Critics rewriting your poem: Yes or no?

[poetinahat]

Sometimes, when people are offering crits, they rewrite the original poem as a way of offering suggestions.

How do you feel about receiving that sort of feedback?

[poetinahat]

Me, I prefer not to get feedback that way. It feels like someone else trying to tell me they know me better than I know myself. But I'm a little thin-skinned, and it's easy enough to say "no rewrites, please".

Otherwise, I'm very happy for full candor. It pleases me that people will take the time to think about something I wrote, and it helps me to improve.

So, if you read a poem of mine, please -- fire away. Just don't do the rewrite for me!

[Pat~]

Ooh, good point, Rob. I was guilty of doing that just this week. Trying to be helpful, of course, but probably not too welcome.

It's probably better just to say that for me "x" stanzas didn't work, and let it go at that.

Sometimes people have rewritten parts of mine, usually with the comment to take it or leave it. Sometimes the rewrite helped me think of a third solution better than both the first try and the crit's rewrite. I'd have to say that most often other people's rewrites didn't feel enough like "me" for me to adopt them--but I appreciated their effort, anyway, esp. if it helped me come up with a better solution.

[poetinahat]

My main concern with rewrites is that they can hijack the poem's initial meaning. It seems to happen now and then.

[ddgryphon]

I've tried to back off from doing that--example lines, but not full rewrites, because I sometimes feel I'll inadequately state what I'm thinking and an example will sometimes help--but I've backed off from complete rewrites for a number of reasons.

As for complete rewrites for my works, they don't bother me, but the expectation shouldn't be that I use the rewrite, but rather look at the example of the rewrite as an instructional act. Rewrites like that are done on the fly and not always (at least when I do them) perfect examples. They are in the minute reactions as opposed to labored over poems. They are meant as signposts, not destinations.

[skelly]

I'm usually a bit miffed when somebody thinks they can rewrite in minutes something that I have been working on for a substantial amount of time...sometimes years. But I am only talking about the crits that completely rewrite the poem. These kinds of critiques are useless because even if I like your rewrite I'm not going to use it...that would make it "our" poem, and that gives me the "icky" feeling. Word suggestions and rewriting/rearranging a few lines or stanzas by way of example doesn't bother me, though. Very helpful. I've done the rewrite type crit in the past, and I tried to make it very clear that I was only showing an example of what I was talking about in the main crit portion, but I wasn't comfortable with it.

Good topic, Rob.

[JRH]

All I'm really looking for in a Critique/Review is a sense of whether I'm achieving my goals in each poem, but I don't mind people nitpicking over words or punctuation, or even total rewrites as what they come up with me tells me more about their training, their biases, and their ability to percieve my various meanings.

It's extremely unlikely, that any such will result in any major changes (or even minor ones) in any of my poems, but it does give me the chance to explain why I do things the way I do and why I think my ways are more appropriate, thus hopefully providing some insights into the nature of craftsmanship.

Just another proof that I'm out of step with the rest of the Poetic World.

Jim Hoye, (JRH)

[scarletpeaches]

I hate rewrites. It ends up being someone else's work that way - no-one else could possibly write something in the way I could; they don't have my life experiences, they don't know what inspired the poem. That's not to say my poems are any better or worse than anyone else's - they just end up not being mine after a rewrite. Suggestions for improvement are just about okay, but I prefer critiques along the lines of, "I don't understand what you meant in line three," or "I liked the second verse because..."

I want to know what works and what doesn't, what's clear and what isn't, so I can clarify it in my way.

Can't you just tell I'm territorial? Get your damn hands off my sonnet! :D

[seppuku05]

I am okay with people rewriting what I put on show, it demonstrates how you could execute their point, it's a helpful reference. It has its downsides, like some people may feel that it's rude and perhaps see it as negative feedback - for example it could be a statement - "This is how it should sound" with 'you are a beginner' connotations. But with my rewritten poem I was happy with the feedback, I've never had anyone criticise my work from a poet's point of view (I've had it analysed from the point of view with language), and it will set me in the direction for how poetry works.

I think if you're going to rewrite someone's poem, you need to be conscious of the other person, if you don't know what they're like with criticisms, approach with caution as LimeyDawg did with me, but generally if someone cannot handle your criticisms, they're not going to do well in the writing world. ;)

[LimeyDawg]

I can tell you that, from a critting standpoint, it is sometimes easier to rewrite than explain all the things I want to point out. There are some valid points here, but it should always be taken as suggestion. I think the issue is when the rewrite hijacks the thread, taking focus away from the poets work. Still, as KTC points out, a poet should have a take it or leave it attitude towards this or any other crit point.

[Norman D Gutter]

When I post a poem for critique, it is usually after much thought, editing, and revision of my own, and only when I can see no more to do with it. Yet I know it has flaws. Almost always the critters will hone in on those lines I already know are flawed. Hopefully they will offer a suggestion for better wording. I may not use their wording, but those suggestions may spur me on to yet another wording that meets my intent and works perfectly in the poem.

So I don't mind suggested alternate wordings, alternate line breaks, alternate stanza breaks, etc. I see it as integral to critique, and welcome it.

NDG

[Perks]

I have to say that I've never read a rewrite that didn't rankle just a bit.

There's a fine line in critiquing between this-didn't-work-as-well-as-the-rest (which is helpful) and well-this-is-how-I-would-do-it (which is useless.) Poetry is, in my opinion, much much more difficult to critique than prose, precisely because the words are so few and, generally speaking by necessity, more carefully chosen.

But, I cannot argue that once it's out there, the poet/author should be - at least superficially - gracious. For decorum's sake.

[Annie O]

I'm happy for my work to be rewritten, although I am unlikely to change it. I think if people have taken the time to critique we should be grateful. If we can't stand criticism then we shouldn't post our poem in the first place. I think there is a danger of losing some of our fine critters if we complain too much.

[solo]

i so agree with LD ... it can take ages to try and tell what/how something could (NOT should) be changed ... i'm a hopeless critter (in technical terms) and sometimes need to try and show (NOT tell) what my instincts are saying about a piece. I would never imbue anything i suggest with any form of wisdom that must be adopted. Nor could/does a piece become "mine" because i say or do anything with it ...

Receiving comment of any kind beyond "cool write" is as much a learned skill as any other interaction ... maybe it's harder because we can't hear the voice on the other end and we're all too quick to beat ourselves up with insecurity anyway?

[davids]

Don't care a hog's tit! I have had a few partially re written-usually miss the whole thing so I just take it or leave it. Me? Yah I have at least done a bit of that sort of thing-just in an effort when something is potentially terrific but maybe full of words that detract-well-then I might take a crack at showing how maybe it can just be cut a bit. Like solo I have no knowledge whatsoever of the technical aspects-as I once said to louis-I would not know a triolet from a Chevrolet-yah I know I probably should but hey right wrong or indifferent-ats a meeah

[veinglory]

I love it.

A critic cannot rewrite "my" poem, only I can do that. But if they want to share their vision of it I want to see it--if they give me something I can use I appreciate it.

[Mysti]

Ooh, good point, Rob. I was guilty of doing that just this week. Trying to be helpful, of course, but probably not too welcome.

It's probably better just to say that for me "x" stanzas didn't work, and let it go at that.

Pat, I have to comment here as the rewrites completed by yourself and Terri have helped me look at my story set to poetry in a completely different manner. It's been difficult as there are certain lines that have really stuck with me; and has brought me to challenge myself to match the flow and rhyming mechanisms present as well as modify the overall content of the story.

Sometimes, when people are offering crits, they rewrite the original poem as a way of offering suggestions.

How do you feel about receiving that sort of feedback?

For me, the rewrite has proved quite beneficial. I am an open person when it comes to critiques; understanding the intentions behind the critique and welcome all suggestions. I do not have to keep those suggestions, but having a different view of my works opens my eyes greatly.

[Dylan]

I do it constantly (offer rewrites, I mean).
As LD says, it helps to illustrate how the suggested changes would improve the poem. I also don`t mind when my own work is critiqued in this manner-(think Louis has re-written everything I`ve submitted).
But as with any crit, only suggestions are offered-the final decision is with the writer.

[scarletpeaches]

That's just it, though - the suggestion that a rewrite is an 'improvement'.

I've had critiques before that have almost said, "Write it this way, it's better...your rhyme-scheme's all over the place," and it was a bloody sonnet - I know the rhyme scheme of a sonnet FFS!

It always helps, if someone insists on rewriting, if they know the form you're using. Otherwise I think, "You've never heard of a <insert verse form here> so I'm going to ignore everything you say."

[dobiwon]

If I get an extensive re-write, I tend to just skip over the whole critique the first time I see it. If someone changes most of what I wrote, well, I wrote it the way I did because I liked it like that.

But then I usually go back, because I'll probably find something useful. Like Norman, if I'm posting for critique, I know there are some flaws, and I'd like to hear opinions of others to identify, and quite possibly offer suggestions to correct, those flaws. (If I thought the whole thing was a flaw, I wouldn't post it.)

On the other hand, if someone says that a particular phrase or line doesn't work, then if they do suggest alternative wording, maybe I can see why. Or at least tell if they are getting the same thing out of it that I thought I put into it.

When I critique a poem, before I hit "Submit Reply" I read it over and ask myself if I were the poet, would I find the critique helpful? If not, Edit...Select All...Delete. And because poetry is so difficult to critique, this happens probably more times than not.

[davids]

That's just it, though - the suggestion that a rewrite is an 'improvement'.

I've had critiques before that have almost said, "Write it this way, it's better...your rhyme-scheme's all over the place," and it was a bloody sonnet - I know the rhyme scheme of a sonnet FFS!

It always helps, if someone insists on rewriting, if they know the form you're using. Otherwise I think, "You've never heard of a <insert verse form here> so I'm going to ignore everything you say."


What was a sonnet again?

[scarletpeaches]

14 lobsters sitting in a row. :D

[Dylan]

Well, any suggestion made by someone critiquing a poem could be construed as "offering improvement".
It is only one persons opinion -quite often a rewrite offers another insight into a poem.

[Magdalen]

I've had my poems and my prose "rewritten" and at first I thought it was absurd. Now I understand that it might be a "method" or "style" of a critter. So I read that type of crit with my Kosher Salt nearby.

I agree with skellly up to a point.

These kinds of critiques are useless because even if I like your rewrite I'm not going to use it...that would make it "our" poem, and that gives me the "icky" feeling.

Some critters are able to use this method with some skill.

When I give a crit, it is because I liked the poem, was struck by it somehow, or because I really don't like it (I have to work harder on those) or because it's a newbie and I want to play the game with them. I am still very hesitant to crit on some of the "Establishment" here. No matter what, though, I always read the poem at least 3 times before I comment.

[pconsidine]

One of the definite pluses of having gone to art school is having had the experience of sitting in a studio for 9 hours, giving and receiving critiques. Granted, that didn't involve someone getting up with a paint brush and adding a few dabs here and there, but the effect can be very similar. One of the best things that I learned from that is that even a jackass can have a good point.

That said, I don't really know how I would react to someone actively rewriting my work, poetry or otherwise. It hasn't happened yet, to my knowledge. I do a fair amount of freelance writing, which has definitely trained me in the art of writing to suit someone else's opinions (they are paying for it, after all), but no one has ever truly touched my work.

I guess I'll have to post another poem and see what happens, huh?

[Stew21]

Rewrites don't bother me. If it is the best way the critter knows to show their perspective, I take from it what I can. Comparing the differences is interesting. I don't take offense to it in the slightest, usually because I have always felt that I only take what I like, what I feel adds to the piece, and is still within my voice and the intention of the poem itself.
They can rewrite if the want to, doesn't bother me a bit, I just can't say that I'll use much of it as a lot of it lacks what I consider my intention or voice or takes away an element I want to keep for it. I consider it a learning experience and the also consider it is the best the critiquer could do in order to make his/her points to me about the work.
If someone wants to rewrite my stuff, by all means. It's still my work and final call on how it is presented is still mine.

[Cassie88]

I ditto everything Trish said.

I'm guilty of sometimes rewritting a line or lines - just to demonstrate a point that I probably was not articulate enough to explain properly. And since I don't mind someone rewriting parts of a poem I've written, I assume the writer won't mind either. I see that's not always the case.

In this thread, Dirk said that a critique, and I think he meant one with or without any parts rewritten, should be taken as a "signpost, not a destination." Well said, Dirk.

Funny, right before I saw this thread, I read Dirk's, "Arbeit Macht Frei," and I tried unsuccessfully to discuss the last stanza. I didn't post .. but because of this thread and his post, I'm going back, knowing he understands it's a "signpost."

[Ultra]

I find rewrites pretty offensive (though it's never happened to me). But I find much of the "this doesn't really work for me" equally offensive, because it presumes that the critic's taste is indicative of the taste of the larger audience that the poet hopes to achieve.

The most helpful crits are ones that accurately observe what's happening in the poem, and they rarely offer any sort of suggestion. "The diction in your second stanza varies widely from that of the other stanzas" is the kind of thing that might illuminate how the poem is working for the poet, but "the third stanza isn't as good as the others" hardly does something like that. Most everyone here is pretty good about telling why they feel a certain way, though.

[Pat~]

Personally, I like it when someone tells me if a part "doesn't really work for me." It makes me look a second time, not because that person was speaking for the larger audience, but because there might be a good reason it didn't work for him--and possibly I could state it better with a little thought.

I don't want just noncommittal observations about the features of my poem. I want response. I want to know if it worked, and esp. if it worked in a big way. And so some of the time I'm going to hear about it not working.

[veinglory]

In the end I don't think anyone should be told their crit isn't welcome--let alone take affront. Even if a crit isn't much use it is still someone's time and effort, a gift.

[P.H.Delarran]

I've had crits done as complete rewrites which changed the poem completely, and left no shred of my original voice. I ignored the rewrite as a suggestion, but did still get a message from the crit. That was that what I was trying to say either fell flat or confused or lead the reader to an entirely different train of thought than I intended. Which is still an insight into their reaction to my poem, and appretiated as a crit.
I've also had one or two that even tho' the rewritten stanzas worked, I felt like it was not my words, therefore I did not feel comfy using it.
Changing word order around, or suggesting an occasional word substitution or rephrasing can be helpful, especially when an explanation is offered.

[LimeyDawg]

I find rewrites pretty offensive (though it's never happened to me). But I find much of the "this doesn't really work for me" equally offensive, because it presumes that the critic's taste is indicative of the taste of the larger audience that the poet hopes to achieve.

I'm not sure if I can agree here, at least at face value. "This doesn't really work for me" is a self-limiting statement, not a generalization. What the critter is telling you is that the part in question isn't working for one member of your audience. Of course, it's always more helpful to know why that part isn't working, but I've always taken things like this into consideration when doing rewrites. If a great many crits home in on one aspect of the work then they are likely to be valid on at least some level although, as has been repeated here, the author is free to do with crits as he or she pleases. I've had plenty of my work rewritten by people doing crits. I've taken some ideas, discarded a great many, but always came away with a better understanding of how the poem affects the audience.

[NeuroFizz]

Anytime anyone reads one of my poems, I'm thrilled.

Anytime a person comments on one of my poems, I'm grateful for their time and flattered they'd want to help me think about the content of my piece.

Anytime I forward a crit, I fully expect the author will NOT alter the piece on my words alone, but that he/she will see my comments as an honest attempt at constructive criticism, but certainly not from someone as intimate with the poem as the author himself/herself.

Anytime one of my crits makes sense to the author, or at least makes him/her re-think a part of a poem, I'm thrilled to have helped.

That's about it, and I think that answers the original question (for me).

[louiscypher]

I can tell you that, from a critting standpoint, it is sometimes easier to rewrite than explain all the things I want to point out. There are some valid points here, but it should always be taken as suggestion. I think the issue is when the rewrite hijacks the thread, taking focus away from the poets work. Still, as KTC points out, a poet should have a take it or leave it attitude towards this or any other crit point.

Or they'll send you infantile little PMS's like this one -eh?


MacAllister (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/member.php?u=13) vbmenu_register("postmenu_", true);
"'twas but a dream of thee"
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Community
Look, belonging to a community isn't performance art. It involves actually engaging, responding, and caring about what the conversation is and how the other participants are interacting.

PoetinaHat has patiently tried to bring you into the conversation, and you seem quite determined to hijack, derail, and otherwise sabotage any conversation you're part of.

Desist, for chrissakes.

Seriously. If you'd like to actually participate, you'll find AW a remarkable community. Otherwise, find somewhere else to show off like a bored teenager.

Oh, and save me the boring "Censorship! Nazi! Freedom of Speech!" crap. It's old and tired and a poor excuse for behaving disruptively.

best,
Mac

Best What MAC, Your brand of shit?

[poetinahat]

And that will be all for mr. cypher.

[Annie O]

oops!

[trumancoyote]

Huh. It's better than the one she sent me:

MacAllister (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/member.php?u=13) vbmenu_register("postmenu_", true);
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Fire of my loins

Look, Zach. I wish you were a big old steak so I could just devour you up whereupon you'd live in my stomach and be a part of me. Because we're meant to be together, baby. And that way we'd be together forever, at least until my small and large intestines tag-team rip you into little bits and mash you into gunk and then turn you into poop that, incidentally, I will save in a bucket in my freezer so that I can at least have you close at hand, if not in my stomach -- which, of course, would be ideal.

What I'm saying is... I love you, Zach. Will you be the steak to my voracious appetite for beef?

hungrily yours,
Mac

[Rivana]

*blinks at the last posts*
Right, well...back on topic now shall we..

Anyway. This is the same conversation over and over again on the forum it seems, indeed it is the same conversation as is prevalent in any sort of forum where creative ideas and products are exchanged, showcased and critiqued.
It is always however, quite interesting to see how different we are from each other, and how differently we view those around us, and the world.

Poets, and artists of any kind, are often quite emotional, especially when it comes to their, our, work. We have ideas we want to communicate, we want recognition and support, but we want everything our way and every time we find out that other people are not like us, we hurt. When we hurt we perceive to have been hurt, even if that was not necessarily the intent of the other party. We are so, so fragile...aren't we. Might be good to remember sometimes... The artist is fragile, but so is the critiquer. And the artist might have the right to their work and their voice, but the recipient and viewer equally has the right to perceive that work through their own glasses. They cannot use the artist's frame of reference, they cannot read the artist's mind, they can only perceive, reflect, and if the artist is lucky, share their reflections. We are not all English major's who revel in meter, grammar and style. We are not all emotional impressionists who write up brilliant light as soon as the pen touches the paper. We cannot all even see that light as brilliant, sometimes it's simply bland to us, and that is as it should be. Perhaps our glasses are green, or red, or blue...and we cannot see the other colors quite as clearly. It simply doesn't move us.

Look at me rambling on about differences again. Anyway (use that word a lot, don't I...) Seeing a re-write or any sort of critique that you don't agree with stings, whether we are enlightened and understanding of our differences or not, critique hurts in some manner for everyone. Not necessarily because we think someone wants to hurt us, but because someone doesn't understand us, isn't like us, and that hurts. We failed to catch hold of someone who tumbled into our world of perpetual loneliness, and that hurts, because it's scary out here in the world, all alone.

*groans* Now it's turning even more philosophical, I swear it wasn't what I intended. Anyway (3), to answer the question straight up:

I don't have anything against rewrites, or any form of constructive criticism. I've had one person tell me a work was brilliant, while another said I should just start over. While neither of those comments were very constructive, it still told me what those reading thought of it all. Well, those who commented. I'm never sure how many people read or view my stuff anywhere online, how many people like it, hate it, are indifferent or enamored. I much prefer an answer to silence, even if it's a rewrite. As long as it's not an all out flame, I don't mind. It may hurt, and I may disagree and it may, many things, but I am grateful every time someone takes a moment to tell me in their own honest words, how my work affected them. If they want to rewrite something to help demonstrate their point, then all the better. Then I'll really know what they're after. I may not change a damn thing, but I've gotten a little bit closer to my reader, and that's all I ever really wanted, in the end.

[MacAllister]

You said you'd never tell, Zach.

Errr, I actually did write the first one. These are intense enough conversations without having to deal with someone who only seems to want to start fires.

[Bartholomew]

Huh. It's better than the one she sent me:

That'd be believable except...

Oh, bugger. You'll find out for yourself. :)

By the way, you owe me a new monitor and keyboard. I snerted coffee out of my nose.

[pconsidine]

Rivana,

I think the philosophical aspects are relevant, so no apologies necessary there. A productive critique is always a result of a match between author and critic. We're all familiar with those authors for whom only "I love it!" will suffice. We're also familiar with those critics for whom nothing they didn't write themselves will ever escape a thrashing.

One of the things I've always known about myself is that I prefer to have read something from the people reviewing my work, as a way to judge the perspective behind the comments. That's one of the reasons that I began to contribute here beyond my Blue Rock contribution. I wanted people to see be able to put any comments I offer in context – "a person who writes like this said that about my poem."

It's funny. I went back last night and reread all my posts in the poetry forum, just to see where I stood. I think I did okay. I might have suggested fairly specific revisions (e.g., "I'd like to see the poem start with the second stanza"), but that's as far as it went.

It's a tough game we play here. So much heart and soul goes into the words that appear here that finding that they haven't moved everyone equally as much as they moved us is a challenge.

Good thing we manage to get through it okay, eh?

[Rivana]

pconsidine<<< Good thing indeed, and great idea about reading some work by the critic. That actually helps a lot, I think, or so I've noticed from receiving crits from people I know a little something about. It's easier to see where they're coming from that way.

[Angelinity]

me, i don't mind if my scribbles happen to get another writer/poet's juices flowing. hey, ideas are out there floating in ether waiting to be fished out...

i actually enjoyed seeing my poems morph into another's abstract...it's fun :D

[Jenny]

Interesting discussion. Confirms for me that I like you people. To go on record, I'm fine with people re-writing my work. I appreciate all crits. I'm amazed and grateful that people give my poems some of their scarce time. In return, I try to be as helpful as I can in my crits of others' work; but just like I'm an amateur poet, I'm an amateur critter.

Years ago a study showed that people perceive criticism of their work as balanced when it contains three positive comments to one negative. This is a scary thought when venturing into critting.

[LaceWing]

I have my pushy moments when I might offer several-too-many suggestions -- enough to look like a rewrite. But I know if someone gets ticked off about it, I've pushed them far enough to find the wall they were looking for, or the cliff they wanted to jump from, possibly gotten them closer to whatever is driving the poem in the first place.

[Ganesha]

crits seem to be very personal. I like getting feedback, it means someone is reading my poetry. I am honored. I write for my pure pleasure and pain. I don't make a living at this yet...I guess there's hope. maybe not. I always appreciate any response unless it's a personal attack. we all wear different skin.

[kdnxdr]

I haven't posted, or even been in AW, for awhile now. Had massive computer problems and not enough money to just go buy a new one. And I've missed you all so much.

On re-rewrites for crits, I would have to say that I don't mind getting them if the one who rewrote the poem doesn't mind if I kindly don't absorb their re-write as my new poem.

It's very interesting to see how someone else responds to what I'm trying to express and those "dialogue critiques" are my fave.

In the end, your poem is your poem is your poem and those that want to support and encourage the expression of poetry respect the process of the poet, especially in a workshop.

kid

[Kalthandrix]

Personally, I am against re-writes of mine or others work unless they specifically state that they are looking for that kind of aid.

I recently worked with a website creating roleplaying material for an old game, and the reason I stopped was because the people doing the review and edits of the material would sometimes drastically alter and rewite a thing so that is was only barely recongizible as what originally was submitted - and they did all of this without ever asking the original writer if it was OK and without any input from them either.

Different situations, but kind of related I guess.

That is just my two bits.

[Godfather]

i think it's marvellous when critics rewrite your poems. whether or not the critter expects or wishes the rewrite to become the poem is beside the point.

a rewrite shows you what that critter considers to work and not to work rhythmically etc, and most importantly, their complete interpretation of the poem. that is invaluable if looking for opinions.

[plnelson]

Sometimes, when people are offering crits, they rewrite the original poem as a way of offering suggestions.

How do you feel about receiving that sort of feedback?

It depends. I'm in a weekly poetry group with New Hampshire poet Brent Allard, who is one of those rare poets who not only writes well, but also critiques well.

And that man has the most amazing knack for suggesting titles for my poems! I don't know how he does it but he nails it every time. And he's very modest and always tells me to feel free to use his suggestions but they're so good that I'm embarrassed to!

It's probably a good motivational technique - like if I have a good title then I have to improve my poem until it's good enough to live up to the title!

[plnelson]

Sometimes, when people are offering crits, they rewrite the original poem as a way of offering suggestions.

How do you feel about receiving that sort of feedback?

Here's a counterpoint to my last posting.

A month ago I attended a poetry workshop taught by a major US poet - you can read about it in my blog. It was a good workshop but like many it had a rule that when a poet was being critiqued he/she was not supposed to say anything about what their goals or intentions were. The theory is that a reader or editor won't have benefit of that information so the poem should stand on its own.

That's fine, but the result was that critiquers would end up going down ratholes. In one case several people in the class became convinced that one woman's poem was about a lynching. They spent 20 minutes making suggestions based on this idea before the poor poet blurted out that it was not about a lynching!

A counterpoint to my counterpoint is this: suppose I wrote poem about sex but due to my lack of skill someone got the idea in their head that it was about snorkeling and suggested ways of making a better snorkeling poem. Maybe my next poem would be about snorkeling and would be better as a result.

[Justise]

I am open for advice of all sorts and even people making suggestions on my wording or placment of my wording or other grammar mistakes. Just actually rewriting a whole poem would undermine the poet and the meaning.

Just like if I gave a paper to my english professor he would explain to me what wordings are misued and perhaps suggest different ways to fix it without rewriting and doing the work over for me. Touch subjest though I would say but I am open minded for any type of critigue like I said as long as its in a suggestive way and not a rewrite.

[plnelson]

I am open for advice of all sorts and even people making suggestions on my wording or placment of my wording or other grammar mistakes.

I don't normally critique other posters' grammar but I'm taking the above as an invitation . . .


Just like if I gave a paper to my english professor he would explain to me what wordings are misued

Just like if I gave a paper to my english professor he would explain to me what wordings are misued

... consider "as" instead of "like" when introducing a clause ("like" is a preposition). "Like" and "as" seem to confuse many people. A simple guideline is to ask yourself whether the clause that follows contains a verb ("gave, in the above example). If it does, prefer "as". "Like" can be used to compare two things, for example, you could say "A pear is like an apple, only pointier."

I am open minded for any type of critigue like I said as long as its in a suggestive way and not a rewrite.

I am open minded for any type of critigue like I said as long as its in a suggestive way and not a rewrite.

"Open minded", as it's used here, appears to be a compound modifier and compound modifiers usually take hyphens, so consider "open-minded". (N.B. to other readers: I could make a stronger case for this if he had said 'I am an open minded man' because then its use as an adjective for 'man' is unmistakable.)

We've already discussed "like".

When you say "its", above, you really mean the contraction of "it is", so it should be spelled "it's". Without the apostrophe you're using the possessive form of "it".

[plnelson]

I don't normally critique other posters' grammar but I'm taking the above as an invitation . . .

I noticed, in his profile, that the poster whose grammar I critiqued is/was a soldier so this gives me the excuse to make a further comment.

It is interesting to note that poetry has often been an important part of many martial nations - societies with strong military traditions. Poetry was a huge part of ancient Roman culture and also of Japanese Samuri society. The study of poetry was considered an essential element of Bushido - Japanese warrior culture.

Many people in America consider poetry wimpy, but nothing is farther from the truth!

Poetry is much about discipline and control. In another thread I objected to the idea of a poem being just hurricane-tossed beach debris. I think that all good art is intentional. Intention is what separates art from accident. Artists work their will upon their medium.

Because a poem is so small and compact every word, every punctuation mark, every typographical element must be chosen consciously and deliberately because every detail counts. A soldier who doesn't do his job right may be no big deal in a whole division, but a soldier who doesn't do his job right in a squad or a platoon can endanger the mission or result in the wrong people getting hurt.

A soldier has to be able to disassemble his weapon and reasemble it, name all its parts, and keep them in precise working condition so he can rely on it and use it to enforce his will. It's the same thing with language. To paraphrase: "These are your words. There are many like them, but these are yours".

Poets go forth armed with words. Only by completely mastering the language can we make it do our bidding.

[Unique]

I think you and plnelson are barking at different branches of the same tree.

Here's why:

Poets go forth armed with words. Only by completely mastering the language can we make it do our bidding.

The discipline is not in the poetry nor of the poetry. The discipline is in the mastery of the language.

You have mastered the use of words so it seems easier than it would to someone who hasn't mastered the discipline to create with words.

Make sense?

[NeuroFizz]

One person's hurricane is another person's storm of creativity.

One person's discipline is another person's straightjacket.

And, I agree with Unique (don't faint, darlin').

[plnelson]

And I loved that idea...the hurricane tossed one. I have never spent more than 2 minutes writing a poem...never. There is 0 discipline in me, both as a poet and as a writer. Each of us tie our shoes differently. I have never once been in control. I love writing poetry because it is not a discipline.

Do you apply that to other things in your life?

That approach is similar to waiting on an island for a message to wash ashore in a bottle.

1. You may have to wait along time between messages.

2. You have no way to improve the quality of your messages.

[NeuroFizz]

Do you apply that to other things in your life?

That approach is similar to waiting on an island for a message to wash ashore in a bottle.

1. You may have to wait along time between messages.

2. You have no way to improve the quality of your messages.
This is probably how it would be for you, and for me. But not everyone's brain works the same. This is Kevin's approach to writing poetry, and it works for him (some of his work is stunning). I doubt he takes this same approach to everything in his life, and asking so in the way you did (about other aspects of his life) makes your comments a little too pointed and personal for my taste.

I have to admit to immediate scribblings on occasion, and to deliberate constructions on others. I can see no consistent relationship between the quality of my poems in these two extremes (I produce stinkers in both, and I'm really pleased with others in both). In both cases, though, I carefully reconsider what is written based on feedback received here.

[Justise]

I felt compelled to point this out
I societies with strong military traditions. Poetry was a huge part of ancient Roman culture and also of Japanese Samuri society.
I think you meant Samurai
A soldier has to be able to disassemble his weapon and reasemble it, name all its parts, and keep them in precise working condition so he can rely on it and use it to enforce his will. It's the same thing with language.
I think you ment reassemble
I noticed, in his profile, that the poster whose grammar I critiqued is/was a soldier so this gives me the excuse to make a further comment.
It is interesting to note that poetry has often been an important part of many martial nations - societies with strong military traditions. Poetry was a huge part of ancient Roman culture and also of Japanese Samuri society. The study of poetry was considered an essential element of Bushido - Japanese warrior culture.
Many people in America consider poetry wimpy, but nothing is farther from the truth!
Poetry is much about discipline and control. In another thread I objected to the idea of a poem being just hurricane-tossed beach debris. I think that all good art is intentional. Intention is what separates art from accident. Artists work their will upon their medium.
Because a poem is so small and compact every word, every punctuation mark, every typographical element must be chosen consciously and deliberately because every detail counts. A soldier who doesn't do his job right may be no big deal in a whole division, but a soldier who doesn't do his job right in a squad or a platoon can endanger the mission or result in the wrong people getting hurt.
A soldier has to be able to disassemble his weapon and reasemble it, name all its parts, and keep them in precise working condition so he can rely on it and use it to enforce his will. It's the same thing with language. To paraphrase: "These are your words. There are many like them, but these are yours".
Poets go forth armed with words. Only by completely mastering the language can we make it do our bidding.

I don't know if I should feel singled out on these forums or not. I posted a poem that I did indeed vomit out(spur of the moment type thing) and I get slammed.

It was something that came quick to my head and wanted to share, sorry it was not up to your standards. So I write this looking upon your throne. Soon after another forum member decided to make a mockery of me. In the novel writing forums I asked for some advice on my book/novel I am writing and I get slammed there just because someone is tired of hearing about war and Iraq and some other rubbish. Oh and I can not forget the guy who was mad due to someone peeing in his cheerios, hell my second post, I believe in the poetry section I asked about copyrights and I got slammed.


You talk about me being a soldier and discipline and control being a part of poetry. However being a soldier involves more than just that, being there for your brothers, honesty, integrity, willingness to teach, the YEARNING TO LEARN and willingness to pull the trigger.


I am wanting and willing to learn but not willing to sit by an be singled out or be mocked.. So with that duly noted do you not think that writers of all sorts should be there for one another and not make someone feel singled out just because you feel he or she is not as educated as you or as creative as you? Is that not what this whole forum board is for?
Is there not a thin line between critiquing and singling someone out? Sure I am not as smart as all of you or creative as all of you, if I was I would not even be replying or reacting to the posts or the treatment I am receiving from a few, but I do know hostile intentions when I see them.


I am new to the world of creative writing and as I progress in my book, I find myself studying more and more for ways to improve myself. Poems I do to learn more about myself and express myself. So with my rant over with now I guess it is time for me to lay down my pen, I obviously do not have the education or the creativity and knowledge to play with the big words just big guns I guess.
Good luck to you all in your current and future endeavors in life.
Goodbye, JT

Poets go forth armed with words. Only by completely mastering the language can we make it do our bidding.
Poets can go forth with words because the ones willing to die and pull the trigger gave them the freedom to do so. Only by us putting our lives on the line poets are able to master the language to do their bidding. It is also known that many freedoms have been given to people of all sorts through the willingness of others to sacrifice, and yes even the arrogant ones share the same freedoms. JT

[Norman D Gutter]

Ah, the difficulty of Internet poetry forums--or maybe any gathering, Internet or real life, where people of different minds come together.

In our associations, we tend to gravitate to like-minded people. Purposely seeking out and frequenting those who disagree with you is difficult, especially in a critique environment. We must go out of our way, make an incredible effort, to stay among those who are not of the same mind. Diversity of close groups is not the norm.

It would appear my critique of your poem contributed to your decision, so I apologize. Your decision to stay or leave is hopefully based on something more than that. I am not around all that much, so hope you will stay.

NDG

[Norman D Gutter]

Well, after writing my last post, I went to your thread in Novel Writing (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79123), and read every word. I then went back and re-read the poetry thread and all comments.

I don't know if I should feel singled out on these forums or not. I posted a poem that I did indeed vomit out(spur of the moment type thing) and I get slammed.
Your poem was critiqued by Argo and me, and the method you used to write it was called into question. Neither of us "slammed" you, i.e. neither of us criticized you as a poet. We separated the poem from the poet. It's unfortunate that others didn't join in the thread, for a number of poets here write seat of the pants as you did, and would have found nothing to fault.

It was something that came quick to my head and wanted to share, sorry it was not up to your standards. So I write this looking upon your throne.
No one is on a throne here. You posted it in a critique forum, thus asking for critique. Critique sometimes finds things to praise, sometimes things to fault. The two critiquers found things to fault. Argo also found things to praise. Post another poem, and it may be completely opposite.

Soon after another forum member decided to make a mockery of me.
Yes, that member critiqued your grammar. He is a new member, and may not be aware that the site management has established a policy that we are not to critique spelling and grammar in post, critiques, and responses not intended for publication. I think one of the supermods once said, "We will not be the spelling/grammar police." It seems we need to better educate new members.

In the novel writing forums I asked for some advice on my book/novel I am writing and I get slammed there just because someone is tired of hearing about war and Iraq and some other rubbish.
You need to read that thread again, and do the math. Twenty people gave you advice according to the question you asked. One person got off-topic, and let his political frustrations lead to his making inappropriate comments. But, 13 people criticized him, most harshly, and not one person supported him. So you got a 20:1 ratio of good responses to bad responses. Let me ask you: If 20:1 is not good enough for you, what is?

...hell my second post, I believe in the poetry section I asked about copyrights and I got slammed.
I couldn't find a slam in that thread. The thing about "being conceited enough" to think someone would steal your work? Is that what you are considering a slam? If so, you have a very, very low slam tolerence.

JT, as you continue in your writing life, one of the things you will have to embrace is criticism of your work. Some day, should your book be published, a professional reviewer will criticise your book, or some reader will think he/she wasted the money. Before that, after your book is accepted but before it's published, content editors and line editors at the publishing house will pick your work apart, asking for change upon change upon change. Before that, your work will be rejected by editors, editorial assistants, and agents--sometimes with critical comments but probably with nothing more than a form letter. Before that, if you were serious about your writing, you would have joined a critique group, whose purpose will be to help you produce a better work (a novel or a poem). To do that, they must find the flaws and highlight/reinforce the good. Before that, after your words found their way to paper or screen in a rush of creativity, you yourself will have re-read them and edited them countless times, each time hopefully improving the quality. So criticism, including fault finding, exists throughout the writing and publishing process. You can't escape it, and it won't all be good.

You haven't asked for advice in this matter, and possibly you won't even be around to read this, though I hope you are. The best possible thing you can do right now for your writing life is to allow the creative juices to flow, get as many words on paper as you can, edit them yourself, submit them for critique, and in the process build up a thick skin, a very thick skin, against the negative comments that must come and which serve only to improve you if you will embrace them.

Thank you for your service to this country. I never served, but am in awe of those who do. As a five year expatriate resident of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, kicked out of the latter in 1990 by Sadaam Hussein, I believe that what you did over there, and others are still doing, is for the benefit of both this nation and of those unfortunate people.

Best Regards,
NDG

[JRH]

Justise,

Part of writing in any Genre is learning to take criticism with a grain of salt and developing a thick skin. If you want only praise, send your stuff to Poetry.com (They'll praise you forever - as long as you pay them).

If on the other hand, you want to progress and improve as a Poet, pay attention to the nature of the criticisms that are being made, (not the specifics, but the focus of what they are finding flaws in), make judgements as to whether they're right or wrong and dismiss them or act on their suggestion accordingly, but don't waste time fighting them, over whether you're right or they are. That won't do anything toward improving your writing.

Then, most importantly, READ, READ, and READ some more. Evaluate what you read. Decide what you like and why, and then try to learn from what those writers have done in gaining your admiration, (and I'm not saying COPY them - I'm saying utilize and apply the techiniques you see them use successfully in crafting your own works).

Writing in any genre is a craft and it takes time to learn.

If you want to quit - go ahead - but be aware that the responsibility will be yours, not those who criticised or tried to advise you, And, if you REALLY want to write (particularly quality Poetry) toughen up and recognize that criticism is part of the game and your toughest critic should be yourself.

Write On,

Jim Hoye, (JRH)

[Cleveland W. Gibson]

I think there is more than one answer to this . But cutting to the quick. I find it useful to give general feedback and give one example.(with a very heavy emphasis ,respectfully IN MY OPINION and take it or leave it) of a word or line that could be changed. After all if it's one word who will do the crying? Not me.Not the writer ,I hope.
I'm a creative writer who writes poetry in between short stories or novels. I often get my poems lightly edited because the best trick is to edit well before posting.Then anything said about our poem has got to be worth noting.Good or bad.

[plnelson]

[quote=Justise;1694769]I felt compelled to point this out
I don't know if I should feel singled out on these forums or not. [quote]

I would remind you of your original comment (which I did quote at the beginning of my remarks):

"I am open for advice of all sorts and even people making suggestions on my wording or placment of my wording or other grammar mistakes."

... these remarks were the basis of my comments.

As far as I'm concerned, a forum like this is the same as a poetry group, and people who attend poetry groups regularly are used to getting critiqued on every detail. Unlike you, they do not take it personally. In many of the groups I've been in we all go out for drinks or dinner afterwards.

[plnelson]

Yes, that member critiqued your grammar. He is a new member, and may not be aware that the site management has established a policy that we are not to critique spelling and grammar in post, critiques, and responses not intended for publication. I think one of the supermods once said, "We will not be the spelling/grammar police." It seems we need to better educate new members.

No, I actually AM aware of the policy but in this case he indicated in his comments that he was receptive to grammar critiques.

I certainly HOPE that posters have a right to ask for such critiques, and thus override the policy, if they are receptive to them, because I DO want to be critiqued on my grammar, spelling, word usage, etc - just don't waste your time with obvious typo's such as when I substitute "hte" for "the", for instance, and try to use some judgement about whether I'm deliberately breaking grammatical rules to speak in a vernacular.

[Norman D Gutter]

Peter:

I'm glad to see I was wrong about your understanding of that rule. However, I believe the context of Justise's post was that he was inviting critique of his wording, word placement, and grammar in his poems, not in his posts that are not intended for publication.

But, 'tweech hizzone. Justise appears unready for an honest critique group. I hope he finds what he needs at another on-line forum or in real life.

NDG

[poetinahat]

Just wanted to mention a couple of things here.

First, thanks to everyone for participating in the discussion.

Second, I don't recall a policy forbidding comments on spelling/grammar/punctuation. It may be that I've forgotten it. Personally, I'm grateful to have such mistakes pointed out, and I do care about spelling and grammar. My best suggestion would be that, if you want a particular type of response -- e.g. no comments on spelling -- say so up front.

Third, even as we thank our soldiers for their efforts, we must wholeheartedly thank our critics. Without them, our discussion here is pretty empty. Critiques are gifts, not obligations, and we're fortunate to have people here who care to read and respond to our poems. The poet isn't obliged to follow every bit of the critic's advice, but when that advice is given freely, as it is here, the poet would do well to thank the critic for taking the time.

What's more, I think that critiquing is an essential tool to improving as a poet. The more we read and respond to poems, the more we're able to understand what we're trying to articulate, whether that's conscious or not.

Without critiques, I'd dare to say there'd soon be no poetry here.

[jst5150]

First, it's probably important to note that submitting your poem to be critiqued here is going to be a mixed bag. Either you're going to get a bevy of critiques with a wide range of offerings. Or, you'll get nothing. There's no policy or hard guidelines as to what should be offered. Other than "be kind to your fellow writers," it's a free for all. I've always set my expectations accordingly.

Admittedly, there are better critiques than others. I've always found the best critiques are those that offer something that I wasn't expecting. There's a short list of people I know here that usually do that. Admittedly, I, like you, also expect to be fawned over occasionally. I'll post something I'm very proud of -- and get no critique. Or get a scathing critique. It reminds me that editors are editors, not buddies. Editors exist to make your writing better. Editors exist to better keep you on task. I'm not sure they there isn't an author or poet alive who doesn't trust his/her editor implicitly. However, that's a gained trust. So, it always makes me giggle a bit when people get rankled by a scathing or poor critique here. It always makes me say, "What wer you expecting?"

Some people are very good editors and some are very bad. Over time, once you've discerned what is successful in your writing and what is not, you figure out what is succesful in an editor and what is not. At that point, you can nod and smile accordingly when the feedback you get doesn't fit. In any case, it's always important -- especially in an open forum like this -- to remain open minded and have few, if any, expectations on feedback. I would't tell you to lower your expectations. I would only say don't have any.

That said, I think suggestions are helpful. But I'm always cautious about where they come from. Mark Wahlberg once said something about his fitness and health. He said, "I won't take advice from someone claiming to be a fitness guru but who's not in at least as good a shape as I am." And when people offer rewrites -- and you don't know where they come from -- well, it's understandable to get a bit rankled if you're tied to the work. However, if someone just rewrites entire passages, that's a a party foul. That means the person doing the rewrite isn't writing enough and should be doing more.

Finally, I always say "thank you" to whomever posts a critique of my work, regardless of the content. I may offer explanation of my work or the process (which I think can be helpful), but I'll ALWAYS say "thank you." Why?

When you post in the "critique" area, you're saying, "Please."

jt

[Susannah Rourke]

I have only just started writing poetry seriously in the last 8 months and it has helped tremendously to have friends and family critique my poetry and help me with versing, rhythm and subjects. Of course it really tickles in all the right places when a friend gushes 'ooh i love it'...but we all need the truth don't we? When i receive constructive criticism I like to think about it in depth at a later point on my own and decide whether i want to use the information and change my ways or continue on my own path of expression, after all...that is why we write!

Write until your pen runs dry, but only if the words will help.

[plnelson]

I have only just started writing poetry seriously in the last 8 months and it has helped tremendously to have friends and family critique my poetry and help me with versing, rhythm and subjects. Of course it really tickles in all the right places when a friend gushes 'ooh i love it'...but we all need the truth don't we? When i receive constructive criticism I like to think about it in depth at a later point on my own and decide whether i want to use the information and change my ways or continue on my own path of expression, after all...that is why we write!

There is no substitute for regular critiquing. Every poet should find a way to get some. I'm very lucky to be in a weekly poetry group where we bring in a poem every week to read and get critiqued. Many of us are published and have been writing for years and the quality of the critiquing (and the poetry) is very good, but we always welcome newcomers. The group is friendly and we've gotten to know each other so no one takes the critiques very hard or personally.

[Unique]

I'm glad critiquing works for you. I don't much care for it myself. Poetry isn't like fiction.

Play with it too much and it isn't yours anymore. Some critique can be helpful. Other times it can be lethal.

I prefer to choose my weapons wisely.

[plnelson]

I'm glad critiquing works for you. I don't much care for it myself. Poetry isn't like fiction.
How is poetry not like fiction? Many of my poems are fiction. And most of history's greatest epic poems were works of fiction. And if poetry is not like fiction, do you think it's more like non-fiction?

Anyway, there's a very thin line between poetry and prose, especially these days. I've often been struck by how many of the poems read on public radio's "Writer's Almanac" read exactly like prose - exactly like the opening paragraph of a short story or memoir. And one of my favorite poetic forms is the prose poem.

All creative writing involves the use of literary craft to express an idea, communicate an emotion or state of mind, describe a scene, or tell a story. Modern or post-modern short-story writing is so non-linear and employs so many unconventional compositional and typographical practices I think you'd be hard-pressed to articulate strong differences with poetry.

Play with it too much and it isn't yours anymore.
As long as the final editing decisions are yours I don't see how you would lose control or ownership of it.

But I suppose it depends on what your goals are. Many poets are interested in doing public readings or getting published, so it helps to know how your poem is received or understood by others. Also, other poets might see opportunities to improve a poem and thus enhance the skills of the poet being critiqued. I've become a much better poet through that process.

[Unique]

Many of my poems are fiction.

None of my poems are fiction.

Poetry
My gift of blood
without the need
for leeches.

I've become a much better poet through that process.

I would quit writing poetry altogether. There are very few people who see my deepest work.

[Susannah Rourke]

There is no substitute for regular critiquing. Every poet should find a way to get some. I'm very lucky to be in a weekly poetry group where we bring in a poem every week to read and get critiqued. Many of us are published and have been writing for years and the quality of the critiquing (and the poetry) is very good, but we always welcome newcomers. The group is friendly and we've gotten to know each other so no one takes the critiques very hard or personally.


Hey, that sounds great - if i can't find one, I might think about trying to start one! Thanks Peter.

Susie

[poetinahat]

Susannah, we're in the same neck of the woods. Maybe we can get a Sydney group going?

[kdnxdr]

I just re-read and got caught up to date on this thread.

First, I want to say how much I appreciate AW and everyone in the poetry forum.

And, thank you all for reading and responding (with the good, bad and ugly). I usually don't rewrite or change much after I've posted in the forum. I copy all the poem and all the comments and put it in a file on my computer. Later, as I'm "in the mood" to edit, I change things in my file.

Again, thanks to all that contribute to my process.

kid

[susanabra]

I think it is disrespectful to rewrite an entire poem. I do have a tendency to rework lines or groups of words, by way of illustration of something I've said about the poem. I am often obscure and telegraphic when I write, but an obscure and telegraphic critique is useless.
I don't mind if someone rewrites something of mine, but I usually use rewrites more as an indication of how the critter received my poem, than as something I can use directly.

[Ever]

Hmm...sometimes a rewrite can be a very thoughtfully done crit -- I've received rewrites as crits on other forums and NEVEr felt it was 'I can do better' type thing, the fact that someone has taken the time to sit down and sift through my work to show by way of example how I could handle my wording differently is actually quite flattering that they saw so much in it to undertake the rewrite to begin with --- I wouldn't say it was pointless and would never be used - that would be arrogant, Oh no, you've written it different, you just killed my poem -- after all, all poetry is is a sophisticated rewrite of something we've stated or done, felt or seen, experienced any way. If YOU were inspired to write a poem, you've rewritten and reformulated that inspiration and a crit is a crit, offered as assistence and to slap the critter in the face because they find it easier to 'show not tell' (the mantra, right?) - is unbelievably pretentious amd, well, as I said, arrogant beyond the footfalls of common decency. I know if I were to rewrite someone else's work by way of crit, I'd do it with the utmost respect, and because I think the piecve is worth my time -- no rewrite is ever a slap-dash, 5 minute work out - c'mon, it's someone understanding your writing to the level that they're inside it! Isn't that why you wrote it? Or did you want to write something to put yourself on some eschelon nigher heaven than the rest of us mere mortals?

[poetinahat]

I know if I were to rewrite someone else's work by way of crit, I'd do it with the utmost respect, and because I think the piecve is worth my time -- no rewrite is ever a slap-dash, 5 minute work out - c'mon, it's someone understanding your writing to the level that they're inside it! Isn't that why you wrote it? Or did you want to write something to put yourself on some eschelon nigher heaven than the rest of us mere mortals?
The thread was started precisely because each of us has different experiences and different views on this matter.

I'm sure there's a way to argue your point without casting aspersions at those who don't agree with you.

[Albedo of Zero]

Rewrites are fairly impotent if you think about it.

Say a poet writes about his experience..."a red cat skulked away"

A crit doesn't know that poet's true experience...just a glimpse, and he rewrites..."a red cat skulked away" ..perhaps because the meter seemed better to the crit (i give it an 8; i can dance to it)

truly it blew the whole picture in the poet's mind and possibly made a totally different poem

IMO, i don't care for rewrites (heck, you should read me holler at people for rewriting my limerick lines in the game)


Anyway...honest suggestions for possible word change... pointing out rhythm, beat and meter, and possible breaks ....that's what i like

[Ever]

...casting aspersions at those who don't agree with you...

That isn't what I was doing...sorry if that's the way it came across. Questions were rhetorical - if anyone felt specifically targetted by those, I'd like to remind them that I've not long been a member of this forum for enough time and don't know much of others or anyone good enough to judge them for target individually. Sorry again.

[Dichroic]

Rewrites are fairly impotent if you think about it.

Say a poet writes about his experience..."a red cat skulked away"

A crit doesn't know that poet's true experience...just a glimpse, and he rewrites..."a red cat skulked away" ..perhaps because the meter seemed better to the crit (i give it an 8; i can dance to it)



I'm not actually convinced true experience is all that crucial. Over and over when I've written something based on real-life experience, I've found that to make a better poem (sometimes in terms of rhyme or meter, sure, but often in terms of the actual bigger point I was making) I need to change things a bit from what actually happened.

After all, if all reality was already art, we wouldn't need to write poetry in the first place.

[Priene]

That isn't what I was doing...sorry if that's the way it came across. Questions were rhetorical - if anyone felt specifically targetted by those, I'd like to remind them that I've not long been a member of this forum for enough time and don't know much of others or anyone good enough to judge them for target individually. Sorry again.

I wouldn't say it was pointless and would never be used - that would be arrogant, Oh no, you've written it different, you just killed my poem -- after all, all poetry is is a sophisticated rewrite of something we've stated or done, felt or seen, experienced any way. If YOU were inspired to write a poem, you've rewritten and reformulated that inspiration and a crit is a crit, offered as assistence and to slap the critter in the face because they find it easier to 'show not tell' (the mantra, right?) - is unbelievably pretentious amd, well, as I said, arrogant beyond the footfalls of common decency. I know if I were to rewrite someone else's work by way of crit, I'd do it with the utmost respect, and because I think the piecve is worth my time -- no rewrite is ever a slap-dash, 5 minute work out - c'mon, it's someone understanding your writing to the level that they're inside it! Isn't that why you wrote it? Or did you want to write something to put yourself on some eschelon nigher heaven than the rest of us mere mortals?For someone trying not to offend, you've put in a whole load of derogatory remarks.

[Ever]

o -- is it now derogatory to express my opinion? Ok, submit arrogant with 'not very modest' or 'not so nice' -- submit 'pretentious' with 'slightly haughty'. Sheesh -- I don't see anyone else getting the grating for using less than 'fairy sparkle dust' in their posts.

For example -- saying that the time and effort someone puts into their well meant critique is worthless, impotent, even..maybe that's ok though -- 'cause it's the general concensus in this thread - and saying otherwise is to cast aspertions and insult -- nvm -- just disregard my posts if you disagree. Again, 3rd time now, my apologies...should I delete/remove my post, would that be more to appease? I didn't mean to aggrivate a situation or cause insult, I thought this was a discussion, and having appologised for any offense caused unintentionally, I thought that would be enough to not be cointinually singled out.

BTW -- I wasn't explicitly trying not to offend, I siomply didnt mean to offend.

[Priene]

Well, I personally think phrases like unbelievably pretentious and arrogant beyond the footfalls of common decency are derogatory. Beyond that, you're slapping your interpretation of motivation on people with points of view contrary to yours. There are good reasons not to like rewriting as a critique - I've seen some hair-raising examples of it recently - and they have nothing to do with highers echelons or arrogance. It's a bad critique technique because it doesn't explain what's wrong with the rewritten lines, and it has been abused in the past in ways that would have tried my patience, had anyone done something similar on one of my poems.

I wasn't explicitly trying not to offend

I know. Welcome to AW Critique.

[Ever]

I see -- I still don't get what is wrong with my wording in my post though - as a non-native speaker of English I would say it exactly so in Belgium, Nederland, and even Germany, without incident. I never said anyone in particular was arrogant, just like it is said that someone thinks a crit by rewrite is redundant, I THINK it is arrogant to dismiss something on the terms that you disagree with the method. Maybe someone could rewrite my original post by way of example? I would certainly learn from that! :D

I understand your points made though...and I can understand, perhaps, imagine how it would be misused/abused for personal gain or to cause upset and insult -- guess I just don't expect that from mature, intelligent people, yet if it has been so, it can be so...and I can see that some may not agree with likened attempts because of a sour taste from other individuals that have done it for such purpose...I just wont offer critique that way while I'm here, unless requested.

[Dichroic]

I see -- I still don't get what is wrong with my wording in my post though - as a non-native speaker of English I would say it exactly so in Belgium, Nederland, and even Germany, without incident.

Not a reliable test, btw. It is possible to literally translate something that is perfectly polite in Dutch (and presumably Flemish) and come up with something that sounds abrupt and verging on rude in English. It's part cultural and part the bits that just don't translate. (As an American expat in the Netherlands, I have the same problem in reverse, constantly reminding myself that the people talking to me are not being rude, in their frame of reference. And I'm sure I'm often unintentionally rude myself, through simple cluelessness.)

Actually I disagree with Priene, as it happens. I am in favor of rewrites, precisely because I think that often they are the fastest, easiest way to illustrate a point. Very often, I find that when someone rewrites part or all of a poem of mine, I won't use what they wrote because they misunderstood what I was aiming for - *but* the rewrite helps me understand what they see that's wrong with my poem. Just in general I find that critters are usually better at seeing what's wrong that how to fix it. WHich is still an enormous help. And it's not always true; there are times when someone comes up with a perfect suggestion.

[ajc]

Personally, I am thankful for anything. Even saying why you hate it is something and much better than being ignored. There is nothing worse than being ignored. I would take a rewrite, a suggestion, a "this is trash", a "I don't get this, you are a really bad poet" to being ignored.

[KTC]

Ever...we all have opinions. I find that the poets have the most passionate opinions of all AW. You might get a few bites at times...but they're almost always accidental. Just don't forget to clean the wound and move on. Poets are simply passionate people.

[KTC]

And to clarify, by move on I do not mean leave...I just mean move past the disagreement and enjoy the poetry forum until the next outburst. There will be a next outburst. There always is.

[Albedo of Zero]

Rewrite this
and you will find
a blacker hole
within my mind
..a hole that sucked
all words away
so I can't use them
anyway.

(sometimes I think I must've been related to Dr. Seuss or Shel Silverstein in some other life)

[Dichroic]

Personally, I am thankful for anything. Even saying why you hate it is something and much better than being ignored. There is nothing worse than being ignored. I would take a rewrite, a suggestion, a "this is trash", a "I don't get this, you are a really bad poet" to being ignored.

Me too. Emphatically.

[Feiss]

And to clarify, by move on I do not mean leave...I just mean move past the disagreement and enjoy the poetry forum until the next outburst. There will be a next outburst. There always is.

I find this offensive.

[Izz]

I find this offensive.*bites Feiss and moves on, whistling innocently*

[KTC]

I find this offensive.

whatever.

[Jobe]

Personally when I come looking for a critique I am doing it because I want an objective analysis of my poem. In my experiences where people have rewritten my poems (and observations of other's being rewritten) the critic universally loses their objectivity and forces the poem into their own subjective framework. In my opinion this is not how a good critique ought to work. A good critique requires the critic to stand back from the poem at a neutral vantage point and give the various pros and cons; this is what works and what doesn't etc.

[Steppe]

I will rewrite part of a poem for someone that i think is new to poetry, but make sure I offer it as a suggestion only. I have rewritten short poems intirely on accasion but lately prefer not to. I have enough problems with my own.

I feel that a poet can learn as much from a partial rewrite as from a full one, or can get the idea you're suggesting. Often a line or two is all that's needed. I prefer other poets, if they feel they have to, rewriting only parts of mine. Give me an example, That will work.

[Dichroic]

Personally when I come looking for a critique I am doing it because I want an objective analysis of my poem. In my experiences where people have rewritten my poems (and observations of other's being rewritten) the critic universally loses their objectivity and forces the poem into their own subjective framework. In my opinion this is not how a good critique ought to work. A good critique requires the critic to stand back from the poem at a neutral vantage point and give the various pros and cons; this is what works and what doesn't etc.

Is there really such a thing as an objective critique?

[Priene]

Is there really such a thing as an objective critique?

In practice, probably not. But as an aspiration, certainly. You should strive to be objective, and if you can't manage it for a particular poem, it might be best to skip the critique this time.

[Jobe]

In practice, probably not. But as an aspiration, certainly. You should strive to be objective, and if you can't manage it for a particular poem, it might be best to skip the critique this time.

Exactly. That aspiration for objectivity is what differentiates criticism from opinion.

[Greenify13]

Whoa, walking in on this thread is like walking into a tension filled room after a heated argument or "discussion". :D
I bet someone could write an awesome poem based on their tension and personal feelings that arose during this time.
In my opinion, which only holds great worth to myself personally and the outcome of my poetry, critiques and opinions are one thing but if you were to rewrite a "Bobby Frost" it would no longer be his work. Though most don't mean harm, if someone were to rewrite one of my poems I would probably feel insulted. There is nothing objective, in any sense, when it comes to rewriting or altering another persons work in such degrees that it loses the original poet. I also think there is a big difference between rewriting a piece and offering suggestions/replacements for certain words to help boost a poem, or altering the feel. One reason I don't try to help out with certain types of poetry, I'm not objective enough, it's not my style or usual route, it would be cruel for me to give a critique in those cases. I might offer personal feelings of the piece, but that's as far as I'd take it...
I think it also comes down to the confidence of the original author, certainly this is not often an issue, as someone above suggested :D, we are quite opinionated. If someone is not confident enough with their piece or their writing, then a blatant rewrite will have them second-guessing it on a level that may not have been intended.
Bah, I think I've lost myself in my own writing.

[kdnxdr]

Here's a thread that Poetinahat started and it hasn't been touched in a little while. I want to bump it up for all the new folks on board, especially for those that venture out to have a poem critiqued.

This thread has 100 posts to date and if you take the time to read through them all, it gives some good insight into this valid question.

[TurtleFarmer]

I'm always up for suggestions re: a given line or phrase. I doubt I'd be pleased to see the entire thing re-done.

My status as Beginning Poetry Student means that when I post for critique, I really do want critique, and "make it better" doesn't help much.

[TurtleFarmer]

:D
I bet someone could write an awesome poem based on their tension and personal feelings that arose during this time.



Being Good

To make a bad poem good
Few could
To make a good poem bad
Is sad
So I’ll try
Before I die
To make bad a bad poem
That'll show 'em!

(No claim to awesomeness stated or implied...)

[Bartholomew]

Being Good

To make a bad poem good
Few could
To make a good poem bad
Is sad
So I’ll try
Before I die
To make bad a bad poem
That'll show 'em!

(No claim to awesomeness stated or implied...)

Victory is yours! I award you: One Internet.

[TurtleFarmer]

Thank you so much. I've wanted an Internet ever since I was a little girl. BTW, do you think it will make me look fat?

[kborsden]

Thank you so much. I've wanted an Internet ever since I was a little girl. BTW, do you think it will make me look fat?

Just your bum

[kborsden]

If I rewrite a part of a poem - it is usually just that, an individual line or stanza. In doing so, I will first address what, in my opinion, is wrong with the line and what approach by device or method could be used to improve or strengthen the concept -- then, I will do an illustrative example to show what I have told.

'show not tell' (the mantra, right?)

We have a mantra here - show, don't tell. Does this count for crits as well? It should.

Then there are times that I do a few line edits and address each individual line in the process with commentary and reasoning.

Other times where I may not change words, but restructure lines and re-punctuate to illustrate how a slight change in architecture can influence the rhythm.

I may offer a crit that employs all of these - this can be very time consuming and draining. If I didn't have good intentions, or absolutely want to assist why would I go to these lengths?

Sometimes, it's about communication and not just dropping a crit without elaboration of your opinion and thoughts. Other times it's about maturity - if you can deliver a mature crit and if you are mature enough to receive one, taking on board that it is just the opinion of someone and that even a rewrite is valid in that it shows how something can be done differently. Different approaches aid the understanding of voice - different voices hep us to find and develop our own.

[Diana_Rajchel]

I think in all writing there's a huge difference between rewriting and critique. I consider rewriting a major overstep. I try hard not to do it. A good editor also does NOT rewrite - that's the writer's job. An editor may tighten language and correct grammar, all with an eye to the overall piece. But feedback/crit is also not editing. It's feedback.

To me, that's about "here's the message I received from your work as it is right now." Based on the message received, that person may offer some suggestions - but incorporating those suggestions should be entirely up to the original author. IMO.

[TurtleFarmer]

but incorporating those suggestions should be entirely up to the original author. IMO.

I can't help but feel that any poet/author who would incorporate suggestions that did not resonate with him might not be serious about his craft. I love getting suggestions that make me say Yes! Yes!, because it's like someone cleared away a bit of the stone and found the form I was chipping away at, but if they don't and I put them in, it isn't my poem anymore.

In my ever-humbler opinion, that is.

[B.D. Eyeslie]

As kind of a non poet tiptoeing around a poet's page (sometimes with my lumberjack boots on), I have often wondered: have their been any well known poets who seem to do things technincally wrong, yet their poems work well anyway?

[kborsden]

have their been any well known poets who seem to do things technincally wrong, yet their poems work well anyway?

There have been many poets break rules with great success - the point is, if you don't know what rules you're breaking, how do you know the effect or reason behind it?

As far as poetry goes - I don't think many crits, or in any case, those directed at free verse actually incorporate ideology with regards to the technical side of things, it's more about how things flow or sound, the directness of imagery, consistency of register and voice, clarity of phrase, strength of metaphor and completeness of concept and method of stringing words together in whichever way is the most pertinent or powerful - when discussing metric poetry or rhyme then it's a different thing altogether; these same concepts come into play but also the rules of whichever form is used, meter and metric nuance, metric feet, linguistic finesse and stylisation, conceptual consistency and intricacy of rhyme and wordplay. The rules relating to metric poetry can be broken or bent, but as I said, if you don't know what they are - you won't know which ones to break/bend where for the best effect. Knowledge is power and no poet is more empowered than the one who knows the basics of form and regulation regarding to meter -- even if that poet decides to write free verse. Such understanding can really lift any poetry above the competition.

[B.D. Eyeslie]

Excellent answer, thanks. I ask because I remember reading an article some time ago about a poet of sonnets who flagrantly broke many of the rules of meter and ryme yet was considered great. And yes his name escapes me as does the web site where I read about it.

[Blarg]

Nonsense poetry often delights in scrambling things up to amusing effect.

[kborsden]

Nonsense poetry often delights in scrambling things up to amusing effect.

:D - absolutely - ;)

[flea23]

I experiment - with words. If it has a type of rhythm, if it makes sense, if it speaks to someone - I consider it a success.

I'd rather write a bad poem and have it understood, than to write what some would consider a great poem and no one understood it.

[Blarg]

Ditto.

[kdnxdr]

If you correct my 'children', I'll respect you but, if you punish my 'children', I'll defend them to the death!