd be hard-pressed to think of any of his lines that I DIDN'T like.

[JeanneTGC]

I'd be hard-pressed to think of any of his lines that I DIDN'T like.
I know, he was da BOMB!

BTW, Bob Boze Bell sells mousepads with Val Kilmer as Doc on it (artist's rendering, not a movie still) with the line, "I'm your huckleberry." I think they're $10. If anyone wants the link to the True West merchandise site, let me know.

(Yes, I have the mousepad. It's the best.)

[dclary]

I know, he was da BOMB!

BTW, Bob Boze Bell sells mousepads with Val Kilmer as Doc on it (artist's rendering, not a movie still) with the line, "I'm your huckleberry." I think they're $10. If anyone wants the link to the True West merchandise site, let me know.

(Yes, I have the mousepad. It's the best.)

Speaking of cool stuff... They used to have custom checks with the Star Wars theme on it, you know, like a Han Solo and Chewy background on one, X-wings flying to the Death Star in another, etc.

And you could put a custom message between the money line and the memo.

My checks (which I used exclusively to pay bills" all read "Tell Jabba I have his money."

[JeanneTGC]

Speaking of cool stuff... They used to have custom checks with the Star Wars theme on it, you know, like a Han Solo and Chewy background on one, X-wings flying to the Death Star in another, etc.

And you could put a custom message between the money line and the memo.

My checks (which I used exclusively to pay bills" all read "Tell Jabba I have his money."
OMG, that's PRICELESS!

[Vanatru]

I'll have to try and remember that if I ever get another traffic ticket.

[Bmwhtly]

My checks (which I used exclusively to pay bills) all read "Tell Jabba I have his money."Rather like making an appointment with your Bank Manager:

"Well sir, we could fit you in at 12 tomorrow. If that's convenient?"

"Fine, you tell 'em I'm coming and hell's coming with me"

[lastlight]

Why Jonny Tyler, where you goin' with that shotgun?

(read signature for further quotes)

[HarryHoskins]

With a name like Tombstone, I'm figuring a little bit of necromancy might not be out of order -- and besides, there's so much good conversation, information, quotes and film recommendations in this thread I thunk it better to post here than start a new'n. :)

Just re-watched this last night and was a little disappointed because, although it had some really great moments, it was all a bit cobbled together and lightweight. Have got Wyatt Earp lined up for comparison, but, at three hours plus, I gots to find some time for it.

So, anyone got anymore thoughts on either film?

One thing struck me right between the eyes though ...

The late Heath Ledger surely based his Joker on Val Kilmer's Doc Holliday -- am I right?

_________________________

Edit to add:

Oh, and P.s -- Hows about creating a couple of film and book of the month discussion threads?

[BigWords]

The late Heath Ledger surely based his Joker on Val Kilmer's Doc Holliday -- am I right?

Debatable - I think he was channeling Joe Pesci (circa GoodFellas) for some of the scenes.

This thread has reminded me that I should spend more time in the Western forum. :D

[HarryHoskins]

Debatable - I think he was channeling Joe Pesci (circa GoodFellas) for some of the scenes.

Now that I'm having a hard time seeing -- But then again, the hair trigger temper does ring a bell. :)

_________________________

Revisiting my self made promise of a previous post, I watched the first half of Wyatt Earp last night -- you know, the whole 190 minutes in one go is quite a task -- and wasn't sure what to make of it in comparison with its chronological companion piece, Tombstone.

The first thing that struck me was Costner. Yup, Costner between the eyes. I have a bit of a soft spot for the feller, but, dagnabbit, the soft focus, innocent eyes and sellotaped skin was somewhat off-putting even in a character piece like this where our man has to play young to old.

Still, I sort of enjoyed it and did notice a there was a useful comparison of the films to be made by employing stereotypical British Broadcasting Company tropes.*

Tombstone was muchos ITV -- and ITV at its worst, all blood and guts and (save for some brilliant scenery chewing and great dialogue) short attention spans.

On the other hand (or should that be channel) Wyatt Earp was BBC at its very worst (all morals and costume and sincerity).

So far I am split. Perhaps the second part of Wyatt Earp will win me over, but at the moment I want a film with the excitement of Tombstone and the sincerity of Wyatt Earp.

Can't filmmakers find a smart mix, goddammit? :)

*Probably easily transfered to US TV with an FOX vs HBO [with a moral heart] split.

[HarryHoskins]

Watched the second half of Wyatt Earp today.

Much preferred it to the first half, though I did find myself wondering how much the the set up had to do with it. Either way, I think my scales tip in favour of Wyatt Earp rather than Tombstone. Though saying that, maybe I enjoyed the latter more consistently throughout.

Either way, I'm figuring a western film discussion thread would be a good thing and will start one when next I watch a Western. :)

[FOTSGreg]

I find myself mildly amsed and somewhat surprised that someone even mentioned James Garner in "Hour Of The Gun". For many years it was one of the most obscure movies about The Gunfight I'd ever seen. I'm glad to see it's been resurrected on TCM, which I, unfortunately, cannot get right now.

According to some sources I'd seen many years ago it was supposed to have been the most accurate representation of The Gunfight up until the Wyatt Earp/Tombstone movies and beyond.