Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[bsolah]

Yeah, it's just one person speaking usually in the context of drama like a script or screenplay.

[2Wheels]

Coming into this a bit late in the game, but here's my silly shot at it:

“Isabelle!”
Izzy sighed and rolled over. She hated it when people called her by her proper name. “What?” she bellowed back.
“Did you turn the TV off?”
“No”
“Well why not?”
“Why should I?”
Outside, thunder rolled, and the rain beat against the window like the scraping nails of a banshee.
“Because there’s a storm, OK?”
“Oh, OK.” Izzy rolled off the once-fine, blue and green chintz sofa, the springiness of the plush cushions nothing more than a memory to them now. She snapped shut the dog-eared bodice-ripper novel she had just read for the thousandth time – pages 238 to 242 to be exact, in which Tristan, the tricorn-hatted nemesis of cargo ships crossing the Caribbean had lustfully and masterfully had his way with the vicar’s daughter he’d abducted two days hence. He’d left her shamed – and sated – in a corner of his cabin below decks.
Izzy turned the TV off, and caught a glimpse of her reflection in the screen. Those days at the gym were paying off, she thought. She was, in fact, becoming the painted-fingernailed, trim, hourglass- figured, blue-eyed, bombshell she’d always wanted to be. “Bring it on, Tristan,” she smirked. She was going to get even with that bunch of smug, cliquey high school females who had teased her at every opportunity, or die in the attempt. Vengeance would be sweet. She could picture it now. Blood everywhere. Their screams fading into the blackness behind her. A chainsaw or a circular saw?

At the window she could see the edge of the storm clouds, the orangey, watery, sun breaking out beneath their mysterious, brooding edge and beginning to beam brightly across the wet, dull-toned landscape at her. She squinted pensively against the light. This was a moment to savour, something to look back on, to tell her grandchildren about.

“Take me to your leader.”
Izzy jumped and spun round. There stood a two-headed, green, thing, dripping slime onto the paisley rug.
“Pardon?” she asked, rather pointlessly.
The green thing raised a large metallic object, which, too late, Izzy suspected was a weapon, and pointed it at her.

The alarm jangled.
Izzy woke in a sweat and looked quickly and nervously around her room. There was nothing there. It had all been a dream.

I didn't get too many of them in there, but the one's I did, I hope were quality ones.... :)

[James D. Macdonald]

Uncle Jim,

What's a monologue? I take it to mean that only one person is speaking. Without anybody commenting or continuing with the conversation. Am I on the right track?


That's what it is. "Mono-" means "one." Just one guy talking. A soliloquy.

On the Tonight Show, Johnny Carson's opening routine was a monologue.

See also, the discussion of "monologing" in the movie The Incredibles.

[pictopedia]

A long time ago, when I as a man and occasionally on a plane, I overheard two young men referring to their vacation as "island hopping." I hope I am not doing too much of the same here with subjects, but I just came across this in Struck's "The Elements of Style", and need help:


An unskilful writer will sometimes construct a whole paragraph of sentences of this kind, using as connectives and, but, and less frequently, who, which, when, where, and while, these last in non-restrictive senses (see under Rule 3).:

The third concert of the subscription series was given last evening, and a large audience was in attendance. Mr. Edward Appleton was the soloist, and the Boston Symphony Orchestra furnished the instrumental music. The former showed himself to be an artist of the first rank, while the latter proved itself fully deserving of its high reputation. The interest aroused by the series has been very gratifying to the Committee, and it is planned to give a similar series annually hereafter. The fourth concert will be given on Tuesday, May 10, when an equally attractive programme will be presented.

Apart from its triteness and emptiness, the paragraph above is bad because of the structure of its sentences, with their mechanical symmetry and sing-song. Contrast with them the sentences in the paragraphs quoted under Rule 10, or in any piece of good English prose, as the preface (Before the Curtain) to Vanity Fair. If the writer finds that he has written a series of sentences of the type described, he should recast enough of them to remove the monotony, replacing them by simple sentences, by sentences of two clauses joined by a semicolon, by periodic sentences of two clauses, by sentences, loose or periodic, of three clauses—whichever best represent the real relations of the thought.



I was hoping to find a rewrite of that part, similar to this esample, earlier in the book (first the "bad", then the "good" version):

Macbeth was very ambitious. This led him to wish to become king of Scotland. The witches told him that this wish of his would come true. The king of Scotland at this time was Duncan. Encouraged by his wife, Macbeth murdered Duncan. He was thus enabled to succeed Duncan as king. (55 words.)

Encouraged by his wife, Macbeth achieved his ambition and realized the prediction of the witches by murdering Duncan and becoming king of Scotland in his place. (26 words.)

Has anyone seen a rewrite of the "the third concert" paragraph or could give me an impression on what a good version of that writing would look like?

[smsarber]

I don't know how much better this is, but here goes:

"The subscription series' third installment was given before a large audience last night. The Boston Symphony Orchestra gave an acclaimed performance, accompanied by first-rate soloist Edward Appleton. The Committee was gratified by an increased interest in the series and will give it an annual run hereafter. There will be a fourth concert on Tuesday, May 10, with another exceptional program planned."


It reads better to me, but hey, what do I know! ha-ha

[pictopedia]

wow, that sounds so much better. Thanks smsarber! I see what you are doing.
For some reason I find this task difficult.

[Shweta]

Have you tried reading the bad paragraph out loud, pict? It's got this Blah and blah. Blah while blah. Blah but blah. rhythm going on. Much clearer out loud, I think.

And reading out loud often gives me a sense of how to fix that sort of thing, not just how it's bad. I try saying different versions out loud and listen to how they sound.

[euclid]

Uncle Jim: I just got my WIP1 back from a professional editor. He is happy about the writing, the characters, the humour, but he says the plot needs a lot of work. He suggests I read *The Writer's Journey* by Chistopher Vogler (Pan). I've ordered the book from Amazon. Do you have any other suggestions on how I can educate myself on plots, the inclusion of fear/tension and pacing, I suppose? I tried reading through this writing course, but after 200 posts, I thought "There must be an easier way."

[MadScientistMatt]

Has anyone seen a rewrite of the "the third concert" paragraph or could give me an impression on what a good version of that writing would look like?

Let me take a shot at it!

The third concert of the subscription series was given last evening, and a large audience was in attendance. Mr. Edward Appleton was the soloist, and the Boston Symphony Orchestra furnished the instrumental music. The former showed himself to be an artist of the first rank, while the latter proved itself fully deserving of its high reputation. The interest aroused by the series has been very gratifying to the Committee, and it is planned to give a similar series annually hereafter. The fourth concert will be given on Tuesday, May 10, when an equally attractive programme will be presented.

Mr. Edward Appleton and the Boston Symphony Orchestra gave the third concert of the subscription series last evening. Mr. Appleton's operatic voice and the orchestra's musical talent made for one of the best performances of Wagner's Gotterdammerung this city has ever seen. This virtuoso performance will be a tough act to follow, but the Committee promises they can deliver a fourth concert of equal quality on Tuesday, May 10th.

I've whittled it down to one connective, cut out all the passive voice, and added more details while dropping the word count. I'm sure some of the more accomplished writers here could improve it further.

[smsarber]

Let me take a shot at it!



Mr. Edward Appleton and the Boston Symphony Orchestra gave the third concert of the subscription series last evening. Mr. Appleton's operatic voice and the orchestra's musical talent made for one of the best performances of Wagner's Gotterdammerung this city has ever seen. This virtuoso performance will be a tough act to follow, but the Committee promises they can deliver a fourth concert of equal quality on Tuesday, May 10th.

I've whittled it down to one connective, cut out all the passive voice, and added more details while dropping the word count. I'm sure some of the more accomplished writers here could improve it further.


Nice! I, of course, like my version better. Kidding!! Interesting to include Gotterdammerung. Ever heard Monster Magnet's "Baby Gotterdammerung"? Anyway, Kudos.

[James D. Macdonald]

Uncle Jim: I just got my WIP1 back from a professional editor. He is happy about the writing, the characters, the humour, but he says the plot needs a lot of work.

You might ask this editor for specific suggestions. Making specific suggestions is the editor's job.

May I ask the circumstances under which you found your editor, and why you felt hiring a professional editor was necessary?


He suggests I read *The Writer's Journey* by Chistopher Vogler (Pan). I've ordered the book from Amazon.

He suggested you read a book?


Do you have any other suggestions on how I can educate myself on plots, the inclusion of fear/tension and pacing, I suppose? I tried reading through this writing course, but after 200 posts, I thought "There must be an easier way."

I talk about plots pretty frequently in this thread. You might try the Index (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8754) (elsewhere in Novels), or you might try Googling (http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aabsolutewrite.com+%22Uncle+Jim%22+ plot).

The fastest suggestion I can make is to read a lot of novels, paying close attention to the plots. A plot is, essentially, "This happened, then that happened because...."


Read a lot; write a lot. All else follows.

[James D. Macdonald]

Let's play with the sample paragraph (above):

The third concert of the subscription series was given last evening, and a large audience was in attendance. Mr. Edward Appleton was the soloist, and the Boston Symphony Orchestra furnished the instrumental music. The former showed himself to be an artist of the first rank, while the latter proved itself fully deserving of its high reputation. The interest aroused by the series has been very gratifying to the Committee, and it is planned to give a similar series annually hereafter. The fourth concert will be given on Tuesday, May 10, when an equally attractive programme will be presented.

First thing I'm going to do is break up the sentences.

The third concert of the subscription series was given last evening. A large audience was in attendance. Mr. Edward Appleton was the soloist. The Boston Symphony Orchestra furnished the instrumental music. The former showed himself to be an artist of the first rank. The latter proved itself fully deserving of its high reputation. The interest aroused by the series has been very gratifying to the Committee. It is planned to give a similar series annually hereafter. The fourth concert will be given on Tuesday, May 10. An equally attractive programme will be presented.

Now let's remove the passive constructions.

The Boston Symphony Orchestra gave the third concert of the subscription series last evening. A large audience was in attendance. Mr. Edward Appleton was the soloist. The Boston Symphony Orchestra furnished the instrumental music. The former is an artist of the first rank. The latter proved itself fully deserving of its high reputation. The Committee has been very gratified by the interest the series aroused. The Committee plans to give a similar series annually hereafter. The Boston Symphony will give its fourth concert on Tuesday, May 10. An equally attractive programme will be presented.

Now to smooth things out and remove redundancies.

The Boston Symphony Orchestra gave the third concert of the subscription series to a large audience last evening. The orchestra again proved that it deserves its high reputation. Mr. Edward Appleton, an artist of the first rank, was the soloist. The Committee has been very gratified by the interest the series aroused. They plan to give a similar series annually hereafter. The Boston Symphony will present an equally attractive programme in its fourth concert on Tuesday, May 10.

The attentive reader will notice that there are three paragraphs contained in that one:

The Boston Symphony Orchestra gave the third concert of the subscription series to a large audience last evening. The orchestra again proved that it deserves its high reputation. Mr. Edward Appleton, an artist of the first rank, was the soloist.

The Committee has been very gratified by the interest the series is arousing. They plan to give a similar series each year from now on.

The Boston Symphony will present an equally attractive programme in its fourth concert on Tuesday, May 10.

[James D. Macdonald]

"Did you go to the Boston Symphony last night?" Bill asked.

"Sure did, but I almost didn't get a seat. The place was packed." Fred spread a bit more mustard on his corned-beef sandwich, then sat at the lunch table. "How about that Edward Appleton guy?"

"Outstanding soloist," Bill replied. "Did you ever hear vibrato like that? The orchestra's got a reputation to uphold. I'm glad I bought tickets to the whole concert series."

Fred took a big bite of his sandwich, chewed and swallowed, before he asked, "When's the next concert? I think maybe Ruth would want to go."

Bill checked his pocket calendar. "Tuesday, the 10th of May. I might invite Augie."

"See you there." Fred paused, looked out the window across the parking lot. A red sedan was just pulling off the highway. "I read in the paper that the Committee is planning to keep the series going next year, too. But look, I'll see you later. I have to go." He stood and walked hurriedly from the cafeteria, leaving the sandwich behind on the table.

"Hey," Bill called at his retreating back, "If you aren't going to eat that...?"

[Perle_Rare]

Much more interesting than the dry summary version. Made me wonder who's in the red sedan... :D

[smsarber]

Of course it is better than the summary version: The Master got ahold of it!
All kidding aside, that was a chunk of what could be an interesting soliloquy in a romance story, or part of a character study, or... you get the idea. Great UJ! Not that you need my praise. The small tidbit I did was what I could imagine, perhaps along with another small paragraph, as a write-up in a local paper. Of course UJ's approach to fixing said paragraph was easier than what I had done (then Shweta posted as the formula to fix); read it aloud. That's great for those of us playing the home game, but telling someone to read it aloud is no where near as impacting as showing the steps one can take to fix a BAD paragraph, though one with all the details. At least the important ones. Enough rambling for me. I had a point to address, but forgot and now lunch is ready.

[MadScientistMatt]

Nice! I, of course, like my version better. Kidding!! Interesting to include Gotterdammerung. Ever heard Monster Magnet's "Baby Gotterdammerung"? Anyway, Kudos.

I've never heard that one - I just was fishing around for a piece of classical music with vocals, and that one's got a pretty cool name.

I was going to come back and say that it could be more interesting to write it in showing instead of telling, but I see UJ's already demonstrated one way to turn it into showing, or at least dialog, and how that can bring it to life.

Then again, doing this with showing instead of telling and keeping it a blurb that's only supposed to be a few column-inches in a newspaper like the original seems to be would be a real challenge. Anyone up to try?

[smsarber]

My version:

"The subscription series' third installment was given before a large audience last night. The Boston Symphony Orchestra gave an acclaimed performance, accompanied by first-rate soloist Edward Appleton. The Committee was gratified by an increased interest in the series and will give it an annual run hereafter. There will be a fourth concert on Tuesday, May 10, with another exceptional program planned."

Orchestral Concert Series at Powell
Alicia Spartan
Arts and Entertainment Editor
The following is an excerpt from my conversation with Mr. Edward Appleton, soloist in last night's Orchestral Concert Series:

A.S.: "What do you feel were the highlights of last nights program?"

Appleton: "From the opening notes of the Grand Symphany Chimes and the tympani, followed by the swell of the oboes, through the closing E, C, and A notes from the Vibraphone. It was a stellar performance."

A.S.: "And your own personal performance?"

Appleton: "I felt I was in spectacular voice last night. And the design of Powell Symphany Hall allows for unmatched acustical quality. I could feel the notes I sang resonate through the theater."

A.S.: "Did you feel you were singing for the life of this series?"

Appleton: "Of course. A series like this depends solely on the performances of the musicians as well as the vocalist. The next installment on May 10th will surely secure an annual contract from the Committee."

To read the remainder of this interview please visit; www.dontbotherthissitedontexist/leadernews.com (http://www.dontbotherthissitedontexist/leadernews.com)


Ok. I changed a detail or two, and s**t, that was not as easy as I had so confidently, er, cockily expected.

[petronella63]

Here I am at the end of the thread after travelling through from post #1. I feel disappointed there isn't more for me to read.

Enjoyed the journey and learned a lot along the way, thanks to all of you. I learned as much from the questions as from the answers given.

Like everyone else who has visited this thread I'm working on a novel. A first draft of a science fantasy with a spaceship that has both the form and the size of a solar system, and is made up of individual ten-thousand-miles in diameter spheres - each sphere is an independent ship as well as being part of the larger vessel. The ship was created by beings called synths, living creatures made up out of a variety of nanomachines. Synths come in many forms and sizes.

One of the synths in human form - by this I mean when he's dressed he looks like any other human - is my MC and first person narrator. More later, maybe. Have to run right now...

[platinumscript]

I actually wrote this line in my non-fiction biography. about 10 pages in, so as to let them see the 'talent--ha-ha before i got too cute. It's a snap-shot on their exodus from the Dust Bowl.

His relatives told him California was the place he ought to be, so he loaded up the Olds and moved the family. But they missed Beverly Hills by about 119 miles.

I also would love an opinion on this one other 'questionable phrase'. Big time event. Anticipation is building.

Thousand in the audience were experiencing multiple a.c.p.s.'s (ass-clenchings per second).

Starbucks fanatics would appreciate the humor perhaps but...? I note that the tone of most similiar pieces is usually quite 'buttoned-down' i'm not inclined to follow that kind of dull style. whatya think folks? I pulled the ascp's 'cause they weree on the 2nd page and i wimped out. but i'm gonna use it somewhere in the ms. it was a proposal submitted with 30 sample pages.---blake comments?

[smsarber]

I'm confused... who's Blake?:Shrug:

[smsarber]

One more thing, I would personally need a little more of the story to know if the lines work. Seeing them by themselves, I would say no. They seem almost sugar-sweet to me. Contrite. Maybe tone it down a notch. But don't lose the emotion you need to convey. But what do I know? I hope someone more experienced can give you more to go on.

[Calliopenjo]

I actually wrote this line in my non-fiction biography. about 10 pages in, so as to let them see the 'talent--ha-ha before i got too cute. It's a snap-shot on their exodus from the Dust Bowl.

His relatives told him California was the place he ought to be, so he loaded up the Olds and moved the family. But they missed Beverly Hills by about 119 miles. I understand this comment and it has a sort of subtle humor to it bordering on sarcastic humor.

I also would love an opinion on this one other 'questionable phrase'. Big time event. Anticipation is building.

Thousand in the audience were experiencing multiple a.c.p.s.'s (ass-clenchings per second). This one though I just don't understand. You say ass-clenchings per second and I'm thinking the entire audience is flatulent.

Starbucks fanatics would appreciate the humor perhaps but...? I note that the tone of most similiar pieces is usually quite 'buttoned-down' i'm not inclined to follow that kind of dull style. whatya think folks? I pulled the ascp's 'cause they weree on the 2nd page and i wimped out. but i'm gonna use it somewhere in the ms. it was a proposal submitted with 30 sample pages.---blake comments?

My comments are above in red from the view point of a reader.

[pictopedia]

Thanks for the step-by-step rewrite, Uncle Jim! Wow, I wasn't even aware of all those passive sentences. Now I see them.

@MadScientist: Love your version, putting Mr. Edward Appleton at the head of the sentence.

I don't know him, but I assume that he would like that position. He'd probably call the paper and congratulate them on the article, and your boss would give you, as the reporter who wrote it, a raise. So you would go out and allow yourself a little celebration, and get one of those famous corned-beef sandwiches at that new place. But as you sit down, you would overhear a conversation that would make your reporter's ears stand up. You would pocket your sandwich and walk after the guy heading out to the red sedan. Something is strange about him. You cross the street......

[James D. Macdonald]

I don't think the hidden quote from the Beverly Hills Hillbillies theme song ... is going to fly unless you get permission.

Heck of a thing, working in commercial art, isn't it?

[James D. Macdonald]

I don't know him, but I assume that he would like that position. He'd probably call the paper and congratulate them on the article, and your boss would give you, as the reporter who wrote it, a raise. So you would go out and allow yourself a little celebration, and get one of those famous corned-beef sandwiches at that new place. But as you sit down, you would overhear a conversation that would make your reporter's ears stand up. You would pocket your sandwich and walk after the guy heading out to the red sedan. Something is strange about him. You cross the street......

And that, my friend, is how you plot a novel. You just follow your characters around. Put interesting people in interesting places, give them something interesting to do, and everything else follows.


The Symphony Orchestra nightly
Gives performances that are known, rightly,
As the best in the land.
Mr. Appleton's stand
Was polished, superb, also sprightly.

[smsarber]

:thankyou:The Symphony Orchestra nightly
Gives performances that are known, rightly,
As the best in the land.
Mr. Appleton's stand
Was polished, superb, also sprightly. :e2cheer:

[Ken Schneider]

The Boston Symphony Orchestra gave the third concert of the subscription series to a large audience last evening. The orchestra again proved that it deserves its high reputation. Mr. Edward Appleton, an artist of the first rank, was the soloist.

The Committee has been very gratified by the interest the series is arousing. They plan to give a similar series each year from now on.

The Boston Symphony will present an equally attractive programme in its fourth concert on Tuesday, May 10.

A little stiff for me, but, it may be meant to be so for a discerning audience.

The Boston Symphony Orchestra received high praise once again after it's third concert of this season's subscription series.
Mr. Edward Appleton, the evening's soloist, and top Baritone, gave a rousing performance.

The Committee is very pleased with the interest the series has garnered.
The programme has been so well received that the committee plans to make similar series an annual event

The Boston Symphony returns to the venue on March 10th with another attractive programme.

Ken

[pictopedia]

Sorry to change the subject again, but I wanted to react to something euclid said earlier about the Hero's Journey. Incidentally I did a journey of my own, the past weeks, into that subject: the different concepts on story structure. These are some of the charts I found that are based on the Campbell/Vogler structure euclid mentioned:



http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3068/2844943207_c5ed968cae.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3010/2844968927_4d893277b5_o.png

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3295/2844968961_2a0ba0f5e3_o.jpg


Most people seem to agree that these structures apply to both movie scripts and novels, and any other kind of story telling.

Since I am compulsive I am currently collecting all structures I can find in an excel chart. I want to find out where they overlap, and where they differ. So far, I have collected the structures of known figures of the screenwriting scene (Viki King, Rober McKee, John Truby, Barry Pearson, Campbel/Vogel, John Vorhaus), and others like David Siegel or Umberto Eco.

Currently, I can only say that for some reason, a lot of them agree that Act 2 starts at exactly page 85 (of a screenplay, that is). I like the oddity of that.

Then there are phenomeons like this:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3190/2845803132_c04ae56847_o.jpg

Above is a chart of the emotional curve in a 120 minute movie script, below is the the hat from The Little Prince by Antoine de Saint Exupery


But, of course, we know, what this is. It's not a story. It's not a hat. It's an elephant.

[euclid]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3190/2845803132_c04ae56847_o.jpg

... the hat from The Little Prince by Antoine de Saint Exupery

But, of course, we know, what this is. It's not a story. It's not a hat. It's an elephant.

It looks like a boa constrictor after a good meal !!!!!!
Or a diplodocus sitting down.
Actually, it looks like the pattern of Lord of the Rings - part 3, which goes on and on and on at the end. (Great film, though, one of my all time favourites)

[pictopedia]

It is a snake.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3093/2847529858_8398b7f8e2.jpg

You just passed the Prince test.

[euclid]

At the risk of changing the subject yet again: My WIP1 is 90,000 words, and I have been advised that it is too short. For WIP2, which I am writing at the moment, I have been aiming at 100,000. Then I came across a great blog by a published author on "How to Write a Novel". She says:

Also necessary is a lead protagonist who makes us want to stand up and cheer for him while he's undergoing all the trials he's faced with during your 65,000-85,000 word manuscript. By the way, I didn't choose that word count arbitrarily; it's the standard word count for the average "first novel" manuscript. Anything less and the MS would be a novella (few publishing prospects there!) and anything more would hike the book's production costs so high that some publishers will be disinclined to take the financial risk.

So what is the preferred length for a first novel?

[James D. Macdonald]

So what is the preferred length for a first novel?

Depends on the genre, but generally 80-100K words.

[smsarber]

And if you look at "Manuscript Formatting" in this forum it says 50,000 for fiction. That was why my early projection was 55,000 for my book. But I quickly did the math and figured out that it would be to short. The first draft is 53,000, and only 204 pages.
So here is a Q Uncle Sage, Absolute Jim; On average, when a publisher formats a general fiction novel, how many of our double-spaced manu-formatted pages make up a printed page? I ask because, like J. Patterson, I write in super-short chapters. 850 to 1200 words. I know when the publishing house formats it they can use tricks to make the page count higher, I'm just curious.

[James D. Macdonald]

On average, when a publisher formats a general fiction novel, how many of our double-spaced manu-formatted pages make up a printed page?

As many as the book designer wants. There isn't an answer to that question.


----

But! Today, just for y'all, Secrets of the Pros, #573: How To Get a New York Times Best-Selling Plot for Just Fifty Cents!

1) Go to a used book store.
2) Go to the back where they have a box labeled "Any book in this bin, $0.50"
3) Look through the box until you find a book that has "New York Times Best Seller" on the cover.
4) Buy that book.
5) Use the plot.


Tomorrow: Secrets of the Pros, #574: How to Get an Award-winning Plot for Only a Quarter!

[euclid]

Depends on the genre, but generally 80-100K words.

Hi Uncle Jim,
Could you break that down by genre, please? :)

I'm sure 50,000-55,000 quoted by smsarber is too short for anything but a children's or YA book. Am I right?

[smsarber]

Please do not attribute that quote to me, euclid. Look in the "General Manuscript Formatting" thread at the top of Writing novels. The 50,000 word line is from CathyC. But I would agree that it is too short for anything but YA. Or a novella. ;)


PS I just went back and checked; it had been quite a while since I had looked at that sticky. In her General Formatting write up it lists a general fiction manu at "over 30,000 words".

[James D. Macdonald]

Hi Uncle Jim,
Could you break that down by genre, please? :)

I'm sure 50,000-55,000 quoted by smsarber is too short for anything but a children's or YA book. Am I right?

Yeah, 50K is YA territory. For genres -- go to a bookstore and start counting. Or look at specific publishers' guidelines. They'll tell you what they're looking for.

[pictopedia]

I found something that could go into the "Secrets of the Pros #575". Copied from: http://www.blakesnyder.com/tools/


In the mood for horror but can’t nail the story? Here’s 10 ways to unleash your inner Stephen King.
10 HORROR CONCEPT EXCERCISES by Blake Snyder

1. Trapped -- In so many horror movies, the concept of being imprisoned in an enclosed space with a monster is the movie. We see this in The Abyss, Alien, and Saw. What new place or situation can you put characters in which they are trapped? This is essentially taking one of the three building blocks of the Monster in the House movie and challenging yourself to come up with a new “house” for the heroes to be stuck in. Where have we not seen a MITH movie set yet? Example: A movie called Area 51: “Teens break into an abandoned government facility and discover it is haunted by the ghosts of aliens experimented on in the ‘70s who now seek revenge against all mankind.” ACTION STEP: Make a list of new “houses” to set a MITH.

2. Cursed -- Another common starting point for horror movies is to concentrate on the curse aspect of the set-up, the classic example being all those Mummy movies where the explorers violate the warning label on the sarcophagus. This is essentially looking at another basic point of the MITH and saying: What new “sin” can I come up with to create a better movie idea? Example: In my movie Granny, the sin is any teenager who violates the rules of etiquette in the book Granny carries with her. Their “sin” is not knowing good manners. What other sins can we use as starting points: the seven deadly ones? What are we most guilty about today?
ACTION STEP: Make a list of new “sins” to incite a MITH.

3. Godzilla Lives! -- In the ‘50s, we created a whole slew of monsters from the A-Bomb and its testing. What new way to create a monster from our guilt today makes for an exercise dealing with the third aspect of a good MITH: the monster! What new monsters can be created? And maybe we can go “low tech” here, too. A zoo where experimentation is taking place might lead to a bunch of new killer zebras, penguins, or bears? Maybe it’s a run-down kennel or puppy mill, but this time, focus on the monster, not the how or the where. ACTION STEP: Make a list of new “monsters” to begin a MITH movie.

4. Torn from today’s headlines! -- Many of the best movie ideas come from incidents right out of the newspaper that are fictionalized in films. This can be part of the creation of good horror films, too. Can we not, for instance, set a horror movie in the middle of the war in Iraq? What about using stories about the Space Shuttle, a Hurricane in the Deep South, a new advance in medicine, or a discovery of a new astronomical breakthrough as the basis of a new scary movie? Why not indeed! ACTION STEP: Start a clip file for horror. Print out from newspapers one story a week that can be the basis of a new horror movie and pitch it to friends.

5. Inversion -- For every horror film there is a comedy version, e.g. Scary Movie. But what if we start with a comedy and make it scary? ACTION STEP: Take Leonard Maltin’s Movie Guide, find the comedy section, and turn those films into scary movies. Can Wedding Crashers be made into a horror film? How about Wedding Crasher Zombies who eat the brains of wedding guests at events they were not invited to? How about 40-Year-Old Virgin? Why not 400-Year-Old Virgin Who Wants My Girlfriend?

6. The New Coke! -- This is a great exercise for any screenwriter and any creative thinker in today’s world of branding and marketing. Find a movie type (i.e., Vampire films) and figure out a way to do “The New One.” For this exercise it is best to find types of movies that are so old, so hackneyed, so “out” that we consider them dead, dead, dead. And actually vampire movies are a perfect example. Haven’t we seen every kind ever over the years? Well, where is the Sean of the Dead version? Ah-ha! Just saying that tells us there’s life in Dracula yet! ACTION STEP: Make a list of every bad monster film ever -- especially those that you think will NEVER be revived. Second, think of yourself as a branding expert. You’ve been called in to invigorate a product. How can you re-package it, revive it, find a twist that will bring the franchise back from the dead? What about The Mummy, Wolfman, Dracula, Creature from the Black Lagoon?

7. Zapped! -- A lot of horror movies involve transformation, e.g., The Fly. In essence, the man becomes the monster and is trapped in his own “house” due to the sin of trying to be God. Messing with the laws of nature is the common sin in these MITH movies, and the result is always baaaaaaaaaad! So let’s ask ourselves, what new way can an experimenting scientist transform himself into a monster? What other ways of dabbling with the dark side are there to summon up a transmutation that with one fell zap! can make a man into a monster? ACTION STEP: Make a list of “messing with nature” experiments and the resulting “thing” that comes from that, then create a sinful way for the scientists to regret their “lab rat.”

8. Sex and the Single Monster -- Many times the heroine of a movie falls for a monster, e.g., King Kong. Even Dracula has this difficulty; it’s so hard to meet girls who only work at night! But if romance can be the basis of a good rom-com why not a horror film? Well, who is that girl or guy who can fall for “a monster”? Why not start with the “normal” one who is the hero of our movie and pair them off with their thematic opposite. ACTION STEP: Make a list of romantic leads, you can even borrow from classic love story movies, and pair them with a new “monster.” Who is it? And how do they transform?

9. Geographic, my dear Monster -- Places. That’s what this exercise is about. What is it about the desert, the icy Antarctic, or the jungle, besides isolation, that makes for such wonderful horror films. Well, where’s yours set? ACTION STEP: Look at a map and find a place in the world to set a horror flick. How is a movie set in NYC different from one set in Mexico City or the suburbs of LA? How can you create a monster and a problem that is indigenous to the place, maybe tie it in to the ancient legends of that area. Isn’t a Navajo legend perfect for the Arizona setting? You can also think geographic “fish out of water” and bring the Navajo curse to the city with an exhibit at an urban museum. But start with place. What is it about the locale that is scary?

10. Social Commentary -- Finally, what better way to come up with a movie for a genre that is decidedly underrated than to lace your idea with deeper inner meaning or statement? Beneath the surface of many great horror films is decided social commentary, e.g., Invasion of the Body Snatchers as a metaphor for the Red Scare in the ‘50s or the John Carpenter movie, They Live, a tract on the Reagan ‘80s and the rise of the “Yuppie.” What do you want to get off your chest about the state of the world? Find a way to speak to the public at large by expressing yourself in the blood ‘n guts mayhem of a good B movie. ACTION STEP: Make a list of social, political, or theological points of view you wish to discuss. Now embody differing sides of the argument with characters who represent that point of view. Let’s see how creatively you can get on your soapbox to send a message without calling Western Union!

[FOTSGreg]

I guess I have officially entered Query Hell. I've gotten back 2 rejections on a query and still have one out there with more due to be sent out over the weekend and all through the rest of the month and going on until I land an agent. However, what makes this Query Hell for me is an experience I've had today down in the SYW forum for query letters.

I posted the draft that I sent out to my first three agent picks down there yesterday evening I believe. By this evening I had gotten several useful and interesting comments and some good feedback.

The hellish part was that as more and more people commented the comments started to drift in circles. One person said put your bio up front. One person said make the voice more active. Another said put in the fact I'd done more than just researched 2 websites. The next person would almost immediately contradict the previous poster's comments. Some people seemed to want me to tell them the whole book's story in a single paragraph and then answer questions about the book rather than the query itself.

I ended up telling the commenters to forget about asking me questions about the book and to stick with commenting on the query letter's contents. I did ask for critiques and feedback, yes, but it seemed to me they were trying to go beyond critiquing a fairly simple query letter and trying to dig for more information on the book.

Trying to sum up an entire book in a paragraph or two is a difficult enough process without commentators trying to run you in circles trying to fix the darned thing. I've written business contracts that were easier than writing a query letter.

Sorry, but I thought my experience here could prove a point for comment by Jim or some of the more experienced "hands" here.

[euclid]

The hellish part was that as more and more people commented the comments started to drift in circles.

Hi, Your experience must be quite common. The problem, of course, is that there are lots and lots of (well-meaning) beginners in the forum who will chip in their tuppence worth and have the potential to send you spinning in ever decreasing circles. You have to reject any advice that you feel doesn't make sense, while watching out for the gems of wisdom - there usually are one or two.

For query letters, have you read the sticky thread by Andrew Jameson? Sorry, but I don't know how to post the forum reference in here.

Good luck with it.

[HConn]

Trying to sum up an entire book in a paragraph or two is a difficult enough process without commentators trying to run you in circles trying to fix the darned thing. I've written business contracts that were easier than writing a query letter.

I sympathize. I landed an agent based on a cold query, and it was a ton of work to put it together.

Which doesn't make me an expert or anything, but I will tell you what I did: First: the description should be a person in a place with a problem/goal. Is there a plot point around page 30 or 50 that spins the story out? Give the story up until this point, with a clue as to what comes next.

Last: while feedback is useful, it's better to read and compare other authors' successful queries. Yesterday, the folks at sfnovelists did a Query Project ( http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/09/12/the-query-project/ ) in which the members posted successful queries and commented on them.

The thing to remember as you read them all is this: what matters is not how all the queries are different. What matters is the ways they are similar.

Good luck. This part isn't fun, but it's necessary.

[smsarber]

You should read Scott Edelstein's "30 Steps to Becoming a Writer". It covers the entire process of writing to be published, including manu formatting, queries, cover letters, etc... You can probably find a good used copy on Amazon for a few dollars.

[RJK]

I went through the same experience when I posted my query letter. You just have to thresh out the wheat from the chaff. After MANY iterations I revised my original letter. It is not perfect, but it is as close as I'm going to get. I've sent out 39 letters with slight modifications to each and so far have received 22 rejections and 1 request for a full manuscript.
All I can say is, it's not an easy process and, although there are guidelines, there's no formula to creating the perfect letter for your MS.

[FOTSGreg]

I don't have the Edelstein book, but I have The First Five Pages by Noah Lukeman, and Give 'Em What They Want by Blythe Camenson and Marshall J. Cook and they're pretty good. Jeff Herman's Guide to Book Publishers, Editors & Literary Agents also has lots of good advice in it in my opinion. And, of course, I've perused and studied the threads here over the last year or so plus AgentQuery, QueryTracker, and a couple dozen other agent sites.

What was funny, and what I really allowed myself to get frustrated about (not to mention a little upset with the commenters) was when they started asking for details of the book that even an agent would only ask about in a partial or a full request. I can laugh about it now, but...

I've seen the basic guidelines for structure go as follows,

Intro/Address
Hook
Expository paragraph
Bio
Close

But it was funny when people started suggesting changes to the basic format such as,

Intro/Address
Bio
Hook
Expository paragraph
Close

or

Intro/Address
Hook
Bio
Expository paragraph
Close

I've got my query to well under a single page, see a few things that need a little work, but my experience down at SYM virtually guarantees I'll never try that route again.

Thanks for all your comments. At least I can usually count on the folks on this thread (and the folks over at the Analog forum) to know what you're talking about.

[FOTSGreg]

Actually, I changed my mind and am giving JanDary and jclarkdawe another chance to tear my letter apart. Guess I'll give you folks a chance at it too since this thread is also a place to learn. This is not the whole thing, just the guts. It's also the order I think things ought to be in.

-----
Everybody knows that giant insects cannot exist, right? That’s what Jason Carter, fifth-year graduate student in entomology at UC Berkeley, knows to be fact. But when he discovers the carcass of an eight-inch beetle in the Oakland Hills and his home town in Kentucky is destroyed by mouse-sized ants, he discovers that what he knows is no longer true. Recruited into an organization dedicated to battling scientific threats, he is tempted by an enemy agent, leads a team into the hills and learns more than he expected about the re-emergence of giant insects into the ecology. Entrusted with finding the cause and with a swarm of giant ants about to overrun the Cal campus, Jason is betrayed by a trusted friend and targeted for assassination. Caught in a cat-and-mouse chase across the campus, Jason must stay alive if he is to avert global megafamine as genetically-engineered giant insects plunge the world into catastrophe.

I am seeking representation for my 80,000-word science fiction novel Hatchings.
-----

Thanks,
Greg

[James D. Macdonald]

"Do not go to the elves for counsel, for they will say both 'yes' and 'no'."
-- The Lord of the Rings

If you ask two writers for their opinion, you'll get three answers. On the subject of query letters, within certain broad guidelines, there are no right answers.

Having said that -- let me say about the above example that "chased across campus" sounds mighty small-scale, and I'd like to know if Jason saves the world. This isn't a cover flap. You have to tell the ending.

[FOTSGreg]

Uncle Jim said, let me say about the above example that "chased across campus" sounds might small-scale, and I'd like to know if Jason saves the world. This isn't a cover flap. You have to tell the ending.

I do? Okay then. Nobody bothered to tell me that. Duh...

The chase takes up about the last 5 thousand words of the book. Jason manages to save the campus, but the book ends there. He hasn't yet managed to find those responsible or save the world. There's a POV switch at the very end where his sidekick (Smith) realizes he's following another general (Jason) into another war.

There is a follow-on volume (not yet written - at least 1, maybe 2), but I've seen that it's a bad idea to tell an agent this up front especially for a first book (the first book stands on its own for the most part, but it's fairly obvious there needs to be another one at the end).

BTW, and just as an aside, I'm having one of those "2 years of my life wasted" moments (mostly in revising and polishing this stupid beast though it really is and has been my main focus the last 2 years).

[Judg]

Hmm, a good number of agents say you don't have to tell the ending in a query. In a synopsis, yes, but the query's function is to entice them to read.

[James D. Macdonald]

Secrets of the Pros, #259: Dealing with Rejection


1) Go outdoors.
2) Turn your face to the sky.
3) Shake your fist at the sky.
4) Say, in a loud tone of voice, "Laugh, ye mucker!"
5) Go back inside and slide your story into a new envelope with a new cover letter and a new SASE.
6) Mail it.

===========

Uh-oh. Unwritten second volume holds the climax? Let's a) write the second volume, and b) combine it with the first volume to make one book.

[Perle_Rare]

This isn't a cover flap. You have to tell the ending.

Hmm, a good number of agents say you don't have to tell the ending in a query. In a synopsis, yes, but the query's function is to entice them to read.

Uh-oh. Unwritten second volume holds the climax? Let's a) write the second volume, and b) combine it with the first volume to make one book.


There you have it: Two writers, three opinions. Exactly as predicted... :D

[FOTSGreg]

Uncle Jim wrote, Uh-oh. Unwritten second volume holds the climax? Let's a) write the second volume, and b) combine it with the first volume to make one book.

No offense intended, sir, but (almost entirely in jest) - Uh, huh. Both books combined will likely run to 150k words or thereabouts. What was that about big books by first timey authors?

Then there's 2 more years rewriting & revising the 2nd book. Then another year or two before it comes out (assuming that happens - ever) after I find an agent to market it. So, 3-4 years from now I might, might, see the book in some form?

At this point, given this advice, and with the sure and certain knowledge that it's virtually impossible for a first timer to get such a large volume published and it's also virtually impossible for a first timer to sell a series, I'm more than ever feeling that all I want to do is set it aside as wasted effort and get going on my other half dozen partials (which have been languishing for lack of attention since I've been paying so much attention to this one) and complete them (along with the dozen or more short stories that have also been pushed aside).

If I set my mind to it I can complete a 75-80k novel in 90 days (I did the first draft of this one in 35 writing days, but the research plus writing required from Jan 1- Mar 28 and it came in at 65k) - Oh, and I was working at the time too (I'm not now and have much more time to spend on my computer banging the keyboard (until such time as I get another day job, that is)).

:-)

[smsarber]

And just where did this certain knowledge come from??? I would have to suppose that in the sci-fi/fantasy genre, series' by first time authors are not unheard of, if not common.

[Scribhneoir]

Both books combined will likely run to 150k words or thereabouts. What was that about big books by first timey authors?

First timey author or not, I'd say you've got a much better chance of selling a big book with a complete story and a satisfying ending than you do a shorter book with half a story and a "to be continued" ending.

I think you should heed Uncle Jim's advice.

[FOTSGreg]

Scrib, It's highly likely I will.

I guess nobody noticed the (almost entirely in jest) comment or the little smiley at the end.

smbarber, It was meant almost entirely in jest, but I've seen it said in a lot of different places including here on AW that big books and series by first timers are very difficult propositions to push - even harder than getting first time books published. Virtually everything I've read in regards to agents says the same thing - don't tell them it's a series (in my case it's not, really - it's just open ended with no final solution leaving an opening for a sequel), don't try a 150k book right out of the mark.

I'm not criticizing James D. MacDonald, far from it, but I am poking a little fun at him even if it did come at my own expense.

[smsarber]

Noticed, and noted. It just didn't seem like as much jest as tongue in cheek. Regardless, write the best book you can. If you decide to make it 150,000 words, or even 500,000, do whatever holds the integity of your work best. If you go longer it may take a bit more effort to get published, but the excitement is in the challenge. Am I right?;)

[Chrisla]

My next suggestion is also going to be work: Take your favorite novel.

Now, retype the first chapter. Do this with your writer's eye, not your reader's eye. Think about the lengths of the sentences, the lengths of the paragraphs, the sounds of the words. Think about the order of the scenes. Notice the dialog. How are the dialog tags rendered? Where is the point of view?

The point of this exercise is this: Have you ever gone to an art museum and seen the art students sitting there with their easels and oils, copying the great masters? The point isn't to turn them into plagairists, or to make them expert forgers. The point is to get the feeling into their hands and arms of how to make the brush strokes that create a particular illusion on canvas. Writing is no less a physical skill than painting. The words are your paints, the sentences your brush strokes. Following a master, asking yourself, always, why. Why did he or she choose this word rather than another? Why was this scene from this particular point of view? Why did the scene end there?

Writing is an art. Everything is there because the artist (that's you!) chose to put it there. The surface meaning, the deeper themes, those are your choice.

I can hear you saying, "Yeah, right, Uncle Jim. You say 'Retype a chapter,' but I bet you never did that."

Wrong-o, my friends. I did just that (I did more -- I retyped entire books). You can find some of them <a href="http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/lit.htm" target="_new">here</a>, the ones that I still had on disk to convert to HTML and which were in public domain.

At the very worst your typing skills will improve, and that's nothing to sneeze at.

Assignments: Get a copy of Logical Chess Move By Move, and work through the problems. Get a novel that you personally really admire, and retype the first chapter.



Do you choose different types of books for the typing exercise? I remembered a book I liked because the author created such memorable characters. It's a big book and the chapters are long. She does a good job of combining dialogue with action so there are not a lot of tags. But thus far, I have typed: I lied, he observed, I agreed, I asked (three times), he answered, he admonished, I answered, I said pessimistically, I suggested, I interrupted, he said equably, I said dryly, he muttered, he said in awful tones, he nodded good-humoredly, I said (twice), I observed, he explained (twice), he said absently, he confided, she said, she confided, he asked (twice), she interjected, he remarked.

I also have found "peering interestedly," 'rivetingly fascinating," and other adverbs and adjectives that I have not the least doubt that I'd trip over when reading aloud.

I don't think I want to keep typing this material.

But, this author does create memorable characters and is a good story teller. So my question is: Do I only retype and study the portions of her book where she is developing characters, then find another author who does a great job with action scenes and type those, then another who makes great transitions, etc.?

Is this why you typed so many books?

[FOTSGreg]

smbarber wrote, the excitement is in the challenge. Am I right?

Gaaah! But, yes, you're right.

When I was writing this book, the excitement was in the thrill of the writing, the thrill of the pace, the thrill of creating the characters, the dialogue, the scenes, everything - the thrill of the chase as you said..

I let it sit on my shelves for almost 8 months without even looking at the thing after I was done with it.

When I'm "in" the book, revising, editing, cutting, chopping, adding, or whatever, the thrill is still there - it's the actual wading in that I dread, but once I'm in there, it's the thrill of the chase all over again.

[Stlight]

My confusion in query hell was that it seemed the query was becoming a somewhat shrunken synopsis. a 150/200 word synopsis. Is that the intent? It seems redundant when one is asked to send a synopsis as well.

Stlight

[allenparker]

My confusion in query hell was that it seemed the query was becoming a somewhat shrunken synopsis. a 150/200 word synopsis. Is that the intent? It seems redundant when one is asked to send a synopsis as well.

Stlight

Your synopsis might not get read. The query is meant to interest the agent enough to :

a) read the synopsis
b) read the sample chapters.

A and B are meant to grab the agent enough to ask for more.

Just because you send something in doesn't mean they will read all of what you send.

[HConn]

My confusion in query hell was that it seemed the query was becoming a somewhat shrunken synopsis. a 150/200 word synopsis. Is that the intent? It seems redundant when one is asked to send a synopsis as well.

Not every agent wants a synopsis.

I just figured the word count for the synopsis section of my (successful) query. It was two paragraphs, 130 words. And really, that's a little long. The first paragraph sets up the situation, which is a little unusual, and the second describes the meat of the plot.

And I didn't include the ending in the query, although it was certainly in the synopsis (which I kept down to a page and a half). Shorter = better.

IMOSHO, the best thing you can do to figure out queries is to read a bunch of successful ones (I included a link to about ten of them in my last post in this thread). Yeah, you'll see a lot of differences between them.

But the important thing is to look at what is the same.

You guys read a lot of agents' blogs, yeah?

[smsarber]

I don't know if this will help. It's taken from "30 Steps to Becoming a Writer" by Scott Edelstein:

"Your cover (query) letter should be brief and to the point- normally no more than three or four short paragraphs on a single page. The writing should be clear, concise, and businesslike. Consider a cover letter a communication between professionals, not a sales pitch or advertisement. Prepare each cover letter in standard business letter form, using black ink, single spacing, a standard font and type size, and a letter-quality printer (laser if at all possible).

The first paragraph of your cover letter should describe your submission very briefly, in a single phrase or sentence. For example:
* I'm pleased to send you "The Painted Moon," a short story set in contemporary Zimbabwe.
* I've enclosed a copy of "Borrowing 101," a parent's guide to the Department of Higher Education's higher education loans.
* I wanted you to have a chance to see my most recent feature, "Santa on a Surfboard," a factual but not terribly reverent look at Christmas in Australia.

Your next paragraph should- again, very briefly- present a small amount of information about you. This information must either 1) establish you as an experienced and serious writer, 2) relate your background or experience to your submission in some relevent way, or 3) both. For instance:
* These poems are based on the three years i spent as a child in an Algiers orphanage, which bore little relation to the orphanages here in North America.
* I've been writing fiction for the past two years and have been enjoying you magazine for well over a decade.
* I've published short pieces in two area newspapers, and have an essay forthcoming in the magazine Speakeasy.

You must tell the truth about yourself, of course- though there's nothing wrong with putting the most positive spin on it. (For example, the "pieces in two area newspapers" mentioned above might be brief book reviews in two neighborhood publications." Don't mention anything that will sound trivial, or irrelevant, like your honorable mention in the local Kiwanis Club's writing competition.

If you have nothing relevant to say about yourself- and this is often the case with newer writers- then omit this paragraph entirely.

Your final paragraph is your chance to add a few details pertaining to your submission. First let the editor know that you're enclosing a self-addressed, stamped envelope (or SASE)- and, if appropriate, a floppy disc or CD containing an electronic file of the piece. Your SASE will normally be a regular business-size envelope with a single stamp on it. Include in this paragraph instrucions to recycle or destroy any manuscript that the editor does not with to publish. Conclude this paragraph with a friendlt closing statement of no longer than one sentence.


-There is more, but I haven't the time to type it now. I can copy a sample letter if anyone wants.

[James D. Macdonald]

Here's the example of the Perfect Cover Letter that I used way back at the beginning of this thread:

I promised you The Perfect Cover Letter:


Salvatore Luchese
Cell Block B
2nd Tier, #34
Ft. Leavenworth Federal Prison
Ft. Leavenworth, KS 66027


(913) 123-4567


Dear [NAMEOFEDITORSPELLEDRIGHT],

Enclosed please find the first three chapters and an outline for my 120,000 word mystery novel, "Mafia Wedding."

My previous works include "Pushing Up Daises" (Ellery Queen's Mystery Magazine, June 2006, nominated for an Edgar, 2007), and "Sleeps with the Fishes," (Alfred Hitchcock's Mystery Magazine, September, 2005, reprinted in Year's Best Mystery Stories, 2005, Graham, ed., March 2006).

I am currently serving seven-to-ten for racketeering in Ft. Leavenworth Federal Prison.

This is a disposable manuscript.

Sincerely,

Salvatore "Sally the Writer" Luchese

encl: SASE


=========================

Notes:

First NAME OF EDITOR SPELLED RIGHT. (If you can't do this, perhaps you need a new hobby.)

Second: Very briefly: length, genre, and title.

Third: Any pertinent credits. Only the most recent and most prestigious. A good sale ten years ago means that you haven't sold anything since. A bunch of 1/4 cent-a-word recently means that you aren't selling. Don't even bother mentioning self-published or e-publications unless you sold enough on your own to hit the Times Bestseller List. If all you have is one or two lower-tier mags, and they're recent, then you might list them. If you've got eight or ten lower-tier mags and they stretch back over three or four years ... better to leave the impression that you're unpublished rather than brand the Scarlet L of Loser on your forehead.

Fourth: Any special qualifications you may have for writing this book.

Fifth: Any other notes (disposable manuscript).

Your name.

INCLUDE AN SASE.

The primary purpose of a cover letter is to give the editor something with your name, address, and phone number on it that will fit in a file cabinet. The secondary purpose is to give the editor somewhere to put her coffee cup without putting a brown ring on your manuscript.

Be brief, be professional, and SPELL THE EDITOR'S NAME RIGHT.

[FOTSGreg]

An editor acquaintance of mine said the following in regards to qeury letters,

Mentioning [a] non-paying webzine as your only fiction credits will be an automatic rejection.

You have to keep in mind that you're competing against thousands of other writers who are trying to sell their novels -- and many of those other writers have pro short-fiction credits.

Occasionally, someone breaks into novel publishing without taking the short-fiction-market stepping-stone path. You might be one of those. But if you mention amateur publications as your only fiction credits, you're announcing that you can't write professional-caliber fiction.

I think you'd be better off saying something like:

I have numerous non-fiction publications, but this is my first novel.

The last was in reference to my publishing credits which are largely non-fiction (newspapers, technical reports & reviews).

[smsarber]

"If you have nothing relevant to say about yourself- and this is often the case with newer writers- then omit this paragraph entirely."

In other words, use discretion as to what you choose to reveal about your history. If you have no fiction experience, don't include a non-fiction history in a fiction query.

[James D. Macdonald]

I went directly from one short-story sale to novels (but it was a good sale -- to a hardcover anthology from HarperCollins).

[FOTSGreg]

Yeah, I don't buy into the idea that short stories are a necessary stepping-stone to novel publication either. I can't really write a short story to save myself (they all either end up as really short 1200 words or so or really long above 9500 words).

My editor acquaintance works for a publication that does short stories, however, so he's biased towards them, but (and this is only my opinion after a few run-ins with the guy and a long off-forum email exchange) doubts the ability of newcomers who have not worked extensively with a pro editor. Now, he's a pro, working with a pro level publication, but I still listen to what he has to say - I just dont agree with him a hundred percent of the time and think he's harder than he needs to be with newbies (of which I am one so I'm also biased in that regard).

[Stlight]

Thanks everyone. I had a short story credit, two anothlogy credits and a mini publisher book credit, but they went and got way too old, so I'm just leaving that paragraph out. I wish I'd saved the query for the little bitty not too much in the way of distribution and maybe it wouldn't help to have it query, but you never know. I figure I was meant to have a fresh start so okay.

I don't think short stroies are the same as novels at all. I still don't know how I managed to write two of them.

Thanks again
Stlight

[James D. Macdonald]

Short stories and novels are very different (for all that they are similar).

What short story credits in your cover letter tells the editor is "This person is capable of writing on a professional level; some other editor paid cash for his/her prose."

That's why self-published works aren't helpful. They don't convey any information (unless the work sold something on the order of 5K-10K copies).

[a_morris]

With a query letter do you sign with your legal name or your psuedonym? If you sign with your legal name, where should you mention your psuedonym?

[smsarber]

With a query letter do you sign with your legal name or your psuedonym? If you sign with your legal name, where should you mention your psuedonym?


From what I understand you would not include your psuedonym anywhere in your cover letter. Only at the time you secure a contract. But I'm not 100% positive.

[James D. Macdonald]

With a query letter do you sign with your legal name or your psuedonym? If you sign with your legal name, where should you mention your psuedonym?

You sign with your legal name. (You want the checks to be made out to you, don't you?)

Where the pseudonym comes in, is in the byline:

TITLE
by
Pseudonym

Half-way down the first page.

(You can also use the pseud in the running head.)

[MadScientistMatt]

In other words, use discretion as to what you choose to reveal about your history. If you have no fiction experience, don't include a non-fiction history in a fiction query.

I'm planning to include nonfiction experience in a query once I get my novel rewritten enough to be publishable. I don't think it would hurt, and it would at least help establish that I don't fall into categories 1, 3, 4, 5, or 6 on the infamous Slushkiller (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004641.html) list. (Yes, I know that line below my user name appears on #4; it's kind of a tribute. And a reference to some times I've argued with people who come up with a lot of theory without good hard evidence.)

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Uncle Jim,

I have sort of an odd question and don't know where else to post it so that's it's being posted here. PHEW! How do you decide what story to write? Two story ideas have been bouncing around in my head and both are very appealing to me. That's the problem. Any ideas? :Shrug:

[smsarber]

Hi Uncle Jim,

I have sort of an odd question and don't know where else to post it so that's it's being posted here. PHEW! How do you decide what story to write? Two story ideas have been bouncing around in my head and both are very appealing to me. That's the problem. Any ideas? :Shrug:

Work on both; There is no rule that says you can only work on one story at a time. Actually, there are NO RULES to how to approach your work. I usually have a notebook I keep handy with various lines I will write as they come to me. Then I end up adding to two, or three, or more, of them at a time. So besides my novel I may have three or four short stories in various stages of completion at hand. Just do what works best for YOU!

[James D. Macdonald]

Two story ideas have been bouncing around in my head and both are very appealing to me.

Pick one.

Write it until you run out of steam.

Switch to the other. Write it until you run out of steam.

Switch back to the first. Write until you run out of steam....

Continue until you reach "The End" on both of them. Revise them. Then send them out.

And work on a third book.

[Calliopenjo]

Thanks guys. I have some idea now where to go. :Hug2:

[FOTSGreg]

Here's another question for ya'll - I kinda' know the answer to this, but I want to feel out different opinions on it,

Robert A. Heinlien once (infamously most likely) is said to have said "Rewrite only to editorial request". I have difficulty with this as a) Heinlein is one of the acknowledged masters of science fiction, and b) my stuff right out of the first draft is very rough and definitely not ready for any editor to see.

So, I would imagine that most of you would probably disagree with Heinlein, but whattaya' think? Rewrite extensively or not?

[bpmann]

That quote is usually taken out of context. He meant that once you have it the way you want it and start sending it out, don't have second thoughts and keep revising.

[Calliopenjo]

In answer to the FOTSGreg's question, I was originally told that before anybody sees your story fine tune it to the best of your ability. After it's been sent to the critique group, after it's been seen by the beta(s), and after all of that, which can take months or years, then submit the story. Because you only have one first impression and you have to make the most of it.

[MadScientistMatt]

I would disagree, but different things work for different authors. I'm not sure of Heinlien's writing method. He may have spent a lot of time outlining things, planning out the book, and been able to pound out a book that's close to publishable the first time around. Me, the only time I tried to write a novel and came up with something book length, I just sat down with an idea, a couple poorly defined characters, and started typing. Had to scrap it about six pages in and completely redo the start of it. Then just kept going. It'll need a lot of rewriting to be publishable.

[smsarber]

Hi Uncle Jim,

I have sort of an odd question and don't know where else to post it so that's it's being posted here. PHEW! How do you decide what story to write? Two story ideas have been bouncing around in my head and both are very appealing to me. That's the problem. Any ideas? :Shrug:

Hey, UJ, hope I didn't step on your toes by answering that one before you did. And I want to add one thing; Calliopenjo, JUST WRITE! That's what matters.

[Don]

Here's another question for ya'll - I kinda' know the answer to this, but I want to feel out different opinions on it,

Robert A. Heinlien once (infamously most likely) is said to have said "Rewrite only to editorial request". I have difficulty with this as a) Heinlein is one of the acknowledged masters of science fiction, and b) my stuff right out of the first draft is very rough and definitely not ready for any editor to see.

So, I would imagine that most of you would probably disagree with Heinlein, but whattaya' think? Rewrite extensively or not?
I wanted to post this to 1) confirm bpmann's explanation and 2) point out that it is sacrilege to disagree with Heinlein. :D

[James D. Macdonald]

Robert A. Heinlien once (infamously most likely) is said to have said "Rewrite only to editorial request". I have difficulty with this as a) Heinlein is one of the acknowledged masters of science fiction, and b) my stuff right out of the first draft is very rough and definitely not ready for any editor to see.




Heinlein rewrote and revised his works extensively before submitting them. He did not submit first drafts, nor was he advising others to do so.

What he meant was this: Once you've rewritten and revised your story to the best shape you can, once you start sending it out (and don't for a minute even consider sending out anything but your most polished work), don't then rewrite it every time it comes back with a rejection note.

If some editor says, "If you make changes A, B, and C I'll buy it," you're allowed to make those changes. But if you get "Sorry, not for us," that isn't the time to do a rewrite. Because you've already polished the work as much as you can.

[smsarber]

Hey Uncle Jim, question: Is there a way to save a blank manuscript format in Microsoft Word so each time I want to start a new manuscript it will be set the way I want it? I also have Microsoft Office, but I never use it.
I need to learn my computer better.:Hammer:

[RJK]

I'll answer for UJ. First we'd need to know what version of MS Word you're using. Second, you should ask the question over in Tech Help (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=81). Someone over there can give you the CORRECT answer with step by step instructions.

[euclid]

Hey Uncle Jim, question: Is there a way to save a blank manuscript format in Microsoft Word so each time I want to start a new manuscript it will be set the way I want it? I also have Microsoft Office, but I never use it.
I need to learn my computer better.:Hammer:

I think that's really easy. Take a file with text in that has all the settings that you prefer. save it as (say) blank.doc. Close both files (to be sure you don't lose your text). Then re-open blank.doc, remove all of the text from it (edit>select all>delete) and save it again.

Next time you want to start a new story or whatever, and you want your favourite settings, start with Blank.doc. Save it as Storyname.doc and away you go.

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/computer012.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

[smsarber]

Thanks. And my system is 2008 Windows Vista Home Premium, just to clarify.

[Dale Emery]

Hey Uncle Jim, question: Is there a way to save a blank manuscript format in Microsoft Word so each time I want to start a new manuscript it will be set the way I want it? I also have Microsoft Office, but I never use it.

I save a plain old document that I call NovelTemplate.doc.

To create NovelTemplate.doc, I create a minimal document with a title page, a header and footer, a dummy chapter one, a line of dummy text where the first scene will go, and whatever else I need. I format all of those elements the way I want them (font, spacing, etc.), then save it as NovelTemplate.doc.

Then whenever I want to start a new novel, I copy NovelTemplate.doc to a new file, open it, and start writing.

Dale

[smsarber]

I save a plain old document that I call NovelTemplate.doc.

To create NovelTemplate.doc, I create a minimal document with a title page, a header and footer, a dummy chapter one, a line of dummy text where the first scene will go, and whatever else I need. I format all of those elements the way I want them (font, spacing, etc.), then save it as NovelTemplate.doc.

Then whenever I want to start a new novel, I copy NovelTemplate.doc to a new file, open it, and start writing.

Dale
That's simple enough for even me to understand!!:hooray:

[Duncan J Macdonald]

I save a plain old document that I call NovelTemplate.doc.

To create NovelTemplate.doc, I create a minimal document with a title page, a header and footer, a dummy chapter one, a line of dummy text where the first scene will go, and whatever else I need. I format all of those elements the way I want them (font, spacing, etc.), then save it as NovelTemplate.doc.

Then whenever I want to start a new novel, I copy NovelTemplate.doc to a new file, open it, and start writing.

Dale
Which is why Micro$oft created the .dot file format (for Document Template). Then, you can open a new document using the template, and the template doesn't get overwritten.

[smsarber]

I just looked in my MS Word, and if I go under "save as" it has a tab for template. So it should be really easy. I should really do my leg work before I post silly questions.

[Dale Emery]

Which is why Micro$oft created the .dot file format (for Document Template). Then, you can open a new document using the template, and the template doesn't get overwritten

The challenge that created for me is how to keep the .dot file in sync with the .doc files that use it. I move from computer to computer a lot, and I often lost or confused the formatting because the computer I was working on lacked the right .dot file. If I remember right (I may be misremembering), the settings and mechanisms for managing templates and styles changed from one version of Word to the next, and I finally gave up on the whole template scheme. I now strongly prefer to keep the style definitions in the document rather than in the template. It has simplified my work.

As for making sure I don't overwrite the templates: I mark the template files as read-only. And I do automatic backups often, so if I do find a way to overwrite my template (which happens now and then), I can simply restore it from the backup.

Dale

[euclid]

Which is why Micro$oft created the .dot file format (for Document Template). Then, you can open a new document using the template, and the template doesn't get overwritten.

I have just posted a new thread in tech help, but maybe this template idea will solve my problem too.

To make a long story short (haha) I have now written a novel in 4 parts. Parts 1 - 3 have UK spellings, Part 4 (somehow) has US spellings. Could I use a Template to change the spell settings in Part 4? I mean, can you use a template to change settings on an existing file? Or do templates only work with new files?
:)

[RJK]

euclid - the short answer is "Yes" but again, you'll get your best answers in Tech help.

[Portia]

Heinlein rewrote and revised his works extensively before submitting them. He did not submit first drafts, nor was he advising others to do so.

What he meant was this: Once you've rewritten and revised your story to the best shape you can, once you start sending it out (and don't for a minute even consider sending out anything but your most polished work), don't then rewrite it every time it comes back with a rejection note.

If some editor says, "If you make changes A, B, and C I'll buy it," you're allowed to make those changes. But if you get "Sorry, not for us," that isn't the time to do a rewrite. Because you've already polished the work as much as you can.

I couldn't agree more. Writing is rewriting, after all. A book can always get better. Even after it's published (unfortunately). But you can't rewrite to please every person who ever reads your ms. That will make a mess of it.

My first book (historical novel) came out from Putnam this year. Re the font debate: I have always used 12 pt Times New Roman. I went through the entire editing process without my editor ever once asking me to switch to Courier. Perhaps it's different in different genres? Or for different houses? Or Perhaps Courier and TNR both are standard.

[smsarber]

Perhaps Courier and TNR both are standard.
As far as I know, they are.

[smsarber]

Uncle Jim, you've been doing this a long time. Do you ever get the "I suck"s? Or the "What was I thinking"s? A good many people, including myself, think I need to continue to follow my dream to be an author. It is one of the therapies that has helped me stay sober. But I have been in quite a funk, I can hardly write. I guess what I need to hear is "Get your ass back to work!"

[euclid]

Hi Uncle Jim,

I've been reading a detective mystery novel. I've noticed that this author uses a particular technique quite a bit. He writes one paragraph at the beginning of a chapter, and then fills in backstory as in mini-flashback in para2. Example (invented):

"[Para1:] The woman who opened the door was nothing like the woman in the photograph; age had been unkind to her... She turned away and retreated into the house, leaving the door wide open. I assumed this was an invitation to enter, so we followed her in.

"[Para 2:] The discussion in the station that morning had centred on whether we should send a policewoman on this delicate task; and I had taken the decision to conduct the interview myself. I never was one to shirk my responsibilities, even though I dreaded the encounter."

Any comments on this approach? I suppose it's not new, but is it a useful artifice? Are there situations where it should/should not be used?

[euclid]

Uncle Jim, you've been doing this a long time. Do you ever get the "I suck"s? Or the "What was I thinking"s? A good many people, including myself, think I need to continue to follow my dream to be an author. It is one of the therapies that has helped me stay sober. But I have been in quite a funk, I can hardly write. I guess what I need to hear is "Get your ass back to work!"

Everybody gets those at times. Put on your favourite music, cheer yourself up, and get your ass back to work. That's what I do.

:)

[smsarber]

Iron Maiden just isn't propelling me enough anymore. Guess I should put on Avenged Sevenfold!!

[euclid]

Iron Maiden just isn't propelling me enough anymore. Guess I should put on Avenged Sevenfold!!

Whatever oils those cogs. ;)

[James D. Macdonald]

Uncle Jim, you've been doing this a long time. Do you ever get the "I suck"s?

Oh, heavens to Betsy, yes.

I call it "Imposter syndrome." Any minute now my editors, readers, and everyone else is going to find out that I've just been faking it all along and I really can't write for sour beans.

=========

Meanwhile, on Microsoft Word questions, here's the answer: Delete Microsoft Word from your computer and install WordPerfect. This will make your writing better and faster, your teeth whiter, and get you a date with a hot person of your desired gender and preference.

[smsarber]

Okay, WordPerfect installed. I downloaded the free trial, which runs out in 30 days. The full version is $299.00; do you know of a cheaper way I can get it? I'm on disability and my wife is expecting our second baby, so I don't have a spare three-hundred lying around. (Of course I don't need this program to write well.) All right, I'm off to try it out and see how good it is.

[smsarber]

Okay, WordPerfect is pretty good, but UJ, you may have to come over and teach me all about the bells and whistles. Too bad I'll have to get rid of it in a month!

[Scribhneoir]

Okay, WordPerfect installed. I downloaded the free trial, which runs out in 30 days. The full version is $299.00; do you know of a cheaper way I can get it?

It's cheaper at Amazon than from Corel directly, if that helps.

All right, I'm off to try it out and see how good it is.

It's got Word beat all to hell. I bet it won't even take the full 30 days of your free trial to make you a convert. For your first bell and whistle, I give you Alt-F3 - Reveal Codes.

[Don]

Okay, WordPerfect installed. I downloaded the free trial, which runs out in 30 days. The full version is $299.00; do you know of a cheaper way I can get it? I'm on disability and my wife is expecting our second baby, so I don't have a spare three-hundred lying around. (Of course I don't need this program to write well.) All right, I'm off to try it out and see how good it is.
OpenOffice is free, and just as good. yWriter4 is designed for writing novels, and is also free.

[smcc360]

Another vote for OpenOffice2.4.1. And here's a link to it:

hXXp://download.openoffice.org/

Just change the 'XX' to 'tt'.

[blacbird]

OpenOffice is free, and just as good. yWriter4 is designed for writing novels, and is also free.

A minor caveat. The OpenOffice word processor is as good, or damn near as good, as MS-Word. And I use it regularly. Plus, the OpenOffice suite has some other good aspects (the drawing program in particular has some nice features). It's definitely worth having, especially so, given the price.

But the spreadsheet (which I also use, as appropriate) doesn't hold a candle to MS-Excel. Just be aware of that, if you ever work with spreadsheet software. MS-Excel is easily Microsoft's best designed major program for us benighted "users".

caw

[James D. Macdonald]

Okay.

To be a writer you must be a reader.

What's the last book you read?

When?

[bsolah]

Last book I finished reading was Heart-Shaped Box by Joe Hill, in August. But that was only the last 50 pages, because I put it down a year ago.

Before that was After Dark by Haruki Murakami in March!

I've started and stopped other books but far out, that's bad. I need to get to it!

[DisenchantedDoc]

Okay.

To be a writer you must be a reader.

What's the last book you read?

When?

You besides all the beta-reads?

The Story of Edgar Sawtelle in July

[Perle_Rare]

I'm in the middle of Stephen R. Lawhead's "The Iron Lance", first of the "Celtic Crusades" trilogy. I own the books and love to read them every few years.

I've also just picked up and started reading AW member Richard Satterlie's "Agnes Hahn".

I rarely spend a week without reading a book. Of course, that means I'm not spending quite as much time as I could writing my book... sigh...

[euclid]

Okay.

To be a writer you must be a reader.

What's the last book you read?

When?

My recent list (since June):

Self-editing for Fiction Writers
The First Five Pages, Lukeman
The Plot Thickens, Lukeman
The Writer's Journey, Vogler
The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas
Sophie Scholl and the White Rose, Dumbach and Newborn
The Savage Garden, Mark Mills
The Berlin Novels, Christopher Isherwood
Stalin's Ghost, Cruz Smith
Currently reading: Jar City by Arnaldur Indridason
Currently reading: The Prodigal Spy, Kanon
Waiting to read: 2 more books by Indridason, The Postman by Brin, etc.

[Chrisla]

Okay.

To be a writer you must be a reader.

What's the last book you read?

When?

Over the summer:
Finished rereading Pillars of the Earth
The Marble Sky
Three Cups of Tea
Mad River Road
Water for Elephants
Liar's Club
The Glass Castle
Stephen King on Writing
Have almost finished Modoc
Am working my way through The First Five Pages
(This one will take some time, since I'm doing all the exercises.)

[Sailor Kenshin]

Currently re-reading Chandler's Farewell, My Lovely, Blatty's The Exorcist and Tolkien's The Two Towers; just finished Dean Koontz' Strange Highways, and started By the Light of the Moon (DK).

Not to mention loads of nonfiction.

[Codger]

CAT AND MOUSE – Gunter Grass
AMERICA 1908 – Jim Rasenberger
THE FRIENDS OF EDDIE COYLE – George V. Higgins
WISDOM OF OUR FATHERS – Tim Russert
THE GREAT GATSBY – F. Scott Fitzgerald
THE MODERN LIBRARY WRITER'S WORKSHOP – Stephen Koch
THE CRIMINALIST – Eugene Izzi
MODERN ENGLISH USAGE – H.W. Fowler (Reference – not read)
INVASIONS – Eugene Izzi

It appears that I'm all over the map, but I read based on my interest(s), not toward a specific goal.

And yes, I'm adult A.D.D.

[Judg]

Axis by Robert Charles Wilson. Superb.

Working on Doris Lessing's The Golden Notebook. I don't think it's aged well.

And The Stone Angel by Margaret Laurence. (Lawrence?) Great writing, if only I could like the protagonist better.

[bsolah]

*Feels even more guilty by the impressive reading lists of other members*

[Chrisla]

*Feels even more guilty by the impressive reading lists of other members*

Ah, but maybe you're getting more writing done than my fitful starts and stops!

[bsolah]

Ah, but maybe you're getting more writing done than my fitful starts and stops!

Ha! Good one! I've been getting hardly any writing done lately, except recently started planning a new novel, which with work in the way (latest blog post explains my frustrations) makes it a slow process.

[FOTSGreg]

Currently reading,

Jack McDevitt's "Eternity Road"
Joe Konrath's "The Newbie's Guide To Publishing Book" and "Disturb"
David Hatcher Childress's "Extraterrestrial Archaeology"
Dean Koontz's "Midnight"
Arthur C. Clarke's "Childhood's End" and "Rendezvous With Rama"
Robert Heinlein's "Logic Of Empire"
H.P. Lovecraft's "Herbert West-Reanimator"

All on my Palm Tungsten E2 handheld.

[Chrisla]

Ha! Good one! I've been getting hardly any writing done lately, except recently started planning a new novel, which with work in the way (latest blog post explains my frustrations) makes it a slow process.

And I've spend weeks making false starts, trying to find a new beginning for a book I'm rewriting. I never expected it to be this tough!

[smcc360]

Windfall, by James Magnuson. Finished today.

Before that, Relative Danger, by Charles Benoit.

Nothing to Lose, by Lee Child.

And Havoc, by Jack DuBrul.

[Scribhneoir]

Finished Elizabeth George's Well-Schooled in Murder last Thursday. Currently reading Toothpaste's Alex and the Ironic Gentleman and Dashiell Hammett's The Glass Key. Tonight I dipped into the new EQMM that was in my mailbox.

[RJK]

I haven't kept count but I think I've read between 8 and 10 books over the Summer. Most were fiction, some were writing craft How-To's. The truth is, I do most of my reading right here on the PC. The internet provides so much information, it is hard to stop reading from it.
I still have a $50 Barnes & Noble gift certificate left over from my birthday. I just haven't had time to go there and browse.

[BlueLucario]

The last book i've read was Ender's Game.

Going to read Speaker for the dead by Orson Scott Card.

[CaroGirl]

I'm reading my 23rd book since January. Spending an hour commuting on the bus is giving me tons more time to read. It's the only benefit, really. I've read such novels as: Lottery, The Heart-Shaped Box, Specimen Days, I just finished The Jade Peony, and right now I'm reading Remembering the Bones by Frances Itani.

I believe you absolutely cannot be a strong writer unless you're an avid reader.

[Calliopenjo]

Well, I find a lot of stories on the internet. My interest lies with a genre that I know is not often found at Barnes & Noble or Borders. As for reading a story from a bookstore, that would be no.

September: Melting Ice by Alex Tryst.
August: Seduction of Laura by S. Anne Gardener.
July: Staying in the Game by Nann Dunne.
June: A place to Dance by Ali Vali.

That would be the most recent selection of stories/books I've read. During that time there was Define Destiny by JM Dragon, Double Play by Cruise, and Storm Surge by Melissa Good.

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Uncle Jim,

I have a bit of a problem. I guess. The bottom line is that I've been told that the dialogue needs work. But the thing is, I need to cram as much information as I can into the dialogue to show how the main character thinks. To showcase her narrow view point.

1) Her opinion on gays and lesbians.
2) Her opinion on "lefties."
3) Her opinion about herself.

My problem, I need suggestions on where to start to fix it. I need for it to happen in a short span of time.
==========
Deidre spoke up first. “Look Elise, I’m telling you, Leslie is not in our group anymore, because she told me herself that she is now dating Lisa.”

Elise replied happily “Oh Deidre, this Iced Frappuccino is simply delicious. It is so much better than Starbucks. Aren’t you going to finish yours? I still don’t know how two women can satisfy each other. It is far beyond my comprehension.”

“No no, a proper lady never finishes her meal. I will never be with another woman. Never. No, I require the attentions of a delicious man. A mixture of Tom Cruise, Patrick Swayze, and Matthew McConaughey, you put those men together you have my man. Mmmm, so sweet.”

“Oh would you stop that. Your nanny will get the wrong idea. Besides that, whatever happened to finding a man that has intelligence and a good soul.”

“Nanny. Nanny? Since when do I require the attention of a nanny at the age of twenty-one. You do remember my twenty-first birthday party. And all of that is fine if that’s what you are looking for.”

“How could I forget. You said the party was going to be on your boat. I was expecting a fishing boat. It was far from a boat, it was an ocean liner. . . at least as big as one. My family is pretty well off. I mean we do live in Kostbar Gates, but we have a tiny row boat compared to yours. We have a ninety foot yacht after all.”

Deidre smiled in satisfaction, remembering all that had happened. “It does help that the family’s holdings are very large. That was the night that Robert and I had sex in my room. Too bad he can’t be with me anymore.”

“You know, I was wondering about that. What happened?”

“Daddy bought the company that Robert was supposed to inherit. It would have been nice to be the wife of a racetrack owner. I can imagine the wonderful publicity it would cause. It would become the headlines of every major newspaper. I was hurt that daddy took away my dream. Then I got over it.”

“How did you do that?”

“Easy. It’s a seven letter word that begins with the letter ‘D’.”

“Dollar?”

“No, not even close but that does help.”

“That’s the only seven letter ‘D’ word I know. What is it then?”

“Dollar is a six letter word and the word is Derrick.”

“Derrick? As in Derrick Draper the son of the State Senator? That Derrick?”

“That would be the one. It’s marvelous publicity. I can see the headlines. The senator’s son and his new wife attending his father’s party. Wouldn’t that be delicious? He is so large which makes me look like the perfectly petite princess that I am. I have to look perfect in all of my clothes, especially this bikini.”

“You don’t have anything to worry about. After all, you’re not like Helen Masters with the build of a football player, and just how tall is Derrick?”

“About as tall as daddy, remember that daddy needs to duck a bit before entering a room. I don’t know why you mentioned Helen Masters, because she is nothing but a Neanderthal, intelligence and all. She writes with her left hand. Everybody knows that people of intelligence write with the proper hand.”

Elise laughed at the mental image of Helen as a true Neanderthal. “Yeah that is tall. How about. . .”

Deidre answered her Blackberry. “Mother texted me that we have a family meeting, something of some urgency has arisen. I wonder if Bill Gates will be coming over for dinner, maybe the upcoming liberal presidential hopeful, Barry Wicker. But then, the senator is always asking for money and daddy does like to contribute.”

Both stood up from their seats. Deidre’s head barely came up to Elise’s shoulder; they walked side by side into the house. “It’s a good thing you’re leading the way to the front door. I still need help to find your suite the house is so huge. The Fantasy Channel said next to the White House; it’s the largest house in the United States.”

“That’s because they only saw a small portion of the house. Be sure to ask for Reggie. He’ll take you to the front gate without a worry. That is unless you would rather walk?”

“Uh, no thanks, I don’t have the endurance to run the marathon yet.”

“Ta ta then Elise.” Deidre stood at the door waving goodbye to her friend. As soon as door closed “Alfred!”
===========

[dempsey]

I know you asked Jim, but I'll chime in with my own answer. We'll see if Jim agrees :)

I need to cram as much information as I can into the dialogue to show how the main character thinks.

Emphasis is mine.

I think that right there is your first problem. Don't use dialogue as a method to cram information into the reader's brain. It's meant to be a conversation, like what between two humans. Dialogue naturally communicates--it's what it's there for, to communicate between two people. Let it do what it does, and bear in mind what would need to be said between two people. For instance, two good friends wouldn't have to say "So my boyfriend, whose name is Reginald..." They would know these things.

Reading over your sample, folks don't usually talk like what you wrote.

There's some overwriting. Parse down your words. Make them work. You don't have to repeat names so much. Avoid adverbs for the sentences, make the words and actions of the character define how things are said.

For instance (and this isn't the best example but it's what I've got on short notice):

He replied tersely, "I'll be leaving now."

versus

His silverware clattered against his plate. "I'll be leaving now."

Also, the Frappuccino is a Starbucks drink. You can't get a Frappuccino anywhere else. It's like trying to get a BigMac at a Burger King.

Don't attack the reader with facts. Let the reader pick them up. Instead of repeating the fact that she's twenty-one twice (first with saying it, second with referencing the birthday party) you could just say something like "Nanny? At my age?" You can drop the specific age later, and you really only need to drop it once.

Also, you need to learn how to correctly punctuate dialogue. And you'll likely get more help in SYW.

Hope that helps :)

[BlueLucario]

I know you asked Jim, but I'll chime in with my own answer. We'll see if Jim agrees :)



Emphasis is mine.

I think that right there is your first problem. Don't use dialogue as a method to cram information into the reader's brain. It's meant to be a conversation, like what between two humans. Dialogue naturally communicates--it's what it's there for, to communicate between two people. Let it do what it does, and bear in mind what would need to be said between two people. For instance, two good friends wouldn't have to say "So my boyfriend, whose name is Reginald..." They would know these things.


Hope that helps :)

Dempsey took the words right out of my mouth. Curse you! Each quote there is just too tedious. Reread your quotes there and ask yourself if people really talk like this. If you have even the slightest of doubts then you need to change it.

I wanted to ask this question, but I didn't want to make a thread about this. I don't want to start a debate over something so unimportant.

I know someone on this forum made this statement : Keep in mind that not everyone can create interesting characters.

I am not stating names or where it is. You'll have to look it up yourself.

Do you think this statement is true? It sounded very discouraging, but she might be right. I spent 4 months thinking about that, and I never had the courage to ask that. :(

EDIT: Hey, not to be nitpicky but did you just call Calliopenjo, Jim?

[FennelGiraffe]

I have a bit of a problem.

First, what dempsey said. Too much information crammed in, and people don't talk like that.

Second, they're talking heads in a blank room. Until the very end, they don't have bodies attached to their necks. They don't interact with their environment. They don't even have an environment.

[dempsey]

EDIT: Hey, not to be nitpicky but did you just call Calliopenjo, Jim?

Uh, no? Where?

[smsarber]

Stephen King "Duma Key"
For all who are interested I just got back from a stay in the hospital. But I did survive my three year sober anniversary.

[James D. Macdonald]

But I did survive my three year sober anniversary.

Go, you!

----------

Now, Calliopenjo, the dialog question:

Don't try to make dialog do too much, and don't attempt to make one scene do too much.

All of the things you mention (showing narrow world-view, etc.) should come out organically from many scenes, as you grow the character. "I need for it to happen in a short span of time." For heaven's sake, why?

[Yeshanu]

Okay.

To be a writer you must be a reader.

What's the last book you read?

When?

It always floors me when I find out that the last book someone read was "in July" or last year or something...

I go to the library about every three weeks, and seldom come home with fewer than five books. Fiction or non-fiction, whatever takes my fancy.

Read Yes Man in preparation for the movie release, devoured a book called Under Pressure: Rescuing Childhood from the Culture of Hyper-Parenting, and laughed my way through British History for Dummies.

Tomorrow I think it's time to return those and get new ones... :D

[Perle_Rare]

I have a bit of a problem. I guess. The bottom line is that I've been told that the dialogue needs work. But the thing is, I need to cram as much information as I can into the dialogue to show how the main character thinks. To showcase her narrow view point.

1) Her opinion on gays and lesbians.
2) Her opinion on "lefties."
3) Her opinion about herself.

My problem, I need suggestions on where to start to fix it. I need for it to happen in a short span of time.


Calliopenjo,

I'll add to the other feedback you received. FennelGiraffe put her finger right on the issue. There's voices in a room but no personality (other than the one expressed through words) and no action. Most people in life express their opinions on things through their actions and reactions. From the first line of the book, you can show your MC's opinions of herself and her limitless wealth by the way she moves through her world. You don't, and shouldn't, need to do it through dialog. Otherwise, you end up with the "as you know Bob" syndrome. I get a bit of that from your sample dialog above. Very little of what is said between your two characters is really news to the other. It "feels" like you've put it there specifically for the reader's benefit and that's a big turn-off for many readers.

I'd also be curious to know whose point of view this scene was written in. I felt like I was hopping from one head to the other in terms of seeing the characters' unspoken thoughts. That was unsettling.

Just my 2cc's worth.

[Sailor Kenshin]

It always floors me when I find out that the last book someone read was "in July" or last year or something...

I go to the library about every three weeks, and seldom come home with fewer than five books. Fiction or non-fiction, whatever takes my fancy.

Read Yes Man in preparation for the movie release, devoured a book called Under Pressure: Rescuing Childhood from the Culture of Hyper-Parenting, and laughed my way through British History for Dummies.

Tomorrow I think it's time to return those and get new ones... :D

I'm too lazy to go to the liberry. That's what thrift stores and yard sales are for! :ROFL:

[DreamWeaver]

I'm too lazy to go to the liberry. That's what thrift stores and yard sales are for! :ROFL:I'm too unorganized to go to the library--no matter my good intentions, I eventually let a book go seriously overdue and have to pay big bucks. I think of the bookstore (thrift store/yard sale) as a library where you can take as long as you want to read, don't have to return the books and there are no late fees :D.

That said, I tend to have several books in various stages of being read at any one time. I am currently reading Le Vicomte de Bragelonne, Vol I (Dumas), A Night in the Lonesome October (Zelazny), and Saltation (Lee & Miller, online serialized first draft). I just finished The Story of Edgar Sawtelle (Wroblewski).

[BlueLucario]

I wanted to ask this question, but I didn't want to make a thread about this. I don't want to start a debate over something so unimportant.

I know someone on this forum made this statement : Keep in mind that not everyone can create interesting characters.

I am not stating names or where it is. You'll have to look it up yourself.

Do you think this statement is true? It sounded very discouraging, but she might be right. I spent 4 months thinking about that, and I never had the courage to ask that. :(



Hoping no one over looked this. :)

[euclid]

Hoping no one over looked this. :)

Hi Blue, Seems like a provocative thing to say. The way I look at it, I would find this encouraging. I know that I can, so if others can't then that gives me an edge.

;)

[euclid]

Stephen King "Duma Key"
For all who are interested I just got back from a stay in the hospital. But I did survive my three year sober anniversary.

Welcome back. I never noticed you were gone! And congrats on your 3 year anniversary.

What's that in your fingers in your avatar? It looks like an oyster.

Well done again. ;)

[CaroGirl]

Hoping no one over looked this. :)
Of course not everyone can create interesting characters. Heck, most people in this world struggle to write a coherent grocery list. Now, if you're talking about novelists aspiring to publication, yes, I agree there too. I might be one of them. I know I write well, but I might not write well enough. I might not write character well enough.

Why would you think that everyone who's ever tried to write a novel was able to write interesting characters?

[smsarber]

Welcome back. I never noticed you were gone! And congrats on your 3 year anniversary.

What's that in your fingers in your avatar? It looks like an oyster.

Well done again. ;)
Jellyfish. We were in Florida a week before the storms hit. (Of course, the jelly was no longer alive, but it made for a cool pic.)

[BlueLucario]

I don't know. The statement sounded to me like this person can't make an interesting character and probably never will.

Wow...I knew that was a dumb question.

[General Tso]

The last book I finished is called Land of Mist and Snow. You should all check it out. I finished it 2 weeks ago.
The book I'm in the middle of right now is Roth's The Plot Against America.

I'll let that serve as an introduction - I'm new ... to posting anyway. I have my first big question and there is no one's opinion I value more for this than Uncle Jim's. Everyone else is of course more than welcome etc. etc.

My plot outline follows 5 or 6 viewpoint characters. They are all connected in various ways at various points in the sequence of events. As I was constructing this, I thought perhaps I should write every scene that follows Character A through to the end of the story. Then I would write every scene that follows Character B through to the end of the story, excepting the scenes involving both characters, which I would have already written. Then I would proceed with Character C and so on until I essentially have 5 or 6 complete stories. The final procedure would of course be a matter of weaving them back together into a single narrative.

The reasoning behind this is that I could maintain a more continuous thought process and give each viewpoint character my full dedication. Celtic knotwork for the obsessive compulsive, no? Does this sound like a potentially rewarding strategy or am I setting myself up for complications?

[Yeshanu]

I don't know. The statement sounded to me like this person can't make an interesting character and probably never will.

Wow...I knew that was a dumb question.

If someone thinks they can't make an interesting character, then they never will. Like any craft, writing is not something that you either can do or you can't. It's something you develop and work at and get better at, but if you give up at the outset, you'll never get better.

As far as "dumb questions" go, that was far from dumb. (I won't generalize as some do and say there are no dumb questions, but I will say if you don't already know the answer, then a question isn't dumb...)

[smsarber]

Uncle Jim, I have a burning question. I think I may be on to something, or maybe it's just me. Okay, when you write, do you have the "inner voice"? I don't mean your normal narrative voice, the one you hear when you read something, but kind of an outsider's voice. One telling you the story. I get that when I'm in a good flow. I get it when I'm not, but it doesn't seem as strong. I'm not saying that kind of thing is an essential part of writing, but I think it may be an essential part of MY writing. Anyone else have similar quirks?

[Sailor Kenshin]

Uncle Jim, I have a burning question. I think I may be on to something, or maybe it's just me. Okay, when you write, do you have the "inner voice"? I don't mean your normal narrative voice, the one you hear when you read something, but kind of an outsider's voice. One telling you the story. I get that when I'm in a good flow. I get it when I'm not, but it doesn't seem as strong. I'm not saying that kind of thing is an essential part of writing, but I think it may be an essential part of MY writing. Anyone else have similar quirks?

Yes.

For me, the story is already there. It tells me, I don't tell it.

[Calliopenjo]

At the risk of sounding like I have MPD, I hear different voices in my head telling me their story.

[James D. Macdonald]

...but kind of an outsider's voice. One telling you the story.

Nope. I get to see a movie, and I describe the movie as it unfolds.

[smsarber]

The problem when I "see" it, I tend to "tell, vs. show". So I have sort of trained myself to hear. Not always, and it is no tried and true operation. I guess I sometimes try to visualize aspects like a documentary.

[RJK]

Welcome General Tso. I love your chicken. I have a question about your one POV character at a time strategy. What do you do when they interact? I assume your characters talk to each other.
I think you're complicating things more than they need to be. Write the story as it unfolds, according to your outline.

[smsarber]

Nope. I get to see a movie, and I describe the movie as it unfolds.
I want to add, I understand that there are no rules as far as the creative process goes. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And what works for Stephen King may not work for Steven Sarber. But if I could only plug a USB port into my head and download the images and words in my mind, wow, then we'd have something.

[General Tso]

Thanks for the comments RJK.

My POV characters do indeed interact. In fact, I only have a couple minor (non-POV) characters so far. So most of the time, my POV characters are interacting with each other. But I'm not very concerned about that aspect of my strategy. I will select the POV character based on who has the most interesting view for that scene. As a reference for me and anyone else who is interested, I am a big fan of George RR Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series (A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings etc.). They contain an enormous cast of characters including multiple POVs who interact.

However, I am still apprehensive about linear vs. character order of writing. Thank you for your vote of confidence in favor of the standard linear timeline order of writing.

[Judg]

GT, I think you would still find it useful to write an outline of the story for each POV character. I found it a helpful method to make sure they were acting in character, and to see more clearly what their reactions and initiatives would be as circumstances changed.

[Ophelia]

Hi,

I was hoping to read all this thread before I contributed as I didn't want to have to open discussions that have already been thoroughly explored.

I have been desperate for advice on *how to write a novel* and was trawling the Internet for anything that would help

I stumbled on this website and Learning to write with Uncle Jim (and his many friends) and have managed to read up to page 33 - I intend on continuing my journey through this epic thread but was becoming impatient so could not hold back any longer from introducing myself to this fabulous community.

I am 39 and have always wanted to be a writer - unfortunately the minor problem holding me back was that I didn't write anything...mainly as I was convinced no one would like it. Anyway, to cut a long story short, I had an experience which enabled me to get over that and start my first book (which has haunted me for years)

It has taken a year to write and now I have sent it off to a (recommended) editor at

http://www.writersworkshop.co.uk/ (at no small cost as I am sure you are all aware)

The editor is Emma Darwin http://www.emmadarwin.com/

I am expecting her report at the end of next week.....

Since I have begun to read this thread I think I know what Ms Darwin will say about my precious labour of love...

However I now know the best way to learn how to write a book is to write one, so the sequel has started. I need to firm up my BIC and I would like to say the best piece of advice, or the bit which is the most useful to me at the moment is 'write, write anything but just write'. Whilst writing my book I agonized over practically every page but now I know I can write anything (cos it's going to be revised anyway - right?) and the important bit is those squiggly black things on the screen.

I intend to write this sequel until I reach The End and then I will put it in a drawer for month (which is effectively where my first novel sits)

When my first book returns from the editor and a willing beta reader (I never knew that term) then no doubt re writing will begin in earnest.

Anyway, enough of me, I have tired myself out with my first post - I just wanted a moment of heartfelt sycophancy to say thank you very much for everything I have learnt so far on this thread.

[Ophelia]

it was page 133 not 33 .....

[RJK]

Welcome Ophelia. I too, stumbled upon Uncle Jim's thread, and found it invaluable. I have compared it to a graduate course in novel writing. Read the whole thread. You won't be disappointed. (You can probably skim over the silly arguments). It seems you’ve already learned the first lesson BIC. You can’t be a writer if you don’t write.
Good luck with your novel.

[euclid]

Welcome Ophelia. I too, stumbled upon Uncle Jim's thread, and found it invaluable. I have compared it to a graduate course in novel writing. Read the whole thread. You won't be disappointed. (You can probably skim over the silly arguments). It seems you’ve already learned the first lesson BIC. You can’t be a writer if you don’t write.
Good luck with your novel.

What is BIC?

[RJK]

Butt In Chair

[RJK]

I tried to edit the above reply but I think I broke the program.

BIC is Butt In Chair. Sit your butt in you chair in front of your keyboard and start typing.

[smsarber]

And how!

[CaroGirl]

I have tried to put all my ifs, ands and buts in a chair. However, what works best is putting butt in chair. :)

[RJK]

sorry

[smsarber]

Too bad I usually end up sitting on my brain. Maybe I should try standing on my head.;)

[Calliopenjo]

Hi there everyone,

The one thing I hate is thinking of a title for a story. Is there a magic formula, system, method, etc. for thinking of a title? I'm stuck to be honest and my working title is not too attractive, based on accumulated comments.

Help?

[Yeshanu]

Wait until you've finished the story. My understanding is that often titles get changed before publication anyhow. I know that's true for articles, at least. I wouldn't worry so much about the title as I would about getting the story written.

[smsarber]

Waiting is good. But it can come early, too. Write down your ideas as they come and look for the one that catches your intrest as if you were in a bookstore browsing. That's how I came up with "A Birthday Suicide". That title popped in to my head and it was like, "Wow! If I saw that on a shelf I would at least be checking out the synopsis on back to see what it was all about." That's my two cents.

[bsolah]

The one thing I hate is thinking of a title for a story. Is there a magic formula, system, method, etc. for thinking of a title? I'm stuck to be honest and my working title is not too attractive, based on accumulated comments.

I usually give my titles "working titles" for the duration of drafting it and that, and then once it's done, change it.

[Yeshanu]

Waiting is good. But it can come early, too. Write down your ideas as they come and look for the one that catches your intrest as if you were in a bookstore browsing. That's how I came up with "A Birthday Suicide". That title popped in to my head and it was like, "Wow! If I saw that on a shelf I would at least be checking out the synopsis on back to see what it was all about." That's my two cents.


I like that idea, too, Steven. Thanks.

[Ophelia]

My experience was as described by bsolah - I had a working title - which was the name of the POV character and when the final chapters were revealed to me I had a better idea as to what the title should be. I took a traditional Irish folk song (my story is based in Ireland) and used an appropriate line from that (By the Rising of the Moon)

It did take some time to come up with that idea and at one point I even spent valuable writing time playing (unsuccessfully) with a title generator I found through Google.

Even now I suspect that if it ever went to be published then it would probably change.

My WIP title is 'Lily's story' as I had a false start which included a character called Lily - Lily has now revealed herself as a different character called Siobhan and the story is no longer based around her but I am not too concerned at this early stage. It will stay as Lily's Story until:

1) Something else occurs to me
2) I come to The End and have to change it

It may be that a title will will pop into my head such as smsarber's A Birthday Suicide (cool title) - hopefully it will.

Perhaps also your beta readers may have some ideas? What kind of titles already exist in the genre you are writing? Is there a theme? Is it best to use those as a template - or to do something completely different? When you are browsing in a bookshop what kind of titles jump out at you? What makes you think 'I really want to read that?' What kind of books are on your bookshelf? Which have the best titles and why?

Perhaps spend sometime in a bookshop browsing titles and see what happens......in fact I think I might just do that when the WIP is finished...

[Chris Grey]

Hi there everyone,

The one thing I hate is thinking of a title for a story. Is there a magic formula, system, method, etc. for thinking of a title? I'm stuck to be honest and my working title is not too attractive, based on accumulated comments.

Help?

Pick up a copy of Hamlet. Close your eyes. Flip through it and blindly put your finger down on a page. Open your eyes. Where your finger is pointing is your title.

And.. backing up a little. Blue, every character has a story to tell that'll break your heart. If they're alive or ever have been, they're interesting... from the right perspective.

Callio, the easiest way to get across what your character thinks is by having her open her mouth. What we say and how we say it says everything about us. If there's no way to get it across through her actions or speech, and it really is vital to the story that the reader know this bit of exposition, well, if showing is awkward, just tell. Keith Snyder cannot be linked to enough (http://journalscape.com/keithsnyder/2006-12-19-12:05/):
I’m pro-tell. I like being told when it’s the most efficient way to get a piece of information across, or there’s some other reason it’s a better choice than show...

Nothing’s inherently wrong with telling; nothing’s inherently wrong with showing. Know the difference, and choose according to whether you need to engage or inform at this particular moment in the narrative...There are no rules in writing (You do not talk about Write Club). I mean, yeah, there are and people will tell you them, but they're more like guidelines. Do whatever you need to do to write and perfect your story.

[euclid]

Keith Snyder cannot be linked to enough (http://journalscape.com/keithsnyder/2006-12-19-12:05/):


Everything you said in your post was brilliant, Chris, but the best part was Keith Snyder.

Tell everybody about KEITH SNYDER

[Sailor Kenshin]

Hi there everyone,

The one thing I hate is thinking of a title for a story. Is there a magic formula, system, method, etc. for thinking of a title? I'm stuck to be honest and my working title is not too attractive, based on accumulated comments.

Help?

Yes!

And I can sell you the secret for a mere ten thousand dollars!

[sharla]

I wait for the title to come to me. I had a working title for a long time, then A Little Salty came to me by a phrase one of my characters kept saying. Hell, it may change again if it ever gets to a publisher. It may be The Properties of Duct Tape before it's all said and done.

[HConn]

Hi there everyone,

The one thing I hate is thinking of a title for a story. Is there a magic formula, system, method, etc. for thinking of a title? I'm stuck to be honest and my working title is not too attractive, based on accumulated comments.

Help?

If you can't find a title within the story itself, you can always go to one of the sites that host searchable copies of Shakespeare's plays. Search his plays for any occurrence of a word that is prominent in your book. If that doesn't help, try Yeats or T.S. Elliot.

Good luck.

[RJK]

Another good source for titles is bible passages This site (http://www.biblegateway.com/)has a search function. It will find the every passage that contains the keyword you enter.

[Calliopenjo]

Thank you for your help. I would have never imagined Shakespeare reaching beyond the grave to lend his hand.:Hug2:

[cooeedownunder]

I can't wait to get to the end of this thread. So I thought I would post, if not for any other reason, than to let Jim know I’m totally enthralled by this thread. I can’t help wondering if he’s at the other end, where ever it ends. I thought about cheating, and just jumping to the end, but that would ruin the journey.

This thread in itself could make a great story. Am I learning? Well, yeah. I’ve managed to rewrite my first chapter, taking into account plot, theme, characters, pace and well, I can’t keep up with all the things I need to do.

I’m sitting here in 2004, and have spent the past month getting to page 60. Maybe by the time I’m well, gosh, how long does it take to get to the end of all these posts, I will get to see this post, and I guess by then, I will have another year of reading to do to get to the end. There is a great deal of suggestions, thoughts, and information that I am sure that those who started reading this prior, would have learnt a hell of a lot by the time they get to the end.

My challenge is to get those two hours of writing in a day in between getting to the end of this thread.

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Uncle Jim,

I get told this a lot "Your dialog is stilted." I finally looked it up and the translation to that is stiff. But if the dialog is supposed to be stiff or stilted (which I'm assuming is the new age lingo) do I change it anyway?

The dialog is supposed to be very formal. Cannot instead of can't, I am instead I'm and so on. Am I nitpicking by ignoring this and thinking that whoever it is just doesn't understand?

I don't mean to sound rude, crude, obnoxious, or a know-it-all, but I need to know.

:Shrug:

[dempsey]

Hi Uncle Jim,

I get told this a lot "Your dialog is stilted." I finally looked it up and the translation to that is stiff. But if the dialog is supposed to be stiff or stilted (which I'm assuming is the new age lingo) do I change it anyway?

The dialog is supposed to be very formal. Cannot instead of can't, I am instead I'm and so on. Am I nitpicking by ignoring this and thinking that whoever it is just doesn't understand?

I don't mean to sound rude, crude, obnoxious, or a know-it-all, but I need to know.

:Shrug:

I'll tackle this again, since I think I'm one of the folk who called your dialogue stilted.

Formal dialogue is not necessarily stilted. And stilted dialogue is not necessarily formal.

Even if people speak very formally, avoiding conjunctions, using five-dollar-words when a ninety-nine-cent-word would have sufficed, etc, they still need to sound natural. When I read your dialogue few pages back--and it may have changed since then--the characters seemed less like real people and more like caricatures of the hoity-toity upper crust.

Best piece of advice I can give for you is to go where people would speak formally and listen. Take notes.

[smsarber]

Also speak it out loud to yourself. If it doesn't sound real to your own ears, it isn't natural. Even the most proper dialogue should sound real. Dialogue functions to give the most accurate insight into your character. When the reader reads your dialogue he/she should be able to imagine themselves as an eavesdropper listening in on the conversation.

[allenparker]

Also speak it out loud to yourself.

Good advice. I also use the "Read" function on my pdf reader. It reads my work horribly, but I get a better feel for how other people read what I write.

[euclid]

Also speak it out loud to yourself. If it doesn't sound real to your own ears, it isn't natural. Even the most proper dialogue should sound real. Dialogue functions to give the most accurate insight into your character. When the reader reads your dialogue he/she should be able to imagine themselves as an eavesdropper listening in on the conversation.

You've got to be kidding! The neighbours already think I'm mad, sitting at this desk all day long. If I start talking to myself, they'll send for the men in white coats.

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/music008.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

[smsarber]

"We all go a little mad sometimes..." Anthony Perkins, "Psycho"

[smsarber]

Here's an example that doesn't even have to be read aloud to see the problems. Imagine the characters as seniors at a posh, expensive boarding school:

April saw it was Mike calling. She took a breath, pushed send, and put the phone to her ear.
"Hello, Mike."
"April, I just heard that you are thinking of withdrawing from school. I believe that would be a very bad mistake."
"But I cannot handle the teasing any longer. I have to leave."
**
Okay, pretty terrible. But let's see if I can make it more convincing:

April looked at her phone. It was Mike, calling, no doubt, to convince her to stay. She pushed send and put the phone to her ear.
"Hi, Mike."
"Hi, uh, I think we need to talk, April."
"I'm not going to change my mind."
"Think about it. If you quit school your parents will kill you! Or at least lock you up for the next year. We've only got four months to go until graduation. Besides, you don't want Piper and Maggie to win, do you?"
"But they tease me all the time, just cause I'm not as pretty, or as popular."
"So what? Let them tease. They're just jealous because you have a family that actually cares about you. And you have friends. All they have are sidekicks."
"Friends like you, Mike?"
"Yeah, friends like me."
**

Maybe not the best dialogue ever written, but instead of stiff it has life. And not because it has more detail, but because it sounds like something teenagers would say.

That's all the pearly nuggets I have for now.

[euclid]

Her 'phone rang. It was Mike. She put the instrument to her ear.
"April?"
"Yeah, Mike."
"What're you doin'?"
"Packing."
"You can't leave."
"I can't take any more, Mike."
"They're idiots. Just ignore them."
"That's easy for you to say."
"You can stick it out to graduation. It's just a few months."
"No, I can't. I've thought about it and I just can't."
"But you can't leave."
"Why not?"
"Who else laughs at my jokes?"

[smsarber]

Showin' me up, huh? Good job!:ROFL:

[Telstar]

Her 'phone rang. It was Mike. She put the instrument to her ear.
"April?"
"Yeah, Mike."
"What're you doin'?"
"Packing."
"You can't leave."
"I can't take any more, Mike."
"They're idiots. Just ignore them."
"That's easy for you to say."
"You can stick it out to graduation. It's just a few months."
"No, I can't. I've thought about it and I just can't."
"But you can't leave."
"Why not?"
"Who else laughs at my jokes?"

Just add a couple of notations and it would be perfect.

[bsolah]

Her 'phone rang. It was Mike. She put the instrument to her ear.
"April?"
"Yeah, Mike."
"What're you doin'?"
"Packing."
"You can't leave."
"I can't take any more, Mike."
"They're idiots. Just ignore them."
"That's easy for you to say."
"You can stick it out to graduation. It's just a few months."
"No, I can't. I've thought about it and I just can't."
"But you can't leave."
"Why not?"
"Who else laughs at my jokes?"

Sure, it's good dialogue but not for what the purpose we're talking about. You can't distinguish these people as formal speaking yuppies from any old teenager.

[smsarber]

That was why I wrote mine the way I did. Of course it wasn't a perfect example, but fitting to serve its purpose.

[smsarber]

Hey Uncle Jim, do you remember the book I was working on a year and a half ago, "The Silvertone"? It's set in New Hampshire, and you gave me some tips on it. I'm doing a complete rewrite of it, and was wondering if there is a place I can find out a more accurate depiction of a New England-style dialect. I mean, if it was a book set in Tennessee I might use wording like "Y'all", or "dagummit". Or maybe average American style speach is fitting. I've never been anywhere in New England, so I just don't know.

[Yeshanu]

I'd suggest that you advertise on the boards for a beta reader who comes from New England, and ask that person to comment on the reality of the dialogue. You might also look up a few movies set in New England, and analyze them for dialogue.

[smsarber]

Good idea, Yeshanu. I've never considered using a Beta before, mainly because I can't afford to pay someone. But it's something for consideration. I want to write the best fiction I can, I don't want my readers to feel cheated.

[Yeshanu]

PAY for a beta? :Wha:

Read the faqs, then post here (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=30). :) This board has everything!

[smsarber]

I guess I was mis-informed! Thank you!

[dempsey]

PAY for a beta? :Wha:

Read the faqs, then post here (http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h190/Yeshanu/BlackForestCake.jpg). :) This board has everything!

Damnit! Why'd you spoil it, Yeshanu? We coulda gotten paid!

;)

[Calliopenjo]

Hi guys,

If I posted something here, not that i haven't done so before, about 2500 words worth would you give me an honest opinion? I went to SYW and posted there and I realize that authors are busy, sorry rambling, anyway, I seem to get only one view point over there. Wanted to know before making myself look like an idiot.

[Yeshanu]

Sorry about the link, folks. I didn't realized I'd linked to my birthday cake. ;)

It's fixed now.

Calliopenjo, have you tried asking for crits in the SYW Starbucks thread? That often gets a few replies.

[smsarber]

Thanks again. I should have looked in the Beta forum a long time ago. I have no idea what I was thinking of, but it seems like somewhere, when I first joined these boards, I read of someone paying Beta. So I never thought to look for one.:Guitar:

[Calliopenjo]

Hi guys,

Thank you for leading me to Starbucks, but I looked for it and I didn't find it. I'll just have to be patient then I suppose. Thanks anyway.

[smsarber]

Not 100% sure, but I think Yeshanu may have meant The Sandbox. Calli, check that one out, it may be what you are looking for.

[Melenka]

In re: titles. I asked the friend who did a beta pass on the first several chapters (English profs are brutal, but effective, betas!) and she began tossing out ideas. So maybe asking someone who isn't so close to the work for what they would call it could at least give you the working title. My working title was "story" for about 6 months.

As for dialogue, I have found it most useful to listen carefully to the sort of people you're trying to portray. Figure out where they hang out, and park yourself nearby. My MC almost never uses contractions, but it's by choice. He learned English in his teens and he likes the way the language sounds. He doesn't use much slang in any of the other languages he speaks, either. When he has to assume an American accent, the contractions come out - but his sentence structure is still slightly formal because that's a character trait. All that is a long way of saying you should know why your character speaks the way they do.

[James D. Macdonald]

I'm doing a complete rewrite of it, and was wondering if there is a place I can find out a more accurate depiction of a New England-style dialect.


Captains Courageous by Rudyard Kipling. But you have to read it with a Brit accent to get the Yankee to come out right.

[smsarber]

All right, ol' chap, Bob's-yer-uncle...

[smsarber]

Can somebody help me? I can't figure out how to correctly insert a header in OpenOffice. I can do the header and page numbers just fine, but I need to have them start on page two. I know how to do it in MS Word, but I can't find the way to do it on the OpenOffice program.:Hammer:

[James D. Macdonald]

The tech help board (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=81) here might give you an answer.

[Yeshanu]

Hi guys,

Thank you for leading me to Starbucks, but I looked for it and I didn't find it. I'll just have to be patient then I suppose. Thanks anyway.

The SYW Starbucks (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88154)...

[smsarber]

Thanks Uncle Jim, and side note to Yeshanu; I put a link to a story in Starbucks. Cool idea, and though the initial question wasn't mine, thanks for the link.

[Calliopenjo]

I posted my first story there and hopefully I'll have more critiques to lead me the right way. I swear my head has taken a vacation. I've been looking at the story and I see (awevlidnvzvlk v). Laugh and giggle. This will definitely help. Thanks

[smsarber]

awevlidnvzvlk v ?

A
Wandering
Elephant
Verily
Lolly-gags
In
Dreamy
Nuances,
Vacationing;
Zimbabwe.
Vacationing;
Lakeside
Katmandu

Voila

[Calliopenjo]

"A
Wandering
Elephant
Verily
Lolly-gags
In
Dreamy
Nuances,
Vacationing;
Zimbabwe.
Vacationing;
Lakeside
Katmandu

Voila"

Not quite, but thanks. I needed a good laugh.

[smsarber]

That's what I'm here for;).

[Calliopenjo]

Uncle Jim,

Does a story ALWAYS have to have a happy ending? Can it have a sad ending as well? I've been contemplating both issues and could do both but I can't decide which one. I asked someone else the other day, and joking or not couldn't tell, was surprised that I would leave the other behind therefore having a sad ending.

Am I making sense?

Details: The basis of the story is that a rich girl who doesn't like anything different. She doesn't like homosexuals and lefties for the most part. They're not normal. She inherits a house from a grandmother she never knew. Through the course of time, she discovers seven mirrors which transport her to a fantasy world. While in the fantasy world her views change. At the end of the story she is transported back to her world where she can either be transported back to Fantasy World after a stint reuniting with her other half, or she commits suicide because she feels she never belonged anywhere therefore never reuniting with her lover.

[smsarber]

Plenty of stories have, ahem, sad, endings. Read "Cell" by Stephen King, for one example. Some have almost no endings at all, they just kind of stop. But they give enough information so that you can decide what happens for yourself.

[bsolah]

Calli, I'm at the point of plotting where I'm working out my ending too. Endings don't really have to be happy or sad. They're kind of like characters, in that happy endings need to be flawed and sad endings need to have some likable and sympathetic qualities.

But I think you need to at least resolve something, whilst not needing to tie everything up.

[Yeshanu]

Just be aware that readers, especially fantasy readers, tend to prefer "happy" endings. That doesn't mean that everything has to be perfect at the end, but that good should triumph over evil. And I would categorically advise against having your MC die, especially by committing suicide.

I can tell you that personally, if I pick up a book off the shelf at a bookstore, I read the last little bit first. And if the MC should happen to be dead at the end, I put it back without reading further. If I gathered that the MC had killed him/herself, I'd probably never read anything by that author again, due to past personal trauma. Once in real life is enough--I want my fantasy to be fantasy.

But that doesn't mean you have to give your MC everything she wants. How about having her remain and come to terms with living in the real world, rather than having her returned to her fantasy world? To me, that bittersweet sort of ending, where we have to grow up and face reality, beats the Cinderella-esque "Happily ever after," and the dystopian, "Death and despair," hands down. That's the real meaning of the last words in Tolkein's Lord of the Rings.

"Well, I'm home."

For better or worse, the adventure is over, and now I have to live the rest of my life in the world I used to know so well. But I'm not the same person...

[OremLK]

It's often considered a big mistake to end a story with the protagonist committing suicide. I personally agree with Yeshanu--I wouldn't read another book by the author. It's one of those endings where you're apt to make the reader angry at you, as Uncle Jim puts it, and that's always a bad thing. It's also been done to death (no pun intended).

"Sad" or tragic endings are okay, it just needs to be the right tragic ending. If some of your protagonists die, okay--but I'd advise against killing all of them, and for the ones that do die, there should be a good reason for their death(s). Most people care about a novel because they care what happens to the characters within it. If there are no characters left that they care about, why should the story matter at all?

[James D. Macdonald]

Does a story ALWAYS have to have a happy ending?

No. A story needn't have a happy ending. What it must have is a satisfying ending. At once surprising and inevitable.

[smsarber]

Yeshanu, I would like to express my condolences to you. I have known a few friends who took that dark road, and I feel for what you are saying.
That said, my first book is titled "A Birthday Suicide," and the impression is that the protag will end his life because of his involvement in crime, drugs, and murder. But he has redeeming qualities, also. And he (rightly) doesn't die in the end. I will not give away any more than that, but if you did read my book I would sincerely hope you wouldn't use that as a basis for all of my writing. That particular book is more of a drama. Most of what I am interested in, and what I write is horror, with good kicking evil's butt! Anyway, that's all I wanted to say.

[James D. Macdonald]

The Sorrows of Young Werther (Goethe) ends with the protagonist committing suicide.

All Quiet on the Western Front (Remarque) ends with the first-person narrator getting killed.

[pictopedia]

@Calliopenjo

triggered by a subject earlier on I've been throwing myself head over heels into the study of how to construct a good (=satisfying) story. I found that in the area of scriptwriting, there are strong opinions on how to craft a story that works with audiences. (With the huge budgets involved, they have no choice but to bring it to something of a formula). While there is dispute about the rigidness of that approach, many (including myself now) seem to agree on the basic elements that need to be present in a story in order for it to be liked by a larger audience. Therefore a lot of novel writer also read the books and take the classes of Vogler, Truby, Kin, Snyder and others to learn on the elements and plot points of a good story.

Based on my findings I would say: its not so much about what kind of ending but if it is true to the inner and outer story arc you have developed over the course of the book. In the beginning of most successful movies (and as far as I have found in my research, an astounding amount of successful books as well), you establish two story lines an "inner story" (the character development), and an "outer story" (something that actually happens, the main protagonist doing something fascinating or cool). In good films or books, these two are somehow related. An interesting example that adheres to that principle, even though you wouldn't expect it is the Indiana Jones film where Indy meets his father. Right at the beginning, while the outer story is established (him fighting the Nazis etc), the inner story line is set up (him not being able to forgive his father). Throughout the entire film Indy eventually learns to forgive his father and rebond with him. A vital element to close that development arc at the end is to setup an achievable element at the beginning. For example: for Wall-E, the main goal is not to win Eve's love, but to hold her hand. At the end, he achieves that goal and the audience is satisfied.

Your ending should fit to the inner and outer conflicts you have established. And then, at the end she should achieve her beginning goal. Maybe at the beginning you made her write a diary in which she confesses that she is lonely, in spite all the money and desperately longs for a true friend. In her adventures, she finally finds one (male or female, doesn't matter,), but that friend turns out to be gay. Maybe she even discovers she is gay herself? The idea of "going through mirrors" throughout the book is a nice "outer arc" story echoing the theme of internal transition. Which side of the mirror is the "right" one?). If she dies at the late end of the book it is then still a satisfying ending, because you have closed the inner arc and shown her reach her initially stated goal (find a friend), and change (transform to an open minded person). Even if you never mention that diary ever again throughout the entire story, even if she dies and the last chapter shows the diary getting thrown into the trash, or lies in the street, and the wind opens it to the confession page (where it is read by another girls walking by etc) it is still a satisfying (and nicely sad) conclusion, because she reached her goal before she died and her sprit (and the books spirit), come to a rest.

[pictopedia]

...That thing with the diary is just an example based on what you described about your book. There are probably a lot more appropriate things you could set up. Maybe she wishes she has blond hair at the beginning (at the start she is some kind of rich, nasty arrogant, superficial prom queen, right?), then, through all those mirror transitions, her hair does get light (and beautiful and wavy etc), but then it is not important to her any more, because she has outgrown her superficiality and she rejects the crown and gives it to another beautiful (but gay) girl that got kicked out of school and would have actually deserved it. (and in the mirror world, she is the real queen, anyway)

Uh. For some reason I find it easier to think myself into your book, than into my own. Damn.

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Pictopedia (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/member.php?u=23485)

Thank you for the insight. I just didn't want to fall into the same mundane same old same old thing. I'm not necessarily looking for a way out of that, it's me thinking what kind of ending would be appropriate for my story.

[pictopedia]

oh, ok, sorry about that. Didn't mean to intrude on your story. These rules I found are just a guideline to avoid common mistakes. I guess sort of like the salt in cooking. The dish itself should be original in some way of course.

[Calliopenjo]

You weren't intruding you were voicing your opinion. I thank you for that. I have you know it's because of you that I have an alternative ending in mind. I just have to think of a way of writing it. By the way, available for a critique? You seem to understand my story, at least the basis.

[James D. Macdonald]

I appreciate all opinions.

Remember:

"There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays,
"And every single one of them is right!"

[pictopedia]

calliopenjo, oh, thats great, you are getting closer to your solution. Fantastic.
Sure, I am always available ;) No, seriously. You need a beta reader? I can do that.

Why are there only nine and sixty ways to make a tribal lay and not nine and seventy and five?

[dempsey]

Why are there only nine and sixty ways to make a tribal lay and not nine and seventy and five?

Because then that would be four-and-eighty ways ;)

[smsarber]

Call me dense, but what the hell is a tribal lay?

[FennelGiraffe]

Why are there only nine and sixty ways to make a tribal lay and not nine and seventy and five?

Because nine and seventy and five doesn't scan.

Call me dense, but what the hell is a tribal lay?

A narrative poem.

In the Neolithic Age (http://www.kipling.org.uk/poems_neolithic.htm)

[smsarber]

That explains why my poetry never made sense!! It was six, twenty-nine. Ha-ha.

[Dale Emery]

Call me dense, but what the hell is a tribal lay?

My sister.

[batgirl]

"There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays,
"And every single one of them is right!"
I was listening to a panel discussion at an sf convention once (VCon 12?), and the panelists recited those lines in unison. My recollection is that they were Samuel Delaney, Judith Merril, Mildred Downey Broxon and possibly Theodore Sturgeon. It was pretty cool.
-Barbara

[MumblingSage]

Because nine and seventy and five doesn't scan.



A narrative poem.

In the Neolithic Age (http://www.kipling.org.uk/poems_neolithic.htm)

So that's where it's from! I always wondered.

And I see it's made it's way into your signature :)

[IceCreamEmpress]

My sister.

Your sister's been Kipling again?

[smsarber]

9 & 60= 69. Kipling was a perv!! Never knew that!

[Alphabeter]

He was quite a pickler.

[Ophelia]

Good morning, fellow writers,

As I said in my last post I had paid for an editorial assessment through a UK company (Writer's Workshop) of my recently completed first novel. The report has finally been returned. I thought I would share a few salient points with you. Mainy because I think some of the points are useful for new writers generally. Can I add that my book, By the Rising of the Moon, was written and sent off before I found this glorious thread so it does reiterate much of Uncle Jim's words of wisdom.

1) Seriously overworked - too many words describing the same thing makes it weak (put a gun to the head of each word and make it justify its existence - if I remember rightly from a previous quote of Uncle Jim's)

'He took an involuntary sharp intake of breath’ or 'He gasped'. The first has lots of words which does not convey a sudden, startled action. The second might not be the best replacement but it does convey more sense of action than the first.

Another example of my over worked writing with a plethora of redundant words: 'a sharp pointed pain began to stab his right temple, its rhythm regular and insistent'.

2) Think very, very carefully about using flashbacks - the editor was 'terminally confused' during a complex flashback scene. As she points out, if it she was a reader she would have no doubt stopped reading. And possbily thrown the book across the room in frustration.

3) If you are using one POV make sure the reader cares about what happens to them. This will keep them turning the page. Ensure they are well rounded. We need to know what makes them tick. Just telling the story throught their eyes is not enough.

4) If using one POV try using psychic distance to give a framework. Otherwise it can seem that the POV is using text book language when giving information about events. (my story is based on true events and it is necessary for the story that certain details are made clear).

5) Don't have too many characters. Get rid of those you don't need. Merge them if necessary.

6) Ensure there is texture of the character's every day life. (hair, clothes, transport, food, drink, etc). My novel is historical fiction so the point is to ensure the reader feels they are in that period. Another issue for me is social conventions of the time (Using surnames instead of first names, raising one's hat to women etc)

7) Read it aloud. Then errors in word usage, punctuation etc will become clearer. (Another tip from Uncle Jim I believe). To quote from my editor:

'the brain processes words for reading aloud in a different place from where it deals with words you’re reading silently, and it’s amazing what you find. It works best, I find, if you don’t stop to fiddle, just make a quick mark in the margin about what kind of trouble you’ve spotted, and keep going. That way you reproduce as nearly as possible the experience of a reader coming to the novel for the first time.'

8) Punctuation. Use it conventionally. Use it carefully. Check every comma, full stop, capital letter etc. A publisher wants to see a well polished novel. It shows the writer cares about what they have written. Don't assume you are using it correctly. Find a Grammar Beta reader (school teachers are notoriously good at this). An example of one of my sins is to connect two sentences with a comma.

9) Use words as they should be used. For example I tend to use 'may' when the word should be 'might'. 'Expectedly' should be 'expectantly.'

That's the gist of it. I have recovered from sobbing in a corner after receiving the report about my precious, tortuous, 100 000 words. Now I will take another of Uncle Jim's top tips and starting writing it again from the very beginning......

Excuse me, I need to go and BIC.....

[pictopedia]

smsarber, your picture keeps changing. Where's the fish?

[smsarber]

smsarber, your picture keeps changing. Where's the fish?
The jelly went on to that great big ocean in the sky. I get bored sometimes, so I change my sig and avatar. My wife pokes fun because I change my desktop background 1-2 times a week. Last week was outer space, then Jennifer Aniston; now Rachel Leigh Cook. Looking for ways to keep myself "un-bored" keeps me writing. Being 32 and on full disability means I have too f*****g much time at home. Cabin fever is real, folks... beware!! But hey, glad you noticed. Besides, this one is a very good pic. It shows my haughty-yet-humble side!!:tongue

[pictopedia]

I think we all have something like that (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4421786.stm)inside our heads. Enormous rooms, rooms after rooms, full with interesting stuff and cool apparatuses. Just go there more often when you get the cabin fever ;) (I only regret about my bunker that nobody can come to visit)

Oh, and give me some of that extra time you got. I need to finish that novel of mine ;)

[smsarber]

I could send it to ya, but you wouldn't want to travel down the path I did to get the free time. Comas are not fun, despite what everybody says!!

[Yeshanu]

Ophelia, it does sound like you got a decent critique for your money. And good for you for taking it seriously and doing something about it. You'd be surprised how many people ask for critiques when they're looking for praise. Go you!

[smsarber]

Praise! Praise! Praise! Oh, wait... that doesn't help me. But I have been guilty of looking for praise. It starts out as the hope that someone will say, "Wow! That was awesome!" But then turns into, "By God, they better like this, I've poured my heart into these words, paragraphs, pages." But I'm getting better about critiques.

[pictopedia]

Ok, let it out Mr Sarber. Enough of the hinting. Coma? Full disability? What happened to you?

[smsarber]

Ok, let it out Mr Sarber. Enough of the hinting. Coma? Full disability? What happened to you?
I don't want to take up a lot of space in UJ's thread. So I will PM you the story. It's a case for Dr. House!

[Yeshanu]

Praise! Praise! Praise! Oh, wait... that doesn't help me. But I have been guilty of looking for praise. It starts out as the hope that someone will say, "Wow! That was awesome!" But then turns into, "By God, they better like this, I've poured my heart into these words, paragraphs, pages." But I'm getting better about critiques.

We're all praise junkies in some way or another. That's why it actually helps someone hear you if you start off a critique with a positive point or two. After all, specific praise is just as useful as specific criticism. However, when our need for praise blots out our ability to hear valid criticism, we'll stop improving. At that point, we're dead as artists.

[smsarber]

I have a theory that when I first began posting on AW I was so needy for validation that I almost completely alienated myself from anyone ever critting my work. In the beginning I had only been writing for about nine months. I had just woke up from the PA nightmare, and was still feeling pain from that. Toss in how many bridges I had burnt with my alcoholism, and how I felt in my attempts to rebuild trust with family and friends and you have one very volitile attitude. But I am glad nobody cut me any slack here. I am growing as a writer, and I couldn't have done that otherwise.
Somebody once said I couldn't use writing as a way to stay sober. But it works. It is not my only support program, but it gives me the sense of accomplishment I need. Even when I write something that is total and complete crap I feel good. "Hey, look at what I created!" I had always been interested in writing, even while I drank. The problem for me was that when I drank I had no patience. If I wrote a story it had no depth whatsoever. A story that needed to be 2000 words long would end up 300. "I just don't feel like giving my time to it. It ruins my buzz." I thank God for the people here.