Books for comic book writers

[Sai]

And this goes for manga writers too ;).

There seems to be a lot of comic book writers on this forum. Since there are so few books on writing comics (compared to the amount of general writing advice books), I thought it would be a good idea to have a thread to hash out the good and the bad.

Here are some books that I've been reading lately about creating comics. I'm also looking for suggstions (i.e. Is Reinventing Comics worth reading?)

Understanding Comics and Making Comics by Scott McCloud- Really mind-blowing stuff. Understanding Comic is a essay on comics and how they work. It's done in comic form, making it easy to illustrate McCloud's points. If you read comics, UC will change the way you do so. Making Comics is a good sequel, expending on the ideas in UC but putting them to more pratical use.

Alan Moore's Writing for Comics- Alright, this one isn't the best how-to book. It's advice is pretty basic, but if you're a big fan of Alan Moore (and really, who isn't? ;) ) then it's neat to see the behind the scenes look at how he writes comics, and that even a genius has fears and insecurities.

The DC Guide to Writing Comics- Denny O'Neil- I'm still reading this one right now. So far I'm skipping through a lot of stuff (he spends much of the first chapter defining terms that I'm already familar with), but it might be good for someone writing comics for the first time. He's also a very good writer, and writes everything in a friendly, easy to understand way.

[wordmonkey]

I believe, for myself, that you can learn all you need to know reading comics. It's all there if you read with an analytical eye.

That said, I know there are some people who feel they need and benefit from the initial crutch of "how-to" books.

One of our learned colleagus here has written a "how to" book and I am sure he'd give you the information on that.

There is also a great thread (last I looked it had slipped to page two in this part of the forum) that takes apart the writing process.

[Dancre]

Which thread are you talking about, wordmonkey? thanks!! And thanks for posting those books, Sai!! I'll check them out.

kim

[wordmonkey]

The thread...

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/member.php?u=465

and our esteemed colleague who has a book on this...

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/member.php?u=465

[Sai]

Thanks!

I don't use them as a crutch, and I agree that you'll learn more just from reading comics, but I want to get my hands on anything I can that might help :).

[Dancre]

The thread...

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/member.php?u=465

and our esteemed colleague who has a book on this...

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/member.php?u=465


LOL!!! Wordmonkey, I think you've been up too late writing. Both threads are of the member.

kim

[Dancre]

Wow!!! I wonder if Mr. "Axler" Ellis will drop by and give us newbies some writing tips. I'd love to hear from him.

kim

[wordmonkey]

LOL!!! Wordmonkey, I think you've been up too late writing. Both threads are of the member.

kim

D'OH! Color me embarassed.

Still, Axler got a double plug outta that, so it's an ill-wind, as they say...

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53425

There ya go. Have fun. It's a loooooooooong thread.

[Dancre]

Thanks!!

[sunandshadow]

For general theory, a screenwriting-oriented book such as Robert McKee's _Story_ is better than any of the comics-specific books I have seen.
http://www.amazon.com/Story-Substance-Structure-Principles-Screenwriting/dp/0060391685/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-8968582-1555206?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179103889&sr=1-1

[Tallymark]

I probably ought to take a look at the McCloud book sometime; mostly I'm not too into guide books, but I've heard good things about that one. A question to those who've read it--does it include some of the nitty gritty technical details? Like, right now I'm twisting my hair about dumb things like, what is that font that most comics use, and, what size do they usually use it at? What size paper does the artist usually draw on? How much bleed space do I need? Alas, those kinds of details are probably more on the art side of things than the writing side...

Anyway, on the topic at hand, I think your best bet is to study comics, especially if you've already read a guide or two. What's neat is that in two of my favorite series, Sandman and Fables, occasionally they'll put out a volume that'll include the original script in the back. Those are definately worth taking a peek at, because you get to see the script side by side with the final product. 'Course, there's many different ways comic scripts are done, but it sure doesn't hurt to take a look at some people who've been very successful at it.

[Snitchcat]

I think I mentioned this once before:

For manga writers, specifically, the "How to Draw Manga" series (don't quite remember the title), is excellent for beginners, and a great refresher for those further along the road.

The series is written by pro Japanese manga artists / writers, and translated. The books open on the right, but, IIRC, read right to left. Don't know why.

Anyhow, last I saw, there were 20 volumes?

Someone previously mentioned this link, too: http://www.howtodrawmanga.com/

It's linked to the books.

[sunandshadow]

Tallymark - no, mccloud's a theorist, his books talk about things like what types of art there are, what are the stages of development of an artist, what is sequential art, and that kind of thing. For gritty details you want one of those books with a company name on it like How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way, or I believe Tokyopop has some online PDFs that give specs for manuscripts.

[Axler]

Wow!!! I wonder if Mr. "Axler" Ellis will drop by and give us newbies some writing tips. I'd love to hear from him.


Here I be. My wife Melissa and I held a graphic novel workshop at a writer's conference in Connecticut over the weekend but due to the time constraints and venue, we dealt only with the basics.

However, I was surprised by the number of people who want to break into the comics field as writers. Quite the change from what it used to be.

I'll be happy to answer any questions I can about the comics-writing process.

Oh, yeah...here's another plug...the Death Hawk graphic novel is printed and will be available for order very shortly. I think it looks great, even if I sez so myself (and I do).

But with art provided by Adam Hughes and Rik Levins, as well as some from Jim Mooney and Darryl Banks, I guess that's no big surprise.

http://www.jazmaonline.com/interviews/imx/mark_ellis.jpg

[Dancre]

Ok, Mark, if you don't mind, you can ignore my PM that I sent to you (sorry!!) and answer the questions here, so you can share with others. I want to break into Mangas and I've noticed that mangas and comics seem to use the same script techniques, am I right? Now Sai said some wonderful stuff about show on another thread, but I was wondering if you could give your take on showing stuff through the writing process. Also it seems the writer uses almost the same writing tech as novel writing, i.e character dev, dialogue, plots, etc. Am I right? And how does one start the script? THanks so much ahead of time!!

kim

[Axler]

Well...you start the script with: "Page One".

If you don't envision the first page as a splash, then it would be "Page One, Panel One".

But to be frank, if your focus is breaking in with one of the major comics publishers, submitting a full script over the transom will most likely be the proverbial exercise in futility.

The best bet if you're following that route is to work up three story plot/premises, keep them to one page each and submit them to the editor.

Choose one of the plots and write a sample script page, breaking it down into panels, complete with captions and dialogue balloons.

This is assuming you have no prior published comics credentials. If you do, then you can skip the sample script page step and send either a photocopy of the printed comics page or the entire thing.

[Dancre]

Cool!! i hope to have my novel published first though, then I'll jump on the manga, since I finished the novel today. YEH!!

CAn you talk about the best way to show in comic? And are comics and Manga written the same way? thanks!!!

[Axler]

CAn you talk about the best way to show in comic? And are comics and Manga written the same way? thanks!!!

Not quite sure what you mean by "best way to show"...as for comics and manga being written in the same way, I would assume so, since they share the same format.

[wordmonkey]

Cool!! i hope to have my novel published first though, then I'll jump on the manga, since I finished the novel today. YEH!!

CAn you talk about the best way to show in comic? And are comics and Manga written the same way? thanks!!!

OK, first off, there's no difference between the way you write a Manga and a westrn comic. Every technical aspect is the same. There is also nothing magical about Manga. Manga is just a Japanese comic.

Also, all the rules about showing and not telling, EVERYTHING that holds true for telling a story in prose hold true here.

However, what you can do is get more subtle. An example would be that if you have a murder scene, you can leave a clue in the scene that the hero doesn't see, but the reader does. It's all there visually, but you are writing to tell the ARTIST to put it there. In a similar way, you can use color in a way that you couldn't with straight prose. You can give instruction to the colorist to use specific colors for scenes or characters. A little research on color theory and you can set moods in a very subtle way, or give clues to the secret identity of a character by surrounding them with visual/color cues.

I could go on, but the "How To" thread covers a great deal of this. I know that some here have been on there and found a great deal of useful info that has helped them out.

Also, while he might be gracious and answer all your questions, if you wanna pick Axler's brain, you ought to buy his book. If you want free advice, there is a lot here and the majority of it is excellent. But that's just my take. :D

[Dancre]

thanks for answering my questions!! And I do plan to buy his book. And I've been studying that thread, it is wonderful!!!

kim

[Dancre]

Not quite sure what you mean by "best way to show"...as for comics and manga being written in the same way, I would assume so, since they share the same format.

cool. I guess what I mean is I've seen some comics on amature boards and everything is telling what is happening in the pictures instead of showing what is happening. It's like reading a book from PA. An example is an amatured artist drew one panel where she was lying in bed and looking at a picture of her boyfriend, and in the second panel she heard mom knock on the door, panel 3 had the girl back in bed asleep with a note saying 'pretend' and an arrow pointing to it. Now that would be telling, right? So showing would be taking each panel step by step showing the girl hearing the knock, pulling the covers over her head and showing her asleep, yes?

kim

[Tallymark]

One doesn't have to show every step, as long as you make things clear--think about different camera shots in a movie. There's a lot of way you could depict a scene like that--for example, you could have the knock panel, have the back in bed asleep panel (minus the 'pretend' label), and then in the panel after the mother leaves, have the girl have one eye open and looking back towards the door, like she's making sure the coast is clear. Without stating it, this implies to the reader that she wasn't really asleep. You could also skip everything before the knock entirely; have the mother knock, look in, see she's asleep, leave, and then the girl pulls out the picture and sighs dreamily. Etc, etc. You just want to be clear without showing every single step--the reader can make the jump from one panel to the next.

The 'descriptive label' thing is actually something I have seen in some manga before; my impression is that it's for a sort of 'cute' effect, but it probably does come across as lazy to some people (as is, it was always in manga that to me seemed to be for a younger audience).

And like wordmonkey said, there's no real distinction between manga and regular comics--all manga really is is an imported comic. There are certain stylistic trends common to most manga, especially artistic trends (this is where 'american manga' comes in), but when it comes down to it, a comic is a comic. Now, the one thing that is different is the way they handle things in Japan--in Japan, making a comic is usually a one-man show; the writer and artist are the same person, they create and draw the whole thing, usually in weekly installments. So script formating is not an issue.

But, presumably, you'll be submitting to an american publisher, so it's best to do things their way. You have a story, and you need to convey that story to the artist--you'll have a script that includes dialouge, and a panel-by-panel description of what happens. Some scripts are hyper detailed, others are sparse...depends what you need.

This is why you don't really see "How to write manga" books...it's the same principle as american comics. All that's truly different about a manga is the art style, which is the artists deal, not the writers. Maybe one could argue that there's certain story trends to manga also, but that has nothing to do with how you format that story.

Like has been said, you're basically doing a novel, except that the bulk of your narrative will be in image form. This has strengths and weaknesses--you'll want to take advantage of its strengths.

Oh, and thanks for the tip about the McCloud book; guess I'll have to hunt down the technical details someplace else. ^_^

[wordmonkey]

I probably ought to take a look at the McCloud book sometime; mostly I'm not too into guide books, but I've heard good things about that one. A question to those who've read it--does it include some of the nitty gritty technical details? Like, right now I'm twisting my hair about dumb things like, what is that font that most comics use, and, what size do they usually use it at? What size paper does the artist usually draw on? How much bleed space do I need? Alas, those kinds of details are probably more on the art side of things than the writing side...

There is no set font for comics. But if you go looking in font lists and CDs, you will usually find one called Comic Sans (or a variation of that name). But really, go with one that works. I have book that is in negotiations to be picked up by a publisher. It's set in Victorian Europe. My letterer used a classical script type font for the narrative blurn boxes at the start, then switched something more regular for voices. Publisher loved it and it added to the tone. There are no set rules. As long as it compliments and doesn't distract, you are fine.

Paper size. Google comic book supplies. You will even find supplies marked out to accommodate our needs. However, for wstern books, you have the standard comic book size, but you'll find most artist work double that size and scale down. This makes the art tighter and allows the artist to work in more detail if they want.

Standard print bleed is one eighth of an inch, so if you are working double size, that would be a quarter inch. That means on ever side you add that amount of bleed.

Hope that helps.

[wordmonkey]

cool. I guess what I mean is I've seen some comics on amature boards and everything is telling what is happening in the pictures instead of showing what is happening. It's like reading a book from PA. An example is an amatured artist drew one panel where she was lying in bed and looking at a picture of her boyfriend, and in the second panel she heard mom knock on the door, panel 3 had the girl back in bed asleep with a note saying 'pretend' and an arrow pointing to it. Now that would be telling, right? So showing would be taking each panel step by step showing the girl hearing the knock, pulling the covers over her head and showing her asleep, yes?

No. You'd show less.

Like has been said, there is a style that adds the lables. But what you want to do is convey the major beats of the story as it goes. Between each panel you have a natural break and the reader knows that events happen between the panels ad can mentally fill in the gaps. It's the narrative verson of animation. When you draw animation cels, you don't draw every aspec of motion, you jump it along and let the fact that the eye will fill in the blanks smooth it out. Same thing here.

[Axler]

Unlike the screenplay format, you employ a form of visual shorthand when you craft a comics script.

[Dancre]

You guys are way tooo cool!! Thank you all! You know, it seems sooooo much easier to understand allll of this due to me knowing how to write and knowing the rules. Once I get my novel cleaned and shined, I may just use it to turn it into a manga. Thank you all so very, very much!!!

kim

[Lindo]

I wouldn't trust anybody who'd write a book on how to write comics.
Now if there is a COMIC on how to do comics, I might have to get a copy.

[wordmonkey]

I wouldn't trust anybody who'd write a book on how to write comics.
Now if there is a COMIC on how to do comics, I might have to get a copy.

There are lots of them. Even comics on how NOT to write comics.

Just pop in your local comic book store, pick up a handful of comics and go read. Study, and learn. If you read ANY comic and look at the way it's all pulled together you will learn everything you need to know.

[Axler]

I wouldn't trust anybody who'd write a book on how to write comics.
Now if there is a COMIC on how to do comics, I might have to get a copy.

What a coincidence...I wouldn't trust anybody who'd trawl a writer's site looking for comics artists.

Now if there is a COMIC on how to do comics, I might have to get a copy.

As I recall, uber-swipist Rich Buckler and his old pal, Chip Goodman published a number of COMICS on how to do comics in the 1980s and early 1990s.

Solson Publications, {in}famously one of the worst of the worst black and white independents, put out comics on how to do comics.

The advice those publications offered is reknowned to this day as the best way NOT to get into comics...and presumably not compete with Buckler and Goodman.

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/41147269936.1.gif

If that's what you're looking for, issues can still be found in the 25 cent bin...or in southern outhouses.

[Dancre]

I think Lindo's trying to make a joke. Comics are made with pictures not words. So he wouldn't trust anyone who wrote comics. Get it? Write comics? hehe. I thought it was funny.

<-- Read the little quote a writer sent to me that's under my name. LOL!!!


kim

[wordmonkey]

What a coincidence...I wouldn't trust anybody who'd trawl a writer's site looking for comics artists.

Well, I don't know about that. But it isn't exactly the first place I'd think to look. That said, he got a bite!

As I recall, uber-swipist Rich Buckler and his old pal, Chip Goodman published a number of COMICS on how to do comics in the 1980s and early 1990s.

Solson Publications, one of the worst of the worst, offering advice that is reknowned to this day as the best way NOT to get into comics...and presumably not compete with Buckler and Goodman.

Now you say this, I remember there is something you can find online, done by a Disney Comics guy. I had it book marked on my old computer but until I get that fixed, can't pass it on.

If that's what you're looking for, issues can still be found in the 25 cent bin...or in southern outhouses.

HEY! We have indoor plumbing and everything down here now. It's only like the third world for half of the year these days.

[Lindo]

Actually, more than one bite. Private messages...I'm starting to see why people use them. This stuff isn't as compartmentalized as some might insist on.

And I've given up on joking around here. It end up just making me sad watching people thrash around chewing on things that weren't meant to be.

Anyway, asking the question here got me referred to some cool sites full of neat artwork. So thanks to those interested in positive co-operation.

[wordmonkey]

And I've given up on joking around here. It end up just making me sad watching people thrash around chewing on things that weren't meant to be.

Don't give up on the jesting, dude.

Remember, humor at best, is a subjective thing. What tickles you could leave others scratching their heads. And what tickles me, generally insults someone else.

And even with the best emoticons, some folks just don't get what they would obviously laugh at if they saw you deliver the same line, face to face.

Of course, in fairness, there are some right miserable buggers as well.

Glad you seem to have found your artist. Not sure what your level of experience is, (so if this advice is obvious or a done deal, please feel free to ignore it) but try and spend some time brainstorming the look of the characters and world with the artist. I love this part, throwing ideas back and forth. It always makes for a richer world and usually gives me additional ideas for the writing.

[Axler]

Well, as the saying goes (I think it's attributed to The Joker): "If you have to explain a joke, then there is no joke."

[Dancre]

Actually, more than one bite. Private messages...I'm starting to see why people use them. This stuff isn't as compartmentalized as some might insist on.

And I've given up on joking around here. It end up just making me sad watching people thrash around chewing on things that weren't meant to be.

Anyway, asking the question here got me referred to some cool sites full of neat artwork. So thanks to those interested in positive co-operation.

LOOK AT ME, LOOk AT ME!! :hooray: I got the joke, haha!! Took me awhile, but when I did, I groaned. You have wayyy to much time on your hands, dude!! LOL!!!

kim

[UKREVIEWER]

And this goes for manga writers too ;).

Alan Moore's Writing for Comics- Alright, this one isn't the best how-to book. It's advice is pretty basic, but if you're a big fan of Alan Moore (and really, who isn't? ;) ) then it's neat to see the behind the scenes look at how he writes comics, and that even a genius has fears and insecurities.

The DC Guide to Writing Comics- Denny O'Neil- I'm still reading this one right now. So far I'm skipping through a lot of stuff (he spends much of the first chapter defining terms that I'm already familar with), but it might be good for someone writing comics for the first time. He's also a very good writer, and writes everything in a friendly, easy to understand way.

Thanks for sharing this, since I've never reviewed books of this genre and now I'm interested! (I love Manga!)

[Axler]

Just in case anybody is interested and has a credit card that needs some exercisin'--

http://www.indyplanet.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=47&products_id=407&osCsid=62aaaf1a09f72cfcac787cf523ee9a26