My protag would get his butt kicked by my antag. . . what should I do?

[SirTimberWolf]

So I've been thinking. . .

My book is mainly focused on the characters with a big part of the action being physical stuff (car chases, firefights, so on and so on) so I'd like my final stand off to be one between my antagonist and protagonist. But unless my antagonist was fatally wounded, he wouldn't have anything to fear from my protag. My protag isn't nearly as trained as my antagonist (Hayden) is. To top that off, Hayden is also about 4 or 5 times faster than my protag (Jon) because he isn't human.

Aside from the obvious, using the surroundings to his advantage, how could this ever be a 'fair' fight. Or maybe I should just do that, make it clear that Jon has no possible chance of defeating him and instead his team takes down the place Hayden is trying to defend. . .

Blah, I really don't know what to do. In my current draft they really don't go face to face, instead Hayden uses his planning and foresight to actually win the day. The war isn't over but this battle is. Jon's team destroys the facility they came to but Hayden ultimately escapes being captured/killed.

[JoNightshade]

But unless my antagonist was fatally wounded, he wouldn't have anything to fear from my protag.

Why not use this, then? Not a deus ex machina (please no), but perhaps your protag could be smart and find a way to knock him down to size before the big fight. Then they would be on even terms and you could have a big fight at the end (if I understand correctly, this is what you want).

[NeuroFizz]

Brains over brawn. A physical advantage can be neutralized, or even overcome, if the antag is outsmarted in some way. Pretend you are the protag and your ending is the antag. Now, outsmart the sum-bich.

[SirTimberWolf]

Thanks for the replies.
Maybe a stupid question, but what ther possible endings could be used? Opposed to a big knock down, drag out. . . Maybe the team just levels the facility they came to and that's the end? Sounds even worse. . . Argh, I'm glad I've got another draft to finish this in, maybe I'll come up with something. (Sounds like I don't have a clear idea where the plot is going? I do! Just not how to end it!)

[MarkEsq]

Does he have some weakness, some compulsion that your protag might use to ensnare him. Does he need to be killed? If he's not human, can he be trapped and taken apart to further human science? Sounds grisly but if he's not human...!

[LaceWing]

At the beginning, plant something the antag wants, and let the protag find out the value of this at the climax point, and beat him that way? That is, the antag needs to have a vulnerability (as you've discovered), and how the protag uses it needs to be in doubt until the crucial moment. Reader gets to think at some point, when will he ever figure it out? And there are moments along the way when he comes "this close" and the reader is just dying to tell him. Maybe the antag doesn't know himself, or maybe he does.

[CheshireCat]

So I've been thinking. . .

My book is mainly focused on the characters with a big part of the action being physical stuff (car chases, firefights, so on and so on) so I'd like my final stand off to be one between my antagonist and protagonist. But unless my antagonist was fatally wounded, he wouldn't have anything to fear from my protag. My protag isn't nearly as trained as my antagonist (Hayden) is. To top that off, Hayden is also about 4 or 5 times faster than my protag (Jon) because he isn't human.

Aside from the obvious, using the surroundings to his advantage, how could this ever be a 'fair' fight. Or maybe I should just do that, make it clear that Jon has no possible chance of defeating him and instead his team takes down the place Hayden is trying to defend. . .

Blah, I really don't know what to do. In my current draft they really don't go face to face, instead Hayden uses his planning and foresight to actually win the day. The war isn't over but this battle is. Jon's team destroys the facility they came to but Hayden ultimately escapes being captured/killed.

Even the strongest villain (or hero) has to have a weakness, an Achilles heel; finding that weakness may take many battles and much searching, and the hero may nearly die in the attempt. But at some point, your hero has to overcome the odds -- that's what makes him the hero.

Oh -- and the villain's Achilles heel has to make sense, not come out of the blue at the last minute.

[Summonere]

Think Terminator. Think Sarah Conner versus the Terminator down at the end of that movie. Looks like the Terminator had just been toasted by that fiery gasoline truck but, eh, not so. It comes clanking out with a limp.

Then Sarah Conner sticks that dynamite in its metal guts and blows it to smithereens. Well, except for that top half that keeps dragging itself after her.

Then, finally, she crawls through a great big masher and happens to exit it just seconds before the robot can. And, handily, she’s right next to a big squisher button, too.

Thus your protagonist might similarly whittle down your opponent piece by piece.

You are limited only by your imagination.

[kimb68]

I think the fight should be unequal -- that way the hero looks more heroic when he wins. And brains over brawn is always appealing. Your situation makes me think of all those episodes of Star Trek where Kirk defeats the machine by trapping it in some sort of logical conundrum which forces it to self-destruct. Or War of the Worlds, where the aliens are defeated by the common cold. An unexpected Achilles heel like that is a great twist, like the elephant that's scared of a mouse. Think small.

Personally, I think blowing things up at the end is a bit of a cop-out, and not very satisfactory for readers. Not to mention it's been done ad nauseum in the movies.

[Mr. E]

Let Hayden win? ;)

[Doug Johnson]

Keep making your hero smarter and smarter until he figures it out.

[SirTimberWolf]

Personally, I think blowing things up at the end is a bit of a cop-out, and not very satisfactory for readers. Not to mention it's been done ad nauseum in the movies.

I totally agree, which is why I want to avoid that per-se.

I was thinking about maybe using some of the explosives the team takes with them (They're going to this facility to demolish it, it poses a serious threat to the 'good guys' in this book.) During an earlier chapter it's shown how the explosives that they make aren't 100% reliable. Maybe something with that at least to get the first 'wound'.

Also: as far as weaknesses go I just thought of something, and it'd work perfectly. . . :D These poeple (in the book, they're called Kattah) have tails which extend about 6-10 feet from their spines depending on their age. Though they don't know male Kattah exist, it might be such a thing that Jon finds out during the final confrontation (the explosive maybe blows away some of Hayden's clothing or the wound isn't propperly covered?)

Anyway, these Kattah have large nerve clusters there that can REALLY upset their balance and cause them imense physical pain should they be struck in those spots. Something we see several times as readers. Including pulling on their tales, landing them at such an angle and stuff like that. It's definately a physical advantage, even if it isn't something that Jon could win by intelligence alone.

We know Hayden is one of these Kattah from the start of his POV (early on) so it's not some "OMG!" moment. Maybe that'd be a way to bring it together. . .

[Stijn Hommes]

Seems like you've found the imagination you need to carry on.

[Zoombie]

Drop a grand piano on him. Just set the fight in a Piano Warehouse, or something.

But that tail thing sounds good.

[Sassee]

There is no such thing as a "fair" fight. ;) In fact, it's more entertaining that way.

Looks like you thought of something though... keep us updated on whether or not it worked for ya.

[SirTimberWolf]

I certainly will, thanks your all your input guys :)

[ccarver30]

Brains over brawn. A physical advantage can be neutralized, or even overcome, if the antag is outsmarted in some way. Pretend you are the protag and your ending is the antag. Now, outsmart the sum-bich.

Agree. Make the bad guy make a mistake, and he could be his OWN downfall. His confidence could work against him (if he has that human trait ;) ).

[alaskamatt17]

Hm, well this is interesting, as I just happen to have finished Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash, and one of the antagonists is much stronger, sneakier, and faster than any of the other characters. I don't want to spoil the ending, but if there's anything in particular that makes your antagonist really scary in the eyes of everyone else, why not have the protagonist find some way to turn that against him? Any trademark weapon that could be specifically countered? Any place where his speed would not matter? Look for that kind of thing.

[Red Robin]

I don't suppose the antag could pull a Roy (ala Bladerunner) ?

What are the antag's motivations?

[LimeyDawg]

There's a great fight scene in Cannonball Run which might address the issue. One of the Cannonballers is faced with a big biker and process of getting his ass kicked. Cannonballer has a 2x4, but instead of swinging for the biker's head, cracks the guy across the shins and drops him flat. (I've 18 yrs in martial arts-it'll work). Point is, you've pretty much limited your options to a brains-over-brawn outcome, which is not to say it can't be violent.

[justpat]

Having your MC find a way to defeat this guy is the whole point. Thats what makes it interesting, and readers want to read it. Play it up that there is no way he can win, but then find a way. But whatever you do, don't let him win because of outside help. He has to do it himself. Like someone else here already said, try brains over brain, a bit over done, but always popular. And, no offense, but someone else here also suggested that the bad guy makes some mistake which leads to his defeat, but this is just as bad as having outside assistance. The MC must defeat the bad guy, not have the bad guy defeat himself.

[jdparadise]

Essentially, you're facing what boils down to a protagonist the writer doesn't want to let die.

The writer can beat holy heck out of the protag, but if he's not going to kill him the reader knows it--sure, MC is facing Imminent Doom, but there are still 300 pages left and they ain't blank.

So what's left to threaten the protag with that the reader'll care about, then?

The things the protag cares about. Prized abilities (say, walking), loved ones, cherished ideals, dreams, etc., etc.

You might find it useful to mine the same ideas here. Sure, the MC can't kill the bad guy... but can he threaten the bad guy's girlfriend, or disillusion him to the rightness of his cause, or destroy the thing the bad guy is after?

[Chris Grey]

This is the end of your book, right? The most important thing is that your ending can't be cheap.

I'm going to get on a soapbox, I've seen enough bad endings that I don't want to see another. This is me as a critic. First, let's lay some ground rules:

1. No silver bullets.
2. No dirigibles.
3. No cavalry.
4. No miracles.

On silver bullets -

It's perfectly okay to give the villain a weakness. Werewolfes with silver bullets, Evil Overlords with strange magical artifacts, vampires with just about anything in the book. It's almost a standard in fantasy. But it's cheap as hell. If you use a silver bullet, it MUST fail at the crucial moment. Make the gun jam, make the artifact run out of mojo juice, make the kryptonite turn out to be a dud, make a stormcloud block the sun moments before the hero opens the window to let the sunlight fry the vampire.

On dirigibles -

Once upon a time, a story ended with a dirigible crashing and killing everybody. Don't make your villain spontaneously burst into flames because the hero can't feasibly win. The villain might as well defeat himself, because the hero's victory is going to be completely hollow.

On the cavalry arriving at the nick of time -

There's a word for people who show up at the nick of time and save the day. That word is "hero." If your hero gets bailed out by someone else, then who's the real hero of the story?

On miracles -

See dirigibles, above. No having your hero's mutant powers awaken during the fight.

Now, feel free to ignore the rules. Maybe your story's meant to be a sort of eye-opening thing where the villain wins or the hero has to cheat to win (and thus you show that he's not so heroic afterall). There's only one question you have to ask yourself when you consider how it ends and how the hero's going to win: What are you trying to prove?

Simply put, if one of your themes is, say, virtue vs hubris, then figure out a way to make the villain's pride be his downfall, or the hero's virtues be his. If what your story is trying to convey is that a dangerous villain needs to be put down at any cost, then maybe you could have your hero cheat (bring a gun to a fistfight, use poison on his blades, etc). Maybe your hero sacrifices himself to hold the villain in the facility while his allies blow it up, ensuring that both die?

I'm assuming that your hero's heroic and your villain's villainous, so you want this to be a fair fight (at least, the hero's not going to cheat) and you want a clear win. I'm going to take two quotes from The Lester Dent Pulp Paper Master Fiction Plot (http://www.miskatonic.org/dent.html):

The hero extricates himself using HIS OWN SKILL, training or brawn.
...
Did God kill the villain? Or the hero?Skill can be anything. Intelligence, a special ability, or maybe even perseverence of a virtue. Depends on what you and the hero are trying to prove by that fight.

So, let's see... I don't know much about your hero's skills, but you've told me this about your villain: he's got combat training, he's got speed, and he's got a weak point.

If you're looking for a good, solid ending, the weak point shouldn't spell "insta-win." Maybe a distraction, but if the villain's worth his salt, wouldn't he have planned specifically for the instance of somebody attacking his weak point? If I were him, I'd have had the nerve endings deadened (at least for pain) or maybe even re-arranged. It's a huge liability, especially for anyone who has any combat experience.

Apart from the above, there are pretty much three ways your hero can win in spite of the clear advantages your villain has:

1. Remove the advantage. Maybe the hero floods the room with molasses so the villain can't move as fast?

2. Adapt to the advantage. Maybe the uses the Space Invaders strategy and, instead of trying to hit the villain head-on, attacks where the villain is going to be? Maybe the villain falls into a pattern that the hero can exploit, or maybe the hero sets a trap.

3. Take advantage of the advantage. I fenced in college, and everyone once in a while I'd come across some guy who fought real aggressively, jumping in and attacking as fast as possible. I would reverse-lunge/duck (ie, move out of the way) and stick my sword out so the tip was where he was about to land. The moral of the story: the faster they are, the faster they impale themselves. Your villain might not be that stupid, but any trump can be turned.

Just keep at it, you'll figure something out.

[ErylRavenwell]

Perhaps both should die. The price for killing such a physically superior creature. Then, in my novel, the world is a brutal, cynical place. Anyway, killing that creature should come at a price. Something like fighting on the roof of a building, the beast charging the protag, and he used a flash-bang, blinding the creature and himself in the process. Of course the beast fell and died. Short, fast and brutal :)

[SirTimberWolf]

Wow, I go to work and look what happens :P

Thank you all for your information and input. I particularly enjoyed the rundown of cop outs, very eye opening actually. Having been a reader for a while (since the 3rd grade?) I'd kind of forgotten that such endings exist, guess I've been fortunate to pick up good books, for the most part XD

Red Robin: His motivations are the same as one of my other characters (one of the protag's allies) Simply to end the war between the bad guys and good guys, for his daughter's sake. Unfortunately for him things have gotten a little out of his control. Those that 'serve' him are also fanatical about their cause. They see these people (Kattah) as a threat to humanity, so they're trying to destroy them utterly. Hayden is kind of stuck playing director.

Not to say he doesn't push when it needs to be pushed, but he's more of a 'do-er' than a leader per-se. He's just like the common grunt, only difference is that he has a large scale picture of how things are going and such. I don't see him as all big and ebil (yes, ebil) and neither does he really, but when it comes down to it, the cost of winning the war for his 'side' leads to some ghastly creations and experiments. Like using volunteers (and non) to create spies/infiltration units to get into the 'good guys' ranks. Which is what makes this facility so important in the larger sense of things.

I've been considering something like this:

As they go through the facility, planting charges and taking any research stuff they find (computer drives, paperwork, everything else) they also extricate one of these infiltration units, only 'she' isn't a volunteer (Not from the bad guys' side) so they take her with them as proof to the good guys that this stuff is going on (and inadvertently set up the dominos for book 2) while they're making their escape under heavy fire the girl they found (Crystal) is wounded.
Their medic/demolitions member is tending her when they get attacked and driven back. Hayden is with his men, trying to push them into a waiting ambush. The member jams a pair of forceps in her pocket with the detonator and accidently completes the circut for a set of explosives which is set under the only tunnel out of the facility and several others throughout the building.
This tunnel (a suspended walkway really) looks in on a pair of operating rooms. Jon and Hayden are both dropped into the operating rooms and while one of Hayden's men is killed the other is functional, taking shots at the team while they begin receiving fire from the other side. Jon's first reaction is to try and get out, door is blocked off by debris. Fire alarm starts going off.
We go from there.

I thought about that disadvantage actually. It'd make perfect sense, even their combat armor (the good guys') is designed with their weakness in mind. It'd be extremely foolish to have him leave it exposed. But here lies the problem. Hayden _must_ survive. . .

Here's my other thing:

I thought about Hayden using his weight over Jon's sister (Samantha) to create confusion within the team. Sam made a deal with Hayden to give him Kat (Jon's love interest) to get their lives back and her lover out of one of his hospitals (She was shot earlier in the book) I was thinking he'd pull this as his final ace in the whole to escape, skin in tact. Even though it sounds kind of corny, it's an immense struggle for Sam (a main POV character) throughout the book.

I suppose it'd be plasauble that Jon would have to adapt to Hayden's fighting style(s) and try to predict his moves, though ultimately in a very real sense, there's no way 30 days of very abriviated combat training (mostly like MOUT style 'enter and clear a room' with some hand to hand on the side) is going to stand up against almost 400 years of practiced physical combat. (They live for a long time, did I mention that? :s) Although, aside from pride, I could see him making a minor mistake that might open the door to a possible victory; his territorial nature. (All Kattah have this trait) But again, it sounds like he's defeating himself.

I'm going to take another shot at this tomorrow, it's 0100 and I'm tired. :) Thanks for the replies :D

[Chris Grey]

Ah, more questions arise:

If the Kattah are, as a race, so superior to humans, why don't they rule the world? How has humanity remained competitive in the long run? How, too, did the team even manage to get this far in vs such a superior foe? Whatever the answer is, can't you use that?

You could also Mercutio him. It's been done before, but have someone who's emotionally invested in both sides (Samantha, maybe Hayden's daughter, etc) step in to try to stop the fighting (ie, stop Hayden from killing Jon). Maybe Hayden accidentally mows down this person, maybe his combat reflexes give him time to stop before he kills the wrong person. Maybe Jon's too much a rookie and can't stop his attack, which Hayden wouldn't dodge because he's distracted. Whether the interloper lives is up to you.

Life is full of possibilities.

[glutton]

You could always just have your protag pull an "Edge" (from WWE). ;) Just wait until after Hayden has been worn down from going through a series of grueling battles, then attack him, hit with a single running tackle, and pin him 1-2-3 (or the equivalent lol, not suggesting an actual wrestling match for the climax).

Of course, that's not exactly heroic, but if you can't win in a fair fight...

[Tornadoboy]

I don't know if this will inspire any ideas, but I recently read a novel with a seemingly unstoppable madman for the antag.
In the finale the protags managed to stop his plans but he still gets away, then in front of one of his supposed allies he goes into a long monologue about all the ambitious and evil plans he has for the future. Said ally simply rolls his eyes and says “I’ve had enough of you”, then nonchalantly shoots him in the forehead, instantly killing a villain which only pages before had seemed so impervious.

Obviously this was quite a different way to end a thriller, but I liked it, in fact I loved it! It was so deliciously poetic and ironic! So maybe you could have your antag die but not at the hands of the protag, perhaps being killed by his/hers/its own arrogance, by poetic justice or by a once trusted ally?

[Dawnstorm]

These poeple (in the book, they're called Kattah) have tails which extend about 6-10 feet from their spines depending on their age.

Hi,

I'm being off topic, but I have to share an association: Kattah, tails...

Look, Kattas (http://www.naturfoto-online.de/katta-fotos-1.htm)!

Any inspiration of yours?

(If so, perhaps some deliberate biological analogy could provide a clue? (I don't want to be entirely off topic.))

[SouthernFriedJulie]

I'm getting in the conversation late, but I have a suggestion.

Have you ever roleplayed? Many of the antags seem invulnerable, which forces the players/characters to use their mind to outwit the antag. In fact, storytellers love to make characters for antagonists that are darn near impossible to kill.

I write on several roleplaying forums that are based with inhuman characters. Sometimes the mortals have a better advantage in certain times of day, with religious relics, or by accidently picking up something that is the antag's weak point.

Maybe you can check out some roleplaying books that have campaigns already outlined to give you some ending inspiration unless you already have yours planned now.

[SirTimberWolf]

Chris: Fair question and one that comes up quite frequently.

The Kattah have _very_ low birth rates (rarely double digit) because of cultural stigma (the possibility of loosing a child's parents early on in the child's life, something very sacred in their culture) they also don't breed male Kattah (Hayden is the only one in existance at the beginning) In addition to this they have reproduction cycles (pretty much like an animal's heat cycle) which only happens once or twice a year.

On top of these disadvantages, they have HUGE callorie requirements (Something we see through one of the characters' eyes as she starves after only a couple of days without food)

None of this really applies to the situation at hand (but we do see some of Hayden's motivation explained; like how he was held up as some kind of savior of their race and so on which lead him to strike out on his own.)

Kattah: Actually the name comes from the Japaneese; within the book the Japaneese are old allies of the people. Before they (the Kattah) came to them, they had no name for themselves. The Japaneese gave the Kattah their name, something they wear with a certain amount of pride to this day. (Kind of wonky maybe but we're talking about a group of people who didn't really have a spoken language until somewhere around 800 AD, they communicated (and some still do) with pheremone signatures and such)

Say, now there's an idea. . . A lab has chemicals, formaldahyde and stuff, maybe if those were employed when Jon finds out Hayden IS one of them and his first attempt (the tail) doesn't work. . . That's an interesting thought. . . I could see that working.

Tornado: A good idea, I wish I could get his allies out there but Aleaf goes back to college shortly before he leaves for the facility and Jackie (A Kattah spy that is currently Hayden's love interest) is in bed with a sickness that he gave her (Another side effect of their biology, it tries to adapt itself to the sexual partner's DNA, causing both of them some discomfort or out and out bed-ridden sickness as they get older. It only lasts for a few weeks (for the human) or hours/days for the Kattah. But it can be fatal (In Hayden's case, it would be fatal to Jackie unless she underwent some serious treatment to combat the effects.)

*ahem* It'd be a good basic point to work from though, en-route to the facility he IS thinking about the future, Jackie's, Aleafs, the whole war in general. Not only is he not expecting the team to show up at the facility, he's also got his mind on the people close to him.

That'd actually be quite good, he wouldn't be nutered in terms of his physical ability, even if he wasn't 100% on his game mentally. . . Make it small but noticable. Hrm. . . :o

[Chris Grey]

I don't know if this will inspire any ideas, but I recently read a novel with a seemingly unstoppable madman for the antag.
In the finale the protags managed to stop his plans but he still gets away, then in front of one of his supposed allies he goes into a long monologue about all the ambitious and evil plans he has for the future. Said ally simply rolls his eyes and says “I’ve had enough of you”, then nonchalantly shoots him in the forehead, instantly killing a villain which only pages before had seemed so impervious.

Obviously this was quite a different way to end a thriller, but I liked it, in fact I loved it! It was so deliciously poetic and ironic! So maybe you could have your antag die but not at the hands of the protag, perhaps being killed by his/hers/its own arrogance, by poetic justice or by a once trusted ally?


Think of Scar's death in The Lion King. Simba has him cornered and Scar badmouths the hyenas while pleading for his life. Simba spares him, the hyenas do not.

[Tia Nevitt]

But unless my antagonist was fatally wounded, he wouldn't have anything to fear from my protag. My protag isn't nearly as trained as my antagonist (Hayden) is. To top that off, Hayden is also about 4 or 5 times faster than my protag (Jon) because he isn't human.


It's actually good that the odds are so stacked against your protag. It will really make your readers sweat for him, wondering how he could possibly survive this, much less win. Almost insuperable odds are always good!

Others suggested that the protag outsmart the antag. I think that this is good advice. Just sit for a few days and try to figure out how he could do this, within the rules that you have already set up in your book. Watch good-vs-evil movies to spur your imagination. Make it something unexpected, that will delight your readers.

Tia