Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[Sailor Kenshin]

Styles go in and out of fashions -- but stories, the baseline, are eternal.

And Uncle Jim also said, "Story trumps everything." I know this is the novel-writing thread, but I took a loooong break from writing short stories. This turned out to be a good thing. Now when I look at an unsold story, I think, "Once you get rid of all that self-indulgent crap, you might actually be able to sell this."

So thanks, Uncle Jim. :)

[Richard White]

I don't think I would have the strength to write a book by hand.

I actually wrote my first Gauntlet: Dark Legacy book by hand. We only had one computer and so my wife and I worked out a deal. She got the computer Mon-Fri and I transcribed what I had hand-written on Saturday and Sunday.

I considered the transcription time my first edit of the book as I caught mistakes I'd made or changed where I was going occasionally when I was typing the stuff in.

My first draft of Gauntlet came out to 115K handwritten words (more or less). I think if you really want to get a story done, you can do it, no matter what medium you have to work with.

(Although, I did use the first half of my advance to buy a laptop ;) )

[James D. Macdonald]

Another advantage of handwriting is that it's tougher to go back and re-write yesterday's writing rather than moving forward.

Do I have an endpoint in mind when I start a book? Sure. Do I always get to the climax I had in mind? Nope.

Is possible that I don't know the climax and I'm just using this as a method of coming up with characters? Sure, that's possible.


See also the discussion of positional chess as a method of plotting.

[Dawno]

See also the discussion of positional chess as a method of plotting.


You'll find the initial post on chess here (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=82327#post82327) and more specifically about positional chess and plotting here. (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=82443#post82443)

[willietheshakes]

I write all of my fiction by hand, for several reasons.

First, it serves to differentiate acutely between the fiction process and the freelance non-fiction process.
Second, it appeals to the ritualistic side of my fiction writing. I like the act of filling the pen, of placing the guide sheet, of choosing the right notebook for the project (and no, this isn't procrastination - the writing gets done).
Third, I find that with a good pen there is a direct connection from mind to paper that isn't there writing directly on the computer.
Fourth, I use the movement from the page to the disk as an opportunity for initial revision.

It just works for me, and there are few things as satisfying as watching those handwritten pages pile up...

[Jonny Ryan Mac]

I do so much writing on the computer at work, writing a hand written note seems odd to me. That is really what it seems like to me, anyway. I have noting but love for you cats that can write that way.
I wrote my first novel longhand in a blank book, years ago. I dont think that I could do it again. My latest novek was computer from the get go, i barley had any hand written notes this time. But, in my defense, i did have a whole lot of illusrations. (but then again, i wrote this as a way to get published, not just have a little fun like I used too.)
I just finished the first edit this morning. My editor took a look at the rough and gave some good pointers. Im really glad that i didnt have to transcribe. Congrats to you all that did.

[Sailor Kenshin]

I write all my first drafts by hand, simply because I like to.

Plus, I'm a certified pen fiend.

[Nangleator]

You keep hearing that sort of thing, but I'm not certain that I believe it... Styles go in and out of fashions -- but stories, the baseline, are eternal.
I certainly hope this is the case. I just have this fear that if the wordsmithing doesn't perfectly conform to the current fashion, editors never get far enough through the submission to see enough story to impress them.

[D.J.]

Before closing today's episode: Another advantage of blocking out a regular time for writing is that it becomes your time when no one will ask you to drive the kids to soccer practice or go shopping "because you aren't doing anything."


I think this has motivated me to do just this. I tend to be too willing to "help others" and forget I have a goal that needs time to be attained. I wish to be a published author. I think what you've written has lots of good merit and I appreciate your time and willingness to "help others."

[James D. Macdonald]

You're quite welcome.

It's common for writers to help other writers and to help folks who want to be authors. We know where we came from and remember those who helped us.

Being a writer means you have homework every day for the rest of your life. It's easier with a study-buddy.

[James D. Macdonald]

I just have this fear that if the wordsmithing doesn't perfectly conform to the current fashion, editors never get far enough through the submission to see enough story to impress them.

Write what you love; write what excites you. If you don't, I'll bet you a box of donuts that no one else will love your book or be excited by it.

The current fashion is a moving target. The books being written today are the ones that will be setting "the current fashion" four years from now.

[jlawrenceperry]

I'm replying to this because I'm just like this writer. I never know the ending when I start, and often this is depicted as a great problem. It isn't;
After giving this some thought, I think we all do the exact same thing. We have a story idea pop in our head. Immediately we set to work. Now, the work we do may be quite different. The two processes may, in fact, take the same amount of time.

Take a planner:
He has the idea. Hmm, that's interesting, he says. Who are my characters? he asks himself. He thinks of the protagonist first; begins to form an idea of what he/she does. He grabs a pen and starts sketching out the character. Possible experiences that lead to others that generate conflict. Out of this grow other characters: antagonist, love interest, sidekick, etc. He thinks of names.

The planer sketches out the story in an organic fashion, whether he puts in a lot of details or few. As he thinks through the story, it plays out perhaps like a film. He sees the main points, the best images, the conflict, and the resolution. He writes this all down somewhere, somehow, for reference. Once the bones are on the skeleton, then he goes back and starts to flesh things out, and really work the dang thing.

Now the organist (ha! That's funny!)

Okay, the non-planner:
He has the idea. Hmm, that's interesting, she says. Where do I start? He puts his pen to paper (fingers to keys) and begins to write the first scene. He's describing it in the best prose he can write, and throwing himself into the scene. Once the first five pages are done, he begins to see another scene or character that can grow out of that. He lives in the moment. He lets the big picture come later.

As he writes the story he sees the nuance, the conflict, the little quirks that make a character who he/she is. He lives in his story as if it is life itself, not a movie. He's building his body a finger at a time. once the bone, flesh, capillaries, cartilage, and blood are in that finger, he makes the next finger, and the next, and the next. Soon he's working on the rest of the hand, making it the best hand he can do for now in a first draft. Later, he'll add color, repair the white blood cells that are weak, put hair on the knuckles, design the fingernails, clip off the hangnails, etc.

-------------------------------

For the planner and the non-planner both, the story comes in an organic fashion. The characters intrigue us the same, the surprises affect us the same, the conflict and theme drive us the same. The difference is in vision and approach. Some must see the whole thing--the big picture. Some live in the moment and breathe in the nuance with every scene. Some want to smell the flowers from the beginning, as they write them in. Some want to build the park first, then go back and smell the flowers later.

[jlawrenceperry]

I wonder if maybe planners like the computer best, because we get everything hashed out so quickly, and the thoughts pop into our heads so fast, that we need to get stuff down as fast as possible, and we type faster than we write.

And even if we were to write fast, we couldn't read it once we went back.

Then the non-planner likes the pen because the pen and paper themselves have a nuance that person likes to connect with.

I have done both, but have found that I get so much more done when typing at a computer. I've been using one for so long, and I can read it so well, and my hands don't hurt unlike when handwriting--that anything else is just not good enough for my brain. I type 77 wpm, so you can imagine how much slower my penmanship is. And no matter how fast I go, it always looks the same.

[Roger J Carlson]

Then the non-planner likes the pen because the pen and paper themselves have a nuance that person likes to connect with.I'm an organist (I like that) or a non-planner if you like. I have always composed at the keyboard. Even in high school (which I blushingly admit was before the advent of desktop computers) I composed at the typewriter. Fortunately it was a self-correcting typewriter. (I'm not THAT old.)

Part of the reason I compose at the keyboard is that my thoughts are so much quicker than I can write. I type about 60 wpm. My thought process is still faster than that, but it's better than pen on paper. Also, because I'm a non-planner, my thoughts sometimes come out of order, and I can easily reorder them on the computer.

[jlawrenceperry]

And that's where I'm at, too.

Hey Roger, any more news on your submission to the TOR person?

[Roger J Carlson]

And that's where I'm at, too.

Hey Roger, any more news on your submission to the TOR person?Not yet. Pins and needles!

[loquax]

Although I'm a planner, and use the computer more than anything else, I still find that the best ideas come when you're sitting in the kitchen, and you quickly scrawl some words onto the back of an envelope with an old crayon.

But the way I write is still very spontaneous even when I'm at the keyboard. I normally have a chapter set out in my mind, and some things I want to have happened by the end of it. Then I wind the characters up and let them go, nudging them back onto the path all the way.

[J. Y. Moore]

I tend to be a planner; however, that really has nothing to do with why I use the computer for my ms. I, too, think much faster than my hand will write for longhand. I was a secretary for a lot of years and typed final copy from a dictaphone (oops, age showing). I think through my fingers! Further, I can move things around and organize my material much more easily with the copy/paste/etc. features inherent in the computer world. When away from my keyboard, I carry around a digital recorder and verbalize notes to myself about my plot(s) - lest I forget:idea: ! Since I am usually in my vehicle when away from the computer, the purchase of the recorder has been an idea-saver of paramount importance. I don't even want to contemplate the number of brilliant visions I lost prior to having it (sort of like the fish that got away - the lost ones are always the biggest and best, wouldn't you say?!).

[Tim Dixon]

*takes a deep breath*



My goodness, what an amazing thread. I “discovered” this thread several weeks ago and set about to read every post, in order, before replying. I decided that it would be my penance for not finding my way here earlier. Along the way, I followed every link that wasn’t broken, done most of the exercises (not the tinfoil hats, though – full disclosure) and learned more about writing than I thought was possible. I’ve made some small, but very tangible changes to the way I write, and I like the results.



“And then” has been eliminated from all my manuscripts, except when it’s in dialog.



Courier has replaced Times New Roman, which was disconcerting at first, but I’ve grown to see some definite advantages to using it.



I eliminated a prologue that was really chapter 1 in one of my manuscripts. I left it in another because it really was a prologue. It will enrich the experience of those who read it and it won’t matter in the long run to those who don’t.



I’ve become quite educated on the slushpile, the life of our projects on the aforementioned pile, the people who live with it and the publishing industry as a whole. I even read some (hideous? terrible?) slush of my own following that fan–fic assignment.



The only thing I didn’t embrace was the strategic chess movement. I hate chess, never could get through a whole game. Not to disparage anyone who loves it, but it’s just not thing. I’ve substituted baseball for chess. I love baseball; not the thirty second highlight you might see on your evening news, but the strategy and matchups that a well played game provides. If you’re out in the field, you’ve got to position your players in the right places so that when the ball’s in play they can do what comes naturally to them. The only difference between a long lazy fly out to deep center field and a mad dash, diving catch that bounces the player off the wall is planning. There are times when the chaotic chase is more entertaining for the moment, but the real fan will enjoy the long term success of a team that is well coached. There are many other metaphors I could use as well: pitchers and catchers selecting the right sequence to strike out a key hitter; batters working the field to place the ball exactly where they want it to go; managers sending runners in a clutch situation to cause movement by their opponents and hopefully get them out of place when the ball is hit.



I didn’t have to embrace the BIC method; it embraced me. I started writing shortly before my 40th birthday (almost two years ago) and since that time I’ve produced four manuscripts averaging 80,000 words each. That doesn’t include my first “novel” which sits patiently on my hard-drive waiting for a cruise so that I can pitch it overboard.



Not counting “Captain Craptastic: Adventures In Writing” – the working title for novel number zero, my four manuscripts are in various stages of completeness.



Novel number one was submitted to a publisher in February. In May the senior editor sent me an email saying that she was very impressed, but they had changed philosophy and would no longer be publishing my genre (historical religious fiction). She continued on by giving me contact information for two senior editors at houses she felt would have a definite interest in my book. She encouraged me by saying that she was very certain it would be published. I quickly submitted the manuscript to one of the leads she gave me. I remain hopeful.



Novel number two is fermenting nicely in the desk drawer. Chronologically it is the most recently completed work, but it’s also the next closest to submission stage so I’ve got it listed as number two. I’ve done three drafts, had it read out loud to me and done all the copy-editing that is required. All that’s left is to let it age a bit and then give it a final polishing. I plan to have it out to a publisher by September. I believe that it represents my best work and I’m quite proud of it. We’ll see what the harsh world of reality thinks.



Novel numbers three and four are in the draft/re-write cycle. Three is actually a SF work (Postman, Alas Babylon, Footfall sub-genre) that I entered into a contest in February. The grand prize is being the featured SF book the publisher. I haven’t heard yet that I’ve been eliminated, so I continue to be hopeful.



So far I’m a prolific amateur. I hope to change that status this year, but no matter what I’ll be writing two to three manuscripts a year.



Thanks for all the tips, advice and gentle shoves. I’m glad to have caught up now so I can fully participate.

[James D. Macdonald]

Welcome, Tim. Best of luck with your submissions.

[reph]

I hate chess, never could get through a whole game. Not to disparage anyone who loves it, but it’s just not thing. I’ve substituted baseball for chess. I love baseball; not the thirty second highlight you might see on your evening news, but the strategy and matchups that a well played game provides.
Anyone for a Chinese checkers metaphor?

[alanna]

So I've been reading this thread off and on, and I love it! I can't wait to be able to read all the way through it and garner every juicy tidbit of info! For now, however, I have a question that I'm sure has been asked many times over. Dialogue tags. Do you use them? Do you stick to he said/she said, or do you add he grumbled/she exclaimed. and do the -ly words afterwards annoy or help describe? In my opinion I'd use the he grumbled/she exclaimed and drop most of the -ly words, but I'm wondering if this is good or just a symptom of ineptitude. Does anyone knows of a link where this has already been discussed? Or feel like dicussing it again? thanks!

-alanna

[James D. Macdonald]

Dialog! Woo hoo!

We've probably discussed it, but that doesn't mean we can't do it again.

First off -- using adverbs puts us in severe danger of creating unintentional humor: "My headache is gone," Tom said absentmindedly. "The prisoners are coming down the stairs," Tom said condescendingly. "I love hotdogs!" Mandy said with relish.

These are referred to as Tom Swifties.

Use of words other than 'said' to mean 'said' can get ridiculous, especially if overdone. "What?" he bellowed. "No one's here," he gritted. "The villain has departed," he hissed.

These are called Said Bookisms.

"Said" is an invisible word. You can use it as much as you like and no one will notice it. Not that you have to use it all the time. Especially if you only have two people talking you don't need to put "he said" or "she said" after every sentence. Sprinkle 'em in to keep folks straight so they don't have to flip back two pages and count lines to tell who's talking.

Ideally your charaters should have voices that are different enough that the readers will be able to identify them from their dialog without any tags at all.

Like anything else in your Author's Toolkit you can use Said Bookisms or Tom Swifties or Stage Directions when they're necessary.

Spices make the food tastier; too much spice makes diner inedible.

Observe how your favorite author handles dialog tags. Go and do likewise.

[Euan H.]

Dialogue tags. Do you use them? Do you stick to he said/she said

I read a great piece of advice some time ago (unfortunately, I can't remember where). Basically, it was to have your characters doing something while they're speaking. That way you can use the actions that they're doing both to show character/emotional state and also to identify the speaker.

This is the first draft of something I'm working on. I've highlighted the dialog tags in red. There are only two, but I think it's fairly clear who's talking throughout. (Of course, there are other problems in this, but that's another story.)

"I noticed." Tahirah smiled a little, then looked back at the archway. "What happens if you go down another one of them?"

Holding the frame of the mirror with both hands, Imad stood up and shrugged. "They're all the same. They all lead you back here."

"So how do we get in? A window?"

Imad walked toward one of the pillars. He heard Tahirah's footsteps following him. "Did you see any windows?" Imad called over his shoulder.

"No."

"So we're not going to use a window then, are we?" Imad placed the mirror very carefully at the base of the pillar and straightened up.

"So how do we get in then?" Tahirah asked.

Imad pointed at the mirror. "That's where this comes in."

"A mirror?"

Imad clicked his fingers and pointed at her. "See? That's the kind of quick thinking I'm looking for. You'll go far." He squatted down and peered into the mirror. He couldn't quite see the whole of the archway on the other side of the room, so he adjusted the mirror slightly.

[reph]

One more thing about speech tags: If you do use a verb other than "said," let it be a word that can sensibly connect a speaker with the words spoken. For instance, John can ask or shout or whisper "Where's Martha tonight?," but he can't smile "Hello, Martha," and he can't shrug "I don't know where Martha is." Smiling and shrugging aren't ways of making words come out of one's mouth.

[katee]

What about dialog with no tags? Ie:

"blah blah blah"
"oh really? foo bar..."
"bumpkis fiddlesticks"
"woo ahh, hold on there boy"

(Note: this is not actual dialogue from my first draft)

Is this advisable? Or are you better off sticking some he saids/she saids in there so it does look so naked?

I struggle with dialogue. My way to get it out of my head and on to the paper is to write the conversation between my characters first, then go back and tidy up, adding commentary around the tags where I think it's needed to enhance the scene. But I still seem to be stuck with a lot of naked dialogue and I'm a little worried about it.

[loquax]

I nearly always use 'saids' and nothing else. If there are more than two characters, nothing on the end makes things confusing, especially if all of them have been talking so far in the scene. In my mind, it's best for portraying speed, or urgency. A nice slow conversation should really be using something to slow it down.

I was thinking about a strange thing I seem to do with all my dialogue - split it up into two parts; a short part and a long part, separated by a said and maybe an action. For example:

"Oh no, I want revenge," said the Officer, not taking his eyes from Shin. "Her lot killed some of my best gunners."

Compared to

"Oh no, I want revenge. Her lot killed some of my best gunners." said the Officer, not taking his eyes from Shin.

The first example seems much more fluid, and I don't really know why. Have you discussed splitting dialogue like this before?

[Euan H.]

Hi loquax,

I think it depends on whether the person speaking would pause in the dialog where you have the action. If they wouldn't, then maybe the attribution should be at the end.

Also, I think it depends on the length of the dialog. If it's a large chunk, then having "he said" at the very end looks kind of unbalanced.

Lastly, this is something I find myself doing a lot, and checking for (and removing) in revision. Overdone, IMHO, it makes all the characters sound alike.

Robert Sawyer mentions this on his website at:

http://www.sfwriter.com/ow08.htm

Of course, not all your characters should talk the same way. I read one story recently in which there were dozens of lines of dialog like this:


"Interchangeable?" he said. "What do you mean the characters are interchangeable?"We have the attribution tag between an initial word and a sentence that repeats that same word. This is clearly being used to denote confusion — and works fine once or twice, but grates if the same dialog device is employed more than that in a given story — especially by multiple speakers. Assign distinctive speaking patterns to single characters.

[gp101]

Uncle Jim,

For the second time this year I've seen the name "John D. MacDonald" referenced in a book. The latest was Stephen King's ON WRITING, the first was a novel, the title I can't recall. Would this be you using a not so discreet pen-name? A third cousin twice removed? Or another Scot-American writer with the good fortune of your last name?

--Inquiring Mind

[scribbler1382]

What about dialog with no tags?
Is this advisable? Or are you better off sticking some he saids/she saids in there so it does look so naked?

As long as the reader can tell who is saying what, there's no rule that you must have tags at all.

[scribbler1382]

Uncle Jim,

For the second time this year I've seen the name "John D. MacDonald" referenced in a book. The latest was Stephen King's ON WRITING, the first was a novel, the title I can't recall. Would this be you using a not so discreet pen-name? A third cousin twice removed? Or another Scot-American writer with the good fortune of your last name?

--Inquiring Mind

Google is your friend:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._MacDonald

P.S. I have no idea if they're distant relatives, but I'm pretty sure Jim's alive. And since John died in 1986... :)

[BenMears]

John D. MacDonald was one of the more popular writers of his time, and also well-respected by his peers. A useful guy for aspiring writers to know about, and better yet, to have read books by.

[alanna]

Thanks for all the comments about dialogue tags- very helpful!

[DreamWeaver]

Observe how your favorite author handles dialog tags. Go and do likewise.Except, if your favorite author wrote Regency romances several years ago, don't copy them and use 'ejaculated' for 'exclaimed'. It might be in the thesaurus, but it's a really, really bad choice nowadays. At least, it makes me snicker. YMMV.

Kris

[James D. Macdonald]

UOr another Scot-American writer with the good fortune of your last name?

John D. is (or was -- he's dead now) another and far better writer than me.

================

For dialog tags: Don't confuse the readers. The tags are there to keep the readers from getting confused. Don't annoy or distract the readers. Anything else you do is part of the art. Play around and see what works.

[maestrowork]

Dialogue tags are not necessary if you only have two people talking. Sprinkle them here and there so that the readers don't lose track after 3 pages of dialogue. It's also about pace. You can have some rapid-fire dialogue to speed things up without bogging them down with tags or action:

"What happened?"
"God knows?"
"How did he died?"
"Beats me."
"What else did she say?"
"Why don't you ask her instead?"

It works well with short dialogue.

I usually just use "said" and "asked." Sometimes I need to clarify the way the character speaks the line because the speech itself is not indicative: "whispered," "shouted," etc. But that's it.

I also use dialogue tags (and sometimes short action) to give it a beat:

"Hey lady," he said. "Get out of my store."

Try not to use exclamation point. Use the tag instead:

"Hey lady," he shouted. "Get out of my store."

Also, real people do NOT speak with LONG, run-on, or grammatically perfect sentences -- that's what we call stilted dialogue:

"Rina, my mother is coming to town today and we must make the house look wonderful and impress her so that she will see that our marriage is not a sham."

Ugh! Instead, try making the sentences short: no more than 5 words, and mess up the grammar a bit as your character would do...

"Rina, my mother is coming to town. Today. Make the house look wonderful. We must impress her. So she knows, our marriage is not a sham."

Better yet, break it up by giving the other character something to response with:

"Rina, my mother is coming to down."
"Today?"
"Yeah, please make the house look wonderful."
"You want to impress her."
"I want her to know..."
"That our marriage's not a sham."
(suddenly, you have characterization and even conflict...)



Action is okay to break up the dialogue, but don't over use it. It makes for a choppy read, and shows down the pace. And if the action is trivial, it gets really annoying (she smiles, she grins, she takes a bite, she gazes at him, she lowers her head, etc. etc.)



And don't get me started on info-dumpy dialogue, when the characters tell each other things they already know so to dump information for the readers:

"My dear wife, Ruth, my mother is coming today. She is 80 years old and she can't see very well."
"I will clean the house. I know she can't move very well either. She has arthritis for 10 years now."
"And make her favorite food, which is chicken with honey sauce."
A knock at the door. John opened it.
"Ruth, see what is here. My mother, Mrs. Pickles."

(shoot the author!)

[jules]

What about dialog with no tags? Ie:

"blah blah blah"
"oh really? foo bar..."
"bumpkis fiddlesticks"
"woo ahh, hold on there boy"


See The Business by Iain Banks -- the first chapter is almost entirely dialogue with no attribution tags at all. A couple of sentences of other actions, if memory serves, in about 15 pages of dialogue. It works, but only because there are only two characters involved, and their voices are substantially different from each other (one of them has just had several of his teeth extracted).

[D.J.]

I'm sorry, this isn't about POV or plot, but there's a bit in that Mary Higgins Clark scene that drives me straight up the wall:

"Your mother's always been a pretty woman, and all the tender loving care she's received from me over the last forty-three years has only enhanced her beauty," his father said. He paused. "What are you two smiling at?"

"You know full well I've also waited on you hand and foot, dear," Dolores Stephens replied.

Does anyone in the world talk like that? Mr. Stephens' line only works if he's a flaming mariposa going for comic effect (no disrespect intended toward flaming mariposas, who are some of the modern masters of baroque language), or this family's idiolect is heavy on sarcasm and theatricality, or he's an intolerably pompous windbag.

He pauses after saying it, which fits with the theory that he's talking that way for humorous effect; but his wife's response implies that either she doesn't think he's trying to be funny, or she's incapable of noticing that he is. We therefore have to assume he's speaking seriously.

His wife's reply is as problematic as his, in its quieter way. "You know full well" is middlin' archaic English. You don't really hear that phrase used these days by people who don't read a lot of fantasy. "I've waited on you hand and foot" is also odd. It's been a while since the social consensus has been comfortable with the idea that a wife should do that for her husband. "I've waited on you hand and foot" therefore ought to mean "I've done/had to do more for you than I should have."

My other hypothesis, based on his line about the "tender loving care" he's bestowed on his wife, and her reply about waiting on him hand and foot, is that this respectable-looking middle-aged couple is engaged in a serious long-term D/s relationship.

I doubt it, though. I think what's happening here is that Mary Higgins Clark is trying to jam several bits of initial exposition into the dialogue without regard for the way it makes her characters sound.

Well, this may sound odd to you, but I grew up in a family of educators. We have a bit of a dry sense of humor. My mother honestly used the that exact phrase to me often. "You know full well..." I am the youngest of five siblings that are all educators. The sister who teaches college English and I have a "game" we play. She always uses "high dollar" words in regular speech. To make her aware she uses words a lot of people don't, I restate it's definition but do so as if I'm adding onto what she's saying. We get quite a kick out of this and it can be a challenge not to miss a beat but say, "Yea and ......" Sort of like when I took an elderly relative to the doctor and the doctor said he wanted her to add a particular medicine. I knew he had mispoken, so I asked if had meant she should take the new medicine in lieu of the Claritin? I almost laughed when he said, "Well I want her to take it instead of."

Back to the text you offered...maybe the mother was not the type to spoil him, so it was funny in context and character. I say lots of those types of things to get laughs out of my family and friends. My husband jokingly calls me the "little wife" because it's so ludicrous for him to think of me in those terms.

So, do I agree with what you've said or for that matter what I said? I think the lines sound stupid too. I do like Mary Higgins Clark though and maybe if I read it in context...but I doubt it. I just had fun trying to think of this in another light. :) You really said some intersting things. I'm enjoying learning by reading all over ths board. My only problem is since I've found this site, I don't write as much! LOL! I'm hoping the newness will wear off soon. :)

[azbikergirl]

I use 'said' (or asked) for nearly all dialog unless the character really is shouting or whispering. One particular challenge I've had is in a scene where the Good Guys are sneaking into the Bad Guy's house in the middle of the night. They want to plan their strategy (these are not all military guys who've been trained to take orders via hand signals, mind you), so they have to whisper. However, I don't want to 'whisper' every blessed utterance. My hope is that once I establish that they are trying to be quiet by using a couple whispers or 'said softlys' I can revert to regular old 'said' and the reader will understand that they haven't raised their voices back to normal volume.

[Sailor Kenshin]

"What are dialogue tags?" he demanded angrily.
"I could try to explain, but it would be as casting pearls before swine," he replied loftily.
"Curse you, you supercilious blackguard," he growled threateningly.
"As if I cared what you should say," he sneered provocatively.
"I shan't let you go until you reveal your secrets," he blurted hastily.
"Very well," he expostulated grandly.




---From How Not To Do Dialogue Tags, by Sylvester P. Midlist

[maestrowork]

I use 'said' (or asked) for nearly all dialog unless the character really is shouting or whispering. One particular challenge I've had is in a scene where the Good Guys are sneaking into the Bad Guy's house in the middle of the night. They want to plan their strategy (these are not all military guys who've been trained to take orders via hand signals, mind you), so they have to whisper. However, I don't want to 'whisper' every blessed utterance. My hope is that once I establish that they are trying to be quiet by using a couple whispers or 'said softlys' I can revert to regular old 'said' and the reader will understand that they haven't raised their voices back to normal volume.

Right. Once you've established the context (they are sneaking into someone's house) and that they are whispering, you don't have to say "whisper" or "speak softly" or "under this breath" or whatever... we know. Then when they speak at normal volume, we'd know, too, because of the context (let's say they get found out and the bad guy is now talking to them -- I don't think anyone would think they're still whispering at that point).

[Christine N.]

I don't always use "asked" either, b/c if you end the sentence with a question mark, it's obvious. I almost always use "said" if I need them. Once in while I might throw in a "replied". If there's three or four in 56 thousand words, I don't worry about it.

[Roger J Carlson]

First off -- using adverbs puts us in severe danger of creating unintentional humor: "My headache is gone," Tom said absentmindedly. "The prisoners are coming down the stairs," Tom said condescendingly. "I love hotdogs!" Mandy said with relish.

These are referred to as Tom Swifties.I love Tom Swifties. Here's a site with a lot of them: http://fun-with-words.com/tom_swifties_a-e.html

[black winged fighter]

Ouch! The tags are killing me!

[jdparadise]

I read a great piece of advice some time ago (unfortunately, I can't remember where). Basically, it was to have your characters doing something while they're speaking. That way you can use the actions that they're doing both to show character/emotional state and also to identify the speaker.



Just make sure (as you did, Euan) that what they're playing with does something storywise--for both character and plot, preferably. Having Bob play with his moustache just makes him a moustache-twirler... unless he revels in the fact that it makes him look dastardly, and he's affected the mannerism with a sense of irony or pleasure that reflects the story as a whole. Y'know?

[James D. Macdonald]

Here's one of our stories, in audio format: http://escape.extraneous.org/2005/06/16/ep006-jenny-nettles/

[J. Y. Moore]

Except, if your favorite author wrote Regency romances several years ago, don't copy them and use 'ejaculated' for 'exclaimed'. It might be in the thesaurus, but it's a really, really bad choice nowadays. At least, it makes me snicker. YMMV.

Kris
Unless you're writing comedy?! :)

[loquax]

"It's not my fault that I sometimes get nervous," he ejaculated.

[Ken Schneider]

Uncle Jim,

What are the benefits of writing a series such as your Mageworld's.

How do publishers see a series? Do they prefer series over single novels?

***

So, tell me see if I have this correct.

I shop a novel to the appropriate company.

I write the next one, which, I put in the in the drawer when finished for a few months before re-working it.

I write the next one, re-work and send the second, keep sending the first around, and so on?

[James D. Macdonald]

Uncle Jim,

What are the benefits of writing a series such as your Mageworld's.

Each volume has a built-in audience. Each new reader will seek out earlier volumes.

How do publishers see a series? Do they prefer series over single novels?

All depends. What it depends on is how well the first one does. Series have upsides, but also downsides. It might happen that however many read the first volume, that's how many readers you'll have for the full run. Some books also are clearly stand-alone. Some form loose series -- books about the same characters in the same setting, but don't require that the reader have read previous volumes in order to be up to speed on the plot and characters.

Don't second-guess yourself here. Write the book you want to write and let it be what it is.

***

So, tell me see if I have this correct.

I shop a novel to the appropriate company.

I write the next one, which, I put in the in the drawer when finished for a few months before re-working it.

I write the next one, re-work and send the second, keep sending the first around, and so on?

Yep, that's pretty much it. Unless the second book you've written is the second in a series. In that case, just keep it in your desk drawer until the first one sells.

[Sean Bosker]

Hi Jim,
I’ve only recently discovered this fantastic thread. I was up late last night reading it from the beginning, and I’m only up to page 40 but I couldn’t wait to ask two questions. I hope they haven’t been covered.

1. You suggested a plot trick that entailed creating two story arcs and then substituting the climax of the first in the climax of the second, and you gave The Miller’s Tale as an example. I enjoyed the read and the idea, thank you. I’ve been going over structure, and I came across this basic plot outline on this website (http://www.wendy-wheeler.com/7point.html).


Seven-Point Plot Outline for Genre Short Stories:

The Beginning

1. Character -- someone the reader can experience the story through

2. Conflict/problem (the "collision idea") -- the presenting problem in the story is not always the true conflict of the story, but it works best if it's related somehow.

3. Setting (where most newbie writers are very weak)

The Middle

4. Character tries to solve the problem

5. Character must fail (not for stupid reasons, though) and things must get worse (even better if the well-meaning actions of the character make it worse)--this is the most common plot development that beginners miss.

The End

6. Climax - character tries to solve the problem again (and either fails or succeeds--either outcome is valid)

7. Validation (shows that the story is over)



The thing is, I can’t fit the Miller’s Tale into anything approximating this outline. Am I missing something? I’m sure there’s more than one way to structure a tale, but the variance is so great that I’m wondering you think of this? Are they simply different approaches? Does the Miller’s Tale actually conform to this model and I’m missing it?

The other question I have is about dialogue formatting. I sometimes like to have one character interrupt the other, and I use an ellipsis to indicate the break in the sentence, but I’ve read in your posts that an ellipsis denotes a pause. Is there a better way to achieve the effect of dialogue interrupting dialogue? Example:

“If only I could have a steak, medium rare with...”
“Shut up about what you want for lunch and eat your MRE.”

Thanks, Jim, and the other posters. I really appreciate the work you’ve put into this thread.

[alanna]

Hi Sean! Umm... that's a very good question. Usually I denote an interruption with a dash, for instance:

"But-"
"No buts!"

Alright, I know. Horrible dialogue. Give me a break, I just wrote over a thousand words in less than half an hour. I'm a bit tapped at the moment. Uncle Jim- is this right? Or wrong? Or totally acceptable only if you're a freak of nature- which I am, so that would be fine.

[triceretops]

I also use the dash an a dialogue breaker.

Tri

[reph]

The Chicago manual says to use an em dash at the end of an interrupted speech.

Ellipses in fiction look wrong to me. The only truly proper use of an ellipsis I know of is to indicate missing words (or numbers: remember "1, 2, 3, . . . , n" in math?). Fiction writers nowadays use them for pauses and for speech that trails off. I'm too old.

[maestrowork]

... is for pauses, stuttering, or trailing off...

-- is for disrupted speech, or abrupt stop --


"I think...uh...that you should, maybe..."
"What did you say?"
"I am just wondering if--"
"Oh, I see, you want a raise."
"Yes, I deser--I mean I'd like one."

[Sean Bosker]

Thanks, alanna, trice, and reph! Looks like the dash will replace my ellipses.

[James D. Macdonald]

Ah, the seven-point plot outline! (Not to be confused with the three point plot outline.)

It works for the stories that follow the seven-point plot outline. It doesn't work for the rest. (Which is to say that I'm not a big fan of this particular Procrustean bed.)

Advantages of the seven-point plot outline:

It's easy to teach.
It gives the writer something definite to do.

Disadvantages:

You wind up with a story that follows the seven-point plot outline just like 4,529 of the other stories that hit Asimov's mailbox this month.


================

If it helps you get words on paper, follow it. Else, don't.

================

The three-point plot outline:

1) Get the hero up a tree.

2) Throw rocks at him.

3) Get the hero out of the tree.

[reph]

... is for pauses, stuttering, or trailing off...
Nothing personal, Ray, but do you have an authoritative source that endorses using "..." in those ways?

[Medievalist]

Whether you use em-dashes, --, or ellipses to indicate broken speech doesn't matter. Just standardize the way you use them; it's a matter of house style, and the final decision is going to be made by the editor -- or the typesetter.

Just, for Pity's sake, don't pull a Barbara Cartland . . .

[maestrowork]

Nothing personal, Ray, but do you have an authoritative source that endorses using "..." in those ways?

From the many books I've read.

However, just for yucks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis

In particular:

An ellipsis can also be used to indicate a pause in speech, or be used at the end of a sentence to indicate a trailing off into silence.

[reph]

I meant something more authoritative, like a usage manual on the level of Chicago or AP. Finding ellipses used for trailing speech in many books means only that many writers (or a few prolific ones) use them that way. Wikipedia – well, where do its contributors get their information?

[loquax]

I take the stance that the English language is ours to use however we like. If hundreds of authors use ellipses in their works to indicate pauses, then that's authoritative enough for me. Surely an editor would say 'this is wrong, take them out'. And what's some guy in Chicago to tell them they're wrong in the first place? Isn't he the one who chose to leave out the 'u' in your spelling of 'colour'? I'd fire him.

[aruna]

It doesn't really matter what we use. Every publisher has their house style and adapt it to that anyway.

[Christine N.]

Nothing personal, Ray, but do you have an authoritative source that endorses using "..." in those ways?

I found it in explained just that way in "Self Editing for Fiction Writers."

[Ken Schneider]

Seven point outline,three point outline.

I just write, and find when looking back at previous works, that my writing ends up with these factors anyway.

I'm sort of confused. I don't outline or do any fancy tricks to write. I have a story idea, and a thought of where it will start,a middle, and an end.

I start writing, ideas flow, the story and characters tell me what they will do by their previous actions.

Am I going about this the wrong way? Or, as I have, do what works for me?

I write, the story comes out naturally.


Do people really go through a paintaking process of outlining chapters and making the process of writing a job, instead of the joy of something they love to do?

I think I'll just write, and leave all that thinking stuff to the pro's.

[scribbler1382]

Seven point outline,three point outline.

I just write, and find when looking back at previous works, that my writing ends up with these factors anyway.

I'm sort of confused. I don't outline or do any fancy tricks to write. I have a story idea, and a thought of where it will start,a middle, and an end.

I start writing, ideas flow, the story and characters tell me what they will do by their previous actions.

Am I going about this the wrong way? Or, as I have, do what works for me?

I write, the story comes out naturally.


Do people really go through a paintaking process of outlining chapters and making the process of writing a job, instead of the joy of something they love to do?

I think I'll just write, and leave all that thinking stuff to the pro's.

You're confused. Did you just have a conversation with yourself? Well, thanks for letting us watch. I guess.

[Ken Schneider]

You're confused. Did you just have a conversation with yourself? Well, thanks for letting us watch. I guess.

I'm still confused, as that picture on your post appears to be Rod Sterling, instead of... Rod Serling.

Works both ways my friend, Let us try to be civil, not snide in our comments.

I asked two questions that I thought pertained to other writers, of which I wasn't aware. If you care to answer those with any knowledge you have, feel free.

Ken Schneider

[reph]

If hundreds of authors use ellipses in their works to indicate pauses, then that's authoritative enough for me....And what's some guy in Chicago to tell them they're wrong in the first place?
The "guy" is the editors at the University of Chicago Press.

I understand your point; I'm just not sure popularity makes a thing correct. After all, most writers use "comprise" inside out.

When did use of ellipses for pauses and trailing off become widespread? I don't remember seeing it until recently. That doesn't mean it wasn't there, but in my reading it seems to have appeared suddenly, and not at all in journalism and other nonfiction.

[maestrowork]

Reph, I think the Chicago only talks about the use of ellipses in citations, but not in dialogue or fiction. I don't have another authoritative source. But one can speculate where Wikipedia gets their sources.

The thing is, writers can write what they want, but if the mss. go through the whole editorial process by professional editors at BIG publishers that use specific (sometimes strict) style guides, then I should think even if the Chicago doesn't directly address the usage, we need to consider the merit of such convention, adopted by almost all major publishers and their editors.

Don't you think?

(Even if it's a recent thing, I'd still go with it since language is a living thing. I think if contemporary fiction uses ellipses this way, I have no problem following it)

[James D. Macdonald]

Do people really go through a paintaking process of outlining chapters and making the process of writing a job, instead of the joy of something they love to do?

Some people do. It works for them. They enjoy doing it that way.

It's been entirely too long since I handed out an assignment. Memorize The Walrus and the Carpenter. Memorize the Death of Kings from Richard II. Okay, here's the next:

Memorize, and be prepared to recite from memory, "In the Neolithic Age" (http://whitewolf.newcastle.edu.au/words/authors/K/KiplingRudyard/verse/volumeXI/neolithicage.html) by Rudyard Kipling.

I promise you that this will improve your writing.

[Ken Schneider]

Some people do. It works for them. They enjoy doing it that way.

It's been entirely too long since I handed out an assignment. Memorize The Walrus and the Carpenter. Memorize the Death of Kings from Richard II. Okay, here's the next:

Memorize, and be prepared to recite from memory, "In the Neolithic Age" (http://whitewolf.newcastle.edu.au/words/authors/K/KiplingRudyard/verse/volumeXI/neolithicage.html) by Rudyard Kipling.

I promise you that this will improve your writing.


I will accept that assignment, I'm all for learning and improving.

[reph]

Reph, I think the Chicago only talks about the use of ellipses in citations, but not in dialogue or fiction....

...if the mss. go through the whole editorial process by professional editors at BIG publishers that use specific (sometimes strict) style guides, then I should think even if the Chicago doesn't directly address the usage, we need to consider the merit of such convention, adopted by almost all major publishers and their editors....

(Even if it's a recent thing, I'd still go with it since language is a living thing....)
Chicago does address dialogue: it says to use dashes for "interruptions or breaks in faltering speech." The manual was written for the guidance of those writing (and editing, translating, etc.) scholarly nonfiction; it doesn't say everything fiction writers need to know about style. That's why I'm asking about other sources.

Have these other uses of ellipses really been adopted by "almost all major publishers" or just some publishers? American and British publishers both? How far back do ellipses for pauses go? If they began to appear in books ten years ago, it may or may not be a genuine historical change. Accepted changes in punctuation are slower than that. We don't use colons the way the King James Bible committee did, but they worked 400 years ago.

I have a problem with the "editors as gatekeepers" reasoning, because copy editors aren't trained as thoroughly as they used to be.

I'm wondering whether these uses of ellipses started as expressive devices in comic books, where captions carry much of the drama:

Our hero arrives at the scene of the crime...

or

Two weeks have passed and...

[alanna]

ooh goody! an assignment!

[Doyle]

I am down to the end of page 4, you remember all those years ago -- subimitted in Courier 12, but made my little header with name/title/page# in Courier 10. It kinda "softened" the top of the page but kept everything uniform. I will try and find Myrtle the Manuscript and the Unstrung Harp, but what I know about most things, it often comes down to a "break" -- ie, your good work arrives at the right time with the right person, just when someone else failed to fulfill the very need your good work suddenly addresses. Nature abhors a vacuum. So I will write well and submit, submit, submit . . . and many thanks for your advice thus far.

Doyle

[jules]

How far back do ellipses for pauses go?

"There is one thing," I said, to allay the fears I had aroused; "they are the most sluggish things I ever saw crawl. They may keep the pit and kill people who come near them, but they cannot get out of it. . . . But the horror of them!"

From The War of the Worlds by H. G. Wells, first published in 1898. I don't know for certain that it was set like that in the first edition, but I can't think how else that effect might have been achieved.

[cwfgal]

I'm still confused, as that picture on your post appears to be Rod Sterling, instead of... Rod Serling.

Ken Schneider

The picture you refer to looks like Rod Serling to me, he of "Twilight Zone" fame. Who is Rod Sterling?

Beth

[Ken Schneider]

Well then that would be my mistake, which I apoligize for.

Thank you for pointing it out.

I guess I'll make Absolute Write, read only.

And I thought this was a writing thread, not a shark tank.

[loquax]

Ken, Marty had a good point that your post seemed to answer its own questions. The reply may have been 'snide', but I think it was just. It was probably the slight hint of 'bigging yourself up' that promoted such a reply.

If a response is what you're after, here's mine. I don't use those systems. I don't think many people do. They are not so much guidelines as observations of how most plotlines follow; there to give you a small nudge in the right direction. I think you'll find that most people write the same way you do. Am I right?

[James D. Macdonald]

Here's my take on the ellipsis v. em-dash discussion:

1) Don't confuse your readers.

2) Be consistent.

(Point 2 may actually be a subset of point 1.)

If the place that buys your book has a house style, they'll follow it. If you have strong objections to the style, discuss it with your editor.

If you disagree with the Chicago Manual of Style, take a pen and correct the book. First, however, you have to read the Chicago Manual so you know what's in it. Understand why you agree or disagree with any of their suggestions. (And anything they have is, in truth, just a suggestion.)

The only rule is: Don't bore your reader.

[triceretops]

Just finished my novel last night. Thanks Jim, picked up many jewels from your board. One paticular sentence of yours stuck out more than any other and was the motive for the powerful push.

It's just one damn thing after another.

Of course, it is much more complicated than that, but that pretty much gave me my motto for the rest of my life.
Triceratops

[scribbler1382]

Ken, Marty had a good point that your post seemed to answer its own questions. The reply may have been 'snide', but I think it was just. It was probably the slight hint of 'bigging yourself up' that promoted such a reply.

If a response is what you're after, here's mine. I don't use those systems. I don't think many people do. They are not so much guidelines as observations of how most plotlines follow; there to give you a small nudge in the right direction. I think you'll find that most people write the same way you do. Am I right?

As I told him privately, it wasn't meant as snide. It was meant as a good-humored "hey, I don't know if you noticed it, but look what you wrote! That's hilarious! Maybe you should repost with a little more clarity." I was rebuffed in private and obviously someone's still in a bad mood. Not much else I can say.

(BTW, Rod Sterling is a porn actor.) :)

P.S. In order to not pollute this fine thread any further, this is the last I'll speak of it.

[BenMears]

Some people do. It works for them. They enjoy doing it that way.

It's been entirely too long since I handed out an assignment. Memorize The Walrus and the Carpenter. Memorize the Death of Kings from Richard II. Okay, here's the next:

Memorize, and be prepared to recite from memory, "In the Neolithic Age" (http://whitewolf.newcastle.edu.au/words/authors/K/KiplingRudyard/verse/volumeXI/neolithicage.html) by Rudyard Kipling.

I promise you that this will improve your writing.

Thanks for the assignment, Teach. Quite a vocabulary lesson. Sure I'm mispronouncing half of it and will never get some of the references. (Who or what is Traill, for instance?) So, I probably won't be able to recite, but the point it makes is the true gen.

[scribbler1382]

Memorize, and be prepared to recite from memory, "In the Neolithic Age" (http://whitewolf.newcastle.edu.au/words/authors/K/KiplingRudyard/verse/volumeXI/neolithicage.html) by Rudyard Kipling.

I promise you that this will improve your writing.

I'll be damned. I always wondered where that saying came from.

Quite enjoyable. Thanks, Jim.

[James D. Macdonald]

Traill was most likely H. D. Traill, editor of Literature, a weekly review.

Other vocabulary: Dwerg: dwarf.
Solutré, Crenelle: French prehistoric sites.
Allobrogenses: ancient Gallic tribe.
Kew, Clapham: London suburbs.
Khatmandhu: capital of Nepal.
Martaban: town in Burma.

Being a writer means you have homework every day. Words are your tools. History is your secret weapon. Read something every day. Write something every day.

This is no easy art.

[BenMears]

:flag:
So much for my excuses. Guess I'll have to memorize the thing. Be forewarned that when I see you, I will recite it, and I may still not have the proper pronunciation.

[reph]

[Example of ellipsis to indicate pause in speech]

From The War of the Worlds by H. G. Wells, first published in 1898. I don't know for certain that it was set like that in the first edition, but I can't think how else that effect might have been achieved.
Thanks. That's the kind of thing I meant. It seems to me that punctuation in fiction of that time was more varied than punctuation now. You'd see a period followed by a dash, for instance, which might have been used where some writers now use three dots. Books from around 1850-1900 (rough numbers) might have 3-em dashes in places. Maybe those features resulted from typesetters' attempts to render handwritten manuscripts.

Evidently, many current fiction writers believe in using ellipses for pauses, but if it's become accepted in the sense of being genuinely correct, why don't I see it in nonfiction books?

[Sean Bosker]

Seven point outline,three point outline.

I just write, and find when looking back at previous works, that my writing ends up with these factors anyway.

snip

Do people really go through a paintaking process of outlining chapters and making the process of writing a job, instead of the joy of something they love to do?

I think I'll just write, and leave all that thinking stuff to the pro's.


Is this a rhetorical question? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and answer it in good faith. I got a degree in creative writing 15 years ago from SF State and while I learned a lot about postmodern stories and experimental poetry, I didn't really learn the fundamentals of storytelling and the basic craft of writing.

I started writing SF a couple of years ago because I noticed that that SF writers seem to have a tremendous respect for their audience. They actually write for their audience, and they focus on the basics of storytelling. I find this approach fantastic and much needed. For me, it has meant a new investigation of things like outlines and plot structure, things my own writing sorely needed.

Apparently, you're a natural. You write stories based on what you feel like doing, and before you know it, you've composed something that contains all the necessary elements of a well-written story. That's fantastic news for you, I look forward to reading your work. Nothing carries me away like a well-written novel by a natural talent.

Unfortunately for me, I have a facility for writing and I have a creative mind, but I lack the organizational skills to intuitively hit all the marks in a story when I just let myself write away. I really need to examine what I'm doing. I need to do some forethought before I write, and I need to look for what I may be lacking.

This process is difficult. It puts the "pain" in painstaking. I'm no friend of hard work, I'm a lazy, lazy man. That's how I got through four years of a creative writing program without ever reading Shakespeare and without grasping the fundamentals of story telling. Now I'm 36 and I'm trying to bring a bit of discipline and humility to my work that was much needed.

It's not a thrill ride, it's a slow and sometimes not very fun slog. I do it because I find rewards in accomplishing, in learning, and in growing as a writer. It is a labor of love for me, with an emphasis on labor.

As for the fancy tricks, the suggestion in the 7 point plot that the hero try and fail at least once was very beneficial to me. I just finished a short story that included more tension due to my addition, in the outline, of an episode in which my main character makes a big mistake. I didn't exactly conform to the 7 point model, but thinking about my story in that way enabled me to throw another rock at my character before getting him out of the tree. Hopefully, that aspect will be something that a reader likes, after all, that's who I'm hoping to entertain.

Jim, thanks for your 3 point plot. It's hard for me to strike a balance between taking new suggestions and hewing too close to the model. I'm a bit of an all-or nothing type of thinker, which has its limitations.

[BenMears]

Evidently, many current fiction writers believe in using ellipses for pauses, but if it's become accepted in the sense of being genuinely correct, why don't I see it in nonfiction books?

When I use an ellipsis for a pause (or, more commonly, for a speaker trailing off without finishing the last thought/sentence), it is always in dialogue. Many non-fiction books contain no dialogue. In ones that do, I have seen the ellipsis used similarly.

[J. Y. Moore]

Ah, the seven-point plot outline! (Not to be confused with the three point plot outline.)

It works for the stories that follow the seven-point plot outline. It doesn't work for the rest. (Which is to say that I'm not a big fan of this particular Procrustean bed.)

Advantages of the seven-point plot outline:

It's easy to teach.
It gives the writer something definite to do.

Disadvantages:

You wind up with a story that follows the seven-point plot outline just like 4,529 of the other stories that hit Asimov's mailbox this month.


================

If it helps you get words on paper, follow it. Else, don't.

================

The three-point plot outline:

1) Get the hero up a tree.

2) Throw rocks at him.

3) Get the hero out of the tree.
Hey Jim, loved your "Procrustean Bed" reference (had to look it up but it can certainly apply in many places)!

Three point/seven/etc. point outline systems:

We've discussed submission outlines previously. If one expands from the three-point, to the seven-point, to ad infinitum, you now have the outline of your ms for submission. For a proposal on a non-fiction project, this would be essential. At the same time, if you contract that full-blown outline back into the three-point, you have your one or two sentence summary for submission don't you? Of course, if you are giving your prospective publisher/agent a flap summary, you may want to leave off point #3 :). Whether you write in this fashion or not, you need to be able to boil your story/project down to bare bones at some point in time.

Personally, I find the 3-point suggested here extremely helpful (as well as humorously put) since I tend to be too verbose. Ergo, I have trouble being succinct, particularly in my query letters (my Procrustean bed - ugh - I'm too tall for the damned thing).

J. Y. (Jean) Moore

[J. Y. Moore]

Here's my take on the ellipsis v. em-dash discussion:

1) Don't confuse your readers.

2) Be consistent.

(Point 2 may actually be a subset of point 1.)

If the place that buys your book has a house style, they'll follow it. If you have strong objections to the style, discuss it with your editor.

If you disagree with the Chicago Manual of Style, take a pen and correct the book. First, however, you have to read the Chicago Manual so you know what's in it. Understand why you agree or disagree with any of their suggestions. (And anything they have is, in truth, just a suggestion.)

The only rule is: Don't bore your reader.
Of course, there are times you may want your reader confused, briefly, to build a certain tension and anticipation, so long as you unravel those knots and provide a solution. Ellipsis may or may not be the way to do this. As Jim says, consistency in the way you handle the usage is essential so as not to add to the confusion in a way that would be a distraction and therefore detrimental to your reader's concentration on your story/characters.

http://www.dictionary.com uses this definition:

"el·lip·sis ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-lpss)
n. pl. el·lip·ses (-sz)

1. The omission of a word or phrase necessary for a complete syntactical construction but not necessary for understanding.
An example of such omission.
2. A mark or series of marks (... or * * *, for example) used in writing or printing to indicate an omission, especially of letters or words."

I suppose there are places where the "***" might work, but it is not something I would necessarily find useful.

Personally, I find the "... " ellipsis extremely useful in showing an interruption in the though process. Somehow, dashes and em-dashes just don't convey the staccato stuttering I need in some places to convey that horrified or surprised skittering to a dead stop of the thought processes of a character.

J. Y. (Jean) Moore

[reph]

I suppose there are places where the "***" might work, but it is not something I would necessarily find useful.
"* * *" had a significant use at one time in literature. Formerly, sex scenes were written as a row of asterisks clear across the page. Using only three asterisks might have insulted the characters by implying that the sex was brief.

[loquax]

Here's a quirky question - I'm not sure if it's been raised before. What's everybody's stance on book-covers and illustrations? I know the old saying goes 'never judge a book by its cover', but people still do it. Do you reckon that really bad cover-art might put potential buyers off? If so, do authors get any say in it?

It might not have much to do with writing, but I'm sure it's an important part of the process.

[DreamWeaver]

What's everybody's stance on book-covers and illustrations? I know the old saying goes 'never judge a book by its cover', but people still do it. Do you reckon that really bad cover-art might put potential buyers off? If so, do authors get any say in it?I'll admit to being shallow enough that, when browsing, a really nice cover illustration on a book can entice me into picking up that book and looking at the back cover blurb and the first few pages. However, if I'm looking for a specific book, the cover art of that book has no effect at all. I might wish the cover were nicer, or be pleased that the cover is gorgeous, but if I went to the bookstore to buy that book, I'm buying it regardless.

I have no idea how much input the author gets, though I suspect a successful author with a good track record gets more input. I'm sure others here know more about that aspect.

Kris

[James D. Macdonald]

Traditionally the author's rights as far as cover art consist of bitching about it.

In practical terms, publishers have art departments that work closely with the marketing folks to come up with a cover that will tell the readers "This is the kind of book you're looking for."

Covers aren't meant to be illustrations. They're meant to be point-of-purchase advertisements.

Don't think that the austere black-and-white cover of Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1582344167/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/) is an exception, either. It has the crow graphic, and the typography is distinctive (and undoubtedly hand drawn). That cover too gives you a feel for what the novel will feel like.

Authors can get "cover consultation" in their contracts fairly easily. It's cover approval that's hard to get.

The publisher can easily pay as much for the cover as they do for the novel itself. That's how important covers are.

[PattiTheWicked]

I wandered by the book aisle in Kroger's this evening, and saw a cover so silly I actually laughed out loud. It was a picture of the most Village-People-lookin' Native American I've ever seen, with an expression that probably was meant to convey lust, but instead just made him look constipated. I wish I could remember the title, it was something about Warriors or Brave Something or Other. If I had been that author, I'd be embarassed to have my name on that cover.

[AnneMarble]

I wandered by the book aisle in Kroger's this evening, and saw a cover so silly I actually laughed out loud. It was a picture of the most Village-People-lookin' Native American I've ever seen, with an expression that probably was meant to convey lust, but instead just made him look constipated. I wish I could remember the title, it was something about Warriors or Brave Something or Other. If I had been that author, I'd be embarassed to have my name on that cover.
Sounds like the covers on Cassie Edwards' novels. (There are others in that vein, such as Connie Mason and Madeline Baker, but Cassie Edwards is one of most popular in the "Indian bride" romance subgenre.)

If it's one of hers, she is probably quite proud of the cover. She has found a niche, and her covers advertise that niche. For years, her covers have been very distinctive -- they even use the same model. From what I've seen in interviews, etc., he is proud of appearing on her covers (and they garner great publicity for him), and she seems happy to be associated with such a popular cover model. Also, those covers help her readers find her books quickly.

This reminds me of some of the discussions I've seen in the science fiction newsgroup. Some of the serious fantasy fans proudly state that if the cover shows a dragon, they will not buy the book -- because fantasy novels dragons on the covers often turn out to be the kind of books they don't like. Once, a fantasy/SF writer in the group pointed out that when his books had dragons on the cover, they sold many many more covers. So their unofficial "boycotts" didn't mean much in the end. Marketing knows what will work.

[jules]

Do you reckon that really bad cover-art might put potential buyers off?

Yes. It does me; I've frequently put books down because they have really cliche cover art that left me with a negative feeling of the book in general. Usually this only happens at the second hand bookshop; it might have a lot to do with the covers feeling "old fashioned" in some way, which generally doesn't happen with modern books.

Although there is one recent book in my collection that I picked up based on a recommendation, and which I look at the cover and generally think I never would have bought it if it wasn't recommended to me.

[James D. Macdonald]

The purpose of the book's cover is to say "This is the kind of book you like if you like books like this."

If some group doesn't like books that have dragons on the cover and won't buy them, then putting dragons on the cover serves both them and the author.

Would it be better that they buy the book, not like it, and never buy another book by that author? I don't think so.

[Roger J Carlson]

When I was a kid, I bought a lot of Science Fiction based on the lurid covers. So what is a "bad" cover by one estimate might be good by another. I read some trash by this method, but I also ran into a lot of good authors -- Asimov, Heinlein, Anderson, Zelazny... Once I knew the author, then I bought by name. But until you know the name, you have to decide by something. For me, it was, and still is in many ways, the cover.

BTW, Jim, I was accepted to Viable Paradise!

[AnneMarble]

The purpose of the book's cover is to say "This is the kind of book you like if you like books like this."
I think that's why some writers are better off not having anything to do with their covers. If they did, they'd refuse to allow dragons or hunk covers or whatever their personal bugaboo is.

If some group doesn't like books that have dragons on the cover and won't buy them, then putting dragons on the cover serves both them and the author.

Would it be better that they buy the book, not like it, and never buy another book by that author? I don't think so.
The sad thing is that some of them don't really hate dragons, they just hate some of the fantasy novels that have had dragons. I guess they are protecting themselves, although in some cases, I think they are protecting themselves out of getting to read some perfectly fine books. (In many cases, word of mouth and reviews can help them find out what books they would like despite the cover.)

Also, some readers may simply be a little... nutz? I've heard of people refusing to buy books simply because the title mentioned dragons (as a metaphor) or the cover blurb mentioned that a person was called "The Dragon of So-and-So" or something like that. No matter how often someone explained that there was no dragon in the book, they refused to try reading it. It says "dragon," so it must be bad fantasy with adorable wise dragons in it. Maybe the author is better off not getting that reader anyway -- even if he doesn't come across dragons, he might find some other excuse to hate that writer. :(

[loquax]

Do authors write the blurb? Because they can be terrible too.

[jlawrenceperry]

It seems to me a bit self-serving to write one's own blurb, because one is drawn to use things to describe the tale that color it in a positive light. I suppose you might call it advertising, but still...

I have yet to memorize the Shakespeare thing, so it's been up on my wall so I can read it every day.

now typing last chapter in novel! WOOOOOOO! (gosh, sorry, hate to use exclamation points) Woo.

[PattiTheWicked]

When I was a kid, I bought a lot of Science Fiction based on the lurid covers.

Me too, but that was because I wanted to grow up to look like all those babes in chain-mail bikinis.

[James D. Macdonald]

Do authors write the blurb? Because they can be terrible too.

The blurbs are usually written by freelance copyrwriters, for about $100 to $150 per.

[Nangleator]

The blurbs are usually written by freelance copyrwriters, for about $100 to $150 per.
Oof. That's a lot of work for a little cash. Do they get to read the author's synopsis, or do they have to slog through the first few chapters to come up with the blurbs?

Either way, $/hr. comes out pretty tiny, particularly if the marketing department is picky.

[James D. Macdonald]

It's still two to three times as much as freelance slush readers make.

[Sharon Mock]

If you have a dragon in your book, you can't complain if it ends up on the cover. Though I'm given to understand that some published authors feel differently on the matter.

BTW, Jim, I was accepted to Viable Paradise!

Same here. I'll see you there!

[Christine N.]

<hangs head in shame> I have dragons in my book. Some are nice, some are, well, not. And the illustrator has drawn a picture of the MC and the dragon... it's probably my favorite illo so far. AND he might use that image as part of the cover.

So there.

[Nangleator]

<hangs head in shame> I have dragons in my book.
Actually, I associate dragons with your name for some reason... I almost haven't read all of your posts for that reason.

:ROFL:

Actually, I have good memories of dragons on covers due to Anne McCaffrey and Michael Whelan.

It's still two to three times as much as freelance slush readers make.
Geez. Are there any jobs in this industry where they beat you daily, and your 'paycheck' is getting to smell money?

[black winged fighter]

I guess I'm weird in that if there's a dragon on the book, I expect some sort of hint in the cover...It's happened before that when I pick up a book, and half-way through it becomes a There Be Dragons scenario, I stop for a moment and stare at the cover to see why it didn't tell me what to expect.
Not that I hate 'dragon books.' Some of my favorite books had dragons on the cover...

[black winged fighter]

I guess I'm weird in that if there's a dragon on the book, I expect some sort of hint in the cover...It's happened before that when I pick up a book, and half-way through it becomes a There Be Dragons scenario, I stop for a moment and stare at the cover to see why it didn't tell me what to expect.
Not that I hate 'dragon books.' Some of my favorite books had dragons on the cover...

[AnneMarble]

Geez. Are there any jobs in this industry where they beat you daily, and your 'paycheck' is getting to smell money?
Yes. It's called the Writer.

:banana:

[HConn]

Dang! Anne beat me to the punch line.

Have fun at Viable Paradise, you guys. Be sure to give a report afterwards.

[jlawrenceperry]

DONE DONE DONE
THE NOVEL IS FINALLY DONE
I'VE EDITS TO DO
BUT THE PLOT IS THROUGH
MY FIRST NOVEL'S FINALLY DONE

[alaskamatt17]

Congratulations! I remember my first novel ... but I won't go into details on that mess.

Hearing about your success makes me wish I could go faster on my current WIP.

[black winged fighter]

Congrats - I'm busy with editing, too, right now...And a new WIP at the same time...

[loquax]

I just finished writing another chapter, and I realised that my characters hadn't eaten or gone to the toilet in a whole day. I then had to go back through it and sneak in little paragraphs detailing these things. Does this get in your way, too? Can't we just leave those things out and use the excuse of artistic licence? It can very easily disrupt the flow of a story, but not including them detracts from the realism in obvious ways. What's an author to do?

[Christine N.]

DONE DONE DONE
THE NOVEL IS FINALLY DONE
I'VE EDITS TO DO
BUT THE PLOT IS THROUGH
MY FIRST NOVEL'S FINALLY DONE

Woo Hoo! Take a day off, then start the next one. I say that, since

MY CURRENT NOVEL IS DONE! Like really done, edited and all. Queried it to my publisher last night. I am giving myself permission for a day off, then back to the other book that I started before I started the heavy editing and polishing.

[Andrew Jameson]

I just finished writing another chapter, and I realised that my characters hadn't eaten or gone to the toilet in a whole day. I then had to go back through it and sneak in little paragraphs detailing these things. Does this get in your way, too? Can't we just leave those things out and use the excuse of artistic licence? It can very easily disrupt the flow of a story, but not including them detracts from the realism in obvious ways. What's an author to do?Silly question, perhaps, but are you actually chronicling every single minute of the day for every single character? If so, why? I mean, surely your character do boring things at some point throughout the day, right? Heck, I stare out the window for minutes at a time. I spend an inordinate amount of time deciding what to eat for lunch. I scratch myself inappropriately. All boring.

It's part of the author's job to pare away all the boring things that his or her characters do. If it ain't part of the story, staring and scratching and eating and pooping are all boring. Cut it.

Point is, I would think (and this isn't necessarliy true, so think about it) that your characters would tend to spend more time off-stage than on, traveling and working and sleeping and doing whatever other mundane chores one might expect *between* scenes rather than *during* scenes. I figure readers will assume that Joe Protagonist takes a leak sometime between chapters five and six while he's off stage, and doesn't hold his bladder through the whole book.

IMO, of course.

[Roger J Carlson]

I just finished writing another chapter, and I realised that my characters hadn't eaten or gone to the toilet in a whole day. I then had to go back through it and sneak in little paragraphs detailing these things. Does this get in your way, too? Can't we just leave those things out and use the excuse of artistic licence? It can very easily disrupt the flow of a story, but not including them detracts from the realism in obvious ways. What's an author to do?You don't have to tell your readers every time people eat or go to the bathroom. It can be assumed unless the character is in a position where these things are impossible. For instance, if you have a character hide in a closet for 36 hours and make no mention of eating, drinking, or voiding, it is not realisitic. I've seen this kind of thing happen in too many novels, and it always bugs me.

[loquax]

For instance, if you have a character hide in a closet for 36 hours and make no mention of eating, drinking, or voiding, it is not realisitic. I've seen this kind of thing happen in too many novels, and it always bugs me.

That's what I'm getting at. Of course I dont account every single minute of every character, but there are times when you might write about six solid hours. The climax of a novel may take an entire day. I'm not really one to write things like "June was heavy with rain, and they travelled for three years, and reached Mologarathahad with low spirits." I normally account things as they happen, so that kind of stuff can easily get in the way.

[maestrowork]

I just finished writing another chapter, and I realised that my characters hadn't eaten or gone to the toilet in a whole day. I then had to go back through it and sneak in little paragraphs detailing these things. Does this get in your way, too? Can't we just leave those things out and use the excuse of artistic licence? It can very easily disrupt the flow of a story, but not including them detracts from the realism in obvious ways. What's an author to do?

Just leave those things out, unless the eating and going to the bathroom are necessary in your story. The readers understand. I mean, unless you follow the character every second throughout the day...

Look at 24. The story happens in real time but you seldom see these characters eat or go to the bathroom. If it's not part of the story, it's not part of the story. No one will tell you "it's not realistic" because the character doesn't pee every few hours.

[aruna]

I just finished writing another chapter, and I realised that my characters hadn't eaten or gone to the toilet in a whole day. I then had to go back through it and sneak in little paragraphs detailing these things. Does this get in your way, too? Can't we just leave those things out and use the excuse of artistic licence? It can very easily disrupt the flow of a story, but not including them detracts from the realism in obvious ways. What's an author to do?

I remember after I finished the Da Vinci Code it occured to me that these characters hadn't even SLEPT for days at end, as far as I could recall - it seemed to me they just spent days rushing from one place to the next. Doesn't seem to have hurt it on the market. Readers are very forgiving - unless, as someone said, the omission of these details makes the plot somehow unbelievable.

[J. Y. Moore]

Yes. It does me; I've frequently put books down because they have really cliche cover art that left me with a negative feeling of the book in general. Usually this only happens at the second hand bookshop; it might have a lot to do with the covers feeling "old fashioned" in some way, which generally doesn't happen with modern books.

Although there is one recent book in my collection that I picked up based on a recommendation, and which I look at the cover and generally think I never would have bought it if it wasn't recommended to me.
Back to covers: When I first completed my ms and was looking for publishers, I remember finding one that I immediately rejected simply because the covers on their published works looked uniformly cheap. They had all definitely been done by the same illustrator (the term "artist" doesn't seem appropriate). I have no recollection as to which publisher they were or even what type of publisher they were (I suspect they were a POD/vanity/self), but I certainly did not want the association.

[Ken Schneider]

That's what I'm getting at. Of course I dont account every single minute of every character, but there are times when you might write about six solid hours. The climax of a novel may take an entire day. I'm not really one to write things like "June was heavy with rain, and they travelled for three years, and reached Mologarathahad with low spirits." I normally account things as they happen, so that kind of stuff can easily get in the way.

My opinion is that if it is appropriate to the scene, write it.

If a group of guys are in the bar drinking beer, then one can say,
"I'll be right back, I have to take a leak." It fits the scene. Of course, this would be the guy you were trying to get rid of so that everyone else could talk about him, or a situation he's involved in.

It would depend on the situation. If you send the character into the woods to go to the potty, then something better happen to him or his cohorts while he's gone.

It's a given that they would do these things somewhere during the day, when reading a book, I don't need to know that unless it relates to plot or scene.

MTC.
Ken

[maestrowork]

If you MUST include eating, drinking, or potty stuff, work it into the scene. Maybe when two characters are talking in the bar, the third could go take a leak. Or they would meet at a restaurant. Or if the person is captive for a long time (like in a cell or something, or stuck in the woods), have the person munch on something: berries, dried fruits, etc. or describe the place hinting at urine or something...

Always do what the scene requires. In my book I have scenes where they eat, talk, do things, excuse themselves to go to the bathroom, etc. but these details never distract from the scene and the action. They're just part of it. When you work the detail in just right, it does enhance the verisimilitude of your scenes.

But if you can keep your readers captive and in the dream state, no one is going to stop and ask, "Hey, wait a minute..."

p.s. I have gone for more than 12 hours without eating or going to the bathroom... so it can be done.

[James D. Macdonald]

The question is whether the potty break advances the plot, reveals character, or supports the theme.

Dutch Shultz undoubtedly went to the bathroom many times in his life. The only time worth mentioning was one night at the Palace Chop House and Tavern in Newark, New Jersey.

[loquax]

So it doesn't matter if your characters go for days on end without mentioning them eating? That makes things a lot easier.

[James D. Macdonald]

It only matters if it matters to your readers.

[reph]

loquax, have you looked at how your favorite authors handle the "bathroom break" problem? Characters in a novel don't eat or use the toilet as often as real people because the author tracks them only during selected slices out of their day – that is, scenes. If, during a scene in Chapter 1, two characters have lunch together, of course eating will be part of the action. But if one of those characters vanishes until Chapter 12, which takes place a week later, readers won't assume he hasn't eaten in between.

You don't read novels where a character turns up in the middle of the book and says "Wow, I'm hungry. I haven't had a bite since Chapter 1."

Characters presumably dress, undress, bathe, floss their teeth, and pay their bills between scenes, too. Writers just don't mention it.

[loquax]

reph - I think you and others have got the wrong end of the stick. The question was whether it is plausible to have commentary running for perhaps an entire day with one character in the spotlight without them eating, sleeping, or going to the toilet. The bottom line is which is more important - realism and consistency or aesthetics?

[HConn]

I think you should include bathroom breaks if there's going to be moaning or straining involved. Otherwise it isn't as interesting.

Okay, seriously: The opening page of _Atlanta Nights_ (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1411622987/qid=1119465425/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_ur_1/002-0777381-1251262?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) has a character mentioning their need to pee. It doesn't advance the story at all.

Will things be more difficult for the characters if they have to stop at a gas station? Will it help the story or hurt it?

I've read lots of books that never mention toilet breaks. In most cases, I didn't care. Whether you include them or not is one of the creative choices you'll make for yourself, because Site link removed per request of other site's Webmaster

edited because I forgot to add: Congrats to jlp!

[MadScientistMatt]

reph - I think you and others have got the wrong end of the stick. The question was whether it is plausible to have commentary running for perhaps an entire day with one character in the spotlight without them eating, sleeping, or going to the toilet. The bottom line is which is more important - realism and consistency or aesthetics?

Realism does not mean that you have to include the boring parts. Showing characters relieving themselves is not usually of interest unless something very out of the ordinary happens ("Hey, what's with all this blood in my pee?" or a certain scene from Big Daddy with Adam Sandler).

It's true that readers might wonder if you show the characters continually engaged in some long, non-stop task where there is no way they could leave. For example, having the characters run from something, or a man sitting in an interrogation room until they say he can leave (in which case the man having to go is going to be relevant to the scene). Or if you had them trapped in an area with no bathroom - hiding in a closet for days, or pinned down in a foxhole, for example. But if they are doing something in one place, go to another after a few hours, etc, readers will probably assume they had some time off camera. Give your characters a few chapter breaks.

Sleep might be a bit more problematic. If you show a character doing something requring being awake and have him awake during at least one point during all 24 hours, it would be realistic if he were sleepy.

[Lenora Rose]

First off: Congratulations to jlawrenceperry for finishing your first. it's a swell feeling, isn't it? (Okay, i've watched Pleasantville too recently...)

Second: Roger and Sharon, See you at VP! I got my acceptance last week.

As to covers:

I pointedly went out and bought the new rerelease of a book I liked from an author I love specifically because the original release had the worst pastel unicorn shot you've ever seen. But I bought the original when it was all that was available. And I wish Nalo Hopkinson's the Salt Roads had a better cover, but that didn't stop me owning that book, either (So I got a review copy for free. Technicality. I'd have paid for it. But I don't think the cover got her any new fans.)

Bad covers will likely turn me off impulse purchases, but not against recommended authors or people I've previously read. But there's also a vast gap between bad and actually really good which also leaves me cold; the "meh" factor. Some of these are deliberate; using the same cover artist as a currently popular series is a way of implying the story inside would appeal to fans of the first series. It can give the length of several shelves a lookalike feel, a blandness - but it's a blandness that flags certain fans very pointedly.

What i've been wondering about is a new trend in covers: It used to be that faces were widely considered the single best part of a person to show if you weren't going to provide a full scene. There's a reason for this: quick, what's the single most popular National Geographic shot EVER?

But nowadays, the shelves are full of shots of feet, of legs, of backs (Lots and lots of backs), of torsos with the head cut off the top edge of the cover. Or even angles of heads that don't show faces or eyes. It's less prevalent in genre, but even some romances have done so. It's novel, but I do wonder why the industry is going back on several centuries of human psychology?

Not much to say about writing right now. I'm second guessing everything I've written to this point in this draft, and it's all I can do to remind myself, Keep going. "Don't look back until you have it all down. Just keep going. Ack! All the characters sound alike. Fix it in the next draft. Just keep going. Oh, no, how am I using ellipses? Just keep going...."

LRH

[azbikergirl]

The question is whether the potty break advances the plot, reveals character, or supports the theme.
In my medieval fantasy novel, I wanted to separate my two traveling companions so that one could be attacked without the other knowing until after the fact. I had one take a potty break while the other continued on at a slower pace. I guess that could be considered advancing the plot -- it was a means by which I advanced the plot. I couldn't think up a better excuse to separate the two for a short time.
:Shrug:

[reph]

reph - I think you and others have got the wrong end of the stick....The bottom line is which is more important - realism and consistency or aesthetics?
If you follow a character continuously through a whole day, then eating and sleeping should happen, or the situation should make clear why they don't happen (e.g., character is lost in woods without food, must stay awake to avoid predators). Otherwise, readers will wonder, and the story will be too unrealistic. Maybe you can get by without mentioning bathroom functions. Normally, though, a writer leaves the character's side once in a while.

I don't see that it's unaesthetic to describe the meeting of bodily needs that everyone has. Maybe you mean that these incidentals interrupt the main narrative?

quick, what's the single most popular National Geographic shot EVER?
I'm going to guess the 12-year-old Afghan girl with the dramatic eyes.

[loquax]

Maybe you mean that these incidentals interrupt the main narrative?

Indeed, e.g

"Hey, we really need to run. We've been hiding for over two days and I think they've spotted us."
"All right, but can I take a leak first?"
"Go ahead."
"Okay, all done. Let's go."

[maestrowork]

Indeed, e.g

"Hey, we really need to run. We've been hiding for over two days and I think they've spotted us."
"All right, but can I take a leak first?"
"Go ahead."
"Okay, all done. Let's go."

And what's the point of that? It doesn't advance the plot, develop characters or strengthen the theme (unless the theme is "the natural urge for humans to pee whenever they can").

Just do a scene change. Skip the peeing. Your readers can fill in the blanks.

In my book, there's one scene in which the protagonist announces that he has to pee. He goes to the bathroom, does his business... but there's a point for all that. First, the way he slips away from his situation speaks of his character... then something dramatic happens while he's in the bathroom: a major revelation.

When my characters eat, it's part of a scene when things happen -- dialogue, action, plot advancement. It doesn't stop the narrative like in the example above.

Otherwise, I don't chronicle every bodily function of my characters...

A scene break is your friend, pal.

[scribbler1382]

Agreed, and when the time does come when you need to slow down the hero just enough so he <almost> gets nabbed/killed/diaperrash, when you haven't mentioned bodily functions for 8 chapters, its that much more believeable when he says "Sure, the Mexican army is coming, but if I don't take a leak, the gold's going to float away!"

[loquax]

Heh, that was a joke. I was just using it as an example of how stupid that kind of thing can look. But even so, if there was a scene break, would the reader would have to assume in that short period of time that the characters went to the toilet, ate some food, and had a quick nap? That can be almost as unrealistic as not including them in the first place.

[brinkett]

When I'm reading a book, I don't give a lot of thought to the characters eating, drinking, peeing, sleeping. I can't recall a time when I was absorbed in a story and suddenly thought, "but when did he last pee????" If I'm thinking about those things, the book probably sucks anyway and the lack of bathroom breaks or nutrition is the least of its worries.

Assume the reader will fill in the blanks. That doesn't mean never mention such things, just that you don't have to unless there's a point.

[reph]

...if there was a scene break, would the reader would have to assume in that short period of time that the characters went to the toilet, ate some food, and had a quick nap?
Scene 141: The deserters Hank and Bubba need a place to hide from the tzar's army. They find a cave and set up housekeeping there. They build a screen of branches to conceal the cave mouth.

Scene 142: Back at the camp, Sgt. Loquaxsky receives a report from Private Rephenko that Hank and Bubba are missing from the ranks. He sends a detail to look for them.

Scene 143: Hank and Bubba cower at the back of their cave as they hear the tramping of booted feet outside. The soldiers pass by. Whew! The screen worked. Hank and Bubba are safe. Will the reader assume that their stomachs are empty and their bladders are full? No, because the intervening scene took the focus off Hank and Bubba for a while.

[BenMears]

You know, I've written about a third of a novel without one character (not even the dogs or cat) answering the call of nature. But I've had such a good time following this discussion, that I think I must try to work it in somehow. A sort of Hitchcockian cameo. Scholars 30 years from now will comment on how just preceding the climax of each of Ben Mears's novels, a minor character stops to take a squat, thus pointedly commenting on the human condition...

By the way, Big Ups to JLP on finishing your first draft!
:banana:
Now the real writing begins.

[alaskamatt17]

Nobody has gone to the bathroom in any of my books; it's something I do every day, therefor I don't find it interesting enough to write about.

Eating, however, receives some page space in my current book. This is mainly because there are so many dinosaur characters; the herbivores have to eat pretty much all the time, and its usually interesting when the carnivores eat.

[aadams73]

Nobody has gone to the bathroom in any of my books;

Yeah, it has the tendancy to make the pages sticky.

:)


Seriously though, I'll throw the mundane tasks in really briefly like this:

On the way out, I ran a brush through my hair and grabbed an apple before slaming the door behind me.

(crappy example but you get the idea)

[loquax]

I liked your story reph. I was in it.

Lets say that there is one solid scene that lasts a whole day in the POV of one character.

What then? That's my question. I don't want any solutions (I can see very well how a scene break would work). It's a yes/no answer - can you miss out toilet breaks, sleeping, and eating?

They rarely add to the plot, enhance the character or support a theme. But without them your book becomes unrealistic (even if there are ice dragons floating around breathing liquid nitrogen... wait, thats a good idea. Nobody steal it.)

[Andrew Jameson]

Lets say that there is one solid scene that lasts a whole day in the POV of one character.

What then? That's my question. I don't want any solutions (I can see very well how a scene break would work). It's a yes/no answer - can you miss out toilet breaks, sleeping, and eating?
OK, but my question is, what is the character doing all day that's interesting enough to follow him or her in detail, without breaks? Are you really detailing everything the character does, minute by minute? Or do you have parts like,

Here it was. Bubba held the book with trembling hands. The ancient glyphs on the cover read 'Detective Comics 1.' Reverently, he laid the book on the library table and opened to the first brittle page. Finger hovering above the text, he sounded out the first word.

It took the rest of the afternoon to read the entire book, but Bubba was a patient man. When he had sounded out the last word, he closed the cover with a sigh....

In other words, there's a short summary of the action ("It took the rest of the afternoon to read the entire book") within the scene; I don't bother to describe Bubba's action blow-by-blow.

My opinion is that if you've got these types of short summaries, and the character is in a situation where he or she could take a break, like Bubba is, then the reader will assume that your character does what's necessary.

On the other hand, if you really do detail out every single minute of the day without a potty break and without summarizing some parts, then the reader will start to wonder. By the same token, if you do summarize, but leave the character in a situation where, explicitly or implicitly, he can't take a break, then also the reader will start to wonder. For example, if I changed the above to:

Here it was. Bubba held the book with trembling hands. The ancient glyphs on the cover read 'Detective Comics 1.' Reverently, he laid the book on the library table and opened to the first brittle page. Finger hovering above the text, he sounded out the first word.

Bubba stayed planted in his seat the rest of the afternoon, reading the ancient tome. How could he move when there was such knowledge to be gained? When he had sounded out the last word, he closed the cover with a sigh....

Now I've explicitly prevented Bubba from moving during the short summary. If Bubba's exact position is accounted for for an entire day, and he doesn't take a potty break, then yes, I think the reader would notice.

[scribbler1382]

There's a simple solution to this one. Pick up a book or two either similar to your story or by your favorite author and read it. Make sure you have a pencil in hand so you can note points that make you, on an architectural level, say "aha! That's how you do that."

Personally, if I was reading a book that followed a character's every move on such a minute level for more than a few minutes at a time, I'd send the book to Letterman and have him tape it to a watermelon and drop it off the roof of a five-story building.

[oswann]

Write the interesting stuff. If you think it's interesting to have your characters doing something mundane then do it, but what you don't want, above everything else is the reader saying "why am I reading this?".

I have a couple in my book who do absolutely nothing. However in the context this is why they are interesting. I like to transpose the Hitchcockian idea of films being like life with the boring parts cut out.


Os.

[Christine N.]

For some reason I have a lot of food in my last book. But it's because the MC moves to a house with a staff and now has a cook, so some of the scenes are coversations over dinner, so I mention the dinner. Another one is a banquet feast in Ancient Greece, so I mention the food. They eat other times in the book, I'm sure, but they aren't noteworthy.

The only time I mention the bathroom is when the MC first sees it. It's maybe a dozen words long. But I guess they go, if they eat. I just don't write about it.

[loquax]

If Bubba's exact position is accounted for for an entire day, and he doesn't take a potty break, then yes, I think the reader would notice.

That's more like it. It's not as if I'm writing like this all the time. It's just a problem I've bumped into, and you gave your opinion.

But then again, almost EVERYONE else has said "write what's interesting" and "don't bore the reader" in a million different ways. Are you telling me that it's okay for a character not to eat or sleep if the process is boring? That's all I want to hear. YES/NO ANSWER!

[oswann]

Yes.



Os.

[AnneMarble]

For some reason I have a lot of food in my last book. But it's because the MC moves to a house with a staff and now has a cook, so some of the scenes are coversations over dinner, so I mention the dinner. Another one is a banquet feast in Ancient Greece, so I mention the food. They eat other times in the book, I'm sure, but they aren't noteworthy.

I show my characters eating a few times. Maybe that's because my mother is French, and eating is important to our family. ;) Using the current work, some of the times, I show it because interesting things happen during the meal -- such as the prince coming on to Moonstone while Moonstone is in drag and the prince thinks that Moonstone is a woman. Another time, I show the character eating because he had been in the dungeon for a while, and he was hungry, so it made sense for him to want to get some food. I also include scenes where he almost gets to eat, but something happens to prevent that.

In my previous book, I had a scene where a character was whipped for something he didn't do, and then left tied to the flogging pole for a couple of hours before he was cleared. :whip:

I didn't mention that he peed during that time because I figured people would say "Euwww." Maybe I should have mentioned it, or mentioned that he was holding it in because he had been humiliated enough, thank you very much, so he was stubbornly refusing to pee... Then again, I don't go over every moment of his wait, so maybe people will assume he did what he had to.

[Roger J Carlson]

Second: Roger and Sharon, See you at VP! I got my acceptance last week.woo hoo! See you there.

Realism (peeing and so forth):
A couple of years ago, I started reading a fantasy novel (can't remember the name right now) where every time someone died in a sword fight, the author mentioned the stench of their bowels releasing. I think the author was trying for realism. Death IS far messier in real life than in most literature. But after a while, it began to feel gratuitous. I never did finish the book.

[jlawrenceperry]

Hey there, Jim Jim Jimmy Jim Jim Jim Jim! A Q 4 U!

I was listening to Michael Stackpole's Podcast called The Secrets, and he is covering the "rules" of writing. This week he covered POV. He suggested that if you are writing in Third Person Focused, that you should have no more than three POV characters per 100k words. He says about 30k are required for good character development. I've read a lot of Crichton, Clancy, and Cussler, and they all use 3PF, so I've got a keen grasp on the technique. My novel has five POV characters, and I'm right at about 100k.

I love his writing and respect him as an author. Am I, as he says, "insane?"

His podcast is available at: http://www.stormwolf.com/thesecrets/podcasts

[Andrew Jameson]

Are you telling me that it's okay for a character not to eat or sleep if the process is boring? That's all I want to hear. YES/NO ANSWER!Yes.

But.

Nothing in life is so simple that a yes or no answer will work in all circumstances.

If your character is in a situation where he plausibly and naturally has time to pee offstage, during a scene break of a summary, like Bubba might in my example, then YES, I think you're OK not mentioning it. It is, as you say, boring to the reader.

If he doesn't have time, or if it presents a plot difficulty -- if your character is trapped in a closet for 48 hours (and would have to pee at some time), for example, or you have him doing things around the clock (with no sleep?) -- then it *becomes* interesting to the reader, and NO you can't get away with skipping this part.

IMO, of course.

[jules]

He suggested that if you are writing in Third Person Focused, that you should have no more than three POV characters per 100k words. He says about 30k are required for good character development.

Who said you had to develop every one of your POV characters to that degree? I'd like to see at least that much from each of the main characters (although the novel I'm currently revising breaks even this rule: I have about 50k from one of the main POV characters, and 20k from the other, but this should get expanded a little while I'm working on it), but not every character needs this much attention (the third POV in the novel I'm revising has only about 2,000 words, for instance, yet I feel it is important that the reader gets into his head, and understands the world he lives in a little more than they would with only the other two's perspective on the story).

Also, if you do it well, you can develop a character in less than that. Stephen King's The Stand is about 200k and develops a lot more than 6 characters to a brilliant level.

[James D. Macdonald]

This is an art, not a science. We do not measure our works with tape measure and stopwatch, saying "Ah, 10,000 words have passed, time to change POV!"

----

Many years ago I wrote a Spider-Man book. In this book, Spider-Man and Venom (Eddie Brock) drink a lot of coffee. (This book was written in one week -- art imitates life.)

At one point in a fight scene, Spider-Man said, "Wait up a minute -- I have to pee." To this, Venom replied, snarling, "Piss in your pants, Pete. It's what I do." (Since Venom wears a biogenic suit, this is actually a reasonable thing for him to do. It's also a reasonable thing for him to say since Eddie Brock knows Spider-Man's secret identity, and loathes him.)

Alas, the editor didn't let me keep it.

====

While bowels do generally unstop some time after death, smells and sounds and such are reasonable things to mention. But the time can be up to some hours later ... so it's not always necessary to mention.

[jlawrenceperry]

The constraints of the market probably require something just above 100k, and thankfully it's all I need to tell my story.

However, telling my story in compelling fashion necessitates the five POV characters I have. So stick with them I shall.

[maestrowork]

What then? It's a yes/no answer - can you miss out toilet breaks, sleeping, and eating?

They rarely add to the plot, enhance the character or support a theme. But without them your book becomes unrealistic...

Here's my definitive answer: yes, you can skip all the potty breaks, sleeping and eating without making your book look unrealistic.

As long as your story is engaging, your characters vivid and alive, and your themes insightful, no one is going to care if your characters eat, sleep or s*** during any of your scenes.

[Roger J Carlson]

Here's my definitive answer: yes, you can skip all the potty breaks, sleeping and eating without making your book look unrealistic.

As long as your story is engaging, your characters vivid and alive, and your themes insightful, no one is going to care if your characters eat, sleep or s*** during any of your scenes.Just because most people won't notice or care isn't an acceptable excuse. If you put your characters in a position where they cannot take care of bodily functions for an extended period of time, then you'd better address it somehow. However, if there is any reasonable way for this to be handled off-screen, then you can assume that it did and move on.

On a related topic, I just saw I, Robot on DVD. (Never got to the theater.) One thing that bothered me was how Will Smith's character shot about a million rounds of bullets without ever reloading. He was obviously not carrying any ammunition and most of the scenes were continuous so there was no way you could assume he reloaded.

Possible excuses: 1) guns in the future can hold a million rounds. Bull. Even if they could, it needs to be explained somewhere. 2) It's just science fiction -- no one will care. Yes they will. I do. I'm tired of excusing bad plot elements because it's "just science fiction."

[reph]

Are you telling me that it's okay for a character not to eat or sleep if the process is boring?
Yes, unless the absence of eating and sleeping would be conspicuous to the reader. Even if conflicts based on mental strivings drive your story, the characters must have bodies in order to seem real.

[Lenora Rose]

Apparantly it used to be a habit among some tribes of Australian Aborigines that, when they spotted a stranger travelling on their land, they would sneak along behind him and spy on him for about two days, to make sure he wasn't a demon. The way they knew he wasn't a demon was if he occasionally passed water and ate and the like.

Are you telling me that it's okay for a character not to eat or sleep if the process is boring?

Yes. But what you seem to be missing is that if the person is doing something else for 24 hours straight and hasn't done anything, that fact becomes interesting.

Realistic but otherwise boring details should be mentioned exactly often enough that the reader's immersion in the story is not broken by the absence, and no more often than that. This number can be zero times if that's what it takes and it can be assumed to be covered elsewise, but it can also be fairly often, if, no really, the lack of sleep or bathroom breaks would be telling.

What qualifies as a boring but realistic detail *also* varies. We've covered examples above of interesting or inconvenient bathroom breaks.

The mention of washing, for instance, can be as little as, "He showered, and rushed out to the site.", or a whole scene in itself, if you're talking about Psycho.

Meals are often a good way of revealing character, or theme, or places where exposition, revelation, and plot can be put in, but sometimes they're just a bit of fried chicken, and can be left out in the chapter break.

Driving from point A to point B is a yawner - unless you're writing a road trip, or there's a snowstorm, or...

[loquax]

This is a bit more like it. Now we're getting where I wanted - a debate on the balance between realism and artistic licence.

Personally I'm on Roger's side. The ammo thing always gets to me (a normal machine gun clip lasts about five seconds if you hold your finger on the trigger.) And the cops always hide behind car doors. An air-rifle pellet could puncture a car door. As well as a bible in your left breast pocket.

Do you reckon it all comes down to personal style, or should we try to reach a general consensus?

P.S. Will Smith probably reloaded between scenes. You just didn't see it, because they thought it would be boring.

[jlawrenceperry]

Re: POV characters

Stackpole also said sticking to three per 100k was a lesson he learned the hard way. So I was thinking, did some publisher deny an early work because of having too many POV characters, or did it just get too complicated for him to keep together? Perhaps I'll email and ask him.

[Christine N.]

Well, if you wanted yes or no, I guess you've gotten it, so I won't bore you with my answer.

Well, ok... here it is. If you need to. If the story requires it. If something interesting happens because of it. In neither of my books do any of the characters ever go to the bathroom on stage. Didn't see the need for it, it didn't advance the plot.

And isn't that what Uncle Jim always tells us? Every word should advance the plot. if it doesn't, get rid of it.

How's that?

[brinkett]

And isn't that what Uncle Jim always tells us? Every word should advance the plot.

Or reveal character (which UJ has always said too). I'm not sure I'd say every word. Every scene, maybe. I mean, how does "was" advance the plot? Just kidding...

[loquax]

I think that UJ's rule is a fantastic one to follow loosely, and is incredibly useful for cutting out filler. But I don't think it should be followed strictly. A lot of television comedy is off the cuff - random events that only serve for humour. Or intrigue. If I may again reference Mervyn Peake's 'Gormenghast', there seems to be very little plot. Throughout the book, there are strange little events and scentences that are not necessary. But they make me smile. Isn't that what's important?

[reph]

Apparantly it used to be a habit among some tribes of Australian Aborigines that, when they spotted a stranger travelling on their land, they would sneak along behind him and spy on him for about two days, to make sure he wasn't a demon. The way they knew he wasn't a demon was if he occasionally passed water and ate and the like.
Their motto was "Look Out for Number One."

[Roger J Carlson]

Their motto was "Look Out for Number One."OH! That's TERRIBLE! :Clap:

[HConn]

:flag:

:ROFL:

[alanna]

Does any one else get caught up in editing before the rough draft is done, or is it just me? You know, I'm thinking of disconnecting my printer and stashing it in the attic so that I stop editing, and just WRITE. ARGH!!! Okay, vent over. :)

[scribbler1382]

Does any one else get caught up in editing before the rough draft is done, or is it just me? You know, I'm thinking of disconnecting my printer and stashing it in the attic so that I stop editing, and just WRITE. ARGH!!! Okay, vent over. :)

Sympathies, Alanna. That's a very common problem among writers -- and one of the reasons my "partials" box is about ten times heavier than my "completed" box. One of my biggest problems with this is that I MUST print out what I've done that day and go read it away from the computer or it isn't real. Of course, having a page in front of you in traditional manuscript format just begs for some markups. So I've been trying to only print pages out using single spacing. This means there's just no room for those comments you're dieing to put in (or, very little room, anyways...it's amazing how small you can write when you have to). So far it's mostly working.

Of course, this does nothing to keep you from editing endlessly online when you should be writing. With that I'm just taking a willpower approach. Whenever I get the urge to go back, I chastise myself and focus on what's ahead. Again, so far that's working, but only time will tell.

Good luck!

[PattiTheWicked]

I just finished writing another chapter, and I realised that my characters hadn't eaten or gone to the toilet in a whole day.

Wait a minute... characters get to pee?

:::runs off to edit everything:::

[ted_curtis]

I've been lurking on this thread for a bunch of months (thanks Uncle Jim for all the great advice and lessons).

My take on the bathroom thing is that art isn't reality. We just need to write enough real stuff to make it recognizable. For some reason, my betas notice when my characters don't eat, drink, or sleep, but they never notice the lack of bathroom breaks, brushing the teeth, or flossing. So I leaves those out, unless they're important.

A great book where going pee isn't just important to the plot, but also a major theme is Richard Russo's "Straight Man." But I'm not that good a writer.

Ted

[Nangleator]

Does any one else get caught up in editing before the rough draft is done, or is it just me?
I finished my first novel in about a year, but it would have been months quicker if I hadn't started every session by going back a few pages and reading.

And you can't read at the computer without making changes. More times than I can count, I started at the beginning and just edited what was already there.

I hadn't joined any writer's groups, I didn't search the internet, and I didn't talk to anyone about writing. (It started as a typing excercise to prevent the loss of that painfully-earned skill.) I didn't know what was right and what was wrong, either in techniques for writing or the writing skills discussed in this thread.

Now that I know what a mistake it is to edit instead of finish the first draft... I still do it. (Niven's Law #17: No technique works if it isn't used.)

Meh. Writing takes more discipline than I maybe have.

[reph]

OH! That's TERRIBLE!
Thank you!


By the way, sometimes when I'm not posting here, I'm peeing.

I just didn't want you all to think I never do.

[James D. Macdonald]

Everyone, if the board is suddenly unreadable, switch to "linear mode" in "Display modes" (link at the right end of the blue bar, top of the page).

Threaded mode just plain doesn't work.

[AdamMac]

This is a bit more like it. Now we're getting where I wanted - a debate on the balance between realism and artistic licence.

Personally I'm on Roger's side. The ammo thing always gets to me (a normal machine gun clip lasts about five seconds if you hold your finger on the trigger.) And the cops always hide behind car doors. An air-rifle pellet could puncture a car door. As well as a bible in your left breast pocket.


Sorry if I'm straying but I couldn't let this slip. I was on a course a couple of years ago for reporters who work in wars or other hostile environments. The instructors, former Royal Marine Commandos, took us out to the range to demonstrate where a reporter can actually take cover when he's shot at.
They had built walls of concrete, brick, sandbags and other materials and shot at them to show what would happen to somebody hiding behind them. They also set up doors from five different types of cars and shot at them with an AK47 from about 20 meters. The bullet went through most but the door of a Toyota Corolla stopped it. The instructors weren't overly surprised. I also know a BBC cameraman who was shot in the hip in Kosovo. The bullet was stopped by his cell phone and a wad of currency in his hip pouch. Heck of a bruise though. I don't know the range on that one. The weapon was most likely an AK47.

That said, I probably wouldn't include it in a novel because some, or maybe most, readers would doubt it, as shown here.

Thanks. Adam

[James D. Macdonald]

Bullets are funny things. So are human bodies. They both surprise you.

Also -- an awful lot of AK ammo is old, or was manufactured with a bit less quality control than you might like. Some of it is likely underpowered.

[AdamMac]

Yes. A lot of coincidences probably lead up to the car door stopping the bullet. Weak ammo hitting just the right spot, etc. And I wouldn't want to read it in a novel unless the author had good reason to include a passage that could strain credibility. Kind of like solving your character's financial woes by having him win the lottery. It could fit, but with care and good reason. The story may become one about problems caused by his windfall.

So, as for the debate between realism and artistic license, it seems an author may sometimes have to ignore what is strictly realistic so that the text sounds realistic. Giving the character the urge to pee in the middle of a scene, while completely realistic, is probably either besides the point or a setup for further action.

By the way, thank you Uncle Jim for this wonderful thread. I've learned more from it than from any book I've read.

Adam

[Ken Schneider]

Re: query letters.

I know what they are, but are there any examples on the net of how to write a compelling query?

[Roger J Carlson]

Re: query letters.

I know what they are, but are there any examples on the net of how to write a compelling query?There are approximately as many opinions about what makes a compelling query letter as there are agents and publishers. Here's one I've recently turned to.
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9780

[James D. Macdonald]

A compelling query?

Keep it to one page. Two at most.

Beyond that ... there's not much I can say other than spell the agent's name right, and watch your grammar and spelling.

[jules]

Re: query letters.

I know what they are, but are there any examples on the net of how to write a compelling query?

I had an "a-ha" moment while reading this one (http://fmwriters.com/Visionback/Issue9/GBI.htm) -- I realised that the query letter is simply a business-to-business direct marketing letter, so should be treated like one. Hence, the three most important things: put right up front what you're selling, give the reasons why it would benefit the recipient to buy it, and keep it short.

But then I've worked in B2B marketing before, so I'm familiar with those things.

[Nangleator]

I had an "a-ha" moment while reading this one (http://fmwriters.com/Visionback/Issue9/GBI.htm)
Hmm. The author implies that synopses should be double spaced, but Jim has explained that no one is going to edit your synopsis, so don't do it that way.

Other than that, good link.

[Ken Schneider]

A compelling query?

Keep it to one page. Two at most.

Beyond that ... there's not much I can say other than spell the agent's name right, and watch your grammar and spelling.

Jim, Compelling in the sense that the query gets me to at least having the first three chapters read.

Thanks for the info.

[Dark Phoenix]

Alright, I have a question concerning Chapters in you submit paper to publishers:

What is the right format to place it?

Like this?
Chapter 1: Insert Chapter Name - Insert Story

Or?
Chapter 1: Insert Chapter Name
Insert Story

[Christine N.]

I ususally use the second example. Also, I start my chapters halfway down the page. I think they like it that way so they can write notes all over the first page of each chapter.

[Dark Phoenix]

Okay, thank you very much. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

[James D. Macdonald]

Drop a third or half-way down the page. Chapter number or title centered, drop another couple of lines, then start the first paragraph.

Meanwhile: a nice review of an older book: http://www.livejournal.com/users/blackhanddpants/4107.html

[paritoshuttam]

Never felt so stupid. I think I swapped the covering letters in my query to two agents. Found out about it when I got a sorry no luck, reply from Agent #1: "NB: Your letter was addressed to Agent #2, instead of Agent #1."

:cry:

Has anybody here ever done anything like that?

- Paritosh

[Christine N.]

LOL. I think everybody's done something like that. I think I forgot to remove the "enclosed please find the first three chapters as requested in your guidelines." I was only sending the query and a synop. Oops.

[Roger J Carlson]

Has anybody here ever done anything like that?

- ParitoshNot that I know of, but I've queried so many agents, that it's virtually certain I've made some mistake like that. I wonder how many form rejections are a result of something like this?

Still, all is not necessarily lost. Give it some time and then requery. Don't mention the earlier faux pas. I imagine most agents receive so many queries that they can't afford to remember all the ones they've rejected -- regardless of the reason. Even if they do and reject you again because of it, you haven't lost anything.

[MzPrint]

So, why does the Writer's Market (page 10) recommend Times New Roman? And when I went to type this message the default font was Verdana. Btw, Writer's Market/Writer's Digest are deteriorating, seems like they are more interested in selling books on writing than actually printing helpful articles. We pay for a subscription to get a whole magazine full of ads.

[Andrew Jameson]

Out of curiousity (not subscribing to Writer's Market myself), what do they recommend Times New Roman for? Manuscripts? Cover letters? Synopses? Queries? Self-editing?

[scribbler1382]

So, why does the Writer's Market (page 10) recommend Times New Roman? And when I went to type this message the default font was Verdana. Btw, Writer's Market/Writer's Digest are deteriorating, seems like they are more interested in selling books on writing than actually printing helpful articles. We pay for a subscription to get a whole magazine full of ads.
Um, I'm not sure what the default font of a forum has to do with manuscript format, but as far as the other, I think it's been said before that any information on format offered by guides are just that -- guides. Always bow to whatever the market/agent you're targetting requests. If Joe Agent asks for papyrus in small caps, do it.

[TemlynWriting]

So, why does the Writer's Market (page 10) recommend Times New Roman? And when I went to type this message the default font was Verdana. Btw, Writer's Market/Writer's Digest are deteriorating, seems like they are more interested in selling books on writing than actually printing helpful articles. We pay for a subscription to get a whole magazine full of ads.

Like the person above, I'm not sure what the default (or any) font on this message board has to do with what font is proper to use when writing a novel.

Also, it would be helpful if you quote whatever post it is that you're referring to, as this is somewhat vague, and one must do quite a bit of searching through the posts to find what "misinformation" you're referring to.

The above comment from scribbler was also correct in stating that these places such as Writer's Market are just guides; use whatever font the market or agent prefers. If you're not sure, then ask, but do not assume.

[James D. Macdonald]

Has anybody here ever done anything like that?



Happens all the darned time. Editor at Publisher A gets a cover letter addressed to Editor at Publisher B. Or the body of the cover letter talks about how the author always wanted to be published by Publisher C when the editor reading the letter is working for Publisher D.

Always check and doublecheck the names before you send something out.

[James D. Macdonald]

Times New Roman may be right but Courier 10 is never wrong. (Unless the guidelines say so.)

[James D. Macdonald]

What Publishing Is: http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006479.html#006479

[alaskamatt17]

Never felt so stupid. I think I swapped the covering letters in my query to two agents. Found out about it when I got a sorry no luck, reply from Agent #1: "NB: Your letter was addressed to Agent #2, instead of Agent #1."

:cry:

Has anybody here ever done anything like that?

- Paritosh

I once included the phrase "for your convenience, a SASE is enclosed" in an e-mail query.

[aadams73]

I once included the phrase "for your convenience, a SASE is enclosed" in an e-mail query.

I came |-| this close to doing that a couple of weeks ago.

[arodriguez]

Dear uncle Jim,

thank you for taking the time to create this thread; it is most exciting!

i was wondering about the synopsis. I have scanned through this thread and i can seem to find anything. just wanted to know one thing. i have a novel about 400 pages long. Will Tor want a one page synopsis with the first three chapters, or something more along the lines of 5-10? if you have answered this, please someone just link the page.

thank you,
arod

[James D. Macdonald]

If you can do it in one page, do it in one page. If it takes five to ten pages to write your synopsis, take them.

You aren't providing a chapter-by-chapter breakdown, just a description of your story, including the climax.

[Nangleator]

But the hard part of the synopsis is to make it an enjoyable read.

[James D. Macdonald]

Making the synopsis fun to read should be on your list, yes. It should read like a story, not a school assignment.

Meanwhile ----

I posted this down in the Bewares board, but not everyone reads there, so I'll put this here:

Ms. Schwartz [Mary Louise Schwartz of the Belfrey Literary Agency] was at Writers' Weekend, as was I. I attended one of her panels and spoke with her briefly afterward.

On the e-mail issue -- apparently when the word got out that she was accepting email subs, the response from writers crashed her ISP's server. So ... if you've been waiting for a while, you might re-submit.

Second, she told a funny story. She got a manuscript by email. She read it. She loved it. She called an editor she knew and described it. He said, "Send it right over!" Alas, the writer had not included his/her name or contact information on the manuscript, and it had gotten separated from the cover letter (perhaps lost in the server crash?)

So there she sits, with what she thinks is a sure sale on her hands, unable to do anything with it.

==========

If that's your manuscript that you forgot to put your name on ... well.

[aadams73]

Second, she told a funny story. She got a manuscript by email. She read it. She loved it. She called an editor she knew and described it. He said, "Send it right over!" Alas, the writer had not included his/her name or contact information on the manuscript, and it had gotten separated from the cover letter (perhaps lost in the server crash?)

So there she sits, with what she thinks is a sure sale on her hands, unable to do anything with it.


That's the kind of story that makes a writer want to weep!

[James D. Macdonald]

That's the kind of story that makes a writer want to weep!

That's the kind of story that makes editors and agents say "Remember that 'running head' thing we keep talking about? Ever wonder why?"

Guys, go to your manuscripts right now and put your name, address, email, and phone number on the first page. Put your name in the running head. It's okay -- I'll wait 'til you get back.

---------------

And if you are that author, or know that author ... Ms. Schwartz wants to hear from you with your name and address.

[aadams73]

Guys, go to your manuscripts right now and put your name, address, email, and phone number on the first page. Put your name in the running head. It's okay -- I'll wait 'til you get back.


Already done. Ha.

[alanna]

That's the kind of story that makes a writer want to weep!

:cry: :Smack: :cry:

[aruna]

Second, she told a funny story. She got a manuscript by email. She read it. She loved it. She called an editor she knew and described it. He said, "Send it right over!" Alas, the writer had not included his/her name or contact information on the manuscript, and it had gotten separated from the cover letter (perhaps lost in the server crash?)

So there she sits, with what she thinks is a sure sale on her hands, unable to do anything with it.

==========

If that's your manuscript that you forgot to put your name on ... well.

Oh my god! that's NOT funny! Can't she reply to the mail, or did she delete it?

[James D. Macdonald]

Oh my god! that's NOT funny! Can't she reply to the mail, or did she delete it?

The attachment was apparently saved separately from the mail (some email programs do this) and the cover letter (if there was one) got separated/lost. It happens with streetmail too. She seems to have lost a lot of mail to server issues (and doesn't strike me as being a computer power-user).

I suggested that she Google on the title of the book and her own name, to see if the author mentioned sending it, and Google on unique phrases from the first chapter to see if the author workshopped it somewhere, but those are both longshots.

[aruna]

OK.

Talking about slip-ups, this morning I had a mail in my inbox from the editor of an anthology I had applied to - rather, I had asked if it was too late for inclusion. He had written a note forwarding my mail to someone else, telling her about me, commenting that it was too late but if she could use me for their website... seems he pressed the reply button instead of forward; no evidence of it being a CC.
I had a chuckle and replied to the sender, explaining the slip up. Nothing serious, but I expect he'll have a red face!

[James D. Macdonald]

"Reply all" has done more damage than you might imagine.

-------------------

"Funny" doesn't always mean "humorous." It can also mean odd, queer, or unsettling.

Q. Why didn't the cannibal eat the clown?

A. He tasted funny.

[James D. Macdonald]

Researching the historical novel (http://www.shellythacker.com/researching.htm)

[Kate Nepveu]

As to covers:

I pointedly went out and bought the new rerelease of a book I liked from an author I love specifically because the original release had the worst pastel unicorn shot you've ever seen. Oh hey, is that Pamela Dean's Secret Country trilogy? I did the same thing.

(old cover of book 1 (http://gw.dd-b.net/pddb/secret.jpg); new cover of book 1 (http://gw.dd-b.net/pddb/TheSecretCountry-2003-flat-400.jpg).)

Firebird is doing good work getting stuff like that back in print.

[arodriguez]

hey thanks for the info!


knowing that really takes the pressure off. I was also wondering something else. Say for instance that my concept for the story spans longer than just the novel. Should i just write the synopsis for the one book, or should i send an overview of all the books, even though only one is written? Also, if the latter is true, then how do you transition the ending of one book to the next in the synopsis? Also, im assuming of course that the editor would not care if the synopsis is 12-15 pages if needed..?

appreciate all the help, thanks!

[James D. Macdonald]

Sell just the one book. That book needs to have a beginning, a middle, and an end.

If that first book doesn't sell it won't have any sequels.

[James D. Macdonald]

Story can be brief (http://www.seashanty.org/telltale/).

[arodriguez]

aye aye captain!

[James D. Macdonald]

For any novel you can assume that the world existed before the action of the book started, and the world continued after the climax of the book ended.

[arodriguez]

My problem is there is so much action before and after that i just wrote about the character with the most interesting POV. problem is, hes not the only main character, and not the only charcater i wanted to stay in as i told the story. I think i made it interesting because i wrapped up everyone's life in his, and they view him a little differently than he views himself.the point was, the events in his life that influence him are completely unknown to him, although he is wrapped in it living through the results. what is currently happing is the culmination of these events and he is the at the epicenter, just kind of bearing it, barely. (haha) so in the synopsis i had to kind of introduce some of the action in the back story in order to make the plot not confusing. I know the book is the ride, but the synopsis sells it..oh well. i hope i am doing the proper thing!

[arodriguez]

btw...in 10 pt courier its almost 800 pages.yikes! i nailed the action and plot in 6 pages with a line at the last implying the charcters next step would be another story.

[James D. Macdonald]

Presumably if you'd been able to tell the story in less than 800 pages you would have done so.

That being said, what you've told me about your synopsis may point to a problem area or two in the overall novel.

[arodriguez]

curious. what kind of problems?


also, i rechecked the margins...they were 1.25 on left and right..put it 1 inch liek you said...down to 496 pages....

[James D. Macdonald]

...i had to kind of introduce some of the action in the back story in order to make the plot not confusing.

If you need the backstory to have the plot make sense there's a chance you're starting the story at the wrong point.

I don't know -- I haven't read your book.

[arodriguez]

hmm, i will have to consider this...thanks for the input!

[loquax]

If you need the backstory to have the plot make sense there's a chance you're starting the story at the wrong point
Many stories are dependent on their untold backtories - but reveal them only later to answer questions that have slowly crept up over the course of events. For an easy example, the Harry Potter series not only follows Harry, but also the past lives of his teachers and his parents as he goes along. The more we learn about the backstory, the more we learn about Harry.

I think the skill is keeping the reader informed, and happy, yet ignorant at the same time. Ignorant of things they don't care about (yet). This makes the twists all the more delicious. If the reader is confused from the first page, then they will tend to throw the book aside. You have to hook them before you can start confusing them.

[James D. Macdonald]

For an easy example, the Harry Potter series not only follows Harry, but also the past lives of his teachers and his parents as he goes along. The more we learn about the backstory, the more we learn about Harry.

I would tend to disagree. We do learn about past events, but they aren't driving the story. Also: The series begins with Harry, still an infant, being delivered to the Dursleys moments after Voldemort's final attack on his parents.

The entire backstory can be compressed into one line: The wizarding community has been immersed in a civil war.

That war might have continued indefinitely. The event that changes everything is the one that starts the first book: Harry survives.

[zornhau]

Not sure I understand. With HP, don't some specific past events, or revelations thereof, affect the action? The protective nature of Harry's scar. The revelations about his father at school. The innocence of his guardian whatisname?

[Christine N.]

What I find comforting is that JK Rowling feels exactly the same as I do (and probably a lot of other writers out there) - by the middle of the first draft I love it, three quarter through I hate it, and by the time it's done I love it again.

I wish I could find the exact quote...but I figured if she feels that way, maybe I'm doing something right. :)

[maestrowork]

Not sure I understand. With HP, don't some specific past events, or revelations thereof, affect the action? The protective nature of Harry's scar. The revelations about his father at school. The innocence of his guardian whatisname?

Yes, but those I think are incidental, or integral part of the "current" story happening, and can be dealt with with a line of dialogue or a short description. The thing is, we don't have to delve into a huge chapter/prologue/whatever of the fight between Harry's parents and Voldemort to understand that info. I believe it was handled very briefly by some dialogue between McGonagall and Dumbledore (only in the movie version did they use "flashback" to show the conception of Harry's scar, etc. -- Rowling didn't do that in the books).

[maestrowork]

What I find comforting is that JK Rowling feels exactly the same as I do (and probably a lot of other writers out there) - by the middle of the first draft I love it, three quarter through I hate it, and by the time it's done I love it again.

I wish I could find the exact quote...but I figured if she feels that way, maybe I'm doing something right. :)

Oh yeah, the mid-book curse...

[James D. Macdonald]

Betcha some of the backstory revelations in Harry Potter came about like this:

JKR: [type type type]

JKR: Oh <bleep>! Harry's dead for sure this time. No way can he survive that.

JKR: [brood brood brood]

JKR: Ah ha! I know! His scar will protect him!

JKR: [type type type]

[Christine N.]

LOL. Hey, that's how some of the stuff in MY books come about. Things happen I had no idea were coming. That's why writing is fun :)

[James D. Macdonald]

This is a lovely holiday weekend (Independence Day in the United States, Canada Day in Guess Where.)

But, you're all writers! That means "No Time Off For You, Bucky!"

So: Next assignments:

First: Rent Secret Garden on DVD. (It's about a writer.) Watch it. Very good. Now watch the short feature with the director's comments on why he made the decisions he did. (Pay particular attention to his remarks about the strength of the characters.) Now watch the deleted scenes, with the director's comments turned on. Why were they deleted? Did he make the right decisions?


Next assignment:

Rent Princess Diaries II and Resident Evil II. Watch them back-to-back. Popcorn is allowed. Taking a break between them isn't. Your assignment is to combine them into a single story: Anne Hathaway wakes up in the palace in Gevalia to discover that all her happy subjects have been turned into flesh-eating zombies. She must rescue Julie Andrews and shoot her way out before the United States nukes the country. You're aiming for thirty to forty manuscript pages with a beginning, a middle, and an end. (Alternatively: Milla Jovovich wakes up in a hospital to discover that she has to choose which of two young men to marry in just thirty days. Or some other mix-n-match combo.) You must file off the serial numbers by removing all trademarked and copyrighted elements from the finished piece.

Extra points to anyone who files off those serial numbers so well that no one reading the story would suspect it came from this assignment. Even more points to anyone who's gutsy enough to submit the result to a paying market.

[katiemac]

Anne Hathaway wakes up in the palace in Gevalia to discover that all her happy subjects have been turned into flesh-eating zombies. She must rescue Julie Andrews and shoot her way out before the United States nukes the country.

Jim, this is brilliant. I haven't seen either movie, but I couldn't stop laughing for at least a minute after reading this prompt.

[azbikergirl]

I have been dutifully playing the chess games in Logical Chess: Move by Move, trying for one game per day. Now that my chess skills are brushed up on (and I'll continue to play through the entire book), where do I go from here? Is this an exercise to develop strategizing skills that writers use in plotting, or is there an ah-ha moment in my future?

[James D. Macdonald]

1) It's improving your strategizing skills

2) There's an ah-ha! moment in your future

3) At the very least your chess game should have improved.

What the point is: Just as putting a knight on King's Bishop Three is the strongest position for that piece, and the chess master instinctively knows to develop the piece there -- in the same way the writer knows that giving his detective just forty-eight hours to crack the case puts that character in an interesting position.

Put interesting characters in interesting positions and plot will develop. Later, surprising combinations will arise -- not necessarily because you plotted them out in advance, but because they flow naturally from the groundwork you've already done. The Sorting Hat couldn't have provided a sword in the Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets if the Sorting Hat hadn't been put into play and established as magical in Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone.

As you gain practice as a writer you'll learn how to put interesting characters into interesting places -- even if you don't know how things will work out later.

[Mistook]

1) It's improving your strategizing skills

2) There's an ah-ha! moment in your future

3) At the very least your chess game should have improved.

What the point is: Just as putting a knight on King's Bishop Three is the strongest position for that piece, and the chess master instinctively knows to develop the piece there -- in the same way the writer knows that giving his detective just forty-eight hours to crack the case puts that character in an interesting position.

Put interesting characters in interesting positions and plot will develop. Later, surprising combinations will arise -- not necessarily because you plotted them out in advance, but because they flow naturally from the groundwork you've already done. The Sorting Hat couldn't have provided a sword in the Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets if the Sorting Hat hadn't been put into play and established as magical in Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone.

As you gain practice as a writer you'll learn how to put interesting characters into interesting places -- even if you don't know how things will work out later.


I went up against myself in this way. I had my detective get hold of a laptop full of critical information about the evil conspirators.

With my villain's mind, I devised a fool proof self-destruct mechanism that would destroy all the data on the laptop if any attempt were made to boot the computer, cut a wire, remove a battery, etc.

It took me nearly a month to figure out the Hero's work-around to get the data. One idea after another proved to be worthless, after doing the technical research, but I refused to give myself an out. I wanted that "brilliant solution" that only a braniac like my detective could think up.

Finally I found it. The hero went on to print the secret documents, but I has the satisfaction that she didn't just catch a lucky break.

And of course, just to keep things real, the villain burned down her apartment in retaliation.

[BenMears]

This is a lovely holiday weekend (Independence Day in the United States, Canada Day in Guess Where.)

But, you're all writers! That means "No Time Off For You, Bucky!"

So: Next assignments:



These sound like very fun and worthwhile assignments (better than that last jaw-breaker of a poem I'm still trying to memorize), and boy wouldn't I like an
:popcorn:
excuse to get away from that novel I'm in the middle of, but... No.
:Headbang:
Must write novel. Must write novel.

[Christine N.]

And that's the heart of it... what have I already established in this book (or books)that I can use in this situation.

Hmm... I have a magical hat, a phoenix (who's feather happens to be in the hero's wand, boy I was clever there, wasn't I) and I've introduced the four founders in a bit more detail with this book. Hmmmm...

I found myself, after writing the end of the book, going back and fixing things in the beginning of the book so that everything would make sense.

It's pretty much a juggling act, isn't it.

[azbikergirl]

OK, I get it. Like setting up to control the center of the chessboard, and developing the pieces early in the game by moving them off the back rank.

In my now-finished fantasy novel, my swordswoman character was escorting a merchant from one city to another, and she asked what goods the merchant sold. Hmmm... so I gave him wooden gargoyles that people can put on chests in order to lock them. Only the one who places the gargoyle can open the chest (or door, etc). I didn't know at the time how I'd use them later, but I had my character buy one. It so happened it came in handy much later in the story.

[Christine N.]

Uncle Jim, I have a question. (oo oo, pick me pick me!)

Reading "Self Editing for Fiction writers" AND this thread, I've learned how to root out all the - ing clauses in my writing, for the most part. I notice my writing is stronger, and more sophisticated.

NOW... I'm reading a MG book by a well known author (he's Scottish, if that's relevent) and the book is RIDDLED with these things. They're starting to get on my nerves. And he's using -ly adverbs like there's nothing better.

I guess my question is - why don't his editors get rid of them? I know my first book has some in there, when I wrote it I didn't know any better. I guess I want to know why, if getting rid of them is better, publishers don't bother about them?

[Trapped in amber]

Reading "Self Editing for Fiction writers" AND this thread, I've learned how to root out all the - ing clauses in my writing, for the most part. I notice my writing is stronger, and more sophisticated.



Dang it, I missed the -ing and -ly thing. How do these newly discovered evils weaken my prose? (Things tend to stick in my Teflon mind better when I understand the 'why').
Is it just that 'hoped' is better than 'was hoping'? Do you end up using the sinister verb 'to be' more with them?
:Wha:

[brinkett]

NOW... I'm reading a MG book by a well known author (he's Scottish, if that's relevent) and the book is RIDDLED with these things. They're starting to get on my nerves. And he's using -ly adverbs like there's nothing better.

You're only noticing them because that particular "rule" is fresh in your mind. The same thing's happened to me. If you turn off the critic, you'll forget about them. Assuming the writing is competent, most readers won't notice the mechanics unless they're bored, in which case there's a larger problem than using words ending in -ly.

[Christine N.]

The story is pretty good, although the beginning didn't do it for me, I plodded through and read on. Those clauses just stick out (to me) like a sore thumb. I'm correcting them in my head as I read. I don't mind them if they're occasional, it doesn't make a difference, but this thing has them every other sentence.

Trapped - yes "he hoped" is better than "was hoping". It's much stronger and more sophisicated. Same thing with the "As she..." phrases. Ditch 'em.

For example: "As she ran across the room, she saw him fall." is much better as "She ran across the room and saw him fall" (or even "as he fell", the "as" is in the middle of the sentence, where it's not so noticeable.

The -ing clause is usually easy to fix. ie: "She watched him fall out the window, hoping that he wouldn't be hurt." reads much better as "She watched him fall out the window and hoped he wouldn't be hurt."


See?

[Trapped in amber]

Thank you.:Sun:
I have lists of things like this when I'm editing. I have my own pet words that I overuse, and a list of phrases and types of words that weaken my writing. I use find and replace to zap them if they can't justify their existance.

[James D. Macdonald]

The real rule is: The prose must be workmanlike or better.

Strong story will get you through weak prose better than strong prose will get you through weak story.

========

To the question of why the editor didn't remove the -ly and -ing words... perhaps the editor would say, "You should have seen it before." If your story grabs the reader and makes him read all the pages one after another your prose can be the dullest stuff imaginable.

Me, I know that I'm not a genius so I make the parts that I can make strong stronger still, to make up for deficiencies elsewhere.