Poets, passion, loss

[oneiopen]

Could a person be a good poet without having experienced both passion and loss? Does passion and loss drive us to write poetry?

[scarletpeaches]

In my case it does! :D

I think passion gives you another life experience to write about; it certainly makes for a richer pool of resources from which to draw.

But can you be a good poet without suffering (which is what passion truly means)? Probably, but I think your resources would be limited. I look back at the crap I used to write and think...ugh.

But then I like films and books and songs that make me cry, so maybe I'm naturally just a masochist when it comes to writing, too.

[awake]

I suppose not.

It is by essence experience which defines, and allows, poets to be able to look at situations and describe them so that they are realized by readers in different lights. The significance and importance of whatever idea can only first be discovered through that poet witnessing it. I think our experiences define us, and make us experience that awe sometimes when we realize a new way to look at an old thing.

It is such perspectives when make poets poets, after all.

[louiscypher]

Poets:

Two words ... Oscar Wilde
Three words ... Liz Barrett ... No, I refuse to even mention his name!

Prose: Margret Woolstonecraft

Anything written ... The Bronte's


Did ju too know that Glasgow has recently appointed a poet (of all people) to liaise/aid it's suicidal youth ... *SIGH*

[oneiopen]

Did ju too know that Glasgow has recently appointed a poet (of all people) to liaise/aid it's suicidal youth ... *SIGH*
What? To convince the youth why?

[Norman D Gutter]

As a poet at another site said so well: "passion without craft is blather whereas craft without passion is at best a penmanship excercise."

I think passion is necessary to write memorable poetry, but I don't see why suffering is. Of course, suffering comes in all shapes, sizes, and intensities. One may think he suffers when he loses his wallet and has to cancel all his credit cards. Another may not sense suffering until his wife leaves him. For still another it might be death of a loved one or economic deprivation. I'm sure we could find many poets who had relatively little suffering in their lives yet wrote memorable poetry.

I don't know what drives people to write poetry. For some it might be passion; for others loss; for others living in an environment of beauty; for others living in an evironment of excitement. The poet senses the world around him, and puts it into verse. Usually the sensing is first-hand experience, but occasionally it is not (e.g. Emily Dickinson).

Being passionate about poetry is the key, IMHO.

NDG

[solo]

i think loss IS passion as are other emotions that take us beyond the everyday parameters of "s'ok" ... a sense of the extreme in experience ... in practice passion does often mean suffering but then suffering means pure endurance/allowance? i don't know ... how words are used changes so much in the story of language and individual event. I guess they're interlocked anyway.

I suspect that passion is what drives us, it IS our energetic relationship with everything ... whether it leads to poetry or any other form of self-expression (or denial) may well be a choice?

just thinking aloud here and i may think differently in an hour or so *grin

[oneiopen]

"The poet senses the world around him" (Norman D. Gutter) and "passion is what drive us, it is our energetic relationship with everything" (Solo). So poetry needn't result from "passion" or "loss" in terms of romantic love. Is it arrogant to think that artists (poets, painters, otherwise) "sense...the extreme in experience" (Solo)? Or are they just the ones who bother to record it?

[louiscypher]

Passion may well be one way of denoting ones escapist polity and rationality. But essentially humans are driven by fear above and below all else and others. Nor do they thrive (singular nor plural) when at their best but, moreso - beyond any reasonable doubt - when in/at their very worse... from War to Art!

One word: Schopenhauer...but don't ask me to elaborate on this as it seems to bring up the dreaded N and H words, and with them the most kosher nature within all things fundamentally in/human ... Sentimentality (the very worst aspect of Pride)

[temerity]

Passion amplifies poetry, I think. The whole point of the craft is to be able to see events and circumstances through a different lens--for some, it is possible to make their own lenses through constant writing practice. The people who use suffering to make their lenses, however, can add a personal touch--and there is no replacement for experience ("write what you know").

[poetinahat]

The long version:

On a superficial level, I think this: If one has no passion, one won't be bothered writing poetry. Why would one want to?

As far as loss goes, I'm not sure that any of my favorite poems are about loss. Personally, loss doesn't motivate me to do anything but brood. That brooding may infuse my character with certain traits that enrich my writing, but it's indirect.

A loss doesn't make me want to write a poem. Wanting to write a poem makes me want to write a poem. But, certainly, not everyone is inspired in the same way.

The short version:

What Norman said.

[NeuroFizz]

I'd put passion high on the list, but there are so many ways to define passion--an intense interest, an insatiable curiosity, a driven distaste for something, a religious fervor, a personal research, wanting to get laid, and on and on...

Right up there with that widely-defined passion (which really can be just motivation in disguise), I'd put experiencing life with wide open eyes, and paying attention to the surrounding world. This is an awareness thing.

So, top two (not in order) would be passion and awareness, both with wide definitions.

Loss probably wouldn't even be in my top ten unless I experienced some form of it (awareness) and I decided to convey it to others (passion).

Not all poetry has a heavy base of human emotions, although it should try to stir human emotions of some kind, even if it is just head-nodding recognition.

All my opinion, of course.

[louiscypher]

We love because we fear being alone, and we hate because we fear losing something precious to us!
To say passion drives us is like saying, "Well, I am aware I lost my entire family in 911, but by hell it was worth it as those terrorist were so passionate about what they did " ... and this is democracy, right?

[oneiopen]

I was thinking about this as I walked about in the cool morning air. Where there is passion there is always, at the minimum, the fear of loss. I can write a poem celebrating something I find extraordinary but the underlying motivation to write it is always knowing that it must go, it must somehow change. The poems are an attempt to freeze that moment, that expression, that experience.

[louiscypher]

PS: I write and study poetry because I'm looking for that ever elusive perfect word. It's like enchantment, which becomes more of a mystery everytime I near it: And it's like cherish, though it turns into sand or water whenever I try to grasp it again.

J

[davids]

I believe it is possible certainly-not that I would put myself among good poets-my basic drive to write poetry is from a deep and passionate desire to be silly!!!

[louiscypher]

I think they extend or exagerate perception, dearest O. Poems, I mean? The personification of feelings is prose!

[louiscypher]

Buy a goat then, Lobby lol

[davids]

Buy a goat then, Lobby lol


Me have goat-goat drives my poetic lust! You buy goat-you try! LOLLYS

[oneiopen]

I believe it is possible certainly-not that I would put myself among good poets-my basic drive to write poetry is from a deep and passionate desire to be silly!!!

Silliness may be part of your drive but I would hesitate to say (having read a number of your poems now) that it's your basic, or overwhelming, desire. Humour is viewing the world through a skewed lens that depends on truth. Perhaps you're just trying to capture the world as you take off one set of glasses, try on another pair to compare, delighting in your distorted vision?

[scarletpeaches]

davids is the patron saint of silly and anyone who disagrees will feel the sharp end of his pincers!

[oneiopen]

I think they extend or exagerate perception, dearest O. Poems, I mean? The personification of feelings is prose!

I agree. Poetry is heightened language after all, the prosaic, the cliched being the greatest enemy. Maybe it's not that poets necessarily sense the world about them differently, maybe they notice and care to observe and feel passion and its corollary loss the same as the next soul, but care more to artfully craft that exaggerated perception.

[oneiopen]

Yes, bow to me you foolish claw -
"silly" derives from blessed and awe
the awe from which I search the muse.

Yes, some will give passion
half a thought and half a penny -
some will never give it any.

And tell me why should I ever hope
for a heart's mortgage from a dope?

:)

[davids]

Yes, bow to me you foolish claw -
"silly" derives from blessed and awe
the awe from which I search the muse.

Yes, some will give passion
half a thought and half a penny -
some will never give it any.

And tell me why should I ever hope
for a heart's mortgage from a dope?

:)


So true dear heart-but the dope did quite cut to my quick-but it is a silly poem and for that I believe you have evedentiarilly hit your stride-I am now going to go and lick my claws with garlic butter and such!!!!

To hope for mortgage from a dope
would be as to go to Mort Gage's shop
ask for a Petunia and receive a kiss
how sweet to be in Mort Gage bliss!!!!

[LimeyDawg]

Heh, I think Davids searches his muse too,
only he slaps on some rubber gloveys
and tells his muse
bend over, lovey.

[davids]

Heh, I think Davids searches his muse too,
only he slaps on some rubber gloveys
and tells his muse
bend over, lovey.


Crap how does Mr. Dawg know us sooo well-he is of course and as usual with his comment-spotty right on doggy!!!!

[C.bronco]

Could a person be a good poet without having experienced both passion and loss? Does passion and loss drive us to write poetry?

Yes to the first question, I believe that a good poet is a keen observer. Passion and loss are parts of life, but there are many others to reflect on.

[louiscypher]

I agree. Poetry is heightened language after all, the prosaic, the cliched being the greatest enemy. Maybe it's not that poets necessarily sense the world about them differently, maybe they notice and care to observe and feel passion and its corollary loss the same as the next soul, but care more to artfully craft that exaggerated perception.

I tire of this thing called cliche being used or pouted as a literal or metaphoric taboo, especially when there is nothing of word nor combination of them I can say which hasn't been said before. In fact, I think its an ageist/archaic device/ploy/polity invented to protect a thing called 'property rights' - which encumbers the intellectual - and which is what I detest the very most in this world.
As for that thing called difference, it too is a crock of waffle (pardon me Dutch), as different is some *thing* (alien) beyond the mental grasp and recognition of another selection of things and their own faculties ... which - if accepted by things of sameness - would make jibberish a valid language... Like A.E.Tolkein's crock of rife drivel, which he in fact stole from the genius of Wagner... and AET should be flogged for it rather than praised!

The word is unique and its validation is indifference, contempt, contrition which make the poets mind tick, dearest O ... not tock! But in saying this too I fear not to tock the crock of ages as it's my birthright to be me as me, always ... as it's yours also!

God I go on a bit, don't I just ... well, too bad!!!

The greatest example I can offer a pretty mind like yours, dear O, is that of Sophie Calle, whom said: If I drop my camera and it somehow takes a snapshot of unparallel'd genius, can I truly claim this picture as/of my own?
Yes, she can, as it was her well/pre/ prepared faculties and diversity of awareness (device) which placed and readied her for the end result, no matter ... being accidental is a mere coincidence ... as is all of logic and rationality btw!

Why am I saying all this you say? Well, I make it no secret I adore Fish Breth and Slimely DAG here at AW. But then genius - to me - comes in all shapes and sizes. And comedic retorts require a deeper - more extreme - understanding of something of focus to in fact validate taking the piss out it - so to speak!

Even stupidity achieves pure genius in own right and light (Jasper of Sophie Calle) ... and of course those other two muckers I've mentioned here *smile*

God I love tangents lol

J

[louiscypher]

PS: and hate my slow fingers too ... but then again I type with me toes lol

[LimeyDawg]

Hmm, I think what LouC Lou is trying to say is that the worst that can happen in any art is to set boundaries as absolutes. Yes and no is the answer to every limiting question. Are loss and pain necessary in poetry. Yes and no. We grow in the places we test boundaries. Confined within the constructs of the establishment, we become the establishment. Those brave souls who dared the currents of escapism have advanced our art by leaps and bounds, not necessarily through the pack-mules of loss and pain, but certainly with their help.
I'm convinced that passion is the key to better art, but that is a boundary and I've drawn my line in the sand there. If you have an interest in something, I believe it will come across in the form of better writing. This does not mean, however, that you cannot write about accounting.

[louiscypher]

Nor be invalid to ignore dead people, especially when it impacts the quality of ME ART!

[davids]

I do not even ignore dead people who are completely silly-actually they are preparable to the ones who are not-dead I mean-but nevertheless silly!

[louiscypher]

)))I can see dead people((((

[scarletpeaches]

Are they silly?

[davids]

Me too my nephew Gurk works in a morteeyary

[louiscypher]

Gurk makes Gerkins - eh?

[NeuroFizz]

In agreement with others (and this coming from someone who points out cliches in crits), the cliche can be a wonderful tool of the poet, but it should be carefully considered along with all of the other word choices. If just thrown around, they cheapen a piece (in my opinion), if cleverly used they enrich it, and if used to emote tone or setting they are perhaps a most economical use of words. What I really like, though, is when the entire focus of a poem is a cliche (humorous or serious), of which so much about human nature can be gleaned. My main problem with overuse is when they are mixed--they are not used in a coordinated or rational way within the context of the piece.

Another general point - unlike parliamentary proceedings (Robert's Rules of Order), there is no formal writ in poetry--as in "Robert's Rules of Poetry."

[louiscypher]

Holograph the cliche', telegraph the cliche', speak the cliche', but most of all smash the cliche' into a thousand lil pieces and still promote the hologram!

Mind we all know a hologram, when particularise'd, are/becomes minute replicas' of the entire wholeness, don't we?

A damn good thing to do!

J

PS: Well, it beats making Gerkins' for a quid - I reckon!