Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[Galoot]

Of course, I'm the logorrheic loonball who insists on writing 932-word posts.FWIW, I'm the nerd who counted 'em.

[reph]

Oh my god. reph's gonna kill you.
I believe that post would be better punctuated as follows:

Oh! My god reph's gonna kill you.

[James D. Macdonald]

Finally, in frustration, I took a pair of scissors and cut apart the first draft of a 25-page paper that had been giving me nightmares. I cut it into paragraphs, and then laid the resulting slips of paper out on a table, shuffling them around until I had an order that made sense. I had to re-write a few of those paragraphs, and break some of them in two; I also realized what I was missing and thus needed to write from scratch so I could fill in the holes.


Congratulatoins! You independently re-invented cut and paste. That's where the terms that we see in wordprocessors come from: Authors used to do it manually with scissors and pastepots. (See, again, The Unstrung Harp (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0151004358/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/). What do you mean you haven't already gotten your copy!)

Even when you're using a wordprocessor, physically moving sheets of paper around can be very useful. On one memorable occasion I had parts of a novel all over the floor in the living room, dining room, and kitchen.


==============

A long time ago, back at the beginning of the thread, I suggested taking entire chapters and taping them to the wall side by side -- then going to the other side of the room and looking at the patterns the typing made, to make sure you don't have too much dialog or too much description.

Be visual. The arts are all related.

[jdparadise]

I know I'm not the only one by far who plots with notecards like this, but it's already been incredibly helpful.
...

When I sat down and typed out the contents of all the cards, in order, I had my plot outline.


Hah! That's exactly how I got to my own outline. Something about notecards works very well for me... but when it goes to a paper outline, it mutates even further, because the things that made perfect sense to me on the notecards don't link up nicely... or they're just plain silly... or any of a dozen different things. Linking the scenes, so they flow from one into another in a logical fashion, has always been a problem for me when using notecards. I have -this- discrete scene, and -that- one... and they need to go together somehow. In my head when I'm notecarding I'm thinking "yeah, I'll get there somehow," but when it comes time to make it into an outline (particularly the detailed outlines I do) "somehow" doesn't quite pay the bills...


The book lacks heart, but I finished the bloody thing.

That's showing it! Congrats on finishing! Finishing--even if it's a suck novel--feels so very nice...

[black winged fighter]

A long time ago, back at the beginning of the thread, I suggested taking entire chapters and taping them to the wall side by side -- then going to the other side of the room and looking at the patterns the typing made, to make sure you don't have too much dialog or too much description.

Be visual. The arts are all related.

I read that, and since then I have developed the habit of taking my window display down to 10 or 5 percent, and looking at huge chunks side-by-side.
It's interesting to see how the piece flows...
And it's a great sense of satisfaction for me to see my progress so visually.

[Shiny_Penguin]

A long time ago, back at the beginning of the thread, I suggested taking entire chapters and taping them to the wall side by side -- then going to the other side of the room and looking at the patterns the typing made, to make sure you don't have too much dialog or too much description.

Be visual. The arts are all related.

I have always done this. In fact, I flip through books I am thinking of buying and if I see huge pages-long paragraphs, I put it down. If I do it, I'm sure other readers do too.

[James D. Macdonald]

Το Αρχαίο Τάγμα του Κρόνου

I'll explain what this is all about, someday.

[MacAllister]

Uncle Jim, I'll await the explanation with keen interest.

Had the interesting revelation that I'd reached my WIP's climax last night, and was writing my way through it without even realizing what was happening.

My god...I'm within a stone's throw of wrapping up the first draft...Might have never happened without this thread. Thank you.

[James D. Macdonald]

Go, you!

Now revise the heck out of it, then send it out.

[Fillanzea]

A little detective work, and it appears to mean "the ancient battalion of Saturn."

Which explains absolutely nothing.

[James D. Macdonald]

Answer: Peter Crossman's antagonists in his current adventure (now under construction).

"The moon's in Uranus."

"Kinda hard to walk that way, innit?"

[lindylou45]

I have a question which may have already been asked and answered and if that's the case -- well -- do I have to apologize again?

Anyway, here's my question: I want to submit my novel using a pseudonym, but I don't know what I'm supposed to say to the publisher/agent. Do I need to have a reason for wanting to use a pseudonym? I'm so confused.

BTW using the BIC method I have just completed the rough draft of my fourth novel. Ugh, now comes the editing! I'm editing three mss right now. Another question: should I concentrate on editing these mss or should I start another ms?

[katee]

Wow! I have read this entire thread all the way through - I haven't been particularly productive at work for the past few weeks - and have found it a) incredibly useful and b) incredibly motivating. A huge thanks Unky Jim and Everybody Else.

At Eastertime I got the outline done my first novel, on notecards. It was a really useful method - I ended up sticking the cards up on a wall at home and moving them around to see what worked best. I inadvertently made the main plot a different colour to the subplots, and it was great being able to see the intertwination (not too sure if that's a word). That was the moment I think I 'got' the Celtic knotwork thing Uncle Jim was talking about earlier on.

And this morning I've just finished typing up my outline! I added to what I had on each card, getting really involved with the story as I went (surely a good thing?). My outline is 10% of what I'm hoping the final word count will be. I'm pretty chuffed at this point :)

Now to start practising BIC...

[black winged fighter]

Congrats, katee!

I know that ever since UJ mentioned celtic knotwork I haven't been able to get it out of my mind when I type. *grins* I've also recently started jumping on the BIC bandwagon, and although I don't have time for the full two hours every day (Really, UJ - my day starts too early and ends too late) I have started to push myself to write every single day. The progress I've made is really encouraging...

And, to follow katee's example: thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. It has given me hope that I can get published.

[Galoot]

Jim, if I remember correctly, you mentioned you were 35 when you sold your first book. If you don't mind sharing, how long did it take you to write it, and for how long did you have to shop it around?

[James D. Macdonald]

Anyway, here's my question: I want to submit my novel using a pseudonym, but I don't know what I'm supposed to say to the publisher/agent. Do I need to have a reason for wanting to use a pseudonym? I'm so confused.


You don't need a reason. The way you do it is this: You put your real name in the address in the top left corner of the manuscript, and you put the pseudonym in the byline under the title of the piece.

You will have a lot of time to discuss the name question with the editor during the whole editing process.

Sherwood Smith, now, is a friend of mine. Her legal name isn't "Sherwood Smith." It's a name that she likes.

Everything in a contract is negotiable, including your name and the date.



BTW using the BIC method I have just completed the rough draft of my fourth novel. Ugh, now comes the editing! I'm editing three mss right now. Another question: should I concentrate on editing these mss or should I start another ms?

Go, you!
Edit something every day, and write something every day (even if it's only a paragraph).

At some point, before you send off any manuscript, put it in your desk drawer and let it age for three months. Then re-read it and make your final changes.

[James D. Macdonald]

Part one of originality --

The More Things Change the More They Stay the Same

I spent fifteen years in destroyers and frigate in the North Altantic and Mediterranean. Men locked in small metal boxes for months on end -- well, that's very much like men locked in metal boxes for months on end, and if you call them spaceships, you have science fiction. And that's me -- I'm a science fiction writer.

Part two of originality --

Two Old Things Combined Make One New Thing

There haven't been any new plots since Homer sang. But, you can make stories seem new. Cheap trick combine two dissimilar stories into one:

Whar hae ye been, Lord Randall my son
Whar hae ye been, my handsome young one?
First doon tae Rosie's, mither,
First doon tae Rosie's, mither,
Make my bed soon,
For I'm shot in the breast and fain would lie doon.

What gat ye at Rosie's, Lord Randall my son
What gat ye at Rosie's, my handsome young one?
Fish in fish broo, mither,
Fish in fish broo, mither,
Make my bed soon,
For I'm shot in the breast and fain would lie doon.

And whar went ye next, Lord Randall my son,
And whar went ye next, my handsome young one?
I went tae the card-house, mither,
I went tae the card-house, mither,
Make my bed soon
For I'm shot in the breast and fain would lie doon.

What cards did ye hold, Lord Randall my son,
What cards did ye hold, my handsome young one?
Eights and aces, mither,
Eights and aces, mither,
Make my bed soon,
For I'm shot in the breast and fain would lie doon.

And how were ye dressed, Lord Randall my son
And how were ye dressed, my handsome young one?
I dressed as a cowboy, mither,
I dressed as a cowboy, mither,
Make my bed soon,
For I'm shot in the breast and fain would lie doon.

I fear ye've been bushwhacked, Lord Randall my son,
I fear ye've been bushwhacked, my handsome young one.
Oh yes I've been bushwhacked, mither,
Oh yes I've been bushwhacked, mither,
Make my bed soon
For I'm shot in the breast and fain would lie doon.

What d'ye leave tae your brother, Lord Randall my son,
What d'ye leave tae your brother, my handsome young one?
My watch chain and Stetson, mither,
My watch chain and Stetson, mither,
Make my bed soon,
For I'm shot in the breast and fain would lie doon.

What d'ye leave tae your sister, Lord Randall my son,
What d'ye leave tae your sister, my handsome young one?
My five-dollar gold piece, mither,
My five-dollar gold piece, mither,
Make my bed soon,
For I'm shot in the breast and fain would lie doon.

What d'ye leave tae your mither, Lord Randall my son,
What d'ey leave tae your mither, my handsome young one?
A rope tae hang ye, mither,
A rope tae hang ye, mither,
Make my bed soon,
For I'm shot in the breast and I fain would lie doon.

[James D. Macdonald]

Jim, if I remember correctly, you mentioned you were 35 when you sold your first book. If you don't mind sharing, how long did it take you to write it, and for how long did you have to shop it around?

Took four months to write it. It was kind of an unusual circumstance, because it was a packaged novel -- we'd sold one short story, and an editor at a packager who was putting together a series asked if we'd like to write a novel. That was kind of neat -- like taking a course in novel-writing and getting paid for it too.

(The short story was the lead story in a prestige hard-cover anthology. Editors do look in such places for new talent.)

After that we had got an agent and the next six sold on proposal. The one after that took about six months, and when we got it done and mentioned that we'd written an adult novel (all the previous were YA novels), an editor at Tor said, "tell your agent not to send your book to anyone before she sends it to me."

That was the first nine novels, and they were all in the period '86 through '91.

[James D. Macdonald]

A huge thanks Unky Jim and Everybody Else.


You're quite welcome, Katee --

Like any other teacher, all I can say is "Take what's useful and leave the rest."

[lindylou45]

You don't need a reason. The way you do it is this: You put your real name in the address in the top left corner of the manuscript, and you put the pseudonym in the byline under the title of the piece.

You will have a lot of time to discuss the name question with the editor during the whole editing process.

Sherwood Smith, now, is a friend of mine. Her legal name isn't "Sherwood Smith." It's a name that she likes.

Everything in a contract is negotiable, including your name and the date.




Go, you!
Edit something every day, and write something every day (even if it's only a paragraph).

At some point, before you send off any manuscript, put it in your desk drawer and let it age for three months. Then re-read it and make your final changes.

Thank you very much. I'll make the changes regarding the name.

When I edit I tend to edit it two or three times and put it away for as long as six months so it will be fresh in my mind. One of the mss I'm editing I'm to the point of changing things and then changing them back. I know you said at that point we should consider them ready to submit -- but I'm scared! :scared:

Okay, I'll edit and write. Why is it I always feel like I have to get your permission before taking a day off? :confused:

[James D. Macdonald]

I know you said at that point we should consider them ready to submit -- but I'm scared!


Don't be scared. The worst that can happen is you get a rejection slip. Are you looking for an agent?


Okay, I'll edit and write. Why is it I always feel like I have to get your permission before taking a day off?

It's 'cause I've said that being a writer means you have homework every day for the rest of your life.

It's easy to write on the days when it's fun. You have to write on the days when it isn't fun too. (But if you need to take a Mental Health day, by all means do so. Go out, take a walk, see a movie, eat some ice cream, hug your sweetie ... life is short. Enjoy it!)

[James D. Macdonald]

More Fun With Covers (http://www.worldoflongmire.com/features/romance_novels/)

[lindylou45]

Are you looking for an agent?

I'm more concerned about finding a publisher. Should I focus more on finding an agent? I was thinking of submitting to Dorchester and they accept unagented mss.

It's 'cause I've said that being a writer means you have homework every day for the rest of your life.

Ah, yes. That would be the reason!

You have to write on the days when it isn't fun too.

Oh okay. If I gotta!

hug your sweetie

Ooh, what a good idea. I'll be back later.

Seriously, though. This thread has been invaluable to me. I never thought I could make myself write every day until you talked about BIC. I figured my butt had to be somewhere, it might as well be in my chair and I might as well be writing. It's worked very well for me. I don't always work on the same project, but I always get something done. (Although, I do take an occasional weekend off).

[James D. Macdonald]

If you think you have a Dorchester book, and they take unagented mss. -- get their guidelines, follow those guidelines to the letter, and carry on.

(BTW, it's okay to query agents at the same time the manuscript is in a slush pile. Honest!)

[lindylou45]

More Fun With Covers (http://www.worldoflongmire.com/features/romance_novels/)

To be totally honest, I had a little bladder leakage myself! Whew! That was funny!!! :banana:

I can't wait to be published so you can make fun of my book covers!!! :hooray:

[reph]

To be totally honest, I had a little bladder leakage myself!
I'm rethinking my commitment to the value of telling the truth in every situation.

[Galoot]

Damn. I'm out of rep points again. I'll get back to you, reph.

[Steve 211]

It's okay, Galoot, I got you covered.

[JohnLynch]

You have to write on the days when it isn't fun too.It seems for me that every day is a not-fun writing day. Any recommendations Uncle Jim (or anyone else) on how to battle this problem?

Since I've been able to read I've enjoyed writing. Sometimes I'd start a sequel on a book I'd just finished. Often by asking "So what next?" and thinking up a story. However I never actually finished one of those stories. Because eventually it'd stop being fun.

As I grew older I created original stories in my mind. And whenever I began putting my ideas to paper, I would also never finish. Because it would eventually stop being fun.

To this day I've only finished four "stories" (not including writing challenges that have a self-imposed limit), all of them were short stories, and two of them eventually stopped being fun, but I knew I was near the ending so I worked my way through them. Whenever I start writing, I'm extremely enthusiastic and enjoy it a lot, however if I spend too long on it, it always gets to the "not fun" stage (which it does in less then twenty pages everytime), so in the past I'd pass it up for another idea that I was extremely enthusiastic about (which I never finished).

At the moment I'm working my way through a story (which will most likely finish at a novellette length) and it's at the "not fun" stage, but I'm forcing myself to work through it (it's the short story I mentioned a page back). Because I know if I give up and work on another "novel" it too will get to the "not fun" stage, so I might as well stick with the one I've already started ;)

But how do I begin enjoying the process of writing the story again? Writing something when it's "not fun", isn't... very fun ;)

[reph]

It's okay, Galoot, I got you covered.
Thanks, Steve, that was nice of you.

Of course, Galoot, now, he can spit out three points at a time.

Not that I'm being a pig about it or anything.

[Liam Jackson]

If I understand correctly, you have moments of inspiration and begin a story. Then, at some point, writing ceases to be "inspired" and becomes drudgery.

If this is the case, if sounds like you're hitting the dread "wall." I've heard numerous writers describe the same thing. And, I've heard three approaches to the problem.

First, back away from writitng, until the bug really hits you again, then take your story out of the desk drawer and look at it with a fresh eye.
(This may work for some, but if I tried it, I'd never get past "...it was a dark and stormy night.")

I've hit that damn wall myself, and the only way I can get past it is to "stick with BIC." (Butt in Chair) usually, if I keep writing, I hit another one of those inspired moments and the story comes to life again.

The third solution is to work from an outline. Storyboard the tale first, and let it help you through the tough spots.

Best of luck to you.

[James D. Macdonald]

John, I can tell you exactly what's happening with you.

You're hitting the dread "mid-book." The joy of the opening is far behind, the climax is out of sight beyond the horizon -- and you're paddling, paddling, paddling with no hope of an end in sight.

Lots of people quit right then.

If you get through it, though, you get to the climax, and that's lots of fun. If you make through the mid-book you'll be rewarded.

Later, when you're re-reading and revising you'll notice that the mid-book is where all the neat variations and clever twists and neat surprises took place. You won't see them while they're happening, but they're there. You revise to point 'em up, to plant 'em properly in the beginning and tie them off properly in the end.

Next time, rather than quitting, bull your way thorugh. And when I say bull, I mean bull. As in BS.

BIC and onward. You aren't allowed to stop until you hit "The End."

The road to publication is strewn with the bones of men who faltered and died during the mid-book.

[lindylou45]

It seems for me that every day is a not-fun writing day. Any recommendations Uncle Jim (or anyone else) on how to battle this problem?

Wow, I can't imagine writing not being fun. Yeah, there are days when I don't feel like it, but I'm always thinking about it or writing it out longhand.

I write because I love it and I can't imagine not doing it. Perhaps you need to think about whether you really want to write. It's not horrible if you don't want to write, just choose something else to do.

Good luck to you. :Sun:

[Dawno]

Just popping in to say that the index to this thread is current as of Uncle Jim's last post above. Hope it's helpful for finding stuff way, way upthread and as a companion to "The Undiluted" thread.

[alaskamatt17]

I can't imagine writing not being fun, either. And the midbook is just as fun for me as the beginning or the climax. In fact, I think I enjoy it more than the beginning. Right now I'm in the middle of my favorite chapter I've ever written. It's long, too, about 6,000 words so far, with at least 2,000 left before the next chapter break. But it's been moving along so fast that I don't think it needs to be cut in two--just trimmed a little.

But as much as I like writing, I can see how you would dislike it if you wrote on the basis of inspiration. I used to do that, and there would be days where it just wasn't fun. Then, I learned about outlining. Now I don't need inspiration (though I gladly take it when it comes), I just stick to my plan, and hammer out 2,000 words per day (except today because I've been shirking my schoolwork and it's all due on Monday).

[reph]

Whenever I start writing, I'm extremely enthusiastic and enjoy it a lot, however if I spend too long on it, it always gets to the "not fun" stage (which it does in less then twenty pages everytime)...
You might experiment with different forms. Maybe shorter stories would suit your rhythms better.

Could it be that you get tired of an idea when you've thought about it so long that it isn't new and interesting?

[Steve 211]

I hear ya, John. At one time I had the same deal. In fact, I could hardly get to the end of the second page without getting into a funk and writing, "And then a bomb fell and everyone died. The End."

How did I get out of it? Actually I spent a few years writing songs. Narrative songs, as with folk music, are great for honing your writing skills in that you have to compress so much into so few lines, as well as keep the dramatic rise and pay-off, with characterization through dialogue and first person narrative. Think of Neil Young's "Powderfinger" - a Civil War novel in about six verses.

Or just go with whatever form you're attracted to, such as sketching out how you'd of improved that movie you saw last night. Just anything to sharpen your dramatic tools and insight.

Then, if you're lucky, you'll happen to write out a few pages and something will hook and next thing you're into a novel. Sounds like you're already able to do that, but is it something you'd really want to read, or just what you think you should be writing? Make a list of your favorite books - the ones you re-read when you're sick in bed - and see what they have in common and what you could add to the genre.

In the end, though, writing's a lot like hiking. When I'm beginning a long hike up a mountain, I'm preparing myself for the long haul, when I'm in the midst of it, I'm not having fun but am mostly in pain, and when I get to the top of the mountain it's rarely what I hoped it would be. So why do I do it? I dunno. In some way I just like it. And the same with writing - I rarely think of it as fun. It's just what I've set out to do, and I do it. And that in itself is the reward.

Best of luck with it, and I'll close with something Dave Barry once said about writing:

Writing humor takes discipline and hard work. I have this theory. Here it is, My Theory about Writing: It’s hard. The humor doesn’t just flow out of me as easily as people think. A funny idea has to be tooled and shaped so that it’s funny to others when it’s read.

People think that because humor is light and easy to read, that it’s just as simple to write. Nothing could be more untrue. You have to work at it. Writer’s block, for example. People simply give up and don’t want to put forth the effort to work through the barriers. No good writing is easy. It all has to do with overcoming the obstacles we find in the way of our creativity. You just have to have the determination to do it.

[Mistook]

John, I can tell you exactly what's happening with you.

You're hitting the dread "mid-book." The joy of the opening is far behind, the climax is out of sight beyond the horizon -- and you're paddling, paddling, paddling with no hope of an end in sight.

Lots of people quit right then.

If you get through it, though, you get to the climax, and that's lots of fun. If you make through the mid-book you'll be rewarded.

Later, when you're re-reading and revising you'll notice that the mid-book is where all the neat variations and clever twists and neat surprises took place. You won't see them while they're happening, but they're there. You revise to point 'em up, to plant 'em properly in the beginning and tie them off properly in the end.

Next time, rather than quitting, bull your way thorugh. And when I say bull, I mean bull. As in BS.

BIC and onward. You aren't allowed to stop until you hit "The End."

The road to publication is strewn with the bones of men who faltered and died during the mid-book.


Just what I needed to hear, Uncle Jim! I'm at midbook right now, and floundering. You've given me the inscentive to press on and finish this first draft. Thanks!

[brokenfingers]

It seems for me that every day is a not-fun writing day. Any recommendations Uncle Jim (or anyone else) on how to battle this problem?

But how do I begin enjoying the process of writing the story again? Writing something when it's "not fun", isn't... very fun ;)

I ran into this also. What I did was to take all my characters, factions, organizations, governments etc. (I'm writing a fantasy) and make a list of all the possible conflicts that were possible between them.

Then I would choose a conflict and write a big scene (or scenes). I would throw everything I could into it too, figuring it'd be better to write it "hot" and get everything I could into it and then edit it later. The writing wound up being fun and got me over the "hump".

These scenes may or may not even be in the final product since they were not written in chronological order but they did help me get my juices flowing again as well as giving me a deeper understanding of who my characters were and what motivated them - plus how they reacted under pressure.

This wound up having another side effect also. I noticed that there was a lot of interpersonal conflict that I was not utilizing in my storytelling. Just because two people are on the same side doesn't mean that they agree on how to achieve the same goals.

Added tension and underlying conflict added vibrancy to my scenes.

Just some thoughts. Hope this helps.

[brokenfingers]

Allow me to add that I think Uncle Jim's contributions here on this Forum are priceless and this particular thread is a godsend to all new writers.

On behalf of new writers everywhere:

Thank you Uncle Jim.

[Mistook]

My problem began when I finished the midbook chapter. It was (in my mind) a great, strategic battle - a climax all it's own. The good guys, in their foolhardy way, prevailed, but the stage is now set for a punishing revenge from the enemy, and at the same time - the secondary plot is only just beginning to boil.

I'm so satisfied with the chapter I've just written, and with the resolution of this immediate conflict, that I dread moving forward - into more convoluted tangles, and bigger - more complicated action scenes.

Also, there's this knowledge of word-count looming over me. I'm at nearly 40 thousand words. I have to tackle all the remaining B.S. in about that same span, but I've only just set it up! I've only just gotten the story to cook!

Can I handle the second half? Am I worthy? Will I screw it up so badly that they put my photo in the dictionary, under Disappointment?

It's daunting, but as Jim suggests, I'll paddle on toward the shore.

[astonwest]

You're hitting the dread "mid-book." The joy of the opening is far behind, the climax is out of sight beyond the horizon -- and you're paddling, paddling, paddling with no hope of an end in sight.

...

Next time, rather than quitting, bull your way thorugh. And when I say bull, I mean bull. As in BS.

Yup, that sounds like where I'm at right now...with two separate books.
I would love for you to expand on this 'bull your way through' strategy.

Wow, I can't imagine writing not being fun. Yeah, there are days when I don't feel like it, but I'm always thinking about it or writing it out longhand.

I always think about it...and that's where the trouble begins. Half the trouble comes from my past experience (the publisher who shall not be named), and the other half comes from the inside (own worst critic syndrome). The two meld with one another to make a large stumbling block most days.

Guess I need a little more BIC time...

[James D. Macdonald]

"Thinking about writing" isn't "writing." Only "writing" is "writing."

By "bull your way through" -- imagine that you're in a bar with your buddies. You're BSing like crazy. Just telling stories. "That reminds me," you say, "remember that chick Fred was going with? The one who used to braid her nostril hair?" And you're off.

Get the characters doing things. Move 'em around. Bring in a new character if you have to in order to liven things up, or let one of the earlier minor characters have a turn. Make stuff up.

You're competing with the TV over the bar, the pool table, and the beer for your friends' attention. (They're your friends because otherwise they wouldn't be here with you.) Give 'em some reason to listen to you, but talk regardless. Silence will for-sure turn their attention back to the TV.

You're going to revise this stuff anyway. Just get words on paper.

[zizban]

The wall, for me, usually hits me early, about page 50. I have many stories about that length. I have to remember that the first draft with written with the heart, the second with the head.

[JohnLynch]

If I understand correctly, you have moments of inspiration and begin a story. Then, at some point, writing ceases to be "inspired" and becomes drudgery.That's it :)

First, back away from writitng, until the bug really hits you again, then take your story out of the desk drawer and look at it with a fresh eye.
(This may work for some, but if I tried it, I'd never get past "...it was a dark and stormy night.")Done this numerous times, and I've never gotten back to it.

I've hit that damn wall myself, and the only way I can get past it is to "stick with BIC." (Butt in Chair) usually, if I keep writing, I hit another one of those inspired moments and the story comes to life again.Good to know. It might be when I reach page 40 (something I've never done) it will all flow once more.

The third solution is to work from an outline. Storyboard the tale first, and let it help you through the tough spots. That's what I'm doing right now (thanks to this thread). In the past I've also been stuck with "well where do I go from here?" This time I know exactly where to go.

I used to do that, and there would be days where it just wasn't fun. Then, I learned about outlining. Now I don't need inspiration (though I gladly take it when it comes), I just stick to my plan, and hammer out 2,000 words per day.Hopefully I'll be able to become so self-disciplined that I can do that. At the moment, the fact I'm "bulling" my way through is an achievment ;)

Perhaps you need to think about whether you really want to write. It's not horrible if you don't want to write, just choose something else to do. In the past I have done that. I've resigned myself to the fact, I'm just not made for it. After all, I've been starting stories since I was 8. However I always keep starting up once more, because I do enjoy starting stories so much. It seems to be, no matter how much I have failed, I'll keep trying to write stories.

I ran into this also. What I did was to take all my characters, factions, organizations, governments etc. (I'm writing a fantasy) and make a list of all the possible conflicts that were possible between them.

Then I would choose a conflict and write a big scene (or scenes). I would throw everything I could into it too, figuring it'd be better to write it "hot" and get everything I could into it and then edit it later. The writing wound up being fun and got me over the "hump".Thanks, I'll certainly give that a go.

Also, there's this knowledge of word-count looming over me. I'm at nearly 40 thousand words. I have to tackle all the remaining B.S. in about that same span, but I've only just set it up! I've only just gotten the story to cook!

Can I handle the second half? Am I worthy? Will I screw it up so badly that they put my photo in the dictionary, under Disappointment?Has anyone bought the story from you? If not, you don't have a word limit. Write as much as you need to, if you need to, you can cut out a sub-plot or two, or split it up into several books. After all, Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series (famous fantasy series) was originally meant to be a trilogy. It's now up to book ten. It would have been nowhere near as good had Robert Jordan forced himself to limit the story to a trilogy.

This guy (http://writingcraft.deep-magic.net/article.php?id=31) wrote an article in July 2002 about how he had a 3 year plan. He was going to write 3 books in 3 years and sell them or he'd quit. That was in 1994. He didn't write 3 books, he wrote 1 monster-sized book. It was probably the size of the original 3 books. In 2002 he still hadn't sold the novel, but he hadn't given up. He was having fun.

I read that article a few days ago (I just recently started reading the e-zine) and I decided to check him out, so I did a google search. He has a website (http://home.earthlink.net/~ccfinlay/) and guess what, he's sold his first novel and it will be published later this year. Over a decade from when he first started and he's only just published his first novel.

So don't worry about word-count, write your story and only when you've hit the end should you worry about how big it is.

This coming from someone whose yet to finish his first novel ;)

Next time, rather than quitting, bull your way thorugh. And when I say bull, I mean bull. As in BS.

By "bull your way through" -- imagine that you're in a bar with your buddies. You're BSing like crazy. Just telling stories. "That reminds me," you say, "remember that chick Fred was going with? The one who used to braid her nostril hair?" And you're off.

Get the characters doing things. Move 'em around. Bring in a new character if you have to in order to liven things up, or let one of the earlier minor characters have a turn. Make stuff up.

You're competing with the TV over the bar, the pool table, and the beer for your friends' attention. (They're your friends because otherwise they wouldn't be here with you.) Give 'em some reason to listen to you, but talk regardless. Silence will for-sure turn their attention back to the TV.

You're going to revise this stuff anyway. Just get words on paper.Next time is this time, and I'll give it a go. After all, you haven't given me permission to stop ;) (Funny how having someone you need "permission" from helps people. After all, you're not going to do anything if we don't do what you say. But psychologically it helps to have someone who is an authority figure). Also, if I'm finding myself bored, I'll try to BS, add ridiculous stuff that I find funny and entertaining. After all, if a published author can do it (earlier in the thread you said you add stuff in the ms that's only meant to give your partner a chuckle and not end up in the book), I'm sure I can ;)

Thanks for all the advice and comments (even those who decided to delete their posts. It was still greatly appreciated ;)). And I'm glad to hear my question has helped other people too.

[zizban]

I usually dont do outlines but I may after this thread. It cant hurt.

[brinkett]

After all, Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series (famous fantasy series) was originally meant to be a trilogy. It's now up to book ten. It would have been nowhere near as good had Robert Jordan forced himself to limit the story to a trilogy.
*cough* *cough* I wish he had stopped at three. Just about everyone I know who initially loved it has given up on it, myself included. I used to buy the hardcovers as soon as they came out. Now I don't even know if there's one due out, or what number he's on.

There's nothing worse than reading hundreds of pages and realizing the plot has hardly advanced, nor have any of the subplots. He certainly could have done as good a job in three books, given how little has actually happened in each of the later books.

I agree with writing without regard to word length for the first draft. You can chop it down later.

[maestrowork]

You might experiment with different forms. Maybe shorter stories would suit your rhythms better.

Could it be that you get tired of an idea when you've thought about it so long that it isn't new and interesting?

It goes with EVERYTHING we do, including relationships. We don't just divorce our spouses just because the marriage is not as new and interesting and exciting anymore. Or do we? Do we bail because we're not "in love" anymore?

The same goes with everything we do, be it sports, work, etc. The thing is, as long as writing remains your passion and that you couldn't go one day without writing something, you still have it. There are days with that relationship doesn't feel that hot. And there are days when you can make love with your words all day. You just need to keep at it. There are good times, and there are bad times. It's really like giving birth (even though I've never given and will never give birth). When that baby is born, it IS a beautiful thing.

[zizban]

*cough* *cough* I wish he had stopped at three. Just about everyone I know who initially loved it has given up on it, myself included. I used to buy the hardcovers as soon as they came out. Now I don't even know if there's one due out, or what number he's on.

There's nothing worse than reading hundreds of pages and realizing the plot has hardly advanced, nor have any of the subplots. He certainly could have done as good a job in three books, given how little has actually happened in each of the later books.

I agree with writing without regard to word length for the first draft. You can chop it down later.

Yes! I dont think he could have done it as a trilogy; six books maybe. Book Three was the best in the series, by far, and was everything the other books should have been: exciting and fast paced.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

(BTW, it's okay to query agents at the same time the manuscript is in a slush pile. Honest!)What is the typical, polite way of handling that? I mean, I assume that the publisher doesn't need to know, but at what point do you say to the agent, "By the way, this novel of mine has been submitted to XYZ?" Do you do so in the initial query, or do you wait for the request-for-full, or do you not say a word until the agent agrees to work with you and your novel?

[James D. Macdonald]

You tell the agent after he has agreed to represent you. Before that point it's your business, not his, what else you've done with the manuscript.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

You tell the agent after he has agreed to represent you. Before that point it's your business, not his, what else you've done with the manuscript.Got it. Thank you!

[Jason M. Dyess]

*pants*

I'm done. Now I can breath again.

It only took me three weeks to read this entire thread (not sure how long it will take to absorb or apply it).

I've:
Ordered logical chess....
Okay, that's all I've done so far, but I'll do the rest as well.

Trying to work two hours of BIC on a deployment is difficult, but I squeeze in whatever time I can.

A million thanks for all of the great advise here, Uncle Jim, et al.

[black winged fighter]

Welcome, Jason, and congrats on the speedy read. This thread is certainly the place to be for all us writers!

[James D. Macdonald]

Where are you deployed, Jason?

I picked up my college degree while on active duty deployed, and started writing while stationed overseas.

[JohnLynch]

Welcome Jason :)

Trying to work two hours of BIC on a deployment is difficult, but I squeeze in whatever time I can.I'm assuming that means your in the military, wow. That's got to be difficult.

Is it just me, or do quite a few American writers seem to have served in the army before becoming a writer?

[paritoshuttam]

A Word to the unwise -- program's grammar check isn't so smart

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/217802_grammar28.asp

Microsoft the company should big improve Word grammar check.

No, your eyes aren't deceiving you. That sentence is a confusing jumble. However, it is perfectly fine in the assessment of Microsoft Word's built-in grammar checker, which detects no problem with the prose.
...
"Marketing are bad for brand big and small. You Know What I am Saying? It is no wondering that advertisings are bad for company in America, Chicago and Germany. ... McDonald's and Coca Cola are good brand. ... Gates do good marketing job in Microsoft."
...

- Paritosh

[oswann]

A Word to the unwise -- program's grammar check isn't so smart

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/217802_grammar28.asp

Microsoft the company should big improve Word grammar check.

No, your eyes aren't deceiving you. That sentence is a confusing jumble. However, it is perfectly fine in the assessment of Microsoft Word's built-in grammar checker, which detects no problem with the prose.
...
"Marketing are bad for brand big and small. You Know What I am Saying? It is no wondering that advertisings are bad for company in America, Chicago and Germany. ... McDonald's and Coca Cola are good brand. ... Gates do good marketing job in Microsoft."
...

- Paritosh



Grammar checks by Microsoft or anyone else can confuse more than help. The most useful thing about the majority of them is the 'off' button.



Os.

[Jason M. Dyess]

Where are you deployed, Jason?

I picked up my college degree while on active duty deployed, and started writing while stationed overseas.

I'm in Qatar. The only reason I even consider it a deployment is because I am away from my family, but the hours aren't short.
Strange place for an Army guy: on an Air Force base.

[James D. Macdonald]

I probably shouldn't mention what kind of unhealthy things I did to my body to make time for writing. (Up two hours before reveille; gallons of coffee.)

[lindylou45]

:welcome: Jason. Be careful!

[Richard White]

I'm in Qatar. The only reason I even consider it a deployment is because I am away from my family, but the hours aren't short.
Strange place for an Army guy: on an Air Force base.

Jason,

I can sympathize with you. Spent 3.5 years stationed at Goodfellow AFB. Being the only Army Battalion on an Air Force base was "strange". Course, if we thought we had it bad, the poor Marines only had a DET (slightly larger than a company).

Our Brigade was at Ft. Huachucha but our admin was handled through Ft. Hood and serious medical was handled through Ft. Sam Houston in San Antonio. (HELP!!!!)

[zizban]

Navy here. USS Abraham Lincoln. Nothing like trying to find time to write on a busy aircraft carrier!

[Jason M. Dyess]

My problem is more than time crunch. Alas, I am a cat vacuumer (and washer and waxer). If I try to write anything longer than a short story, I get partway in and realize that I am writing cr*p (or don't know what to write). So, I start reading about writing to figure out what is wrong with me, knowing all along that what is wrong is that I need to sit and write anything, even if it is cr*p, 'cause I can fix it later.

Gallons of Coffee? I don't know if I am capable of drinking anymore. I am, however, moving my wake-up time to earlier in the afternoon (I work nights) so I can start BIC'ing.

I can identify with those Marines; there are only 40 people in my unit.

[katee]

I've just started BICing and ... I'm getting heaps better at Solitaire. Plus the housework is getting done verrrrry quickly.

When I finally get words on screen, what I'm writing inevitably turns out to be really, really bad. The best thing you can say about it is it's grammatical and spelt correctly. My new approach is telling myself I've got permission to write badly. Next time I BIC I will have to see whether that's made a difference.

As for not knowing what to write, that used to happen to me. With my latest attempt at a novel, I've spent a lot of time outlining. It's given me a real boost in confidence, and had actually taken one of my writing problems away - it's no longer "what happens, and how exactly?" but just "how exactly?".

Next step is finding time to BIC, on a much more regular basis. If James could get up 2 hrs before reveille to write, then all the excuses I've told myself as to why I can't make time each day seem pretty pathetic.

[Fillanzea]

I've just started BICing and ... I'm getting heaps better at Solitaire. Plus the housework is getting done verrrrry quickly.

Change your Solitaire shortcut to be a shortcut to your word processing program instead. Yes, really. I unplug my internet connection when I'm BICing, because that's my inevitable temptation.

I can't always give myself permission to write badly, but I can usually give myself permission to be an apprentice. I guess the difference is that I'm still very much obliged to care about the quality of my writing, but I'm allowed to make mistakes because there are things I can't know yet.

[James D. Macdonald]

Jason, Katee, I hereby give you permission to write absolute garbage.

I'm sure you've heard that everyone has to write a million or two words of garbage, to get 'em out of their systems? Well, what's stopping you? Get 'em on paper!

The only thing I don't give you permission to do is stop before you reach "The End."

Maybe the story will be good, maybe it won't be -- but until you get it on paper it ain't nothing.

[Jason M. Dyess]

For some reason, it helps to be given permission to write garbage. I am moving my BIC time from morning back to nights. I'll let you know tomorrow how it went.

[Galoot]

At 3:00 yesterday afternoon we lost our internet connection. We didn't get it back until 1:00pm today.

Those were the most productive 22 hours I've had in months.

Not only did I get close to 4000 words in, I outlined another 2500 (which, I'm thinking, has partly solved my main problem--knowing the beginning and the end, but not knowing how to get everyone there).

Now the net's back up and I have to do my real job again. Damn. Maybe I'll take an axe to the cable.

[zizban]

For some reason, it helps to be given permission to write garbage. I am moving my BIC time from morning back to nights. I'll let you know tomorrow how it went.

Same here. I have no idea if its good or bad but its going.

[mistri]

At 3:00 yesterday afternoon we lost our internet connection. We didn't get it back until 1:00pm today.

Those were the most productive 22 hours I've had in months.

Not only did I get close to 4000 words in, I outlined another 2500 (which, I'm thinking, has partly solved my main problem--knowing the beginning and the end, but not knowing how to get everyone there).

Now the net's back up and I have to do my real job again. Damn. Maybe I'll take an axe to the cable.

I would've written 98 million novels by now if it wasn't for the Internet. Saying that, I've learned a lot from (the good) writing communities that might've taken me a lot longer to find out on my own.

[mudflat_marsh_hawk]

I agree with James. For me anyway, each day of writing includes about 10-15 minutes of clearing the sludge as it were. After that, and sometimes sooner, my mind clears and the writing improves. I akin it to doing body stretches or warming up before running. I have to get the mind in shape to get the "real" writing. Look at it this way, not all of us start out painting Picassos, and we must practice and work to get to the jewels hidden within.




--Just found this thread --- Thank you for sharing with us from your knowledge and experience as a writer.

Cheers!
--mudflat

[katee]

Last night's BIC did go more smoothly, once I realised it was OK to cringe at what I was producing.

And looking over the stuff I'd done on the weekend, it wasn't as bad as I thought. Well, maybe it was, but I've been able to work with it a little, improving what I had, with the added bonus of having a nicely fleshed out scene sitting on my computer.

I've also starting taking notice of how I write in other aspects of my life - my blog, emails, reports for work (and, yes, posts on this forum too). I've noticed that I usually have an idea I want to get out, but I spend a decent amount of time playing around with work choices, sentence structure, paragraphing etc. If I do it for measly 50 word emails, I should probably expect to write my novel the same way!

So my aim for the first draft is: write each scene as I want it to happen, and get to the end of the book. Then it will be time to fiddle around with what I've written.

[alaskamatt17]

Katee, that's great that you're now moving along. I've been moving along pretty nicely on my WIP (Up to about 36,000 words now), and I started writing a new short story, which is pretty entertaining, though I'll be the first to admit it's no fine work of art.

On another note, I found the novel I wrote when I was fourteen--and it's terrible. I had a good laugh reading dialogue such as: "How dare you assault a guard such as myself." This is one of those first novels that should be burned or thrown in the Atlantic, but I think instead I'll keep it for a good laugh once I am published.

[zizban]

I still have my first novel, too, and its not as bad as I thought it would be upon re-reading it last night. Some good ideas I may use again in other stories. WIP goes, sludge and all. :D

[DeadlyAccurate]

I've also starting taking notice of how I write in other aspects of my life - my blog, emails, reports for work (and, yes, posts on this forum too). I've noticed that I usually have an idea I want to get out, but I spend a decent amount of time playing around with work choices, sentence structure, paragraphing etc. If I do it for measly 50 word emails, I should probably expect to write my novel the same way!

I have to take care with my posts and emails, because I'm a succinct and curt writer. My posts can come across as incredibly rude if I don't take the time to pay attention to how I word them.

[Roger J Carlson]

I have to take care with my posts and emails, because I'm a succinct and curt writer. My posts can come across as incredibly rude if I don't take the time to pay attention to how I word them.Oh, I wouldn't say that. Say rather: painfully straightforward. <grin>

[DeadlyAccurate]

*snort* Most people aren't as nice as you are, Roger.

In the discussion of music and BIC, does anyone else find that certain types of music help with writing certain scenes? I have a subscription to launch.com, so I often listen to commercial-free radio at my desk when I'm writing. I've found that fast-paced, harder stuff really helps me with action scenes (Marilyn Manson, Slipknot, Korn, Linkin Park, etc.). For other scenes, the alternative rock or dirty south stations work just fine.

[Roger J Carlson]

*snort* Most people aren't as nice as you are, Roger.Others would disagree with you about how nice I am. *sigh*

In the discussion of music and BIC, does anyone else find that certain types of music help with writing certain scenes? I have a subscription to launch.com, so I often listen to commercial-free radio at my desk when I'm writing. I've found that fast-paced, harder stuff really helps me with action scenes (Marilyn Manson, Slipknot, Korn, Linkin Park, etc.). For other scenes, the alternative rock or dirty south stations work just fine.I'm more of a classical music fan myself. Long before I started writing, I discovered that if I had a particularly thorny programming problem (I'm a database developer), I could crank up "Carmina Burana" by Carl Orff, close my eyes, and after a while, the problem would resolve itself.

Interestingly, Orff doesn't work for fiction. For fiction, I use one of the Mannheim Steamroller Christmas CDs. I know. It's weird, but it works.

My theory is that at some point, I was particularly creative while listening to a particular album. Listening again to that music helps to recapture the creativity. If that is true, then almost any music could do it.

[Ursula]

I go by genre and scene for music. If it's hard core action, I go rock and roll all the way, the heavier the better. If it's something else, I can range from abient new age to a theta wave cd that I use for meditation. I stay away from radio, though, because the commercials are too disruptive.

Ursula
******
http://www.livejournal.com/users/space_opera_x/

[alaskamatt17]

I'm an odd one I guess. It doesn't matter what I listen to. Sometimes it works well to blast one of my punk rock CDs, other times I'll just sit there in silence. The silence doesn't work so well when there's a whole lot of noise from other people, at which point I'll turn on the punk or maybe some slow-paced techno. The repetition in most techno songs lets me just forget they're playing and go into the world I'm writing about.

[Jason M. Dyess]

Well, instead of getting up early and writing, I chose to go to bed later. I allowed my self to write whatever came to mind (in fact started off describing what I was doing and the basic story I was toying with. I had a few false starts, but I kept my fingers moving. I ran about 20 minutes short of two hours, but I got in 2500 words. Basically, wrote the first draft of a new shortstory in that time. It'll need some major changes (only about half of those words are needed, if that), but it's on paper now, so I can work with it later.

Next I need to get back to my novel.

[pepperlandgirl]

*snort* Most people aren't as nice as you are, Roger.

In the discussion of music and BIC, does anyone else find that certain types of music help with writing certain scenes? I have a subscription to launch.com, so I often listen to commercial-free radio at my desk when I'm writing. I've found that fast-paced, harder stuff really helps me with action scenes (Marilyn Manson, Slipknot, Korn, Linkin Park, etc.). For other scenes, the alternative rock or dirty south stations work just fine.

I listen to my Wilco cds. Fighting/action/angst is A Ghost is Born. Happier themes get Summerteeth or Yankee Hotel Foxtrot. Sometimes I just "play all" on my MP3 player and put it on shuffle. But at this point, I pretty much have to have music on to write. And I must be wearing earphones. I guess it's a way to block out the rest of the world.

[zizban]

I tend to fire up my mp3 player and put it on shuffle,

[Rambling]

[The customary intro:]

Wow! I can't believe I've finally read the whole thread. Nice feeling of accomplishment. Thank you to everyone wh has contributed - I've learnt an amazing amount.

[And the questions...]

Actually, most of my questions can be answered by either 'practice' or 'find a good author and see how they do it', so I'll limit myself to one.

Uncle Jim, you mention a few times that short stories are a very different beast to novels. What do you think about the advice that a new writer should practice short stories before starting a novel?

[mudflat_marsh_hawk]

Classical music works well for me when I'm writing. But, I agree with the others here, there's nothing like alternative/rock to help fire up the action scenes.
I tend to lean toward aerosmith, myself. I have an obscure cassette tape by the artist Mayumi that works wonderfully for brain clearing soulful bouts. I also keep a water fountain going -- to sooth the writer's soul.

[James D. Macdonald]

Uncle Jim, you mention a few times that short stories are a very different beast to novels. What do you think about the advice that a new writer should practice short stories before starting a novel?

I think that some people do it that way.

I also know that some others start right in on novels.

I'm going to fall back on one of my standard evasions: Do what works for you.

I do think it's a mistake to wait around until you've sold X number of short stories before you start your novel -- I believe it's actually easier to sell a novel than a short story. There's less competition for novels and there're more markets.

[Ken Schneider]

Jim, can you tell me what is the standard acceptable word count for publishers?

I know if a book is very good they'll pub it,( Nicholas Sparks, The Notebook, 45,000.
My books seem to come to a conclusion at around 60,000. 200 pages?

[Lenora Rose]

On another note, I found the novel I wrote when I was fourteen--and it's terrible. I had a good laugh reading dialogue such as: "How dare you assault a guard such as myself." This is one of those first novels that should be burned or thrown in the Atlantic, but I think instead I'll keep it for a good laugh once I am published.

I've kept a pile of teenaged drafts, mostly for similar reasons (Also as a morale booster: When my brain starts telling me, "I can't write any better now than I did then. I haven't improved a bit! I'm doing what UJ said and writing the same mistakes over and over..." Then I read what i wrote as a teen, and the feeling goes away.

However, a friend of mine just told me he found the floppy disc with a story draft I gave to him when we were both 14-15. Now THAT's humiliation. *I* can laugh at me, but knowing someone else out there can still see what a horror I created... (He joked about showing it to my fiance... aargh!)

[James D. Macdonald]

Wordcounts for publishers?

Check their guidelines.

You probably won't be wrong if you hit the 80,000-100,000 word range.

There's a bell curve. The closer to the edge you get, the more brilliant your manuscript has to be.

Making the manuscript the right length for the story is part of being brilliant.

[maestrowork]

My book must be brilliant! ;) (It's at 75000 words).

[zizban]

My brilliance is yet to come. My WIP is 10,000 words right now.

[Christine N.]

Aw, c'mon Maestro, you have more confidence than that! Not 'must be' but 'is'! :kiss:

MY book IS brilliant... and it's only 50K. (But it's for 9-12 yo's, so that's ok). :lol

Ok, it's not brilliant yet, but it has the potential for brilliance. Give me another two drafts and it will be.

[maestrowork]

I'm working on it, Christine -- being brilliant, that is. Now, I'm just happy to have "earned the admiration." ;)

[Julie Worth]

You probably won't be wrong if you hit the 80,000-100,000 word range.




Exactly right! I queried a publisher, with the opening chapter attached. I like what I see, he said, how long is it? 90 thousand words? Perfect, he’ll read it in two weeks. So I emailed it to him. A day later he replied—he must not have gotten it all, because there’s only 75 thousand words. So I explained that I used the 250 words per page method. What was I talking about, he’d never heard of such a thing.

Our correspondence deteriorated from there. The last email I got from him was apparently to someone else, saying I was a liar.

So now I always list both the computer count and the other count, which unfortunately doesn’t have a name.

[James D. Macdonald]

Dare I ask the name of this publisher?

[Julie Worth]

Dare I ask the name of this publisher?

I’d rather not say. Even though he’s a small independent, there’s no point in burning bridges until I make the big time. But then! Oh yes, then I will sneer at all those fools. And I will drag their names through the mud!

[James D. Macdonald]

Please whisper it in my ear.

[kmm8n]

Hi, I'm new here, and haven't had the chance to read the entire thread, so if my question has already been answered, please forgive me.

I posted several of my chapters with an on-line critique group and a few comments centered around secondary characters. For example: "Who are these people, why should we care about them, what do they have to do with the story?"

I write romantic suspense and these characters are important to the overall story and their involvement becomes clear in later chapters.

How do I avoid the above questions, while still keeping the suspense. It's no fun to give away the answer to the mystery at the beginning of the story.

Thanks, in advance, for your help.

[James D. Macdonald]

"Who are these people, why should we care about them, what do they have to do with the story?"

Those are excellent questions.

(I'm assuming you've posted the chapters in order, beginning with the first one, rather than random chapters from the middle of the book.)

Anyway ...

The most important of those questions is "why do we care?"

Recast your story in your mind as if each of those minor characters were the hero of his/her own book. What would their stories be?

Introduce them in their own plot arcs that have their own beginnings, middles, and ends. Make them three-dimensional. Cherish them. A minor character is just as important as your hero.

Take your favorite novel. Re-read it, paying special attention to the minor characters. How does the author introduce them? What are they doing when they aren't providing an important clue later on in the story?

[Sonya]

Hi everyone!

Just started reading through this thread. I have a confession to make. Thanks to my dad, I grew up reading Louis L'Amour and the Travis McGee (spelling?) series. For a few days, I thought James D. Macdonald was the guy who wrote that series.

But I think I've got it straight now and I'll jump in with a question.

When writing, how do you battle yourself.....the inner voice that tells you what you've written is stupid and no one will want to read it? Does that ever go away?

Okay..two questions...

Sonya

[kmm8n]

(I'm assuming you've posted the chapters in order, beginning with the first one, rather than random chapters from the middle of the book.)

Yup, I posted them in order

Anyway ...

The most important of those questions is "why do we care?"

Recast your story in your mind as if each of those minor characters were the hero of his/her own book. What would their stories be?

When I did this, the comment was about too much detail, is this important, etc?

Take your favorite novel. Re-read it, paying special attention to the minor characters. How does the author introduce them? What are they doing when they aren't providing an important clue later on in the story?

Great idea...I will do this.
Thanks

Back to reading the beginning of this thread!

[jdparadise]

When writing, how do you battle yourself.....the inner voice that tells you what you've written is stupid and no one will want to read it? Does that ever go away?


From what I've heard, alas, if you have it when you start it never really goes away, even when you're a Big Famous Writer. It just shifts to "will this be the one they find out I'm a fraud on?" instead.

The good news to this--and there is good news to it--is that, realizing that it'll never go away, you recognize that you're not really in the best position to judge the quality of what you're doing. Of course you think it sucks--you think everything you write, or have ever written, sucks.

So maybe this is brilliant. Who knows? Might as well keep writing and find out...

Hey, it's a cheap trick, but sometimes the cheap tricks are the most effective ones...

[reph]

I’d rather not say. Even though he’s a small independent...
You can use pig Latin. Nobody here understands it.
I posted several of my chapters with an on-line critique group and a few comments centered around secondary characters. For example: "Who are these people, why should we care about them, what do they have to do with the story?"

I write romantic suspense and these characters are important to the overall story and their involvement becomes clear in later chapters.
It sounds as if the critiquers complained that the characters weren't presented so as to get the reader to care about them. This is independent of the writer's interest in them based on their role in the structure of the story.

[Sailor Kenshin]

Exactly right! I queried a publisher, with the opening chapter attached. I like what I see, he said, how long is it? 90 thousand words? Perfect, he’ll read it in two weeks. So I emailed it to him. A day later he replied—he must not have gotten it all, because there’s only 75 thousand words. So I explained that I used the 250 words per page method. What was I talking about, he’d never heard of such a thing.

Our correspondence deteriorated from there. The last email I got from him was apparently to someone else, saying I was a liar.




Oh, maaaaan. Life is way too precious to deal with lunatics like that. I don't know a single editor who doesn't know about 250/per count; and if by some weird quirk an editor doesn't, then all he needs to do is explain the difference. I haven't had to suffer many ultra-rude editors, but when they're like that, you're better off without 'em.

[jdparadise]

Maybe some of the more accomplished writers here can spur something in me.

Up front: I've completed two novels (haven't sent 'em out much, I'm not that confident in them, hey, lay off, okay?), so I do know how to start, middle, and end books (or at least how to keep BIC until I get to the end, which, for purposes of this question, is good enough). Advice to "just write" isn't what I'm looking for--I well know the value of that advice, and practice it :)

All that said (and oversaid, likely)...

I've outlined my WIP book; I love the outline. I can't wait to get to work on it. But I can't find the voice to the piece.

My typical approach is close-third-person, a little too serious, a little too heavy on the moment-by-moment details. I -could- use that, or some variation... it would be appropriate, written well. But it doesn't feel exactly right--perhaps because there's so much worldbuilding I have to do.

Part of the problem is probably that my first two books were modern-day fantasy/horror; this one is second-earth fantasy, with cultures and mores that would be foreign to the reader. So there's a lot more culture/worldbuilding necessary in this one.

Another part might be that while the opening scene is important for all concerned, and there's good external conflict going on, the important conflict is about maintaining a balance. (My MC is a judge; the opening scene is the end of a trial. His goal is to sentence the guilty party in such a way as to appease the hostile masses gathered around while not being unfair to the guilty person, whose crime was a) provoked, and b) not that bad.)

So I've tried it in first person. I've tried it with an omniscient narrator, present tense. I've tried changing the present tense in the omni to past and focusing on the character more closely, only pulling out for brief removes. (I'm not going to try it second-person.) In any event, nothing seems to feel "right" for this story.

And that's the problem, because once I decide on the narrative voice, I'm going to be stuck with it, or face a massive rewrite. I'd rather get it as right as I can the first time...

So. What haven't I thought of as I try to figure out how to tell this story?

[Kate Nepveu]

Another part might be that while the opening scene is important for all concerned, and there's good external conflict going on, the important conflict is about maintaining a balance. (My MC is a judge; the opening scene is the end of a trial. His goal is to sentence the guilty party in such a way as to appease the hostile masses gathered around while not being unfair to the guilty person, whose crime was a) provoked, and b) not that bad.)You say that this scene is about maintaining a balance. Your main character seems to be aware of that balance and of what he's doing. From the little I know so far, I don't see that he would be an *inappropriate* POV character for the scene, in either first or third. What framing device did you try for first?

(Oh, and there's no reason you can't do fantasy worldbuilding in tight-third, either, but I need to go home and look at bookshelves before I can suggest examples.)

[jdparadise]

You say that this scene is about maintaining a balance. Your main character seems to be aware of that balance and of what he's doing. From the little I know so far, I don't see that he would be an *inappropriate* POV character for the scene, in either first or third. What framing device did you try for first?



Thanks, Kate.

No, it's not that he's an inappropriate choice... it's just that it's not feeling "right." Which could be a function of bad writing, not an inappropriate choice.



Here's the "frame" in the current iteration that I think you're asking for, the bit that defines it for me as omni...All things of import to the children of Mahom happen in the centers of circles, for the circle's center is where Mahom, the axle on whom all worlds turn, can be found.
And so, agrumble with the heat of the summer morning and their dissatisfaction at having the trial held in Mah'hin court, a crowd rings the central circle of the Mah'tin'issit, the Mah'hin crafter's ghetto within the city that the Falyai call Poricy. Some--Mah'hin, mostly--are quiet, chewing slackgrass and meditating upon the spectacle at the center of the circle. This placidity is the face of a people who have long learned the value of peaceful compliance in the face of superior numbers and a hostile occupying force.

But the Falyai--Cheapsider and merchant alike--gathered in their colorful spun-glass clothing to witness the trial are less sedate. It was one of their number, after all, who was last night struck in the face by the Godless heathen at the center of the circle.

The sun-leathered boy kneeling in the grainy red dust, no more than fourteen years of age, is the assailant in question. Puddles of darkness--sweat, turning the dust to mud as red as spilled blood--gather and crack around his knees. His bruised eyes are weary. Black-ink tattoos twist around the clean brown planes of his scalp, curling down his neck and across his lean-muscled torso. In other surroundings his shaven head and tattoos might make Marko Mah'Tenji look fierce despite his scant years and slight build; this morning, looking up at the judge's high chair as he is, they only make the boy look naked.

The Mah'hin judge whose high chair he kneels before, Pel Mah'Gandy by name, looks no more comfortable than does the boy, and if Judge Mah'Gandy is older than Marko it isn't by more than a decade. He shifts in his seat, plucking at the fraying bottom of his rough gray shirt as the crowd mutters around the circle.

I'm honestly not sure if this works or not. If it does, I could probably use this tenor (the narrator is Pel, the MC, who's (SPOILER) narrating the piece from his view in the afterlife (/spoiler)), sliding back and forth between close third and the more removed limited-omniscient.

But I suspect that, for all the pretty words, it doesn't work. Sigh.

Anyway, now you know what I'm talking about :). Thanks for helping.

EDIT: I think I may have realized what I dislike above the above--it just took retyping it to figure it out. Because I'm not starting with character-on-character conflict, maybe the above is just coming across as throat-clearing?

[James D. Macdonald]

So. What haven't I thought of as I try to figure out how to tell this story?

Rather than a different person, you may need a different point-of-view character.

Does this judge have a sidekick? Think about Dr. Watson to Sherlock Holmes or Boswell to Dr. Johnson.

[jdparadise]

Rather than a different person, you may need a different point-of-view character.

Does this judge have a sidekick? Think about Dr. Watson to Sherlock Holmes or Boswell to Dr. Johnson.

Interesting idea. Given the events of the novel as outlined (many private settings, including a love scene, a jail cell, a monastary of sorts, and the shared dreams of the MC and another character), I don't know how that could possibly work. But I'll give it thought. Thanks!

[Kate Nepveu]

In addition, it's probably not a bad idea to think _really hard_ before doing the spoiler thing you refer to above, as it's the kind of thing that a lot of readers will hear about and say "ugh" reflexively. If it's what's necessary, fine, but be sure.

(And, um, another such thing: apostrophes in names.)

[James D. Macdonald]

The Mah'hin judge whose high chair he kneels before, Pel Mah'Gandy by name....

Confusion of antecedents. Is the judge, the chair, or "he" named Pel Mah'Gandy?

(Apostrophes in fantasy names are a cliche. Consider well before using them.)

Don't get tangled in adjectives.

Let's try something a bit more ... direct.



Judge Pel Mah'Gandy pulled at the edge of his shirt and tried to look comfortable. It wasn't working. He shifted in his seat and looked down at the naked boy kneeling before him.

The boy, at fourteen a scant ten years younger than Pel himself, didn't look any more comfortable than the judge felt. Not too surprising. They were both in the center of circle upon circle of grass-chewing Falyai -- merchants and Cheapsiders dressed in colorful spun-glass -- and the sun was beating down. The odors of sweat and mud mingled in the air of the crafter's ghetto.

The boy's tattoos would have made him look fierce in another context. Here, the snakes and scorpions that decorated his shaven head and lean torso looked pathetic.

"Marko Mah'Tenji," Judge Mah'Gandy began. "You have been called before this court to answer the charge of assault. The evidence has been heard. The terms have been given. Have you anything to say before I pass judgment?"

[jdparadise]

Confusion of antecedents. Is the judge, the chair, or "he" named Pel Mah'Gandy?


Eep. I plead draft0.


(Apostrophes in fantasy names are a cliche. Consider well before using them.)


Hrm. They're also indicatative of possessive, though. The language I cooked up for the Mah'(sorry!)hin uses lots of possessives in multiple positions (the city's name has two in it, because it's the city of the people of the god). They are overused, I agree. And possibly I'm stepping in a snakepit. But... other than inventing a new punctuation (do we REALLY want | pipes? :) ) or discarding the language, I don't see a way around it. (by the by, the Falyai don't use the apostrophe... and hate it when the Mah'hin do. :) )


Let's try something a bit more ... direct.

That's exactly it. Obviously, my wording rather than yours, since it's my piece and all, but the more direct approach is definitely called for. Clears it right up from being such a g*d* mess.

Now I just need to figure out how to work all that worldbuilding in without drowning the poor reader, as I did in both implementations I tried.

Thanks so much, Jim and Kate!

[espz]

I don't usually chime in, I'm more of a lurker...

But jdparadise is on the right track when he said he wasn't starting with character on character conflict. Those four paragraphs as posted were HARD for me to get through! It reminded me a bit of the 200 page "shortcut" story in a way! I'm not a fan of the flowery stuff, and Jim's straight forward words were far more interesting to me, which is a lesson I've been working on!

I've noticed that a lot of fantasy books start out with a scene setting, the two that come to mind are David Edding's "Pawn of Prophecy" and Terry Goodkind's "Wizard's First Rule", for some reason they come to mind (mainly cuz I liked 'em! :) But their world building is simple stuff, a boy on a farm, a man in the woods. Then all the magical world building stuff comes AFTER we know who the main character is. We explore the main character in a simple context, one that anyone can understand, and learn what makes that person tick, THEN they get thrown into a whole new world that we get to explore WITH the main character.

Thanks! That's a little breakthrough for MY second draft WIP!

[brinkett]

Now I just need to figure out how to work all that worldbuilding in without drowning the poor reader, as I did in both implementations I tried.

I think Uncle Jim's rewrite gave you a big hint about how to do it without drowning the reader. :)

[Lenora Rose]

Theory:

In your discussion of your opening (Rather than in the scene itself), you mentioned that this particular trial is tricky because the judge has to balance appeasement of the crowds with actual justice (Or mercy?) for the boy. This is the prime reason for the scene.

This hasn't come out yet in the segment you mentioned. I'd say that's more important, up front, than who the crowd are, than where this takes place. The initial setting could be described almost as briefly as "INT: Courtroom". The only information we'll need now is that the people watching are upset and demanding X, the consequences of refusing the demands of the populace are Y, the law regarding this crime says Z, the Judge's opinion is A, the conflict is between all these. The rest of the world-building can come gradually. I'm willing to wait for background if the trial's conclusion is sufficiently riveting.

If you put it in tight third-person POV from the judge, *not* narrating from some future time but stuck in the moment, the conflict might well come forward, as he has no idea what will come next. Sometimes narration from the future means the narrator can leave tidbits and teasers to add tension - sometimes instead, it drains it away, because there's the underlying, "I know how this all turned out...."

[Galoot]

I explained that I used the 250 words per page method. What was I talking about, he’d never heard of such a thing.
Somehow I've been unsubbed from this thread and missed this. Fixed now. What sort of word-count method was this knobbo using, anyway?

[Dawno]

jdparadise -- I'm not qualified to give any critique so I won't try. I am a voracious reader so I'll speak from a reader's perspective and chime in to say, based just on the snippet you posted, I was interested enough to say to myself, "wonder what's going on in this story, what's going to happen next? I think I'd enjoy reading the whole thing."

[Christine N.]

I don't usually chime in, I'm more of a lurker...

But jdparadise is on the right track when he said he wasn't starting with character on character conflict. Those four paragraphs as posted were HARD for me to get through! It reminded me a bit of the 200 page "shortcut" story in a way! I'm not a fan of the flowery stuff, and Jim's straight forward words were far more interesting to me, which is a lesson I've been working on!



absolutely. Often it's said that lawyers don't use one word when fifty will do. Most times, writing is the opposite- don't use fifty words when ten will do. The reader shouldn't get bogged down trying to read the sentence, but be carried along by it, soaking in the action (or suspense, or whatever).

I've been guilty of it, but going back and reading out loud is a a great way of clearing it up. If your tongue stumbles over it, rewrite it.

[Jason M. Dyess]

Yay! I finally got my copy of Logical Chess (and a few other books on the list, including Amphiogory. Well, it has The Unstrung Harp in it.) Time to get reading.

[alaskamatt17]

This is in response to the posts above about the 250/page word count. I tried to quote, but I messed it up somehow so I'm putting this in instead.

I'm going to have trouble with this, I think. If I use the 250/page count, I come up with 140,000 words for my manuscript. If I use MS Word's count, it comes out around 107,000 words. I've already cut about 10,000 MS count words, and I don't think I can cut anymore. I'm sure an editor could, though.

[zizban]

This is in response to the posts above about the 250/page word count. I tried to quote, but I messed it up somehow so I'm putting this in instead.

I'm going to have trouble with this, I think. If I use the 250/page count, I come up with 140,000 words for my manuscript. If I use MS Word's count, it comes out around 107,000 words. I've already cut about 10,000 MS count words, and I don't think I can cut anymore. I'm sure an editor could, though.

You know it. :)

[HConn]

I'm going to have trouble with this, I think. If I use the 250/page count, I come up with 140,000 words for my manuscript. If I use MS Word's count, it comes out around 107,000 words. I've already cut about 10,000 MS count words, and I don't think I can cut anymore. I'm sure an editor could, though.

Matt, do two or three different word counts, and use the one that gives you the number you prefer. Don't worry about it. The story is what matters, and as long as the count isn't egregiously wrong, you're good.

And you should look at your work with an editor's eye. Put it in a drawer and read it like it was written by someone else. Some jackanapes named HConn, for instance.

If you were reading my pages, you'd have all sorts of suggestions on how to tidy them up. Attack your own work with the same ruthless, disinterested objectivity you would give to someone else's.

And take multi-vitamins. They're good for you.

[alaskamatt17]

Well, I let a couple of friends read it, and they only had a few suggestions, mostly at the beginning where it was slow. I cut about twenty single-spaced size 12 pages out what was previously the first forty pages, and they agreed it was much better. They both said that the second half of the novel cruised along anyways, even in the first draft (one of them read the last two hundred pages in a day, the other read the whole book in three days).

There is the danger of having only the opinions of people who like you, so I submitted the first chapter to a writing group on campus that contains many people who do not read sci-fi. One of them loved it--he even asked if he could see extra chapters--and many of the other people thought it was well-written, although it was not their favorite genre. Interestingly, nobody suggested that I take anything out, but there were several suggestions to expand certain sections. Looking back through the chapter, I can see that they're correct: many things which were originally in the rough draft were cut when they should have just been trimmed. I completely left out a whole piece of back story that is vital to understanding the current situation of the world. Before, I had an info dump at the beginning (the bane of so many sci-fi/fantasy writers). When I axed it, the piece lost continuity. I think, though, that the problem is fixed now.

Anyways, thanks for the suggestions in regards to obtaining a "favorable" word count. I think I'll go with the MS count, because the 250/page one puts my book too far beyond the 80,000-100,000 range desired of first-time authors.

[JohnLynch]

Well I haven't written anything since the 29th (I blame university. I've just had too many assignments and tests lately. On the upside: I think I not only maths test, I think I did well in it), so I just churned out a thousand words then. And not only was it easy, it was fun :D

Thanks a lot for the help everyone. I'll definitely be pestering you for some more ;)

[Richard White]

Remember the 80-100K word count is an "average".

Look at the publisher you're aiming at, some list the size of book they're looking for as part of their submission guidelines. Luna Books (Harlequin's new fantasy line) is requesting manuscripts from 130-150K words. The book I'm thinking about pushing their way has to be "increased" to meet their suggested length. (Both of my novels came in around 110k before final edits. . . wound up 400 pages when printed).

Some publishers like shorter novels, some like fat ones (re: Melanie Rawn's books. . . eek!).

However, as has been said in this thread, almost any story in the earlier drafts has fluff that can be trimmed to make it a tighter, faster read. Don't NOT edit, but don't get too hung up if your magnum opus comes in at 78,000 or 103,000.

Research your market.

[Zane Curtis]

I'm aiming for 85 thousand words, and I'll probably reach that goal to within a thousand words either side. But that's just the way I write. I work to a plan, rather than doing a skin-of-the-teeth first draft.

Why write more than I have to? If I did 120 thousand words instead, that would be 25 thousand more words to write, to rewrite, to edit, and to proof. But a publisher wouldn't pay me any more money for it.

[jeffchele]

I have a question on aim for a certain word count or not. I have written one novel and am writtng the sequel, trying to get the first in print, looking for an agent. The first I have put away for a couple of weeks and am planning on doing some reading on it, then edit again if I see the need. When I was writing it I didn't worry about how many words. I had an idea, written down about plot and what I wanted to happen but no idea about length. I looked at some books I had read, Clancy and Grisham and Heinlein, to see what the length of theirs was. I found out that I had no idea what I could shoot for in length. I had an idea and knew where I wanted it to go.

Here's the question. When writing a novel, should you shoot for length or just let the creative nature of writing go were it takes you? It seems to me that your novel should be as long as it needs to be and that it will get edited later anyway. A few times in this forum I have seen people talking about a story length like its a goal for them, is it that important to have a goal like that or is it more important to have all the right elements to complete your story?

[jdparadise]

Why write more than I have to? If I did 120 thousand words instead, that would be 25 thousand more words to write, to rewrite, to edit, and to proof. But a publisher wouldn't pay me any more money for it.

On one hand, I see your point, and agree from an effiiciency and cost/benefit analysis. I'm a tech writer by trade. I know the value of saying things concisely (though you can't tell from the logorhheaic sample I posted :) ).

But the flip side... sometimes a story may need more or fewer words than the first, or second, or third, plan for it. "Write as many words as the story needs" is excellent advice, in other words, but I get a bit nervous when I hear "write 85,000 words because that's the plan." (see "plans, enemies, first contact with.")

What makes me nervous is that, by limiting (or stretching) to a particular number, a writer may avoid (or artificially include) subplots, theme extensions, and characters, under- or over-write for the reader's needs...

I don't know that one can successfully write "for the money," if one is writing fiction; one can make money at it, but usually I think it's in the course of pursuing the story one wants to tell, not the paycheck for its delivery.

Just my opinion, who am I, etc...

[jdparadise]

I've been guilty of it, but going back and reading out loud is a a great way of clearing it up. If your tongue stumbles over it, rewrite it.

Hah! The problem is, I think in sentences like the ones in the sample. I think in parenthetical digressions, and long comma clauses, and em-dashes, and semicolons. Plus, I have a theater background. So not only do I conceive things overly long, but when I go to read them I know where all the secret pauses go so that it sounds "right."

Doesn't make it less impenetrable for the reader, though. :)

Thanks for the feedback, Christine and all!

[jdparadise]

This [tension in balancing justice versus crowd reaction] hasn't come out yet in the segment you mentioned.
...
The only information we'll need now is that the people watching are upset and demanding X, the consequences of refusing the demands of the populace are Y, the law regarding this crime says Z, the Judge's opinion is A, the conflict is between all these. The rest of the world-building can come gradually. I'm willing to wait for background if the trial's conclusion is sufficiently riveting.
...
If you put it in tight third-person POV from the judge, *not* narrating from some future time but stuck in the moment, the conflict might well come forward, as he has no idea what will come next. Sometimes narration from the future means the narrator can leave tidbits and teasers to add tension - sometimes instead, it drains it away, because there's the underlying, "I know how this all turned out...."
Excellent points, Lenora! I got waaaaay too stuck in making sure no one was lost, forgetting that people don't read maps for entertainment.

For those curious, here's the newest version of the first few paragraphs--it's still draft0, so it's still clumsy wording-wise and probably over-adjectived, but I think I've otherwise managed to incorporate the excellent feedback I've received from all of you, to some extent at least :)



Perched atop the Judge's Chair, Pel Mah'Gandy plucked at the fraying gray cloth at the bottom of his shirt and wished he was back in his shop. The boy kneeling in the dirt before him was no criminal despite the black-ink tattoos twisting around his scalp and down his neck, spilling onto his narrow back. He was a fourteen-year-old Mah'hin boy, who'd been stupid enough to be angered by broken Falyai promises.

Idiots, the lot of them. Marko Mah'Tenji, for striking the Falyai merchant in the first place. Eynas Mord, for underpaying the boy to provoke it, and for bringing the matter to the Mah'hin court when it happened. Pel's own brother Tek, for not demanding better discipline among his recruits. The Falyai, Cheapsider and merchant alike, standing around the central circle, grumbling with heat and sweat and the slow crawl of the spectacle before them. The Mah'hin sitting among them, chewing their slackgrass and watching the proceedings with their placid cow's eyes, for electing him judge when they all knew he was too young for it.

Pel knew better than to say anything, but that didn't make it easy to hold back. He bit down on the inside of his cheek in an effort to maintain control.

The boy's barely fourteen, he wanted to snarl at Eynas Mord's turned back. The piggish vegetable-seller was mincing mockingly towar the circle's boundary, to the cooing attention of the half-drunk woman waiting there for him. Promise a two-drop copper vahnak and pay a one-drop tin to a boy of that age. What did you expect to happen?

Pel lowered his eyes, summoning composure.

"Marko Mah'Tenji, you have heard the testimony of your accuser and his witnesses?"


Better, I think.



Thanks again for all your help, folks!

[James D. Macdonald]

Better, I think.


Yeah, better.

By the time you reach The End, you may discover that this scene isn't the start of your book. This scene may not even be in your book. Who knows these things in advance? Continue on. When you have the entire mass of clay on your potter's wheel, then you can shape it.

[jdparadise]

By the time you reach The End, you may discover that this scene isn't the start of your book. This scene may not even be in your book. Who knows these things in advance?

Almost completely apart from my piece (yes, now I feel comfortable moving on, happy me!), that raises an excellent question.

How does one know what the "real" beginning to one's novel is?

I've read the advice that one should start "just as the MC's life is about to change in some irrevocable way," which I can definitely see working for a good number of published books I've read--from The Hobbit (though it does take three pages to get to "something happening") to any number of thrillers. (My novel actually is one of these beginnings, btw. It was just the opening paragraphs that made it seem otherwise)

But Stephen King's The Gunslinger's chapter 1 is a man following another man, with nothing happening at all except him, maybe, drawing closer. To stay with Mr. King (and Mr. Straub, no telling who wrote the first chapter, but I suspect Mr. King), Black House starts with a many-page omniscient zoom-in to the action. I know there are books by others than Mr. King that don't start at this point of no return, but I'm drawing a blank besides these.

In any event, novel-length stories can apparently be effectively told when chapter 1 does not start at this point of no return.

So how does one know if a "starting somewhere else" beginning is the "proper" beginning for a story, or if it needs to be hacked and beaten into a "point of no return" beginning?

[James D. Macdonald]

So how does one know if a "starting somewhere else" beginning is the "proper" beginning for a story, or if it needs to be hacked and beaten into a "point of no return" beginning?

Your story begins where all the preceeding events can't be summarized in a single sentence.

(BTW -- King and Straub have earned the right to slow beginnings through their reputations for strong closes. This isn't something that a first novel will enjoy. If your novel must start slowly, consider holding onto it until you've sold a few others. Or not. A sufficiently brilliant manuscript....)

(There are, of course, other sorts of openings besides car chases and explosions. What you really need is a sense of forward motion.)

[Kate Nepveu]

I haven't read _Black House_, but I have read all but the last of the Dark Tower books (just waiting for time to read the last, argh). The original _Gunslinger_ (I haven't and won't read the revised, but that's another story (http://www.livejournal.com/users/kate_nepveu/77415.html)) has kind of a reputation for a difficult start--both because it's very different from King's novels and reader expectations are powerful things, and because of the opening section itself, which is somewhat less accessible for its spare, dry weirdness.

All the same, I would say that "The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed." is a justly-famous opening sentence.

[maestrowork]

(There are, of course, other sorts of openings besides car chases and explosions. What you really need is a sense of forward motion.)

Precisely.

Novice writers (like me) tend to have false starts because: 1) we think everything is important to the story, including what happened 1000 years ago to the hero's family; 2) we have a need to develop and explore and talk about our characters before the story even begins; 3) we read books by "established" writers, like King or Grisham (his "A Painted House" crawled at the beginning), who could afford to start slow, sometimes with long prologues and what not; 4) we see too many movies when the first 10 minutes are nothing but set up...

...a crane shot over a beautiful neighborhood with perfect gardens and flowers... grandma sitting by the window drinking tea... that's okay if the next thing is grandma getting shot. But if that's not how your story begins (instead, you have grandma talking about baking a pie), you have a false start.

I've been there, and my advice is, just write it. If you need to write 20, 40, 60 pages of character development and settings and such, do it. If it helps you get into the heads of the characters or ramp up to the main story, do it. You can always cut that out and find the "REAL" beginning of your book somewhere, once you've written the entire thing.

[Sharon Mock]

Ah, beginnings. ::rubs scab on forehead from beating head against that particular brick wall a few too many times::

Oddly, I've had to push the beginning continually backward, away from the inciting incident. When I've started too soon, there's not enough build-up, not enough sense of why these things matter.

I'm most of the way there, although I still need to push backward a little. But at this point it's just getting rid of unintentional red herrings, which is a big improvement. (Especially over the first attempt, which started with absolutely no forward momentum whatsoever, set up my POV character as entirely helpless and powerless, and grounded the draft after 20,000 words...)

[Lydia Joyce]

I was ego-googling to find the latest reviews of my book (no one ever tells me when it's reviewed!), and I found the old site where allion mentioned my letter about Jane Doe a full year ago. I'd totally forgotten about it.

This is what she said:

"Salon.com printed letters received in response to the article and you don't have to watch an ad to read them. The one that expressed things best for me was from Lydia Joyce:

"I mean, this is a woman who got an advance on her first book of more than $100,000. Forget midlist. Many bestsellers top out at $100k per book.

In excitement about this book, her publisher promoted her hugely. She got the Big Push most of us dream about, publicity, radio spots, tours, TV.

And guess what? She still sold all of 10,000 copies.

Now, after that kind of publicity, I have only one conclusion: The general population believes that she sucks. And I don't have much sympathy.""


I want to weigh in again against the doom and gloom that so many people are spreading around still about the condition of the market. *ggg* When I wrote that letter, I didn't have a book out. In fact, I hadn't even had an OFFER for publication yet. But back then, I was already convinced that if you wrote a book people want to read and if your publishing house didn't get disillusioned by you and just try to get out of the contract as soon as possible, you would sell. If no one wants to buy your book, then it just isn't good enough according to the general population. The end.

I now have a book out now--my first one. It came out this week. And my own case has proven me right. :-)))

I am a midlist author, and my advance was a ***fraction*** of Jane Doe's. As far as publisher support goes, my house liked my book a lot, but I was not even second lead for my month. But you know what? I was one of the top 100 novels in my genre on the Neilson BookSCAN list. My FIRST WEEK. I was treated well by my publisher and I have a GREAT cover, but there's something else, too, that's making this book a success--*people want to read it.* And in the end, that's what it's all about. Midlist authors still have ample distribution. They still have decent royalties. They just need to write something that other people want to read!

So anyhow, take heart! There's no need to starve as an author, and many of the most bitter people out there simply do not wish to face the fact that people just don't like their books, and so they decide to pin the blame elsewhere. You can write what you want, always, of course. But you'll be the biggest success--IF that is a goal for you--if you write what other people want to read! :-)

[James D. Macdonald]

And in the end, that's what it's all about. Midlist authors still have ample distribution. They still have decent royalties. They just need to write something that other people want to read!


Sing it, sister! I'll join in on the chorus.

[James D. Macdonald]

Too funny, and too true. (http://www.livejournal.com/users/blackholly/50626.html)

[katiemac]

Contract actually from Satan. You sign anyway.

Hey, at this point, his agency looks kind of tempting. Some authors will do anything.

But.... Satan? Wait, isn't he a rep for PublishAmerica?

Never mind.

[Christine N.]

I haven't read _Black House_, but I have read all but the last of the Dark Tower books (just waiting for time to read the last, argh). The original _Gunslinger_ (I haven't and won't read the revised, but that's another story (http://www.livejournal.com/users/kate_nepveu/77415.html)) has kind of a reputation for a difficult start--both because it's very different from King's novels and reader expectations are powerful things, and because of the opening section itself, which is somewhat less accessible for its spare, dry weirdness.

All the same, I would say that "The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed." is a justly-famous opening sentence.

Black House was great. The Talisman is one of my all time favorite books. And the Dark Tower is one of the best quests of all time, IMO. Yeah, I'm a fan (but not his #1 fan LOL)

I don't think the opening of Gunslinger is difficult at all, and this is a great, well -crafted opening line.

-It conveys action (the man in black fled... gunslinger followed)
-It conveys urgency (the man in black didn't walk, he didn't saunter, or shuffle, trudge or even run, he fled; the imagery is one of hunted and hunter.
- It makes me ask questions - who is the man and why is he fleeing from the gunslinger? Who is the gunslinger and why is he chasing the man in black?

You get so much from so few words. And, although I know we've been told that the smallest increment of a book is the paragraph, it makes me want to read the book. If all you told me was that line, I would probably pick up the book, if I hadn't already. It's got to be one of the best hooks ever.

[Zane Curtis]

What makes me nervous is that, by limiting (or stretching) to a particular number, a writer may avoid (or artificially include) subplots, theme extensions, and characters, under- or over-write for the reader's needs...

Actually, it's in trying to avoid under or over-writing that I came about this rather peculiar method I have for writing novels. I know of no other writer who does it the way I do (though Michael Moorcock comes closest). Believe me, this is not the first time I've heard, "But how can you write to rule like that?" Well, I'll tell you how.

When I first sat down to commit an act of writing with intent, the first chapter I ever seriously wrote came to 12 thousand words. So, naturally, I decided to keep it regular and write all the chapters of that novel at 12 thousand words. That was my first big mistake. The thing is, that first chapter aside, I couldn't write chapters of 12 thousand words and make them coherent. I kept introducing long digressions, lectures, pointless sub-plots, and other stretching techniques just to fill out the space. By the end of chapter three I had so many characters and loose plot threads that my story collapsed into an impenetrable junkheap of incoherence and confusion. I had to scrap the whole thing and start over.

I asked myself, if 12 thousand words is too long, what exactly is my natural length as a writer? How many words are enough to cover all the details of plot, character, setting, and imagery I need to bring the story to life? Also, how many words are few enough that I have no temptation at all to pad? That was the start of a long process of trial and error. I tried writing in blocks of 5 thousand words, 3 thousand, 2 thousand, 1 thousand, 8 hundred, and 5 hundred. In the end, I settled on 1 thousand words, because 8 hundred word blocks caused me to write a little too sparsely, and 2 thousand word blocks were just long enough to hang myself with. I've written in blocks of 1 thousand words ever since. Of course, I give myself breathing room there. It's very rare for me to come within 10 words of that target, but the thing is, it all averages out in a novel length work, and I can be confident of writing to within a thousand words of my target.

The thing is, there is no right or wrong way to write a novel. You have to do the work yourself, and come up with your own method that emphasises your strengths and minimises your weaknesses. As for me, I've played and written music for 20 years. From that, I've learned how to be creative -- and how to improvise -- within the rigid limits of keys, progressions, and song structures. That's as natural to me as breathing now. But I have also learned how to tackle it from the other end, and make the structure serve the muse of music... or of writing, for that matter.

Building and tweaking structures is the particular strength I bring to this whole business of writing novels. Now, since I write in blocks of 1 thousand words, that's the level I want to be thinking at when I'm writing my first draft. I want to be able to concentrate on the present block of 1 thousand words, and how that relates to the last block, and to the next block. I don't want to be distracted from that by having to worry about where the story as a whole is going. So, for me, the natural thing to do is to build a structure that sits above my thousand word blocks and organises them into a coherent novel with a beginning, a middle, and an end, and rising dramatic tension to carry the reader right the way through.

You can join three blocks of a thousand words into a single coherent progression, and that gives me a 3 thousand word chapter. I can go one better, and do 5 thousand word chapters in the same way, or I can use a block by itself for a short, 1 thousand word chapter. I can organise chapters into parts of 17 thousand words each. Five parts of 17 thousand words gives me the 85 thousand words I mentioned above. But I can break it down any number of ways, to arrive at pretty much any word count I would care to name. So, of course, when someone asks me how long a novel is going to be, my natural response is "How long do you want it?"

When I have a story idea, the first thing I do is break it down into five equal parts, or three, or whatever the structure dictates. If a story idea falls more naturally into three equal parts than into five, then I'll use a structure based on threes for preference. But in practice, I haven't yet met with an idea that I can't break down into any number of parts I want. It's no big deal for me to think up a dozen ways I can break a general story idea into five steps, or to then turn around and think up a dozen more ways to break it into three steps. When Uncle Jim or anyone else talks about writing a story as large as it needs to be, it doesn't compute for me. That's just not how I work. I make a distinction between ideas fit for short stories, as opposed to ideas fit for novels. But whether a novel is 60 thousand words or 120 thousand, just depends on how I decide to break it down. It has no impact at all on all the creative stuff with characters and imagery and so forth, which for me is all happening when I sit down to write a 1 thousand word block.

"Formula fiction!" you interject? Pfft. As far as I'm concerned, the main thing wrong with formula fiction is how crude and unsubtle the formulas generally are. Structuring is my thing. I know how to use syncopation and asymmetry in such a way that you would never know you were reading formula fiction, until a mathematician points it out to you. I know how to build structures that become an integral part of the artistic expression, in the same way that exposed structural members are integral to aesthetics of modern architecture. I know how to use chaos theory and emergent properties to build a complex, reactive structure that almost behaves as though it was a living thing. I can turn "formula" into a virtue, and I can do it without disturbing the primary task of telling a story, because it's hidden away as an elaboration of the basic scaffolding of a regular novel. This is my strength, remember. This is the unique perspective I bring to this business of writing novels.

[Zane Curtis]

Yeah, I know. You're all sitting there going :crazy:

But I know what I'm doing.

[Ken Schneider]

Somewhat on topic, When should you start shopping your work around?

1. I have 30,000 words in on my current project-bic nightly- and am curious to know if I should dig into my copy of Writers Market '05 to try and match it with a possible publisher-agent?

2. Should I wait until the project is finished? I have read that one should not write another work until the first is sold. The thinking being that you may give up on the previous work.

3. If I am to send out the work, I am under the impression that it be run through the ringer of re-writes, my best edit?

Thanks, Ken

[HConn]

1. Don't try to match an unfinished work. Keep your eye on the finish line and finishe the book first.

2. When the first draft is finished, take a little time to research who you're going to send it to. After the first draft, you'll have a good idea what you're writing. You can do the *research* while you rewrite, but don't query or send samples or anything. And please don't wait for a book to sell before starting the next.

3. Definitely.

After the book is as good as it can be, put it on the market. Then, while the book is making the rounds, start your next. Marketing a book can take so long that you might have finished the next before you sell the previous. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

That's my advice.

[MacAllister]

Changling posted:1. I have 30,000 words in on my current project-bic nightly- and am curious to know if I should dig into my copy of Writers Market '05 to try and match it with a possible publisher-agent?

2. Should I wait until the project is finished? I have read that one should not write another work until the first is sold. The thinking being that you may give up on the previous work.

3. If I am to send out the work, I am under the impression that it be run through the ringer of re-writes, my best edit?


I'm with HConn, Changling--
1. Finish the puppy...write your butt off and get 'er done. Then let it rest and revise/rewrite it. Repeat until you're confident it's absolutely the best you can make it. Then get a beta reader or two you trust to be absolutely honest about characters they hate, plot holes, and the places they skipped over because it got boring. Rewrite again, as needed. Then send it out.

2. Research time, note-making, outlining, etc is NOT writing...so you can be doing homework for the next book, while you write this one. (It's working out pretty well for me to do it that way, anyway.) The day you put the stamp on your completely manuscript and send it away, start writing the next one. It will help keep you amused and occupied so you don't just sit by the mailbox obsessing. Also, when the first one sells, you have a completed or almost completed second book, and you can say: "Gosh, by the way...I have this other book, too, and..." The day you send the second book out, start writing your third.

3. Absolutely, positively don't send anything to anyone that you haven't tweaked and pushed and pulled to make into your best words.

Good luck! :)

[HConn]

Research time, note-making, outlining, etc is NOT writing...

I don't agree with this, but that's my situation. I get a set amount of time every day to work on writing, so that time gets used for first drafts, rewriting, outlining, whatever. (Not research).

I'd love to have extra time in the day for both writing and outlining, but I don't. Whatever works for you.

[MacAllister]

I don't agree with this, but that's my situation. I get a set amount of time every day to work on writing, so that time gets used for first drafts, rewriting, outlining, whatever. (Not research).
*sniff*
HConn just publicly disagreed with me.

Actually--I didn't mean to make that sound as hard and fast as it came out in text. I have to keep to that rule for myself, or I'll plan things to death, and never actually get to the point of WRITING them.

Oh heck, HConn--hardly anyone ever DOES agree with me. :D I do have more free time than most, admittedly. It helps not to have a pesky family-life that demands time and attention.

[reph]

It helps not to have a pesky family-life that demands time and attention.
Everybody listen to Mac. All she's got is pigs, dogs, horses, sheep... Betcha those critters just about take care of themselves.

[James D. Macdonald]

Somewhat on topic, When should you start shopping your work around?

First-time novelist?

1. I have 30,000 words in on my current project-bic nightly- and am curious to know if I should dig into my copy of Writers Market '05 to try and match it with a possible publisher-agent?

For-sure, start researching. What publisher would you most like to see with this novel? What's your number two choice? Your number three? Who would be your ideal agent? Who's number two? Number three?


2. Should I wait until the project is finished? I have read that one should not write another work until the first is sold. The thinking being that you may give up on the previous work.

Yes, if this is your first, wait until it's finished. This falls under the heading of "never bet against yourself." What's the best outcome you can imagine? You send off a query to your number one choice publisher or agent, and you get a reply: "Please send the entire work."

What are you going to say? "Ummm... wait six months"? For a first novel, have it in the bag and polished.

The day after you finish your first novel, start writing your second novel.

3. If I am to send out the work, I am under the impression that it be run through the ringer of re-writes, my best edit?

You don't want to send out first draft, if that's your question. Get it to the point where it's the best you can make it. (If you're putting in a comma in the morning and taking it out in the afternoon, you're at -- you're past -- that point.)

[maestrowork]

Uncle Jim said:

Yes, if this is your first, wait until it's finished. This falls under the heading of "never bet against yourself." What's the best outcome you can imagine? You send off a query to your number one choice publisher or agent, and you get a reply: "Please send the entire work."

What are you going to say? "Ummm... wait six months"? For a first novel, have it in the bag and polished.

What if it's not your first? And your first novel is getting published? Would you start querying about your next novel which is still a WIP?

[James D. Macdonald]

If it's your second or subsequent novel, especially if your first has a decent track record, you can start querying with three-and-an-outline without writing a word more. If someone offers a contract you write the book, living on the advance money while doing so.

Of course, finishing the book that you're sending around as a query wouldn't be a bad plan.

Make sure you aren't walking all over an option clause while you're doing this.

And ... having an agent becomes Very Useful Indeed 'round about that point in your career.

[Patricia]

Jim, anyone; what is the term for this malady in the writing world?

My debacle during the PA “revision” fiasco, caused me to become so paranoid that I now find myself, instead of just writing, trying to do perfect copy as I go. I can’t seem to stop proofing as I write. I have done so many rewrites of my current wip that it hardly resembles the first draft at all! It should have been done at least 6 weeks ago. Yet, I will have at least that amount of time left when I commit to a writing schedule. Is this a common thing, to be caught in the proof/revise as you go? Any suggestions for getting into the old habit of just letting it flow would help.

[zizban]

Until recently I used to proof and revise as I went, also. Then Uncle Jim told us to stop and just write. We have permission to write garbage and things that make us cringe. Don't stop until you reach "The End". Its working for me.

[detante]

I can’t seem to stop proofing as I write.

A few things you could try are
1. Turn of your monitor so you can't see as you type.
2. Try speed writing-set a time for 15 minutes and see how many words you can write in that time. Try to beat your best time.
3. Try writing by hand with pen and paper.

I hope you find something that helps!

[maestrowork]

Or everytime you find yourself point and click and type to proof/rewrite... suck on a big lemon.

[Patricia]

Until recently I used to proof and revise as I went, also. Then Uncle Jim told us to stop and just write. We have permission to write garbage and things that make us cringe. Don't stop until you reach "The End". Its working for me.

A few things you could try are
1. Turn of your monitor so you can't see as you type.
2. Try speed writing-set a time for 15 minutes and see how many words you can write in that time. Try to beat your best time.
3. Try writing by hand with pen and paper.

I hope you find something that helps!

Thank you both so much -- it is a real obstruction for me now. I'm sure I'll work throught it eventually, and your input will help.

[Ken Schneider]

[QUOTE=James D. Macdonald]First-time novelist?

Uncle, all who answered, Thanks. As you know with the "other guys" I wrote a book.
So yes I would have to say my first novel in the sense that I'm really testing the market. It's not like I'm haven't written quite a few.

I really have faith in this one. I'm behind it 100%. I'm excited about the two ideas I put together to come up with the plot. It's my best work to date.
So.... I want to do it right the first time.

More ?

1. Then, when finished, should I try to send it to houses that take submissions without an agent?

2. I do have a party that is interested that is an agent, Janet Reid-jetreid agency. I have quired, she said she would read the first three when ready. Should I go with her if she says she'll take it on? I do know she has sold some works, and asks for no money.

3. Okay, back to a question I ask previously. I said that my story seems to rush to an end at 60,000 words. Do I, go back and flesh out? Add backstory? I'm a to the point writer. I.E. (The sky was clear.) Not,( The sky was wrapped in a deep blue blanket that encompassed the horizon.) I guess, I'm asking, where and how should I enlarge the word count without too much flowery content and needless words?

Thanks Ken

[James D. Macdonald]

First-time novelist?

Uncle, Thanks. As you know with the "other guys" I wrote a book.
So yes I would have to say my first novel in the sense that I'm really testing the market. It's not like I'm haven't written quite a few.


It doesn't matter if you have a hundred novels in your desk drawer; you're still a first-time novelist until your first novel is published. (And, sad to say, that place in Maryland doesn't count.)


I really have faith in this one. I'm behind it 100%. I'm excited about the two ideas I put together to come up with the plot. It's my best work to date.
So.... I want to do it right the first time.


Go, you!

More ?

1. Then, when finished, should I try to send it to houses that take submissions without an agent?

Depends. Is it a good house? Do they get distribution? Would you be proud to be published by them regardless of the agent situation?

2. I do have a party that is interested that is an agent, Janet Reid-jetreid agency. I have queried, she said she would read the first three when ready. Should I go with her if she says she'll take it on? I do know she has sold some works, and asks for no money.

I assume that you've researched her. Wouldn't hurt to try her first if you think you'd be sympatico.


3. Okay, back to a question I ask previously. I said that my story seems to rush to an end at 60,000 words. Do I, go back and flesh out? Add backstory? I'm a to the point writer. I.E. (The sky was clear.) Not,( The sky was wrapped in a deep blue blanket that encompassed the horizon.) I guess, I'm asking, where and how should I enlarge the word count without too much flowery content and needless words?


You don't make stories longer by padding them with more words. You make 'em longer by adding more plot. Could a minor character use a subplot of his own? Only add backstory if it improves the book and advances the plot.

[Patricia]

Or everytime you find yourself point and click and type to proof/rewrite... suck on a big lemon.
Gotta do better than that Maestro! Out of lemons. . .

[Ken Schneider]

Thanks Jim, well understood. Time to get my BIC work done. More questions later rest assured.

Ken

[zizban]

Gotta do better than that Maestro! Out of lemons. . .

Suck your thumb? Oh wait, that's what I do ;)

[Patricia]

You don't make stories longer by padding them with more words. You make 'em longer by adding more plot. Could a minor character use a subplot of his own? Only add backstory if it improves the book and advances the plot.


The above quote is one of the first valuable lessons I learned about writing. It is a good reminder now and then.

Thanks, Jim.

[HConn]

2. Try speed writing-set a time for 15 minutes and see how many words you can write in that time. Try to beat your best time.

A kitchen timer is great for this.

You don't make stories longer by padding them with more words. You make 'em longer by adding more plot.

A good way to find extra plot is to look at the themes in your work. Are you writing about loyalty? Honor and Duty? Forbidden love? Control and freedom? Try to find ways to use your supporting characters to fully explore these ideas. It gives a book depth as well as length.

[black winged fighter]

Whew!

Through steady application of the BIC method and my license to write subpar, I have just completed the first draft of my current WIP. It has along way to go, but this thread has convinced me that I can get there, despite past problems, etc.

Thank you, everyone!

[alaskamatt17]

Congratulations, black winged fighter! I'm about 40,000 words into my current WIP, and haven't hit the wall per se, but have definitely not been getting my standard 2,000 words per day when I BIC. At least I'm past the stretch I was dreading most. From here on out I get to just write a good ol' fashioned adventure.

[zizban]

Whew!

Through steady application of the BIC method and my license to write subpar, I have just completed the first draft of my current WIP. It has along way to go, but this thread has convinced me that I can get there, despite past problems, etc.

Thank you, everyone!

Wow, congrats! My WIP, using the Uncle Jim method, is up to 15,000 words. Its the fastest I've written a story, so far.

[James D. Macdonald]

Now that you have a first draft, print it out, take a red pencil, go sit in a coffee house, and read it, marking it up the whole way with Things That You've Noticed and Want to Fix.

[Lenora Rose]

This is in response to the posts above about the 250/page word count. I tried to quote, but I messed it up somehow so I'm putting this in instead.

I'm going to have trouble with this, I think. If I use the 250/page count, I come up with 140,000 words for my manuscript. If I use MS Word's count, it comes out around 107,000 words. I've already cut about 10,000 MS count words, and I don't think I can cut anymore. I'm sure an editor could, though.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the 250/page method isn't quite a flat 250/page. It's 250/COMPLETE page, plus a different technique per partial page?

[Mike Martyn]

If round about 50,000 words one of your main characters suddenly "evolves" into to someone completely different, ie; he has a dark past that's popped out of nowhere (from the writer's point of view) and advances the plot wonderfully, going back and changing things, would that constute a rewrite or is a rewrite something more minor such as realizing your chronology is off and going back to change June to August.

The temptation for the first one is extreme.

[Sharon Mock]

If round about 50,000 words one of your main characters suddenly "evolves" into to someone completely different, ie; he has a dark past that's popped out of nowhere (from the writer's point of view) and advances the plot wonderfully, going back and changing things, would that constute a rewrite or is a rewrite something more minor such as realizing your chronology is off and going back to change June to August.

The temptation for the first one is extreme.

Can you keep plowing through, or has the revelation stopped you in your tracks?

Do you have to change significant events -- what the character says and does -- or is it just a question of foreshadowing and adding backstory?

Most of my characters have grown and evolved during the writing process. My rule is to plow forward unless things are so broken that I just can't. Fix it in post, I always say. (However, I enjoy revision.)

Disclaimer: I am not Uncle Jim.

[zizban]

When the writing gets going, characters tend to start getting independent and surprise you. I agreee with Sharon Mock; unless the change will mean a totally different story, plow on. On revision you can work the changes in.

[black winged fighter]

Now that you have a first draft, print it out, take a red pencil, go sit in a coffee house, and read it, marking it up the whole way with Things That You've Noticed and Want to Fix.

Printing it out as I type, and will definitely be doing some heavy-duty revision tonight. Also, the list is already underway....

[pianoman5]

If round about 50,000 words one of your main characters suddenly "evolves" into someone completely different, ie; he has a dark past that's popped out of nowhere (from the writer's point of view)...


Strange when they do that, isn't it? The first time it happened to me I regarded the character with a mixture of admiration and contempt. I thought, "Who does he think he is?" and "Whose story is this, anyway?"

Then it dawned on me. It's his story. It's their story, all of the b*****ds. I am merely a vehicle, a hollow shell, the stenographer (with atttitude) who is typing it up for them.

At the time I went back to fix it up, but I now realise it's better to make copious notes and then just press on. Because some of your other characters, wayward children that they are, may also show later signs of becoming more complex characters than you gave them credit for when you launched them into the world, and you might have to re-work earlier sections to accommodate their peccadillos and interactions, too.

[black winged fighter]

The same thing has happens to me, and I am really happy when it does; complex characters make for deeper plot.
Also, one of my favourite authors (Pratchett) wrote that he never expected some of his characters to become so major/deep. Since those very characters are my favourites, I see it as a good sign when a minor character turns around and demands a raise.

[James D. Macdonald]

If round about 50,000 words one of your main characters suddenly "evolves" into to someone completely different, ie; he has a dark past that's popped out of nowhere (from the writer's point of view) and advances the plot wonderfully, going back and changing things, would that constute a rewrite or is a rewrite something more minor such as realizing your chronology is off and going back to change June to August.

The temptation for the first one is extreme.


Woo! It's great when that happens.

I'll tell you what I do when it happens to me:

I have the character say "Woo! My whole backstory just changed. Boy, do I have a dark past!"

Then continue as if the first half of the book were already re-arranged. Write from and incorporating your new-found insight and knowledge.

You may have more revelations before the book is finished. Too bad if re-wrote the first half, then had to re-write it again. This is what I mean when I say that until you hit "The End" you don't know what you've got.

Then -- you go back and take the thing in to the shop. You're going to have to do a whole lot of front-end alignment. That's okay!

(Coffee houses are really great because they get you out of your usual scenery, and you can rent a table all day if you just keep drinking the coffee. Besides, being a writer in a coffee house is traditional.)

[James D. Macdonald]

On the interaction between the author and the character:

Railroad Bill and the Kitten (http://sniff.numachi.com/%7Erickheit/dtrad/pages/tiRRBILLKT;ttRRBILLKT.html)

[tjwriter]

On the interaction between the author and the character:

Railroad Bill and the Kitten (http://sniff.numachi.com/%7Erickheit/dtrad/pages/tiRRBILLKT;ttRRBILLKT.html)

:roll:

Where do you find all this stuff UJ? It just kills me.

[James D. Macdonald]

Sometimes I add myself as a character in the first drafts. Not as a character who'll be in the final version, but as myself: The bearded author, who sits on the couch in the room and discusses with the other characters how the plot is going, whether the dialog needs work, and what they think about their own characterizations.

(The last chapter of the first draft is always the Cast Party, where the characters show up as their normal everyday selves, wearing Hawaiian shirts, drinking beer, and carrying on. And the last line of every book is always where the characters raise their glasses and say "Here's to the author! Without that poor overworked underpaid SOB we'd all be out of a job!")

All this stuff is removed in the second and subsequent drafts.

[maestrowork]

How true!! I had a 2000+ word "epilogue" cast party. In the second draft, I cut that out. But my characters were happy to have that party.

[Julian Black]

Is this a common thing, to be caught in the proof/revise as you go? Any suggestions for getting into the old habit of just letting it flow would help.I proofread as I type, and make minor revisions. I just can't let typos or spelling or grammar errors slide, and if I realize another word would work better I go ahead and change it. I can't not do it--it drives me insane.

One thing I can think of, however, that may help you overcome the urge to fix things as you go is to disconnect your mouse and rely solely on the keyboard. Revising things without a mouse isn't impossible, but you have to stop and think about it (or at least I really do), and it isn't as quick doing it solely by keyboard.

I started disconnecting the mouse while writing research papers--or, rather, destroying too many hours of my life playing Free Cell when I was supposed to be writing said research papers--but it might be helpful in breaking other bad habits, too. It's worth a shot, anyway.

[James D. Macdonald]

I proofread as I type, and make minor revisions. I just can't let typos or spelling or grammar errors slide, and if I realize another word would work better I go ahead and change it. I can't not do it--it drives me insane.


Heck, I do that too. It isn't lke the old days when you had to bring out the correction fluid or an eraser shield and eraser when you made a typo. (Anyone but me still remember eraser shields?)

But I don't go back to the previous day's work and fiddle with it.

[Zane Curtis]

But I don't go back to the previous day's work and fiddle with it.

I always do. It's not for the sake of fiddling with it, though it usually amounts to that. I just spend ten minutes reading back over the previous day's work to get myself back into the voice and the story.

I do try to keep the editorialising to a minimum... sometimes I even succeed. ;)

[Sailor Kenshin]

Anyone but me still remember eraser shields?)

Me!

I still think it's one of David Lynch's best movies. :D

[Mike Martyn]

Sometimes I add myself as a character in the first drafts. Not as a character who'll be in the final version, but as myself: The bearded author, who sits on the couch in the room and discusses with the other characters how the plot is going, whether the dialog needs work, and what they think about their own characterizations.

(The last chapter of the first draft is always the Cast Party, where the characters show up as their normal everyday selves, wearing Hawaiian shirts, drinking beer, and carrying on. And the last line of every book is always where the characters raise their glasses and say "Here's to the author! Without that poor overworked underpaid SOB we'd all be out of a job!")

All this stuff is removed in the second and subsequent drafts.


At the end of my novel, as of now at least, one of my 14 year old characters is going to die. He'll die heroically but he'll be just as dead. I really like this kid so it's going to hurt!

I like the idea of writing a cast party as the last chapter. At least I'll get to see him again. He won't be wearing his plaid shirt from the 1960's of course. He'll most likely be toting a skateboard, wearing his Mettellica ski hat and toking up. He can tell me what a bastard I am!

Or am I just neurotic?

[Michael Pullmann]

Jim-

First up, apologies if this has already been asked. It's a long thread, and I just found it today.

Without going into too much detail, I'm as green as it gets. I said "I want to be a writer" for the longest time, but am only now realizing what that really means. Because I'm insane, I'm not throwing my hands up into the air and going into something both more lucrative and less demanding, like pornography. Also, within the extremely raw material I've been perpetrating until now, I do really believe there's some talent. And bottom line, I love doing it.

But I've got one question that's bearing down on my mind like a freight train on a puppy dog. You touched on it way back on page one, saying that back in the day, you set your alarm clock two hours earlier so you'd get those two hours to write. I can do that, or, if it turns out another way works better, hit my head to the pillow two hours later. There's my time to sit at the computer and put words on the screen.

But what about the rest of it? There's rewriting, revision, research, reading (for fun and profit), and oh yes, working that 9-5 (or, more likely these days, 8-6), eating, sleeping, cleaning various objects that must be cleaned, writing checks to people who simply insist on not giving me things like a place to live and health care for free, obtaining supplies for all of the above, and the ubiquitous "having a life" (which would, ideally, include somehow finding true love, which I currently define as a person willing to do some of those things for me when I just plain can't because I've got a spaceship hurtling towards a black hole over here that isn't going to save itself). And that's just now, when my stuff sucks*. Once it's good**, add in agents, contracts, trips to the post office and bank, and all the legal/tax stuff that comes with being a freelancer, even one with a day job.

Simply put: How the frell is this possible? Am I nuts, or does that add up to more than 24 hours in a day? I'm OK with making sacrifices, but we're almost talking Mayan proportions here. Or at least that's how I feel.

The writing (and in this sentence I mean everything that relates to moving a story from the beginning of its creation to its end) has to fit in there somewhere. For someone who's still a working stiff, where? How do I spin straw into time?

[size=1]* defined as "won't make it past the slush pile"
**see above definition, but replace "won't" with "will"

[HConn]

Michael, it's all about the hard choices.

Can you give up some of your TV? Can you live in a messy home? Can you super-organize yourself?

What about using your lunch hour for editing? What about taping all the shows you would normally watch, and watching them on tape? (By taping shows and never finding time for them, I learned what I really enjoyed watching and what I could do without.)

The truth is, you will have to give things up if you want to write. What you need to do is value the writing more than you value those other things.

[Christine N.]

(Anyone but me still remember eraser shields?)



Sure... Eraser Shields. She starred in the Blue Lagoon, right?

[zizban]

Sure... Eraser Shields. She starred in the Blue Lagoon, right?

And she showed her boobies too :D

[Galoot]

...the ubiquitous "having a life"...
There. Cut that part out and you'll have the time to write. When you want something badly enough you make time.

[James D. Macdonald]

Simply put: How the frell is this possible? Am I nuts, or does that add up to more than 24 hours in a day? I'm OK with making sacrifices, but we're almost talking Mayan proportions here. Or at least that's how I feel.


It isn't possible. So don't let it concern you.

I read while standing in the chow line. I thought about revision while driving, so could quickly write 'em down.

After you've reached The End if all you have is those two hours per day and nothing more -- I give you permission to do 15 minutes of original writing, and spend the other hour forty-five on rewrites.

You will have to make decisions about what's important to you. TV went out of my life a long time ago.

The important thing is that you do some writing every day. To call yourself a writer, only one thing is required: That you write.

[BlueTexas]

I gave up TV time and quit cooking. I still have to clean, work six days a week, grocery shop, do laundry, read. I usually only see my friends once every few weeks, and I still have time for my garden and a nightly walk. I don't always get 2 hours in, but I always get at least 500 words or I'm not allowed to go to bed.

My husband started referring to me as 'woman with pencil' rather than wife a while ago :)

[Julian Black]

(Anyone but me still remember eraser shields?)Yes, I actually do. Those and the hard white rubber eraser "pencils" that had a brush at one end to sweep the eraser crumbs away. Since I was always a lousy typist, I get the fan-tods just thinking about them.

While cleaning out the basement of a house, I found a typewriter eraser shaped like a wheel, with the brush attached to a little handle. It's truly a relic. I tied it onto a black suede thong, added some primitive-looking beads, and occasionally wear it as a necklace--nothing like a fragment of dead technology to make a fashion statement, after all. Once in a while, I actually encounter someone who knows what it is.

[Michael Pullmann]

Yeah, thanks to everyone who said stuff. To be honest, just writing the question down made me think about ways I can fit things in. So I'm feeling better about that now.


First step, I think, is going to be allowing myself to be imperfect.

[E.G. Gammon]

---------------------------------------------

Project Advice, Uncle Jim?


Everyone who's read my posts knows I started developing my own limited run soap opera over seven years ago and I recently started converting it into novel form. As I was planning out the story and what would happen in each novel, first I decided to write a novel series, with 10 novels. Then about a month ago, I decided it would only be 8 novels. Then yesterday after hours and hours of thinking and working, I found a way to write the story as one novel of epic proportions (which will benefit the story, eliminating the huge cliffhangers I had planned at the end of each book of the original series - making it more marketable).

I've read posts on this board and I know that proposing a huge novel (possibly 200,000+ words) will only get me a stack of rejection letters. Now, over the past few years, my "soap opera" has been my main project, but like all writers, I have tons of other ideas.

A couple years ago, when I was researching the TV business, I learned you needed to write spec scripts of current TV shows, scripts that would get you a job. I had an idea for a character - a teen angel, that I thought I would try and weave into an episode of "Touched by an Angel." After a while, I fell in love with the character and just couldn't think of a story that would involve the characters on Touched by an Angel and the angel character I had created. So, I took my character and back story and I created my own 3-season primetime show.

Once I got interested in the novel writing business, I found a way of converting the angel primetime show into a novel series - a trilogy (3 seasons to 3 books). Now, once I started converting my soap into novel form, I decided to put my "angel" trilogy on the backburner, intending on making that my NEXT project after my soap novel series got published. But, now that I am thinking of making my soap novel series an epic ONE novel, I knew that I would need a great book published first, before a publisher would even look at such a huge novel. So, I began brainstorming, going through every project I had, and the angel series was the obvious choice for my first novel because it was a story I had spent a long time on developing and it has a strong beginning and ending (You have said when choosing a project to become your first novel, choose the one with the strongest beginning and ending).

Now, to my question... If I write my angel series (which is short enough to combine into one novel with 3 parts instead of a trilogy) while I am beginning my epic soap novel, and my angel book is published, will that make it easier for a publisher to consider my epic novel? Many writers have written huge novels that were published, but only after they have published regular length ones (Stephen King's IT & The Stand are two that immediately come to mind). Any advice on what I should do?

---------------------------------------------

[PattiTheWicked]

[QUOTE=Michael Pullmann]

Simply put: How the frell is this possible? Am I nuts, or does that add up to more than 24 hours in a day? I'm OK with making sacrifices, but we're almost talking Mayan proportions here. Or at least that's how I feel.

QUOTE]

Oh, see, there's the problem... you're going on the assumption that you get to have a life :)

Seriously, you cut out the stuff that's not important to you. I watch two hours of regular tv a week: Deadwood on Sunday nights, and CSI on Thursday, with the occasional Discovery Channel Cool Historical Thingie thrown in.

After my younger kids go to bed, which is around 830, I take an hour or so to hang out and get caught up on the days' events with my husband, who leaves for work at 930. Then I spend about another hour hanging out with my oldest kid before she goes to bed, and from around 11 to 1 am, I write. I may get some work done in the morning or later in the day, but that 11 - 1 slot belongs to me, and me only. I can work on anything I like -- content articles, newspaper crap, or one of three WIPs that I have going at any given time, but I write.

I do my reading while my little ones are in the bathtub for an hour every night. I pay my bills and balance my checkbook and clean my house when they're taking their afternoon nap. I run my errands on my way to and from my part-time job. Somehow, everything gets done, and I still have time to write.

That's because there's not much else to do from 11 - 1 at night.

[James D. Macdonald]

I've read posts on this board and I know that proposing a huge novel (possibly 200,000+ words) will only get me a stack of rejection letters.

Standard disclaimer: Unless it's brilliant.

Anyway ... in between writing the Big Book, you might try a shorter novel or two. Can't hurt. Get some things out in the mail and making the rounds. (And the practice of bringing a novel all the way to Ready To Submit will be good for you. Nothing teaches you how to write a novel better than writing a novel.)

Anyway ...

I'm not certain that the angel idea is the best thing to work on. Do you have any ideas that you don't already have in script form -- that are just ideas? Can any of them be made into 80,000 words over the next three months? If so, that might be a direction I'd go.

[E.G. Gammon]

I'm not certain that the angel idea is the best thing to work on. Do you have any ideas that you don't already have in script form -- that are just ideas? Can any of them be made into 80,000 words over the next three months? If so, that might be a direction I'd go.

I have a box and a half full of work and "other" ideas I have had throughout the past seven years (stuff I put on hold to work on my soap). I'll take your advice and search for a better first novel. Should the novel be somewhat like my "big novel," genre wise? Or can it be different? I assume the genre can be different, but some readers like a writer's first book, and expect the second book to be the same genre, and if it's not, they may get disappointed (wouldn't want that to happen). I have a wide range of ideas and a lot of different genres...

[Roger J Carlson]

Simply put: How the frell is this possible? Am I nuts, or does that add up to more than 24 hours in a day? I'm OK with making sacrifices, but we're almost talking Mayan proportions here. Or at least that's how I feel. Writing a little bit every day adds up quickly. 500 words per day - five days a week - adds up to more than 2500 words written once a week. Not sound mathematics, perhaps, but it is sound psychology. You'll often find that you get more than 500 words some days and if you get a chance to write on Saturday then it's all bonus.

I wrote my first novel (45,000 word juvenile) in 10 weeks. I wrote an average of 500 words a day (1 hour in the morning) and 2000 on Saturday (3-4 hours). Now this was just a first draft, and I spent 2 or 3 times that revising. Depending on how close your first draft is to final copy, you can write a lot a little bit at a time.

Jim's permission not withstanding, the only time I have to re-write is that same 1 hour, so I use it for that too. However, I don't do "business" (preparing submissions, etc.) in that time.

[azbikergirl]

I work 8-5, M-F and spend my lunch breaks writing. I can pound out at least 500 words in the 45 minutes or so that I'm sitting still. And it's a fun way to spend the time. ;)

[James D. Macdonald]

I have a wide range of ideas and a lot of different genres...

Pick one that excites you, that you'd love to explore, and that has a strong climax.

[E.G. Gammon]

I've read posts on this board and I know that proposing a huge novel (possibly 200,000+ words) will only get me a stack of rejection letters.
Standard disclaimer: Unless it's brilliant.

Do you know of any successful first novels that are longer than the "average length?"

[Trapped in amber]

Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell? I'm pretty sure it was a first novel. Though I'm not sure whether or not it was the first novel the author had written.

[Christine N.]

Yep. She had written some short stories prior, but Jonathan Strange was her first novel length.


However, Ms. Clark had been involved with the publishing industry for many years and had tons of contacts. Not that the book isn't brilliant, it certainly is, but she had friends in high places to give her a boost.

[Trapped in amber]

My Other Half reckons Raymond E. Feist's 'The Magician' was a first novel. That's 831 pages in his copy (and there's a longer version).

[James D. Macdonald]

she had friends in high places to give her a boost.

All that having friends in high places will get you is your work read more quickly, and, if it isn't brilliant, a quicker rejection.

[Sonya]

I've completed three novels, the first when I was only 18 years old and still in high school. The manuscript was lost in a move (this was before computers). It was hard for me to write another book, but eventually I did and have now completed two more.

Should I try to edit ( I think both need a major edit) those and send them to an agent or just send them directly to a publisher?

I know agents don't require money up front but what happens if they don't sell your novel? Is the writer then out a ton of money?

Thanks,
Sonya

[katiemac]

I've completed three novels, the first when I was only 18 years old and still in high school. The manuscript was lost in a move (this was before computers).

Ouch, Sonya. I'd be devastated. Speaking of which, I haven't made a back-up copy in awhile... *ba dum dum*

[maestrowork]

I know agents don't require money up front but what happens if they don't sell your novel? Is the writer then out a ton of money?


That's why they're so careful in selecting who to rep... and if the book is good, they'll eventually sell it. If the book is crap, they won't touch it with a 100-foot pole.

[James D. Macdonald]

Should I try to edit ( I think both need a major edit) those and send them to an agent or just send them directly to a publisher?

If they need a major edit, yes, edit them. Revise and rewrite until you're sure they're the best you can make them.

If I were you, I'd look for an agent first (you can query many at once), though if there's a major publisher that takes books in your genre submitting it there at the same time wouldn't hurt.


I know agents don't require money up front but what happens if they don't sell your novel? Is the writer then out a ton of money?

If they don't sell your novel that's their loss, not yours. That's why they're picky about who they represent.

For more on agents, see here: Everything you wanted to know about literary agents. (http://www.neilgaiman.com/journal/2005/01/everything-you-wanted-to-know-about.asp)

You probably also want to read Slushkiller (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004641.html).

[PattiTheWicked]

Do you know of any successful first novels that are longer than the "average length?"

I think Diana Gabaldon's Outlander was her first novel, and it's pretty good-sized.

[Roger J Carlson]

My Other Half reckons Raymond E. Feist's 'The Magician' was a first novel. That's 831 pages in his copy (and there's a longer version). Since The Magician was first published in 1982 and since the publishing world has changed a lot since then, I don't think you can generalize from this. In the 1990s, The Magician was split into two books Magician:Apprentice and Magician: Master and this may be a better indicator of current market conditions.

There are threads in other AW forums that warn against taking advice about "breaking in" to the publishing world from people who broke in more than ten years ago. Things are different now.

[lindylou45]

Okay, I did it! Today I submitted my ms to four agents and one publisher! I wanted to rip the packages out of the postman's hands, but I was able to contain myself. Now the long wait ensues. Shades of Myrtle the MS come to mind! :scared:

[Galoot]

Okay, I did it! Today I submitted my ms to four agents and one publisher!
Awesome! So how far are you into your next book? ;)

[lindylou45]

Awesome! So how far are you into your next book? ;)

I've actually got four books written. The first three are a series and the fourth is a totally different one. I'm in the editing process of the last two. I've been trying to convince Uncle Jim that I can stop writing for a while, but he doesn't buy it. I don't know why? :Shrug:

[James D. Macdonald]

Follow the publishers' and agents' guidelines to the letter -- and write your next book.

I can't promise that you will get published. But I can promise that unless you work at your writing ... you won't.

[Christine N.]

Yeah, put the WIP in the drawer, so to speak, and started on the next one today. But, um, I can't think of anything to write. Those first three pages are a PITA, aren't they? I know what the book is about, it's the next in the series for the one I just revised. But where to begin?? This is the first book I've had a problem starting. Bleck.

[zizban]

I sent a query letter for an MS I completed and had edited years ago to Christine N's publisher, so fingers crossed. Meanwhile, the WIP continues at good speed.

[lindylou45]

I sent a query letter for an MS I completed and had edited years ago to Christine N's publisher, so fingers crossed. Meanwhile, the WIP continues at good speed.

My fingers are crossed for you! Best of luck. :Hug2:

[alaskamatt17]

I'm still plugging away on my second real novel. The first one is in the mail--I haven't been able to get any agent to request a sample yet.

I'm really hoping I'll get a positive response soon. I've got three short stories out in the mail that I think (and have been told) stand a pretty good chance of publication.

By the way, congrats on sending out your manuscript, lindylou45!

[CaoPaux]

Um, hi! Uncle Jim thought the following might be useful for this thread. I’m sure he’ll point out any errors I commit. And whup me upside the head for overt snarkiness.

This is a message that was posted on the board of an infamous POD publisher. (Can you guess which? I knew you could.) I feel it reflects what far too many newbies become convinced is True by unscrupulous agents and publishers out for their money.

What makes this message doubly sad, is that it was from one of their authors, answering questions by fellow authors that by all rights should be answered by the publisher. But that’s a whole ‘nother topic. My comments are in [brackets].

------
Message:

Okay, so to answer your original questions:

1)Does the publisher give us any training or send us any instructions on marketing? [They shouldn’t. Marketing is a publisher’s job. Why would a publish risk their investment by allowing amateurs to do their marketing? Oh, wait, they don’t have anything invested in you, do they…]

- PA will send you a small looseleaf booklet about the basics in marketing. Now is the time to do your own research. Get some books at the library on marketing. Read the past posts on these forums as far back as you have time for. You will find a huge amount of marketing information right back to summer of 2004 at least. [Actually, to keep you from finding the answers to your questions, they’ve clipped their database so that posts only go back 30 days. So unless you know advanced Googling, good luck.] Use your search engine and find the topics you are looking for with key words. Your marketing begins when the manuscript is sent to PA. [But what you should be doing is starting your next book.]

2) What exactly does the publisher do beside send out our list and press releases? [Upload your ISBN and cover pic to Amazon. Most of the time.]

-That is pretty much it. Just like most other publishers they do not market or even edit much. [*universe screeches to a halt* Folks, just sit and read that a few times. Now think of your last trip to a bookstore. Or WalMart for cripe’s sake. How did all those books get there? Not from the author driving from store to store begging the manager to stock their book. They got there because the Person In Charge of Ordering was visited by a Professional Marketer From The Publisher who, after wining, dining, and/or glad-handing, did grace the Person In Charge with a catalog of current releases and a schedule of discounts and a “if you order this new series we’ll throw in the author’s backlist and this nifty cool standup”, yada, yada, yada. And the Person In Charge orders with confidence, because s/he understands that the publisher has not only a financial investment in their product, but also their reputation riding on the reader liking their books. Which segues into competent editing, cover design, and book construction, but I gotta stop to breathe.]

Most of this is up to you. It is part of being a writer. It has nothing to do with any lacking on PA's part. It is just the way things are in the writing world. You are on your own. [*choke, sputter, gasp* No, you are NOT alone. Even the smallest press, if their interest is selling your book to readers, and not to you, will have a marketing plan/network in place to get your book into stores. You may need and/or be asked to assist with promotion, but that’s an entirely different animal. Homework: research the difference. Hint: An endcap display is marketing. A book tour is promotion.]

PA will send out 100 notices to contacts. If you have them send you one too, you can photo copy it and send it to anyone else on that list. PA provides a free postcard which you can use to help announce your book to anyone you know with an email address. [Spamming will result in as many sales as including your flyer with your check to the water company. (And, yes, stuffing return envelopes is considered a valid Marketing Tool by PA.)]

PA will send newspaper press releases to your local newspaper outlets. You must provide them with the contact information. Be as detailed as possible. If possible, give them a contact name as well. [And yet, when the author calls to follow up, the newspaper rarely remembers them. So much for impact.] If you have multiple newspapers in town, list them all to PA. Follow up with an email or a phone call at the newspaper office. [Editors just love calls like this. /sarcasm] You may want to consider sending in your own Press Release. [Risk: it may reveal more than you intend about the quality of your book.] Just because the paper gets a release does not mean they will use it. There is lots of competition for print space. [Yes and no. Editors have finite amount of space to work with, but they keep a file of interesting stuff to stick into a page to balance it out. And the key word is …?]

3) Exactly how do they sell our books? [They don’t. If it’s POD, you do.]

-PA has contracts with Ingram and Baker & Taylor. These are 2 of the largest bookstore and library book distributors. Most bookstores order from them. [But they can’t order your book because they don’t know about it because they don’t receive a catalog from PA.] PA also accepts and encourages direct orders from individuals and retailers by offering higher discounts. [Um, yes, they offer a $3 “discount” if one orders from their webpage. But guess how much S&H is.] For instance, Ingram's discount is 20% off to retailers whereas PA's begins at 40% and escellates with an increased number of books ordered. [But PA authors don’t get royalties on the books they buy themselves, and the royalties they DO get are paid on net. Which means that the bigger the discount, the less royalties they receive. *head hurt*]

3) Or do we have to sell all of them ourselves? [After all, they tell you that your book is available in all major bookstores. But I guess it depends on what the definition of “is” is.]

- Authors have multiple methods of getting books sold. Some resort to selling the books themselves. I do not agree with this particular method. [Halleluiah!] I am a writer, not a store. I do not have capital, nor am I willing to pay for shipping twice (once to get the order from PA and again to send to customer). If you try to sell books, you will need to keep track of taxes, charge shipping and handling, have packaging material on hand and be glued to your office - rather than writing. [Not to mention get a business and/or retail license in most states/localities.]

Your discount at PA begins at only 20%. And authors do not receive royalties on books they personally purchase. So your profit is reduced. As well, you have to keep tight records of which retailer has your book on commision, how many copies they have and so on. [Now, why would an author need to place books on commission? If their “publisher” doesn’t offer a return policy, which is Death to getting 99% of stores to put it on the shelf.] Personally, I do not go this route. Market like crazy, promote like mad and pester retailers. You'll get in the stores if you keep working hard. [Tried and true! One PA author got her local Borders to stock her book on their own dime! One author. Out of thousands. One store. Out of tens of thousands. You may weep now.]

4)One of my most difficult challenges will be visiting my target audience where the setting of my book is. The book is a biography of a man back in Texas. Does anybody have any suggestions that make my marketing any easier?

- The internet is your greatest marketing tool. You don't have to come from Texas or anywhere else to find a book worthy of reading... Better start hitting the Net and get your marketing plan designed... [A Professional Marketer would first get your book into local chain stores. Then they would ferret out the local historical societies, museums, etc., and send them 8 x 10 color glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one expounding how your book would just be perfect for their gift shop….]

------

So what does my rant boil down to? A thick sludge that I hope you will smear upon your forehead in the shape of a dollar sign, to remind you every time you look in the mirror that the only way you are going to see any profit from your sweat and ink is to write your next book while your publisher sells your current one.

Thank you for your time. I now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

[Jason M. Dyess]

Okay, I have a question. At some point in the past, I began a novel. I wrote around six chapters, made the mistake of reading back over it and cut the first three chapters, then worked them back in in the the new fourth and fifth chapters. the onlything in all of that that matters, is that I came to a standstill, and took a break from writing (actually, I took a break from almost everything) and now I want to start writing it again. My question is, what should I do? Start over at the beginning, pick up where I left off (in the middle of a chapter)? or delete my last chapter and start from there?

[James D. Macdonald]

My question is, what should I do? Start over at the beginning, pick up where I left off (in the middle of a chapter)? or delete my last chapter and start from there?

This will depend entirely on your temperament.

I would suggest starting fresh with a whole new novel (new plot, new characters) or resuming at the start of the next chapter in the current work.

[astonwest]

Does anyone else go through this process (which I just started doing for the first time recently)? I began writing my newest novel from the beginning, but then got to a point in the novel (mid-book...oops) where it just wasn't going anywhere. I couldn't even get words down, no matter how much I sat and stared at the computer or paper.
So, I went ahead and wrote up a scene from later in the book. I've done this for four other scenes later in the book now, and am slowly closing up the gaps between them...it's felt good to actually have some production...

[James D. Macdonald]

So, I went ahead and wrote up a scene from later in the book. I've done this for four other scenes later in the book now, and am slowly closing up the gaps between them...it's felt good to actually have some production...

Yeah I do that. If a later scene shows up in my mind I write it right then when I'm thinking of it.

[James D. Macdonald]

Varieties of insanity known to affect authors (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004307.html#79434)

[maestrowork]

We are considered the sane and reasonable ones (even boring) compared to rock musicians, pop divas and actors.

[James D. Macdonald]

We are considered the sane and reasonable ones (even boring) compared to rock musicians, pop divas and actors.

That's because, on what an author makes, who can afford drugs?

[brokenfingers]

Wait a minute....

I thought the brochure explicitly stated that there would be groupies.....

[James D. Macdonald]

I thought the brochure explicitly stated that there would be groupies.....

Groupies. Yeah.

I've got groupies. Unfortunately, most groupies don't look like Playboy centerfolds. At least mine don't. Maybe I have to be richer and more famous.

And ... some writers have made some serious mistakes. First, your spouse or significant other may not be as supportive of that part of the writers' lifestyle as the other parts, and second, penicillin doesn't cure everything.

[brokenfingers]

Note to Self:

Once contract is signed - DO NOT get married. Hire doctor on retainer. Screen groupies...

[reph]

Unfortunately, most groupies don't look like Playboy centerfolds. At least mine don't.
So Kathy Bates was well cast...

[Christine N.]

:ROFL:


Hey, I write for 9-12 year olds. I'll have illegal groupies. Hate to steal 'em from Michael Jackson though.

(Sorry, was that in poor taste?)

[Galoot]

Varieties of insanity known to affect authors (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004307.html#79434)
"Your editorial comments are brilliant. I adore them. No one has ever understood my writing as well as you have. I am now so paralyzed that I can’t revise the book."

That last sentence scares me.

[Lenora Rose]

Groupies. Yeah.

I've got groupies.

**<<Goggle>>**

Someone who explicitly writes most of his books WITH HIS WIFE gets groupies? There seems to be a rather significant reality check that was missed.

Does she at least get an equal number?

[Liam Jackson]

A single item from the phobia list struck home.

I fooled the agent and publisher THIS time. However, any day now they're gonna catch on. When that day finally comes, the "Poser Police" will show up at my house and arrest me for impersonating a "real" writer.

Let it bump. They'll never take me alive!

[Christine N.]

Oh yeah, I have this thought ALL the time. Constantly on the lookout for the Poser Police.

[maestrowork]

A single item from the phobia list struck home.

I fooled the agent and publisher THIS time. However, any day now they're gonna catch on. When that day finally comes, the "Poser Police" will show up at my house and arrest me for impersonating a "real" writer.

Let it bump. They'll never take me alive!

I look out my window and check the shadows in my house every day.

[James D. Macdonald]

**<<Goggle>>**

Someone who explicitly writes most of his books WITH HIS WIFE gets groupies? There seems to be a rather significant reality check that was missed.


For some reason there's a class of young ladies who seem to feel that the way to get published is to screw a writer.

I have to keep explaining to them, "No, no, you don't understand. To get published an editor has to screw the writer."

Pervy Editor-Fancier (http://www.cafepress.com/oftpublished.2278121)


Does she at least get an equal number?


If she does, I don't want to know about it.

[brokenfingers]

For some reason there's a class of young ladies who seem to feel that the way to get published is to screw a writer.

Wow!! As if I even needed the added motivation!

I'll be writing all night now!

BIC - here I come!

[brokenfingers]

Man, this writing gig just keeps getting better and better....

Thanks Uncle Jim!

[James D. Macdonald]

There have been some messy divorces. Don't do this, guys. Have some self-respect.

=================

Story time.

There was a writer I know who went to a convention without his wife. He did, however, take along his three-year-old child.

Later, the child told Mommy everything that he'd seen and heard (as three-year-olds will do).

The wife got the house, the car, and custody of the kid. The writer, when last heard from, was living in a refrigerator box.

[maestrowork]

Oh that's just stupid. Wow, I would never do that! Taking my son to the convention...


;)

[Sailor Kenshin]

I have to keep explaining to them, "No, no, you don't understand. To get published an editor has to screw the writer."


You are cracking me up. And do I ever need it. I'm having a Poseur (note pretentious spellage) attack.

[zizban]

What was the line from Finding Forrester? Oh, this:

"Women will sleep with you if write a book?"
"Women will sleep with you if you write a BAD book."

[reph]

I have to keep explaining to them, "No, no, you don't understand. To get published an editor has to screw the writer."
Then there are publishers that screw the writer. Of course, I'm not mentioning names.

[Jason M. Dyess]

This will depend entirely on your temperament.

I would suggest starting fresh with a whole new novel (new plot, new characters) or resuming at the start of the next chapter in the current work.

Not having anything else fresh in my brain, I'll go with the second suggestion (because I'm a glutton for punishment and I really want so say I finished the first novel I started)

Back to BIC after work today.

[astonwest]

I really want so say I finished the first novel I started.

I can say that...
I can also say that said novel now resides in the bottom of my closet.
I believe Uncle Jim's *official* advice has been to burn that first novel...

[SeanDSchaffer]

I can say that...
I can also say that said novel now resides in the bottom of my closet.
I believe Uncle Jim's *official* advice has been to burn that first novel...


Forgive me for asking, but I'm honestly curious: why would an author want to burn his first novel?
:confused:


(Unless published by P*Cough, cough*a?)