a note from a slush pile reader

[Lilybiz]

Hi all,

I usually lurk about the novel writing threads, but sometimes I put a note in here if I think I have anything to contribute.

I'm not a screenwriter. I write essays and fiction. I've studied screenwriting, but don't pursue it professionally. I do some script consulting, and have been doing screenplay coverage for a small agency in Hollywood for a few years (discovered the script that was their first sale). I've been a professional actor for almost 30 years, and have dissected just about every kind of script you can imagine.

I recently spent a day rejecting scripts for the agency. I had been hoping to find good stuff, but I didn't.

There's a huge pile to get through, and this is a boutique agency (they must have to go through the slush with a shovel at ICM). A lot gets rejected for the usual reasons: no concept of structure or format, stiff dialogue, bland characters, the writer can't spell or punctuate...

But what breaks my heart is when I have to reject good writing. More than once the other day I came across well-structured scripts with interesting characters and snappy dialogue--professional work. But...not enough going on.

I don't know how other agencies do it. The one I read for goes by this method:
Read the first ten pages.
If the first ten pages hook you, read the last ten.
If the first ten and last ten are great (not good, but great), go back and start reading again from page eleven...until the script lets you down.
If the script never lets you down--never--it's a keeper. Keepers are rare.

If something big doesn't happen in the first ten pages--and I mean something HUGE--it's an automatic reject. By order of the agency's owner.

Stakes, please. Give your reader--your audience--high stakes, as high as possible, from the beginning.

Your first ten pages must be gripping. It doesn't have to be action, it can be emotionally gripping, or mysterious, or something exciting that works for your audience. Just get hold of them and don't let go.

My two cents.

[zeprosnepsid]

Always a good point and I totally agree with you. I've worked a little as a reader and I would read till I got bored then throw it out. And I would throw things out for all the regular reasons - wrong format, nothing happening in the first ten pages, voice over, breaking the fourth wall, lack of readable english -- but as much as I and other people tell burgeoning screenwriters this is the case, many still seem convinced that they can do what they want and we'll sense how brilliant their script is and reading the whole thing!

But yeah, reading is grueling. I feel for you =)

[dpaterso]

Yeah, we really feel for you guys! Group hug!

:e2grouphu

Thanks for the good advice. :)

-Derek

[Julie Worth]

If the first ten and last ten are great (not good, but great), go back and start reading again from page eleven...until the script lets you down.
If the script never lets you down--never--it's a keeper.

Thanks, Petrea!

Now I'm wondering if any readers of novel submissions do the same thing. (I have a beta reader--a former journalist--who confessed to this recently. She was telling me she liked the ending, and I was surprised that she had read it so quickly. So she admitted that she reads the last chapter first.)

[Bmwhtly]

A good point. After all it makes sense: if the script doesn't grip you, the film wouldn't either.
Since I was discussing Clerks in the other thread, a story about the first screening comes to mind.
Harvey Weinstein walked out of the first screening, as it happens whichever colleague he was with didn't. That colleague had to convince Weinstein to watch it again and not leave until he heard '37'. If he wanted to leave after that, he could. Obviously, once he reached that point he didn't leave and ended up buying the thing.

My point is, when you submit a script, you can't tell the agent to 'bear with the first ten pages, the good stuff starts on page 12.'
Hook 'em and keep reeling.

[DanielD]

Great advice,Petrea.
I read this in Syd Fields book,Screenplay.
He stated that, the first ten pages, are crucial,along with the final ten.
He strongly emphasised this.
Since reading this, I have always timed films,noting at what point my interest begins to wane.
He says, you need to set up the story within the first
ten pages.
Though, I think fithteen pages is sometimes needed.
Some films are set up,within the first few pages.
Eg: Lord of the Rings ,comes to mind.
Good to hear your advice on what's expected,when submitting Scripts.
Your right though.
When I have read certain scripts from successful films,I couldn't stop reading.
Even films, I had not seen before.
Once I was hooked,I couldn't stop.
They just had that something, which kept my interest,and the pages turning.
Take care .
Daniel

[scripter1]

thank you for putting it up.

I would like some clarification / more details about this comment though.

"But...not enough going on."

You mean story right? That the story lacks substance, depth, staying power, something of that nature.

Because I know quite a few writers that will read that and then try to add FLUFF to beef up the story. Don't want that.

[NikeeGoddess]

I read this in Syd Fields book,Screenplay.
He stated that, the first ten pages, are crucial,along with the final ten.

going back to adaptation - the non-writing twin followed the advice of robert mckee who said in his seminar -- people only remember the ending and getting his first script sold and made -- but it was the flick itself that turned into a wacked final 10 minutes that was totally went the total opposite surprising most and making most people say, huh?!

[zeprosnepsid]

I don't remember the exact quote, but George Lucas said something like if you have a good first 10 minutes and a good last 20 minutes then audiences will forgive (and forget) everything in between.

[icerose]

Thanks for the advice. I think I might actually have two scripts that would pass at this point. I am having trouble finding the right home though.

[Lilybiz]

thank you for putting it up.

I would like some clarification / more details about this comment though.

"But...not enough going on."

You mean story right? That the story lacks substance, depth, staying power, something of that nature.

Because I know quite a few writers that will read that and then try to add FLUFF to beef up the story. Don't want that.



In a way, scripter1, I mean events. Something has to happen to your MC that throws him or her, big-time, into action, therefore throwing us (audience), into the story. Mamet says story is about your hero trying to put his disordered world back into order, and I think that's a good way to look at it. So if we're going to see the world in order, fine, but it's got to be thrust into disorder (perhaps by an event?) in the first ten pages. Or sooner.

Another way to look at it is, the hero has to want something badly. (Putting his/her world back in order, maybe.)

[Lilybiz]

Thanks, Petrea!

Now I'm wondering if any readers of novel submissions do the same thing. (I have a beta reader--a former journalist--who confessed to this recently. She was telling me she liked the ending, and I was surprised that she had read it so quickly. So she admitted that she reads the last chapter first.)

I don't know about this, Julie, but it's a good idea for us novel writers to keep in mind, don't you think? At least Miss Snark thinks we ought to hook them at the beginning.

[Plot Device]

Awesome thread, Petrea! Thanks! :cool:

[scripter1]

"In a way, scripter1, I mean events. Something has to happen to your MC that throws him or her, big-time, into action, therefore throwing us (audience), into the story. Mamet says story is about your hero trying to put his disordered world back into order, and I think that's a good way to look at it. So if we're going to see the world in order, fine, but it's got to be thrust into disorder (perhaps by an event?) in the first ten pages. Or sooner.

Another way to look at it is, the hero has to want something badly. (Putting his/her world back in order, maybe.)"

I'll accept EVENTS as something that a script needs going on.

I would describe them as the various challenges that the characters face that bring about change. Different EVENTS/SITUATIONS will force a character to face a flaw or use a trait/skill in order to advance towards the goal.

As writers we need to make sure that we are challenging our characters.

Bill Martell has a great article about this, I think it's called something like The Worse that COULD happen. He uses the example of Indiana Jones and the lost Ark. And ANY Indy movie is a perfect example of this.

Jones pulls the idol of the scale. The sand isn't correct and darts fly, then the boulder comes, then his assistant takes the idol and leaves him stranded. SO he jumps, doesn't quite make it, then that wall slams down, AND THEN finally, when he's safe, there is the evil guy waiting to take the idol.

In almost EVERY sequence the story follows that pattern, things start out bad and then gradually get really, really bad.

AND what is interesting to note is that that whole sequence of events could be writen out in about half a page, or less.
(I don't know how Lucas and Spielburg wrote it but I would frag it and action stack it.)

So, depending on the character's arc we need to develop these sequences of events so that the Protag is constantly challenged.

Careful now, don't go OVERBOARD.
TOO Much going on and the story will lose believablity.

[Lilybiz]

I'll accept EVENTS as something that a script needs going on.

I would describe them as the various challenges that the characters face that bring about change. Different EVENTS/SITUATIONS will force a character to face a flaw or use a trait/skill in order to advance towards the goal.

As writers we need to make sure that we are challenging our characters.



Yes, scripter1. I'd add that not every script is an action story, so to clarify: when I say "events" I don't mean necessarily Indiana Jones-style events (though those are good). An event can be some type of emotional upheaval. The thing is, the stakes have to mean the world to the characters or they won't mean anything to us.

Another point I should mention: it's not my job to read these scripts with an artistic eye. If it were, things might be different. I'm reading on behalf of an agency that's looking for scripts to market to production companies. I presume, when people send their scripts to Hollywood agencies, they're looking to sell them. So we're talking a mercenary point of view here.

[Joe270]

Great point of view. Thanks for the insight.

That said, I notice the same thing in the SYW forum. I see where the story fails, so why can't I see that in my own?

Man, we are such narcissitic jerks.

[dpaterso]

(I don't know how Lucas and Spielburg wrote it but I would frag it and action stack it.)
That Lawrence Kasdan guy needs to get his act together.
http://www.scifiscripts.com/scripts/Indiana1.txt

-Derek

[SpookyWriter]

Hi,

That was very cool of you to show us an insiders glimpse of how the business works. I don't write scripts and yet, I found your message very stimulating and insightful.

Thanks for sharing,

Spooky

[Axeminister]

The thing is, the stakes have to mean the world to the characters or they won't mean anything to us.
Excellent sentence.

Axe

[Jamesaritchie]

I've read a lot of novel slush, and I simply read straight through until something stops me from reading. But many readers do flip back and read the end. No two slush readers perform the job in the same manner all the way through, but however the overall reading is done, if the opening doesn't grab a reader, the novel stands no chance.

For me, the difference between a novel and a script is that I find almost all scripts, even the good ones, boring. I think it takes a different talent to read scripts. You have to see past the words on the page to the movie that will be made from these words. Not everyone can do this, and many good scripts get rejected because of it.

[Klazart]

no voice overs at all?

Is that really an automatic rejection, even if the script is good?

I mean a lot of movies these days start with a voice over.

[Lilybiz]

Kasdan isn't a first-time, untried writer without a track record.

Voice-overs are a tough sell, so just be careful with them. They're not impossible, but I do kind of bristle when I see them. For me they're not an automatic 'no.' Make sure they're not just dull exposition, but useful character development, or necessary, or at least funny.

James: I don't know if it's talent, but reading scripts is indeed different than reading novels, and this brings up another point. Some screen writers forget (and these, too, go in the reject pile) that cinema is a *visual* medium. It takes a different kind of skill to write a screenplay than to write a novel. The screenplay is not the final product, as is the novel. The screenplay is the blueprint for the final product. Character shows through action. The writer can't tell us what people are thinking and feeling, as a novel writer can. So actions, rather than emotions, must be described.

Yet you have to keep description to a minimum. Even the least experienced producer knows, when he looks at a page full of description (as opposed to dialogue), this might be the work of an amateur. How do you do it? The best screenwriters (like the best novelists) know how to use one word to say many things. They know how to use dialogue to convey character. The really, really good screenwriters dazzle me. It's one of the reasons I read screenplay slush--because I learn so much from it.

[jonpiper]

In a way, scripter1, I mean events. Something has to happen to your MC that throws him or her, big-time, into action, therefore throwing us (audience), into the story. Mamet says story is about your hero trying to put his disordered world back into order, and I think that's a good way to look at it. So if we're going to see the world in order, fine, but it's got to be thrust into disorder (perhaps by an event?) in the first ten pages. Or sooner.
Another way to look at it is, the hero has to want something badly. (Putting his/her world back in order, maybe.)

I'm a bit confused, because I thought that the event that throws him or her, big-time, into action, therefore throwing us (audience), into the story was the plot point at the end of ACT 1, around page thirty?

[Lilybiz]

I'm a bit confused, because I thought that the event that throws him or her, big-time, into action, therefore throwing us (audience), into the story was the plot point at the end of ACT 1, around page thirty?

You need a plot point at the end of Act I, of course. But if someone's telling you not to have anything big happen until page 30, that someone is steering you wrong.

Look again at whatever manual or instructions you're reading. Surely your character is already in the action, big-time, by page 10. The plot point around page 30 often changes the course of things in some inevitable way. But if your instructor is telling you you've got 30 pages to establish history and character, or for your MC to just hang around...well, every slush pile reader already threw your script into the "no" pile 20 pages before anything happened.

Okay, if your writing is brilliant, they read 15 pages before they put it in the "no" pile.

[jonpiper]

Thanks for the clarification, Petrea.

[Williebee]

Miss Petrea,

Thank you.

[Plot Device]

I have a voice-over around page 70. So if you toss my script by page 10, it wasn't because of voice-over.

[Jamesaritchie]

I'm a bit confused, because I thought that the event that throws him or her, big-time, into action, therefore throwing us (audience), into the story was the plot point at the end of ACT 1, around page thirty?

I think this is why reading scripts of the kind you want to write is so vitally important. Page thirty is thirty minutes into the movie, and the protag had better get thrown into the action well before this.

[Angelinity]

great thread, thanks for the insights!

[Plot Device]

Oh well, I'm doomed.

[Lilybiz]

Thanks Angelinity and Williebee, my hope is to be useful. By the way, if you click on Williebee's link, be sure you've got half an hour or so set aside. I couldn't stop reading. Good example of hooking, even without a lot of action (it's not a screenplay, but it hooked me). He set up a question and we've just got to know the answer.

FYI, I am only one reader. I am not the industry.

Why doomed, Plot Device? PM me, if I can be of help.

[blacbird]

I don't remember the exact quote, but George Lucas said something like if you have a good first 10 minutes and a good last 20 minutes then audiences will forgive (and forget) everything in between.

Judging from the last three Star Wars movies, George might want to rethink this idea.

caw

[SpookyWriter]

Judging from the last three Star Wars movies, George might want to rethink this idea.

caw:Shrug: But George is rich and powerful. He's the leader of the freeworld. Oppss... wrong georgie. We must not mix our pudding.

[jonpiper]

I think this is why reading scripts of the kind you want to write is so vitally important. Page thirty is thirty minutes into the movie, and the protag had better get thrown into the action well before this.

Right. I was thinking only of the event that throws us into Act 2 and neglecting the action, physical and emotional, that should carry us through the first act.

If we can't grab Petrea's -- or other reader's -- interest in the first ten pages, it sounds like she'll never get to the end of the first act.

Petrea, you said you speak only for yourself. But in your experience, is this how the majority of Reader's look at a script?

Thanks, great thread.

[Plot Device]

Thanks Angelinity and Williebee, my hope is to be useful. By the way, if you click on Williebee's link, be sure you've got half an hour or so set aside. I couldn't stop reading. Good example of hooking, even without a lot of action (it's not a screenplay, but it hooked me). He set up a question and we've just got to know the answer.

FYI, I am only one reader. I am not the industry.

Why doomed, Plot Device? PM me, if I can be of help.

I sent you a PM. :) Thanks!


The gist is, I don't have an EARTH-SHATTERING and totaly HOLY SHYTE moment at all in my first ten. I think I have a small hook or two in that first ten, but not a five-alarm one. So I'm doomed. :(






Right. I was thinking only of the event that throws us into Act 2 and neglecting the action, physical and emotional, that should carry us through the first act.

I defintiely have my inciting moment by Page 25. But .............



If we can't grab Petrea's -- or other reader's -- interest in the first ten pages, it sounds like she'll never get to the end of the first act.

My suspicion is it's all a matter of degree. I don't have a five-alarm fire in the first ten, but I have maybe a half of an alarm in that first ten. One reader might feel that half of an alarm is enough. And another might want to see no less than three alarms or he tosses it. I guess you need to catch the reader on a good day.


Prayer probably helps.

[Lilybiz]

Petrea, you said you speak only for yourself. But in your experience, is this how the majority of Reader's look at a script?

Thanks, great thread.

I'm talking about the agency slush pile, so yeah, that's probably the majority. I might even be more gentle than other readers because I'm a writer. The pile is huge. There has to be a way of getting through it and finding only the very best stuff.

When you talk about reading a script at a production company, solicited from an established, represented writer, it probably gets a full read with complete coverage.

[zeprosnepsid]

I know at least a half dozen readers and they all read pretty much the same way as petrea....

[scripter1]

is talking about the INCITING INCIDENT.
It is the event that shatters the protags nice, quiet, safe world and propels them into action.
It is the step from act 1 into the major story portion of act 2.

The thing is, OTHER events need to happen to bring about this moment.
It doesn't occur in a vacume. Each major plot point is set up and created by the series of events that come before it.

Just like we can't have a horrible day at work and cuss out our boss causing us to lose our job if we didn't get out of bed with a hangover earlier that morning.

Yes indeed, not every film is Indiana Jones. (and silly me I didn't look up the script. yuck. If I were a reader getting that script for the first time I would have an immediate bias against it because of all the black.
And I always thought that Lucas had written it. I'll always say that Lucas is a great IDEA man but only a decent storyteller and a not so great writer.)

Each genre will have it's own pattern of escalating the story through events. Horror ups the violence or gore of the kills, comedy increases the jokes, dramas increase the conflict or the emotion, ect.

Plot, you have to find the hook moment that is RIGHT for your story.
It doesn't have to be a blow your mind moment, just something that matches the tone and impact of your story that will get the reader wanting more. It may be a tender liking to the MC.
It may be a desire to see a failing character work towards success.
It may be to have a question answered. Etc.

Hmm, consider My Big Fat Greek Wedding. I don't remember anything earth shattering in the first ten minutes. I remember funny characters that made me laugh and a bitter sweet connection with the main character. It was THAT kind of story. Didn't need a huge hook.

SOME scripts do, even if they aren't high octane action flicks.
This is why you have to look at your story from different POV's and work it several different ways until you kind of just hit that magic mark.

All right, it's article time.

[Plot Device]

Plot, you have to find the hook moment that is RIGHT for your story.It doesn't have to be a blow your mind moment, just something that matches the tone and impact of your story that will get the reader wanting more. It may be a tender liking to the MC. It may be a desire to see a failing character work towards success. It may be to have a question answered. Etc.

I have "a" hook in that first ten. But it might not be enough. I am planning to post the new-and-improved first ten in SYW in another day or two. So when that happens, let the shredding begin.

Hmm, consider My Big Fat Greek Wedding. I don't remember anything earth shattering in the first ten minutes. I remember funny characters that made me laugh and a bitter sweet connection with the main character. It was THAT kind of story. Didn't need a huge hook.

But, the script for MBFGW didn't make it past the readers. So when it was rejected for the last time, Nia Vardalos reworked her movie script into a one-woman stage play that she performed live in a Chicago(?) dinner theatre. And then Tom Hanks' wife saw the play and loved it and THEN she found out it was originally a movie scipt and THAT is how that film came into being. Five million dollar budget. Quarter-billion dollar domestic box office take. This whole thread isn't about the clever ways that certain otherwise rejectable scripts got through the back door. This thread is about the grueling firing squad of the Hollywood readers who are trigger-happy with the rejection stamp.

This thread is about that first ten. And my first ten most likely isn't powerful enough.

[jonpiper]

Jonpiper is talking about the INCITING INCIDENT.
It is the event that shatters the protags nice, quiet, safe world and propels them into action.
It is the step from act 1 into the major story portion of act 2.

The thing is, OTHER events need to happen to bring about this moment.
It doesn't occur in a vacume. Each major plot point is set up and created by the series of events that come before it.


Exactly. I see it now. You must hook most readers in the first ten pages. If you don't, you won't get most Readers to cover your otherwise fantastic spec script.

In the case of Greek Wedding, Hanks' wife was a captive audience at the play, forced to look past the first ten. She couldn't very well walk out of the dinner presentation.

Plot, you say your first ten probably isn't powerful enough. As has been mentioned, look for emotional action as well as physical action. And of course first ten must be a hook that drives the story forward while it sets up the inciting incident. Not action for the sake of action -- I THINK.

[Lilybiz]

Scripter1 has some good points. It's got to be right for your story, and not every flick is an action flick. Thanks for the term, Scripter1: "inciting incident."

In "10", Dudley Moore sees Bo Derek. Inciting incident. You've got great dialogue and great characters, so for him to see her is all you need.

In "Never Cry Wolf," Charles Martin Smith (Tyler) is already in the thick of things when the story opens--he's on his way to the arctic on a train. We don't see the back story, he tells it--in Voice-Over. This film is full of voice-over. They pull it off in a compelling man-seeking-his-inner-beast story. The inciting incident in the tenth minute doesn't incite so much as it promises thrills to come: the plane Smith flies in to his remote camp loses engine power over the wilderness. The pilot (Brian Dennehy) hands over the controls to Tyler and goes out on the wing. Tyler panics, but manages, in a frightening moment, to steer the plane away from a mountainside.

In a script I rejected the other day (I'll change a few details), the MC, a high school kid, wasn't performing well on the football team. His coach kicked him off the team. It didn't work as an inciting incident because the kid didn't seem to care that much. He was bummed out, but not brokenhearted. At home his mom, a woman with a lot of personality, had her girlfriends over and they were getting her ready for a date with a new guy. The MC wasn't too excited about it.

Those were the first ten pages. The characters were well-drawn, the dialogue was snappy. But why would I watch it? It's not compelling. I read the writer's cover letter--apparently, the MC later discovers he has a life-threatening illness, which is why he underperformed in football. Consider making that discovery in the first ten pages, as an inciting incident. Or the MC having a fight with another kid. Or with his mom. Or something to happen to this kid, something he can care deeply about so we can care deeply about him.

[Lilybiz]

As has been mentioned, look for emotional action as well as physical action. And of course first ten must be a hook that drives the story forward while it sets up the inciting incident. Not action for the sake of action.

Emotional action is just as compelling as physical action--even moreso. Seen one big explosion, seen 'em. all. Characters we can care about, with big needs and wants, work just fine.

[Plot Device]

My understanding of the "inciting incident" is that it's THEEEE situation that usually falls around the close of Act 1 and propells the main protag forward into his arc.

While the first ten CAN have the "inciting incident," it rarely happens that soon. So writers are pressured to try and shove OTHER STUFF into that first ten, PRELIMINARY STUFF that needs to be of the five-alarm caliber to avoid a reader trashing it.

[Plot Device]

In fact, here's what wiki has to say about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plotline

Exposition
Main article: Exposition (plot device)
In the exposition, the background information that is needed to understand the story properly is provided. Such information includes the protagonist, the antagonist, the basic conflict, the setting, and so forth.

The exposition ends with the inciting moment, which is the single incident in the story's action without which there would be no story. The inciting moment sets the remainder of the story in motion beginning with the second act, the rising action.
So, the "iniciting incident" (I always prefer "inciting moment" myself but everyone else here is more into calling it the "inciting incident") is the central focus on Act 1, and USUALLY (but not always) the CLOSE of Act 1.

[Lilybiz]

My understanding of the "inciting incident" is that it's THEEEE situation that usually falls around the close of Act 1 and propells the main protag forward into his arc.

While the first ten CAN have the "inciting incident," it rarely happens that soon. So writers are pressured to try and shove OTHER STUFF into that first ten, PRELIMINARY STUFF that needs to be of the five-alarm caliber to avoid a reader trashing it.

We may be getting bogged down in terminology here. It doesn't matter what you call it. Yes, you have to have an incident at the close of act one that propels the protag forward. But if your protagonist isn't already propelled forward in the first ten minutes of the story, the audience isn't going to sit for 30 minutes waiting for it. The story has to be going in full swing much sooner, or they've already left.

What keeps you interested? What gets you involved in the protagonist's life? What makes you want to watch? Are you going to sit for 30 minutes watching backstory and character development? Don't you need something to involve you?

Look at films you like. What happens in the first ten minutes?

I'm getting so caught up in this discussion!

[Plot Device]

What keeps you interested? What gets you involved in the protagonist's life? What makes you want to watch?




Umm ... a big-name star???? :D

[Lilybiz]

Umm ... a big-name star???? :D

I hope so, PD. I hope your script is so good that the reader loves it and passes it on to the big agent, and the big agent says "Gotta have it!" They offer you the big bucks, the big star says "Gotta play that part!"

Don't over-worry this. There's an inciting moment at the end of act one, we know that. What are you doing in your first ten pages to compel the reader to read on? The reason I started this thread was because I covered 21 scripts the other day, and I rejected 20, some of which contained decent writing. Those that were decently written just weren't interesting enough. Nothing going on in the beginning to make me want to read on, and most importantly, to make me recommend them to that agent.

[Plot Device]

Actually, I'm thinking of Pretty Woman right now and how Julia Roberts' character Vivian (the hooker with the heart of gold!) started off needing to get rent money or some really mean nasty tough brute was gonna throw her out of her crappy apartment (her goofy roommate blew it all on drugs I think).

Now ... granted, she IS a beautiful woman, and she WAS wearing an outrageously slinky outfit. And I'm sure the sex appeal certainly kept a lot of the GUYS in their movie seats for the ten-minute-plus mark. But I'm not a guy and so I wasn't looking at her "attributes." I was drawn in to her need to make rent money that night.

The inciting moment was another fifteen minutes later when Richard Gere offered her $3,000.00 to be at his beck-and-call for one week straight. (And she accepted.)

[Plot Device]

The reason I started this thread was because I covered 21 scripts the other day, and I rejected 20, some of which contained decent writing. Those that were decently written just weren't interesting enough. Nothing going on in the beginning to make me want to read on, and most importantly, to make me recommend them to that agent.


Well, I'm glad you started this thread. :) (I think most of us are.)

Okay! [insert appropriate curse word here] I'm gonna log off right now and finish the latest rewrite of my script and post the first ten before midnight tonight (East Coast) over in SYW. And lets see if I can pass your test! :cool:

[Plot Device]

What keeps you interested? What gets you involved in the protagonist's life? What makes you want to watch?
Umm ... a big-name star???? :D

I hope so, PD. I hope your script is so good that the reader loves it and passes it on to the big agent, and the big agent says "Gotta have it!" They offer you the big bucks, the big star says "Gotta play that part!"


What I meant by "a big name star" was sometimes I will go and see a film JUST BECAUSE a certain A-list actor is in it. So I have been known to "endure" certain films just because I liked the star.

(So I was making a joke! :D )


Don't over-worry this.


Well .... I guess I AM overworrying it. But .... judging by the repsonse to this thread, maybe I should.

[dpaterso]

Things are gettin' kinda confusing here.

I try to include something interesting in the first 10 pages, along with main character intro. An event. An action. A decision. A dilemma. Defining what the story is about and how the main character will be involved. I regard this as the inciting incident. Since everyone seems to have such a short attention span, 10 pages is my target.

The end of the theoretical Act I is where the main character is committed, the point of no return. I'd hope to get here by page 25-ish.

If that conflicts with the how-to books and Wiki then so be it.

Oh, and remember, it's not the size of the explosion, it's how you use it. :)

-Derek

[Lilybiz]

And, instead of "what makes you want to watch?" I should have said "What compels a reader to read?" --because that's the test you have to pass first. By the time you're watching Julia Roberts, the script has been bought and then some.

Think of it this way:

What's going to make a reader love your script and risk the agent's ridicule by saying: "Read this one! I love it!"
What's going to make that Hollywood agent risk her reputation, taking that script around town to her (perhaps tenuous) connections?
What's going to make producers throw millions at it? Stars want to play the lead? Ticket buyers want to spend half a day's pay to see it?

You'd be amazed how many writers think they can write a screenplay just because they've seen a movie. The fact that you're here on AW, and that you've studied the genre, says you're probably already in the top 10%. Take the extra step to get your script over the reader hump and into the agent's hands, so she can start hawking that beauty around town and get some money people to fall in love with it. Make your first ten pages brilliant, is all I'm sayin'.

[Bravo]

ive never been an actual paid reader, but usually, if i dont like the first page, i wont continue reading.

forget the ten page rule.

make sure that first page is perfect.

youre welcome.

[Lilybiz]

ive never been an actual paid reader, but usually, f i dont like the first page, i wont continue reading.

forget the ten page rule.

make sure that first page is perfect.

youre welcome.

I'm not required to read ten pages. :)

[jonpiper]

I'm not required to read ten pages. :)

I don't blame you. The travel agency promises you a cruise to exotic islands. First stop will be breathtaking, and it will get better from there. You're greeted at the dock by a rat infested steamer. You turn around, not even boarding the ship.;)

[seanie blue]

Petrea's amusement about ICM's slush pile is beautiful. A boutique agency gets the cream of the crop, literature-wise, while ICM deals in blockbusters and star productions. Nobody at ICM knows (or counts) how many unsolicited scripts fall over the transom every day. Hundreds? A thousand? Thousands?

But I'd like to add for what it's worth that writers of small scripts (which might not be the bailiwick of Petrea's boutique) are much more likely to get paid for writing than the writers of big scripts. If you write a Ulee's Gold, for instance, and do a good job of it, you're more likely to get attention (and work), than if you write a Collateral-type script. IMO. The killings, the explosions, the bullets, the crashes . . . these pale compared to deft, telling strokes of character a writer can paint into the reader's mind. "Laurel Canyon" or "The Hours" or even "Monster" are stories which rely on layers of character, and anyone writing a script like this who does a good job will get noticed much more quickly than the good writer who turns in "Die Hard 13" thinking that's what the market is demanding.

Maybe Petrea can argue differently.

Especially on a board like this, with professional writers and editors constantly "targeting" their "work" (or words) to fit a perceived marketplace, there is a tendency to swing one's talents and dedications toward Hollywood, that tinsel dreamland. But I find Hollywood to be remarkably tuned to good writing. Complex characters, and thoughtful exposition rather than clever cliches. And yet writers are seduced by the possibilities of stardom; if only I could have $5 for every instance in which a writer or erstwhile producer sighs and confides to me that she or he has a "fifty million dollar idea for a movie"! Anyone can have an idea for a $50-million blockbuster! Without a star in your pocket or a fat lawyer and cash, your idea for a $50-million blockbuster is utterly useless. Any writer can type out 120 pages of "Die Hardest 14." A jewel written for a sub-million production is much, much harder to find (and create). And a writer working small can carve out an unusual profile and make a living immediately in Tinseltown, doing something she or he loves. How many writers are trying to script "Half Nelson," where the exposition bang is a high school teacher teacher smoking crack? If you turned in "Belle du Jour" word for word to Petrea's boutique, the MS would be in the trash in 7 minutes.

To every writer working in mental ivory or sensual ebony: Keep carving, keep sculpting, remember that the finish is only a burnish of many well-crafted layers. Stay away from thoughts of the sale, or get into cabinet-making. Editors and readers are looking for your peculiar perfection, and as Petrea writes in the start to this thread, you can touch their hearts with your words. Isn't that why you write?

[nmstevens]

I'm a bit confused, because I thought that the event that throws him or her, big-time, into action, therefore throwing us (audience), into the story was the plot point at the end of ACT 1, around page thirty?


Think of a movie, or really any dramatic story as a race.

The first act, essentially is this:

On your mark, get set -- go!

The second act is the race, except for the last lap.

The last lap -- the run to the finish, and who wins and who loses and why, is the third act.

Think of those first ten pages as, "On your mark" -- that is, in a dramatic sense, something has to happen that moves people from wherever they were, whatever they were doing, into the starting gates -- it has to disrupt the normal chain of events and get their trajectory arranged in the appropriate direction.

This is sometimes known as the "inciting incident."

The participants may not even realize it at the time.

The Seven Samurai opens with the Brigands riding up, inspecting the village, deciding to come back later when the crops are ready, a moment overheard by a villager lurking nearby. The samurai who will ultimately fight to defend the village know nothing about it -- but it's this incident that will ultimately result in their being gathered together and will bring them to the village to fight.

In that movie, Kurosawa doesn't wait any ten pages. The inciting incident is virtually the first shot of the movie. Page one. Brigands coming, village in deadly danger. What can they do?

NMS

[Lilybiz]

The killings, the explosions, the bullets, the crashes . . . these pale compared to deft, telling strokes of character a writer can paint into the reader's mind. "Laurel Canyon" or "The Hours" or even "Monster" are stories which rely on layers of character, and anyone writing a script like this who does a good job will get noticed much more quickly than the good writer who turns in "Die Hard 13" thinking that's what the market is demanding.

Maybe Petrea can argue differently......

Any writer can type out 120 pages of "Die Hardest 14." A jewel written for a sub-million production is much, much harder to find (and create).....

If you turned in "Belle du Jour" word for word to Petrea's boutique, the MS would be in the trash in 7 minutes.

To every writer working in mental ivory or sensual ebony: Keep carving, keep sculpting, remember that the finish is only a burnish of many well-crafted layers. Stay away from thoughts of the sale, or get into cabinet-making. Editors and readers are looking for your peculiar perfection, and as Petrea writes in the start to this thread, you can touch their hearts with your words. Isn't that why you write?

I would not argue differently, except for the part about "my" boutique and the trash.

Apparently I haven't been clear.

The agency I read for is looking for good writing. As I said in an earlier post, if you've seen one explosion you've seen 'em all.

[Klazart]

Thanks for all your time aertep. Great thread and lots of useful advice.

I do have a couple of questions though. How do hollywood agents feel about writers from abroad? Is there any point at all sending queries to Hollywood agents from the UK or Ireland or should I be looking for UK agents first?

I guess a lot less films get made over here and hollywood is where the money is. Just wondering if you see any scripts by foreign writers over there, and if so, do any of them ever get accepted?

[Lilybiz]

Thanks for all your time aertep. Great thread and lots of useful advice.

I do have a couple of questions though. How do hollywood agents feel about writers from abroad? Is there any point at all sending queries to Hollywood agents from the UK or Ireland or should I be looking for UK agents first?

I guess a lot less films get made over here and hollywood is where the money is. Just wondering if you see any scripts by foreign writers over there, and if so, do any of them ever get accepted?

You're welcome, Klazart, I'm enjoying this.

I can't speak for all Hollywood agents, because I don't know them all. At my agency there's no differentiation between writers from the US and abroad. I don't think we've had many submitted from UK writers, frankly, but that may be because it's a small agency. Query away. If it's good, it doesn't matter where you're writing.

[jonpiper]

Think of a movie, or really any dramatic story as a race.

The first act, essentially is this:

On your mark, get set -- go!

The second act is the race, except for the last lap.

The last lap -- the run to the finish, and who wins and who loses and why, is the third act.

Think of those first ten pages as, "On your mark" -- that is, in a dramatic sense, something has to happen that moves people from wherever they were, whatever they were doing, into the starting gates -- it has to disrupt the normal chain of events and get their trajectory arranged in the appropriate direction.

This is sometimes known as the "inciting incident."

The participants may not even realize it at the time.

The Seven Samurai opens with the Brigands riding up, inspecting the village, deciding to come back later when the crops are ready, a moment overheard by a villager lurking nearby. The samurai who will ultimately fight to defend the village know nothing about it -- but it's this incident that will ultimately result in their being gathered together and will bring them to the village to fight.

In that movie, Kurosawa doesn't wait any ten pages. The inciting incident is virtually the first shot of the movie. Page one. Brigands coming, village in deadly danger. What can they do?

NMS

Your analogy makes sense. It does seem most good screenplays follow some variation of your race, at least the ones I've read. Most, because there are always exceptions.

A good movie story could begin with Get Set before getting On Your Mark. More Get Set could follow before Go.

Get Set. Introduce a character or two or the setting or both.

On Your Mark. The inciting incident occurs. No more than 10 pages in.

Get Set. More set-up of the story.

Go. The plot point at the end of the Act. This thrusts the story into the second act. Around page 25 or so.

It's becomming clearer and clearer! I think a story written according to a variation of your race would meet Petrea's structural requirement for readability.

[Hollow]

I really like this thread. :) Mostly because I've been stuck on my first 10 pages for like a month. I must have rewritten it at least a dozen times and it still doesn't feel right. What a pain....

[Lilybiz]

Your analogy makes sense. It does seem most good screenplays follow some variation of your race, at least the ones I've read. Most, because there are always exceptions.

A good movie story could begin with Get Set before getting On Your Mark. More Get Set could follow before Go.

Get Set. Introduce a character or two or the setting or both.

On Your Mark. The inciting incident occurs. No more than 10 pages in.

Get Set. More set-up of the story.

Go. The plot point at the end of the Act. This thrusts the story into the second act. Around page 25 or so.

It's becomming clearer and clearer! I think a story written according to a variation of your race would meet Petrea's structural requirement for readability.

Great writers break these rules all the time, but I'd guess they knew them very well before they broke them.

[bluejester12]

Blue Jester's guide to Inciting Incident (II) vs. Plot Point I (PP1) according to Syd Fields' definition.

Of course, these are debatable. The II's do seem to happen within the first 10 pages.



The Matrix
II -- Trinity escapes police by astounding martial arts and gravity defying moves
PP1 - Neo takes the red pill


American Beauty
II --"In a year I will be dead" or the dinner table scene
PP1 - Lester watches Angela do her cheerleading routine.

American Pie
II -- Jim is caught in the act by his parents
PP1 -- The boys make a pact to lose their virginity


There's Something about Mary
II -- the zipper/prom scene
PP1 - Ted decides to find Mary


Chinatown
II - Burly finds out his wife is cheating on him, says he'll kill her
PP1 - The real Mrs. Mulray shows up.


As Good as it Gets
II - Melvin shoves the dog down the garbage chute.
PP1 -- Melvin must take in the dog while Simon recovers.


Die Hard
II - ummmmm, not sure...:Shrug:
PP1 - The terrorists attack.


Die Hard w/ a Vengeance
II - bomb blows up downtown, McClane must stand in Harlem "exposed"
PP1 - McClane and Zeus are paired together by "Simon."


Lethal Weapon
II - Amanda throws herself out a window.
PP1 - Riggs and Murtaugh teamed up


The Incredibles
II - Golden Age action sequence
PP1 - Bob is offered a job as Mr. Incredible


The Wedding Singer
II - Robby is stood up at his wedding
PP1 - Robbie decides to help Julia with her wedding


Ever After
II - Danielle's father dies
PP1 - She meets/argues with the prince


X-men
II - Magneto is sperated from his parents
PP1 - Logan and Rogue meet the X-men, Magneto kidnaps the Senator


Meet the Parents
II - Greg is about to propose
PP1 - Greg's first awkward encounter with Jack

[Plot Device]

Hey, blue jester, that turns my understanding of the inciting incident on its ear. I assumed inciting incident was Luke Sklywalker's aunt and uncle getting murdered and thus forcing him to go along with Obiwan to Alderan afterall. But according to your Syd Field stuff, the II from Star Wars would be the dangerous escape from Princess Leia's captured ship by Artoo and Threepio, and then later, when Luke's aunt and uncle are murdered, we would instead call their murder a Plot Point.

I'm confused. :(

[DanielD]

To blue Jester 12.
I read this too,in Syd Field's book:Screenplay.
Though he stated that, a Screenplay could have numerous plot points.
He said that, they are used to hook into the story and swing it around, into a new direction.

To Plot Device.

I read about the incident in Star Wars as well,though that particular incident, when lukes Aunt and Uncle are murdered was referred to as a Plot point.
As luke, was now confronted with a monumental choice.
Thus, the story proper begins, as Luke(main protagonist) follows his destiny.
I think the incident when the two droids,R2D2 and C3PO escape with the vital documents from Princess Lea,which are to be delivered to the Rebellion(rebel alliance),would be the inciting incident.
As this gets the ball rolling, by setting up the premise of the story.
I am a screenwriting student(with much to learn about format, and dramatic structure ),so please forgive me, for my lack of articulation when contributing.
Daniel.

[bluejester12]

Think of an inciting incident as that hook at the beginning that gets the audience's attention. In Star Wars, I'd say it's the first battle when Leia is captured and PP1 is when his aunt and uncle is killed.

That's what Syd seems to say, and yeah, the word "inciting"" can be confusing.

The important thing is something has to make Luke leave the planet.

[-XL-]

It seems many people throughout this thread are a little confused about the meaning of Inciting Incident.

The Inciting Incident is the moment that disrupts and alters the life of the protagonist, changing their course. (Note that it is something which happens to the protagonist.)

Jester, the examples you've provided do not highlight the Inciting Incidents correctly (at least for the films I've watched enough times to know).

e.g.

THE MATRIX.

In the Matrix the Inciting Incident comes when Neo gets the message on his computer screen to follow the white rabbit. This moment alters the course of his life and propels him towards the first act turning point (blue pill/red pill).

DIE HARD

It's been a while since I've seen it but I'm fairly sure that the I.I. in DIE HARD comes when the terrorists take over the building. This is the plot moment that alters MaClane's course. Later the first act turning point comes when MaClane decides to take on the terrorists killing one and ending up with their explosives. After this he is locked into his quest whereas before he could have simply hidden or surrendered.

[bluejester12]

Like I said, they were according to how I read Syd Field's definition. What you're talking about I refer to as PP1 or the key incident.


What's important is that one understands the structure. Call the terms whatever you want.

[zeprosnepsid]

I would have to agree that I don't think jester's examples represent inciting incidents. I generally agree with this guy: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65145

[creativexec]

There's a huge pile to get through, and this is a boutique agency (they must have to go through the slush with a shovel at ICM). A lot gets rejected for the usual reasons: no concept of structure or format, stiff dialogue, bland characters, the writer can't spell or punctuate...

I don't know how other agencies do it. The one I read for goes by this method: Read the first ten pages. If the first ten pages hook you, read the last ten. If the first ten and last ten are great (not good, but great), go back and start reading again from page eleven...until the script lets you down. If the script never lets you down--never--it's a keeper. Keepers are rare.



Definitely not the way ICM does it. All scripts sent through the Story Department are read from fade in to fade out and reported on. Big agencies use coverage for all sorts of purposes - including casting breakdowns - so a full read is crucial.

:)

[Lilybiz]

I would have to agree that I don't think jester's examples represent inciting incidents. I generally agree with this guy: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65145

This links to a great post, which clarifies a lot. Thanks, Z.

[Lilybiz]

Definitely not the way ICM does it. All scripts sent through the Story Department are read from fade in to fade out and reported on. Big agencies use coverage for all sorts of purposes - including casting breakdowns - so a full read is crucial.

:)

Yeah, I would guess ICM doesn't accept anything "over the transom," and all scripts they read are requested, with signed releases and the whole shebang.

[scripter1]

against the Jester as well.
I would switch things around. PP1 would be those things that lead up to the Inciting Incident. The attacking of the ship and the droids with the documents and Leah's capture are ALL plot points.
They set up Luke's reason for leaving home when his Aunt and Uncle are killed. BUT the story takes it's turn when Luke steps up and is willing to take on his journey.
The I I is directly connected to the Protag.
It is that moment where he/she deciedes to really takes steps and the story is forever altered and set in motion.

There are many plot points that have to happen in order to build up to the Inciting Incident.

It is those preliminary plot points that have to be really interesting.
And you should have one or two in your first five pages.

[icerose]

I think the most important issue is to look and see that plot points need to be happening all the time to keep the story moving.

[scripter1]

it doesn't matter what we call them, or really all too much where we put them as long as they exist and are smartly, and well placed through out the script.

I do think though that in the discussing of them we find new ideas and create a better understanding of the craft.

[nmstevens]

To blue Jester 12.
I read this too,in Syd Field's book:Screenplay.
Though he stated that, a Screenplay could have numerous plot points.
He said that, they are used to hook into the story and swing it around, into a new direction.

To Plot Device.

I read about the incident in Star Wars as well,though that particular incident, when lukes Aunt and Uncle are murdered was referred to as a Plot point.
As luke, was now confronted with a monumental choice.
Thus, the story proper begins, as Luke(main protagonist) follows his destiny.
I think the incident when the two droids,R2D2 and C3PO escape with the vital documents from Princess Lea,which are to be delivered to the Rebellion(rebel alliance),would be the inciting incident.
As this gets the ball rolling, by setting up the premise of the story.
I am a screenwriting student(with much to learn about format, and dramatic structure ),so please forgive me, for my lack of articulation when contributing.
Daniel.


You see, I would pick something else.

Of course, all sorts of things are happening off in the universe -- Darth Vader's attacking the ship, Leia's captured, the droids escape, etc.

But none of that, by itself would ever touch our protagonist. The entire rebellion could, under normal circumstances, have unfolded without his ever getting involved.

No. I think that the "inciting incident" is when he discovers the fragment of the hidden message incide R2.

Before that, he was simply a dreamer. He wanted to go off to the Academy, he dreamed about leaving home -- but he wasn't going anywhere. Meanwhile, off in space, all of this other stuff was happening -- that didn't have anything to do with him.

It took this one event -- the inciting incident -- to bring these two worlds together, to spark him to action. Because he sees the image of Leia, he removes the bolt. Because he removes the bolt, R2 escapes. He must follow -- he tracks him to Ben -- and from that point on, his fate is fixed. Like it or not, he must become what he is destined to be.

NMS

[DanielD]

To nmstevens.
I stand corrected.
It makes a lot of sense,all that going on around Luke, yet he's unaffected until he finds the message fragment.
As I have mentioned on the "An indepth look at the Inciting Incident" thread, I am still having fun and games sorting out, "The wheat from the chaffe".
Or should I say "The Inciting Incident,from among numerous plot points".
I see your point though,and it's a very good one.
I hav'nt seen this movie for quite a while.
Unfortunately,I only have vague memories as to the overall story.
But to be honest, I would probably assume a different event as being the II.
HEY! Im a student.
So I'll have to grab a copy, and go down memory lane.
Many thanks.
Daniel.

[nmstevens]

ive never been an actual paid reader, but usually, if i dont like the first page, i wont continue reading.

forget the ten page rule.

make sure that first page is perfect.

youre welcome.

I worked as a story editor for a NY-based development company for years and, unless I absolutely had to read a screenplay, I would read as little as I possibly could. That was my rule.

That's because I wasn't reading out of a sense of duty. I was looking for something for my company to buy. So basically what would come to me would be scripts that already had a "consider" (-- these days a full-blown "recommend" is rare. Most readers split the difference).

So as far as I was concerned, it was now in the writer's ballpark. It was his job to make me want to read his script.

If, after two or three pages, he had either failed to make me want to read more or (as was often the case) had actually made me *not* want me to read any more -- that was pretty much it. I'd look at the coverage, on the off chance that maybe there was something, like maybe a good premise, buried somewhere further on. But there never was anything that I ever thought was worth buying.

And while for various reasons I sometimes had to read a script cover to cover that I hated after the first couple pages, I never found one that was bad up to page X -- and then suddenly became brilliant.

In my experience, how a script is at the beginning is going to be a pretty good litmus test as to how it's going to be all the way through.

If it's boring, confused, unfocused, no clear story -- in the first ten pages, I would never have any expectation that any of those things would abruptly change five or ten or thirty pages further on.

If I could tell beginning screenwriters anything, it would come down to two things.

One -- a story is about a problem that needs solving.

Two - the story begins on page one.

NMS

[scripter1]

the Inciting Incident in Star Wars is when Lukes family is killed.
Up until that moment he hasn't been really pushed.
He's been nudged yes. Set up, yes.
BUT until he steps into that journey away from home he isn't committed.
The inciting incident is a point of no return.

True indeed that Luke was interested in Leah but he didn't know that getting involved could kill him.
Remember, one of the themes of Star Wars is controlling our emotions to keep us from evil. When Luke sees the bodies he is set on the path of possible vengence. From there on out he will struggle with the two sides of the force.

[Plot Device]

I hav'nt seen this movie for quite a while.
Unfortunately,I only have vague memories as to the overall story.
But to be honest, I would probably assume a different event as being the II.
HEY! Im a student.
So I'll have to grab a copy, and go down memory lane.
Many thanks.
Daniel.


It's an excellent script to study for several reasons:

1) it got nominated for Best Original Screenplay that year
2) it's one of the best and most precise specimens of "the hero's journey" you're going to find out there.
3) that one movie pretty much changed Hollywood forever

So, you might wanna watch --no OWN --the DVD, and download the script.

[Plot Device]

True indeed that Luke was interested in Leah but he didn't know that getting involved could kill him.


Or land him in jail for incest. ;)

[Lilybiz]

If it's boring, confused, unfocused, no clear story -- in the first ten pages, I would never have any expectation that any of those things would abruptly change five or ten or thirty pages further on.

If I could tell beginning screenwriters anything, it would come down to two things.

One -- a story is about a problem that needs solving.

Two - the story begins on page one.

NMS

Great post, NMS.

[DanielD]

To Scripter1.
Good point.
Actually, hearing so many varying opinions about the location of the II, seems to help in adding clarity.
As I hear these opinions, the difference between the Plot points and the actual II are becoming more evident.
But HEY! The threads not over yet.
Who knows what other great pearls,shall be cast into this gathering.
In reference to the II in Star Wars,that's another fine point.
I guess I'll have to really pay more attention.
I'll check that out,upon purchasing that particular DVD.
WOW! This is an interesting thread.

[DanielD]

TO Plot Device.
I had an indepth post locked and loaded,before my computer blew a fuse sending it(the post, not the computer) hurtling off through the ether.
Good advice though.
I will grab a copy of the appropriate Screenplay, and purchase the DVD.
I notice how you mentioned the significance this film has, in portaying the heroes jouney.
It definatley is a fine example.
I think if the question was asked, " HEY! Which are your favourite movies?", to both young and old film buffs,I imagine Star Wars would feature prominantly.
I had a reasonably good read through the script, for that particular Star Wars film, a little while ago.
Although, it turned out to be an earlier draft.
To be honest,I found it quite interesting to see an earlier take on the story,prior to the axe falling.
Take care .
Daniel.

[Plot Device]

TO Plot Device.
I had an indepth post locked and loaded,before my computer blew a fuse sending it(the post, not the computer) hurtling off through the ether.

That woulda been funny had it been the computer. :D



I will grab a copy of the appropriate Screenplay, and purchase the DVD.
I notice how you mentioned the significance this film has, in portaying the heroes jouney.
It definatley is a fine example.

The hero's jounrey is a very versatile thing. And yet, the recent film Eragon (based upon the book of the same name) was repeatedly trashed by critics as being just a rehashing of the same hero's journey fingerprint as the original Star Wars. One critic even said "I liked this movie a lot better back in 1977 when it was called Star Wars."


I think if the question was asked, " HEY! Which are your favourite movies", to both young and old film buffs,I imagine Star Wars would feature prominantly.

It's one of mine. :)


I had a reasonably good read through the script, for that particular Star Wars film, a little while ago.
Although, it turned out to be an earlier draft.
To be honest,I found it quite interesting to see an earlier take on the story,prior to the axe falling.
Take care .
Daniel.

Excelent exercise to compare the progressive drafts one against the other! (I think there are four versions all together--one of which has Hon Solo as a green lizard guy, and another has him as a burley bearded pirate a la Jon Reese Davies, and another has him as a geeky kid Luke's age who is an abused cabin boy on board a heavilly manned pirate ship caled the Millenium Falcon and Hon sneaks Luke on board as a stowaway to help him get to Alderan.)

One of the things I noticed when reading the successive drafts was that there was ONE moment that Lucas kept almost perfectly intact from one version to the next. I think Lucas knew it was an awesome piece of dialogue, and knew it was perfect exactly as written and wanted to make sure he hung onto that one moment no matter what. It was the moment when the two nasty guys at the cantina came up to Luke and harassed him for no reason. It went something like this:

NASTY GUY
(gesturing to his companion)
"He doesn't like you."

LUKE
"Sorry."

NASTY GUY
"I don't like you either! You'd best watch yourself! We're wanted men! I have the death sentence on 12 systems!"

LUKE
"I'll be careful."

NASTY GUY
"YOU'LL BE DEAD!"

And then Obiwan steps in nad tries to diplomaytically difuse the whole situation by saying:

OBIWAN
This little one's hardly worth the trouble. Come, let me get you something to drink.

Nasty Guy freaks out and pulls a blaster. Ben pushes Luke aside and pulls out his light sabre and slices the guy's arm off.

Luke looks up from the floor in awe at the forboding figure of Ben and his glowing light sabre. Ben is no longer an old man to Luke's eyes but a Jedi Knight.


Lucas kept this exact same scene again and again in all the versions. He sometimes changed around who was who was who was who (sometimes it was Luke, sometimes it was Hon, etc) but the dialogue and the actions were all utterly identical.

[DanielD]

To Plot Device.
Yep! Darn computers been playing up.
Breaks my heart.
Don't know whom with as of yet,though I have a well payed PI working on it.
About the film Eragon.
WOW! The critics must have been quite merciless.
I cannot see why they were so harsh.
All movies borrow from other movies, to varying degrees.
I read an article that stated ,"A bad movie, is one in which the idea's have been stolen from one particular film. A good movie, is when the idea's are stolen from many films".
Unless they can point to it it being, a direct pilfering of Star Wars,of which, I'm highly doubtful, they may have simply drawn this conclusion without really looking at the story, as a seperate entity.
To many self enhanced Star Wars flashbacks, during their critical viewing.
If I had a dollar for everytime I have said, "HEY! I seen this done before(sometimes identical) in this movie,or that movie" I'd,well I'd have a lot of dollars.
Eragon is a film which I hav'nt seen, though at first glance of the trailer I had a Lord of the Rings flashback.
Maybe it's the Eragon/Aragon thing playing over in my subconscience.
HEY! I'm not helping here am I.
In regards to comparing various drafts.
I also looked at some, that did not have a name attached.
These were rejected scripts,some were so different from the ultimate story, I had to whizz back to the title page, to make sure I had the right script.
I remember the Cafe scene (luke,Obiwan,couple of baddies,and a light saber).
Upon reading it again, via your post I actually cracked up a little,especially when recalling the various garbs of the patrons.
I have managed to pull myself back together.
I found it very interesting, reading the final lines,how Lukes opinion of Obiwan changes from that point onwards.
It's a nice touch.
OOh well!
Gotta hit the road.
Take care.
Daniel.

[Plot Device]

About the film Eragon.
WOW! The critics must have been quite merciless.
I cannot see why they were so harsh.
All movies borrow from other movies, to varying degrees.
I read an article that stated ,"A bad movie, is one in which the idea's have been stolen from one particular film. A good movie, is when the idea's are stolen from many films".
Unless they can point to it it being, a direct pilfering of Star Wars,of which, I'm highly doubtful, they may have simply drawn this conclusion without really looking at the story, as a seperate entity.
To many self enhanced Star Wars flashbacks, during their critical viewing.
If I had a dollar for everytime I have said, "HEY! I seen this done before(sometimes identical) in this movie,or that movie" I'd,well I'd have a lot of dollars.
Eragon is a film which I hav'nt seen, though at first glance of the trailer I had a Lord of the Rings flashback.
Maybe it's the Eragon/Aragon thing playing over in my subconscience.


Star Wars vs. Eragon





Star Wars starts off with a tough as nails princess aboard her small space craft fleeing through a remote corner of space from a huge monster-sized battle ship full of thousands of soldiers. She is secretly carrying a vital item which she stole (a set of secret plans) which could lead to the downfall of the evil empire that rules the galaxy unjustly.

Eragon starts off with a tough as nails princess and her small entourage fleeing through the wilderness from big bad batallion of soldiers. She is secretly carrying a vital item which she stole (a dragon's egg) which could lead to the downfall of the evil dictatorship the terrorizes the kingdom.




The princess's space ship is overtaken. She and her entourage are captured, but not before she secretly arranges for the plans to be taken away by a small spunky robot. Her goal is for the robot to take the plans to a mighty general on a desert planet who can help get the plans to the rebellion where the rebellion scientists can analyze them and put them to use. When the bad guys realize she doesn't have the pans, they take her prisoner and bring her back to a large menacing evil inner-sanctom called the Death Star where their head military commander can hopefully coerce her into revealing where the stolen plans are.

The pricess's entorage is overtaken. She and her servants are captured. But not before she uses her limited magic powers to send the egg hurtling away into some teleportation mode where the bad guys can't get it. Her goal was to get the egg back to her people where they could hopefully put it to use. The bad guys are angry that she sent the egg away and take her prisoner and bring her back to the inner-sanctoms of a dark fortress of evil where their evil leader can hopefully coerce her into revealing where the egg has been sent off to.





The robot takes the plans through the deserts of the planet surface and is waylayed by ruffians who capture him and sell him to a farming family where a boy named Luke lives whith his uncle.

The egg winds up rematerializing on a farm where a boy name Eragon lives with his uncle.




Luke has a good friend named Biggs who secertly tells Luke he is leaving for good now and is off to join the rebellion. Biggs is Luke's best friend and Luke is crushed. They say good-bye.

Eragon has an older brother who secretly tells Eragon that he is leaving for good now and is off to join the rebellion. Eragon loves his brother and is crushed. They say good-bye.




While in the family garage, Luke discovers a partial piece of a message hidden in the robot. The mesage is from a beautiful woman (the princess) and he is curious to know what the message is about. The robot is reluctant to show him the rest. Luke hides the fact of this message from his uncle.

While in the barn, Eragon discovers the egg. He doesn't know what it is but is curious about it. He hides the fact of the egg from his uncle.





Meanwhile, the princess is being tortured by the evil soldiers for the whereabouts of the stolen plans.

Meanwhile, the princess is beig tortured by the evil soldiers for the whereabouts of the stolen egg.





The robot leads Luke out to the home of an old man. He is really the old general, hiding in obscurity from the evil empire. He reveals to Luke the truth of his father and the ancient legacy of the now nearly-extinct Jedi Knights who once kept order and peace in the galaxy.

The egg hatches and the baby dragon that comes out leads Eragon to the home of an old man. He is really one of the former dragon riders from days gone by, hiding in obscurity from the evil king. He reveals to Eragon the truth of the ancient legacy of the now nearly-extinct dragon riders who once kept order and peace in the kingdom.




When the old general finds the full message from the princess, he urges Luke to join with him in the task of getting the robot to the rebellion and becoming a Jedi Knight himself. He gives Luke the light sabre that once belonged to Luke's father so that with it Luke can begin Jedi training. Luke is resistant.

When the old dragon rider is revealed to Eragon for who he really is, Eragon urges him to help Eragon with the task of dragon training. The old dragon rider is at first resistant. (And I think I recall that there was some trinket/amulet or something that the old dragon rider gave to Eragon as a gift. I don't recall. But part of the Hero's Journey entails the passing of a unique gift to the hero, usually from a wise old sage.)




Luke goes back home and finds his uncle murdered. So he finds the general again and tells him he is now willing to become a Jedi and fight the evil empire.

Eragon goes back home and finds his uncle murdered. So he finds the old dragon rider and the drago rider feels bad and so he now gives in and agrees to train him.



Luke and the general journey to a rough town where they hope to find a ship that will get them transport to the planet Alderon where they can deliver the robot. On the way, the general begins schooling Luke in the ways of the Jedi.

Eragon and the old dragon rider journey through the wilderness trying to find the rebel stronghold. On the way, the old dragon begins his dragon training lessons on Eragon.




In the rough town, they hire a ship captain who is a good looking cocky scoundrel. He eventually joins up with them.

Along the way, they meet up in the woods with a guy who is a good-looking cocky scoundrel. He joins up with them.




They are waylayed in their journey to Alderon by stumbling upon the evil space station where the princess is being held captive. They sneak in and rescue her.

They are wayalyed in their journey to the hidden rebel stronghold by detouring to the evil fortress where the princess is being held captive. They sneak in and rescue her.




By successfully rescuing the princess and fleeing to the rebel base, they wind up leading the evil empire to the location of the hidden base. At the base, Luke meets up with Biggs. They are joyously reunited.

By succesfully rescuing the princess and fleeing to the rebel stronghold, they wind up leading the evil soldiers to the location of the stronghold. At the base, Eragon meets up with his odler brother. They are joyously reunited.



Hon chooses to leave because he has no desire to get invovled.

The cocky scoundrel guy is ordered to leave because they don't trust him.




A huge battle ensues in the vicinity of the rebel base. Biggs is killed during the battle. Luke is crushed.

A huge battle ensues in the vicinty of the rebel stronghold. Eragon's older brother is killed during the battle. Eragon is crushed.




At the last moment of the battle, Hon returns and helps Luke. And only then can Luke successfully destroy the Death Star.

At the last moment of the batte, the cocky scoundrel returns and helps Eeragon. And only then can Eragon deliver the fatal blow to destroy the enemy.




Ending celebration. To be continued.

Ending celebration. To be continued.

[Joe Calabrese]

Star Wars and Lord of the Ring also have the same basic story structure.

Here's a snippet of an article.

"LOTR" and "Star Wars" share a long list of structural and thematic similarities. They're both mythical creature fantasies hellbent on rescuing good from the clutches of evil. Both feature circumstantial heroes who make Oz-like journeys and come of age in the process.

There are also dozens of superficial similarities. Both movies feature mentors who duel bad guys atop narrow passageways, as well as secondary villains -- Darth Vader and Saruman the White, both deserters to the dark side, both fond of telekinetic violence -- who provide the more visible nemesis. Along the way, both heroes encounter women in white gowns, cynical older-brother types, sidekicks playing for laughs and faceless cannon fodder (Storm Troopers and orcs). Both make use of mystical languages, mystical spiritual beliefs and pivotal scenes in bars and in watery mucky-mucks (compare the swamp at the gates of Moria with the garbage chute in the Death Star).

[Plot Device]

Lucas fully admits he borrowed heavily from LotR and from Dune.

When directing the very first Star Wars film Sir Alec Guiness was struggling with his character and kept badgering Lucas for guidance. Finally Lucas said to Guiness: "You're Gandalf! Okay?" And Guiness said "Oh," and then he had no problem with the role from then onward.

[scripter1]

or the Protagonist's journey is EXACTLY the same no matter how you dress it up.

It simply IS WHAT IT IS.

What idoicy to think that any adventure/fanstasy story should be totally different, not have any similarities, or things in common!
And it doesn't change for Drama's, comedies, horror, or thriller, just that the various elements are less obvious or more symbolic then real.

Writer's follow the path of the hero's journey because it WORKS!

AND, in the case of many adventure/fantasy stories like Star Wars or Eargon the Inciting Incident is a real moment where they chose to leave their old world behind and step into a literal new world.

This is one way to find the Inciting Incident.

I believe in Star Wars it jumps from Luke seeing the bodies, to them traveling in the speeder, to arriving in the space port.
Luke has left the farm and journeyed into the world of the Empire, as is evidenced by the number of storm troopers and all the nasty guys.

I think it is wise to remember all the events that lead up to the key moments in Star Wars. They were great, exciting moments, full of powerful images.

I still get goose bumps when ever I hear the stuidios opening drum roll.
I always expect to see the stars in that black sky and then that huge ship chasing down that little cruiser.

[Plot Device]

13th Warrior follows the hero's journey (well, the whole thing is actually Beowulf in disguise) and has no resemblance at all to Star Wars or Eragon.

13th Warrior has the call to duty, the passing of the gift, the journey to a far off land, the wise old sage (actually a couple of wise old sages), the dark underground lair of evil, but no one could accuse it of being a carbon copy of Star Wars. There's no farm boy. No uncle. No hidden rebel stronghold. No stolen McGuffin. No one being held prisoner and tortured for information. No ancient warrior/priest discipline that needs to be learned. No cocky scoundrel who joins up from out of the blue. The PRECISE duplication, point by point, stroke by stroke, between Eragon and Star Wars is embarassing.

[icerose]

Agreed which is why I have never had any interest in Eragon. Nothing new there, it's all copied.

[dpaterso]

The writing of Eragon the novel is an interesting tale -- teen author, novel self-published and distributed by his family, then read by a pro author who drew it to the attention of his publisher.

I must watch 13th Warrior maybe 3 or 4 times each year, the tape is getting worn and snowy in places. Oddly enough I never have the urge to re-watch Star Wars or LOTR despite being an SF/F fan. Shrug, each to their own.

-Derek

[Joe Calabrese]

I know what you are saying Derek.

I loved all the LOTR and Star Wars Trilogies (even 1,2,3) and when they came out on DVD I bought the gold plated, ultra uber special editions and salivated at the thought of watching them regularly over and over for the rest of my life.

Oddly enough, I have watched them only once since getting them. It's on my to do list but I never seem to get around to watching them.

On the other hand, I have watched lesser loved films dozens of times.

I guess when a particular film has imprinted itself so clearly and effectively in my mind, I don't have the need or desire to get an entertainment "fix."

[Lilybiz]

Joseph Campbell's "A Hero With A Thousand Faces" details the mythic hero's journey, which is what these stories follow (each in their own way). It can be thick, but it's a goldmine to a writer. A couple of guys (I think at Disney) abridged it some time in the 80s or so, and it's been around Hollywood as a kind of bible. A very useful reference.

[Joe Calabrese]

Totally going off topic and I'll stop after this.

History Channel is having a special doc on Star Wars Origins, Mythos and Legacy on Monday at 9pm. Looks good.

[zeprosnepsid]

Joseph Campbell's "A Hero With A Thousand Faces" details the mythic hero's journey, which is what these stories follow (each in their own way). It can be thick, but it's a goldmine to a writer. A couple of guys (I think at Disney) abridged it some time in the 80s or so, and it's been around Hollywood as a kind of bible. A very useful reference.


Or you can always watch the Bill Moyer's special. It's on DVD, for those of us who don't like to read =) It is like 6 hours long though.

[nmstevens]

the Inciting Incident in Star Wars is when Lukes family is killed.
Up until that moment he hasn't been really pushed.
He's been nudged yes. Set up, yes.
BUT until he steps into that journey away from home he isn't committed.
The inciting incident is a point of no return.

True indeed that Luke was interested in Leah but he didn't know that getting involved could kill him.
Remember, one of the themes of Star Wars is controlling our emotions to keep us from evil. When Luke sees the bodies he is set on the path of possible vengence. From there on out he will struggle with the two sides of the force.


There are differing opinions as to what constitutes the "inciting incident" -- just what it means -- and that, I think is why some people are under the opinion that this is something that ought to be happening around the end of the first act and other people are under the opinion that it ought to be happening right up front.

So, just to be clear -- there is no Pope of Screenwriting. No Holy Writ. There is a standard format that tells you where to put the margins and what a slug line is -- but as to where the first act ends, what an inciting incident is, what a plot point is -- there is no final authority that one can appeal to for the answers to these questions. There are just a bunch of people who've written screenwriting books or teach screenwriting seminars and have their own opinions and advance their own particular approaches.

As I've always used and understood the term, the inciting incident is the *initial* event that causes the protagonist to change trajectory -- to move onto the track of the story. That may be an incident of which he is completely unaware. A murder takes place at the beginning. Our hero knows nothing about it. But, because he's a homicide detective, that event, in fact, is the inciting incident, because that is what is going to bring him into the events of the story.

That's what makes the discovery of the recording the inciting incident -- because that is what brings Luke onto the "story track," which is the definition as I understand it.

Also, I think that your above notion about Luke having to control his emotions, being set on the path of vengeance because of the death of his family, is frankly writing a movie that is, totally, not on the screen.

There isn't a breath of any indication, in the first movie or in any subsequent movie, that Luke is seeking revenge for the death of his Aunt and Uncle. In fact, after their deaths, all Luke has to say about them is, "There's nothing for me here now."

And he never -- never -- refers to them or their deaths again. All of his feelings of wanting revenge, at least until the end of the second movie, have to do with the supposed murder of his father -- then, in the third movie, he has to deal with that hatred, now realizing that its object, in fact, *is* his father.

But none of that, so far as I can see, has anything to do with the Aunt and Uncle, who are given virtually no emotional weight or significance in the movie. There's nothing on screen to suggest that he's going off into space to seek revenge for poor Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru.

NMS

[Joe Calabrese]

I believe the inciting incident is where Luke discovers that he has a chance to change his life to what he has alwasy dreamed it could be. It is that moment at ObiWan's when Leia's message is fully played and ObiWan wants him to join him.

Up to that moment, we know Luke is bored, looking for adventure, looking for answers about his father, looking to go and join the rebels with his friends who have already left, but he can't, he has duty and responsibility to his Uncle.

ObiWan is the Oracle in the Cave that reveals to him the peril that faces the universe and give the opportunity for Luke to have an excuse to leave his Aunt and Uncle and seek adventure-- to seek his path in life, which up to that moment was stalled on that rock.

Sure, Luke is not sure and says no and then when his family is killed, he now has no reason to stay, but it is that call to arms that incites Luke to move forward in his story.

The point of now return is the knowledge that Luke can save the girl and the universe. He is forced into action when the uncles are killed, but that is not the incident, but the trigger for that change in his life.

That's my two cents.

[DanielD]

To Plot Device.
Yes, but the titles are different.... imagine "Starlet wars" or something similar... click.... humour switch off.
Hey! On my small screen Star Wars 30th Anniversary is being discussed.
They were going through some trivial tidbits.
*Apparently that old salt, Alec Guiness(Obiwan),had made a comment during filming ,something like, "Why am I doing this rubbish" ,of course he went on to win an oscar.
*The original choice for Darth Vaders voice, was actually Orsen Wells.
*The idea, for the shape of the Millenium Falcon, came from a..a..Pizza..
So that explains my taste in movies.
*During the compactor scene,Luke(Mark Hamil) popped a blood vessel due to the prolonged pressure he was exposed to.
Ohhh poop...they've gone back to regular programming....
In regards to your indepth comparisons,there are a lot of similarities,
HEY! remember..."Imitation is the highest form of flattery".
Whether it's LOTR, Star Wars,Indiana Jones,The Matrix,Eragon and many others,Story Ideas come from somewhere.
"Where would Idiana Jones be, without the numerous weekly serials which influenced(inspired) it's creation".
That's what I read somewhere,just recently.
These movies all seem to follow a similar pattern.
As Scripter1 points out, this seems to be stock and trade, as far as the heroes journey is concerned.
What I referred to in my previous post,in regards to constanly seeing similar scenes(ideas) being rehashed, Screenwriting is no different than any other area of learning, or life in general.
Music ,the Arts ,sport,everywhere you look new ideas, techniques or concepts evolve from, what is borrowed from older ideas ect.
Everyone, has their own unique way of seeing things.
There is no shortage of ideas,that's for sure.
Therefore, something fresh shall always come along, from time to time.
Thankfully,we don't have to re-invent the wheel.
Take care .
Daniel,.

[Plot Device]

Hey guys--the whole Star Wars thing on the History Channel just ended. Anyone watch it? I did. It was WAY cool. And the focus of the entire show was the hero's journey.

Way cool indeed.

Here's a thread I started at the AW Roundtable board:


http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65754

[scripter1]

I'm sorry guys. All this thinking is making me very sleepy.
I'm going to fold.