No rhyme without meter? What?

[skelly]

in a crit that I read recently, someone (I won't say who...I'm not calling anybody out) made the rather broad statement that, in poetry, you cannot have rhyme without meter. Does anybody else adhere to this? I think it is a lot of malarky, myself, and I cheerfully write rhymed poetry that does not have any meter.

UNLESS you have a very broad interpretation of the term "meter," to include what I might call a "rhythmic flow." I do believe that there is a certain "rhythm" in poetry that distinguishes it from prose, and this rhythm is created by the words that I choose to use--but not by any strict adherence to stressed or unstressed syllabic combinations, which is what I call "meter."

What do the rest of you think?

[LimeyDawg]

I don't think anyone can disagree with you under the strict parameters you've established in your question.

in a crit that I read recently, someone (I won't say who...I'm not calling anybody out) made the rather broad statement that, in poetry, you cannot have rhyme without meter. Does anybody else adhere to this? I think it is a lot of malarky, myself, and I cheerfully write rhymed poetry that does not have any meter.

UNLESS you have a very broad interpretation of the term "meter," to include what I might call a "rhythmic flow." I do believe that there is a certain "rhythm" in poetry that distinguishes it from prose, and this rhythm is created by the words that I choose to use--but not by any strict adherence to stressed or unstressed syllabic combinations, which is what I call "meter."

What do the rest of you think?

[scarletpeaches]

All I know is I don't like free verse, or poems without rhyme AND meter. I just don't 'get' any other sort of poetry, so that's what I read, and that's what I write.

[Pat~]

Probably what the critter meant was that typically rhymed poems are supposed to also have meter. They usually follow a pattern of some sort in structure as well as meter.

[davids]

Is not a meter about a yard or so? I got rhythm I got rhythm I got twelve kids who could ask for anything more-contraceptive hymn as sung by my Catholic friends!!

Now-if you ask us about any of the above questions-BTHOOM!

[LimeyDawg]

All I know is I don't like free verse, or poems without rhyme AND meter. I just don't 'get' any other sort of poetry, so that's what I read, and that's what I write.

Sing it my sweet Dundee dumpling

Si metrum non habet, non est poema.

[davids]

Sing it my sweet Dundee dumpling

Si metrum non habet, non est poema.

Wenn du dast tust must du auch es sauber machen!!!!

[scarletpeaches]

Probably what the critter meant was that typically rhymed poems are supposed to also have meter. They usually follow a pattern of some sort in structure as well as meter.

I could be wrong, but I don't think heroic verse has a typical metric pattern, or the clerihew (where certainly the last two lines are often completely out of whack, to use a genuine poetic term).

[davids]

I could be wrong, but I don't think heroic verse has a typical metric pattern, or the clerihew (where certainly the last two lines are often completely out of whack, to use a genuine poetic term).

Christ you guys sure know a hell of a lot about poetry! I think-therefore-er-oh hell I think I will go write an heroic node to the Goddess of Cypriotic chastity!

[scarletpeaches]

davids the lobster
once was a mobster
he came out of his shell
so we all say "Didn't he do well?"

^^^Voila, a clerihew. :D

[davids]

davids the lobster
once was a mobster
he came out of his shell
so we all say "Didn't he do well?"

^^^Voila, a clerihew. :D


Voila a whatahew? You silly you!!!! You still owe me one about something you promised me in a thread this week and as usual I have not a freakin' clue what it was-but I had looked forward to it-now I am all sad and am gonna go kill somebody-figurativatiously of course!

[LimeyDawg]

Wenn du dast tust must du auch es sauber machen!!!!
I'm always clean, baby.

[scarletpeaches]

Voila a whatahew? You silly you!!!! You still owe me one about something you promised me in a thread this week and as usual I have not a freakin' clue what it was-but I had looked forward to it-now I am all sad and am gonna go kill somebody-figurativatiously of course!

I promised you a sonnet about hairy bum luv apparently...why do I talk myself into these things?

I still need a rhyme for 'buttocks in the shower'. :D

[davids]

I'm always clean, baby.


HA-das habe ich so oft gehort-wie umlauts im Nuttenhouse-rot zone schlampe! A loveable one but nevertheless a schlampe!!!! Clean up I should think!

[LimeyDawg]

You've done what so often that you umlaut in the nut house like a red-light district what???? Damned translation software...won't tell me the naughty words, lol.

[LimeyDawg]

umlaut...umlaut??? That's the word in that Scorpions song where I can't figure out what the hey Mr. Schenker is singing...what is that? gonna have to google it.

[davids]

You've done what so often that you umlaut in the nut house like a red-light district what???? Damned translation software...won't tell me the naughty words, lol.

See I learned my German in a whore house and bars and all the good places!!!!

[LimeyDawg]

google gave me schlampe too, lol. Pretty close to what I thought...

[LimeyDawg]

so...you get it so often your screaming in the nuthouse like a red-light district slut...??? Uh, thanks for sharing, lol....sounds like you spent some time around Kyserslautern.

[davids]

umlaut...umlaut??? That's the word in that Scorpions song where I can't figure out what the hey Mr. Schenker is singing...what is that? gonna have to google it.

Don't bother it's those damnable little .. above certain letters that change the sound of them-uberschlank-too thin-the u has to have an umlaut over it which makes the difference for example between oohberschlank and youberschlank. When I write reviews for German magazines which I still do on occasion-classical stuff-my wife who may or may not be over there has to re write em with the umlauts-the damn magazine wont do it and I have not found a key board here that has em and frankly I'd rather have her or my professor buddy do em. They both owe me big time. If you have the words I'll translate em-to the song that is!!!!

Actually I did-they have a nice little theatre there where I worked while I was still and anfanger!!

They have some fine whores there and a reasonably good beer!

[Pat~]

I could be wrong, but I don't think heroic verse has a typical metric pattern, or the clerihew (where certainly the last two lines are often completely out of whack, to use a genuine poetic term).

Yeesh, had to look up clerihew! :D I'm pretty sure most of the epic poetry (if that's what you mean with the heroic verse) had a set meter; either iambic pentameter or dactyllic hexameter. But there may be an exception I'm not aware of...

Love the new avatar!

[Norman D Gutter]

Well, I was the one who said in a crit that rhyme without meter does not work, so I'd better step to the plate here.

IMHO, rhyme without meter does not work. I have yet to read a poem that rhymes from end to end, and which does not have any metrical, and which is what I would call a good poem. Some non-metrical poems will use such sonic devices as internal rhyme and occasional end rhymes, and use these very well. Some free verse poems incorporate occasional or partial meter, for phrases or for lines or individual strophes.

I don't know why this is, whether it is strictly reader expectations, or if it is something inherent in the English language. If reader expectation, you would think that by this time someone would have written a non-metrical poem with full rhymes that is excellent that would have changed reader expectations.

For some reason, metrical poems that don't rhyme tend to work very well, when done well of course. Many examples of blank verse exist that have stood the test of time and been judged as excellent.

It just doesn't seem to work the other way around.

NDG

[Writer???]

I promised you a sonnet about hairy bum luv apparently...why do I talk myself into these things?

I still need a rhyme for 'buttocks in the shower'. :D

depends who we're talking about...
"Sagging globes of fading power"

or

"Shielding orbs to puckered flower"

or

"Hairy, flat - once mighty tower,"

:ROFL:

[skelly]

Well, I was the one who said in a crit that rhyme without meter does not work, so I'd better step to the plate here.

IMHO, rhyme without meter does not work. I have yet to read a poem that rhymes from end to end, and which does not have any metrical, and which is what I would call a good poem. Some non-metrical poems will use such sonic devices as internal rhyme and occasional end rhymes, and use these very well. Some free verse poems incorporate occasional or partial meter, for phrases or for lines or individual strophes.

I don't know why this is, whether it is strictly reader expectations, or if it is something inherent in the English language. If reader expectation, you would think that by this time someone would have written a non-metrical poem with full rhymes that is excellent that would have changed reader expectations.

For some reason, metrical poems that don't rhyme tend to work very well, when done well of course. Many examples of blank verse exist that have stood the test of time and been judged as excellent.

It just doesn't seem to work the other way around.

NDG
Please don't think for a moment that I was trying to "call you out" on the issue. Not at all. I always enjoy reading your posts and learn a great deal from them. I just wanted to see what other people thought on the subject. You seem to have softened your position from "can't have" to :doesn't seem to work," which I suppose we can agree to disagree about. Thanks for clarifying this issue for me NDG.

[Dollywagon]

I promised you a sonnet about hairy bum luv apparently...why do I talk myself into these things?

I still need a rhyme for 'buttocks in the shower'. :D

'Steely buns of latent power'

[louiscypher]

T'would depend on the form of whatever piece (genre) we're speaking of here IMO.

Try to write a piece in iambic pentameter without it...HAA! Tis the music of the mind that ... and can't be refuted! And I'm not just saying sonnet neither?

A lyrical piece however, anything goes! See, Jeff Lynne:ELO, Wagner: The Ring, Savage Garden: Anything, and then there's the masters and mistressess... Elton J and his lyricist: Son for A Guy, Robby Smith: Running Through The Trees, Kate Bush: anything, and Babs: hubba hubba and Them Bee Gees ... to name but a few!


At best, free verse without internal/clever rhymes or meter, sucks big time!
In fact, I suck ... but at least I'm willing to give em all a fair go!

J

[Norman D Gutter]

Please don't think for a moment that I was trying to "call you out" on the issue. Not at all. I always enjoy reading your posts and learn a great deal from them. I just wanted to see what other people thought on the subject. You seem to have softened your position from "can't have" to :doesn't seem to work," which I suppose we can agree to disagree about. Thanks for clarifying this issue for me NDG.

Skelly:

I have no problems with anything you said. I figured my statement in the crit would be disputed, or found difficult to believe, and I might have to defend it. Discussion of the principle I brought up is perfectly appropriate. I don't believe, however, that I softened my position on rhyme without meter. In the critique of the poem I wrote:

...I will go a bit further and say a rhyming poem should have a regular metrical pattern. It is a fact of poetic life that rhyme does not work without meter. Meter can stand alone without rhyme (blank verse) but not the other way around....

So I think I spoke consistently between the two posts.

I might also add that I would be happy to be proved wrong in my position. I'm still looking for a non-metrical poem with full rhymes, that is excellent and has passed the judgment of history as an excellent poem. I haven't found any so far. Since I don't like the thought that poetry is limited in the way I said, I hope I'm wrong.

NDG

[JRH]

Rhythm and Rhyme in Poetry

Rhythm is the pattern or flow of sound created by the arrangement of stressed and unstressed syllables in accentual verse or of long and short syllables in quantitative verse, thus the the Rhythm of any given line (or a Stanza) is determined my the dominant "Metric Unit within it.

Meter, for most practical purposes is the measured arrangement of words in poetry, as by accentual rhythm, syllabic quantity, or the number of syllables in a line, (such as iambic pentameter), determined by the kind and number of metrical units in a line or the rhythmic pattern of a stanza, determined by the kind and number of lines.

Part of the problem in discussing Rhythm is that the "Metric Units" are described as the "Meter" whereas, in fact, they are only the units that make up the line which is the actual measure of the "Meter"

Classic poetic forms like the Sonnet, the Rondelle, and Odes and Ballads were designed to be CONSISTANT in their Rhythm and Meter and such is generally referred to as "Regular Meter" but Meter can be Irregular as well having different line lengths for alternate lines (or different lengths or numbers of lines within a Stanza)

Modern Poets consider Free Verse to be Verse without Rhythm, Meter or Rhyme, but they are wrong. Free Verse can contain ANY or ALL of the three as long as they are IRREGULAR and don't conform to a SET PATTERN .

ALL of the limitations ascribed to various types of Verse can, in practice, be ignored and most, quite often, are, so to say that Metered Verse has to conform to Set Patterns or that Free Verse can't contain Rhythm or Rhyme shows that one is misinformed.

Eliot's "Prufrock" s an excellent example of blending elements of Free Verse with Meter and irregular Rhyme, and Yeats's and Frost did the same in much of their work in an effort to emulate "natural" speech rhythms. Moreover, I have many Poems on this Board which illustrate the practice including "Nocturnal", "New Year's Eve", "Once A Poet", Within The Mists" and "the Turning Page" which are NOT patterned, and thus qualify as "Free Verse" but are generally metrical and full of irregular Rhymes.

If someone wants to say that they don't think that Rhyme works when it's used within Free Verse, or that Metered Verse has to be "rigid" in its patterns, that may well reflect the personal taste of those individuals , but that has nothing to do with the realities of what actually is acceptable, and has often been practiced..

Think about it..

James R. Hoye (JRH)

P.S. Just a side note to Louis Cypher, I think you will find that Blank Verse as done by many from Shakespeare thru Frost is unrhymed Iambic Pentameter, and as for using contemporary Song Lyrics as examples of irregular Metrical Poetry, remember that Song Writing is in itself a separate skill having different restrictions and allowing more room for variation than Structured Metrical Poetry does.

[Magdalen]

Hassocks without power

Mushroom caps in the bower

Tick-tocks on the hour

[Magdalen]

Is there absolutely No discernible pattern in the number of syllables between your rhymes? Are you sure? It's okay, either way, if you rhyme alot and then stop, or not. Stop.
Doesn't even strictly measured meter allow for "make-Up" syllables in subsequent lines? If you meter out at 7.375 (or 11.25 as I do) syllables (and/or accents between rhymes) there's still a rhythm going isn't there. Maybe the critter just didn't like your beat.

[JRH]

Hi Pat,

You're quite correct in your comments and you'll note I've changed the original phrasing. Thanks for calling me on it. I got a little carried away I guess.

JRH

[Pat~]

No problem, JRH. The tidying up is appreciated. ;)

[louiscypher]

Hmmm... so on the one hand you're entitled to your opinions and their craft, while on the other crafting them finds a social hole to be a nil sum gain: don't figure, that?

J

[Norman D Gutter]

James:

I'm not quite sure how to answer your post. I suppose to some extent the notion that rhyme without meter doesn't work is merely my opinion. However, I'm still waiting to find that poem that rhymes but has no sense of meter or rhythm and "works"--which I define as being accepted by the experts as being a poem of excellence. Prufrock is a good example of a free verse poem that has much meter, and incorporates occasional rhyme, both internal and end. But I do not consider it a rhyming poem.

As I said to Skelly, I'd be happy to be proved wrong, and be shown a non-metrical poem that fully rhymes and is of high enough quality that it could be considered excellent. I'm sure that rhyme without meter has often been practiced, but has it ever been excellent?

Best Regards,
NDG

[ddgryphon]

I'll offer the following:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=693827&postcount=2

You, Doctor Martin by Anne Sexton who often uses rhyme without meter--or uses complex meter and interesting rhyme schemes of her own devising.

Give that a go.

[JRH]

Norman,

Considering the way you phrased that, it might be difficult to find any thing you would be satisfied with as it depends on what you will accept as non metrical. Technically, any Poem with staggered lines like those by Dickenson or this one by Robert Burns would qualify.

******

A Red Red Rose

O my Luve's like a red, red rose,
That's newly sprung in June:
O my Luve's like the melodie,
That's sweetly play'd in tune.

As fair art thou, my bonie lass,
So deep in luve am I;
And I will luve thee still, my dear,
Till a' the seas gang dry.

Till a' the seas gang dry, my dear,
And the rocks melt wi' the sun;
And I will luve thee still, my dear,
While the sands o' life shall run.

And fare-thee-weel, my only Luve!
And fare-thee-weel, a while!
And I will come again, my Luve,
Tho' 'twere ten thousand mile!

*******

If that's not sufficent you might look to humorus Verse like that by Ogden Nash such as these:

*******

A Caution To Everybody

Consider the auk;
Becoming extinct because he forgot how to fly, and could only walk.
Consider man, who may well become extinct
Because he forgot how to walk and learned how to fly before he thinked.
______


Columbus

Once upon a time there was an Italian,
And some people thought he was a rapscallion,
But he wasn't offended,
Because other people thought he was splendid,
And he said the world was round,
And everybody made an uncomplimentary sound,
But he went and tried to borrow some money from Ferdinand
But Ferdinand said America was a bird in the bush and he'd rather have a berdinand,
But Columbus' brain was fertile, it wasn't arid,
And he remembered that Ferdinand was married,
And he thought, there is no wife like a misunderstood one,
Because if her husband thinks something is a terrible idea she is bound to think it a good one,
So he perfumed his handkerchief with bay rum and citronella,
And he went to see Isabella,
And he looked wonderful but he had never felt sillier,
And she said, I can't place the face but the aroma is familiar,
And Columbus didn't say a word,
All he said was, I am Columbus, the fifteenth-century Admiral Byrd,
And, just as he thought, her disposition was very malleable,
And she said, Here are my jewels, and she wasn't penurious like Cornelia the mother of the Gracchi, she wasn't referring to her children, no, she was referring to her jewels, which were very very valuable,
So Columbus said, Somebody show me the sunset and somebody did and he set sail for it,
And he discovered America and they put him in jail for it,
And the fetters gave him welts,
And they named America after somebody else,
So the sad fate of Columbus ought to be pointed out to every child and every voter,
Because it has a very important moral, which is, Don't be a discoverer, be a promoter.

******

And if you don't consider "humor", Poetry, try something like this of mine which is regular except in stanza length and counter point refrain.

Mountain Morning

And be content,
That filling morning air
With tenderness, that catches something rare
Of mountain beauty, crossed by trickling streams,
Reflecting light absorbed in dawn' new beams;
The mountains picture something precious there.

Each pinnacle stands out, proud and austere,
In awesome beauty, such that some might stare
For hours at such sight as makes up dreams,
And be content.

For though such dawns are lovely anywhere,
In mountains, there is something makes them fair
And closer to perfection of one's dreams,
That one might sit and ponder nature's themes
Of loveliness in silent wistful prayer,

And be content.

Copyright (c) Fall 1960 James R. Hoye

*******

or this one, with persistant if inconsistant Rhyming and variable Rhythm and Meter.

To A Passing Cloud

Woman-curled around the sun,
Disarrayed, wistfully,
Soon heavily grown with thought.....
Disgorge on me,
Perfidious dissertations,
Lost in the mocking laughter of your eye,
And wrapped in mystery.

The blossoms live,
And soon will die,
While all the grasses still grow high.
Let them give deserved attention,
Both to you and I,
Although I stay here evermore,
While you are merely passing by.

Wind rider,
Laughing at my confinement.
Your alignment is with the spheres of heaven.
I eat the leaven,
And drink the thirsty raindrops.

The leaves and buds are open to you,
Bur I am given roots
To bind within myself,
While you find birth and rebirth in light,
And laugh that I live partially in the night
With eyes become sore from gazing on you
Having no recourse but to sigh.

For I must stay here evermore,
And watch you gaily pass me by.

Copyright (c) Spring 1961 James R. Hoye

******

I might even agree with you that few if any have had success at producing non-metric verse that rhymes CONSISTENTLY but I tend to think it could be done and I do think the concepts are not mutually exclusive for all of that, and that rhyme can be used in "Free Verse" in ways that are effective without being consistently patterened.

Hope this clarifies my position.

JRH

[Pat~]

Some good illustrations of exceptions to the rule, JRH--though, when I read that first one, it did seem metrical to me (A Red, Red Rose). I could hear and anticipate a steady beat to that one.

[JRH]

Pat,

Burns "The Red Red Rose" was perhaps NOT the best example, (although it was used on an authoritive website to illustrate the varied line lenghs which together with the Rythem constitutes the Meter).

The lines are basically Iambic Tetrameter alternating with Iambic Trimeter which, in it's time broke the classic mode of having all lines be the same.

Moreover, part of the problem in describing "Meter" is that people confuse the Rhythm (Iambic) with the actual Meter which is the combination of the Rhythm and the line length. (the number of feet per line), thus, alternate line lenghs constituted different meters.

To be honest, Dirk's example by Anne Sexton is better than my Burn's example because Sexton carries her experiments with Rythem and Meter to extremes.

I seem to remember several Poets I encountered in the 60s who played with line lengths and placement but haven't been able to track down any more specific examples. (Maybe Ferlingetti, but he seldom Rhymed in regular patterns).

All I'm really concerned with is making people aware that there are no absolutes in Poetic style and giving them some understanding as to why.

JRH

[Pat~]

I think I understand your point, JRH. There are exceptions to the rule; then again, I'm not sure that anyone's actually arguing that (unless maybe NormanG??).

When I think of a poem having a consistent meter, I think of the poem as a whole, not the individual lines each having the same meter. An example of this is in hymnology, where poetic works were classified according to meter in the old hymn books. So, if "A Red, Red Rose" were a hymn, it would be classified with other hymns that also had an 8 6 8 6 metric pattern. This was called C.M., or 'Common Meter.'

[Norman D Gutter]

James and Pat:

I see Burn's poem as very metrical, in what today is called ballad meter: alternating lines of iambic tetrameter and iambic trimeter (as you said James). Actually, this is nothing more than iambic-septameter broken into two lines for ease of printing and reciting. The Sexton poem is a good one. I need to study it some more (first time I've encountered it), but it does seem to be an example of a good poem that rhymes consistently but which has no metrical pattern. I'd like to see more such poems.

I'm not really arguing there will be exceptions to the rule as I've stated it, for one such exception has been produced (haven't read James' own poems yet). Let me try to rephrase my "rhyme without meter doesn't work" contention. Given that we who post to this site are all pretty much amatuers and/or beginners in poetry--by which I mean unpublished to any great extent, I suggest that poets not write rhyming poems until they have mastered meter, for, of the two poetic devices, meter is found more often than rhyme in good poetry. Then, I suggest that poets add rhyme to their meter, and become masters at that. Then, and only then, might a poet experiment and see if they can figure out how to effectively use rhyme without meter.

Or, as an alternative "career path" in poetry, the free verse path, a path that I am not following and so hesitate to discuss, I suggest the poet master free verse without either rhyme or meter, learning to maximize such devices as imagery and metaphore and sonics (which would include occasional and internal rhymes). Then, and only then, should a poet see if they can effectively write a rhyming, free verse poem.

My belief is that most poets, when they start out writing poetry and assuming they have not studied the craft in acedemia, begin by writing rhyming poems because that's what they believe makes something a poem. Some rough concept of meter may be in mind from nursery rhymes and such. I know that's how I began. I had to take a couple of hard crits at poetry boards to understand that meter should come before rhyme as one learns poetry, and that I had a lot of studying to do. Many poets, the ones I call the "self-expression crowd who don't believe any study is necessary to write poetry, can't be bothered with meter, as it is more difficult to master than rhyme. To these I say: learn meter before rhyme. Study, study, study meter. Ditch rhyme until you dream in iambs, trochees, and anapests. Then add rhyme.

So, I will modify my original statement: Rhyme without meter in the poems typically posted at Internet poetry critique sites doesn't work, and indeed probably indicates lazyness in learning meter.

Best Regards,
NDG

[skylarburris]

Of course a poem can have rhyme without meter...it's just that MOST poetry that uses rhyme without meter is very, very bad, because the person writing it is usually attempting to be traditional and yet has no concept of form. Most skilled poets write in blank verse, rhymed meter, or free verse. Most unskilled poets write in rhymed verse with no meter (or no consistent meter). This is not to say it cannot be done well; it is simply a general observation--something I have noticed from reading hundreds of poetry submissions a year.

[Pat~]

Skylar, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Norman, I don't think beginning poets need to master poetry necessarily in the steps you've outlined; it all depends on their leanings. For some, rhyme and meter might be more easily understood and mastered; for others, free verse. In my own case, I'm relatively new to poetry, having just started in the past couple of years. I've had about a dozen or so poems accepted for print publication, and every single one is one with rhyme and meter. It's just the way I think 'poetically.' I'm lost and floundering with free verse, and know very little about what would categorize such as great or even good poetry.

[louiscypher]

I don't think beginning poets need to master poetry... NO, just themselves!

[Pat~]

(It may be easier to master poetry...!)

[davids]

As they say-no rhyme no reason-no fingers no hands-it all beats me to a pulp-save me dear louis save me-I've no clue whatsoever!!!!

[louiscypher]

(It may be easier to master poetry...!)

Or find chook teeth and make God a necklace!
If art were meant to be framed, its ink would come in chains external? Opppsss, seems it does to some!

J

PS: why does seem - to me - nothing wants to evolve within this thing called Poetry!

[Mysti]

I still need a rhyme for 'buttocks in the shower'. :D

With wet hairs curled to resemble a flower.

Okay, I must admit it's nearly 2:30 and I should be sleeping, but I'm hooked to the forum, so my apologies for the incoherent statements that spew from my mind to my fingers...

[Norman D Gutter]

Norman, I don't think beginning poets need to master poetry necessarily in the steps you've outlined; it all depends on their leanings. For some, rhyme and meter might be more easily understood and mastered; for others, free verse.

Pat:

I did in fact present alternatives for how to develop as a poet, and observe that first mastering free verse was one way to go when I said:

Or, as an alternative "career path" in poetry, the free verse path, a path that I am not following and so hesitate to discuss, I suggest the poet master free verse without either rhyme or meter, learning to maximize such devices as imagery and metaphore and sonics (which would include occasional and internal rhymes). Then, and only then, should a poet see if they can effectively write a rhyming, free verse poem.

One of my beefs is that so many people see poetry as an art that requires no study. "Express yourself" is sufficient to make words broken randomly into lines poetry, and don't criticize or suggest a period of a few years of study to learn how to do it excellently. So we wind up with rhyme without meter awfully done, free verse without the slightest use of poetic devices.

Why is it that people understand that all art requires years of study and development, except poetry?

NDG

[louiscypher]

'buttocks in the shower

Rut rocks me to/o Bower

[davids]

I see your point Norman-but hell I don't consider myself a genuine poet-for me it is just the fun of writing whatever some call poetry and I have no idea what it is-hence perhaps my silly prose-try-I am not being flippant-in an earlier life some people may say was of an artistic bent I spent-well- a lifetime trying to perfect the not perfectable-so I agree with you but me? Hell no!

[louiscypher]

Why do you need to be a poet to be a poet lobster?
Shit man, I'm a shit can on legs who's neither better nor worse than any before, with, nor after me. But hey, I'll give anything a go less them regimes?

*wink*

J

and paint ya shell pink, will ya ... Pink's tuff

[dclary]

James:

I'm not quite sure how to answer your post. I suppose to some extent the notion that rhyme without meter doesn't work is merely my opinion. However, I'm still waiting to find that poem that rhymes but has no sense of meter or rhythm and "works"--which I define as being accepted by the experts as being a poem of excellence. Prufrock is a good example of a free verse poem that has much meter, and incorporates occasional rhyme, both internal and end. But I do not consider it a rhyming poem.

As I said to Skelly, I'd be happy to be proved wrong, and be shown a non-metrical poem that fully rhymes and is of high enough quality that it could be considered excellent. I'm sure that rhyme without meter has often been practiced, but has it ever been excellent?

Best Regards,
NDG

What about:
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=771840#post771840

Last word/first word rhymes in each couplet. No other meter.