Outline or no outline?

[Chain of Memories]

Heh.:tongue I was just wondering how many writers out there prefer outlines, or winging it, in writing a novel. For me, I usually decide to wing it! ;)

-Jay

P.S. Just being curious! :hi:

[scarletpeaches]

*creeps past this thread and decides to wait for the fallout to pass*

[Chain of Memories]

*creeps past this thread and decides to wait for the fallout to pass*

Hey! :rant: What's that suppose to mean! Just Kidding! ;)

[scarletpeaches]

Just that this is a common topic on AW and it all usually kicks off by page two. ;)

[Rolling Thunder]

I usually outline but have seriously considered Bungeeing.

[Will Lavender]

I write without an outline.

One of the joys of novel writing, for me, is that sort of continuous invention that the writer has to rely on if he is going it without an outline.

I was in Barnes and Noble the other day and stumbled across a book of interviews with famous mystery writers. Most of the major players were there: Grafton, the Kellermans, Block, Rule, Westlake, Connelly, Scottline.

One of the questions that the interviewer posed was, "Do you write with an outline?"

I read 80% of the 12 or 14 interviews in the book, and NONE of these writers admitted to writing with an outline. Not one.

FWIW.

[Rolling Thunder]

Which, of course, doesn't mean winging it works for everyone. As Scarlet said, this subject has been discussed before and there are different ways to approach writing. So, as Will said, for what it's worth, choose what works best for you.

[Chain of Memories]

Just that this is a common topic on AW and it all usually kicks off by page two. ;)

I understand, but hopefully this thread will last longer! :D

[Chain of Memories]

I write without an outline.

One of the joys of novel writing, for me, is that sort of continuous invention that the writer has to rely on if he is going it without an outline.

I was in Barnes and Noble the other day and stumbled across a book of interviews with famous mystery writers. Most of the major players were there: Grafton, the Kellermans, Block, Rule, Westlake, Connelly, Scottline.

One of the questions that the interviewer posed was, "Do you write with an outline?"

I read 80% of the 12 or 14 interviews in the book, and NONE of these writers admitted to writing with an outline. Not one.

FWIW.


That is interesting info. That's why I enjoy winging it more often. It makes the book more exciting to write! :)

-Jay

[Chain of Memories]

Which, of course, doesn't mean winging it works for everyone. As Scarlet said, this subject has been discussed before and there are different ways to approach writing. So, as Will said, for what it's worth, choose what works best for you.

I know what you mean. I prefer winging it, but outlining is a more safer and easier approach.

-Jay

[The Lady]

continuous invention



Mmm, and off course outliners have no need to invent anything at all. They just buy their outline in the outline shop.







See, I'm running now.:gone: And I'm not even a committed outliner.

[scarletpeaches]

I understand, but hopefully this thread will last longer! :D

Uh...that was my point. The fighting kicks off by page two, goes on to about ten, a mod steps in, things get ugly...

[The Lady]

outlining is a more safer and easier approach.

-Jay


May God have mercy on your soul.

[The Lady]

And now, really. :gone: And no, I'm not ashamed to be afraid.

[Chain of Memories]

Uh...that was my point. The fighting kicks off by page two, goes on to about ten, a mod steps in, things get ugly...


Now that's not pretty! Sorry about my ignorance...kind of new here...

[Rolling Thunder]

Now that's not pretty! Sorry about my ignorance...kind of new here...

We take all the entertainment we can get. :)

[Chain of Memories]

We take all the entertainment we can get. :)

:partyguy: Writing is entertaining!

-Jay

[scarletpeaches]

Chain, I dare you to poke Rllgthunder with a big stick. :D

[Chain of Memories]

Chain, I dare you to poke Rllgthunder with a big stick. :D

Now where would I find one of those?! Hee...Is Rllgthunder bothering you?

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

Not an "outline" that plots out every move, but just a sequence of events.

I'm like totally not published, so maybe I'm not the best person to give this advice.

[scarletpeaches]

Now where would I find one of those?! Hee...Is Rllgthunder bothering you?

He bothers everyone. He's the AW poking-with-a-big-stick-boy. :D

[Chain of Memories]

Not an "outline" that plots out every move, but just a sequence of events.

I'm like totally not published, so maybe I'm not the best person to give this advice.


No! I appreciate your opinion. I should try your method sometime!

[akiwiguy]

Generally no outline. And just to drag up another bone of contention, I tend to start with fairly well-defined characters in my mind and they drive the plot rather than the other way around.

But... my WIP which is only just underway I have given a lot more thought than usual; I perhaps have more of a complete outline than is typically the case. Something about the nature of the story just gave me the uneasy feeling that if I didn't figure certain stuff earlier rather than later I could at some point end up with some major rewriting to do.

On another post I noticed something that I found interesting... it was a quote by Stephen King that basically said that in his opinion you can start writing your story without any clear plot, but you do need to have a pretty clear idea of the conflict. Food for thought.

[Chain of Memories]

Generally no outline. And just to drag up another bone of contention, I tend to start with fairly well-defined characters in my mind and they drive the plot rather than the other way around.

But... my WIP which is only just underway I have given a lot more thought than usual; I perhaps have more of a complete outline than is typically the case. Something about the nature of the story just gave me the uneasy feeling that if I didn't figure certain stuff earlier rather than later I could at some point end up with some major rewriting to do.

On another post I noticed something that I found interesting... it was a quote by Stephen King that basically said that in his opinion you can start writing your story without any clear plot, but you do need to have a pretty clear idea of the conflict. Food for thought.

Thanks! I do find that without a clear outline you can encounter problems later on, but nothing like the thrill of just writing! Every good novel has to have a conflict. It's like feeding the reader food for thought!:D

-Jay

[Rolling Thunder]

Scarlet's just upset cause she hasn't been poked for awhile. :D

[CheshireCat]

I don't outline.

I also wonder if we should have a sticky somewhere so we can all weigh in on the subject just once.

That would be nice.

:hooray:

[Tasmin21]

My first project has no outline, and I'm wondering if maybe that's not part of the problem I'm having now with it.

I'm trying the outline bit with my new WIP. I'll let you know how it goes.

[Chain of Memories]

My first project has no outline, and I'm wondering if maybe that's not part of the problem I'm having now with it.

I'm trying the outline bit with my new WIP. I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks! I'll be glad to know how outlining works for you!:D

[Danger Jane]

I don't really use outlines to plot my story. The only time I dabble in them is if I'm having a really horrible week with school (even though I don't do my work anyway) and I don't have much time to write, so then I placate myself with outlines during class. Or try to placate myself; I get pretty distracted.

[Chain of Memories]

I use outlines to organize my ideas, but I process better in my mind!

[Stijn Hommes]

Outline. Even if it's only for the ending or a few major scenes, so I can get my bearings. It works encouraging if you know where you're going. You can always stray from the plan if you get a good idea.

[valeenc]

I am more comfortable writing short fic, so I like to have an outline for novels so I don't lose track of where I'm going. They're pretty loose outlines, but they give me something to aim for so I don't end up going around my elbow to get to my thumb.

[Chain of Memories]

So some like outlines and some don't. Then there's people who alternate between the two methods, and then some who aren't sure about the topic. That's a mixed variety of results.:) But I'll keep up this poll for a while to see the ending results.;)

-Jay

[Ms.Write]

I do outline but it is constantly evolving. It's just a way of keeping my thoughts organized and not wasting time trying to find specific chapters in my WIP. The ideas that go into the outline are not at all contrived - they just come, and once I judge where they fit in, they go in the outline.

When I start a novel, I generally have about 20 chapters outlined (2 or 3 sentences per chapter). This doubles as I get halfway through my first draft. I also write whose viewpoint each chapter is in for easy reference.

Works for me!

[MelodyO]

If I don't outline, my characters stagger around like drunken frat boys until they finally trip over their own feet and sustain a concussion. Trust me.

[sf.writer.mdk]

My first project has no outline, and I'm wondering if maybe that's not part of the problem I'm having now with it.

I'm trying the outline bit with my new WIP. I'll let you know how it goes.

LOL
I was just thinking that, except for me it's the reverse (at least in theory). I think about plotting, but I'm such a procrastinater, that's even a chore.

[CaroGirl]

I wing it so much I'm growing feathers, big yellow ones like Big Bird. I have one or two characters, a situation, a beginning and an end. Ready. Set. Go!

[Chain of Memories]

I wing it so much I'm growing feathers, big yellow ones like Big Bird. I have one or two characters, a situation, a beginning and an end. Ready. Set. Go!


Lol. You must like winging it!

[Turtle07]

I wing it. Usually, I can't plan stories or they get dull.

[Chain of Memories]

Yes! The "winging it" option is winning! No hard feelings!

Jay

[Lyra Jean]

I believe I can fly.

I've tried outlining and it felt like I wrote the story and I never bothered actually writing.

[DeborahM]

I wing it because to me there's no use to outline when the characters take a life of their own where the outline stunts their growth and will constantly change. I do keep notes to check off as I've covered them later in the WIP and don't have any loose threads left hanging.

[ChaosTitan]

I don't outline.

I also wonder if we should have a sticky somewhere so we can all weigh in on the subject just once.

That would be nice.

:hooray:


This forum has an FAQ sticky. Under it are half a dozen threads on this topic. You can find a dozen more by searching. *sigh*


To answer the OP's question, for me it depends. I have outlined. I have not outlined. Right now, I use a method that works for me that is, technically, neither. And both. Whatever it is, it's helped me write two novels since January.

[Chain of Memories]

I believe I can fly.

I've tried outlining and it felt like I wrote the story and I never bothered actually writing.

I know what you mean. Sometimes it can be tedious and redundant.

[Anne Lyle]

Outline.

I used to think that outlining spoilt the enjoyment of discovering the story as I went along, but having failed to get more than a few chapters into any of my novel drafts I decided I just needed more self-discipline! Plus, there was no way I was going to get through NaNoWriMo if I had to worry about what to write next. Now I'm totally converted to outlining.

Of course that doesn't mean I don't still make things up as I go along. My outline is usually just one sentence per scene, nothing more detailed than that. And in my whodunnit plotline, the murderer turned out to be someone other than the person I'd intended. But that's what the second draft is for - weaving the original outline and the spontaneous bits back into a coherent narrative...

[Rolling Thunder]

That's the thing about outlining. I get the impression that those who 'wing it' feel outlining clips their feathers too much. But, it really depends on how deep you try to outline a story. One or two sentence guidelines work well enough in many cases. Sometimes you do need to take a few chapters and create a deeper plan, especially if you have plenty of subplots to keep untangled, but you are always free to expand on an idea. It's like stringing short stories together and following a single theme.

I tried 'winging it' on my latest WIP and couldn't keep going until I outlined the story I wanted to tell after the first chapter. I don't cage up my characters either. At certain points they evolve enough to dent the expectations I've laid out and I'll let them run with it through a few chapters. Then, if what they do is better than what I planned, I check what the following story outline needs, be it minor revision or complete rewrite. If it works I tweak the story and end up at a different place, much like winging it accomplishes. If the characters simply ran amok I go back to the original outline and try again.

[Inky]

That's the thing about outlining. I get the impression that those who 'wing it' feel outlining clips their feathers too much. But, it really depends on how deep you try to outline a story. One or two sentence guidelines work well enough in many cases. Sometimes you do need to take a few chapters and create a deeper plan, especially if you have plenty of subplots to keep untangled, but you are always free to expand on an idea. It's like stringing short stories together and following a single theme.

I tried 'winging it' on my latest WIP and couldn't keep going until I outlined the story I wanted to tell after the first chapter. I don't cage up my characters either. At certain points they evolve enough to dent the expectations I've laid out and I'll let them run with it through a few chapters. Then, if what they do is better than what I planned, I check what the following story outline needs, be it minor revision or complete rewrite. If it works I tweak the story and end up at a different place, much like winging it accomplishes. If the characters simply ran amok I go back to the original outline and try again.

I was going to post here...then read Thunder's...and I'll just piggyback on what he's said...'cause it was taken from my mind--I've told you about stealing my thoughts, Thunder..hehehe. The untangled part, yep yep, most assuredly agree with that. Current WIP has forced me to stop, grab pen & paper, map out subplots to keep 'em straight and the timetable correct.

k

[scarletpeaches]

My writing improved as soon as I stopped outlining. Whether the two are connected, I don't know but here's my theory on it.

My first two novels were...bad. The first is a trunk novel with a very very tiny chance of resurrection. The second stands a greater chance and would be classed as chicklit or women's fiction.

So. I didn't outline the first in the classic sense but wrote about a hundred pages and then the "Ooh!" moment happened. You know when everything clicks in place, you're enlightened, you know you're Shakespeare reborn. So I thought, "I better write all this down before I forget."

Anyway, it ended up crap.

So I outlined the second novel as there were a few dates to remember, timing was important...and it was better. Bad, but not awful. The outlining made it read like a listed series of events. "Character A did this," then in the next chapter, "Character B did that." Events, events, events, no character development and a stonking great DEA which I'll have to untangle if I ever want to try to get it published.

So with the third I decided to wing it, and it was much improved. Probably more to do with serving my apprenticeship by writing Bad Book #1 and Bad Book #2 rather than the lack of outlining. But the characters were more real, and this in turn made the events more credible. As you get to know the characters you understand why they do what they do. It was at this time I became a "Concentrate on characters rather than plot," devotee. Goddamn, this novel worked and I was so excited!

But remember my feeling of, "I better write this down before I forget," during the writing of book one? Well I had that with Book #3, but the difference was I learned to trust myself not to forget where I wanted to take the story. Rather than outlining from my 'moment of clarity' to the end of the book I said to myself, "Meh. I'll write it as I remember it...because I will remember." And even if I hadn't, I had enough faith in myself to know I'd think of some way to get to 'the end'.

So now I don't outline a bit. The only things I write are "Chapter One," the bits in the middle, and then "The End."

However - I know for future works I'll have to do research. That's not to say I'll outline. I'll gather knowledge about certain careers and what have you, and use that to fill in background and details as I write the book. I don't know how much I'll need to know before I start writing, so I'll probably do a few interviews and say, "Is it okay if I email or call in future if I need to ask you about art galleries/hospitals/police stations?" In the main, people are happy to spout off about their area of expertise.

I have an idea for a book involving time-travel brewing though, and I can well see myself outlining that or at the least writing extensive notes. It involves someone going back in time and doing things that affect their 'present', their 'reality', so I'll need at the absolute minimum, a timeline/worldline to keep my head from exploding.

[Mel]

Both. It depends on the story. Eventually I may end up doing outlines for everything. I did 3 for NaNo last year. One ended up sucking big time - outline that is. One not so bad. The third worked better, but I think I had more detail, although, it still needs much more. Right, it's not finished, but I like it a lot and am still working on it, along with the other one that wasn't too bad. I think the one that didn't work, or maybe it was just my writing, will have to be revamped because there are things I do like about the story.

I have others that have no outline and may never have one, but if I get too stuck I know now that I can set one up. It was, for me, a matter of getting past the standard outline we all learn and being able to move past that and do it a completely different way.

[Azure Skye]

I've done both but I'm leaning more toward the "outline" now than in the past. When I say outline though it doesn't fit the technical definition of an outline; it's more like a loose synopsis and it only deals with the major plot points.

[lisamarie]

I don't usually do an outline, but I'm going to start. And if I don't do that, I'll at least write up a brief treatment or something.

[Chain of Memories]

With an outline I can clear future problems in the plot and eliminate more chances for errors. But I still find the whole process of writing one, kind of tiring. Even though I like winging it, I have learned from other members' posts that an outline can be very helpful. So in my next writing venture I will try to make a loose guideline to what I will be writing.:) -Jay

[Hakiru]

I like to wing it in writing. I enjoy the thrill and suspense of a new idea that has just popped into your mind!

[Twilight's Chapter]

Dear Jay,

I prefer winging it. Somehow it just gives me that certaint thrill or adrenaline rush.

TC

[Anthony Ravenscroft]

I don't know of anyone (with the possible exception of Kerouac & Fanthorpe) who's written a book beginning-to-end, even allowing for cleanup of typos. It's rare enough with short pieces.

Maybe we should have a contest. Make it easy: only 35K words or something. But each thousand-or-so must be cut loose & submitted, & cannot have any substantive changes thereafter.

Not that I think (like some NaNoWriMo entrants) some people might try to sneak in with chunks from a prewritten & obsessively edited manuscript....

[scarletpeaches]

I don't know of anyone (with the possible exception of Kerouac & Fanthorpe) who's written a book beginning-to-end, even allowing for cleanup of typos.

Welcome to AW. Plenty people here have done just that.

Maybe we should have a contest. Make it easy: only 35K words or something. But each thousand-or-so must be cut loose & submitted, & cannot have any substantive changes thereafter.

Can we assume from your post that your outlined first drafts are perfect and not in need of any substantial changes?

You seem to be under the misapprehension that "I don't outline," means "I don't edit," which is simply not true.

[Chain of Memories]

Dear Jay,

I prefer winging it. Somehow it just gives me that certaint thrill or adrenaline rush.

TC


I know exactly what you mean! That's why I love "flying" through stories by winging it!

-Jay

[Chain of Memories]

I like to wing it in writing. I enjoy the thrill and suspense of a new idea that has just popped into your mind!

Nice to meet you Hakiru! I'm glad that you prefer winging it also!

Jay

[CheshireCat]

Welcome to AW. Plenty people here have done just that.

Can we assume from your post that your outlined first drafts are perfect and not in need of any substantial changes?

You seem to be under the misapprehension that "I don't outline," means "I don't edit," which is simply not true.

Yeah, I really don't understand his position here. I don't outline. I write my books start to finish -- but at the start of every workday tend to go back and tinker with whatever I wrote the day before. So it's a sort of two-steps-forward-one-step-back process, with plenty of editing involved.

Which doesn't change the fact that I don't outline, and when I get to the last chapter I seldom have to go back into the first half of the book and "fix" anything due to an unexpected plot progression in the second half.

If that makes any sense. :Shrug:

[tjwriter]

I don't know of anyone (with the possible exception of Kerouac & Fanthorpe) who's written a book beginning-to-end, even allowing for cleanup of typos. It's rare enough with short pieces.

Maybe we should have a contest. Make it easy: only 35K words or something. But each thousand-or-so must be cut loose & submitted, & cannot have any substantive changes thereafter.

Not that I think (like some NaNoWriMo entrants) some people might try to sneak in with chunks from a prewritten & obsessively edited manuscript....

I'm going to have to agree with scarletpeaches and CheshireCat on this one. Where does it say that even with an outline that something in your story doesn't change or you don't come up with a better idea later and have to rework some of the previous parts? Or even that just because you used Method A, that means that your story is going to need "fixin'" later?

Plenty of people that do and don't outline write the story straight through and then have to fix some things where the idea changed or they saw a hole that they missed the first time around. It works both ways. Just like I am sure that plenty of people who do both don't have to go back and rework things.

It's not finite in terms of successful methods for writers. It's more of a spectrum. And the methods and the results may vary book-to-book.

[BarbJ]

Sort of both. My first draft is start to finish; some chapters are no more than an one-sentence idea, while others are twenty or thirty pages of continuous flow. In between, I shove in (first draft is always pen and paper) pages with improvements to direction/sentences/whatever as they pop into my head, which can also be one sentence or several pages.

Then comes the actual writing.

[alleycat]

What about prologues?

(I'm so bad . . . )

[pickman]

I used to wing it, but I prefer outlines now. It's not as if you have to force yourself to stick to the plan as you write.

[Anthony Ravenscroft]

Plenty people here have done just that.
Cool!! Name 50 published novels, then.

Oh, I see: elementary hyperbole. Okay, name ten.
Can we assume from your post that your outlined first drafts are perfect and not in need of any substantial changes? You seem to be under the misapprehension that "I don't outline," means "I don't edit"
Are you being intentionally dishonest, or do you just have this confused with some other colourful website? (Hint: it's not eBay.) It's the mulchers who feel that "an outline is too restrictive, weh weh weh, once you block out a plot you're committed to it forever!!!"

Yeah, it's true that I think most anti-outliners are deluded &/or lying. If they succeed, it's because they sit down to the typewriter with a whole heckuva lot of stuff already worked out in their heads & possibly in extensive notes, maybe a beginning & a few plot-turns & a big finish, & the ones who get the result published do so only because of extensive editing & revision, including adding & removing major elements & big chunks.

Yet they'll claim they "like to be surprised" or "refuse to be restricted." That's fundamentally dishonest, & encourages beginners to avoid techniques that might readily prove powerful for a given project, assuming they aren't made twitchy about that tool by content-free superstitious yapping.

A writer like Ken Follett commonly goes through ten or more detailed outlines, often with the only similarity from Version D to Version E being a secondary character, a vague setting, & a plot-twist -- yeah, sounds like he's a definite slave to his preconceptions, eh?

In Albert Zuckerman's Writing the Blockbuster Novel, he prevails on Follett (his client) for four generations of outline that became The Man from St. Petersburg. All the anti-outliners are free to read it & have more to work from than shallow opinion & a half-remembered Stephen King quote. Anyone who hasn't rejected the tool can see how an established pro uses outlines.
Yes! The "winging it" option is winning! No hard feelings!
I'd guess that these "whoops -- wrong planet!!" moments are a little embarrassing.

(FWIW, I chose "It depends." I'm not stupid enough to discard a perfectly good tool, nor to assume that everything's a nail just 'cause I got this shiny new hammer from Mommy.)

[Dave.C.Robinson]

I'm mostly winging my current WIP and it's much harder than previous ones. I have plenty of notes-- but the outline is much rougher than usual and it makes it hard.

I find it's better to have a basic structure to hang things on-- I can always change it later. I don't always need to write the outline-- but I do need to have an idea of where I'm going and what the book's about. I also support writing it down because it lets me see things. Then I can move them around and make the story work.

[Chain of Memories]

What about prologues?

(I'm so bad . . . )

I like prologues! They're very fun to write. Prologues give the writer a chance to grab the reader's attention before the story actually starts.

-Jay

[Steffi]

I usually start writing, writing , writing, until that initial gush has slowed to a trickle. When I get a substantial amount of work I print it out, go back and summarize the chapters on index cards and note characters introduced. I literally lay each chapter out on the floor with it's summary index card stuck on it. This way I can physically see the progression of the story.

I create a time line of events and do character bios around this time, too. And I start editing and moving things around. By this time I get an idea of where I want the story to go and what it's going to take to get to THE END. So it's a distant cousin of outlining, but it seemed to work for me.

[Writer14]

I wing it to. The only thing i don't 'wing' are the characters. I spend a lot of time on developing them =] cuz i love them soooooo much. haha!

[JoNightshade]

I usually start writing, writing , writing, until that initial gush has slowed to a trickle. When I get a substantial amount of work I print it out, go back and summarize the chapters on index cards and note characters introduced. I literally lay each chapter out on the floor with it's summary index card stuck on it. This way I can physically see the progression of the story.

I am trying this notecard method with my current WIP (based on someone's suggestion in the LAST "outlining" thread), and so far I like it. This is pretty extreme, but I am actually making a notecard for each scene. As I make the notecard, I summarize the plot points and then force myself to write down the PURPOSE of the scene, to justify its existence (ie - MC realizes that he can't leave his father; reader realizes that MC carries a gun). However, my process is currently going something like this:

- Write 10 pages.
- Summarize and justify each scene on a note card
- Write 5 more notecards
- Write out the next 3 notecard scenes in full
- Add a few more notecards for the future
Etc.

So I am always outpacing myself a little with notecards-- I always have somewhere to go next. Then, as I am writing and I think of something I should add to a scene I've already written, I go and make a note on the back of that notecard. Hopefully after I finish my first draft, I will go back and add in these changes. In the meantime, I continue the story as if I have already made the change.

It is also helping me to review what I have already done. In the past, I have had to read through my entire manuscript about once a week to refresh my memory; now I just flip through the cards.

I have tried, many times, to write out a full outline. Frankly, it just kills me. I am a very detailed outliner and I feel compelled to include all of my ideas in the outline in case I "lose" them. But then this turns into a gargantuan project and halfway through I realize "I should just start writing this." I always know where my plot is going to end up, but how I get there changes constantly in the process of writing. If I had to outline every time I made a major change, I would go insane. I can see how it might help someone else, though.

I mean, I just had to flip all of my notecards around and reorder them and add some new ones because a scene I was writing demanded to be over about halfway through. I just realized in the process of writing it that it was SO much better that way... but then I had to find a way to incorporate the information that got cut off.

[scarletpeaches]

...Are you being intentionally dishonest, or do you just have this confused with some other colourful website?...Yeah, it's true that I think most anti-outliners are deluded &/or lying...That's fundamentally dishonest...shallow opinion & a half-remembered Stephen King quote...

What EXACTLY is your problem with people whose opinions and methods differ from yours? Are you incapable of displaying good manners?

[Steffi]

But Scarletpeaches, don't you know you look cool and intellectual when you act snarky?

[Trench Kamen]

Chain, I am totally digging the Lelouch icon, by the way.

I wing it, but I like to mentally develop characters and concepts before blindly writing. I guess that counts as "mental outlining", in a sense, but I doubt that is what was meant by asking if one outlines.

[WriteWay]

Oddly, I find that I need both. I sit uncomfortably on the cusp of chaos and order. I can't start a project without winging it, which eventually inspires me to make an outline, but the outline inevitably inspires me to wing it to fill the interstices of the outline. So for me, do I outline or not outline? The answer is yes.

Brian

[LeeFlower]

ok, I don't want to hang out much in this thread, but I seriously have to wonder why people get so defensive of their various methods.

I write an outline. That's what works for me. I don't feel that it makes the process any less creative or surprising for me; I just find it easier (If I try to write without one, I just get writer's block). I can't speak to whether or not it makes revisions easier, because I've never completed a project without using one. If other people prefer to write without them, good for them. Whatever gets you to 'the end,' right?

I find the generalizations about which system is better really unproductive. Writing is a personal process that everyone handles differently, and people can only accurately speak to their own experience with it. It frankly wouldn't matter a whit to me if everyone in the entire universe voted for 'no outline.' I know what works for me and I'm stickin' to it.

I mean honestly, are we going to start arguing about whether or not listening to music while you work is distracting or helpful? It's different for every person.

[RLSMiller]

I mean honestly, are we going to start arguing about whether or not listening to music while you work is distracting or helpful? It's different for every person.

LIES! MUSIC IS A POET'S VICE, NOT A NOVELIST'S! IF YOU WANT AURAL STIMULATION, LISTEN TO THE NEWS!

*takes his crazy cap off.*

Sorry about that. :)

[rwam]

My thoughts are inexperienced (or experienced but thus far unsuccessful at publication) should lean towards outlining. Doing so increases the odds that you've thought out your conflicts, the stakes, plot, etc. I'm not saying that the outline controls your writing, but - at a minimum - use it to make sure you've got the essential elements.

Sure, we can point to the wildly successful authors who scoff at the idea of outlining. But us writers are an arrogant lot. There's a difference between loving to write and having the gift of telling a story.

On the other hand, if you're not a natural Hemmingway or Twain and are simply writing for the sheer pleasure of spontaneous creation and not for publication, I think you should just do whatever feels right. Seems like outlining might spoil the fun in that case.

[CheshireCat]

ok, I don't want to hang out much in this thread, but I seriously have to wonder why people get so defensive of their various methods.

I write an outline. That's what works for me. I don't feel that it makes the process any less creative or surprising for me; I just find it easier (If I try to write without one, I just get writer's block). I can't speak to whether or not it makes revisions easier, because I've never completed a project without using one. If other people prefer to write without them, good for them. Whatever gets you to 'the end,' right?

I find the generalizations about which system is better really unproductive. Writing is a personal process that everyone handles differently, and people can only accurately speak to their own experience with it. It frankly wouldn't matter a whit to me if everyone in the entire universe voted for 'no outline.' I know what works for me and I'm stickin' to it.

I mean honestly, are we going to start arguing about whether or not listening to music while you work is distracting or helpful? It's different for every person.

Well said.

I don't outline, and that works for me. I've found that successful writers tend to do that, find the tools that work best for them.

And I like prologues.

And I have to listen to music/sounds without words when I write.

And when I haven't any red, I use blue.

Hmmm ...

[D.Hall]

I do not outline the entire story in one sitting.

I create an outline for about four chapters at a time (outline four chapters, write the four chapters).

My outlines usually look like this:

1) Sue drinks a while driving. John scolds Sue for drinking while driving--establish conflict.
2) Establish relationship with Sue and her mother.
3) Sue gets in car accident--meets guy at hospital
4) Sue vows never to drink again. Discovers guy she met at hospital is a alcoholic.

blah, blah and so on

I still have to figure out what will lead up to the events and how to finish them off. I have some structure, but I'm not too restricted; I still get "surprised".

[Danger Jane]

I was thinking a little more about this. I don't really feel a need to outline, I generally work the plot out in my head, but when I sit down to write, I write my major scenes and major-minor scenes first and end up with something that's too short. In my WIP now I'm fleshing out around that. So it's like a fat outline made up of scenes, like the milestone scenes or what Holly Lisle calls on her website "candy bar scenes" (I think that's what she called them, it's been a while since I read that...).

[JoNightshade]

I was thinking a little more about this. I don't really feel a need to outline, I generally work the plot out in my head, but when I sit down to write, I write my major scenes and major-minor scenes first and end up with something that's too short. In my WIP now I'm fleshing out around that. So it's like a fat outline made up of scenes, like the milestone scenes or what Holly Lisle calls on her website "candy bar scenes" (I think that's what she called them, it's been a while since I read that...).

This is cool if it works for you-- actually I wish I could do that. But if I did, I would write all the awesome major scenes and then I would just quit. :)

[Danger Jane]

This is cool if it works for you-- actually I wish I could do that. But if I did, I would write all the awesome major scenes and then I would just quit. :)

Yeah it takes some discipline; also some THERE IS NO MARKET FOR YOUR 20,000 WORD STORY...also some there is not enough story here. Plus then I can focus on the less important scenes and make them just as important and meaningful.

[Varthikes]

I currently use a chapter-by-chapter outline with a brief description of what I want to happen at that point.

I didn't always do that, though. When I didn't, I found that it took me about an hour to remember what was going to happen in the scene and get back into the story.

[Chain of Memories]

Wow! The outline option is winning by just one to winging it! Guess people just do what works best for them!

-Jay