Please Show Me Some Uneducated Published Authors.

[SouthernFriedJulie]

I'm wondering if someone can point me in the direction of some novelists who do not have an extensive education. I need some examples because to be brutually honest about myself, I have virtually no education and I'm terrified.

Here's the deal. I finished 8th grade, but was too busy with the trials of changing hormones and teen angst to finish the rest. I do have a GED, finally went back later when I was 18 to get it. BUT, my main concern is that I feel I don't have an extensive enough vocabulary nor have any idea of the right words to use to make my novel more interesting.

I'm pretty bare bones when it comes to descriptions, though it's more of a preference. I hate paragraphs of descriptions, so I don't want to write that way but I do want the descriptions I have to stand out. AND I don't want to use 'said' or 'spoke' over and over...I hope I'm not being too shadowy or vague here.

I shared the introduction to the book my husband and I are working on in SYW, it is a pretty good example of how I write. But, I'm NOT fishing for encouragement, I just need some examples so I can read the works of the 'less' educated writers who have been published to get a feel of...well, just to get to know if what I am doing is right.

By the way, I AM reading everything here at AW that I can find on writing and the how to's, so you know I'm not just posting this as a request for a tutor. Uncle Jim's threads are helping me quite a bit, as are the posts on query letters. Heck, everything here is helping and I'm tearing into the help threads like porterhouse steaks.

[Pagey's_Girl]

I don't have any examples, but judging from your post, what you're doing sounds right to me. It's the storytelling that makes a novel great, not the number of big fancy words in it. :)

BTW, if you want a fun way to boost your vocabulary, sign up for the Word of the Day at www.yourdictionary.com. I've discovered the name for a lot of things I never knew had one that way.

[eqb]

You're worrying too much.

Don't waste time comparing yourself to other writers--that way lies madness. You'll know when you're "doing it right" by the reactions of readers and editors.

Now I need to go off and take my own advice. :)

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

Just as in almost any other profession, you're going to find educational levels for individual writers are all over the map. Having a PhD isn't going to make you a writer - and NOT having one isn't going to keep you from it.

[Tornadoboy]

The real question is can you tell a story that the reader will care about? Such things as propper grammar are simply a matter of mechanics and not artistic creation, that can always be rectified with hard work and self education.

I like what Stephen King once said (paraphrasing):

Write the first draft with the door closed, and only tell yourself the story.

Then rewrite with the door open, trying to make the story understandable to the rest of the world.

P.S.
Obviously my grammar is horrible too, so I hope I'm right about what I just said! :D

[Susan Gable]

Julie,

If it makes you feel better, your post demonstrates stronger grammar skills than some folks I know who've received a college degree. (Not sure HOW they managed to do that, but they did.)

You seem to be a self-directed learner -- and that means far more than a piece of paper with a collage name stamped on it. Because it means you can learn whatever you need to -- indeed, you're already working on educating yourself about writing. You're doing your homework.

Best of luck to you, and YOU GO, girl! :)

Susan G.

[maddythemad]

I don't think it matters (but then again, I only have a ninth-grade education. :tongue) I think writers can sometimes worry too much about having a PHD or a degree from a fancy college, when really all that matters is that you have an interesting story to tell and a unique or fresh view of things. Keep writing your book, keep trying to make it the best it can be, and when you submit it you will find out if it is publishable or not-- but even if you don't sell this one, don't give up. Write a second novel and a third novel and a forth novel and try to sell those as well.

[Bufty]

Julie,

Stop being daft.

Getting published is hard work, as is everything that is worth doing. A person's writing is published because that person took the trouble to learn the craft if it didn't come naturally -and it usually doesn't -, and because an Agent felt their writing was good enough.

Writing novels is a craft and has to be learned just like any other craft or skill.

[kristie911]

Remember...you're writing for readers of all levels, you're not writing for college professors. Writing a term paper or a thesis is vastly different from writing a story for "the masses". :) It's usually better to keep it simple anyway.

As long as you have a firm grasp on the mechanics, the length of the words isn't important.

Good luck!

[scarletpeaches]

Oh my god! I left school at sixteen and never went to college or uni beyond short, twelve-week courses to kill time. Does that mean I'm not allowed to be a writer???

[Will Lavender]

The best education you can get as a novelist is right there on the shelves of your local bookstore.

I must have earned a Ph.D. in Stephen King by the time I was 17, and I value that as much as any degree I have.

[SouthernFriedJulie]

Eeek...ok, ok, I get it.

Shows how much I DON'T know about writing and the writers out there [here]. I seriously thought that I was going to be severely limited by that. I'm going to just shut up and write now, k?

I did contradict myself of sorts in my original post. I said I wasn't looking for a tutor, but I did post afterwards in the Mentoring forum, but that's because I wasn't looking for that sort of thing in this forum.

[freshpencils]

Read a lot of books by authors known for their wrting skills. You'll absorb vocabulary and phrasing and paragraphing and etc. by osmosis - and it won't even hurt!

[Bufty]

For that matter, read books by anyone. If you find a book boring and want to throw it against the wall, see if you can work out why and don't write like that.

And vice-versa.

Good luck. :Hug2:

[johnrobison]

I'm a 9th grade high school dropout, and I've done OK. And I don't even have a GED.

[Anne Lyle]

I think a lot of us writers (and yes, I know that's ungrammatical, but I write posts the way I speak) are self-educated in one way or another. I went to university, but it was to study zoology, and essay-writing was only tiny part of that. Nor do I use my degree a great deal in my writing (though it gave me a head start in creating my "alien" species).

My WiP is alternate history, and yet I dropped history at 14 because I found the way that it was taught in my school very dull. Hence, everything I know beyond the basics, I learnt just by reading. And reading. And reading some more...

[Pat~]

A friend of mine has had several books published and she never went to college. She heads our area writers' guild. It seems you've got the basic skills and drive needed; go for it! (BTW, your written vocabulary level should only be at about 5th to 8th grade, anyway, for popular novels--so they say.)

[Jamesaritchie]

I'd say there are no uneducated published writers, but there are a fair number of published writers who have no degree of any kind.

I do think a formal degree, a formal education, is a huge advantage for a writer, and one that gets bigger each year as the world becomes more and more technological. Go down the list of bestselling writers, and you won't find many who lack a formal education. This isn't a coincidence.

But this in no way means you can't educate yourself. If you need a better vocabulary, you can pick it up by reading everything you can get your hands on, including an old-fashioned dictionary. If you want to write better descriptions, then read writers who do this well.

I do, however, think that many who want to be writers concentrate too much on reading novels. Reading novels can help greatly with the writing itself, but it won't give you much to write about, and won't give you the kind of knowledge that should go hand in hand with being a writer.

Read everything, including as much nonfiction as you can find time to read. Be curious. Love to learn. If you have no formal education, then give yourself the best informal education possible.

[Andre_Laurent]

The best education you can get as a novelist is right there on the shelves of your local bookstore.

I must have earned a Ph.D. in Stephen King by the time I was 17, and I value that as much as any degree I have.
Ditto.

[JoNightshade]

I earned my BA in English lit with an emphasis in creative writing. But I can honestly say that didn't teach me how to write. Mainly it was a fun way to pass the time until I got that piece of paper that would get me a good job. I can prove it, because at sixteen I was publishing short stories. So clearly I already knew how! READING taught me how to write. Reading increases your vocabulary, reading gives you patterns and examples and ideas. I was perpetually bored in school, primarily because the information flow was so painstakingly slow. Become an avid reader, and the writing will come.

[maestrowork]

BUT, my main concern is that I feel I don't have an extensive enough vocabulary nor have any idea of the right words to use to make my novel more interesting.


First of all, many writers don't have a college degree.

Second, English is my second language and I had the same concern when I started writing. I didn't feel my vocabulary was good enough. My SAT score (English) wasn't very good -- but that was years ago. I do have college and graduate degress, but they're in science -- not writing or anything remotely close to it. Having a degree in programming a computer didn't really help me learn how to write, especially in a second language.

There are many ways to educate yourself without a formal education. Reading is the best education you can get, and hands-on writing is the best practice one can do. So keep reading -- get your hands on any fiction, no matter what genres -- and keep writing every day. It doesn't matter if it's just a blog or a journal or AW postings or stories -- keep writing.

Join a writing group. Attend community college writing classes. Take any kind of active approach.


I'm pretty bare bones when it comes to descriptions, though it's more of a preference. I hate paragraphs of descriptions, so I don't want to write that way but I do want the descriptions I have to stand out. AND I don't want to use 'said' or 'spoke' over and over...I hope I'm not being too shadowy or vague here.


Nothing wrong with barebone. Many writers write like that, and it's their style. There are many ways to tell a good story. Again, read. Read as much as you can and see what the masters are doing, how they did it. If you find a book you particularly like, study it and see what the writers did right.

And there's nothing wrong with "he said/she said." It's a common misconception that writers should show off their vocabulary by using every alternative of "said."


I just need some examples so I can read the works of the 'less' educated writers who have been published to get a feel of...well, just to get to know if what I am doing is right.

My thought is, aiming low is not the way to go. Just read. Start with the best. Your genres. Out of your genres. And sooner or later, you will find your way.

[Memnon624]

I have a high school education, and a fairly mediocre one at that. Took one class at community college (but didn't finish) and attended a certificate-only class on film-making (which served no practical purpose).

Education has almost nothing to do with it. So long as you're literate, willing to learn, and love to read you've got all the required skills ;)

[Jamesaritchie]

I earned my BA in English lit with an emphasis in creative writing. But I can honestly say that didn't teach me how to write. Mainly it was a fun way to pass the time until I got that piece of paper that would get me a good job. I can prove it, because at sixteen I was publishing short stories. So clearly I already knew how! READING taught me how to write. Reading increases your vocabulary, reading gives you patterns and examples and ideas. I was perpetually bored in school, primarily because the information flow was so painstakingly slow. Become an avid reader, and the writing will come.

I started selling short stories and novels long before I had a degree, as well, but the degree still taught me many things I never would have learned outside of college.

Exceptions are easy to point out, but it's good to keep in mind that they are exceptions. Rare exceptions.

[RLSMiller]

I started selling short stories and novels long before I had a degree, as well, but the degree still taught me many things I never would have learned outside of college.

Exceptions are easy to point out, but it's good to keep in mind that they are exceptions. Rare exceptions.

Rare they may be, but there's nothing stopping people from becoming exceptions if they so wish. If you have the drive and the willingness to learn, you'd be surprised how much you can teach yourself with an internet ready computer, a library card and some time. There's relatively little in college that can't be learned outside of it, certainly nothing that should prevent you from writing a great book.

[maestrowork]

While having a college degree myself...

I'd say a college degree, as much it may help, is absolutely not required for having a writing career.

What you really need are critical thinking, a vivid imagination, an eagerness to learn and improve and study and observe, a curiosity about what's happening in the world, a good understanding of human nature and the human conditions, and an appreciation of good stories.

A college degree may help sharpen those skills and talent -- it certainly has merits -- but there are so many different ways to acquire those skills and polish your talent.

Find your own way.

[Button]

One doesn't have to go to college to learn about writing. It might help with certain things though.

But... you can take writing classes. There are tons out there. There are a number of books out there to educate yourself on how to write better. Give yourself the education you need to make your book salable.

[Will Lavender]

Apart from JAR's posts, I feel that college is sort of being whipped around in this thread.

I'll put in a good word for it.

I was introduced to a world of good literature in college, literature I would have never read otherwise. And while an MFA might not necessarily "teach" you much about the craft of writing, my MFA was invaluable in that I gained confidence and...authority (for lack of a better word) in my writing simply from receiving an everyday deluge of criticism and praise.

If I didn't have a college or graduate degree, I might still get published. But I likely wouldn't be lucky enough to be writing (temporarily at least) for a living.

[virtue_summer]

Ray Bradbury never went to college but certainly became a huge success as a science fiction author. Holly Lisle (I think she also writes fantasy and science fiction) doesn't have a college degree. Frank McCourt who wrote the hugely successful memoir Angela's Ashes never finished high school. He read a lot and taught himself so much that he later managed to talk the dean of a college into letting him in, without that high school diploma. So he did get a degree, but it wasn't until much later and until he was already impressing people with the education he'd given himself. Jean Auel, author of the Earth's Children series about prehistoric man, studied math, science, and business in college. The truth is that a lot of authors even with a college degree didn't get that degree in English and don't attribute their success to it. A college degree is not necessary to be a writer. The important thing is to educate yourself by reading a lot and writing a lot. That's the only way to learn and improve.

[JoNightshade]

With those who are lauding a college education, I agree that it can give you a great deal. It gives you community, a solid foundation to work from, and a fantastic knowledge of the classics. It's all the good stuff in one place. For me, it made me aware of WHY I was doing the things I was already doing with my writing, intuitively. Great, if you can afford the money and time. Increasingly necessary in the workplace. But for writing novels? Not a requirement at all.

Like someone else said, if you have the drive, you can do almost anything by yourself. School is not a place or an institution, it's a state of mind. It's a willingness to learn from everything at your disposal. Just a personal example... I am not even sure my father got his GED. He's got some weird form of dyslexia so that he can read, but not spell even the simplest words. But he has been a lifelong reader. He started out, literally, with nothing. His parents were about as poor as you can get in America. But through reading (and life experience), he became a master carpenter who can literally build a mansion, from the ground up, BY HIMSELF. He learned how to sail. He taught himself celestial navigation. He learned how to windsurf. He taught himself how to do amazing wood-turning and is now making quite a bit off of that. And he's living in a million-dollar house. And he put me through college. I learned from my dad that you can do anything you set your mind to-- as long as you have the determination and you know how to read. He's impressed that upon me my entire life... so is it any wonder I became a writer?!? :)

School can help, but someone with determination and imagination will do better than a lethargic, uninterested grad student.

[blacbird]

Famously, Ray Bradbury, who does not lack for ego and has written extensively about how he got to be a famous writer.

caw

[SpookyWriter]

Famously, Ray Bradbury, who does not lack for ego and has written extensively about how he got to be a famous writer.

cawOh yeah. We's been thinking it's time to revisit the master again. Have we?

1. 1947 DARK CARNIVAL
2. 1950 THE MARTIAN CHRONICLES
3. 1951 THE ILLUSTRATED MAN
4. 1953 THE GOLDEN APPLES OF THE SUN
5. 1953 FAHRENHEIT 451
6. 1955 SWITCH ON THE NIGHT
7. 1955 THE OCTOBER COUNTRY
8. 1957 DANDELION WINE
9. 1959 A MEDICINE FOR MELANCHOLY (published in the UK as THE DAY IT RAINED FOREVER)
10. 1962 SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY COMES

[Tish Davidson]

Here's the deal. I finished 8th grade, but was too busy with the trials of changing hormones and teen angst to finish the rest. I do have a GED, finally went back later when I was 18 to get it. BUT, my main concern is that I feel I don't have an extensive enough vocabulary nor have any idea of the right words to use to make my novel more interesting. .

From what I understand, getting a GED is a good bit harder than graduating from high school. For a GED you actually have to show that you know something. At many high schools, all you have to do is show up. Read lots of books. Reed books of authors you admire critically and see how they do transitions, multiple plot strands, description, dialog. The kind of education you need to write a novel isn't necessarily the kind you get in school.

[Medievalist]

Don't worry about it; you're fine. My very favorite editors, one from an SF publisher and one from a very highly thought of university press are both high school drop outs.

It's not education that matters; it's what you've learned, what you know, and what you have to say.

[Jordygirl]

Degrees don't fly planes.

Oh wait, wrong profession, sorry. But it's still true... degrees don't write books either.

[Cathy C]

Julie, if you've got a GED, you're head and shoulders above many other high school graduates. You have to PROVE your knowledge to pass that test. FWIW, I "only" have a high school diploma. But I continued on after graduating to pass several tests (Certified Professional Legal Secretary, Certified Paralegal, Title Officer, and a couple of others) in the legal field through self-study and work experience.

I never attended a single college course, so don't worry a thing about it. Just concentrate on writing a good book, and the publishing doors will open. :)

[scarletpeaches]

You don't need a piece of paper to do something. The piece of paper only PROVES you can.

However, I can honestly say in all my years of writing I've never made use of anything I learned at school. We weren't taught about dialogue attribution, head jumping, POV, nothing like that.

I've learned more since joining AW than I had in 11 years of schooling. I never went to college or uni (as I said before, beyond a few short courses) and I don't plan to go back, certainly not to study English. It's my mother tongue, why would I?

Yes, there are things a writer needs to know but the best way to learn is to associate with other writers, read a lot and...simply write.

You'll make mistakes, but the point is - learn from them.

[job]

I'm not sure, but I think Nora Roberts never did college ...

JoB

[SpookyWriter]

However, I can honestly say in all my years of writing I've never made use of anything I learned at school. We weren't taught about dialogue attribution, head jumping, POV, nothing like that.I'm going to interject a bit here, not to diminish your understanding of education, but the (intended) purpose of a primary education.


To learn, adapt, and effectively communicate with peers and others in a manner that enables you to become a successful member of modern society.


That said, is not the same as the mechanics of writing a story, novel, poem, article, etc.

The education of a successful writer can begin with a formal process like University or an informal one from trial-and-error.

Which is best? That's a crap shoot when it comes to the abilities of each writer who completes a work of "art" and is rewarded with publication.

Caveat: Do not believe as I said, as I do, or what I do because I am not about to elude to any ideology of success from a peon of prose.


Cheers

[pollykahl]

My advice to you:

For a good example of non-florid bare bones writing, read Ernest Hemingway's The Old Man and The Sea.

For technical aspects of writing, read Strunk & White's Elements of Style.

For an excellent example of a work which utilizes the rules of Elements of Style, read Willa Cather's My Antonia. There is not a wasted word in the book.

For everything else, read Stephen King's On Writing.

Then take the money you didn't spend on college and travel outside of your own country. Go deep into rural areas, none of that tourist stuff. You'll have the best cost-effective education available.

[Dancre]

[quote=Redfox;1359817]I think a lot of us writers (and yes, I know that's ungrammatical, but I write posts the way I speak) are self-educated in one way or another. I went to university, but it was to study zoology, and essay-writing was only tiny part of that. Nor do I use my degree a great deal in my writing (though it gave me a head start in creating my "alien" species).



Ditto, but marketing. I've discovered it's learning the writing tech and having a heart for writing that makes a great writer, not a bunch of letters behind or infront of your name.

kim

[scarletpeaches]

I'm going to interject a bit here, not to diminish your understanding of education, but the (intended) purpose of a primary education.



That said, is not the same as the mechanics of writing a story, novel, poem, article, etc.

The education of a successful writer can begin with a formal process like University or an informal one from trial-and-error.

Which is best? That's a crap shoot when it comes to the abilities of each writer who completes a work of "art" and is rewarded with publication.

Caveat: Do not believe as I said, as I do, or what I do because I am not about to elude to any ideology of success from a peon of prose.


Cheers

Oh. So do you need to go to university to learn how to socialise, then?

[SouthernFriedJulie]

I probably should have worded my title better. I really didn't mean to imply that I think that someone who doesn't have a college education is not intelligent. Far from that, because I don't think /I/ am stupid! I'm totally self taught when it comes to writing and I don't think I suck...

I just wanted to really get a feel for some writers who have about the same level of schooling as me. You know, just read their books and see how well they've done, like a motivator tool. It's real easy to get scared and feel as if I'm not going to measure up.

BUT, from what you guys are saying, I shouldn't think like that at all. It's amazing, because I literally thought I was going to be dealing with PH D's and have to fight to hold my own in conversation! [fight, like fight to think of what to say properly]

And, I do read. I read quite a bit, well before I had what seems like 50 kids, I did. I love horror, fantasy, and some sci-fi.

One of these days I think I will take a course on writing at the local community college. I think I'm learning more here, though. Sent a couple of people I know who are aspiring writers this way.

Thanks for your replies!

[scarletpeaches]

Schooling doesn't matter.

Education does.

And that's something you can find for yourself, throughout your entire life. I think if you stop learning, you stagnate. Your brain dies. So use it. As writers we have the perfect opportunity to ask people to tell us what they know. "It's research!" Most people are happy, even flattered, to be asked about their career or experiences or area of expertise.

As for learning how to deal with other people, socialising, interacting, getting to know what makes people tick, you don't need university for that. You learn more in the real world than you do at any school.

[Cindyh2k]

Schooling doesn't matter.

Education does.

I totally agree with this - getting a formal education does not make you a better writer than someone that learns on their own. Learning is something that we do each day - and should make an effort to do. Learn a new word each day, etc.....

The Internet has opened up a whole world of learning opportunities for anyone willing to take advantage of them.

I am not knocking a college education - I hate the fact that I did not get one. And, a formal education can open doors that may not be opened otherwise.

But, a self-educated person proves that they actually WANT the education - not the piece of paper saying they have it - but, the education itself.

Example: Way back when - early 1900's, my Grandmother went to school until the 3rd grade and then life, as it often did in those times, got in the way. Education was not important for girls then - but, my Grandmother had a yearning - she LOVED to learn. So, having been taught to read by the third grade, she utilized this resource and educated herself. I have rarely met a more intelligent person in my life - and she is the reason that I love to learn, love to read, and LOVE to write! She taught me to read when I was 3, and diligently worked with me throughout her life to give me a love of learning that will stay with me forever - and she knew so much - about any subject - and what she didn't know, we learned together.

Sorry, didn't mean to reminisce so much - but, I think you get my point - education is important - whether it be formal or self-induced. A formal education stops at some point - a self-education never stops. The ones who will be the most successful, in my opinion, are the ones who never stop educating themselves - no matter how many degrees they have.

Whether or not you have a formal education, becoming a published author is a long, hard road - full of sweat and tears, joys and sorrows - and what will make you successful and help you reach your goal is the stamina it takes to stay the course and meet your objectives.

Just my humble opinion.

Cindy

[SpookyWriter]

Oh. So do you need to go to university to learn how to socialise, then?
No, but it helps to have a big nose and a fat pocket-book. :tongue

[pollykahl]

"I literally thought I was going to be dealing with PH D's and have to fight to hold my own in conversation! [fight, like fight to think of what to say properly]"

I have had to deal with many PhDs and believe me, many of them are total idiots. (Just my totally unbiased, completely objective opinion of course!) Anyone can digest and regurgitate information. That kind of smarts doesn't mean horse dooey.

[freshpencils]

Actually, "us writers..." is not ungrammatical. "A lot of us..." is grammatical and "A lot of us writers..." is also.

You post like you speak, like you should!

Have I made your day? (Hopefully not! It's only 6:48 am. Having eggs benedict and champagne for breakfast would probably supercede my grammar intervention as the highpoint of your day.)

[freshpencils]

Even better!

Come to think of it, I sure do that. I'm reading a James Patterson (library) book right now and it's all I can do not to take a red pen and edit the heck out of it.

I've also ripped a few pages out of paperbacks, edited them, and sent them to publishers with my resume, as a submission for an editing job.

Never heard anything, so I'm thinking that was maybe a little harsh...unappreciated...frowned upon? Ya think, fresh?!

[Lindo]

There is no relationship between educational level and writing success. Period.

Anyone who postulates a correlation between education and writing QUALITY is merely indicating their own tastes. Great books, and major sellers, have been written by ignorant street scum in prison.

Up to a certain point in time MOST writers were uneducated, except for being able to write. (Before that, of course, there was a time in which education was required to write at all... but much of the literature from that time is derived from oral tradition, folk tales, troubadors, skalds, etc.)

The concept of going to college to study on how to write is extremely recent. I see no indication that the explosion of numbers of kids who study writing in college is producing an equivalent increase in the number of successful writers with background.

In fact, a scan of bestsellers might indicate that a better education for a novelist would be to become a doctor or lawyer. (Becoming a doctor is also a very high indicator of success in mountain climbing, too...it's not necessarily a cause/effect thing.) Or a cop. Or an actor or some other famous person.

It used to be that journalists ended up writing novels, but not so much any more, it seems.

There are pressures in the literary world (who edits those little magazines, etc) that tend to promote people from writing programs. This is another artifact of the way things are organized, like needing to go to college in order to play pro football. It doesn't mean you can go to college and study to be an NFL quarterback.

[LimeyDawg]

I think if you love to write, then write. Do what the folks here have suggested and educate yourself. Then, when you become famous, you can pen your memoires and thumb your nose at people like me who, despite having more degrees than a dog has fleas, still can't write well enough to get published. I say, let life be your university. The best thing about writing might be that there is no entry fee required.

[Danger Jane]

I think if you've got a gift for writing, you won't need a college education to be successful. If you've made your mind up, that's what you're going to do.

That said, I'm planning to major/minor in creative writing in college because I think it will make me a better writer and maybe faster than if I didn't.

[Lindo]

I majored in Creative Writing, actually. So I could goof off, get credit for writing stuff, and collect GI bill.

If I had it to do over again, I think I'd minor in business and major in something like nursing where you can make decent money and still be able to have time to write creative work. Instead of getting into the trap of writing to sell to pay the rent.

[JamieFord]

There's writing, and then there's storytelling. Sort of like the difference between someone who can throw a baseball and someone who can pitch. Less about the form, more about the delivery.

[Danger Jane]

I might major in clinical psychology...which would be hard since I'm not taking math next year. I could double major. That would be a lot more work than I like to do |:

[Prawn]

Here's where having finished college can help you: You know that you can finish something, a project that can take several years. Knowing you can finish college can help you feel you can finish a book. It doesn't mean you will finish one, but I think it helps.

As to what you learn at college, what's that line from GOOD WILL HUNTING?

"You wasted $150000 on an education you coulda got for $1.50 in late fees at the public library."

[Niteowl]

Terry Pratchett only finished high school. Before Rowling came onto the scene, he was the best selling author in the UK.

[RLSMiller]

Shakespeare.

[Medievalist]

Shakespeare.

Err, no, actually, that one won't wash. Shakespeare had a very good education, even for his time. Grammar school meant something very different.

Keep in mind that it's an era where Ben Jonson avoided being hanged for murder by pleading "benefit of clergy"; he proved he could read so he was considered a cleric without orders and thus spared.

[Medievalist]

There is no relationship between educational level and writing success. Period.

Err, for fiction, poetry and drama, absolutely. For non-fiction? Not so much. No publisher is gonna buy a Chaucer critical study from someone without a college degree.

[scarletpeaches]

Is that a challenge?! :D

[Anne Lyle]

If I had it to do over again, I think I'd minor in business and major in something like nursing where you can make decent money and still be able to have time to write creative work. Instead of getting into the trap of writing to sell to pay the rent.

Nursing pays good money over there? Lucky you. Over here, the pay is low, living costs are high, and it's hard, stressful work. Not ideal for writers :(

Me, I write code. Pays well, but typing all day then writing in my spare time is a real pain (sometimes literally). IMHO, the ideal job for a writer is something comparatively mindless that leaves you plenty of time to daydream (aka planning your book). Perhaps a library assistant - shelving and stamping books doesn't take a lot of concentration, plus you get easy access to more books than you could read in a lifetime! Such jobs rarely pay much, however, as I well know...

[Will Lavender]

Is that a challenge?! :D

LOL!

[RLSMiller]

Err, no, actually, that one won't wash. Shakespeare had a very good education, even for his time. Grammar school meant something very different.

Keep in mind that it's an era where Ben Jonson avoided being hanged for murder by pleading "benefit of clergy"; he proved he could read so he was considered a cleric without orders and thus spared.

I'm just being controversial. But I think the fact that Shakespeare, who was snubbed during his time by a lot of academics, has proved to be such a profound influence in literature just goes to show that institutionalized education means squat when it comes to the majority of fiction writing.

[Inkdaub]

As far as I know, James Ellroy never went to college. He was in the Army for a short bit before faking mental illness and receiving a dishonorable discharge. He was a practicing drug addict and alcoholic and all around psucho for a while before sobering up and writing Brown's Requiem...he's been a pillar of the crime genre ever since.

Also, he isn't a writer but Bill Gates dropped out of college and never returned. He has a degree but it's an honorable mention sort of thing granted much later in his life. He seems to be doing alright.

[aes25]

Anyone can digest and regurgitate information. That kind of smarts doesn't mean horse dooey.


If you really think that is what's required for a PhD...heh, well. Tell yourself what you must, but earning a PhD from a reputable university is an extraordinarily difficult and admirable accomplishment.

[aes25]

Also, he isn't a writer but Bill Gates dropped out of college and never returned. He has a degree but it's an honorable mention sort of thing granted much later in his life. He seems to be doing alright.



While this is true, it's informative to note that the college he dropped out of was Harvard.

[BlueBadger]

University/College is a great idea for some and wasted on others. I'm in the latter category. I had no idea what I wanted to do after I left high school, but nowadays there's a psychology that parents have bought into: If your kid's not in school, her life is ruined. So off to college I went, despite having no desire to be there. Big mistake. I lasted about two semesters.

Truth be told, I'm not good at sitting down and being taught. I'm even worse when it comes to stamina, which you need in mass quantities to survive exams, etc. I'm simply not a high-energy person. Some people can work full time and take on a full course load; I cannot. My parents couldn't accept I don't have the same energy level as my brother.

Sometimes I wonder if it'd do me any good to go back to college. In my heart I know the answer is no; I'd piss it away again. XD It's just not for me.

The real challenge is proving your worth without a college education. I've been freelancing for about three years (and I work with animals part-time as well), but before that I was stuck in some miserable jobs because everyone around me had me convinced I couldn't do any better. It's not true, not by a long shot. Employers like to see an education behind you, but they're also getting wise to the fact colleges and universities are getting a little lax about their admissions standards (you gots the money, we gots your college). Experience and common sense are more in demand than anything. It's why so many college students are desperate for volunteer work / internships.

Uh, short version: If you want to write and you don't have a formal education, don't worry. Write! Read! You'll be fine. :D

[NeuroFizz]

I have had to deal with many PhDs and believe me, many of them are total idiots. (Just my totally unbiased, completely objective opinion of course!) Anyone can digest and regurgitate information. That kind of smarts doesn't mean horse dooey.
Anyone who thinks all it takes to get a Ph.D. is to digest and regurgitate information has a little horse dooey problem between his/her ears.

And, yes. People with Ph.D.s are cut from a cross section of society, so some are idiots--just like some of the people without advanced degrees.

[NeuroFizz]

IMHO, the ideal job for a writer is something comparatively mindless that leaves you plenty of time to daydream (aka planning your book).
I'd like to disagree with this, but like you, only as a personal opinion. Writing is an intellectual challenge, and I suggest a day job that provides a significant degree of intellectual stimulation can help maintain an edge of creativity. This is, of course, an individual thing.

[pollykahl]

"Anyone who thinks all it takes to get a Ph.D. is to digest and regurgitate information has a little horse dooey problem between his/her ears."

I said anyone could do that, I didn't say everyone with a PhD has done that.

"People with Ph.D.s are cut from a cross section of society,"

Right. Just like successful writers.

"so some are idiots--just like some of the people without advanced degrees."

Well, I guess you told me!

[NeuroFizz]

That comment wasn't meant as a dig. It was forwarded to indicate that Ph.D.s don't have a monopoly on idiocy. Take the chip off your shoulder. And I said nothing about degrees being needed for success in writing. There is no correlation that I can see in writing fiction, and any advantage will be totally individual, just like the personal characteristics of each person (Ph.D., M.F.A., B.A. high school diploma, or none of the above).

[jonereb]

William Faulkner flunked English on more than one occasion at Ole Miss. He was fired from his job in the University post office. After winning the Pulitzer, he was invited to speak at Ole Miss. He said, "I return to the University of Mississippi the same way I left: by invitation."

[C.bronco]

Ray Bradbury

[NeuroFizz]

Now, to make this a balanced look at the issue raised in the OP, list successful authors who do have educational credentials beyond a high school diploma...

Keep in mind I'm not of the opinion a lack of such credentials is any kind of deterrent to success in fiction writing. It's necessary to look at the full range of data before saying the opposite, though--that this level of academic training has no impact on writing success.

[RLSMiller]

Now, to make this a balanced look at the issue raised in the OP, list successful authors who do have educational credentials beyond a high school diploma...

Keep in mind I'm not of the opinion a lack of such credentials is any kind of deterrent to success in fiction writing. It's necessary to look at the full range of data before saying the opposite, though--that this level of academic training has no impact on writing success.

Even if we did that, we couldn't come to a conclusive decision. Just because many writers do have greater academic credentials than a high school diploma, there is nothing to suggest that these credentials had a factor in their success as writers.

I imagine the majority of writers go to university either out of a general love for learning, or to give themselves some financial security outside of writing, or just because it is pretty much expected that people will go to university these days (at least in the UK). The fact that many university educated writers didn't even study English/Creative Writing is enough evidence to suggest that most writers don't see university as a means to become better at their craft.

And lets be honest, how often is anyone going to need to use the knowledge they gained while studying for PHD in their writing? Certainly not too often, if you're writing for a general audience and certainly not enough to warrant the fees and other stresses that university brings. In certain circumstances, for example if you were writing a complex murder mystery, being a doctor (or an undiscovered homicidal maniac, for that matter) would definitely be a boon. Other than that, I think it's perfectly valid to say that academic training rarely has direct impact on writing success.

The benefits are far more likely to be indirect (e.g. simple things like organizational skills, concentration, interacting with people outside your immediate circle, business contacts, etc...) and not exclusive to a university environment.

[NeuroFizz]

Other than that, I think it's perfectly valid to say that academic training rarely has direct impact on writing success.
I was with you until you made this statement. Do you have special insight that precludes the need for data to support such a statement?

I agree with your final statements on how an advanced education teaches a person more about himself/herself than it does about any specific trade, and that can be obtained without the higher education. But this is a concentrated focus of a college education, where there is no pressure on a person to perform except personal pressure (self-discipline), no one standing over that student forcing him/her to go to class, to study, to do anything except plan for the weekend party. Self-discipline can be obtained in any number of ways, not just a college education. Many people intellectually mature in a college situation (many don't), and many do outside of higher education. But what that advanced education also does is it puts students in an atmosphere of critical inquiry, of a diverse social situation, of personal discovery, that is hard (but not impossible) to duplicate elsewhere in the same time span. Does this make for a better writer? That's an individual thing. Writing comes from life, all aspects of life. So, I can't make a solid stand on this issue without the data, like you have done in your quote above.

[joyce]

Julie thanks for this thread! I was wondering about this very question myself. I graduated from high school and have taken various classes at college (a hundred years ago) but never obtained a degree in anything but life! I have loved writing my whole life, even though I know there are others out there that are better schooled than me in the ole grammar stuff, I still believe I can tell a story. I was happy seeing that I'm not the only one out there that won't be able to put all my college degrees on the back flap of the book (if I ever get published). Just keep on writing. I don't know what will come of it, but my manuscript is presently being looked at by two agents. I have to admit until I read this thread I was worried if someone does like my work, what will I say about my education. Honestly, through reading and just living life, I can come up with enough stories and descriptions to choke a horse. Good luck.

[RLSMiller]

I was with you until you made this statement. Do you have special insight that precludes the need for data to support such a statement?

I agree with your final statements on how an advanced education teaches a person more about himself/herself than it does about any specific trade, and that can be obtained without the higher education. But this is a concentrated focus of a college education, where there is no pressure on a person to perform except personal pressure (self-discipline), no one standing over that student forcing him/her to go to class, to study, to do anything except plan for the weekend party. Self-discipline can be obtained in any number of ways, not just a college education. Many people intellectually mature in a college situation (many don't), and many do outside of higher education. But what that advanced education also does is it puts students in an atmosphere of critical inquiry, of a diverse social situation, of personal discovery, that is hard (but not impossible) to duplicate elsewhere in the same time span. Does this make for a better writer? That's an individual thing. Writing comes from life, all aspects of life. So, I can't make a solid stand on this issue without the data, like you have done in your quote above.

I agree, which is why I tried to differentiate between "direct" and "indirect." It is not the direct practice of studying for a degree, and all the knowledge you obtain during your studying that makes you a more capable writer, nor is it the certificate that you receive at the end of your course. It is the indirect effects of studying for that degree which are beneficial, and may or may not make you a better writer.

And as you said, these benefits can be gained in many different ways. Therefore college in and of itself is not an attributable factor of writing success. It all depends on the person themselves and the environments they excel in.

[NeuroFizz]

And as you said, these benefits can be gained in many different ways. Therefore college in and of itself is not an attributable factor of writing success..
And again, whether anyone agrees with your or not, your logic is flawed. Your "therefore" statement is not appropriate. It is unproven, so no matter how much we agree on the availability of the benefits outside of a college education, you can't turn that around and say that education is not an attributable factor in writing success. You are stating that as fact without any data. As a totally hypothetical example, if ten people attain those "benefits" outside of a college education, and one hundred attain them from a college education in the same time period, your "therefore" statement breaks down, or at least becomes highly suspect. Because something is possible, that does not make it typical, or even likely.

[RLSMiller]

And again, whether anyone agrees with your or not, your logic is flawed. Your "therefore" statement is not appropriate. It is unproven, so no matter how much we agree on the availability of the benefits outside of a college education, you can't turn that around and say that education is not an attributable factor in writing success. You are stating that as fact without any data. As a totally hypothetical example, if ten people attain those "benefits" outside of a college education, and one hundred attain them from a college education in the same time period, your "therefore" statement breaks down, or at least becomes highly suspect. Because something is possible, that does not make it typical, or even likely.

What more data do I need other than the fact that non-college educated writers have proven to be highly successful? If you can be successful without a college degree, then how can you conclude that a college education/experience is a definitive factor in writing success? It may well be on an individual level. But it is by no means a universal requirement, and this is the point I am making.

[Anne Lyle]

I'd like to disagree with this, but like you, only as a personal opinion. Writing is an intellectual challenge, and I suggest a day job that provides a significant degree of intellectual stimulation can help maintain an edge of creativity. This is, of course, an individual thing.

True - but doing a job that leaves you mentally wiped some days isn't good for the creativity either. Truth is, there's no ideal job - and lots of writers (like me) flit from job to job because everything interests them :)

The grass is always greener, and all that...

[NeuroFizz]

What more data do I need other than the fact that non-college educated writers have proven to be highly successful? If you can be successful without a college degree, then how can you conclude that a college education/experience is a definitive factor in writing success? It may well be on an individual level. But it is by no means a universal requirement, and this is the point I am making.
Because there are two different questions. Question number 1. Can a person be successful in writing without a college degree? Yes.

Question number two. Does a college education increase the possibility or probability of success in writing? The answer to question number one does not make the answer to this one a NO. To answer this question, it has to be evaluated independently of question number 1. This is not part of question one and an answer to that question can't be used as evidence one way or the other. This is not an either-or situation.

I have challenged you to provide data that supports your statement, which you present as fact. You have not done so. You have only answered question number 1 and suggest that answer forces an answer to question number two. It doesn't in any way.

[RLSMiller]

Because there are two different questions. Question number 1. Can a person be successful in writing without a college degree? Yes.

Question number two. Does a college education increase the possibility or probability of success in writing? The answer to question number one does not make the answer to this one a NO. To answer this question, it has to be evaluated independently of question number 1. This is not part of question one and an answer to that question can't be used as evidence one way or the other. This is not an either-or situation.

I have challenged you to provide data that supports your statement, which you present as fact. You have not done so. You have only answered question number 1 and suggest that answer forces an answer to question number two. It doesn't in any way.

The question I was answering was:

1. Is the college experience a requirement in becoming a successful writer, and does a lack of it make you a lesser writer?

As for whether it increases the probability or possibility, it depends on the person. I'm not about to go and launch a nationwide research into whether college makes you more likely to be a writer. All I'm saying is that the fact that non-college educated writers have been successful proves that there are other ways to go about it.

[writejoe6]

I'm 64 and beginning. Age and education have little to do with writing. On the other hand, LUCK does! I also had six years of English at a three year high school. Some of it must have stuck! I hope they won't be spreading my ashes over the garden before I realize some success!
But, it's fun to wind a story with characters that the reader cares about. They have to love, feel for, hate, root for, and want the story to take those characters somewhere, to a grand conclusion. God, I love this stuff!
Joe

[NeuroFizz]

The question I was answering was:

1. Is the college experience a requirement in becoming a successful writer, and does a lack of it make you a lesser writer?

As for whether it increases the probability or possibility, it depends on the person. I'm not about to go and launch a nationwide research into whether college makes you more likely to be a writer. All I'm saying is that the fact that non-college educated writers have been successful proves that there are other ways to go about it.
We agree on this. Unfortunately, in the process, you made some comments that went beyond what you have stated above. If you look back on the statements I challenged, they do not resemble what you have cited above. That's all.

So, if RLS and I have found common ground, please proceed with the thread.

[NeuroFizz]

I'm 64 and beginning. Age and education have little to do with writing. On the other hand, LUCK does! I also had six years of English at a three year high school. Some of it must have stuck! I hope they won't be spreading my ashes over the garden before I realize some success!
But, it's fun to wind a story with characters that the reader cares about. They have to love, feel for, hate, root for, and want the story to take those characters somewhere, to a grand conclusion. God, I love this stuff!
Joe
You have the highest degree from the University of Life, Joe. Let's hope we all reach that level of education.

[Matt Lipp]

There are plenty of authors that write like they're uneducated.

See: Tom Clancy

[Lindo]

Clancy is probably better educated for what he's doing than most writers, actually.

[SouthernFriedJulie]

Julie thanks for this thread! I was wondering about this very question myself.


I kind of wish I hadn't now. I was looking for some direction, not to cause tension between people. It seemed a simple and innocent enough question, I wasn't trying to say one thing was better than the other.

I just wanted to know who, where, and what. Thanks for providing me with a few. Sorry if my question caused disagreements.

[RLSMiller]

I kind of wish I hadn't now. I was looking for some direction, not to cause tension between people. It seemed a simple and innocent enough question, I wasn't trying to say one thing was better than the other.

I just wanted to know who, where, and what. Thanks for providing me with a few. Sorry if my question caused disagreements.

Don't be sorry, forums breed discussion and discussion will naturally breed conflict. Besides, life would get boring if everyone agreed all the time. A little drama never hurt anyone. :)

[NeuroFizz]

Even discussion that gets a bit thorny can benefit those who read these threads. If you think this was a heated discussion, don't go near the Take It Outside forum. If you do go there, make sure you are well armed (intellectually and emotionally).

[SouthernFriedJulie]

Don't be sorry, forums breed discussion and discussion will naturally breed conflict. Besides, life would get boring if everyone agreed all the time. A little drama never hurt anyone. :)

Even discussion that gets a bit thorny can benefit those who read these threads. If you think this was a heated discussion, don't go near the Take It Outside forum. If you do go there, make sure you are well armed (intellectually and emotionally).



I know. Just not too happy that it seems like this turned into a light debate. That a better description? :-) I feel all guilty. And a lil dirty. And naughty.

Wait. I don't write erotica.

[below]

I was looking for some direction, not to cause tension between people. It seemed a simple and innocent enough question, I wasn't trying to say one thing was better than the other.

I just wanted to know who, where, and what.

Hi SouthernFriedJulie!

I'm glad you wrote this question too. Weirdly, I periodically reread John Gardner's "On Becoming a Novelist" and had just read the passage where he argues that college is a good thing, even though he also says that you can be a great writer without the education. He argues that you could miss out on exposure to certain kinds of history, authors, styles from other places.

So here's my take on it. You want to talk about expectation that getting a college degree is "necessary" - grin? Try growing up in a college town surrounded by academics. My dad was a college professor. Before, during and after my degree, I worked as a higher ed staffer, including for a science department that looked down on anyone with a "soft" science or humanities degree. Baloney.

I didn't want to go to college, and waited two years, then picked an alternative college, reasoning that it would be an easier fit for my restlessness. (Anyone who is considering the same path for similar reasons, don't do it!) I realized that I wanted a more rigorous school by the end of the first year, but most of my esoteric class credits wouldn't transfer, so I stuck with it, and took half my classes at sister schools.

On the other hand, I made some amazing friendships, met my husband, and utilized every resource to the fullest, from the library to student activities. The wisest thing I ever heard was from a film instructor: College is what you make of it. If you're not getting the education you want, speak up. Ask questions, push for access, talk to people, try new things. That is the very best thing about attending school. It's not learning to write, per se, or getting the academic stamp of approval. It's just about getting all sorts of knowledge and people in one place, and getting access to it.

The best thing? You do not have to commit to a degree program to get that kind of access, and don't let anyone convince you otherwise. Take an academic, on-site course at a solid state or regional university. Don't let anyone treat you like you don't belong, or talk down to you. With apologies to those who were really mature when they hit college at 18 or 19, non-traditional age students (say, over 24) are often the most ardent and able at making the most of the college degree. They get better grades and are great in class discussions.
So, if you're looking for an excuse to go back to school, it's worth it.

Trust me when I say that there are all sorts of people in academia, including those who chose the path out of fear, and not passion. Others became academics to escape. I worked for a foreign-born researcher who had published widely, but really wanted to be a tour guide. Someday, I'm sure he will be!

I would definitely not rate a sheepskin, let alone graduate school, as necessary for writing well. There are some academics who cannot write their way out of a paper bag. Eventually, you have to write outside the classroom, on your own time and under your own pressures.

Depending on the program and the teachers, you might not even want to study English or literature, but something else that you also love. I studied film and history, rather than writing. My favorite literature professor retired in my second year. Meanwhile, the creative writing "darling" of the school was known to bully students in class, ripping them personally (not their stories, them) and making them cry. Judging by the experiences of others (not being a glutton for abuse, I learned elsewhere), he tried to turn writing into a more anxiety-ridden activity than it already is. What a crock.

Sorry so long, but I figure that maybe this might be useful to someone.

[Mr. Fix]

Whew... I'm not alone! And thank God for MS spellchecker, although Mark Twain once stated "I don't give a damn for someone that can only spell a word one way." or somethyng like that.

To make up for the lack of education I use a little tool called "Research." Nothing can deny you the knowledge needed for your story except you. And no one is capable of telling the story the same way as you. Fear not the those whom would tell you that you are not capable of succeding, they are simply jealous of your creativity, something they probably lack - and let us not forget that success is the best revenge. Whenever I am lacking of some specific knowledge, I visit the library and jump that hurdle.

Good Luck SFJ!:D

[Shady Lane]

I'd only had half a year of high school when I wrote my book that got me published, if that counts.

It's about the experience, I guess...the best thing school has done for me has been to teach me how people think and work and interact...algebra, Revolutionary War, hydrogen bonds...not so much.

Although you never know what little details will make your writing more authentic.

[Summonere]

If you write an entertaining story, no one will care about your education.

In fact, if you write an entertaining story, very few will even care if it's badly written. (Witness the drubbing Dan Brown and Robert James Waller have taken regarding the quality of their very popular books.)

[cjmouser]

I, um ... dropped out of high school in '77. I've been a freelance feature article writer and columnist for about five years now, and have my first book coming out this fall. It is not self published or published by a vanity press. I guess people read what they like, and maybe I appeal to a market of relatively uneducated readers?

The hardest thing for me has always been punctuation, but editors tend to take care of most of that. I think you're only limited by what you tell yourself you're limited by.

[KingRat]

From your initial post I'd say you have nothing to worry about. Your writing(meaning sentence structure, etc), in my opinion, doesn't make you appear uneducated.

I currently make my living writing computer programs. My degree is in electronics but I hated that. I've never had a single programming class in my life -- completely self-taught.

Never make the mistake of confusing intelligence with education.

[Atlantis]

You don't need a good education to be a good writer. I was never that great at school. When I made the decision to take writing seriously, I went on the internet and found websites and discussion fourms where I could talk to other writers. I also read articles on everything from proper grammer to how to write dialogue. I also read alot of books in the genres I was intrested in writing in. You can teach yourself to be a good writer. You don't need a good education or have a degree in English. All you need is determination, access to the internet and the address of a good bookstore. In my opinion, a good education has nothing to do with being a good writer! To be a good writer, you need imagination and a desire to tell stories. You can teach yourself spelling, grammer, paragraph construction, plot development, characters, dialogue, all on your own. Its all out there in books and on the internet. Two of the best ways to make yourself a better writer is to join a writers group and to read! read! read! My own writing style has improved in leaps and bounds over the past year because of the books I've been reading.

[JeanneTGC]

If you think you can, you can. If you think you can't, you can't. It is truly as simple as that, for pretty much everything in life, writing included.

[argenianpoet]

I'd say there are no uneducated published writers, but there are a fair number of published writers who have no degree of any kind.

I do think a formal degree, a formal education, is a huge advantage for a writer, and one that gets bigger each year as the world becomes more and more technological. Go down the list of bestselling writers, and you won't find many who lack a formal education. This isn't a coincidence.

But this in no way means you can't educate yourself. If you need a better vocabulary, you can pick it up by reading everything you can get your hands on, including an old-fashioned dictionary. If you want to write better descriptions, then read writers who do this well.

I do, however, think that many who want to be writers concentrate too much on reading novels. Reading novels can help greatly with the writing itself, but it won't give you much to write about, and won't give you the kind of knowledge that should go hand in hand with being a writer.

Read everything, including as much nonfiction as you can find time to read. Be curious. Love to learn. If you have no formal education, then give yourself the best informal education possible.

That's freaking genius man, I mean it! I couldn't have said it better myself. Although things have changed in this day and age...

Agent = Publication