Child Actors

[Hollow]

First off, let me start by saying I feel kind of guilty for asking so much here when I have so very little (if anything) to give back to this wonderful community. I feel like a leech! If only I had a bit more knowledge in this tiny 18-year-old brain!

Anyways, on to my question: My script has three children as the main characters. Their roles are rather adult-ish and not really childish at all. Think Dakota Fanning rather than Tatum McCann (in Click) I wonder if I should dull their dialogue and actions down a little to be more childish. I've been told that the dialogue for a character has been too adultish for him (10 years old). And if the film ever gets made I'm not sure if any child actors could actually play their roles effectively. But in the end it's all on me (the writer's) end isn't it?

Your opinions? I'm not sure if giving a short summary of the story would help here, but if you think so then I'll post one. I'm really stuck in a rut here.

~Hollow

[zahra]

Dear Hollow,

If there's a solid reason that the 10-year-old's actions and dialogue are adult, then by all means keep it as it is. But if it's just too adult because you're not really sure how littl'uns act and speak, then I think you may want to do some research. How about letting some of the mums and dads here have a look at your dialogue? Obviously, though, not all kids are at the same level. The part of London where I live, the kids are repellently confident and articulate, but go a few miles in another direction and some of them of the same age can barely string a sentence together. Good luck, and I hope you have an interesting time researching.

[Maryn]

You've hit on a particular peeve of mine, screenplays and teleplays in which the kids are like miniature adults, with adult vocabularies and sensibilities.

Writing kids that seem like real kids isn't easy. Casting young actors to portray kids can't be any picnic, either, or there'd be more who aren't painful to watch. But even a gifted child actor isn't going to be able to sell lines which are too wise for their years and the character's experiences.

Remember, streetwise, savvy kids who've seen everything, including things they shouldn't have, still don't know everything, even though they may act like they do. They still experience self-doubt, a need for unconditional love, shame at their shortcomings, wonder at things adults take for granted, and innocence, both sexual and social.

If you aren't around kids the age you're writing about, spend some time observing them without their knowing, if you can. They'll open your eyes.

Maryn

[nielsty]

Have to quote one of my old audiovisual teachers. He claimed that old people, animals and children could ruin even the best script because of their often lacking acting skills. One of my fellow students then made the best short film at the university that year containing only these 3 types of actors. But it's a challenge for sure.

[NikeeGoddess]

have you seen the will farrell short where the little girl (about 3) screams at him (her tenant) about paying the rent?
you can't not laugh at that little girl acting like an adult

[tourdeforce]

The first two things they taught me in film school were:

KISS (Keep it simple, stupid)

and

AWAC (stay away from Air-Water-Animals-Children)

[dpaterso]

If you aren't around kids the age you're writing about, spend some time observing them without their knowing, if you can. They'll open your eyes.
But don't hang around playparks smiling at kids. Bad men in uniforms will come and do bad things to you. I'm just saying.

-Derek

[Ragnarok]

Hollow,

I'd recommend you to watch Forbidden games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden_Games) by Rene Clement (1952) for an example of a movie with kids as main characters that got it right. And you heard it from someone who is usually allergic to kids. An amazing movie on many levels.

The first two things they taught me in film school were:

KISS (Keep it simple, stupid)

and

AWAC (stay away from Air-Water-Animals-Children)

You folks don't like a challenge, do you? I'm not going to get started on that KISS rule to avoid off-topic controversy.

[Plot Device]

I have worked with children as a summer camp counselor in different countries and cultures, and I find that children up through the age of 10 or 11 are uterly universal from one end of the globe to the other. They will laugh at the same things and get upset over the same things. It isn't until about the age of 12 and beyond that culture starts to take hold of a child and their sensibilities start to become more locally-distinct.

If your script is about a 10-year-old, you're at the advantage of having a universal-type child to write about. ANY kid from ANY neighborhood and ANY economic level and speaking ANY language will be exactly the same as any other kid in the world of the same age (barring mental/emotional disabilities). So any 10-year-old kid in your neighborhod will be a fine model to study, regarless of where your script takes place.

As for the maturity level, you might wanna make your child an extremely gifted child. Children with mega-brain intelligence can be startlingly advanced in their maturity and vocabularies, and often tend to be very pure-hearted and altruistic (thank God! otherwise they're downright creepy!). If your character is a super-brain, then advanced maturity is just fine.

But that scenario almost NEVER makes any allowances for actual WISDOM. Wisdom comes from years of life, not reading books. It's possible for a gifted child to read books of wisdom ("Chicken Soup for the Soul" anyone? or how about Proverbs and Ecclesiastes?) and increase their capacity for wisdom. But even then, wisdom usually needs to be tested and seasoned through actual living. So I wouldn't have a problem with a gifted child who is very smart and has great people skills, but I'd laugh at a child displaying advanced degrees of wisdom.

[Hollow]

You make some good points Plot Device. But what about children who have had something traumatic happen to them in the past and have been made to grow up a bit quicker than normal?

Ragnorok, I will try to find that film and watch it. Thanks for the suggestion.

Derek, I may love children but I'm not a pedophile. No worries about my lurking creepily around playgrounds. :)

[Plot Device]

You make some good points Plot Device. But what about children who have had something traumatic happen to them in the past and have been made to grow up a bit quicker than normal?

I think you're describing a damaged child who will not be stable. Such a child resorted to a defense mechanism of some kind which included shedding/abandonig his or her childlike innocence and sense of playfulness. To say that this child "grew up a bit quicker" is a myth. What this child really did was by-pass an impotrant developmental stage.

Not healthy.

Here's an example of damaged physical developemnt that I think can translate well into learning lessons on psychological development:

I used to babysit a 4-year-old little girl with odd motor problems. The physical therapist interviewed the mother and found out the mother mistakenly failed to allow the little girl to crawl as a baby. She always had the girl play in a stationary place, and then she always carried the little girl from point A to point B, so the girl never crawled. The result was she was delayed in her walking, and when she did learn to walk, she was a clumsy walker.

The physical therapist explained that there's a need for a child to crawl (if even for a few months) before eventually walking because there's an important motor development that gets fostered via the crawling activity. And that motor development later translates into a better gracefulness and more accute sense of balance when walking.

By-passing certain developmental stages is a bad thing. What you're describing is a child who's damaged goods, not a pillar of strength and not a fountain of wisdom.

[Hollow]

That's exactly what I meant! Thank you very much for responding :) I think that has helped a great deal.

[Plot Device]

That's exactly what I meant! Thank you very much for responding :) I think that has helped a great deal.


Glad it helped. :)

[Hollow]

Um... perhaps you could help me with something else I'm having a TAD bit of trouble with. In my screenplay, one of the main characters' dad is Russian, and has a heavy accent. So far I've only used the few movies I've seen with Russian men in them as examples for his dialogue. I've pretty much gathered that they have slightly broken english. The guy from Armageddon and the dad from Running Scared, to name a few more recent examples.

Maybe I should just watch more movies with Russian actors (In English, preferrably). In that case, any suggestions.

Btw, I'm posting this here instead of the other accented dialogue thread because I didn't want to interrupt the help the OP is getting with a different language/group.

[Plot Device]

Hmmmm. Russian. I bet there's a list of films somewhere on the net where Russians are main characters.

Try "K-19: The Widow Maker" starrig Harrison Ford and Liam Neeson. ALL the characters in that are Russian (even Harrison Ford) and they ALL do Russian accents.

[Plot Device]

And then there's "The Sum of All Fears" with Ben Affleck.

And who could forget "The Russians Are Coming! The Russians Are Coming!" a comedy classic from the 1960's.

[Plot Device]

And then there's "Fiddler on the Roof." (uh ... that takes place Russia, right????? Yes? No? Anybody?)

[Hollow]

Thanks once again for the suggestions. :) I can't believe how helpful this forum has been. Honestly doubt I would be continueing this adventure if it weren't for you guys.

[Plot Device]

Thanks once again for the suggestions. :) I can't believe how helpful this forum has been. Honestly doubt I would be continueing this adventure if it weren't for you guys.

And since you're a Star Trek fan, how about Ensiegn Checkov?

[Hollow]

Star Trek? ;>_> I've never seen ST in my life, haha. Where did you get that idea?

[Plot Device]

Star Trek? ;>_> I've never seen ST in my life, haha. Where did you get that idea?


Um ..... you signature????

[Hollow]

Oh, is that where that quote is from? I just found it when I Googled "Hollow" searching for something slightly appropriate ;>_> That was totally unintentional, haha.

[nielsty]

A few films with connection to Russia:
Ninotchka
Isn't some of Bourne Supremacy taking place in Russia?
DR. Strangelove
Potemkin (won't help you with dialogue :-)

I also did a search on youtube on "russian accent" and got 135 different clips.

[Plot Device]

Oh, is that where that quote is from? I just found it when I Googled "Hollow" searching for something slightly appropriate ;>_> That was totally unintentional, haha.


"For the World is Hollow and I have Touched the Sky" is the title of a Star Trek-Original Series episode where Kirk, Spock and McCoy visit an articifial planet that is enclosed in a super dome. The people who live there are of a lower technology than the makers of the dome (a bit Medieval) and have no knowledge about the artificiality of their world. They are forbidden by anceint law to ever climb the mountains. But one old man claims he climbed the mountains one day and that he reached up and touched the top of a ceiling of some kind (a little Truman Show for ya there). His dying words to Kirk were "For the world is hollow and I have touched the sky."

[dpaterso]

Star Trek? ;>_> I've never seen ST in my life, haha. Where did you get that idea?
That's just... wrong. I get all my plots from Star Trek: TOS. Most of my dialogue, too. No one seems to have noticed or complained yet. You. Damned. Klingon!

"For the World is Hollow and I have Touched the Sky" is the title of a Star Trek-Original Series episode where Kirk, Spock and McCoy visit an articifial planet that is enclosed in a super dome.
"When visiting an alien world, never turn your back on big metal cylinders sticking up out of the ground, invariably they will turn out to be elevators stuffed full of bad men with swords." ~Starfleet Handbook (Captain's Edition)

-Derek

[Hollow]

That's just... wrong.

Haha sorry Derek! I'm a youngin, only 18. I missed that ship, really. Never got into the whole sci-fi thing.

[Celia Cyanide]

You've hit on a particular peeve of mine, screenplays and teleplays in which the kids are like miniature adults, with adult vocabularies and sensibilities.

At the same time, I think it's hard to write children as children, and still make them interesting when they aren't old enough to develop personalities yet.

I think that if you're having trouble with them, the first thing you need to do is ask yourself why your characters need to be children, anyway.

[Hollow]

Well, to answer that would take all day for myself. In my case it is totally necessary for these main characters to be children. Otherwise the story just doesn't work.

[Celia Cyanide]

May I ask why? I know you say it will take a long time to explain it. But is it because children would react differently to the situation than adults would? Because what you described, your problem seems to be that they are not.

[Hillgate]

Sorry, come in a bit late (story of my life - I better leave early). You should change the title to 'Russian Dolls'. And as for the Russian, either just drop your prepositions and stick (Russian accent) as a 'wryly' the first time, or, the first time a character is introduced, say 'Russian accent' in the narrative and then just have them speak English normally. The actors'll work it out. They're nice friendly people, really...

[Hollow]

I think you misunderstood Hillgate :) Only two characters are Russian, a dad and his son. And it takes place in America. Why should I change it to Russian Dolls? Is there some meaning behind that? Maybe I'm the one missing something.

Celia, I think my main issue is the dialogue, really. Of course believable dialogue is always difficult but for children it's even harder.

[Maryn]

I'd advise against some of the advice I'm seeing here. I live in a multiethnic community which includes Russians. I don't think a wryly is going to cover the accent issue, since word choice and word order are different. To get that right, you probably need to listen to real Russians speak.

Not actors doing a Russian accent based on a screenplay, no matter how good. That's too far removed from reality. At the very least, if you're using films to muster Russian accents, use films in which the actors playing the characters are really Russian. I understand that they often have input in how a Russian speaking English would actually say their lines, as opposed to how the screenwriter wrote them.

Check out the movies featuring Elya Baskin (Air Force One, Moscow on the Hudson) and those with other Russians rather than Americans, Brits, Poles, Irishmen, etc. doing the accents that seem okay or excellent to our ignorant American ears.

Maryn, who heard a real one at a meeting last night

[Hollow]

Thanks Maryn, I'll definitely look those up :)

[Hollow]

You should change the title to 'Russian Dolls'.

Just thought I should let you know I took your advice Hillgate. :) I thought about it and did a bit of research and it does seem to be more fitting than previous titles. I'll see how it works. I'm rewriting the beginning to my script completely and may post it on SYW soon....