Never Start with Dialogue

[AnneMarble]

I recently bought a book on how to write a good opening (Hooked by Les Edgerton). It seems to have some good advice. (I only skimmed it so far, so I could be wrong. :D) On the other hand, it also has a short list of "Never open with..." rules.

One is the old "Never start with a dream" rule. I'm ignoring that one in my novel because while it starts with a dream, the reader knows it's a dream, and it's over quickly. It establishes that the character suffers from horrid nightmares because of a battle. I'm keeping it, so there.
:wag:

But then there's the "Never start with dialogue" rule. Is this one for real?! Do people really believe this? Is this really a problem? Gah.

Maybe I should give up on "how to write" books. Sigh.

[Cath]

Just write the book.

Yes, I agree with the dream thing, but only because it's been done so often and so badly that it's become a cliche. But I've never been put off a book because it starts with dialog - as long as it's good, fluent and hooks me into the rest of the story.

[Devil Ledbetter]

I think of starting the first lines of the first chapter with dialogue alone is kind of like a movie that begins with a blank screen and all you hear are characters' voices. If that's what works best for what you're trying to achieve, do it. But think about how long voices alone could hold your interest when you're expecting a movie. What they're saying will have to be absolutely riveting.

[ccarver30]

My novel starts with my main character swearing. :tongue

[ccarver30]

Just write the book.

Yes, I agree with the dream thing, but only because it's been done so often and so badly that it's become a cliche. But I've never been put off a book because it starts with dialog - as long as it's good, fluent and hooks me into the rest of the story.

Agree!! :)

[CaroGirl]

You can do anything, it just has to work. Whether it works or not is up to the discretion of readers.

[Maryn]

I'm not a big fan of hard-and-fast rules for writing fiction. They seem intended for the beginning writer likely to stumble over his or her own feet as they learn how it's done, because they're not likely to execute the unconventional approach--starting with a dream, or with dialogue--well.

I flatter myself by assuming they're directing such advice at lesser writers than me.

Or trying to sell books.

Maryn, who bristles when told she can't do something as a writer

[Neeli]

Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card begins with talking heads--no reference to who they are or where they are for about half a page or so. And it won a Nebula. Not that all Nebula winners are great examples of how to write, sometimes they just tell a heck of a story.

In general dreams are a bad way to start a novel, even if the reader knows it's not real, because a reader wants to know what IS real. The things that aren't real aren't really a threat, are they? Not that you couldn't make it work. Go for it, and come back for feedback.

Dialog on the other hand can open a story better because it is technically action. You can intersperse a lot of information inbetween the actual spoken lines, and the words used characterize so well. But I think it is correct to say that most novels open with something other than dialog.

[JanDarby]

Think of rules like this as shorthand. Experts shorten the real advice, because it's too long, and would go something like:

If you start with bare dialogue, there are some risks, which include confusing the reader b/c she doesn't know who's speaking or where or when or why, and not engaging the reader b/c there's no context to the statement (e.g., a bold statement by a shy, reclusive person is more shocking than a bold statement by a gregarious peron), and the dialogue may not have the intended effect if we don't know the speaking character yet ("I'm going to die" has far more impact if your best friend says it, than if a stranger says it).

There's one other problem with starting with dialogue that I've seen, and is even more complicated to explain. A lot of writers start with something hugely catchy and dramatic (either in dialogue or narrative, but more often in narrative), like "I'm going to die a horrible, gruesome death," so-and-so said. Which sets the stakes for the book so high that it's hard to imagine the tension getting any higher, so the whole book is a letdown. Or, another variation on starting with such a high point, we find out, a few sentences later, that she's a drama queen, and all she has is a zit, and it irritates the bejeebers out of the reader, and she may well throw the book at a wall. If you can live up to that over-the-top beginning, and the pacing really can rise from the point, you're good to go. If not, start with something you can build on.

The bottom line is that starting with dialogue is risky (for the reasons above, and probably a dozen more that I can't think of, b/c it's still morning), and lots and lots and LOTS of people are inclined to start with dialogue without considering and dealing with the downsides to it, so critiquers see it a lot, and develop a shorthand response, which is: Don't start with dialogue.

On the other hand, another shorthand could be: don't start with narrative (in the sense of geography and weather and transportation). Which would have kernels of truth to it, while being an over-simplification.

The rules are only shorthand. The key is understanding the reasoning behind them, which generally relates to the risks of a given technique and the prevalence of abuse of the technique.

JD

[JanDarby]

Oh, and another problem with dreams, when the reader knows it's a dream, is that there's no conflict. There's no stakes, no chance the bad guy in the dream will actually kill her, so there's no tension. No tension = reader puts down the book.

You don't need to show the dream in detail to show that the protagonist is having bad dreams. In fact, it's probably more effective to show it in other ways, with her sleepy or resisting falling asleep or catching a glimpse of something that was in her dream and shuddering, or telling someone why she's sleepy/scared/etc. It's not the dream itself that matters; it's the effect on the character, and how she handles it (brave, scared, hopeless, feisty, take-charge, whatever) that matters.

JD

[Elektra]

So THAT'S what I've been doing wrong...

[maestrowork]

When someone says "Never do..." I try to ignore them. ;)

There are many good books that open with dialogue. If you do it well, nothing is forbidden.

[MMWyrm]

I agree with the others here - if it works, do it!

[Azure Skye]

Just about every "never do" rule has been broken at least once in the books I've read. Granted, some of them made my eyes bleed but others I barely noticed. So, it's beginning to sink in: if you're going to do it, make it work. That's the bottom line.

[Novelust]

Opening with dialogue? Ha! That's nothing. I'm opening with the MC waking up.

(I laugh in the face of danger. And, apparently, good sense.)

[seun]

Can I just say (a naughty word approaching...)




Fuck the rules. There's nothing wrong with guidelines or suggestions but I'm getting very bored of being told exactly how we should write. Agreed that opening with a dream can be cliched but then so can opening with a murder, explosion or a description of the weather. If you do it well, what's the problem with starting a book with dialogue?

[Popeyesays]

When someone says "Never do..." I try to ignore them. ;)

There are many good books that open with dialogue. If you do it well, nothing is forbidden.


"Call me Ishmael." It's not in quotes in Moby Dick, but it is dialogue from the narrator to the reader.

Regards,
Scott

[Will Lavender]

I'm going to open my next book with my main character speaking to someone in a dream.

[AnneMarble]

Oh, and another problem with dreams, when the reader knows it's a dream, is that there's no conflict. There's no stakes, no chance the bad guy in the dream will actually kill her, so there's no tension. No tension = reader puts down the book.
That's true. It's a short paragraph, though. :D I don't go into many details except that he sees a former boyfriend die in battle (beheaded). I wanted to mention that as the ghost of the former lover shows up in a few paragraphs, carrying his head.

Somehow this smiley seems appropriate:
:poke:

You don't need to show the dream in detail to show that the protagonist is having bad dreams. In fact, it's probably more effective to show it in other ways, with her sleepy or resisting falling asleep or catching a glimpse of something that was in her dream and shuddering, or telling someone why she's sleepy/scared/etc. It's not the dream itself that matters; it's the effect on the character, and how she handles it (brave, scared, hopeless, feisty, take-charge, whatever) that matters.
Or in the case of Brodin, he wakes up holding the dagger he just pulled out from under his bed. Not that the dagger will play an important part in the novel. Oh noooo, what ever gave you that idea? ;)

[Sassenach]

"Christmas won't be Christmas without presents."

--Little Women [140 years old and still popular]

[Kristin Landon]

I agree that rules are often broken, and effectively. But I think there's a good point behind "never start with dialogue"—to hook the reader, you need to establish where your characters are, what they're doing, at least a little bit about setting and time of day; otherwise, as Devil Ledbetter said above, it's like a movie with a blank screen.

At the very least I'd say that if the first line is dialogue, it's better if the second is not. I'd apply that to scenes, too, unless we're returning to a discussion already in progress and know where the characters are and what the situation is.

As a reader, I don't like dangling in space. I can't start forming mental images of the action, and it frustrates me. Now that may be an effect worth creating deliberately, sometimes. But it may not be the best thing to do in commercial fiction, where the first paragraph might determine the sale.

[Just Me 2021]

I start my novel with dialog, and I love my opening, so there. <Giving the finger to the author of whatever writing book tells me I can't do this.>

I think I'm going to start my next book with people talking to one another in a boring, weird, disjointed, nonsensical dream, then waking up when the phone rings at 3 A.M. as a stranger tells my protagonist know someone has died, and I won't explain how the person who has died is at all related to my protagonist.

Ha, ha! Can any of you top THAT breaking of all the rules??????

[DeadlyAccurate]

I love it when a book starts with dialog. If I'd seen that "Never" in the book, I'd probably suspect the rest of the advice was equally worthless and toss it aside.

[tjwriter]

That is an odd rule, as I've seen so many great books start with dialogue.

But there are so many "rules" out there that are really just more like guidelines. I believe that UJ has mentioned several times in his Learn Writing thread that you should know the rules before you break. Of course, then you get hit with rules you've never heard of that you've already broken.

It all boils to down to the last bit about it working for your story. If it works for your story, no reason to rock the boat.

[Nakhlasmoke]

The rules are good for writers just beginning to learn their craft. Someone who has spent many years working on their abilities as a writer knows when and how to break rules.

It's a bit of a generalization, but it seems to hold true.

[James D. Macdonald]

Never start with dialogue -- unless it works.

[Azure Skye]

But there are so many "rules" out there that are really just more like guidelines.


"Hang the code, and hang the rules. They're more like guidelines anyway." From Pirates of the Caribbean.

Teehee

[ChunkyC]

It's the word 'never' in that so-called rule that's off-putting. And remember, this is only one writer's opinion: the writer who wrote that particular how-to book. You can always search Amazon or Barnes & Noble etc. to see what a how-to author has published in the field for which he or she is giving advice. That can help you decide how much stock to put in what they're espousing.

The only things I consider hard and fast rules are those I hear over and over again from a myriad of sources, such as; "Follow the submission guidelines." Until a certain piece of advice carries that sort of weight behind it, it will remain only advice for me.

[Rob B]

If what he has written was not taken out of context, remind me to never buy a book by whomever Les Edgerton might be. The remark on dialogue makes no sense whatsoever, unless there is something he was trying to develop related to a nuance of a specific style where entry dialogue wouldn't work well.

If this wasn't the case, I'd take the book to where you bought and try to get your money back. There is a lot of crap published by purported experts and it is unfortunate, if not tragic, that unwary writers can be influenced by this stuff.

Related to style, even with the legitimate experts, it is important to keep in mind that a vast portion of the information they impart is likely to be that writer's opinion.

And even the best have their "moments." If you look at the recent book by Noah Lukeman (someone I happen to respect), you will probably find issues. The same with Jacques Barzun or William Zinsser, who forgot more about writing than I'll ever know, and I study form and structure assiduously.

As others have said, write how you want to, and your style will be reflective of your talent. When you've finished, you'll know by criticism if it worked or if it needs to be tweaked for whatever reason. Good Luck and I hope you find this advice practical.

[Toothpaste]

Hey when I was younger and reading YA, I always preferred the books that started with dialogue.

Just do whatever.

[scarletpeaches]

There's one author I can think of who always starts with dialogue and it's way past tired now.

Her first line is always something like, "My God! I can't believe you did that!" or "What the hell do you think you're doing?" and it just seems contrived to me, like a cheap shot to get the reader interested. It's never worked with me; I've never managed to finish any of her books, despite numerous attempts.

[NeuroFizz]

I agree with most posts concerning an over-emphasis on writing "rules." However, I don't think it's wise to dismiss them with a raised middle finger either. There are reasons why these "rules" were written down, particularly if more than one seasoned writer forwards them in how-to books. Yes, dismiss them if you want to, but first it might be a good idea to do a little research into why the "rule" came about. It probably means, as others have suggested, that too many people screw it up to where that particular literary approach fails in its intended goal more often than it succeeds. Uncle Jim's "if it works" proviso is critical in that regard. Before going with opening dialogue, use that middle finger to trace the words of successful books where opening dialogue is used effectively. Then, have fellow writers help evaluate your use to see if it works for them.

Remember, agents and editors are experienced in this business. They likely have good eyes for what works and what doesn't work in a story opening. With their load of queries, they may not get much beyond your opening paragraph or two, particularly if you give them even the slightest reason to stop reading.

[James D. Macdonald]

"Never start with dialog" sounds a lot like "I should never start with dialog."

[AnneMarble]

"Christmas won't be Christmas without presents."

--Little Women [140 years old and still popular]
And that's a great one because it tells you so much about the characters right away, and gets you to ask questions. OK, we know they celebrate Christmas, so they're probably a family. But why aren't they having presents? Are they poor? Is one parent suddenly angry at Christmas? Did someone break in and steal the gifts?

That line of dialogue definitely works.

[maestrowork]

Not really a dialogue, but close... Mrs. Dalloway:

"Mrs. Dalloway said she would buy the flowers herself."

[Kristin Landon]

Little Women opens with dialogue, yes, but there is more even to that first sentence: ". . . grumbled Jo, lying on the rug." So we learn that "Jo," with a name that would have seemed unusual at the time, is lying on the rug (also unusual for a girl) and is a grumbler.

Next line: "It's so dreadful to be poor!" sighed Meg, looking down at her old dress.

Next: "I don't think it's fair for some girls to have plenty of pretty things and others nothing at all," added little Amy, with an injured sniff.

Finally, Beth chimes in: "We've got father and mother and each other," said Beth contentedly, from her corner.

So, dialog in an opening, but it doesn't hang in space; it's four sisters, at home, in a poor family near Christmas. The era doesn't need to be set because it was contemporary at the time the book was written, so many other details would have instantly been obvious to readers. The parts outside the dialog also give us the first hints about these four girls' characters.

Done like this, dialog works fine. But I've seen stories that opened with half a page of unattributed dialog in a setting I couldn't place; I've heard writers say they do that "to create an air of mystery." Permanent mystery, I think; I'd simply stop reading.

[Devil Ledbetter]

Done like this, dialog works fine. But I've seen stories that opened with half a page of unattributed dialog in a setting I couldn't place; I've heard writers say they do that "to create an air of mystery." Permanent mystery, I think; I'd simply stop reading.I agree.

[AnneMarble]

Yes, I agree with the dream thing, but only because it's been done so often and so badly that it's become a cliche...
I started a book recently, and set it down quickly because it started with a dream. But I thought it was also a really annoying case. The reader was treated to two or three pages as the heroine and her brother enjoyed a lovely birthday. Then suddenly the heroine wakes up, and she realizes it was all a dream -- because her brother and parents died several days ago. Aargh! I would never do that to a reader.
:rant:

I'm not a big fan of hard-and-fast rules for writing fiction. They seem intended for the beginning writer likely to stumble over his or her own feet as they learn how it's done, because they're not likely to execute the unconventional approach--starting with a dream, or with dialogue--well.
I agree. I'd much rather have a book say "Don't do this, but here's why, and you can make it work..." Especially as some of those rules get really bizarre and picky.

In general dreams are a bad way to start a novel, even if the reader knows it's not real, because a reader wants to know what IS real. The things that aren't real aren't really a threat, are they? Not that you couldn't make it work. Go for it, and come back for feedback.

I might post it somewhere after I've shaved out all the annoying repeated words. (My characters turn a lot. :D) That way, people can tell me how annoying it is. ;)

[cynicalkane]

"So what's it going to be, then, eh?" hangs in space every time it's used in A Clockwork Orange, if I recall. It opens each seven-chapter part as well as the final chapter.

Also recall that War and Peace, supposedly the greatest epic, opens with dialogue. Ender's Game opens with a lengthy section of unattributed dialogue in no setting at all. It works because they're talking about something interesting.

[DVGuru]

I've been reading The Road by Cormac McCarthy. His writing breaks plenty of rules, particularly with punctuation (or lack thereof) and it just won a Pulitzer.

Do what you feel works for your story. Whether you start with dialogue, a dream sequence, or a person getting hacked to pieces--some readers will like it, others won't. Nothing you, me, or any other writer can do about it. People have their own opinions, and writing is subjective, so as writers all we can do put down on paper what we feel is right for our stories and hope someone out there likes it.

[AnneMarble]

I think I'm going to start my next book with people talking to one another in a boring, weird, disjointed, nonsensical dream, then waking up when the phone rings at 3 A.M. as a stranger tells my protagonist know someone has died, and I won't explain how the person who has died is at all related to my protagonist.

Ha, ha! Can any of you top THAT breaking of all the rules??????
Don't forget "And then there was a knock at the door" and a description of the weather. :D

[thethinker42]

But then there's the "Never start with dialogue" rule. Is this one for real?! Do people really believe this? Is this really a problem? Gah.

Say what??? I start some stories with dialogue. Sometimes it's the best way to hook the reader!!

Maybe I should give up on "how to write" books. Sigh.

I did. I still have a few, and they're good for pointers now and then, but I don't take everything they say as gospel.

[thethinker42]

My novel starts with my main character swearing. :tongue

My current novel begins with arterial spray. :D

It's one of the rare stories I don't open with dialogue...and I do have one that starts with "F---!"

[seun]

I agree with most posts concerning an over-emphasis on writing "rules." However, I don't think it's wise to dismiss them with a raised middle finger either.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying we should all ignore all advice along these lines. I just get a bit cheesed with hearing advice given as a hard rule. I think it's just as easy to start a book badly with a conversation as it would be without one.

[AnneMarble]

...Remember, agents and editors are experienced in this business. They likely have good eyes for what works and what doesn't work in a story opening. With their load of queries, they may not get much beyond your opening paragraph or two, particularly if you give them even the slightest reason to stop reading.
Good point. Just my luck, my first page might end up in front of an editor who had vowed "If I see one more novel starting with a dream, I'm gonna reject it right away." And it is likely that as soon as they see the dream, they will roll their eyes and say "Not another dream." They might go on to the next paragraph, or not.

I'd better make sure I call it a "nightmare" instead. ;) (Sorry, couldn't resist. :D)

[ChunkyC]

...Remember, agents and editors are experienced in this business. They likely have good eyes for what works and what doesn't work in a story opening. With their load of queries, they may not get much beyond your opening paragraph or two, particularly if you give them even the slightest reason to stop reading.
"As you know, Bob, it was a dark and stormy night," he said, then woke up.

[janetbellinger]

My only rule is never pay attention to writing rules, but I don't even obey that one. lol. Of course the key to this rule is in what James said: "unless it works." And of course everything has to work and if it doesn't it shouldn't be there in the novel.

[Rich]

Never start a story with a boring first line.

Never start a story with a boring first paragraph.

Never end a story with a boring last line.

Never write a boring story.


That's all ye need to know.

[herdon]

"As you know, Bob, it was a dark and stormy night," he said, then woke up.

Hehe, I was just going to post that the best opening would be someone saying it was a dark and stormy night. Dangit, why'd you beat me to it?

[ccarver30]

My current novel begins with arterial spray. :D

It's one of the rare stories I don't open with dialogue...and I do have one that starts with "F---!"

LMAO!
As you can tell by my location, mine has to start with a "Bloody hell!" LOL

[infinitus_kaze]

I don't like it when people try to set writing rules that tell you to "never" or "always" do something. I think that a person should write the way they want. Sometimes starting a novel with dialogue or a dream is a good thing; other times not. It depends on what you are trying to express in the opening of the novel.

No writer should ever try to act like they are the only authority on any subject because it simply isn't true and makes the writer seem pompous and arrogant. I only have one always and one never rule that I follow when writing:

Always write the way you want; if you find your story interesting, others will too.
Never write something a certain way just because someone tells you to or in order to conform to someone elses writing style.

Those two rules help to express individuality, at least for me; even in a world in which plotlines and character types are constantly being regurgitated I can always express individuality by writing in my own style and not conforming to another writer's style.

[tjwriter]

Hmm, I have a novel that's partially finished that opens with weather.

My protagonist is watching sheets of rain come down as she's waiting for her uncle who is late. Of course she worries quite a bit, so it's her normal behavior to be staring at the rain and waiting. And the adventure stuff starts as soon as her uncle steps inside.

[Elektra]

Hmm, I have a novel that's partially finished that opens with weather.

My protagonist is watching sheets of rain come down as she's waiting for her uncle who is late. Of course she worries quite a bit, so it's her normal behavior to be staring at the rain and waiting. And the adventure stuff starts as soon as her uncle steps inside.


May I suggest, then, that you begin with the uncle stepping inside?

[Rich]

Hey, if it was a dark and stormy night, say so--only say something like, "Black clouds blocked the Moon's gentle nightlight. The thunder was still a murmering rumble, like a growling puma, approaching. Lightening was distant, and yet striking the woods with angry, piercing tentacles."

[licity-lieu]

I'm going to open my next book with my main character speaking to someone in a dream.

LOL. well...I'm going to have my MC in a dream, dreaming that they are waking up from a dream and telling the significant other about the dream and then lots of dialogue pertaining to how interesting the dream is and then...um...actually waking from the dream and going....'wow, what a dream'! That'll grab 'em by the short and curly's. :D

[McDuff]

"Never start with dialog" sounds a lot like "I should never start with dialog."
Not that I'm published or anything, but my two cents is that this is closer to the truth than anything. Writers are a mixed batch, with varying skills, and we should do what we do best. If you can write good, snappy, witty dialogue that really hooks the reader and socks them in the jaw, then stick that right up front by all means. If your dialogue is one of the weaker parts of your toolbox because you're a writer of gloriously painted epics, don't open with dialogue, open with one of those glorious landscapes that you're so good at.

Write what you're good at. Don't write what you're not good at.

[Jamesaritchie]

"Call me Ishmael." It's not in quotes in Moby Dick, but it is dialogue from the narrator to the reader.

Regards,
Scott

I'm not sure this is a good example. Since every line in a first person story is dialogue, it's impossible to open one any other way.

[ChunkyC]

Hmm, I have a novel that's partially finished that opens with weather.

My protagonist is watching sheets of rain come down as she's waiting for her uncle who is late. Of course she worries quite a bit, so it's her normal behavior to be staring at the rain and waiting. And the adventure stuff starts as soon as her uncle steps inside.
If that aspect of her personality is a crucial part of the story, then there's nothing wrong with starting it that way since you are setting up her character. The key there I think would be to make that resonate throughout the story. If you can give the reader a really good picture of who she is by the time her uncle arrives, then your scene has earned its keep.

[Dave.C.Robinson]

Whatever you do-- do it on purpose.

A lot of these rules exist to make you take a second look at why you're doing something. Break any rule you want, but not by accident.

[Tachyon]

The best opening I've ever seen to a novel was the first line of Douglas Coupland's JPod:
"I feel like I'm in a f--ing Douglas Coupland novel!"
Now, the reason it's my favourite is because I love how Coupland has written himself into the book with just the first line. :D But it's also an example of how an opening with dialogue can not only be effective, but hilarious and appropriately set the tone for the rest of the book.

[freshpencils]

Like "Four Weddings and a Funeral?" I think the first 6 of 7 words of dialogue in that movie are F***. (Worked for me!)

[cecibell]

Dialogue is a great way to start in the middle of the action to engage readers. My novel starts with dialogue.

Also, my new weekly online book series on my website starts with dialogue. See for yourself how it works - -be the judge.

[WildScribe]

I think of starting the first lines of the first chapter with dialogue alone is kind of like a movie that begins with a blank screen and all you hear are characters' voices. If that's what works best for what you're trying to achieve, do it. But think about how long voices alone could hold your interest when you're expecting a movie. What they're saying will have to be absolutely riveting.

Exactly so. If I start with dialog, we usually pick up mid argument or something fun like that.

[benbradley]

...
But then there's the "Never start with dialogue" rule.
OMG. Looks like my latest flash fiction piece is f***ed.

[bunnygirl]

A lot of these rules exist to make you take a second look at why you're doing something. Break any rule you want, but not by accident.

I think this gets at the crux of the matter.

I personally don't care for the very first sentence to be someone speaking. Second sentence, perhaps. Third, usually fine. But I find it jarring to be dropped right into a conversation between people I don't even know yet, especially if it's a tense moment with lots of shouting, which is how a lot of new writers like to open, thinking it's a good way to hook a reader. Instead, it feels like walking into the office on a Monday morning, all sleepy and still thinking about the weekend and the idiot who cut you off on the freeway five minutes ago, and not even having a chance to set your things down before someone is shouting at you, asking questions about some report or another from last Friday.

Huh? Can I at least set my purse down first, take my coat off, and maybe get a cup of coffee? :rant:

Opening with dialogue can be done well, and so can a lot of the other "don'ts" of writing. But IMO, anytime you run across a "don't" or a "never," think of it more like a warning. You're about to do something that is so often bungled that you should proceed with more than the usual caution.

And one final thing-- literary styles change. What's cliche today wasn't a hundred years ago and may not be a hundred years hence. If getting published is your overarching goal, pay no attention to how someone wrote in an earlier era. Find out what agents and publishers love right now and what turns them off right now. And above all else, write well. :)

[Anthony Ravenscroft]

What was it Granny Weatherwax said... something like, "When you break the rules, break 'em good and hard!"

Conversely, though: IMNSHO, anyone who cites some award-winning established authorial Elder in order to justify their first pitiable written-down squeeblings is clearly saying, "I'm a beginner! I'm clueless!"

It's a "well DUH" moment when citing what the rich &/or famous &/or powerful get away with -- which has less than zilch to say what the peasants can even validly imagine. I mean, just because most NASCAR drivers get through the season without meeting hot death, I don't get the idea I'm qualified to drive at 185 mph.

...but, clearly, some do.

[jules]

I've seen stories that opened with half a page of unattributed dialog in a setting I couldn't place; I've heard writers say they do that "to create an air of mystery." Permanent mystery, I think; I'd simply stop reading.

This is one of my favourite novel openings:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/reader/0349112452/ref=sib_dp_pt/203-0823220-3203911#reader-page

4 pages of unattributed dialogue with no actions to break it up. Then a paragraph of action and another half page of dialog; then another paragraph, and a couple more pages.

Read the first two pages (the first is only a half page, because of the graphics for the start of the chapter), then tell me if you want to stop reading.

[Shady Lane]

Unlike the dream rule, I scoff at this one. As long as you don't have talking heads for pages and pages, I can't see a problem with starting with dialouge.

[bunnygirl]

Read the first two pages (the first is only a half page, because of the graphics for the start of the chapter), then tell me if you want to stop reading.

It breaks at least two "rules" (don't start with someone waking up, don't start with dialogue), and probably several others. But it works.

For me, it works because it doesn't drop the reader into a deeply emotional or overwrought moment. Sure, the character is freaked out, but he's also still in a place of disbelief and confusion. He has a highly unusual problem and he's trying to explain it. And he's not doing it on Sentence #1. He's not being intentionally mysterious, either, which is highly annoying. He's just trying to get someone to listen, and by the time we get to the crux of the matter, we're curious to know just what the heck is going on.

It's a world away from the newbie mistake (which I've run across in creative writing classes and crit groups) of opening with someone weeping into a telephone about being dumped by their lover, or with some angsty teen screaming "I hate you!" Please. I haven't even met you yet, so how could I care about your loves and hates?

Iain Banks is an experienced writer. He knows his market and he knows his craft. He can break as many "rules" as he likes, since he's proven he can write well and sell books.

I maintain that for the not-yet-published, it's wise to learn what the current "writing rules" are, and use extra caution if one feels it necessary to ignore them. Wait until you're a best-selling author to throw caution to the winds. By then you'll have an agent and editor, anyway, to pull you back from the brink if you try to do something too stupid. :D

[blacbird]

I'm beginning to think the basic "rule" is only the first part of this dictum:

Never start.

caw

[Michael Dracon]

The rules are good for writers just beginning to learn their craft. Someone who has spent many years working on their abilities as a writer knows when and how to break rules.

It's a bit of a generalization, but it seems to hold true.

It's good advice. But I have to agree with some of the others here, if you manage to pull off a good dialogue as a starting line you'll be fine.

The current opening line of my first novel WIP is: "Sorry ma'am, no silver swords allowed in this office." Dialogue, yes, but it does explain a lot already of what's going on.

[PenDragon]

Here's an article on the subject ...

http://thebootcampkeegandiaries.blogspot.com/2007/04/creative-writing-myths.html

[aadams73]

Some of my favorite books have opened with a line of dialog. I think this is one of those bullshit rules. The real rule should be: don't open with a boring line of dialog.

So there :)

[scarletpeaches]

The best opening I've ever seen to a novel was the first line of Douglas Coupland's JPod:

Now, the reason it's my favourite is because I love how Coupland has written himself into the book with just the first line. :D But it's also an example of how an opening with dialogue can not only be effective, but hilarious and appropriately set the tone for the rest of the book.

See, that would make me SPeBWaS* the book. It comes across as pretentious and attention-seeking.




*Scarletpeaches Book/Wall Syndrome

[Tachyon]

See, that would make me SPeBWaS* the book. It comes across as pretentious and attention-seeking.
Shouldn't an opening line grab one's attention, and thus be attention-seeking?

It is pretentious, of course, and the Coupland character in the novel is a big jerk. But it certainly made me want to continue reading the book.

I avoid opening my prose with dialogue. It isn't my strong point, so I'm not confident that I could open with a line that grabs attention. Plus it throws me into the middle of a conversation and forces me to think out the beginning of the conversation, then try to explain that beginning subsequently without confusing myself, the reader, and the computer. I'd rather just begin at the beginning.

[Gillhoughly]

I'm not a fan of dream starts, too many of them are an opportunity to tell not show, and too few writers have the skill to get away with the device.

A dream will have more impact on readers after they've gotten to meet and care about your characters.

But opening with dialogue a no-no?

Only if it's terrible dialogue.

I've opened several books with dialogue. They all sold. It was clearly really goooood dialogue.

No rule is engraved in stone. You use what works best and you make it better than anything else you've read.


Here's a quote from yesterday's blog from agent Miss Snark:

"Opening with people sleeping, dreaming, watching tv, reading, blogging or otherwise doing static things is the EZPass lane to the "sorry not right for me" Crosspatch Expressway."

Write an opening that will distract your reader from a subway full of potential muggers. Make the reader miss their stop.

Good luck!

[Steve W]

Hi,

Advice is always good unless you can prove it wrong. If you can come up with an original dream sequence, write it. Same with dialogue. If you can create a really buzzing hook, what's it matter what form it takes? Don't think of such advice as rules, but guides.

Cheers,
Steve

[TigerFire]

I'm still struggling with how to begin my novel. I've tried a couple different approaches, but for some reason or another I've killed them. I've started it with a nightmare, but t hen I read something saying it's not good to do that, so I axed that. I started out with a bloody scene where my character witnesses a beating, but it was so horrible and didn't make any sense I axed that too. Currently mine starts with dialogue, and I still need to change it because it still doesn't have the intended effect.

To get to the topic, I think starting out with dialogue has been done several times, but it depends on what type of dialogue you're starting with. If it's something that will instantly pull the reader in, then do it. Like if the first words in the story is. "Get down!" John screamed.

That would instantly pull me in. It is still technically dialogue. Or even if you use. "I'm sorry but I have some bad news." That's another one that would pull me in because I would want to know what the bad news is.