Industry acceptability of "Tight" and "Very Tight" scripts in Final Draft

[Plot Device]

This isn't a formatting question, nor a techy question. It's a will-they-reject-it-on-first-glance question:

Q. Has anyone here ever taken their Final Draft script, found it was too long, and then used the Final Draft formatting trick called "Tight/Very Tight" to shorten it? If so ... is that "okay?"


If you don't know what I'm talking about, read on and I'll explain ....

The Microsoft Word equivalent is to tinker with the line-spacing.

Such as .....

Here's a bit of dialogue:

....................STEPHEN
..........Yo.



Now .... just underneath "STEPHEN" but just above "Yo" is a strip of white empty space that is exactly one (1) "point" tall (it's called "Line Spacing" in Microsoft and called the same in Final Draft). If you want to, you can shrink the height of that blank space throughout the entire length of your script to just .9 or .8 or .7, etc., thus tightening up your pages. This does NOT mess with the Courier 12-point, nor with the margins. Only the blank spaces in between each line of print have been messed with.

From what I can see, Final Draft's "Tight" mode allows you to shrink that blank strip down to just .89 tall, and "Very Tight" mode allows you to shrink it down to what looks like .68 tall. And this DOES shrink your pages.

My question is ...... it's pretty darned obvious to the trained eye that this has been done. But the 12-point Courier is still being satisfied and all margins are intact. So .... will a professional script reader toss this in the trash the second he sees the "Tight/Very Tight" feature has been used? Or is it "allowed?" If it's NOT allowed, why did Final Draft even include it in the software?

[NikeeGoddess]

i don't think anyone can really answer this question. if you get a rejection letter it may give you specific reasons why they're passing but that reason will not be, "we loved your writing but the spacing is too tight on your formatting".

if your story is so good that they can't put it down then formatting stuff will not keep them from liking your script.
but anything less than stellar... they can and will find any excuse to dump your script in the trash.

personally, i wish FD didn't have all the "cheat" functions. it makes people think they can get accepted by cheating. and the truth is... it's all about the content and style of the writing, the strength in the story, and finding the production company that's looking for exactly what you have to offer.

[nielsty]

if your story is so good that they can't put it down then formatting stuff will not keep them from liking your script.

But couldn't it keep them from reading it in the first place? If they get a 120 page script with narrow format they will know that in reality it isn't 120 pages. For an unproduced spec writer that could mean the difference between the trash can and the thorough readthrough.

[Joe Calabrese]

The reality is that if they have your script ("they" being a producer, agent, or managers-- competitions do not apply for this) then, they requested it based on the strength of your query letter or pitch, whether it be written or verbal.

They will read it...
From beginning to end...
Regardless of formatting flaws, tightness, etc...

If they personally do not read it, they will have a reader do so, or an assistant, but it will get read.

If the story is great and the characters are real and interesting and you can really feel for this story, then that is what it will say in the coverage...

Something like; "Great story! i couldn't put it down. The hero is both strong and sympathetic. The ending was a complete surprise and ever so satisfying. I strongly recommend this script. Oh... It was formatted tight and will need to be trimmed quite a bit."

Producers could care less about the mechanics of your script. Currently, I have two established producers (they work together) reading a first draft of just the first act of my newest endeavor and they could care less about how bad my writing is at this stage of the process. Concept is what sold them and they are willing to read anything and everything I got-- regardless of how it looks. I told them up front it is s=ill in early stages of writing, but they wanted to read it anyway.

Concept is king, story is queen, characters are princes and princesses and formatting is the court jester.

Yes, your formatting and grammar should be very good, especially when you do not have industry connections or a recognizable name, and especially when you are submitting a finished script, but do not forget that the story and your pitch is far more important than whether or not it looks too tight.

As for your page count. Go through it and keep trimming. Cut a sentence down to the point that one more word taken out would ruin it. If you have only a word or a few on a line, bring it up to the one above (lose those orphans). Keep your dialog snappy and to the points and make your writing active. Passive writing by nature eats up more words. If you need to cheat a margin here and there, go ahead, but don't get so hung up on it.

If your story is good, taking twenty or more pages (or even entire scenes that are not crucial) out will not ruin it, if anything it will give you something to put back in during the development meetings once it goes into preproduction.

[clockwork]

I think Tight or Very Tight formatting is way more acceptable than bad formatting. Bad margins or the equivalent would be far worse.

The cheekiest thing I've done was when I had a 121 page script that I desperately wanted to be 120. Convinced there was nothing I could remove or trim (God, was I ever that young?) I opted instead to slip an 'A' page in the middle of the script. So the page count went, 56, 57, 58, 58A, 59, 60. It was still 121 pages long but a quick glance at the last page revealed only 120 pages.

It didn't improve the script but it made me feel better.

[dgl]

Don't do it. It's cheating and it's obvious. Cut the pages. Even if it weren't all that obvious (which it is) it will still read longer, and an experienced reader/producer/agent/manager/etc will know that something is wrong with it. It'll feel heavy, a little too long. They may just think it's a slow read, which is not a good thing. No cheats. Cut the pages.

[Jamesaritchie]

I wouldn't take the chance. Concept or not, I've seen an awful bunch of scripts rejected unread because of poor format and because of incorrect length, and it's usually very easy to tell you really have more than 120 pages there, even if they're "tight."

Really, the script will have to be cut anyway, so do the smart thing and cut it now.

[nmstevens]

This isn't a formatting question, nor a techy question. It's a will-they-reject-it-on-first-glance question:

Q. Has anyone here ever taken their Final Draft script, found it was too long, and then used the Final Draft formatting trick called "Tight/Very Tight" to shorten it? If so ... is that "okay?"


If you don't know what I'm talking about, read on and I'll explain ....

The Microsoft Word equivalent is to tinker with the line-spacing.

Such as .....

Here's a bit of dialogue:

....................STEPHEN
..........Yo.



Now .... just underneath "STEPHEN" but just above "Yo" is a strip of white empty space that is exactly one (1) "point" tall (it's called "Line Spacing" in Microsoft and called the same in Final Draft). If you want to, you can shrink the height of that blank space throughout the entire length of your script to just .9 or .8 or .7, etc., thus tightening up your pages. This does NOT mess with the Courier 12-point, nor with the margins. Only the blank spaces in between each line of print have been messed with.

From what I can see, Final Draft's "Tight" mode allows you to shrink that blank strip down to just .89 tall, and "Very Tight" mode allows you to shrink it down to what looks like .68 tall. And this DOES shrink your pages.

My question is ...... it's pretty darned obvious to the trained eye that this has been done. But the 12-point Courier is still being satisfied and all margins are intact. So .... will a professional script reader toss this in the trash the second he sees the "Tight/Very Tight" feature has been used? Or is it "allowed?" If it's NOT allowed, why did Final Draft even include it in the software?


I think that they included it because they are marketing not only to professionals but also to amateurs and it's included for the same reason that games give you the opportunity to cheat. This is simply a way that people who are "playing" at writing screenplays can cheat the length.

The only trouble is, for people who literally read dozens of scripts a week, they can tell within a page or two if the format has been played with to tighten up the script. Doing that is no different from writing an overlong script and is frowned upon, if anything, even more because:

A) a tight-formatted script is harder on the eyes and:

B) because it's clear to the reader that you're trying to pull something over on them by making them think that the script is shorter than it really is and:

C) scripts that have formatting mistakes (which this is) much like scripts that have grammatical mistakes or spelling mistakes -- while they may be great -- are far more likely not to be great. So doing something like this is essentially priming a reader who already brings almost no expectations to your script to begin with, to have even fewer expectations than they already have.

So don't do it.

NMS

[Plot Device]

Joe Calabrese says "Go ahead, no biggie."
nmstevens says "Don't slit your own throat."

And a myriad of answers in between.

Truth is, I have eliminated 26 pages from my script by using this feature. I have been able to get it down to 141 pages (if you guys recall, it was 270 pages last week), and if I un-do this "tight" feature, I will be right back up to about page 163 again (I just checked it, and yes, it sprang back up from 141 to 163). I will also ruin an AWESOME "first ten" where a hook gets introduced right at the bottom of this "tightened" Page 10.

I can't stand the idea of going backward at this point.

The answer I was looking for was either:

"I have submitted a tightened script and it didn't get rejected"

or

"I have read tightened scripts and I didn't mind."


But I don't think any of the answers above are that forgiving. Even Joe's answer (as nice as it is) isn't what I was looking for.

[scripter1]

overlooking, or ignoring a MAJOR issue.

26 pages = 26 min of film.
In reality, depending on what those 26 min are you could add 30 min to a film. 30 min is a LOT of time.
30 min is enough time for someone to say, "I don't want to sit through this." "I don't want this in my theater because that is 30 min of a second film I can't show." "That is 30 min of Jim Carry's time I can't/won't pay 15 million for."

Something you don't want someone to do is be planning out YOUR film, talking money, and suddenly go "Great Bruce Allmighty this thing is actually 2 hours and 30 minutes!!!! Not the two hours we'd thought."

And who will they be glaring at?

Swallow your bad luck Plot, buy a chainsaw and cut the crap out of your script.

Don't cheat. Write tight.

Fine, you've got a big story, lots going on. Tighten up your writing style.
Frag your sentences.
Um, somewhere around here is an older thread about fragmented sentences. Look that one up. I posted an example of super tight writing.

[Plot Device]

overlooking, or ignoring a MAJOR issue.

26 pages = 26 min of film.
In reality, depending on what those 26 min are you could add 30 min to a film. 30 min is a LOT of time.
30 min is enough time for someone to say, "I don't want to sit through this." "I don't want this in my theater because that is 30 min of a second film I can't show." "That is 30 min of Jim Carry's time I can't/won't pay 15 million for."

Something you don't want someone to do is be planning out YOUR film, talking money, and suddenly go "Great Bruce Allmighty this thing is actually 2 hours and 30 minutes!!!! Not the two hours we'd thought."

And who will they be glaring at?

Swallow your bad luck Plot, buy a chainsaw and cut the crap out of your script.

Don't cheat. Write tight.

Fine, you've got a big story, lots going on. Tighten up your writing style.
Frag your sentences.
Um, somewhere around here is an older thread about fragmented sentences. Look that one up. I posted an example of super tight writing.


*sniff* I was so close to 120 pages! I had just 21 pages left to slice through! Now I'm back to a mountainous 43 pages!

Oh, the horror! :(

[scripter1]

THANK ME!

You get a script read and moving forward and them someone figures out (they will) that you cheated
you'll be dead in the water.

One page, two or three maybe, ten perhaps could be rewritten to trim the script down, but 26!!! That's a big cheat.

If they like the concept they WILL overlook YOU for the rewrites as you obviously can't be trusted to work the industry way.

[Plot Device]

THANK ME!

You get a script read and moving forward and them someone figures out (they will) that you cheated
you'll be dead in the water.

One page, two or three maybe, ten perhaps could be rewritten to trim the script down, but 26!!! That's a big cheat.

If they like the concept they WILL overlook YOU for the rewrites as you obviously can't be trusted to work the industry way.


I am not worthy!

I am not worhy!


http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/ARP/ARP116/Grovel_C.jpg

[clockwork]

Remember when it comes to editing, it's easier to remove chunks than chip away at sentences. If you're brave enough, you'll find you can eiliminate entire set pieces, sub-plots or particular gags to no great effect much more easily than trying to make all those four line paragraphs into three line paragraphs.

[scripter1]

and then there is also being able to really focus on the strongest points, issues, and themes of the story.

A focused, strong story is truly a wonderful thing.

[clockwork]

I think one leads to the other.

[Joe Calabrese]

I didn't say it is a no biggie.

Maybe I ramble at times, but the point I wanted to make was don't get so hung up on mechanics, worry about making your script the best it can be in characters, story and such.

Other than that, what I said was (and I repeat)

As for your page count. Go through it and keep trimming. Cut a sentence down to the point that one more word taken out would ruin it. If you have only a word or a few on a line, bring it up to the one above (lose those orphans). Keep your dialog snappy and to the points and make your writing active. Passive writing by nature eats up more words. If you need to cheat a margin here and there, go ahead, but don't get so hung up on it.

If your story is good, taking twenty or more pages (or even entire scenes that are not crucial) out will not ruin it, if anything it will give you something to put back in during the development meetings once it goes into preproduction.

In other words. Don't use the tight feature. Instead, make your script tight in the writing and in the story.

[NikeeGoddess]

The answer I was looking for was either:

"I have submitted a tightened script and it didn't get rejected"

or

"I have read tightened scripts and I didn't mind."

asked... and answered.
i don't think anyone can really answer this question. if you get a rejection letter it may give you specific reasons why they're passing but that reason will not be, "we loved your writing but the spacing is too tight on your formatting".

[Boo_Radley]

Swallow your bad luck Plot, buy a chainsaw and cut the crap out of your script.

Don't cheat. Write tight.

Fine, you've got a big story, lots going on. Tighten up your writing style.
Frag your sentences.
Um, somewhere around here is an older thread about fragmented sentences. Look that one up. I posted an example of super tight writing.

Agreed. I have no idea what your script is about, Plot, but at 270 pages...that's a lot of dead trees, and a four and a half hour long movie. I'm not at all intending to sound snide when I say that if your script is that long, maybe formatting isn't the problem.

As Scripter said, write tight. Look at ways you can lower the page count not by monkeying with the spacing, but by tightening up the story, losing anything not absolutely essential to telling it. You might even find combining two characters into one, or just cutting one out altogether, to be helpful.

Again, no idea what your script is about but if you're not James Cameron making Titanic II nobody will want to read a script that long -- unless you've already knocked them right the hell out with a wicked good query letter or you're related to Bruce Willis.

[DanielD]

To Plot Device.
My tutor(teacher) told me "Your best friend is the axe".
I Pondered this "An axe?...My best friend?...Mmmmmm,yeeeesssss!". Upon returning from my garden shed,axe in hand, I quickly set about performing some DIY alterations to my furniture.
Sorry.
He is right though.
There are certain ways of writing which keep the Action(descriptive)passages and the Dialogue,short and sweet.
One way,is a very Staccato style,like using short, sharp punches.
Yet all the important details are still included.
It makes for a quick,smooth read.
Shane black(Leathal Weapon) uses what they call the left hand technique,whereby new sentences,always start on the left hand side.
This technique,keeps the script flowing.
Most of the Screenwriting websites I have looked at,and the books I have read,say the same thing.
Economy of words!!!
Daniel.

[zeprosnepsid]

When I worked as a reader I pretty much ignored any script that didn't follow proper formatting. I also would throw things out as soon as they turned me off. If everything is smushed on a page, it turns me off.

You could do this but it doesn't help you. It may hurt you, it may not, but it doesn't help you.

You want to do everything possible to get your script read. So it makes sense to just follow the standard. Who knows what is going to turn a reader or a producer off that day. Don't give them any reason to throw your script away unread. Give it the best chance possible.

[NikeeGoddess]

aside from all that advice
if you send your script electronically in FD they can always check the formatting so you wouldn't be fooling anyone and it might turn people off to receive a 120 page "tight" script that really turned out to be 150 pages "untighted".

[icerose]

Send your script to me. I'll hack it. I'm sure there is still quite a bit of stuff you could trim. When you trim and tighten, the real way, you make your story better. You want he pages to fly not grind slowly by, or they will be dying to get it out of their hands because it's taking them forever to make any progress.

[Plot Device]

My page count is now down to 126 "tightened" and 144 normal.

And I again stress: that's starting from 270 two weeks ago. So I have trashed over 120 pages (over two hours).



icerose, I appreciate the offer, but I wanna hold off on any outside help right now because I haven't hit "the wall" yet. Maybe next week when I'm down to 128 normal and have cried and banged my head against the wall, I might take you up on it (if you're still available and Spielberg didn't draft you to write the next HG Wells adaptation)). For now I still have some unction left in me.

Act 1 is 30 pages normal (used to be .70)
Act 2 is 76 pages normal (used to be 120)
Act 3 is 38 pages normal (used to be .80)
Total is 144 pages normal

[scripter1]

144 is not bad at all.
That's an honest script. A first draft.
You should feel pleased that you've really trimmed it down.

And don't think that none of us knows what it feels like. Most writers start out overwriting. Or many of us come from novels first and then get hooked on scripts.

My first script had to come down from a 300 page novel.
The first draft came in at 175.

So you know, I feel your pain.
AND it is very possible.

[icerose]

I have the opposite problem. I write too lean. I usually end up having to go back and add story because I shoot straight through the heart of it. But it's all good because it allows me room to develop characters and wind in some subplots that only add to the story. It's a pain because it takes a lot of headwork and careful planning, much like cutting I suppose.

May we both find a happy medium.

As for Stephen Speilburg, I would love that. If only...

[Boo_Radley]

I'm the opposite; I over-write to the point of rambling. Most of my first drafts have chunks of dialogue ten lines long and two paragraphs of description for something which only needs one. But, I think it's okay to over-write on a first draft, because that's what first drafts are for, and nobody's going to read it but me. Come rewrite time, though, I cut and slice to the point of cruelty and it's not uncommon for me to lose twenty pages from a first rewrite.

Sounds like you're doing what you need to do, Plot. Just be sure that you're not only just cutting out pages, but bettering the ones you keep.

[NikeeGoddess]

it's definitely easier rewrite once you have overwritten than it is to dig up substance and add to a short script.

a good guideline even for talky flicks - no bits of dialogue or action over 4 lines. during a chip away session you should be able to cut out so many extra words of dialogue. be extra concise. and action lines don't have to be narrative. short and sweet is better especially for action flicks.

if you must have a character give a speech... start late in the speech where only the most important information is given. it can be broken up by the speech going into the background while other things are going on with other characters (ie - their reactions, distractions, their own private conversations, etc...) we don't have to hear every word in a speech. it's such a chore and a bore -- don't force reader/viewers to do it.

plot - when i saw your page long speech... my eyes glazed over and well,...
<<<the NikeeGoddess just shook her head>>>

give it the AXE!!!

[Jamesaritchie]

If it's NOT allowed, why did Final Draft even include it in the software?

Look at it this way. If it were allowed, we'd all be doing it. It's so much easier to change the format, rather than making tough cuts.

Like most others, I tend to write long in first draft, but my extra length usually comes from too much narration, and lengthy description. This is, for me, easy to cut in the second draft. But easy or hard, I cut it.

Really, I've wondered why FD even has this feature. I suspect it may be for very minor use. If you have 122 pages, and you format it to fit in 120, it's likely no one will notice. But even if this is the reason, it's still a feature that can be too easily abused.

Then again, I'm not an expert here. I don't use FD, and haven't for a long time. I can't even remember how half the features work. I just use a template in MS Word, and if I could, I'd still be using a manual typewriter.

As for what Joe said, I don't want to put words in his mouth, but it sounds to me like he means that tough as it is to make the cuts, you'll definitely have a better script after you do so.

[Plot Device]

I have the opposite problem. I write too lean. I usually end up having to go back and add story because I shoot straight through the heart of it. But it's all good because it allows me room to develop characters and wind in some subplots that only add to the story. It's a pain because it takes a lot of headwork and careful planning, much like cutting I suppose.

May we both find a happy medium.

As for Stephen Speilburg, I would love that. If only...


I write at such length that I'd probably make a great daytime soap writer. :D



Like most others, I tend to write long in first draft, but my extra length usually comes from too much narration, and lengthy description. This is, for me, easy to cut in the second draft. But easy or hard, I cut it.




I'm also very prosaic. I have "ideas" I try to capture and embody, so I try to poetically echo certain words or phrases two or even three times during the course of a script. That means I have to make things line up and make later conversations point back to earlier ones. It's a lot harder to cut conversations when there are critical threads of connectivity going on.

Examples:

-- "They could bring us the whole world right to our doorstep" gets spoken by one protagonist in the opening scene. Then that exact same lines gets echoed later at the close of Act 1 by the villain who says "I'm going to be their salvation. I will bring them the whole world right to their doorstep."

-- A seven-year-old little boy comments in Act 1 that he really likes a young woman named Percy and how she's his favorite babysitter. And he even says "I'm gonna marry Percy when I grow up." Then later, in Act 2, the boy stumbles upon the main protagonist and --as only a child can-- he asks him "Are you gonna marry Percy?" The protagonist is embarassed and tries to laugh-off that question by saying: "Now I thought YOU were gonna marry her!" And the little boy shrugs with a self-conscious confession: "I know I can't REALLY marry her. I was just pretending. So are YOU gonna marry her? Or are you just pretending too?"

-- The smell of "the desert after the rain" and how beautiful it smells and how "Heaven itself must smell like that" is described by a protagonist in what seems to be a throwaway conversation in Act 2. Then later, this same protagonist is talking to a little girl who describes a mysterious man who rescued her (and we all know she's really describing an angel). She talks about what he said, what he looked like, the clothes he wore, and she even comments "and he smelled so nice." When asked "What did he smell like?" she replies "like the desert after the rain." Then, at the end, when my main protagonist has had his deus ex machina angelic visitation that saved his life from the bad guys, his girlfriend finds him alive and well and hugs him and suddenly she says "Your clothes are dry, but you smell like you've been rained upon."

-- One protagonist is trying to convince the other protagonist to make a huge career move and to branch out into the talk radio circuit and "make a name for yourself." But the other protagonist protests: "MY NAME ISN'T IMPORTANT!" And then later, when he asks the little girl what the mysterious man's name was, she replies: "I asked him that. He just said My name isn’t important."

-- One protagonist is talking to a priest, and the protagonist is faced with his character arc: something he must do and yet refuses to do out of fear. And the priest pulls a passage out of Esther: "And who knows but that perhaps you have been raised to this position for such a time as this." Later, he is speaking on the phone to an old friend and mentor who also pulls that same passage out and gives it to him. That spurs him to go ahead and do what he needs to and compete his arc.

-- My primary protagonist (Galvin) is trying to convince my secondary protagonist to do the whole talk-radio/book-deal/movie-deal thing. He urges him: "You're worth far more than this crummy little town!" and then repeats later in the same conversation: "You're worth far more than all this!" Then, in Act 3, at the cusp of his own character arc, Galvin is, for the first time (and with her permission), reading his girlfriend's diary, and he finds the entry from the day she first met him. She says in that entry: "Today I met Mr. Galvin West. I looked up his name. It means 'sparrow.' If God keeps his eye on the sparrow then he also keeps his eye upon Galvin. And I pray that God will not let this beautiful precious sparrow fall to the ground. You are worth far more than many sparrows, Galvin." And then, at the climax, Galvin has been taken by the bad guys to the villain named Mr. Darius (a mob boss) and Mr. Darius is about to have him killed. (And at this point, we of the audience have never been told what Mr. Darius' first name is, just that his first initial is "M.") Mr. Darius asks Galvin if he has anything else he wants to say before he dies. Galvin replies: "You're worth far more than this, Michael." (Thus we find out his name is Michael, which is meant as an ironic joke since Michael is also the name if an angel.) Mr. Darius frowns and says "I don't recall giving you permission to address me by my Chris-tee-yun name." And then has his henchmen carry out their execution of him.


I also tend to get poetic and symbolic with names (as with Mr. Darius above, as well as Galvin). Sometimes the symbolism is meant as a joke (the name of my fictional town is "Harksville" and the local newspaper is called the "Harksville Herald"). And sometimes it's meant to be sorta deep, such as my secondary protagonist is named David, after King David in the Bible, and King David started off as a sheperd. My character named David in my scipt is a church pastor, and more than once references are made to his job as a "sheperd." I have another character who only goes by his last name up until the very end when we find out his first name is Gabriel, and again, that's only meant by me as a joke. David has a son named Noel, also meant by me as a joke since the story is about angels. My female protagonist is named Percy, short for Perciville. I wanted something very different for her. Perciville was one of the knights of the Round Table. In shame, he failed to bring back the Holy Grail but he came very close and almost had it in his grasp. The name means "he who pierces the vale" which is the vale of death. Percy has had a difficult life and so I was half borrowing from that symbolism when I named her.

[Plot Device]

I'm the opposite; I over-write to the point of rambling. Most of my first drafts have chunks of dialogue ten lines long and two paragraphs of description for something which only needs one. But, I think it's okay to over-write on a first draft, because that's what first drafts are for, and nobody's going to read it but me. Come rewrite time, though, I cut and slice to the point of cruelty and it's not uncommon for me to lose twenty pages from a first rewrite.

Sounds like you're doing what you need to do, Plot. Just be sure that you're not only just cutting out pages, but bettering the ones you keep.


I'm trying. :)

[Jamesaritchie]

Plot Device, you've touched on something that I try to do, but that drives me crazy, and this is repeating a theme through dialogue, or sometimes through image. It sounds like you have it down pat, but I struggle with this every last time. I can't seem to get the hang of it, and I can tear a script to pieces trying.

Is this something you plan in advance, during the outline stage, or is it something that happens as the script itself is written?

[Plot Device]

Look at it this way. If it were allowed, we'd all be doing it. It's so much easier to change the format, rather than making tough cuts.

That makes a lot of sense.


Really, I've wondered why FD even has this feature. I suspect it may be for very minor use. If you have 122 pages, and you format it to fit in 120, it's likely no one will notice. But even if this is the reason, it's still a feature that can be too easily abused.

Unfortunately, it doesn't allow you to pick an incrimental percentage like JUST 3% or even 1%. It slices by either a flat 9% or a flat 18% (that was my calculation) depending on whether you pick "tight" or "very tight." So it seems to be useless for professional scripts.

Then again, I'm not an expert here. I don't use FD, and haven't for a long time. I can't even remember how half the features work. I just use a template in MS Word, and if I could, I'd still be using a manual typewriter.

You're a brave soul. :)

As for what Joe said, I don't want to put words in his mouth, but it sounds to me like he means that tough as it is to make the cuts, you'll definitely have a better script after you do so.

Yeah. I have been getting more and more economical these past two weeks. :cool:

[Plot Device]

Plot Device, you've touched on something that I try to do, but that drives me crazy, and this is repeating a theme through dialogue, or sometimes through image. It sounds like you have it down pat, but I struggle with this every last time. I can't seem to get the hang of it, and I can tear a script to pieces trying.

Is this something you plan in advance, during the outline stage, or is it something that happens as the script itself is written?

A little of both. :)

I plan certain things out ahead of time, refine them as I go, and I also accidentally discover some way-cool stuff during the journey, and those little gems I go back and insert later.

To be honest, I picked up this style via sheer osmosis from years and years of going to church and listening to sermons. And also from years of reading the Bible. A good church sermon will echo a precise phrase two or three times in the text. And I can cite two phrases from the Bible that do it:

1) The Book of Judges starts off with the phrase "And in those days, Israel had no king, and every man did what he thought was right in his own eyes." And then the whole book goes on to itemize the horrible immorality that people engaged in with a lack of king. Then the phrase is repeated at least once more "And in those days, Israel had no king, and every man did what was right in his own eyes." And then I think it's repeatred a third time at the very end of the book as a sad an solemn morality statement of all that can go wrong when there is no leader.

2) The Book of Genesis starts off "In the beginning" and then the Book of John does the same "In the beginnning.

There are loads of other examples from the Bible like this. But this is where I got it from.

[Plot Device]

BTW--I also do image-based poetry where I echo a visual two or three times, but my visual echoing isn't as indepth or as frequent as my dialogue-based echoing.




Here's one such visual echo from my current script:

David explains about charitable giving and how "true love is like true charity, it freely gives and expects nothing in return; as soon as repayment is expected, it ceases to be charity and instead becomes a cold icy business deal mixed with coercion." David quotes from the Gospels where Jesus says "when you give [as in charitable giving] your left hand" and here David raises his left arm followed by his right, "shouldn't know what your right hand is doing." And then later, when Mr. Darius is explaining that he wants to give Harksville a small towns development grant, but only if they give Mr. Darius what he wants, Galvin challenges him and says "So it isn't really a grant then." Mr. Darius frowns and asks "How is this not a grant?" Galvin says "A grant is a gift... of charity." Mr. Darius counters by insisting "This is charity. I merely expect something in return for my charity is all." And then when Galvin protests to Mr. Darius that he assumed the Darius Foundation was a non-profit, charitable organization, Mr. Darius raises his left arm, followed by his right and says "The Darius Foundation is my charitable arm, and Darius Enterprises is my profitable arm. Sometimes they work together."

[Jamesaritchie]

I can't tell you how valuable you last posts were. I've probably listened to a thousand or more sermons, and I've read the Bible all the way through more than once, but I never made the connection. Good sermons and the Bible do this very well. Several examples that I missed on hearing or reading are now running through my head. Thanks very much for that.

Now for the hard part of learning how to work this into scripts without turning my brain to mush.

[scripter1]

is picking ONE theme, ONE story, ONE character, and focusing on that ONE.

The issue I see in all of Plot's work is this; while he is very good at creating ideas, moods, themes, plots, characters, etc, etc, he just wants to do TOO MUCH.

Too much for spec scripts and the movie theater.

I think it would be great if he can train himself to focus and get industry standard scripts working.

I also think that maybe he could look into epidode or soap opera writing.
Much smaller nich to fit in, harder to find a job opening, BUT if you're good, and that is your gift, then go for it.

[Jamesaritchie]

is picking ONE theme, ONE story, ONE character, and focusing on that ONE.

The issue I see in all of Plot's work is this; while he is very good at creating ideas, moods, themes, plots, characters, etc, etc, he just wants to do TOO MUCH.

Too much for spec scripts and the movie theater.

I think it would be great if he can train himself to focus and get industry standard scripts working.

I also think that maybe he could look into epidode or soap opera writing.
Much smaller nich to fit in, harder to find a job opening, BUT if you're good, and that is your gift, then go for it.

I think most of us want to do too much, want to include too much, when we first start. This is hardly a reason to look for something else to do. Writing anything is about learning, Darned few come anywhere close to writing an acceptable spec script, or something appropriate for theaters, until after they've written many scripts, and have been at this for years.

Length is important, but I've seen a God-awful bunch of spec scripts that were perfect length, and that didn't include too much, but that still sucked dead bunnies in every other way possible.

A problem is a problem, and any problem can be worked on. Writing well, and developing good characters, is a heck of a lot more important than getting the length wrong. Length is relatively easy to fix. So is including too much. Bad writing and poor character development keep right on sucking.

[NikeeGoddess]

the biggest factor is time. anyone who really puts the effort in and continues to write day after day... year after year will eventually learn what they need to do to succeed. we have to absorb as much as we can to be successful. and some people are more spongy than others, or should i say some people are more hardheaded? same diff! most people can look at stuff they wrote a year ago and especially two years ago or more and laugh at their own crap because they've learned so much since then. it's all a matter of time.

remember nic cage's twin brother in adaptation. he took one screenwriting seminar with robert mckee (author of "story"). absorbed ever bit of advice like a sponge. wrote a script and sold it! first draft too. he did it only because he was a true sponge head for success while his bro was an artist writer. lol!

i say to plot - print out this thread. save your old drafts. seal them and date them: "to be opened May 2009" and have a good time feeling good about how much you've improved in those 2 years.

[scripter1]

I'm not really trying to tell Plot that he can't be a screenwriter, he most certainly can if he works on it and hits his groove. What I'm trying to say is Plot might have a gift for highly developed plots, lengthy involved stories, fully developed characters that can be sustained/grown over years worth of events, and dialogs that can be expounded on multiple times.

I DON'T want him to believe that he has to dump that kind of thinking just to get down to 120 pages.
He may find that he CAN do that and still have a fantastic story that works as a theatrical release.

I think he SHOULD TRY. AND I think that if he really, really, REALLLY wants to go the spec script route that he needs to understand the 120 page limit and hit it.

BUT, if it drives him nuts, stunts his growth, hurts his gift, then he should know there are other avenues. Like mini series, or TV series, or soap operas.
(uh, has there actually been a NEW soap made in the last three to five years? I never watch. I have NO clue.)

[DanielD]

Write from the heart,then edit from the head.
If the story's good, it just needs to be polished,then packaged within the acceptable Screenplay format.
Having a good story,trumps minor format discrepancies(so they say).
Having two hundred spare pages to resource info from,is'nt such a bad thing either.
At least your particular style, will never leave you short on material to enhance the story.
As with research,more is better than less.
Daniel.

[jonpiper]

From what I can see, Final Draft's "Tight" mode allows you to shrink that blank strip down to just .89 tall, and "Very Tight" mode allows you to shrink it down to what looks like .68 tall. And this DOES shrink your pages.

My question is ...... it's pretty darned obvious to the trained eye that this has been done. If it's NOT allowed, why did Final Draft even include it in the software?

A mystery. Perhaps to save paper when you print out your script in order to edit it or let others read it prior to submitting it.

[Plot Device]

I can't tell you how valuable you last posts were.

Glad to be of help. :cool:

is picking ONE theme, ONE story, ONE character, and focusing on that ONE.

The issue I see in all of Plot's work is this; while he is very good at creating ideas, moods, themes, plots, characters, etc, etc, he just wants to do TOO MUCH.

Too much for spec scripts and the movie theater.

I guess this story just needs to hit the 120 mark then.

I'm already down to 136. Just 16 more pages to go. :D

A problem is a problem, and any problem can be worked on. Writing well, and developing good characters, is a heck of a lot more important than getting the length wrong. Length is relatively easy to fix. So is including too much. Bad writing and poor character development keep right on sucking.

Hopefully I have some cool characters here.


I think he SHOULD TRY. AND I think that if he really, really, REALLLY wants to go the spec script route that he needs to understand the 120 page limit and hit it.

I understand it. Yo comprendo.

BUT, if it drives him nuts, stunts his growth, hurts his gift, then he should know there are other avenues. Like mini series, or TV series, or soap operas.

Not too many openings in soaps.

(uh, has there actually been a NEW soap made in the last three to five years? I never watch. I have NO clue.)

I dunno. But I think mini-series would be cool.

[Plot Device]

A mystery. Perhaps to save paper when you print out your script in order to edit it or let others read it prior to submitting it.

Well .... it's kinda silly.


Write from the heart,then edit from the head.

If the story's good, it just needs to be polished,then packaged within the acceptable Screenplay format.

Having a good story,trumps minor format discrepancies(so they say).

Having two hundred spare pages to resource info from,is'nt such a bad thing either.

At least your particular style, will never leave you short on material to enhance the story.

As with research,more is better than less.

Daniel.



Thanks for the encouragement, Daniel. :)

[Plot Device]

Okay. I'm at 136 pages now.

Act 1 = 29
Act 2 = 68
Act 3 = 39

And scripter, if you say "first draft" to me once more, I'm gonna cry. This is my fifth round of paring away so I think I'm well beyond "first draft" stage.

Act 1 seems to be pretty well set. So I need to attack Acts 2 & 3 from here onward.

I have three sore spots that are the last hold-outs: 1) a flash back that's just a little too long, 2) a denouement conversation that's also a bit too fleshed-out, 3) and one of those pesky multi-page speeches of mine. I don't wanna be brutal, but I know I have to. There IS room to slice things off from all three areas. JUST SIXTEEN MORE PAGES!!! Maybe I should add up the page-count of all three chunks and aim for proportionate sub-chunks from each.


After I get it down to 120, then I'll send out querie letters.

[scripter1]

After you get it down to 120 pages GO OUT AND PARTY!!

Then set the script aside for two weeks, maybe even a month.
Start on the next one.
Read, study, ask questions, read some more.
Start a third script.

Come back to the very first one.
Create a solid SECOND draft by fixing all the problems and issues you have come to recognize from your study.

Now get some solid feedback from somebody you trust, a script swap on the boards or a lower budget critique from a script consultant, or a couple of peer reviews on Triggerstreet or Zoetrope.

Rework it to a solid third draft stage.
Proof the crap out of it and polish it up.
Repeat with the other two until they are solid.

NOW start your querying.

You'll have three scripts to offer if anything clicks, you'll have a solid understanding of the craft, you will have been hardened by some tough choices and hard work, AND you will have had time to understand a bit of how the industry works.
ALSO maybe in that time you will have made some contacts while learning how to take notes.


And so now...... ya hate me.

[Steven Howard]

If it's NOT allowed, why did Final Draft even include it in the software?

Having worked for quite some time in the software development field, I can answer this. Because somebody asked for it and it was easy to do. It's an obvious and not very interesting answer, but there it is.

[NikeeGoddess]

Act 1 seems to be pretty well set. So I need to attack Acts 2 & 3 from here onward.

as scripter said, "wrong" - act 1 is the absolute most important act during the early stages of writing. and yes, you are on the early stages known as the first draft. act 1 sets up every scene, every character, every motivation, etc... in act 2 and 3. i suggest you purchase the book "anatomy of a screenplay" by dan decker and try to absorb* the process and significance of structure.

*absorb - your brain must have spongability ;)

and then do what scripter said. otherwise you'll just be spinning you wheels.