Doing a romance novel from the male protag's perspective

[Tornadoboy]

My WIP is a romance novel with a lot of humor and serious drama in it, I've been writing it primarily from a omniscient 3rd person point of view which only tells of how male protag is thinking (the propper term for this escapes me). I've noticed that all the romance novels I have been reading are done from the female protag's point of view, so I was wondering if what I have been doing is considered a bad idea and if readers tend to reject novels of this genre which do otherwise?

As you can tell I'm a newbie and this is a first try.

[Susan Gable]

For a discussion on romance from the male POV (including how it relates to a man writing romance with a male POV) check out this thead int he Women's Fiction/Romance section of the boards:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63797

Short answer -- especially for a first novel, it might not be such a great idea. Has it been done? Yes, on occasion. It's even been done in first person male POV. (Right, Cathy?)

However, romance relies heavily on the reader identifying with the heroine and falling in love with the hero, hence it USUALLY (usually means not always, means it's not a RULE carved in stone -- just generally a good idea) relies on female POV to help that happen.

Susan G.

[ccarver30]

As a romance writer, I would definitely be interested in reading the male perspective. I say go for it because this might be a new market that has not been utilized. :)

[Devil Ledbetter]

writing it primarily from a omniscient 3rd person point of view which only tells of how male protag is thinkingThat actually sounds like third person limited to me.

I'd say, write your protagonist's story, make it a good one and don't worry so much about genre pigeonholes.

[Tornadoboy]

For a discussion on romance from the male POV (including how it relates to a man writing romance with a male POV) check out this thead int he Women's Fiction/Romance section of the boards:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63797

Thanks, I'll be checking out that discussion, that's probably where I should have posted this thread in the first place.

Short answer -- especially for a first novel, it might not be such a great idea. Has it been done? Yes, on occasion. It's even been done in first person male POV. (Right, Cathy?)

However, romance relies heavily on the reader identifying with the heroine and falling in love with the hero, hence it USUALLY (usually means not always, means it's not a RULE carved in stone -- just generally a good idea) relies on female POV to help that happen.

Susan G.

That's kind of what I was afraid of, you see my female protag is a rather troubled, complex character and a good part of the story is the reader and my male protag finding out what is really going on in her head. She is initially portrayed as someone rather unlikable and appears to my MP and other characters as nothing more than a spoiled, needlessly hostile snob. But what eventually my MP and thus the reader finds out is she only acts the way she does because of various childhood traumas and resulting social anxiety disorders, she desperately wants to change but doesn't know how.
I want her starting off torn down in everyone's eyes and then allow her to build herself back up as someone very sympathetic, I don't know if this is possible if the reader is privy to her thoughts. I don't want to give away her problems too early, in fact she misleads everyone about her true past until almost the climax.

As a romance writer, I would definitely be interested in reading the male perspective. I say go for it because this might be a new market that has not been utilized. :)

Thanks, I'm considering things from that angle too! It would be nice to do something that is not merely going with the flow, but I imagine that's not always the most sucessful tactic to take either, especially for a first book.

That actually sounds like third person limited to me.

I'd say, write your protagonist's story, make it a good one and don't worry so much about genre pigeonholes.

This is where "Tornadoboy is a newbie, and doesn't know what he's talking about" factors in. :D
To sum up how it has been written thus far it is not narated by my MP, but the reader hears of what he is thinking in any given situation, while what my FP thinks is either not stated or is merely speculated on by my MP. Is that what they would mean by 3rd person limited?

[Devil Ledbetter]

This is where "Tornadoboy is a newbie, and doesn't know what he's talking about" factors in. :D
To sum up how it has been written thus far it is not narated by my MP, but the reader hears of what he is thinking in any given situation, while what my FP thinks is either not stated or is merely speculated on by my MP. Is that what they would mean by 3rd person limited?Yes, that is third person limited. If your MP was narrating, that would be first person (I, me, rather than he, him.)

Omnicient also uses he, him but typically give a broader (and more distant) point of view encompassing more characters.

[Gary]

I've noticed that all the romance novels I have been reading are done from the female protag's point of view, so I was wondering if what I have been doing is considered a bad idea and if readers tend to reject novels of this genre which do otherwise?


I've wondered the same thing, and from my beta reader's comments, I'm convinced it's not the best idea. The females don't like the guy things that occur, and I guess the male readers think it's too sappy. Unfortunately, the story is what it is, and I'm not changing it merely to fit a formula. That means I probably won't make an attempt to market it.

[Huxley Bard]

This really surprises me! I hadn't thought about it before, but I guess most romantic stories are from the female's perspective. Personally, I'm a male who likes romantic stories and would love to read one from a male perspective. Are people like me that uncommon?

By the way, your book sounds very interesting Tornadoboy, good luck with it!

[Chris Grey]

Wasn't there a Seinfeld episode about this?

Not going to chime in on the male/female thing as others know more than me, but there's nothing saying you can't have a troubled narrator. The thing is, you're telling the story from the narrator's point of view, and, with few exceptions, crazy people don't know they're crazy.

Your main female character might be troubled and complex, but, from her point of view, she probably doesn't see herself as troubled. It's like, Harry Potter has a short temper, but he doesn't see that he's a bit irrational at times.

Anything's possible.

[badducky]

Also, I assume that Gay Romance Stories would be just fine.

[sunandshadow]

*is confused* I read a ton of romance novels and many of them are written alternately from the perspective of the hero and heroine. It's a little odd to leave the heroine's pov out entirely, but not at all strange to use the hero's.

[blacbird]

I've been writing it primarily from a omniscient 3rd person point of view which only tells of how male protag is thinking

Then it's not omniscient, it's limited 3rd. Don't worry about the terminology, as long as you are consistent and controlled and aware of what you're doing in your use of POV. Just remember, if you are limiting your perspective to the POV of your male protagonist, you cannot, absolutely cannot, dip into the heads or viewpoints of other characters. You cannot, for example, directly relate scenes that happen outside the presence of your protag.

caw

[maestrowork]

Probably not the best thing for a romance (unless it's gay) -- not that it can't be done, but there's a lot against it (consider your target audience).

However, for love stories, male protags are great, especially the "tortured" type. Women love to have a "bad boy" protag they can feed soup to while smacking him. Men can identify with such a protag ("you're a jerk, but I used to be like you").

[Tornadoboy]

That's for all the imput and encouragement!

Probably not the best thing for a romance (unless it's gay) -- not that it can't be done, but there's a lot against it (consider your target audience).

However, for love stories, male protags are great, especially the "tortured" type. Women love to have a "bad boy" protag they can feed soup to while smacking him. Men can identify with such a protag ("you're a jerk, but I used to be like you").

What is the difference between a romance story and a love story? I've heard people refer to them as being different but I haven't heard why, and
I'm starting to wonder if perhaps I've miscatagorized what I've been working on all along.

There is definately a strong 'love' element that is central to the whole story, lots of sexual tension and even an outright carnal escapade or two between the protags. But there are a lot of other and equally important things that go on, such as taking responsibility for oneself, confronting one's own fears and exploring how traumatic events in childhood can psychologically cripple someone into adulthood.

My MP is definately the tortured soul-type, although it is a lot more subtle in his case as opposed to my FP, it's obvious from the moment you meet her that she's got some kind of issue going on. In fact that's a contrast I've made between them I really like, my MP seems like nothing scares him about people while for her everything does. But as things progress we find out that he's none too perfect either.

[Susan Gable]

*is confused* I read a ton of romance novels and many of them are written alternately from the perspective of the hero and heroine. It's a little odd to leave the heroine's pov out entirely, but not at all strange to use the hero's.

Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to say. Guess I presumed too much. :)

Original poster was talking about doing a completely male POV story.

Most romances contain both. I even once read a terrific romance that was done in first person POV - alternating chapters for hero and heroine. Extrememly well done! You knew IMMEDIATELY which head you were in because each character had such a different voice. This is why I never say "never" or "always" or "rule set in stone." :)

Also, I think it's perfectly find to show this messed-up heroine's thoughts. Just because you're in her head, you don't have spill the beans about her childhood right away -- she's not going to be thinking about that 24/7, right? Put her in situations where she's got other stuff going on in her head until it's time to spill the beans.

Do some reading homework. That will help you a lot to get a grip on what you're trying to do. :)

Susan G.

[ChaosTitan]

What is the difference between a romance story and a love story? I've heard people refer to them as being different but I haven't heard why, and
I'm starting to wonder if perhaps I've miscatagorized what I've been working on all along.

Romance has what's called an HEA (Happily Ever After) ending. The hero and heroine both live, and they look forward to a future together.

Love stories have a strong love element, but without the HEA. One or both of the characters can (but doesn't have to) die. The ending can be bittersweet, rather than hopeful. Think "The Notebook," for one of the better modern examples.

[JanDarby]

Also, keep in mind that males in romances aren't really "real." They're the fantasy version, from a woman's perspective, of what a male love-interest is. Even when a scene is in the man's POV, he's experiencing emotions, understanding them and expressing them in ways that very few real men would do. (That's true of the heroines in many cases, too; they're fantasy versions of real women.)

So. If you're going to write a romance (rather than a love story, which is less specifically geared to a specific set of predominantly female readers' expectations) from a male POV, it needs to be a male POV that speaks to the female reader's expectations. Romance, as it's defined by publishing today, is, at its most fundamental level, the playing out of a female fantasy or ideal, the development of a lasting relationship. Romances push the reader's emotional buttons on this topic, and to write them, you need to understand those buttons and be able to manipulate them. Which means excluding situations that don't matter to women (the "guy things" that happen) and focusing on the situations, thoughts, emotions, actions and conversations that DO matter to women.

JD

[badducky]

For examples of "Love Stories" versus "Romance Stories", another fantastic example is Raymond K. Wong's book "The Pacific Between".

I'm just sayin'...

[job]

'Romance' is a commercial term, not a literary term.
Like 'Mystery' or 'Science Fiction' or 'Young Adult', the word 'Romance' just tells the store owner where the book will be shelved.

'A love story' is what a book is about.
It's a literary term.

Romances are one subset of love stories.
Other 'love stories' will be shelved as Science Fiction or Historical Novel or Western or YA or Humor or Autobiography.


It is possible you are writing a 'love story' but not a 'Romance'.

If you have not done so, you should probably read fifty or sixty Romances. This will help you determine whether or not you are writing one.

[Lindo]

This thread really blew my mind. Almost as much as hearing the term "Family Romance" last week.

So, what are the chances of writing some pornography from the point of view of the female pleasure object?

[sunandshadow]

This thread really blew my mind. Almost as much as hearing the term "Family Romance" last week.

So, what are the chances of writing some pornography from the point of view of the female pleasure object?
'pleasure object'? You mean a D/s sort of thing where the woman is the submissive? For a male audience, I assume? Yes of course there's erotica like that - well, there's erotica like almost anything you can think of lol. You should go over to AW's erotica forum and explain in more detail what you want to know. (P.S it's considered insulting to call it pornography unless you intend it to be trashy, erotica is what you call it if it isn't really romantic, or if it is romantic you can specify that it's romantic erotica, romantica, or steamy romance. And then there are more specific names for different subgenres e.g. bodice-ripper.)

[Tornadoboy]

even an outright carnage escapade or two between the protags.

CARNAGE?? That was one of my more interesting typos!

I of course meant CARNAL and have since corrected it, the prior brings to mind my FP and MP drawing swords and attacking each other!

I can practically see my FP sporting a wry smile to my Freudian slip and saying "Yeah, like I haven't been tempted on occasion!"

I do plan a happy ending, perhaps not 'happily ever after' but it is clear to the reader that they have turned a crucial corner in their lives and pretty much all the barriers between them have fallen, I don't have the heart to do otherwise and it kind of goes with the underlying theme of the story.

I wonder if "Marnie" by Winston Graham might be a good one for me to read? I have it somewhere and have been meaning to read it, I thought I heard that it is done in a first person POV from Marnie's perspective and if she is anything like she is portrayed in the movie she is even more troubled than my FP.

[Lindo]

I called it pornography because I was talking about pornography. There is not a whole lot of porn out there for females because they tend not to like it. Kind of like men don't read a lot of romance.

Submissive has nothing to do with it. If you have a better word for the woman in a porn reel or story, fine.

The post was monkeying around with the idea of romance from man's viewpoint. (For some reason, that seems to be understood without having to say "you mean the male dominant figure" or whatever.)
Therefore I humorously suggested a contrapositive...porn from a woman's viewpoint. A small joke.

Perhaps opens with a young woman dreamily wishing she would be ravaged on a dirty pool table by a gang of grubby bikers. There's got to be something here as workable as men wanting to be Fabio characters.

[veinglory]

Submissive has nothing to do with it. If you have a better word for the woman in a porn reel or story, fine.

You need to broaden [lol] your horizons, seriously. Women are never objects unless they are made of rubber (although *some* may like to play the part occassionally) and they run the full range from dominant to submissive and a lot of territory on either side and outside the box entirely. If you simply can't connect concave sex organs with power try googling 'pegging'.

p.s. plenty of women read and write (and film) porn, with and without romance elements. If you watch only mainstream porn you won't find much evididence of this but look online for stuff with more diverse directors (i.e. gay, kink, subculture and feminist focussed distributors). Most straight-male focussed porn vendors are the sex equivalent of Walmart IMHO.

The world is diverse and so is sex fiction. Power, gender and sexualty are fluid categories. Right this moment I am reading a lesbian erotic collection by Laurinda Brown which is a good case in point. Even Borders has plenty on offer to break down those stereotypes and the stuff online gets too mind blowing even for me sometimes.

[sunandshadow]

Ditto ditto ditto. There is plenty of female erotica out there, you just have to know where to look. The whole Yaoi genre for example - this is gay male sex (with or without romance) created mainly by women for women and available as a few movies, several graphic novels (graphic meaning manga/comic book), and tons and tons of fanfiction. Women also write and read thousands of steamy romance novels a year, and those are definitely erotica despite being sold in mainstream stores without plastic wrap around them or any of that nonsense. If you look at online story archives there are lots of stories written by female authors and/or from female points of view - there's no joke about it. (Well, actually I'm chuckling to imagine how your eyes will pop when you see some of this stuff really exists, lol)

[Anne Lyle]

So, what are the chances of writing some pornography from the point of view of the female pleasure object?

I'm not sure what you mean.

Are you asking what the chances are of someone writing porn from a female PoV? If so, 100%. It's been done.

Are you asking what the chances are of someone writing this stuff and getting it published? Probably pretty minimal. There have been a few attempts at launching "skin mags" for women and they've largely failed, because women aren't as visually oriented as men. I suppose a lesbian scene would appeal to a men's mag*, but I can't see straight porn from a female PoV having much of a market**.

Erotica, now, that's a whole different ballgame (no pun intended!). The difference between porn and erotica isn't in the scenario - grubby bikers vs Fabio - but in the writing style - anatomy vs emotion. Women mostly just aren't interested in a blunt account of who put what where ;)



* I'm reminded of the "Smack the Pony" video dating sketch, with the two lesbians being very apologetic and pessimistic about their search for a man who'd like to watch them in action :ROFL:

** Unless it's non-fiction - e.g. "My Secret Garden" and "Forbidden Flowers" by Nancy Friday, about real women's sexual fantasies...

[veinglory]

Personally I think there is no substantial difference between pornography and erotica except that markets catering to readers who don;t want to catch 'porn-cooties' call it erotica ;)

I've read literary erotica that was not, in tone style or subject, much different from porn being put out by other publishers.

[Anne Lyle]

I've not read much of either - I'm just going on my general impression that "pornography" is often reserved for narratives that are basically just text versions of cheesy porn movies ("Oh, goodness, are you here to fix my sink? What a big tool-box you have!"), whereas erotica aims for a little more literary style and/or a story framework around the sex.

YMMV...

[veinglory]

Thats what 'erotic writers' call bad sex writing. Pornography writers of course don't run around trying to be cheesy. I tend to refer to 'sex writing' amd leave it at that. It tends to avoid the 'man porn bad; girl porn good' stuff ;)

[Lindo]

How come I keep saying porno and other people keep saying erotic...and that I'm wrong about it? Weird.

THe femNazi thing is easier to understand. But I will try to help out a little here. The word "object" can have a lot of different meanings. Objects of desire. The object lesson. The object of a work of art or effort.

That whole "redefine words then attack people for using them" stuff was a pain in the seventies and by now is pretty hackneyed and quaint.

If you don't get the humor, fine. If you get it and think it's lame, fine. But don't try to blow it into a world view, okay? Can you not create a cartoon of what I am then mess with it? Thanks.

[blacbird]

"CHAPTER ONE

She was real purty and had big . . ."

caw

[Trench Kamen]

Screw the standard.

If you have a good romance story to tell from a man's perspective, write it.

That is all there is to it. If you have a story you want to tell, tell it, and tell it well.

[Tornadoboy]

Screw the standard.

If you have a good romance story to tell from a man's perspective, write it.

That is all there is to it. If you have a story you want to tell, tell it, and tell it well.

I guess that's what it all comes down to, JUST WRITE THE DAMN THING!
This is going to be a first novel by a newbie so who is to say it is ever going to see the light of day, so why worry about it?
I should probably take stock in what Stephen King says: (paraphrasing) "Write the first draft with the door closed, telling only yourself the story. Then re-write with the door open, telling it in such a way that everyone else will enjoy it"

Besides, there's a lot about my FP that I need to learn before I could get inside her head enough to tell the story from her POV, so maybe writing things from my MP's side will help me gain more insights and make things that much more interesting if/when I switch angles.

[maestrowork]

Well... if you want to write to a specific market, you do have to think about your target audience and what are the conventions for that market. If you are targeting a "romance" audience, you'd better be sure what they're expecting.

[veinglory]

Lindo has been directed not to post in this subforum any more. So anyone inclined to respond to his latest effort should probably refrain.

[edited to add] dueto the content of the post I got the forum we were in wrong here. So ignore this post.

[Anne Lyle]

Thats what 'erotic writers' call bad sex writing. Pornography writers of course don't run around trying to be cheesy. I tend to refer to 'sex writing' amd leave it at that. It tends to avoid the 'man porn bad; girl porn good' stuff ;)

Fair enough. It's not a genre I'm interested in writing, so the finer points of terminology pass me by. Now, if you want to talk sub-genres of SF&F, I'm on firmer ground :)

[veinglory]

The terms are all in the air anyway ;) -- I see them used in all sorts of different ways...

[Lindo]

Actually, vainglory. This is not the erotica subforum. It's not about you. I appreciate your attention, if not your over-reaction and impulse to exclude without discussion on the matter.

Don't worry. From what I've seen of the "erotic" fans, I'm more comfortable with porn mongers.

[aka eraser]

Lindo, you're behaving like a jerk. Jerks don't last long around here.

[Cathy C]

My WIP is a romance novel with a lot of humor and serious drama in it, I've been writing it primarily from a omniscient 3rd person point of view which only tells of how male protag is thinking (the propper term for this escapes me). I've noticed that all the romance novels I have been reading are done from the female protag's point of view, so I was wondering if what I have been doing is considered a bad idea and if readers tend to reject novels of this genre which do otherwise?

As you can tell I'm a newbie and this is a first try.

Nope. It's not a bad idea. Our first book was first person male POV in a romance novel. Our heroine was likewise initially disliked by the reader and by the hero because she's a "train wreck" emotionally. One reviewer wanted to "throw her face first into a wood chipper." :ROFL: However, the reader discovers through the eyes of the hero that she has worth and WANTS to be salvaged. But it's not so easy in the real world.

I'd also note that the book is our best selling novel, with over 100K in print over two years, and just sold through the five figure advance. :)

So yes, it can be done. But like the others have said--do it well.

[Lindo]

Oh, my impression is that jerks last just fine around here.

[Medievalist]

Oh, my impression is that jerks last just fine around here.

Err, well, no, they don't.

They really don't.

[Medievalist]

I called it pornography because I was talking about pornography. There is not a whole lot of porn out there for females because they tend not to like it. Kind of like men don't read a lot of romance.

You're quite quite wrong on both accounts.

There's porn for both heterosexual and lesbian women, video and textual.

There's also a fair amount of written erotica that verges on porn, written specifically for women, of pretty much every sexual orientation and persuasion.

And if you spend much time working at either a public library or a chain book store, you'll find that not only do men write romances, a fair number read them, though yes, most romance readers are women.

[aspiringwriter]

When or if I go back to novel writing I am planning on writing a romance from the Male POV...thought it might be interesting.

[veinglory]

I once read a great research article on secondary markets (those that read a book after someon else buys it, often encouraging and/or funding the purchase). As I recall the biggest gender flips were romance and westerns with large secondary markets of the opposite gender to the first purchaser.

If anyone knows who wrote that article (mid-80s) have mercy and remind me.

[sunandshadow]

By an odd coincidence, the romance novel I started reading today seems to be written exclusively from the male pov. It's _Hunter's Moon_ by C.J. Addams and Cathy Clamp.

[Cathy C]

LOL! My only correction would be that it's C.T. Adams. Yeah, it looks like a J. We fixed the font on the second edition. :) Hope you like it, sunandshadow!

[sunandshadow]

lol cool :D

[WordGypsy]

I'm writing one now. It's been a lot harder than I thought...slow going. I started out in 2nd person(? you watched while I walked to the candle) and then went to first (I walked to the candle while she watched) and had about 6 different versions of the POV before I found his voice. Being a girl, I still find some things that come out strange or not fitting. I wanted to have him poison the girl at the end, but apparently poisoning a person in a crime of passion type scene is what women tend to do. Guys go for the gunshot to the face. It's hard, but it'll be worth it at the end. It really can't be written any other way and that's what you've got to ask yourself. Can it be written better any other way? No? Then stick with it...

[Tornadoboy]

It really can't be written any other way and that's what you've got to ask yourself. Can it be written better any other way? No? Then stick with it...

I tend to say that it has to be written from someone other than my FP's POV, I want her to be a walking contradiction and what she is thinking when behaving in certain ways needs to be a mystery, so I guess I'll have to take my chances.

For example at one point they wind up on a business trip together and get in some trouble, the reader is initially led to believe that the idea of my MP being selected was the father's idea, after observing that he was the only one whom attempts to be nice to her and seems able to tolerate her attitude.

What you find out later on is that it was HER idea that he make the trip, that she had been secretly nursing a crush on him but simply didn't know how to act upon it, and when she gets scared and frustrated she gets hostile and introverted, thus her miserable cycle continues. Aside from what has brought her to all this that is her big secret, she's stuck in a terrible loop of dysfunctional behavior begetting more dysfunctional behavior, not unlike a depressed alcoholic who's drinking depresses them, and makes them want to drink more.

There's a LOT of things in her head that I would have to tap dance around in order not to let the cat out of the bag too early and ruin the story, so I guess I'll have to stick with my original plan and hope for the best... or at least to gain the wisdom and experience for a re-write later. :)

[WordGypsy]

I'm really interested to see how it works out for you! Make sure you post it when you get to that point!

[Tornadoboy]

I'm really interested to see how it works out for you! Make sure you post it when you get to that point!

Thank you! <Gracious bow>

When I've got a chapter done to a point where I think it is not too embarrassing I'll try to post some of it in SYW.

[writejoe6]

I say, being a rookie, go ahead with the third person format. Who cares what anybody e;se thinks. Third person does get inside of that character's thinking. Will we care about him, will we hate him, can he affect the story in a literate way.
I suggest you write from the male perspective, with the female in mind. That first page MUST 'get to them'! Males are, naturally, humorous (Take, how we look naked!). Hey, that's a thought! Write as if your standing, on a stage, naked to the whole world!
Joe