Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1 [Archive] - Page 3

James D Macdonald

02-19-2004, 10:01 AM

Congrats, Tamara!

(Where I've been the last couple of ... days? Yesterday morning I was a guest instructor at the US Coast Guard Academy in the morning, and at two classes at UConn in the afternoon. Before that, I'd spent the weekend in Boston (fans! editors! expense-account dinners! alcohol!) doing professional things.)

Okay, brags and boasts aside....

Shall we talk briefly about the Mid-Book?

That's the dreadful, long, trudgingly weary part of the novel that comes between the opening and the climax.

You have to have this part of the book for several reasons. First, you want to have your novel be novel-length, right? The mid-book keeps the covers from getting too close together. Second, the climax of a novel is bigger and more complex (and operates on more levels) than the climax of a short story. Setting up a climax like that takes time and verbiage. The mid-book is where it happens. Third, the experience of a novel involves getting to know the characters. Your readers can't do that without spending time with those characters.

Still, the mid-book is hard to write, at least for me. The joyful exhilaration of the opening is gone. The slam-bang heady excitement of the climax is yet to come. Here in the mid-book the climax seems far away; all that the mid-book promises is a day of writing, followed by another day, then another... stretching out to the end of time. Crossing an endless plain under the hot sun could hardly be more tedious.

If you're going to give up on your novel now is the time when you'll do it. Joy has leached from the world, all is dust and ashes, the words that formerly had come running gladly to do your command now sit about sullenly pretending you aren't there.

The freedom of the opening is gone. Those choices you made in the first half-dozen chapters are now handcuffs restricting your possible courses of action. You don't see how you're ever going to get to a conclusion, let alone a satisfactory conclusion.

I've used the chessgame analogy before, and I'm going to use it again. The mid-book is the mid-game. You're setting up the checkmate, but it's still anyone's game, and a more confusing time for the player (that's you, author) would be hard to imagine.

Someone else said that a basic plot goes like this:

1) Get the hero up a tree
2) Throw rocks at him
3) Get him out of the tree.

We're at the rock-throwing stage.

Well, this is good to know. If you can't think of anything else, do something nasty to your hero.

How to get out of this quagmire for good? Remember this: A novel isn't just a short story with more words. A novel has layers and levels of meaning, and the mid-book is where they go.

Now you do the variations on your theme. You do counterpoints. You do mirror-images. If your theme is Honor, now you show Disgrace.

Who does these things? Your minor characters! Each with his own story-arc, each with his own climax, all the while you're building toward your main story's main climax.

I wish I could draw you a picture, show the interlacing arcs of story, each moving the plot forward, each developing theme, each revealing character, all coming to minor (yet ever increasing and more-rewarding) conclusions. Perhaps I'll try, later on.

It is a thing of beauty. (Or will be, after revision.)

<hr>

Uh Oh ... a Pitfall.

How many of you have programmed in BASIC? You remember the <a href="http://www.oopic.com/do.htm" target="_new">Do Loop</a>?

90 LET X=1
100 DO WHILE X<=10
110 LPRINT "STUFF HAPPENS!"
120 X=X+1
130 LOOP

Do not make the middle of your book a Literary Do Loop. That just fills pages with prose without getting anything accomplished. Recall that your goal is to write The Very Best Book You Can. That is, Way Better Than Anything Else Now Being Written. (Aim high, guys.) Wheel spinning will only gain you readers who throw your book against the wall.

The mid-book will still be horror compounded to get across, but, day by day, you'll get through it, until one morning your hero will make a bold stroke, everything that your subconscious put in place will aid him, and you'll realize that you're in the Climax. Hurrah!

That, O my friends, is the mid-book.

James D Macdonald

02-19-2004, 10:26 AM

So i've finished my first attempt at a novel. NOW WHAT!?

Revise the heck out of it.

Or, by "finished" do you mean "I already read it out loud. I already put it in my desk drawer for three months, then re-read it with my red pencil in hand. I've already sent it out to my beta-readers, and took their suggestions to heart. I already reprinted it using a different typeface and margins, so I could read it with a fresh eye. Now what?"

Now... send it out 'til Hell won't have it.

Go to your local bookstore. Find books on the shelf that are similar to yours. Note down their publishers. Write to those publishers to get their guidelines. Follow those guidelines to the letter.

At the same time, make a list of the agents who you would most like to represent you. ("Because he advertised in Writer's Digest is not a reason why you want someone to represent you!)

Proceed on a two-front approach. Try to get an agent, and try to get published, simultaneously.

Yes, it's easier to get an agent if you've sold a book, but it isn't impossible. Yes, it's easier to sell a book if you've got an agent, but it isn't impossible.

Be aware that you're playing in the big leagues now. No one is going to cut you any slack because you're a first-timer. The readers in the bookstores certainly won't. But ... if you've got a fair handle on English Prose, and if you have a strong story that you tell convincingly, you will be published. Maybe not at the first, or the second, or the third place you send the book ... but it'll happen.

And ... maybe not this book.

As soon as you drop the manuscript into the mail, as it goes off to its first publisher and its first prospective agent ... go back home, put your butt in your chair, and Start Your Next Novel.

Feezle the weezle

02-19-2004, 10:57 AM

Thank you so much for responding,

I haven't had any beta-readers yet. I suppose that should be my next step.

The problem I keep having is that every time I read it over I find things to change. I'm afraid that I'll never be satisfied, but that's something I can get over. I understand that perfection is unattainable.

I haven't put it aside for three months either because I am so excited that I have reached 'the end' that I can't stop polishing it.

Should I spend a lot of time trying to find representation or is trying to sell it myself the best idea?

I am definitely going to use all your tips. I think I can speak for all us amateurs when I say thank you so much for taking your time to help us.

James D Macdonald

02-19-2004, 11:37 AM

Manuscripts are never so much finished as escaped. If you're still in the daily polish routine ... if you're making substantial changes, and they're improvements ... it isn't time to lay it by, not just yet.

If you're taking out a comma in the morning and putting it back in the afternoon, it's time to go to your beta readers.

Do try reading it aloud, and do try reading it reformatted.

Starting your next book now wouldn't be a bad idea. Writing one while revising the last is one way that keeps my batteries fresh. It might work for you.

HConn

02-19-2004, 01:13 PM

(Aim high, guys.)

Site link removed per request of other site's Webmaster

Maybe I'm a little weird, but I like the middle. That's the cheese, bacon, beef, lettuce and so on between the buns. I really get a chance to kick the protagonist around and make him cling to his flaws.

It's the endings that give me the heebies.

edited to fix a tyop.

Wintersweet

02-19-2004, 02:53 PM

I'm with you, HConn. I'm worried that Mr. MacD and most of the writers I know already have the end in mind when the start. I never do. And I never finish--or at least, I haven't since the horrid book I wrote in junior high.

Can I learn to find my endings as I go, or must they spring full-grown into my mind before I start?

absolutewrite

02-19-2004, 06:13 PM

Just wanted to point out that Uncle Jim now has a column on Absolute Write. First installment is here: www.absolutewrite.com/nov...velist.htm (http://www.absolutewrite.com/novels/commercial_novelist.htm)

Thanks, Jim!

HConn

02-19-2004, 08:58 PM

The first column looks great. Looking forward to more. :)

Winter, I usually know the ending before I start because I do my best to outline thoroughly, but it usually changes by the time I get there.

It's the entire idea of writing the climax of the book--the most exciting part--that gets to me. I usually think there's something more interesting/scary/exciting/heart-wrenching in the middle.

jeffspock

02-19-2004, 10:02 PM

Jim (and everyone else),

Here is why I am confused about writing something without knowing the ending--because I can't see how it is possible.

From what I understand about dramatic structure, a story (regardless of length) is built as a series of conflicts with rising tension that explode in a climax. All of the characters and forces that you set in motion during the previous scenes are supposed to be there for this great collision.

So if you don't know how that is going to end, how can you start writing? How can you know what foreshadowing to employ (or not), or who the important characters are (or not), or between which two character you want to build tension, or in what direction the story is going?

I just got spanked like a naughty puppy for not doing this; an editor of Interzone wrote to me:

"...the story romps along, all concrete illustration of points being made, until the final two paragraphs where everything suddenly becomes lifeless. The last line is the flattest thing in the story."

My experience of not having a coherent ending was the writer's equivalent of getting paddled and having my nose rubbed in it.

But if you don't know where the story is going as you write it, how can you possibly pull it together well in the end? Maybe with raw talent you can wing-and-prayer it, but for me this seems (re: above example) to be a non-starter.

Comments? Verbal abuse? RPG's (Ridicule-Propelled Gripes)?

Thanks,

Jeff
www.jeffspock.com

Lori Basiewicz

02-19-2004, 10:40 PM

In the rough draft, I do not know all the details. I've been surprised already by a couple of things that have come up in my badly written novel. Later, when I'm rewriting (and rewriting and rewriting), I will add all the foreshadowing, etc. to turn the badly written novel into something salable.

James D Macdonald

02-20-2004, 04:10 AM

Here's an article about aiming high.

Yes.

I've heard of the cover letter that came with one piece of slush: "I think you'll find the enclosed manuscript a cut above the kind of crap you usually publish."

This impressed the editors no end.

qatz

02-20-2004, 04:11 AM

Kudos on the first column, Jim. Thanks for your further thoughts. I was especially intrigued with this:

"I wish I could draw you a picture, show the interlacing arcs of story, each moving the plot forward, each developing theme, each revealing character, all coming to minor (yet ever increasing and more-rewarding) conclusions. Perhaps I'll try, later on."

I have been working on this theme as well with the discussion of the GUT outline in my website, and some off-line notes. I hope to publish a PDR article or something soon with this as one of the main foci. When I do I'd like to give people a link to it here in the unlikely event that my various conjectures add to the progress of the discussion. Should be in a week or so. Maybe you can use me for a bad example!
(http://www.ebedits.com)

James D Macdonald

02-20-2004, 04:22 AM

Jeff ...

I have a climax in mind when I start. (The climax is usually in the form of a startling visual.)

More than once I've reached a different climax. Heck, there's one climax I've been using for years, but never getting to it.

So.

What you do with your story: Find the right climax for it. How the heck do I do that, I can hear you ask.

One way: Hold your story in your mind as you're drifting off to sleep tonight. Tomorrow morning, write a whole new ending for your story.

(How long a story is this?)

If your last line is the weakest one in the story, cut it. If the last page is weak, cut it. Maybe you've overshot your conclusion?

Put the story aside. Read it again in a few months.

Ask your beta readers for their opinions.

Write a new story, then come back to this one.

Place this story aside, then rewrite it from memory.

Many are the things you can do to fix this story.

The best fix might be: Consider the writing of it as experience. Write a new story, this time with a strong climax. The climax is where you reward the reader for believing your tissue of lies.

pdr

02-21-2004, 07:29 AM

Thanks for the sound advice, James. I've printed it off and pinned it up by the keyboard. I haven't met any well published writer who has a way to get through chs. 5-15 without the writer's 3Ds: determination, disicpline and dedication. (I did hope you had a way round though!)

abdel411

02-21-2004, 10:27 AM

I haven't written anything professionally, just sorta jotted a few ideas down in my spare time, but recently, I've devoted myself to writing a novel. I try to get in two hours of writing everyday, but I'm still in school so I have studies to attend to as well. I'd like a simple explanation of the publishing process, I.E. who do I send a manuscript to and what is average pay, length of work, etc.

(I realize some of these questions have already been answered throughout the post, but I'd like to make sure I have everything straight.)

James D Macdonald

02-21-2004, 01:57 PM

Woo-whee, abdel411!

Those aren't simple, easy questions, and there isn't a simple explanation. Lots of different cases, lots of variables, lots of outcomes.

Here, though, are some very simple ones:
The length is whatever length is the best one for your story (you'll learn this through experience).
Who you send it to is someone who is likely to buy it (you'll learn this through research).
Average pay approaches zero (more experience).

Your local bookstore and library are full of book-length works explaining all these things. Check 'em out. Meanwhile, here's a good collection of articles: <a href="http://www.sfwa.org/writing/" target="_new">Read 'em and digest.</a>

Now some general words of advice: First write your book. Thinking about writing isn't writing. Talking about writing isn't writing. Only writing is writing. Write with all the power and passion and skill that you have. Get to The End. Revise the snot out of your book. Then send it on its way to paying markets.

Submitting your work isn't writing either; now it's time to start writing a new book.

Don't ever pay to get published.

Iocaine

02-23-2004, 12:59 AM

I never had any interest in writing.

I'm a software engineer. My career is a dominatrix that demands aesthetic design under cruel schedules, and she rewards me well.

Another mistress would surely be too much to bear, and yet...

The Idea started innocuously enough, a random thought while driving to work. But now it won't shut up; its like having an attention-starved puppy in my head.

I know I have a story to tell, but dare I commit it to Gauss? As with so many other bright and shiny projects, will I get bored, and set it aside half-assembled? Will I mix metaphors of masochism and puppies?

So here I am, reading. Learning from Uncle Jim & co.

Procrastinating.

Should I learn? Practice? Run away?

Or just jump in, and damn the torpedoes?

I think I now understand this quote:

"In the end, you write the book that grabs you by the throat and demands to be written."

-Salman Rushdie

aka eraser

02-23-2004, 01:46 AM

Jump in and learn while you're practicing.

Yeshanu

02-23-2004, 02:45 AM

Hi, everyone.

I'm new here, and have been lurking for a few days while I read through all 27 pages of posts.

Reading most of it in one day (yesterday) was interesting -- I was able to see group dynamics in action. More on that in another post, perhaps.

For my first post, I thought I'd introduce myself -- I'm a student pastor in (at the moment) snowy Ontario, and I've been writing seriously since about the age of 11 or 12. When my daughter was born, I started a fantasy novel, and somewhere about a decade ago I actually finished the first draft. My beta readers all think it's good enough to publish (even my kids, who are critical of most everything else I do), and it won't let me put it away in a drawer and let it die. However, I know I have a great deal of revision to do -- not of spelling, grammar or style, but of plot, character and overall coherence.

Any suggestions?

Also, my first three chapters are probably as close to the final form as they are going to get without an agent's or editor's input. Should I think about query letters and submitting at this point? (I do work better with an immovable deadline -- like Sunday morning.)

Just want to say I'm glad to be here. :heart

Ruth

aka eraser

02-23-2004, 02:49 AM

Welcome from another canucklehead.

The first 3 chapters and a detailed synopsis is often enough to bait a hook with non-fiction but for a first-time novelist, I think you need the whole ms good-to-go.

Zhengshu

02-23-2004, 03:04 AM

Like Ruth, I'm a new reader still digesting 27 pages of excellent advice. I have to say I've really appreciated this forum and the "lessons" from Uncle Jim.

I'm still just a young author, but I've been writing for years and have a nice little pile of short stories that I wrote just for fun. I never thought I had time to really get into the swing of things (what, with school and all) until I read about Uncle Jim's sleeping habits. :eek But now I'm inspired to turn my little novel outlines into novels.

From what I've gathered here, the basic process for this long journey is something like this:

1. Write novel (BIC method).
2. All stages of rewriting, revision, etc.
3. Gather info on publishers and agents.
4. Send to publishers (one at a time).
5. If you get a deal, contact an agent with contract in hand.

It's step three that I seem to have the most trouble with. Do you recommend Writers Market for information on publishers and agents? It's easy enough to make a list of publishers you'd like to see handle your book, but agents seem to be more behind-the-scenes from the perspective of a layman like myself. Any hints?

qatz

02-23-2004, 03:40 AM

hi, locaine, and good luck! among other things, you will definitely want to take part in our procrastination seminar, in the casually scheduled group chat held by some of us that occurs once in a while. the procrastination chat has been rescheduled about 3 or 4 times and put off indefinitely . . . but one of these days it may actually happen, if it's all not too much work! Q

qatz

02-23-2004, 03:44 AM

Hi Ruth! check out www.ebedits.com (http://www.ebedits.com) if you like. good luck! oh, and by the way, the group dynamics constantly evolve. we're a pretty friendly group when all is said and done with only a few oddballs. :ack

Signed, Crackpot

qatz

02-23-2004, 03:56 AM

Hi Zhengshu, and welcome! There are authorities here who can help you with agents. In respect to your Step Two, though, you might want to involve other, perhaps more objective people in your revision process. Things can always use more work, I've found. Dave Kuminski's Preditors and Editors website is a good resource. Anyone got the URL? Ahem, there is also moi, I'm just starting out with www.ebedits.com (http://www.ebedits.com) ... and there are a lot of friendly people here who will share ideas and look over snippets of your stuff (in the Share Your Work board) for FREE. Some of these guys actually know what they're talking about, too! Q

Karen Junker

02-23-2004, 02:01 PM

www.anotherealm.com/prede...contac.htm (http://www.anotherealm.com/prededitors/pecontac.htm)

I think this is the url for preditors and editors...

qatz

02-24-2004, 02:31 AM

Thank you, Karen.

jerir12

02-24-2004, 03:55 AM

I've been reading the discussions in these pages. I just posted a scene on the 1st page in the Novel Writing forum. Is that the proper place to post ones scenes for their novel?

Has anyone in this discussion group posted scenes of their novels in any of these forums? If I didn't post my scene in the proper place where do I post it?

Jerir12(JerryR)

emeraldcite

02-24-2004, 04:34 AM

jerry, on the front page of the water cooler there is a board marked "Share your work." You can post anything you want there for critique and review. Welcome to the boards! i hope you find the information and advice useful for your pursuits.

jerir12

02-24-2004, 08:11 AM

Thank you emeraldcite.

virgilanti

02-24-2004, 09:07 AM

Thank you Uncle Jim. This thread is a great resource and has been an inspiration for me to get on my butt.

With a full time job and a family I'm trying to work out how to manage a couple of hours of undisturbed writing per day. The two hours after midnight sound perfect but my self discipline hits an all time low at that end of the day. My initial attempt at pre-dawn hours (http://www.virgilanti.com/journal/archives/archive_2004-m02.php#e301) showed up a few flaws. I'll find a way.

Anjulis

02-24-2004, 10:57 AM

Hi,

Can I ask you a question? I have written and published about 30 short SF stories and two big ones in a different country and different language (Russian). I would like to translate them to English and get them published in the USA.
1. What are the steps to get them published?
2. How much should I expect to get for a short story, say 15 pages? Do they pay for word/page/story?
3. Who publishes SF short stories in the US? SF magazines?
4. Should I take some specific steps for copyright issues? I don't know how US law works in this respect.

KyleDHebert

02-24-2004, 12:04 PM

When exactly is the best time to begin revisions. Should I start the day after finishing or is it better to set the MS aside for awhile and let it stew?

HapiSofi

02-24-2004, 12:18 PM

James D. Macdonald, I want to argue with you about midbooks.

Midbooks are great. They're my favorite part of the novel. The expository burdens of setting up the world and the story are fully paid up to date, and the flensing-away and hard choices of the ending aren't yet upon you. Everybody in the book knows what they're supposed to be doing by now, and so does the reader.

Midbooks are the happy middle age of the book. They're the proper territory of grand set pieces, embedded short stories, ornamentally weird subplots, significant episodes starring non-major characters, masques, battles, and all that jazz. (Jazz is good.) If you need to make a change in a major character, this is where it should happen. Midbooks are also the right place for that underrated event, the index-episode of perfect happiness, wherein everything works out just right, and everyone behaves characteristically.

The only requirement is that it all has to move-toward in terms of the overall book. That isn't all that hard. You can maintain balance by keeping the novel stripped down to the bone, but you can also do it by having enough odd-sized and odd-shaped objects hanging off it.

So say I. Your mileage may vary.

Salve Ghostwalker

02-24-2004, 02:33 PM

Hi Anjulis,

>>> 1. What are the steps to get them published? <<<

It sounds like the first step is to translate a few of your best stories and try them at the U.S. markets.

>>> 3. Who publishes SF short stories in the US? <<<

check www.ralan.com for a list of professional and semi-professional SF & Fantasy magazines.

I can't answer the other questions.

troutwaxer

02-25-2004, 02:37 AM

Hi everyone. I just finished reading the entire board up to this point, and wanted to say hello. I'll be following along daily.

Jim, thanks for doing all this hard work. I really appreciate it.

An earlier poster asked about the subject of transitions, and I must admit that I have problems with them too. What is the proper method for skipping a long period of time in a narrative, and when one resumes the story a week/month/year later, how does one clue the reader into how long it's been?

Alex

envygreen

02-25-2004, 03:13 AM

1 - Thanks Uncle Jim (and all you others). This thread is great reading, especially for someone still in the foothills and questing towards 'The Mountain'.

(i'm trying to make a name for myself [and hone my skills] with short speculative fiction before trying to climb the pile of notes that comprises my 'future novel' aka 'The Mountain')

2 - I hope you don't mind free publicity. I am a big proponent of spreading useful information (to help combat all the not-so-useful info that propagates on it's own) and so i posted it on Future Tense (the Alan Lattimore writing site, it's about 4 stories down from the top right now) (http://www.alattimore.com/bin/geeklog/index.php), and then mentioned it on my site with a link (http://brotherjames.net/?op=displaystory;sid=2004/2/19/121848/805) and then borrowed a wee bit of your inspiration (i'll return it after dry cleaning!) to start my own little thread (on a board i just learned to install on sunday night!) that isn't about teaching, but about learning. (collection of links and sage sayings, including quite a bit of this thread, thanks again Uncle Jim! (http://www.thearmz.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4)

3 - Stephen Brust is one of my personal favorite authors, but i haven't read the book you recommended (though i've read almost every Jhereg Series (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?WRD=jhereg&userid=35D45O5WTW&cds2Pid=946) book he's put out, and LOVE Cowboy Feng's Space Bar and Grille (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=35D45O5WTW&isbn=0765306646&itm=1).)

Soo.... I ordered a copy and it should show up in my mailbox in a week or so.

4 - on the helpful note: any reason no one has mentioned Writer's Market 2004 (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=35D45O5WTW&isbn=1582971897&itm=2) as a good resource? Is it because it's more aimed at short stories than novels? if so, there is also (though i haven't used it so can't vouch for it personally) 2004 Novel & Short Story Writer's Market (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?WRD=2004+Novel+and+Short+Story+Writers +Market&userid=35D45O5WTW).

i only mention this because as uncle jim said, as soon as it's done, you send it, and move on to writing something new.

to expand slightly, i've been told, send it, but have your list of publishers already in order of your most to least preffered. and possibly envelopes already labeled for the top few on your list.

then if/when you recieve a rejection slip, you can, THAT SAME DAY, slip a new copy of your MS into the mail to your second (third, fourth, last) publisher on the list, and these books will at least give you a start on who you want to send to. (but do NOT ignore the sage advice to actually go to a bookstore, and see for yourself what that publisher actually puts out)

-Rob Eubanks

<anxiously awaiting his next rejection slip and working more science fiction>

AndySoc1al

02-27-2004, 04:54 AM

I've played a bit with Dramatica (http://www.dramatica.com) in the past, and I'm currently reading up on Campbell's approach to myth in culture. These two seem to mesh pretty well in theory, but I wonder who (besides Tracy Hickman) uses Dramatica to help them with their novels?

I think the ideas behind it are interesting, in that they help to make sure you put enough characters into the story and flesh them out well enough to make it a novel instead of a really long short story.

Anyone else looked at Dramatica? Jim?

HConn

02-27-2004, 05:00 AM

I have Dramatica on my shelf. I won it in a contest. I've never opened it, though. I've been meaning to sell it on ebay.

From what I've heard of it, it's an unusual theory and very involved. Some folks swear by it, but no one who sells their work will profess to using it.

Anjulis

02-27-2004, 05:16 AM

The problem is that I need to pay for the transaltion so I need to know how much I can expect to get from publisher. At least, a rough number.

qatz

02-27-2004, 08:07 AM

okay, anjulis, translate your own. you seem to have a good comprehension of english. then send it to me or a million other editor types for an opinion. as for me, my email is ebqatz@msn.com. then go from there. success is not guaranteed. your prior success in russia is at least encouraging. give it a shot if you want! and (not to advertise Somebody Else, which must be a capitalist sin) think about going to the same seminar i recommended to my sci-fi son . . . Viable Paradise . . . where real pros hang out. Q

p.s. oh yes, i am a lawyer and actually know something about copyright issues. contact me if you wish about that, at least to get a grounding in our law. or check out the article by another lawyer recently pubbed by Jenna G. in the absolute newsletter.

AndySoc1al

02-27-2004, 08:24 AM

no one who sells their work will profess to using it.

Tracy Hickman. And a lot of screenwriters. No other novelists, though, that I can find.

qatz

02-27-2004, 08:35 AM

i think screenwriters use a software. no novelist worth their salt would. mebbe Tracy's the exception. you might check my new essay in the "share your work" board here, under "outlines." i'd link to that but, um, don't know how.

James D Macdonald

02-27-2004, 08:56 AM

Hapi,

The mid-book is "where the exciting action and the exciting combinations occur" (as I said way upstream and <a href="http://boingboing.net/2004_02_01_archive.html#107716444588285115" target="_new">Boing-Boing</a> blogged).

What I'm trying to say here is that the mid-book is (for me) the toughest part to write -- when the horizon recedes by one step for every step I take forward -- and seems to me to be the part of the book when most writers embarking on a first novel quit.

I've tried very formalist outlines (based on visual designs), and I've tried winging it to get through the mid-book. (The mid-book is lots longer than one-third of the book. It's the part that isn't the opening and isn't the climax.)

What I've found is that the stronger your opening, the better you've put interesting people in interesting places, the more easily you can answer the question "What the heck do I do now?"

For this reason openings are hard.

Mid-books allow you to do themes and counterthemes, and sudden shifts ... but that's because you're trying to set up the climax and illuminate it. Novels aren't just Very Long Short Stories. They are a knot where a short story is a string. They are a comedy routine where a short story is a joke.

I'm going to have to do a picture of a plot. I just know it.

James D Macdonald

02-27-2004, 09:06 AM

1. What are the steps to get them published?

Type them double-spaced on one side of the page ... and submit them with a self-addressed stamped envelope. Same guidelines for manuscript preparation and submission as for any story. (Getting US stamps might be a problem -- International Reply Coupons is the standard answer, but I'm not certain how to work 'em from Russia.)

2. How much should I expect to get for a short story, say 15 pages? Do they pay for word/page/story?

Most magazines pay by the word. 15 pages * 250 words/page * $0.04/word = $150.00. Therefore ... you should concentrate on the best-paying markets. But that's good advice for everyone. Generally speaking, the number of readers you'll have is directly proportional to the size of your advance.

3. Who publishes SF short stories in the US? SF magazines?

Many anthologies and magazines publish SF short stories. Fantasy & Science Fiction, Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction and Analog are three of the best-known/highest paying magazines.

4. Should I take some specific steps for copyright issues? I don't know how US law works in this respect.

Generally speaking, copyright exists from the moment the work first is fixed in tangible form (that is, when it's reduced to writing from an idea in your mind). Copyright registration is generally done by the publisher who buys your works.

Now some more general advice: If you're doing your own translations, makes sure a native speaker of American English is among your beta-readers.

(Note: A beta-reader is one of your friends who is willing to read a draft of your story and make brutally frank, honest comments on it. When you find such a person, honor him.)

James D Macdonald

02-27-2004, 09:09 AM

check www.ralan.com for a list of professional and semi-professional SF & Fantasy magazines

Another useful index can be found at <a href="http://www.marketlist.com/proindex.asp" target="_new">Marketlist.com</a>

James D Macdonald

02-27-2004, 09:16 AM

Hiya, TroutWaxer! Pull up a chair, have a beer. Everyone's welcome.

For a really long gap of time, a chapter break is usually appropriate.

<blockquote>
<HR>

.... "Here's to success!" Margrave said, raising his glass.

"Sucess!" Wulfram echoed. The wine tasted bitter on his lips.

CHAPTER THIRTY TWO

What with this and that some five years had passed before Margrave saw Wulfram again....

<HR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>

Something else to ask is, "Why the long gap in time or jump in location? Wasn't a minor character doing anything in that time? Wasn't a major character having an adventure that would shed illumination on an important point in the approaching climax?"

Only show the important parts, yes. But ... have you explored every meaning of the word "important"?

James D Macdonald

02-27-2004, 09:35 AM

Hey to Envygreen, too!

I don't mind free publicity one little bit. (One note: I'm James D. Macdonald. John D. McDonald is a) A better writer than me, and b) Dead.)

I hope you enjoy <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN=0312860390/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars</a>.

I didn't mention <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN=1582971897/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Writer's Market</a> (and Literary Marketplace)? O dear, I have been remiss! Both excellent sources for markets.

Yes, as soon as your story is done, you send it. But "done" means "fully revised." Don't send out first drafts!

Here's another rule: Never practice in public.
(and yeah, Never let a manuscript sleep over).

SRHowen

02-27-2004, 05:55 PM

I think Tracy Hickman might object to the "no normal novelist" title.

He and his wife Laura seem to be very normal novelists.

Shawn

BTW for Wild Child Publishing I did a live IM interview with the Hickmans to be published in April.

pdr

02-27-2004, 08:47 PM

You can buy American postage stamps by email. Sorry I'm not using my computer so cannot access the website. Someone else here is bound to know the address. You can actually buy most countries' stamps electronically.

The Writer's Digest's 'Writers' Marketplace' is really for freelancers writing articles. The W'sD 'Novels and Short Story Markets' is great for fiction writers. Do you know www.gilaqueen.com? Kathy does a great SF markets section in her ezine and there are several other market zines around for the USA.

KyleDHebert

02-27-2004, 10:18 PM

Just thought I'd repeat my earlier question:

When should revision of a MS begin?

in On Writing Stephen King suggests a six week period between finishing the first draft and revision. Does anyone have thoughts on this. Jim, what works for you?

veingloree

02-27-2004, 10:55 PM

Re stamps -- postal reply coupons can be used in any country and can be bought from any post office.

envygreen

02-28-2004, 01:53 AM

did i mispell your name? if so, must have been typing while doing tech support again. :P i do know your name, (it's uncle jim! j/k)

and thanks for the advice about not sending out unrevised work (or practicing in public as you put it).

the story that i'm waiting to hear on is a rewrite of my first ever. and i wouldn't feel ashamed of putting against any short story that i've read in the mags recently. i wouldn't win many of the matchups, but i wouldn't be ashamed of my work.

the reason i mention is because the first version of it, i tried to edit.

and tried to edit

and tried to edit.

and then sent it to asimovs. (yeah, i know, kinda silly, first ever story, sent straight to the biggest name mag, but i was feeling cocky, and had two pretty decent stories to send)

anyway, long story short, it was rejected, i got dejected, eventually moved on to other projects cause i saw no way to edit the story further to make it any better. i tried my best, but my pie was a pancake.

after a while in the drawer, i pulled it out and worked on it while i was stumped on the story i'm back on now. i started it over from scratch, just looking at the printout beside me now and then for a reference, wrote a whole new story that captured what i wanted out of the first one.

i haven't heard back yet, but i _know_ it's tons better than anything i've done before. i think i hit my stride on that story, and since i was instinctively following advice i hadn't read yet, i think you may be on to something with that 'rewrite a short story don't edit it' suggestion.

:)

r

ChunkyC

02-28-2004, 03:27 AM

Hello! - New here, so I inadvertently added this as a new topic. My bad. So here it is, hopefully in the right place...

Whew, thought I'd never catch up. Just wanted to say hi to everyone. This has been one of the most informative reads I've encountered since I started trying to figure out this writing gig.

I'd like to relate an experience of mine regarding not knowing what's going to happen next while writing a novel. I have a scene in the book I'm shopping around right now where two cops are investigating a string of murders with the help of a third from another jurisdiction. For reasons known only to me at the time I was writing it, I didn't want these killings solved, but had no idea how to thwart the investigators.

So - I'm writing a scene where the pair of cops (Muir & Piper) are heading to a meeting with the third cop (Sutherland) to discuss their next move in the case. As I'm typing along, Sutherland starts arguing with the other two and begins trying to put them off the trail. I had not intended this when I sat down to write that day. Muir and Piper persist, and then:

-- Sutherland knew it might come to this. He reached around to the small of his back, pulled out his backup weapon and shot Muir point-blank between the eyes, then did the same to Piper --

I had NO IDEA he would do that. I jumped out of my chair and danced around the room, my spine tingling. In revision, I tidied this piece up and made connections between Sutherland and a hidden 'puppetmaster' type character, who incidentally was not performing such a role until this happened.

This was one of those moments where your characters take over the story and I had never experienced it before. This out-of-the-blue surprise added an entirely new dimension to my story and was as exciting as any experience of my life. Seriously.

Anywhoo, just wanted to share & say how much I'm learning from hanging around here.

SRHowen

02-28-2004, 05:16 AM

before you send it out the door--not funny I know.

I edit right of way. But I do a series of edits. I do one for my pet words, I do one for passive voice, I do one for was, had, that, and just--extensions of my pet words. When I think the MS is as clean as it can get mechanics wise, I set it aside for at least a month--more like 6 to 8 weeks then go back to it.

Start too soon on story edits and you are blind to them.

Shawn

jerir12

02-28-2004, 07:32 AM

hi again,

So when we are posting chapters of our novels do we post them in the proper forum or continue to post them in short works?

jerir12

www.angelfire.com/ca6/boys (http://www.angelfire.com/ca6/boys)

MidDark

02-28-2004, 11:51 AM

How do you go about using a quote from another book at the beginning of a chapter?

If the quote is a single line quote, do you need permission to use it?

emeraldcite

02-28-2004, 12:10 PM

jerir12

you should post your chapters in the "share your work" forum. You can mention on this board that you've posted something new, if you like, but people go there to offer critiques. it just keeps things clean up here.

thanks!

qatz

02-29-2004, 03:28 AM

Okay, I have a new little essay on outlines that adds to what we've already discussed, particularly in pictographing the novel. I'd like to leave a link to it here to further the dicussion, but I'll be subbing to an ezine or posting it, with any luck, somewhere else. Any suggestions?

p.s. Oh yes, and yet another question for Jim--what's the difference between a mainstream novel and a literary novel? My tiger is confused.

pdr

02-29-2004, 08:00 AM

If you can get stamps it will save you money. International reply coupons cost far more than a stamp. Oops! perhaps they don't in the USA. I also read in the 'Writer's News' UK that IRCs are on the way out.

James D Macdonald

02-29-2004, 09:09 AM

To me, Mainstream is a work of realistic fiction set in current times. A Literary work concentrates on prose style above realism.

But that's just me.

Really, what we're talking about are marketing categories. That's a mark on the spine that the publisher puts there to tell the bookstores where to shelve the books, so that people who are looking for a particular kind of book can find it easily.

There are four genres: Prose, Rhetoric, Drama, and Poetry. Everything else is a quibble on how to sell the product for money.

HapiSofi

03-01-2004, 03:27 AM

Anjulis, a good translator can cost you as much as you'll earn on the story -- and you have to pay the translator whether or not the story subsequently sells.

What language are your stories written in? Have you checked the markets for that language?

James D Macdonald

03-01-2004, 03:38 AM

Six weeks between finishing a first draft and starting revisions is entirely reasonable. That gives you time for the book to go through the "How did I write this garbage? If anyone sees this they'll know I'm a fraud" stage without your having to look at it.

Cary

03-01-2004, 05:51 AM

(microphone crackle..) Paging Dr Jim...Doctor Jim could you please report to the "Hello",thread for just a moment,please...Thank You. Carybelle
* Sorry for the interuption,guyz....(Gatzy,we could use you too...).....Carry on!!!!...;)

jpwriter

03-01-2004, 07:05 AM

James,
One correction. If true, John D. MacDonald was a better writer than you unless you believe in reincarnation and he is back at it again.:lol
Jerry

qatz

03-01-2004, 10:14 AM

Homer is a better writer than me, Jerry. Always will be.

jeffspock

03-01-2004, 07:10 PM

Jim,

Thank you for the concrete recommendations on fixing my ending--all six of them. I have done three, and am re-sending the story. And you know what? It's better.

Jeff

P.S. Sorry about the late reply--I dared to take a week's vacation.

www.jeffspock.com

James D Macdonald

03-01-2004, 10:16 PM

May I be so bold as to ask which three suggestions you took, Jeff?

HapiSofi

03-02-2004, 01:28 AM

Jim, most writers I know write faster and more easily when they're thinking about fun stuff they could do. Have you ever tried keeping a running list of goodies it would be amusing to have in the book, but you're not sure where they fit in? For instance, if you have two different parties wiring two different sets of demolition charges to blow up a ship, you may or may not find a way to have anyone on the ship become aware of this strange and alarming fact; but you can put it on the list of potential fun bits, and then if the opportunity arises you can tuck it in, chortling madly the while.

I imagine this list thumbtacked to the shelf underneath your Emma Frost action figure, but that's just me.

James D Macdonald

03-02-2004, 04:12 AM

Hapi, all that fits under the general rubric of "playing positional chess."

That's putting interesting things into the first draft, that may or may not play out. In the second draft, I take out the stuff that was planted that didn't turn out to be useful (provide a fun combination, a surprise, or move things along in general).

So ... two groups wiring the same ship, at different places. One for a good reason, one for a not-so-good reason.

Neither goes off.

Though ... if I'd needed to, I'd be set to blow up the ship as part of the climax.

I don't keep a formal list of Fun Things taped to my desk. I just put Fun Things directly into the manuscript as I think of them.

James D Macdonald

03-02-2004, 05:16 AM

From the <a href="http://pub43.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessageRange?topicID=412.to pic&start=21&stop=32" target="_new">Hello</a> thread.

<hr>

I had was,Is It (always,sometimes,never..) necessary to make sure that the reader is forewarned(per sey),that a certain charter has the propensity to do what he may end up doing?? Say,becoming the bad guy,when not expected too ??

Readers love to be surprised, but they hate surprises. This is contradictory, but it is true.

Recall <a href="http://users.telerama.com/~joseph/cooper/cooper.html" target="_new">Mark Twain's rules</a> for romantic fiction, particularly "They require that the characters in a tale shall be so clearly defined that the reader can tell beforehand what each will do in a given emergency."

So, you play fair with your readers. You foreshadow all the way through (this foreshaddowing can be symbolic). You don't have your characters break character. The goal is to have your readers say "I never saw that coming," and "That's so right!" simultaneously.

This is art. You do this in the second draft, if pointing up the things that need pointing, using what you now know.

May I recommend a couple of films to you, both of which include a character suddenly and unexpectedly shooting another, yet as you look back on 'em, both well foreshadowed? (Film is a different art form from the novel so lessons from one are not universally applicable to the other, yet both share the drive of narrative....)

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005JL78/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Minority Report</a>

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0790734850/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">L.A. Confidential</A>

Oh, and how about directly telling the audience what's to come? As we all know, the end of <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671039725/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Carrie</a> has the town of Chamberlain, Maine, engulfed in blood and fire with hundreds dead. That ending is directly mentioned on ... page five (Signet paperback edition, 1975). Carrie's telekinetic power is mentioned on page one.

Discussion question for the group: While Carrie is the title character, the protagonist is Sue Snell. Support or oppose; be specific, support your opinion with quotes.

Dancre

03-02-2004, 08:50 AM

So, you play fair with your readers. You foreshadow all the way through (this foreshaddowing can be symbolic). You don't have your characters break character. The goal is to have your readers say "I never saw that coming," and "That's so right!" simultaneously.

This is art. You do this in the second draft, if pointing up the things that need pointing, using what you now know.

So what you're saying is, the auther needs to drop hints through the story leading to an expected/unexpected climax- a bread crumb trail -right? An example is in the "Book of Ruth" by Jane Hamilton, Ruth's husband Ruby is contually dogged by Ruth's mother, May. Hamilton shows Ruby slowly slipping into a kind of uncontrolled rage, until he grabs a fireplace poker and beats May to death, then turns on his wife, almost killing her. i didn't expect it, but i knew something was boiling. would that be a correct example?
kim

James D Macdonald

03-02-2004, 12:41 PM

Foreshadowing can be as subtle as the weather, colors, or the sounds of words.

stefpub

03-03-2004, 12:57 AM

Hi James,

Just a few words to thank you for your advice and your help.
I've been thinking about writing this novel for several months now - I can't say years, I don't want to seem more weak willed than I am - but I've never gotten past the first chapter. The twenty different first chapters.

Your BIC method was exactly what I needed to just make me write something. It's been a great first week of BICing and I have no intention of stopping.
So...

Thanks.

JustinoIV

03-03-2004, 01:09 AM

While I rewriting is a very important part of learning how to write, I think some writers get caught in rewrite hell. You know, constantly rewriting, and rewriting. At some point you should have a workable script.

There are thosw who have maybe one or two scripts, that constantly rewrite in the hopes of making it perfect, hoping they can get a scale. But sometimes a particular project isn't commercially viable, and some projects may be harded for beginning writers to push (i'm speaking as a screenwriter). So in short, I'd say after you finish writing, send out query letters. Lots of them. Move on to the next project while you wait.

James D Macdonald

03-03-2004, 01:55 AM

Right on.

Plunge ahead to "The End." Even if what you're putting on the page at the time is absolute crap. I give you permission to write badly. You're going to revise anyway, right?

I've found some of my best stuff was writing that I thought was crap at the time I put it down. And some of what I thought was my best turned out to be crap when the re-reading and rewriting stage came. It's a wash.

But it ain't nothin' if you don't have three-hundred-odd pages to play with, capisce?

The second mistake that writers make (after Not Writing the Darned Book To Start With) is to only write one book. Look, the first may not be very good. It may be good but not very marketable. So.... the day you send the first one out to the first publisher, that day you start your next book.

Entirely too many people write just one book, then spend the rest of their lives trying to find a publisher for what may be a fatally flawed manuscript.

Paul W West

03-03-2004, 02:38 AM

Uncle Jim,

When do you know your book is ready to send out vs. it still needs work? I may think it's wonderful, but someone else might say keep working on it. When does the revision process end, and the sending out prcess begin?

Paul W West

03-03-2004, 02:40 AM

(This message was left blank)

James D Macdonald

03-03-2004, 02:58 AM

1) Books are never really done. They escape.

2) Your beta readers may tell you.

3) Even after laying it aside for a month and re-reading it, you can't see anything substantial that needs fixing.

4) You're tired of it. What the heck, send it out.

stefpub

03-03-2004, 04:00 AM

I feel pretty good. I've just had a great two hour long writing session (highest number of words written so far and a lot of crappy ones, so you should be happy ;) so I feel a little ecstatic ... except I have no idea where I'm going.

I'm a very big fan of structure and "positional chess" strikes a lot of chords with me. I've built this universe full of rules that tell me exactly who my characters are, how they should react to events and what kind of interesting stuff can cause the end of the world. I can make these characters talk or do thinks - that's what I've been doing so far and it's fun because I've learnt a lot about my world this way - but I can't seem to make them "move", go to places where they'll be useful later.

I have a vague idea of the story I want to tell, but none of the story I am actually telling. I can't outline. I come to the keyboard with a blank mind, which is exhilarating in a way because I know I'll write something anyway, and I come up with scenes that seem to belong in the same story, but no plot.

Could you detail how you move your own characters or how I could kick-start my outlining process?

Beaver

03-03-2004, 08:22 AM

Dear Mr. Macdonald,

Thank you for all of the valuable knowledge that you have put down here in this thread. Im sure you are tired of hearing "thank you" though. Anyway, I am 20 yrs old and new to this site and im slowly reading through this thread day by day. I have to balance schoolwork with writing. I am a Molecular Biology major, so im usually busy studying. I have always wanted to write and have always written "stories" since i was little.

When i used to be bad and act up, my dad would make me write "I will not do...blah blah blah.... anymore" and i used to ask him if i could write him a story instead.

I hope to get through all of the stuff in this post and eventually start participating in the conversation. Thanks for all the pointers. Hopefully one day i can get something published.

Justin

Dancre

03-03-2004, 08:28 AM

Uncle Jim, i found this under the newbie section. could you please offer your assistance? thanks.

One I know of that most confuses me, even though I thought I knew the rules, is paragraphing. It's hard for me to determine where a new one should start. Is the line sometimes fuzzy for any of you, too? Anyway, I'm so glad I found this place. All the talent helped me realize that I'm still that "new" writer, but also convinced me that I will learn much if I keep reading

LiamJackson

03-03-2004, 08:51 AM

Reference "knowing when to stop..."

I'm not sure how many others have this problem, but an associate pointed out to me that I have a tendency to "over-write." I belive his exact words were, "You seem hell-bent on finding something wrong with the story. Sometimes, you just need to lighten up!"

His advice was this: In the event you reach a point where the revision seems worse than the piece you started with, it's time to, A. Put the piece away for a few days, then reread/revise after your brain has had time to decompress, or B. Send it to a trusted Beta reader for input.

For me, the Beta reader, (beta reader=some highly critical ass who should dwell in eternal purgatory for his/her scathing review of my work) has become a staple of the revision process.

Is over-writing an issue with any you?

ChunkyC

03-03-2004, 09:14 AM

Is over-writing an issue with any you?
Oh, yeah. Every time I read my work, I feel the urge to tweak and twiddle...

It was time to go...

It was nearly time to go...

It was almost time to go...

The time to go was now...

It was time to stop f*****g around and write the next sentence. :grin

James D Macdonald

03-03-2004, 12:15 PM

Could you detail how you move your own characters or how I could kick-start my outlining process?

Tell me, Stefpub, have you run through the example games in <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0713484640/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Logical Chess Move by Move</a> yet?

James D Macdonald

03-03-2004, 12:45 PM

Paragraphs ....

The easiest ones are in dialog. Every time a new person speaks, a new paragraph starts.

Else ... every time a new thought starts, a new paragraph starts.

Paragraphs are organized units of meaning.

I think I talked about paragraphs in one of the opening pages of this thread....

MacAl Stone

03-03-2004, 02:02 PM

I've been following this thread from the beginning, and I'm learning a great deal. Thank you, everyone.

I'm interested in the Sue/Carrie as protagonist discussion, even though no one else has commented, yet. I thought I'd take a stab at it.

Our modern concept of protagonist descends from Aristotle's hero: described as "good," "appropriate," "like," and "consistent" (from Aristotle's Poetics.)

Now how we, either as readers or writers, define Aristotle's terms determines how we view a character--assuming we even accept that definition and those terms, to begin with.

It seems to me that a more modern definition of "protagonist" would also have to include a measure of growth. That is, the character must develop/change over the course of the story. Hopefully for the better. If the protagonist/hero changes for the worse, we have something that resembles either an antihero, or a tragic hero--not a romantic hero, (hearkening back upstream to the discussion of writing novel-as-romance.)

Tragic heroes bring a set of rules unique to themselves. Without getting into a lengthy description of why the character Carrie doesn't fit the model, I am inclined to disqualify her as a protagonist because she doesn't show growth. She wanders through the novel, a perpetual victim--in spite of her supernatural abilities--and finally dies, completely regressed into a state of childhood, calling for her mother (whole end of the chapter "Prom Night".)

While I could argue that Carrie does, in some ways, fit the Aristotelian models of "good," "appropriate", and "consistent" the character seems to fail on the criteria of "like" or typicality (is that a word?) Carrie is terrifyingly "other" and becomes difficult to identify with, as a result. On a surface level, anyone who ever felt unlovely and unloved as an adolescent should be able to form some sort of emotional commitment to her...but she proves so terribly alien in terms of her scarred psyche, that I think she beomes ultimately inaccessible.

I don't think that has to be the case, with characters who typify "other" (Van Vogt's character, Jemmie, from Slan, comes to mind, for example--I found that character extremely accessible, although undeniably "other"..."

Hmmm...now I'm just maundering, and I still haven't adressed Sue Snell as a potential protagonist. Think I'll leave off, before boring everyone to death.

Mac

qatz

03-03-2004, 02:10 PM

what? mac, you done good.

MacAl Stone

03-03-2004, 02:13 PM

Just for the sake of clarity, "Uncle Jim", how are you defining a "protagonist?"

Mac

qatz

03-03-2004, 02:15 PM

what?

stefpub

03-03-2004, 04:03 PM

Tell me, Stefpub, have you run through the example games in Logical Chess Move by Move yet?
I confess I haven't. I will, I honestly want to.
But understand that I live in such a remote country - I have to crank up the steam engine to get one hour of internet a day - that Amazon takes weeks to deliver its books to me.

Could you give me some hints before the helpful guide arrive?
I'm not sure I can keep my characters talking that long.

MyrandaWrites

03-03-2004, 04:23 PM

Oh I know, and I thank you for taking the time to answer what seems like an elementary school question.

I did read your description of paragraphs and understand what you mean in general.

My refined question then is this; how fine does the distinction between paragraphs have to be, and is the division always black and white? Can two separate authors take the same chapter of a book and divide it into paragraphs differently and both still be correct?

If you say yes, my question will be answered to my great satisfaction, because I’ll know it’s not just me.

For example, I might write a chapter about my Seeing Eye dog, and I’m not sure whether to start a new paragraph when I am finished describing his physical characteristics and begin discussing his personality. What if the book is entirely about how this dog has given my life meaning? It wouldn’t be all one paragraph, of course, but I mean there must be degrees of “new thoughts”.

What about my entire post here, for another example? Did I divide it properly into paragraphs, should it be only one, or does it depend on something else?

James D Macdonald

03-03-2004, 09:56 PM

First ... Fame!

This thread is mentioned here: <a href="http://www.sillybean.net/archives//001460.html" target="_new">Writing and Publishing 101</a> (Excellent list of links.)

We've been <a href="http://boingboing.net/2004_02_01_archive.html#107716444588285115" target="_new">Boing-Boinged</a>!

<hr>

Now, another useful link: Gene Wolfe's <a href="http://subnet.pinder.net/onwriting/index.asp?name=./References/19970101wolfe.htm" target="_new">rules for writers</a>. (Mr. Wolfe, aside from his virtues as a writer, is best known as the inventor of the Pringle potato chip.)

<hr>

To other topics:

A hero, to my mind, is someone in your story who has died and returned from the land of the dead. This may be partly or entirely symbolic.

A protagonist, to my mind, is the person driving the plot, the one whose action or inaction causes the larger action of the book.

<hr>

How to get characters in motion, how to move them to useful positions:

This is easy: Get them moving! Get your pieces off the back rank. You will learn through experience that the best place for a knight is KB3 or QB3. While gaining that experience, just move them. You'll see what works and what doesn't.

Here's another hint: Put your characters through one-way doors. When you've moved a pawn you can't move it back.

And one more hint: If the positions of all the pieces and pawns repeats thrice the game ends. In a stalemate. Do different stuff.

And recall that all the maneuvering, all the knight-forks, all the pins, have one goal: Checkmate the other king. If you don't have the climax, you don't have diddly.

<hr>

Now paragraphing: There can be disagreements between authors on breaking the same text into paragraphs. There frequently are disagreements between authors and copyeditors on paragraphing.

Paragraphing can be for rhythm as well as for pure grammar. You are the artist. You are conveying thoughts. How you convey thoughts is part of your artistry.

<hr>

Last: The best way to learn to write a novel is by writing a novel. Has everyone done their two hours today?

James D Macdonald

03-03-2004, 10:19 PM

From another thread (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessage?topicID=418.topic):

<blockquote>
<hr>
You want to see a plot with juice? Try <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0375411259/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Red Harvest</a> by Dashiell Hammett. (I highly recommend this book -- it's got real page-turning power, and Hammett is a major American stylist.)

That plot has since resurfaced in <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0780022513/madhousemanor" target="_new">Yojimbo</a>, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6304698747/madhousemanor" target="_new">Last Man Standing</a>, and <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008RH3L/madhousemanor" target="_new">Miller's Crossing</a> to name just three movies. I'm certain that some or all of that plot has appeared in other novels, in short stories, in movies, and TV dramas.

When you have written the book, you have made the plot your own. The plot is the framework that holds up the tent of your novel, but it is not the novel.
<hr>
</blockquote>

Beaver

03-04-2004, 01:37 AM

I don't know if i missed it earlier in the thread (i don't think i did), but here's my question.

What is the best way to establish credibility and make the reader believe that you are telling them the truth? Especially when writing about science and sf?

Oh i also have a post under the share your work... its my first chapter to my new undertaking. Any criticism would be welcome.<a href="http://pub43.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm31.showMessage?topicID=206.topic" target="_new">first chapter of my new story</a>

Beaver

03-04-2004, 01:43 AM

lets try this again...

first chapter (http://pub43.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm31.showMessage?topicID=206.topic)

James D Macdonald

03-04-2004, 05:13 AM

Hi, Beaver --

Best way to establish credibility and get the readers to trust you is to tell them the truth. Don't make up anything you can look up. Do the math.

On your chapter... do you Really Really want me to do a full edit on it?

qatz

03-04-2004, 07:02 AM

I have no idea what Beaver wants, but to see you do a full edit on anyone's work would be Incredibly Educational, and I'm all for it!

Beaver

03-04-2004, 07:38 AM

Im actually scared about you doing an edit on my chapter. But if you ever get the time im sure it will help. Worst case senario is that it sucks and i need to start over...

Beaver

ChunkyC

03-04-2004, 08:18 AM

Better Uncle Jim performs literary CSI on it than a generic rejection letter that tells you nothing other than 'no thanks'.

If Uncle Jim is willing, and you are willing, Beaver, I echo qatz's assessment of the educational merit of the exercise for all of us.

Beaver

03-04-2004, 09:31 AM

Im ok with it... i wouldn't have posted it if I didnt want feedback.

I've been cooking dinner for the past hour (Fish and green beans, yum!) I keep checking back, I was wondering if Uncle Jim would or not. That would be very valuable feedback. I'd be honored!

Beaver

James D Macdonald

03-04-2004, 10:55 AM

Right.

Drop on down to <a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm31.showMessage?topicID=206.topic" target="_new">p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm31.showMessage?topicID=206.topic</a>.

I'm going to take this thing one paragraph at a time, which means a series of ... 23 posts. At least.

James D Macdonald

03-05-2004, 12:36 AM

"Style" is what you can't help doing.

Every word should advance the plot, support the theme, or reveal character. Better words do two of these things. The best do all three.

envygreen

03-05-2004, 02:10 AM

any interest in working over a <a href=http://pub43.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm31.showMessage?topicID=210.topic>'finished' short story</a>? or are we focusing on chapters/novels for critique?

i'd like to see a side by side of a pro looking at both, especially a pro such as yourself who has stated that they are two different animals.

whoa! gene wolfe! (he's on my 'hero' list too. <a href=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312890176/qid=1078425065//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/102-1536396-7579330?v=glance&n=507846>the book of the new sun</a> series is awesome)

finally, my random question of the week. what non writing activities are important for a writer? skip the obvious, such as reading about current science for a sci fi writer, but are there any MUST PERFORM activities besides B.I.C.? (and yes, i got my two hours in yesterday, but please don't ask about last week, Teach! I swear the dog ate it!)

-rob

[edit] just noticed that this is under the 'Writing Novels' section. sorry, i'm blind to the obvious. also, for the record, EZboard hates me, and i've edited this post a good 15 times unsucessfully. then i noticed the 'formatting' radio buttons, switched to pure html, got it first try. wish they would fix the 'page not found' when you click submit or edit.

MyrandaWrites

03-05-2004, 03:57 AM

I've been getting so much out of the "Learning to Write with Uncle Jim" area (and elsewhere in the water cooler). I guess the best things in life really can be free. (not enough of them, unfortunately). I tried posting this before but my "request to send" just stood there, is there a waiting list? Sorry if it posts twice.

qatz

03-05-2004, 05:42 AM

It's called the "pathetic fallacy" because ascribing human characteristics to animals or forces of nature is fallacious, and it's pathetic. Personification works well in cartoons, but does not really belong in more serious writing. This is the one part of Jim's edits to Beaver's story that Beaver seemed to reject out of hand. Pride of authorship can be a terrible burden. In my case, I struggled with a conversation between my tiger and a Buddhist monk, one that I dearly loved, so much that I asked the assembled brethren and sistren what to do about it in a thread on this board. There were good suggestions, but only Jim came out and said, maybe you'll end up cutting it. In the long run, it might not belong; thus your present difficulty. Well, that was anathema to me. I'm just here to report that the tiger, disgusted with the way that talk turned out on paper, convinced me to dispense with it just the other night. The author is often the last one to know the truth.

James D Macdonald

03-05-2004, 05:58 AM

And more excellent links at Writing Links & Links for Writers (http://www.internet-resources.com/writers/wrlinks-fiction.htm)

reph

03-05-2004, 06:13 AM

It's called the pathetic fallacy because ascribing feelings to things is fallacious; from Greek pathos, "passion" or "suffering."

qatz

03-05-2004, 10:58 AM

yes, true, i wuz bein' less technical

James D Macdonald

03-05-2004, 01:00 PM

Recall that some time back <a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessageRange?topicID=257.to pic&start=285&stop=285" target="_new">I mentioned the Pathetic Fallacy</a>, and the way it keeps turning up in <a href="http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004641.html#004641" target="_new">slush</a>.

This is true. An awful lot of slush starts out with personification of inanimate objects. If you can make it work this is okay. But be brutally honest with yourself about whether you've made it work.

HapiSofi

03-05-2004, 01:05 PM

A writer in another conference asked how to write sex scenes. I answered it as well as I could, and Jim asked if I'd re-post the message here.

History and theory:

1. Explicit sex scenes and serious literature have always had an on-again off-again relationship; for instance, they spent the nineteenth century pretending they'd never met each other. The upshot of this has never been that people stopped writing and reading about sex. What it meant was that they did it in books and magazines whose existence was taken note of far more often by the legal system than by the literary canon.

Low pay, anonymous publication, effectively no copyright protection, and the threat of arrest, don't make for good professional writing; but since attempts to suppress its publication didn't suppress the public's desire to read it, the censorship era's artificial scarcity of erotica simply meant that people took whatever they could get, bad or good. It was very much like the situation that produced the the rotgut whisky and bathtub gin of the Prohibition era, which were saleable only because better hootch and normal distribution channels had been suppressed.

Since there was no percentage in making erotic writing any better than it had to be, the marginal characters who published and distributed it didn't particularly care about its quality. It just had to do the job. A lot of appallingly bad books got into print (as well as a few that were better than almost anyone noticed). This further emphasized the division between literature and erotica.

Thing was, both forms might well be written by the same writers. In the days before tie-in novels, some authors made ends meet by cranking out smut, and in the process picked up its diction and conventions. Then, when censorship loosened up and it became possible to have sex scenes in real books (and what a bacchanalia there was for a few years!), that writing style was the one in their repertoire labeled "how to write about sex."

Most of the sex scenes you've ever read will have been influenced by that commercial porn writing style. Think of it as a nightmare from which we're still trying to awaken.

2. One more useful principle is that there are three subjects almost everyone thinks they know enough about: politics, pop music, and sex. You already know how you rate your fellow citizens' political beliefs and musical tastes, so you can probably infer the rest. What this means to you as a writer is that if you actually study this subject, and put some work into learning how to write it well, you'll be ahead of the game.

Practical issues:

Most people have their attention in the wrong place when they're writing sex scenes. They may be metaphorically looking away from their work because the subject makes them uncomfortable, or they may be too deep into the fantasy experience to get it out properly onto the page. In their different ways, both approaches make for bad prose.

What follows is the full-scale overdocumented first-timer method for writing a sex scene. As you become more familiar with the form, you won't have to do quite so much advance work. Incidentally, the advice that follows is also good for writing battle scenes, fast-moving violent action, complex magical transformations, and other set pieces.

1. Plan the action like Eisenhower planning D-Day. Why are you including this scene? What is its emotional tone? What is it intended to establish? Does the action in the scene actually establish that? Is the action consistent with the characters? (Nothing kills a characterization deader faster than a misconceived sex scene.)

Construct a timeline. Draw a diagram of the setting. Work out a list of things that are going to happen and things that are going to get said. If you don't have a good visual imagination, wait for an afternoon when everyone's out of the house, then rehearse the actions. Make sure they all make sense and are physically possible. Be doubly careful about exotic and/or outdoor settings.

Make sure you're not trying to make the scene do too much. If it's intended to do too little, either cut it out, or figure out something useful for it to do. This is fiction. Anything that doesn't contribute is a drag on the whole.

A few evocative actions, gestures, and details will work better than too many. Your readers will fill in the rest. If you want to see an illustration of this, watch the scene at the end of episode 109 in the sixth season of Buffy. There's just barely enough physical detail shown for you to tell what they're doing with the plumbing, so to speak. Most of the focus is on how it's happening, as these two characters interact with each other and with their physical environment. What the whole scene is about is this extremely intense moment of interaction between them, and its implications for the storyline. It's part of the overall ongoing story, only this part of it is being told in a series of succinct, concrete images of physical action.

2. Now that you know what they're going to be doing, you have to figure out how you're going to explain it.

This is going to sound counterintuitive, but you want to keep the descriptive language as plain, simple, and lucid as possible. Seriously. Sex scenes are emphatically not the place to get fancy with the purple prose. You're writing about sex for an audience of primates. You don't have to dress it up to get them to pay attention to what's going on, and fancied-up language will just get you into trouble.

a. You're allowed one metaphor and one simile per scene. It's best if you never use them.

Watch out for buried metaphors: figures of speech that have become so standardized that we don't think of them as figurative language: Mark leaned over and whispered a suggestion. Marcia initially looked intrigued, then worried and distressed. "I'm sorry," she said; "I just can't swallow that."

Watch out for common words that have strong sexual connotations: hard, come, ejaculate, etc. And don't name your character Dick.

b. Don't use that horrible coy figurative language you see in bodice-ripper novels, where his hardness and/or maleness hovers in the vicinity of her softness and/or wetness and/or openness and both parties hyperventilate like crazy while docking procedures are being negotiated, whereupon !!! *IT* !!! happens in some hypothetical subjunctive null-space, and then both parties come in a burst of metaphors.

If you can't stand saying what you're saying, don't say it. It's possible to do a perfectly good sex scene without mentioning the mechanics, if you prefer, and it's far better not to mention them at all than to put see-through lace-ruffled sex cozies on all the naughty bits.

c. Don't use that dreadful flattened-out cliche-ridden language you get in hacked-out naughty books (see earlier remarks on the history of the form), where (among other sins) they came up with endless stupid synonyms to disguise the fact that they were essentially using the same nouns and verbs over and over and over again.

As a rule of thumb, if the language you're using starts sounding like any other sex scene you've ever read, you probably need to rewrite that passage, because almost all sex scenes are dreadful. John D. Macdonald has written some decent ones.

Breasts are not like melons; neither are they like billiard balls. Breasts are tauter and nipples are harder in a state of arousal, but that's relative; they still feel like a baggie full of cooked oatmeal. Nipples do not go spung! Female genitalia are not naturally mossy. Nobody has a penis like a braunschweiger, though they may have a schlong like a braunschweiger. Furthermore, a penis may be a c ock, and for humorous effect it may even be a throbbing waga, but it is never a turgid, engorged, or empurpled member. The word "raging" is deeply suspect, as is "sword". Burning loins are Right Out.

Never write a scene in which a female character admires her own breasts in the mirror -- or, worse, thinks, "Gee, it's great having breasts; it means that any time I want to cop a feel, I've got one with me, instead of having to go find someone else who has one." (I actually saw that one in a published book.) Your female readers will at minimum be snickering at you, and you may never recover your credibility with them.

If body parts appear to be conducting operations entirely on their own, you have gone wrong.

d. Listen closely while you and your sweetie are having sex. Write dialogue that sounds like that.

e. Don't attempt to invent amusingly wicked perversions if you've never participated in same. I'm serious. Straight vanilla types never get this stuff right. Usually they wind up writing dumb scenes where people make lubricious faces at each other while playing unconvincing games with food. This is one of the many aspects of writing that's improved by doing a little experimentation at home. If you're writing scenes where people are messing around with champagne or chocolate sauce or popsicles, talk your sweetie into helping you stage these scenes in real life. See if they're actually erotic, not to mention feasible. If they aren't, don't write them.

(Popsicles. Such a bad idea. Remember how you put ice on an injury to help numb it? Same effect, and the high sugar content leads to yeast infections.)

(And the gerbil story? Don't believe it. Don't pass it on, either.)

f. If you're thinking of writing about the kinkier stuff, there are two big reasons to avoid areas where you don't actually know what you're talking about. One is that some of your readers will know, and you'll lose credibility with them at a catastrophic rate. The idea is not to have your readers muttering "Uh huh. Tell me again where they're supposed to have placed that attachment point?" or "Not without an extension cord, you don't," or "Turn it around and use the handle instead," or "That will only work in zero gee."

The other reason to not mess around with stuff you don't understand is that some poor fool could get the impression that you know what you're doing, try to imitate it, and do themselves or their partner an injury. This issue comes up for debate amongst writers of erotica. Some argue for the legitimacy of having weird, unrealistic, or impossible sex in works of fiction. Others argue that in a society where reliable information about this stuff is not always available, and so much misinformation is floating around loose, it's irresponsible to lead your readers into potential error.

You'll choose as you will. I'm strongly in favor of caution. I'd just as soon we never again saw a story in which characters are strung up by their hands or feet, or held by ropes that are under tension, for more than a minute or two; and I'd just as soon we didn't give readers stupid ideas involving bullwhips, vacuum cleaner hoses, long-necked glass bottles, autoasphyxiation, sex play while driving, or sticking untested objects up one's bottom. The story you're trying to tell here should not be the kind EMTs, paramedics, and ER personnel swap over an after-hours beer.

g. Cultivate a dirty-minded friend who spent a good chunk of his or her youth in dissolute pursuits, and have them beta-read your manuscripts.

This is good advice for everyone, not just authors who are trying to write sex scenes. There's a very early Georgette Heyer historical novel wherein Simon Coldheart, owner of the local castle, is indifferent to the charms of women, but has a record number of young pageboys in his service. They hero-worship him, sleep in his bedchamber, share his meals, etc., and he's visibly fond of them. In the book, Simon's neighbors keep saying "He's so good with children; what a pity he hasn't found the right woman yet! What a wonderful father he'll be someday." And as I read it, all I could think was, "Nope, unh-uh; that's not what his neighbors are saying about him." What young Georgette Heyer needed was a formerly dissolute friend to tell her what Simon's neighbors were really saying.

h. You know how reading someone's novel will tell you a lot about how they view the world, what they believe, etc., even if they don't mean to tell you that about themselves? Double and redouble that if you're writing sex scenes.

And that's enough for now.

MacAl Stone

03-05-2004, 01:06 PM

Okay, I tried, but I can't just leave it alone...
James MacDonald said:
A hero, to my mind, is someone in your story who has died and returned from the land of the dead. This may be partly or entirely symbolic.
This seems like we could play a bit fast and loose with it. I love that. Also hearkens to the classic notion of Epic Hero, and Odysseus as a template for "hero." Okay.

Uncle Jim also said:
A protagonist, to my mind, is the person driving the plot, the one whose action or inaction causes the larger action of the book.
Not to beat a dead horse...Sue Snell is the protag of Carrie because her actions drive the whole novel. Sue takes part in the mock-stoning with tampons in the opening shower scene, then feels bad, browbeats poor Tommy into asking Carrie to the Spring Ball, thinking to atone for her actions. She does this with clear knowledge that she is tampering with Carrie's life. Tommy asks her what good she thinks it will do, and Sue tells him, "Why . . . It'll bring her out of her shell, of course. Make her . . . " (page 82, 1975 Signet ed.) Tommy calls Sue on her hubris, but Sue won't back down.

This sets up the whole chain of events that culminates in the pig's blood episode, which sets Carrie off on her final rampage, the climax of the novel.

King does a nice thing here, by the way, and returns to the opening shower scene, and gives the reader a quick snapshot of Sue, in that scene, from Carrie's perspective.

Interestingly enough, Sue then experiences Carrie's death:
"Sue tried to pull away, to disengage her mind, to allow Carrie at least the privacy of her dying, and was unable to. She felt she was dying herself and did not want to see this preview of her own eventual end. . . .
(she's dying o my god i'm feeling her die)
And then the light was gone. . ."

Thus catapulting Sue to the lofty ranks of "hero" and indeed she has undergone a transformation. No longer the same girl who just went aolng with the horrible pranks that plagued Carrie, Sue tells off the State Investigatory Board, when she feels demeaned by their repeated questions.

So now I promise to let it be. Thanks for your indulgence everyone. We should all just be grateful Uncle Jim didn't use an example from Pet Sematary
. . . I wrote my master's thesis on that one :rolleyes

MacAl Stone

03-05-2004, 01:54 PM

forgot to cite those last couple of references...the return to the shower scene happens on page 230 (1975 Signet edition) . . . and Sue's experience of Carrie's death occurs on page 232.

And for what it's worth, I thought the novel should've ended on page 233, without the subsequent "Wreckage" chapter.

BTW, been faithfully putting in BIC time, have reached some 50ish pages. My personal purgatory. This is the point where I can't resist the temptation to reread. Then I have to change stuff. Then three years later, I am still re-reading and changing stuff on those same 50 pages. Three years after that, I find the original 50 pages in hard copy, realize that they were MUCH better than what I have rewritten them into. So the whole thing goes into a drawer and I write a new 50 pages to agonize over.

So I'm not gonna reread. Just gonna plow onward.

Sorry, had a little "true confessions" moment...

James D Macdonald

03-05-2004, 10:09 PM

Thanks, Hapi. That was truly useful.

<hr>

MacAlStone, you're moving from opening to mid-book. Keep going!

ChunkyC

03-05-2004, 11:21 PM

I too would like to thank Hapi for that superb post. I have ventured into that territory in the book I'm currently working on and Hapi's advice will be front and centre as I revise.

LiamJackson

03-06-2004, 03:25 AM

<<I too would like to thank Hapi for that superb post. >>

What CC said.

Thanks for the tutorial. Much appreciated.

MacAl Stone

03-06-2004, 01:21 PM

Let me chime in my thanks, also. After reading this post I went searching through my memory and my bookcase for notable (either good or bad) sex scenes.

I concluded that there are many more completely forgettable sex scenes than any other kind...note for myself on yet another thing to avoid.

But I did happen across Barbara Kingsolver's Prodigal Summer, which I read quite some time ago. I think this is one of the hands-down sexiest books I've read . . . but it's in no way pornographic.

The actual sex scenes have hardly any mechanics described.

jeffspock

03-07-2004, 06:12 PM

Jim,

A late response to your request (http://pub43.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessageRange?topicID=257.to pic&start=580&stop=580); it's my pleasure to tell you which bits of advice I took.

First off, I took this one:

"If your last line is the weakest one in the story, cut it."

That made me re-align the forces that led up to the conclusion, and prepared a more integrated climax.

Then I rewrote the ending and did this:

"Ask your beta readers for their opinions."

I agree, it always helps, so I then did this:

"Write a new story, then come back to this one."

When I came back and re-penned the last third of the story (including changing a key plot point so that it made more sense), it fell into place.

Then, of course, I took it out of double-spaced-Courier-12 and into single-spaced-Times-New-Roman-12 and read it out loud to myself. Twice.

Ta-da! Something I can be proud of.

Thanks again for the advice.

Jeff

P.S. One thing I could not do is this:

"The best fix might be: Consider the writing of it as experience. Write a new story, this time with a strong climax. The climax is where you reward the reader for believing your tissue of lies."

I had to make this story work, because it came from a set of experiences and touched on a subject (dance and the art of dance) that I doubt I will ever treat again. It's an idea I love and a one-shot deal, so I damned the torpedoes and did it anyway

jeffspock

03-07-2004, 06:25 PM

Hah! Before I considered the story done, I did a search in the text for:

- words that ended in "-ly." If the word wasn't "only" it had to have a damn good reason for being there. I can't tell you the number of really's, actually's, and suddenly's that were slaughtered without mercy.

- the words 'were' and 'was' and 'is.' If they weren't in conversation, I got out the big axe again.

It was a beautiful, cleansing feeling, like staying in the sauna too long then going outside to lie in the snow and finally going back in and having a cold beer.

Dancre

03-08-2004, 09:01 AM

my biggest pet pev is phrases like "Look," she said ethusiatically, angrily, pleasantly. Arggg!!! but good job, jeff. it's always exciting when you use tech and it all comes together," she said pleasantly.:heart
kim

pina la nina

03-09-2004, 05:40 AM

Finally made it to page 32! I linked here indirectly via Making Light and then 101 and have been absorbed by this discussion for days, thinking I would never catch up - yet here I am! Thanks to all and particularly James (Jim? Mr Macdonald?) for a good read.

It's nice to see a community interested in good writing, and talking about what makes it work. I especially like the passages quoted from texts, be they MH Clark or Beaver, good practice for reading with a critical mind (I also like the lime pie analogy and found it apt, and delicious.)

My question lingers from a December post that, as far as I could see, never got expanded on. I know this is ancient history for folks following this thread in real time, but it seems like there's a finishing up of loose ends right now and maybe it's a good time?

Today's Aphorism
Your readers have six senses. So should your characters!

Not being clairvoyant and having deprived my book's characters of such a gift, I'm wondering if I'm missing something here. What is this sixth? Sense of humor? Please tell me more! Thanks!

James D Macdonald

03-09-2004, 06:28 AM

The six senses are:

Sight
Hearing
Taste
Touch
Smell
Proprioception

<HR>

And welcome, pina la nina! (I'm Jim to my friends, and I hope everyone here is a friend.)

pina la nina

03-09-2004, 07:45 AM

That's my new word for the day, thanks Jim! Here I was thinking about something Completely Different. Glad you cleared that up!

So you mean things like dizziness or vertigo? Being spatially oriented?

Can I ask a personal question? Do you find that its hard to read for pleasure? I'm feeling like since I started reading with my writer's mind turned on I am more and more likely to want to hurl those books (is nausea a proprioception?)

Just finished Jeffrey Eugenides's Middlesex (Pulitzer Prize Winner, etc) and found it suffered from interminable Mid-Book syndrome. At least the sentences were incredible, but I do take your point that it's hard for great prose alone to carry a story. Story, folks. Sometimes we writers so love to be wordsmiths. That's one of the brilliant things you've done with this thread, to emphasize how satisfying a story is to hear/read. Bravo!

James D Macdonald

03-09-2004, 12:27 PM

Proprioception is awareness of where your body is in relationship to itelf. How you can tell how close your hand is to your leg, even with your eyes closed.

Yes, I read for pleasure -- all the darned time (Today, Post Mortem by Patricia Cornwell). But I also see books differently than I used to. I might say "Wow, the author sure slipped in some exposition there!"

Part of the trick is now to have both a writer's mind (to see how other writers write their books, as well as how you write yours) and a reader's mind to tell how your book will read to a non-writer.

(Think of a magician doing tricks for a regular audience, and that same magician doing the same routine for an audience of magicians. Each of those audiences will look for different things, and will be impressed by different things.)

wwwatcher

03-09-2004, 05:41 PM

I finally got to page 32 and I have nothing to say.

Except it took me sooooooooooooo long because my internet time has been cut back...
Yes! I am making excuses!
And my excuse is...
My internet time has been cut back because I've been writing for 2 hours a day!!!!!!!!!! HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm just a-cranking out the children's short stories. I may run out of ideas soon and be forced to start a novel or two!

Seriously, the amount of valuable information on this board is absolutely wonderful. Thank you for starting it Jim. And thanks to the other contributors as well.

I'll just sit here quietly now and wait for the crumbs to fall from the plates of the Gods!

Take Care,
Faye

Dancre

03-10-2004, 12:58 AM

Proprioception is awareness of where your body is in relationship to itelf. How you can tell how close your hand is to your leg, even with your eyes closed.

Uncle Jim, can you please give an example of this in writing? I don't think i've ever come across something like this. maybe i did and i'm just not seeing it. I'm not sure how to write something like this. thanks

kim

James D Macdonald

03-10-2004, 02:07 AM

Goodness, Dancre -- Beaver used it in his sample first chapter...!

Dancre

03-10-2004, 02:19 AM

ok, now i know what you're taking about. thanks
kim

Beaver

03-10-2004, 06:29 AM

Dear Jim,

It's Beaver again and I have been writing and rewriting (i cant help rewriting) several chapters from the story you edited. (Thanks a lot by the way, really gave me some insight into my writing style). I was just wondering, if someone edits your work, and you want to use a sentence or even a few sentences from that edit, is that a plagiarism of some sorts? or should i just rewrite the entire thing again? Just curious... thanks

Beaver :hat

James D Macdonald

03-10-2004, 09:29 AM

An edited work is still yours.

jerir12

03-10-2004, 10:24 AM

Dear Jim,

You edit registered members WIP's?

btw, what is a word count length for a novella?

I'm shooting for 50,000 words for a novel.

My novel deals with a super hero similar to Superman so I don't know if that is fantasy or sci fi? The character is transformed into a super hero when wearing an Egyptian bracelet.

As of today I have 0ver 36, 000 words drafted. By the time I complete the draft there will be close to 40,000 words or a little over. perhaps even close to 45,000.

Oh, I feel wonderful about nearing the end of this WIP. It has taken me way to long to get there. Lately, I've BIC for several hours a day. Today I wrote from page 182 to 191. I have about 1 scene to go to complete the WIP.

Do I dare say, YAY!

jeir12

www.angelfire.com/ca6/boys (http://www.angelfire.com/ca6/boys)

James D Macdonald

03-10-2004, 10:39 AM

jeir12 -- nope, I don't edit folks' manuscripts (except for educational reasons, as the spirit moves me). Your best course is to learn to edit your own.

Novella: at least 17,500 words but less than 40,000 words.

HapiSofi

03-10-2004, 11:51 AM

Envygreen, how long is your story?

jerir12

03-10-2004, 12:09 PM

hi there,

I can't give you an exact length of my novella/novel. I have 1 or 2 scenes to go to complee the draft.

Then like I said in my post I need to add more words to get word count even close to 50,000 words.

jerir12

Beaver

03-10-2004, 12:21 PM

Thanks Jim,

I've rewrote some of the chapter but i found myself incorporating large parts of your edit. I appreciate it and good to know im not doing something wrong...

Beaver

P.S. - congratz on your story progress jier12, makes me feel like I need to be writing right now. I would be if i didnt have all of this homework.

James D Macdonald

03-10-2004, 12:59 PM

jerir12, don't add words. Add story.

jerir12

03-10-2004, 04:46 PM

ooops Jim.

Adding story is what I actually meant. Blush.

pina la nina

03-10-2004, 10:39 PM

HapiSofi - I just wanted to let you know that I found myself writing two sex scenes in a short story the other day and I really appreciate your humor and advice regarding them. It was really funny to me to discover your post just when I needed it. I'll keep those things in mind when I go back for the edit.

It is sort of amazing, at least to me, how little one really needs particular body parts in the deal (fiction not irl, obviously.) Seems like things are juicier if the reader gets free reign in terms of certain details. One assumes they are passingly familiar with anatomy and don't need to be told that there are "members", let alone whether they throb.

Jim - thanks for clarifying the proprioception definition for me. All your help on these pages has been so valuable. I hope you'll be continuing to post here for some time to come.

AnneStJohn

03-10-2004, 10:49 PM

Uncle Jim,

While at Amazon.com the other day, I noticed that you wrote a Spiderman book. What are your feelings/thoughts on writing for a specific genre- where you write the story, and maybe some brand new characters, but include characters that already exist in the mind, hearts, (copyrights) of others? It seems that people love this "fanfiction" and consume it regularly and some authors have made good careers off of writing this type of novel. My god, how many Star Trek, Buffy, and X-men novels line the shelves of your local (giant, mega-chain) bookstore? But is it more difficult to get published for this type of work? I imagine some of it can be real bad. But what about the good stuff?

I'd also like to take this moment to congratulate Beaver on being a brave soul and thank both you and Uncle Jim for one of the most educational sections of this thread. Thanks to you both!

Anne

James D Macdonald

03-10-2004, 11:03 PM

But is it more difficult to get published for this type of work?

Nope, easiest thing in the world. But they have to ask you. You don't write the book then submit it, like with normal publishing. Some cheerful editor calls you on the phone and says "Can you write a Spiderman book? Say, by Tuesday?" And you say ... "Sure."

This is getting closer to the slimey underbelly of traditional publishing here, but I have to say, the money's nice. It can keep you going as a writer while you're working on your regular stuff. Those two Spiderman books -- one was written in a week, the other over 72 hours. The dangers are two: you can be seduced by the money so you start doing them to the exclusion of your regular writing, and you can pick up bad habits that carry over to your regular writing.

The Bad stuff is as bad as you'd think (though you're talking pro writers here, who can do <a href="http://thepulp.net/PulpCompanion/03summer/plot.html" target="_new">story</a> on demand, so it's usually not as bad as the worst of the slush heap). The Good stuff can be darn good. (See, for example, Mike Ford's <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671038591/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">How Much for Just the Planet</a>.)

envygreen

03-11-2004, 12:10 AM

Hapi:

3400 words or 15 pages double spaced. I posted it <a href=http://pub43.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm31.showMessage?topicID=210.topic>over in the share your work section</a>.

if anyone wants to comment, i've got my asbestos lined armor on, so don't worry about my feelings. :) i much prefer an honest 'it sucks and here's why' to 'ohhh, it was... neat, but i'm not into that sort of thing'.

-Rob

DaveDuggins

03-11-2004, 02:41 AM

Holy smokes, you're THAT James Macdonald? Man, I loved Price of the Stars! I'm new to this board, so ... glad to meet you!

DaveDuggins

03-11-2004, 05:58 AM

Courier is the accepted standard. It may not look pretty, but it's big, open and easy to read.

onlyemarie

03-11-2004, 06:46 AM

(Disregard, my brain is off today! :) )

Stephenie Hovland

03-11-2004, 06:48 AM

Have you read all the posts in this thread? Outlining is mentioned (more than mentioned).

Stephenie

HapiSofi

03-11-2004, 07:40 AM

You too? I loved that book. I've lost track of how many times I've re-read it.

James D Macdonald

03-11-2004, 09:28 AM

I live for my art.

qatz

03-11-2004, 09:34 AM

I art for my live.

Beaver

03-11-2004, 10:38 AM

Jim,

Hey just wondering...

I took out the excessive personification in the chapter... but as far as the rest of my writing goes, i like to use metaphor and other figurative language. I guess my question is: should all figurative language be kept to a minimum? does it hurt the flow of the story? or is some ok when describing setting and characters?

thanks,

Beaver :eek

James D Macdonald

03-11-2004, 10:49 AM

Readers are perverse things.

Some will take your figurative language literally. Others will take your literal language figuratively.

"Her eyes flew around the room before falling to the floor" can provoke ... unusual ... images in some readers' minds.

The test is to try.

HapiSofi

03-11-2004, 11:14 AM

If you can avoid figurative language, you should. Think of your writing as a picture you're trying to make come clear for your onlookers. Figurative language is a little picture of something else you paste in at a spot where you can't make the real picture come clear any other way. It's a useful trick, but it doesn't take more than a few of those for your picture to start looking less coherent overall.

A possibly useful observation: I love English teachers dearly, but they're way too easily impressed by figurative language. I don't know why, and of course I excuse them on the grounds of their multitudinous other virtues; but you'll almost never see one speak in favor of leaving out some pretty simile or metaphor. If you're getting some part of your feedback from one or more of them, you may want to keep that in mind.

Beaver

03-11-2004, 12:19 PM

Yeah i can see how too much too often would make for a blurry picture. Thanks for the tips. I'm working on cutting it back to a minimum. I'll save it for poetry for my girlfriend.

thanks,

Beaver;)

wwwatcher

03-11-2004, 02:59 PM

Does anyone know how much it costs to send a letter to Canada? I'm trying to buy some postage on the internet and there are 48 cents stamps on there under the international section.

And Jim are there any of your books you'd recommend that we read? (Maybe your latest one so we can help boost your sales; since you're giving us all this wonderful advice for free.)

Faye

Stephenie Hovland

03-11-2004, 08:31 PM

Faye,

I'm assuming you're in the US. Go to usps.com/tools/calculatep...atepostage (http://usps.com/tools/calculatepostage/welcome.htm?from=home&page=0061calculatepostage)

It should be able to calculate how much you need from your zip to another zip.

Stephenie

aka eraser

03-11-2004, 09:41 PM

A 48 cent stamp is what is used to send letters within Canada. Wherever you live, it will likely cost more to send mail to Canada.

James D Macdonald

03-11-2004, 10:22 PM

Faye, if you want, go to <a href="http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/" target="_new">my homepage</a> and pick a book.

LiamJackson

03-11-2004, 11:11 PM

Jim's Apocalypse Door is about as much fun as any hard-boiled supernatural thriller has ever been or will ever be. Can't go wrong with this one, Faye.

pina la nina

03-12-2004, 01:15 AM

I loved this from a book I just read: "I literally had one eye on each half of the room." Ouch!

Dancre

03-12-2004, 02:43 AM

Jim's Apocalypse Door is about as much fun as any hard-boiled supernatural thriller has ever been or will ever be. Can't go wrong with this one, Faye.

that's the one i ordered. i'm waiting for it. i read the first chapter exerpt and it seemes interesting. i like the main character. he reminds me of clint eastwood in the "Good, the bad, and the ugly".
kim

ChunkyC

03-12-2004, 04:09 AM

Hello all, I've been away with the flu, but I'm feeling much better now.

I have a question, Uncle Jim. In a story I'm working on, one of my characters witnesses an accident that takes the lives of his parents. I have him drop to his knees and scream out the word NO. In my mind I hear the vowel extended for a second or two, similar in concept to Luke Skywalker's wail when Darth Vader tells him he's his father. Is there an accepted rule for doing this sort of thing, such as extra o's, as in:

Noooo! or NOOOO!

If extra vowels are acceptable, how many is too many? Or is this a purely subjective thing?

Thanks...

ChunkyC

qatz

03-12-2004, 09:28 AM

You know that article on Outlines I kept mentioning in regard to Jim's recent comments about wanting to picture the work? I posted it a while ago in the Share Your Work board, in my own thread called "Outlines," just to add to the discussion, but forgot to point it out here until, well, now. There are certain revisions to the new one. It's still a draft waiting for its big publication moment in a writers mag (other than this one).

I understandthe link to it is pub43.ezboard.com/fabsolu...=200.topic

I don't know how to get the hypertext to work yet, but www does, right down there. thanks w!

Weren Cole

03-12-2004, 10:59 AM

Alright, thirty four pages of post later I am ready for my two cents and a couple of questions, if the group will have me.

First- Thoughts
I have noticed that the people who seem to be the more accomplished of writers who post here have several characteristics in common that I feel are paramount to making yourself a writer. Foremost is that that have a capable handle on english prose and it shows in these discussions. Second, I have noticed that all lot of you express the tendency towards insomnia. Confidence, or excessive hubris, and the ability to type well also seem like characteristics that many of you seem to share.

To hear these characteristics pronounced here makes me feel better about being a writer, I get a general feeling that I am not alone in my struggle as an artist.

I am a young writer in the middle of what I like to think of as my first novel. (I have other works and stories that I plan to publish and are in a state of almost done, but this is the one I plan to publish first) I am confident that my writing will do well, and the ideas that come across here bolster my confidence. For instance I have always devoted a couple of hours to writing, but now I have an acronymn for it (BIC) I found that I play positional chess with my characters, but to have the ananlogy related in such a way has made me go back and add a couple things to set me up for my mid-book. I also found it funny that you use ideas of chess while writing. . . I often times have my characters playing the game and the conversation they have revolves around how the pieces are moved. . . I am not sure if the mixing of the game with actual dialogue is a good idea, but I will be sure to ask my beta readers when the time comes.
I realize that the most important thing is first a rough model to work with, then the polishing is to come. I almost relish in the polishing phase, I just need to get to it. :p

A couple of questions for my dear uncle jim, I will try to keep it to the point

In terms of my positional chess I have found myself creating characters that are necessary for the advancement of plot, pawns as you will. One character, Jimmy, has a one line mention sometime in the first 20k, though he is not touch upon till what I think of as midpoint (about 40k). What do you think of bringing Jimmy in as a more prominent character in the second half? I find that without him I am stuck around mid-point, should I give him more interest (perhaps a couple of lines) earlier? And, when I do bring him in earnestly, how much is too much of a backstory to get him acquainted with the rest of the plot?

In terms of outlines I am not incredibly organized, though I find that I can push about 2k or more with just side notes that I jot down. Perhaps my mind is still young and vivacious, but I find the spinning or yarns to be the easy part, it is adding depth that takes a little more work. (That is why I relish polishing, it takes my raw story that I was excited enough to write down in the first place and give it real meaning) In this aspect I find that I do a little more outlining at the end of the work, taking what I have done already and finding where the best spots are to add foreshadowing and symbolism and symbolish of foreshadowing etc. . .

It seems after thirty four pages of post I had something else to say as well, but oh well. I just thought I'd say Hi to everyone any way.

Weren

MacAl Stone

03-12-2004, 12:38 PM

Egomaniacal Insomniac English-speaking Word-Loving speedy typists Unite!

Welcome aboard. Fresh voices are always fun. Although I don't know how seriously you ought to take any of us who don't have our own posted bibliography of published works...:x

Mac

qatz

03-12-2004, 01:07 PM

You pegged it. As for the other stuff, read my thing on outlines and listen to what Jim does (and doesn't) say. Good hello post.

wwwatcher

03-12-2004, 02:38 PM

Thanks for the two websites. They answered all my questions.

AND......

Qatz's "Outlines" post is at
pub43.ezboard.com/fabsolu...=200.topic (http://pub43.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm31.showMessage?topicID=200.topic)

Did this work?

And will "Apocalypse Door" share the crap out of me or is it just a page-turner?

Faye

Rigby Eleanor

03-12-2004, 03:03 PM

Uncle Jim,
I noticed earlier that you said:

"Novella: at least 17,500 words but less than 40,000 words."

I've seen a lot of definitions of novella/novel length on here and other places but I thought a novella was up to 60,000 words and an average sized novel was 100,000 words.

Any idea of the acceptable "average" length for a novel?
Have I written a doorstep by mistake??

AnneStJohn

03-12-2004, 10:25 PM

Folks,

Does anyone else write for a living? I write, but not what I'd LIKE to be writing- I am a grant proposal writer for a large non-profit. So I write fund-raising letters, proposals, appeals, reports, etc. Sometimes it is like writing a story- we want this money from you and if we get it, here's what we'll do with it, here's why it's great- but I essentially write non-fiction for a living. The only time I've ever been published was an academic journal. So my issue is this- sometimes because I am writing all day it is hard to get my two hours of BIC in ( I feel like my eyeballs are falling out of my head after 8 hours in front of a computer) and it is also hard for me to switch gears from grant writing to fiction writing. Any ideas or advice? Eric, aren't you a lawyer? Ever find it hard to switch from writing legal lawyer stuff to talking tigers? Anyone else?

I know I'm going to hear "just shut up and do it already" but I was wondering if anyone had little tricks they used to help with this sort of thing.

Thanks!

Anne

Tamara Siler Jones

03-12-2004, 10:53 PM

Hey now, I'm not egomaniacal!

I will tho admit to the other labels ;)

lol

MiltonPope

03-12-2004, 11:22 PM

Jim, I've bought "Logical Chess", and have started working through it. Now: which of your books would best demonstrate a plot built using your positional-chess technique?

I should mention: I'm new here, and have just spent a week going through this whole thread. Wow! and again, Wow!

--Milton

wwwatcher

03-13-2004, 06:50 AM

I've posted a piece on Sharing your Work thread about how to punctuate the character's thoughts. I seem to be wrestling with this lately.

I would appreciate it if you would give me your thoughts on this Uncle Jim and friends.

It's at pub43.ezboard.com/fabsolu...=221.topic (http://pub43.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm31.showMessage?topicID=221.topic)

Thanks

Faye

James D Macdonald

03-13-2004, 10:16 AM

A general clean-up post, before diving into a weekend that involves a heavy deadline....

ChunkyC:

<blockquote>
Noooo! or NOOOO!

If extra vowels are acceptable, how many is too many? Or is this a purely subjective thing?
</blockquote>

I wouldn't use extra vowels at all. How the character delivers the word should be obvious to the reader from the story-telling and character development to that point. "Nooooo!" is close to dialect and stage directions, both of which should be used lightly if at all.

All things are subjective, and if you make it work for you, you've made it work. Alas, spelling out "Noooooo!" and "Yesssssss!" and "Arrrrrrggghhhh!" look very much like shameless padding.

<hr>

Weren Cole

If a character is important, he/she should be mentioned early, and should be given enough to do while waiting for his Big Moment so that when the Big Moment arrives the readers don't say "Who?" and have to flip back fifty or a hundred pages to refresh their memories.

At the same time, if a character is given a name, the readers will try to hold him in mind, assuming that he'll be important later. (Thus: don't name your characters unless you want them to stay in the readers' heads where they'll take up processing power: it's like naming kittens that follow you home.)

Generally speaking, try to get by with as few characters as you can. And try to have them all on-stage and acting in the first hundred pages.

It's perfectly okay to outline after you've created the first-draft text. The outline will show you where the bumps that need to be filed off and the dips that need to be filled are.

File cards are your friends.

You'll learn how much is too much backstory by writing it, and trying it on your beta readers. But also ... imagine that you are that person. What do you actually say? Realism is also your friend. (This will help you avoid "as-you-know-Bob" dialog, and "Gentle reader" insertions.) Generally speaking, use the absolute minimum backstory necessary to keep the introduction from being completely cryptic.

<hr>

Rigby Eleanor

No, you haven't written a doorstop by accident. 400 manuscript pages is pretty reasonable.

A novel (at least, a YA novel) can start as low as 40,000 words. You won't start being saleable for an adult novel until around 60,000 words (with the standard Genius Exception: If you've written a work of genius, all bets are off).

So don't worry. As long as the words are the Right words, all's well.

<hR>

AnneStJohn

I write for a living.

What you might try is this: If you're too tired of looking at a screen to write fiction after a long day at the office, write your fiction in the morning before you go to work. Set the alarm clock early, and get one of those coffeemakers that will start a pot of coffee based on a timer so it's hot and steaming when you stumble out of bed.

<hr>

qatz:

More on Outlining soon.

James D Macdonald

03-13-2004, 10:57 AM

MiltonPope:

The chessboard is most clearly visible through the words in The Price of the Stars.

You can pick up a copy <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812517040/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">here</A>.

MacAl Stone

03-13-2004, 01:42 PM

AnneStJohn--I write sales copy for a living...press releases, ad copy, hang-tags, and especially catalogue copy for a NW sportwear company...it's actually pretty funny when I turn in copy that looks like it ought to be in my wanna-be novel -- it comes back to my desk with ???? all over it :-/ I carry a notebook everywhere I go and write odd bits of dialog, notes about story, characters, descriptions, scenes, etc., in longhand (am developing one heck of a writer's bump) that I plan to relate to the book later...I work out tricky bits in longhand, etc., because it helps me disconnect from that sort of glib, invisible-voice that I have to use for promotional stuff. Then later, I transpose it all into computer files, but by then, the real work is done and all I really have to do on the keyboard is so much typing.

Bear in mind I have started something like 5 or 6 novels and gotten as far as 150-200 pages in most all of them before stalling out for one reason or another. So I can't recommend my method as, "this is sure to work" to anyone, in good conscience.

Mac

ChunkyC

03-14-2004, 12:31 AM

Thanks for the Nooooo! tip, Uncle Jim. I guess the bottom line is: let 'em hear it in their head, each reader will put their own twist on it anyway. It has been rewritten as:

"No!"

jerir12

03-14-2004, 03:14 AM

hi QATZ,

Where exactly did you post your info on outlining?

jerir12

Weren Cole

03-14-2004, 05:05 AM

Jim,
Thanks boss, your insights prove helpful. I do have clarifying question though, approximately where is the hundred page point? I have been reading over the threads of How Long and such, but there seems to be a varying degree of theories on how an MS translates to printed form.

Also, I did not use the phrase "ego-maniacal", I was just pointing out that accomplished writers tend to have confidence in their writing, or at least a facade thereof. For instance, James always says "send it out till hell won't have it.... start your next book". If that isn't confident advice from a confident person, I don't know what is.

At the same time I would like ask a new question that goes back to POV: When the bulk of a book is written in first person, is it usually considered a memoir of the narrator? This is assuming that the author is not placing him/herself in the spot of narrator in the first place. At the same time of this 1st person POV, I have a story that runs simultaneously, parrelell with it, that is in 3rd limited (or so) that contains the narrator as character. I know that jumping from one to the other is often frowned upon, but I am of the notion that my story could pull it off. What are you thoughts?

AnneStJohn

03-14-2004, 06:13 AM

Mac,

Thanks for the insight. I also keep a notepad with me at all times at the office (I live in fear that the boss will be in here one day scrounging around for something and find it) to keep ideas in as they come to me. I've even been known to write full chapters in longhand and then transcribe them. It's a different feeling for me while I'm writing and I've never really thought about WHY I did it. But since your post, I think it is a great idea. I can type like a madwoman if I am transcribing something from a notebook on to my computer. Maybe I should try incorporating that into my BIC time- write in the notebook and transcribe later- just to mix things up after a long day in front of the computer.

Uncle Jim, sometimes I am driven out of bed early in the morning just because I can't wait to write. I had a feeling you were going to suggest I do just that EVERY day. Thank you for all your help.

Thanks to all of you out there, too! Just coming to work and checking this thread as part of my morning routine is a constant source of inspiration. You all rock!

Anne

G Jules

03-14-2004, 07:21 AM

*de-lurks*

I found this board a few months ago when I was working on yet another partial-and-outline that just wasn't going anywhere. I like sleep, so I was pretty skeptical of the early morning BIC method, but I figured I had nothing to lose.

Couple months later, I've finished a 90,000 word rough draft. The system worked. And I just wanted to say thank you.

And I'm an insomniac, too. :nerd

qatz

03-14-2004, 08:57 AM

it's in "share your work." the url is pub43.ezboard.com/fabsolu...=200.topic
but i can't get the link thing to work yet. wwwwatcher did though, in a post right up there :up . thanks w!

rtilryarms

03-14-2004, 09:28 AM

here ya go:

Outline Link (very good, btw) (http://pub43.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm31.showMessage?topicID=200.topic)

qatz

03-15-2004, 01:21 AM

Thanks, Mike!

p.s. Uncle Jim, I quote you in that outline piece with the usual attribution and, as I would like to get it published in some writers' magazine after a little more revision, may I have your permission to use said quote? I understand that you plan to return to the topic yourself soon.

James D Macdonald

03-15-2004, 09:30 AM

You may quote me, with attribution.

Eowyn Eomer

03-16-2004, 01:00 PM

With what was said waaaay back on the first page...

For the title and byline being half way down the front - what font size should be used for those and is it okay to use something other than Courier for those? And what is a byline?

For the running head - is it okay to just use your last name instead of your full name on every page? And is it really necessary to put the title? What font size and style should this heading be?

What about chapter titles? What font size should be used for chapter titles and is it okay to use something other than Courier for those?

For titles, bylines and chapter titles - are bolds, italics or underlines acceptable? And also - when should they be used within the story itself?

I'm a little hyphen crazy I think and I'm still not sure on the rule on when to use a hyphen or a semicolon or a colon. Well, I know to use a colon for lists. And a semicolon for two complete seperate sentences within one sentence. Or something like that. I should know these rules by now. :x

James D Macdonald

03-16-2004, 01:59 PM

For the title and byline being half way down the front - what font size should be used for those

Courier 10 or Courier 12

and is it okay to use something other than Courier for those?

Why would you want to?

And what is a byline?

The line that says "by [authorname]"

The name in the byline can be a pseudonym. The name in your address in the top left corner will be your real name; the name you want on the check.

For the running head - is it okay to just use your last name instead of your full name on every page?

Yes.

And is it really necessary to put the title?

Yes.

What font size and style should this heading be?

Courier 10 or Courier 12

What about chapter titles? What font size should be used for chapter titles

Courier 10 or Courier 12

and is it okay to use something other than Courier for those?

Why would you want to?

For titles, bylines and chapter titles - are bolds, italics or underlines acceptable?

Italics and underlines are the same thing (underlining is how you indicate italics). The title will appear as some kind of display font. Your name will appear as some kind of display font. Chapter titles can be italicized if the word would normally be italicized (e.g. a foriegn word or phrase). Usually all of these matters will depend on the publisher's house style. Don't waste time worrying about it.

And also - when should they be used within the story itself?

When you wish to. Italics are indicated with a single underline, bold is indicated with a double underline.

I'm a little hyphen crazy I think and I'm still not sure on the rule on when to use a hyphen or a semicolon or a colon.

Get a good grammar book. A writer who doesn't know how to punctuate is like a golfer who doesn't know how to swing. Your local bookstore will be full of test-prep books for students taking the SAT and PSAT. Those might be a place to start. And if you don't have a copy of <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/020530902X/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Strunk & White</a>, go out now, today, and get one.

Really, I'm not kidding.

Well, I know to use a colon for lists. And a semicolon for two complete seperate sentences within one sentence. Or something like that. I should know these rules by now.

Grammar is your friend. You want to make your meaning clear to your readers. Grammar helps you do that.

Here's (http://ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/index.htm) one place to start.

James D Macdonald

03-16-2004, 02:35 PM

I return briefly the the Novel-as-chess-game trope, to give you this:

<A HREF="http://www.ex.ac.uk/~dregis/DR/quotes.html" target="_new">Chess quotes</a>

Go, read them, and see how each could apply to you and your novel.

Now, get your copy of <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0713484640/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Logical Chess: Move by Move</a>. It's a writing book. Really.

aka eraser

03-17-2004, 01:19 AM

I can understand why in the "olden" days of typewritten, or even handwritten manuscripts, underlining would be used to indicate italics and bold. I don't understand why they're still used when wordprocessing programs allow us to print, or e-send the material exactly the way it should be read ie: italicized or bold.

Is it that old habits die hard or is there still some arcane aspect of the printing/publishing process that demands it?

James D Macdonald

03-17-2004, 01:23 AM

When you're typesetting, it's easy to miss italics that appear as italics in the text.

Underlines and double underlines are universally understood by typesetters, they're obvious on the page, and they're easy to add with a red pencil in the editing stage.

aka eraser

03-17-2004, 02:02 AM

Ok. Thanks Jim.

WordSoup

03-17-2004, 02:46 AM

Hi Uncle Jim and Everyone,

Sorry this question isn't about writing novels, but printing/typesetting.

15 years ago I was a typesetter, proofreader, camera operator, secretary, and all-around-Jill-of-all-trades in a few different "job shop" type printing companies, and shopper newspapers.

Now I'm looking for a 9 to 5 again, and I want to know if anything I was doing back then, is what a Copy Editor does now.

Signed - Jen - Feeling as archaic as hot lead

James D Macdonald

03-17-2004, 06:23 AM

Beats the hey out of me, Jen. Knock on doors and call folks on the phone, I'd say.

Lots of things have changed in printing over the last fifteen years. Heck, fifteen years ago being a Selectric repairman was guaranteed full time employment.

ChunkyC

03-17-2004, 06:37 AM

Heck, fifteen years ago being a Selectric repairman was guaranteed full time employment.

I work at an office supply store. Several years ago, a five or six year old girl came in with her mother, went to the office machine section, and while standing in front of an electric typewriter, said:

"Look mom! A printer with a keyboard on it!"

Uncle Jim is right. Nothing is likely to be the same as it was fifteen years ago.

James D Macdonald

03-17-2004, 06:59 AM

I've said that I wished I could show you a picture of an outline. So I think I will:

Here's an <a href="http://shop.webomator.com/cgi-bin/cpshop.cgi?storecrc=cb&target=prod&page=1&trail=&st=&p=bws01.4397456" target="_new">outline for a novel</a>.

"What?" I can hear you say. "That's a friggin' box!"

Oh, dearly beloved, let me explain.

Look at that design. Notice that it has limits; thus we know that it is art. (It also has balance, and symmetry.)

See how the threads intertwine, appearing and vanishing? See how they all form a pleasing whole?

Each of those threads is a plot thread. Each of those curves is a story arc. It's okay to write character names right on the thread, and follow that character through the story. It's okay to name each thread for a theme, too.

When I outline, I don't set up one of those "outlines" like you learn in high school: Roman Numerals, capital letters, arabic numerals, small letters. No. (I'm certain that somewhere there's a writer who uses that style of outlining and makes it work: the master rules are "Nine-and-sixty ways" and "Does it work?") Nor yet do I do a Powerpoint series of Plot Points. (Again, somewhere, I'm quite sure, some writer has done it and made it work.)

Instead, I draw pictures of my plots. And the pictures that I draw are Celtic Knotwork. (For example: our <a href="http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/wiz1head.htm" target="_new">Circle of Magic</a> series was based on a <A HREF="http://www.webomator.com/bws/data/freeart/celtic/circles.html" target="_new">circle</a>, with six nodes, each linked to the point beside it, to the point two away, and to the point three away. Once the knotwork was complete, I labeled the threads for the characters (Randal, Lys, and Walter), for attributes (hand, heart, head), and for themes (honor, loyalty, stability).)

Then I watched how the threads interacted, which ones were on top, which more buried, and wrote the books based on the interlacing of the cords. If you're wondering why certain characters appear and vanish in the various books, why first one then another is the protagonist, there's where and how the decisions were made.

Here, for your own use, are <a href="http://www.entrelacs.net/en.index.php" target="_new">workshop instructions</a> on creating your own Celtic Knotwork.

You can adapt this to single novels (as I have) by saying that each node is a chapter, and again naming characters and themes as they're moved around and through, come in contact, are brought to the fore, and are hidden again.

Listen, for I will tell you a true thing: Your readers expect order, a plan. Even if they don't know explicitly what you're doing, they will sense whether you're in control.

<a href="http://www.entrelacs.net/en.6.php" target="_new">Here</a> are some outlines that could become dandy novels.

This is the book that taught me how to draw Celtic Knotwork: <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0486229238/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Celtic Art: The Methods of Construction</a> by George Bain.

Celtic knotwork is deeply embedded in Western thought. It dates back thousands of years. It's ingrained in the hindbrains of our readers. When our readers run into it, even though they don't consciously notice it, their imaginations will play along.

And that, my friends, is one of the ways in which I outline.

qatz

03-17-2004, 07:55 AM

Well, Jim, that's beautiful. Just plain beautiful.

ChunkyC

03-17-2004, 08:21 AM

As one of Irish descent, that resonates, Uncle Jim.

reph

03-17-2004, 08:52 AM

When I darn a sock, will it affect my mind?

Prometheus76

03-17-2004, 10:21 AM

I accidentally posted this as a new topic instead of a reply in this forum, so please forgive the double post, but this is where it belongs. To wit:

The Official Authority on English Letters or some other Official-sounding Group voted Ulysses as the Greatest Book Ever Written or something like that, so I picked up a copy from my local used book dealer. I could hardly believe my eyes. Mr. Joyce used adverbs in his dialog attributions more frequently than some high school short stories I've read. To the tune of 30 or so in the first 15 pages. Here are some choice examples:

...he cried thickly.
...Stephen said gloomily.
...he said contentedly.
...asked impatiently.
...he said very earnestly.

Really, I'm just scratching the surface here, but you get the idea. Here's what I'm wondering: should I listen to that voice in my head that has a remarkable resemblance to my AP English teacher of yore and NEVER EVER EVER use "-ly" words in dialog attribution, or do I follow in the footsteps of Great Writers like Mr. Joyce and tell all the post-modernist minimalists to go drink a latte? Who should I listen to, he asked desperately. What is a young writer to do, he asked pleadingly.

P.S. I have read the entire board up to now and have been really entranced with the amount of relevant information here. The BIC has taken me to the doldrums of the mid-book, but that's a lot farther than I ever got before! Thanks, Uncle Jim!

Pthom

03-17-2004, 05:45 PM

Once upon a time, typesetters looked at the copy to be set, went to the type case, picked out letters, one at a time, and set them into lines in a rack . . . backwards!

Then, someone figured out how to do it much faster. Photographically. Big disks of 'fonts' in negative that whirled about as the type was 'set.' Yet the typesetter still looked at a "typed" copy (some of the more magnanamous ones would accept hand-written copy) and keyed in the copy on a keyboard.

In both of those methods, a system was invented to ensure the result was what was desired. You can look in most good dictionaries and see a list under "proofreader's marks."

When computers and laser printers arrived, the process got even faster. I used to take carefully prepared copy to a typesetter, watch as the guy (or gal) looked at it while keying into the typesetting machine. The output was a long strip of paper, justified or centered or whatever, all the bolds and italics in place. If I noticed an error, the typesetter called up my file in his machine (which had a computer of sorts in it somewhere) and corrected the error, printing out a new strip of set type. I then gleefully went back to my studio and cut it to shreds, glued it down and ... well that's another story.

THEN:
The desktop computer was invented. I was there. I had one of the first. Not long after that, desktop publishing arrived.
What happened to the typesetter I used to go to?
He's still there, older now, but still "setting" type.
BUT:
He uses a desktop computer, a software program that any of us could purchase, if we are so inclined (I was; I have an old version), and he does look at hard copy but he really would rather not.
His preference currently? "Gimme a file, babe." He prefers .rtf, since it's more or less universal, but accepts .txt, .doc, .wp ... pretty much any kind of digital file on either the MAC or WIN platform. Why? Because he doesn't have to work as hard with them; all he really needs to do is select the font and size. He also charges less for setting type from a file than from keying it in again . . . and makes fewer errors, too. In fact, the only reason I go to him to get type set anymore is because he can prepare negatives ready for press. He likes the situation; he'd rather be snowmobiling anyway.

So, what's my point? akaEraser asked, "How come we can't just make the italics or bolds or whatever to begin with?" My friend the typesetter is a small outfit; has only a few hundred clients. Uncle Jim, seriously, do the big guys still set type for whole novels by reading 8 1/2" x 11" typed copy? Especially when it's so much easier, quicker, and more error free to do it from a file. I betcha that 95% of us writers prepare our manuscripts using a word processor on a computer.

Surely, modern publishers utilize the most current and efficient technology. Don't they?

WordSoup

03-17-2004, 07:42 PM

Pthom, you described three (possibly more) generations of typesetters. Nice history! The desktop publishing is my generation..(my Mom type out the long strip of paper)..I guess I have to learn some new tricks. At this point, though, I just need a job. If I walked in and they had an opening in the bindery to run the saddle stitcher, I'd be grateful. Does your typesetter friend need any help? :lol

OK, back to Outlines....

- Jen

maestrowork

03-17-2004, 07:46 PM

Follow Hemingway instead. He rarely used adverbs in his dialogue tags. Really. Certainly. Absolutely. :ack

maestrowork

03-17-2004, 07:52 PM

It's not about typesetting sometimes. Remember editors read hundreds of manuscripts and it is simply easier for them to read something that has fixed-width font, 12pt, double-spaced, etc. etc. Bold and Italics are hard to make out sometimes with courier font so underline is still used to emphasize. There's absolutely nothing wrong with preparing a manuscript with Times Roman with bolds and italics, but you're just distracting the editors.

Prometheus76

03-17-2004, 09:32 PM

Why should I choose to follow Hemingway's style instead of Joyce's? What is it about adverbs in dialogue attribution that is so bad according to modern methods? It used to be just fine. What changed? Who decided it's bad, and why? I like to understand the principles behind dogma. Thanks in advance.

Stephenie Hovland

03-17-2004, 10:49 PM

Pro,
It goes against the advice "show, don't tell." I'm working on a short story now and just came across a part where I could've said "Why?" Erik asked angrily. Instead, I wrote "Why?"
From the placement of the dialog, it was clearly Erik talking. By his actions (cursing and kicking a rock, and other actions mentioned later in the story) it's clear that he is angry. I didn't need to tell the reader, because I am showing it.
Also, seeing lots of -ly words on dialog tags gets old for this reader. It seems like lazy writing to me.
Stephenie

(who is a rather lazy writer herself.)

p.s. My spellchecker says it's dialog not dialogue. I've always spelled it the second way. Which one is correct?

evanaharris

03-17-2004, 11:02 PM

Because adverbs encourage laziness. They are of the devil. Don't sell your soul to adverbs!

Sure, Joyce did it, but did it work, in your opinion? That's all that matters. Does it work?

ChunkyC

03-17-2004, 11:36 PM

My spellchecker says it's dialog not dialogue. I've always spelled it the second way. Which one is correct?

I have two books on the subject and they both spell it 'dialogue'.

'Dialogue' by Lewis Turco
'Writing Dialogue' by Tom Chiarella (the better of the two, IMHO)

Spell checkers in software using their US dictionary generally drop the 'ue' from words like dialogue, prologue, epilogue, etc. Uncle Jim might be able to verify that the 'ue' spelling of such words is preferred in the writing industry, another reason not to completely trust your computer's spell checker.

PixelFish

03-18-2004, 12:32 AM

I see adverbs like cilantro. (Or maybe curry. Pick your favourite spice.) I have only barely taken up cooking and the one time I cooked a full meal for friends, I used cilantro. Sparingly. Cilantro won't taste great with everything, and if you use too much, it overpowers the other tastes, and it makes your fingers and mouth and everything taste like cilantro for a few hours afterwards, unless you scrub your hands and brush your teeth.

The smell clings.

So...while I will use adverbs, I've been trying to crop them except where the flow and sound of the words really seems to demand it AND when it aids understanding of the story.

I guess Jim will say, as he always does, "Does it work?" Otherwise, the advice proffered by Stephanie--showing, and not telling, and letting the dialogue speak for itself-- seems quite sound.

DBellamak

03-18-2004, 12:46 AM

Hello everyone,

Stephenie, that was one of the clearest show-don't-tell examples I've seen in a long time. Thanks for sharing it.

Hi, Jim. Thank you for the time and effort you've devoted here.

My boyfriend brought your thread to my attention via boing-boing. It took a couple weeks to catch up to the current posts, but here I am and yes, I've ordered my copy of Logical Chess: Move by Move.

As I read the posts here, I applied the rules mentioned to the Harry Potter series (book 1). It seems J.K. Rowling breaks every rule and convention I see supported here. And yet--to me--her books work.

I like exploration and I like to trail-blaze. However, with writing, I sometimes get hung up and insecure about the rules. I write myself into a corner I can't escape. My characters become prisoners of that insecurity. They start to look one-dimensional, chained to convention (and hate me), and before I know it, a good story goes bad.

In your writing process, when and where is it okay to break the rules? Are they rigid (letter of the law), or flexible (spirit of the law)? Are they reserved for novices only? Or are they intended to set industry-wide standards?

Have a wonderful day,

Diann

maestrowork

03-18-2004, 01:14 AM

I think the "chess" analogy is an excellent one. I do believe that a "character-driven" story is better than a purely plot-driven one. By "character-driven" I don't mean a Jane Austen period drama or THE HOURS. I mean the plot is driven by the characters' motives, desires, conflicts, etc. instead of the author shoehorning the characters in a plot "twist" that does not make any sense. Beside, I think writing a story like that (more organically) is a lot of fun.

Speaking of POV, I think it's one of things (beside dialogues and character development) that even seasoned writers struggle with sometimes. I personally find the 3rd person omniscent intrusive and annoying, unless it's done extremely well.

Also about "somehow." I agree with James about the narrator should be precise: "somehow the door is kept open" vs. "a dead mouse on the floor prevents the door from shutting." One exception in the case of an "unreliable" narrator and the story is told in first person POV. In that case, I think the narrator (author) has more freedom to be "unsure" either about the situation or a feeling -- more so the latter. It makes it a more vivid story if the narrator can describe details about things around him and events, but remain "clueless" if you will about his/her feelings:

"Somehow I think Jane still loves me."

maestrowork

03-18-2004, 01:21 AM

Once you know the rules, you can break them. But not before. I break rules all the time, but not everywhere in the manuscript. I use sentence fragmentation to quicken the pace or to punctuate the narrative. I open sentences with conjunctions because they feel more natural, so does "ending with a proposition." So on and so forth. It makes my prose more interesting and more stylish -- and it sounds better.

There are rules that shouldn't be broken though, ex:

"Knowing the risk of getting lost, crumbs were left on the road."

What is wrong with that sentence? I'll let you tell me.

ChunkyC

03-18-2004, 02:19 AM

"Knowing the risk of getting lost, crumbs were left on the road."

What is wrong with that sentence? I'll let you tell me.

Sounds like the crumbs themselves were aware of the risk. A common error in sentence structure that newer writers are prone to make. Also easy to fix:

"Knowing the risk of getting lost, he left crumbs on the road."

Still not an eloquent sentence, but the meaning is now clear. I don't know if this is an example of a 'rule', however. There is nothing grammatically wrong with the first sentence, it's just confusing.

DBellamak

03-18-2004, 03:37 AM

"Knowing the risk of getting lost, crumbs were left on the road."

What is wrong with that sentence? I'll let you tell me.

Howdy Maestro,

Well, I'll give it a shot.

It's passive voice, awkward and lacks detail. Who risked getting lost? A single person? A group? Who left crumbs?

I'm sure I've abused every rule in Elements of Style at least a dozen times (if not a gazillion). In the beginning, I did so out of ignorance. Now, as I work more toward crafting and less at just writing, I break them by choice. If doing so doesn't work out, it gets red-lined.

By your reply, it sounds as if you follow the spirit of the law. But what about rules outside of grammar? What about tone, or theme, your target audience or chosen genre? Do you treat them the same way?

Thanks,

Diann

Prometheus76

03-18-2004, 04:03 AM

Wow, thanks to all for responding with such cogent suggestions/examples/advice. I wasn't necessarily arguing for adverbial dialog (That's the U.S. spelling for you. I don't know why "dialogue" came out of my fingers, but Canadians and Britons didn't notice.) I was just trying to understand the "why" behind the rule. In thinking about Mrs. Rowling's audience, her extensive use of adverbial dialog attribution probably works better for her younger audience because a lot of them haven't really established that "reader's voice" in their head yet, so she uses those clues for younger readers. On the other hand, I understand and prefer pristine and whittled-down prose. "Hills Like White Elephants" by Ernest Hemingway is my favorite short story. A remarkable example of the Zen approach to writing.

Write on, fellow writers! Thank you for the overwhelming response to my high-school-debate postulation of a straw witch. I've definitely learned a lot from reading this board. Thanks again, Jim!

Yeshanu

03-18-2004, 05:53 AM

I've just spent the last few days cleaning up a few things on the first draft of my novel, which was written some time ago, and here are two things I noticed:

1) Too many adverbs make my work sound amaturish, as if I didn't really know what I want to say. Joyce may have succeeded in spite of them, but I'm not Joyce so I'll take them out of the next draft.

2) Americans seem to have this problem with the letter "u". I ran the whole novel through a spell-check, because the original word-processing programme I used did not have a spell-checker, and almost every "mistake" was either a name or a word like colour, honour, armour, or humour. As for dialogue and prologue, that's the way they are spelled in my (American) Funk and Wagnall's dictionary, but down at the bottom of the entry it says, in small type, "also dialog" or "prolog." So both are correct, although I think the "gue" ending is more common. Not that it matters. I don't think the word "dialogue" occurs in my novel at all, and in accordance with the advice earlier in this thread, I took the word "prologue" out and replaced it with "Chapter One." ;)

Ruth

maestrowork

03-18-2004, 07:11 AM

(pardon my late participation... I just recently found this site! Great stuff)

Themes should work at the subconscious level. When I write I have strong themes in my head. In fact most people do, they just don't consciously know about them. That's great because the readers shouldn't have to be "preached" about the themes. Themes takes many forms:

- love (parental, romantic, friendship, etc.)
- hate (revenge, evil, etc.)
- redemption
- salvation
- knowledge/experience (coming of age)
- grieve/loss
- greed, lust, etc. (seven deadly sins)

If you think hard on the books you've read or the ones you've written, you would be able to pick out some of the overriding themes.

maestrowork

03-18-2004, 07:29 AM

You do have to adjust to the themes, tones, styles and genre you're writing. Obviously if you're writing romance you wouldn't write it like you would a mystery and vice versa.

For contemporary story I use a more casual style. A bit punchier. When I write something more literary, I use more long, complex sentences with metaphors, etc. (but no purple prose, please). Comedic writing and dramatic writing are different, too. So on and so forth.

James D Macdonald

03-18-2004, 07:33 AM

Here's a good line from that page of <A HREF="http://www.ex.ac.uk/~dregis/DR/quotes.html" target="_new">chess quotes</a> I gave earlier:

<blockquote>
<hr>

"If you have any doubt what to study, study endgames. Openings teach you openings. Endings teach you chess."

-- Stephan GERZADOWICZ, Thinker's Chess.

<hr>
</blockquote>

So.... let's think about that in writing terms. How many times have I heard "XXX started off well, but it fell apart at the end"? Lots of times, and lots of those times were when discussing why books got rejected.

We spend an awful lot of time talking about openings: opening lines, first pages, first chapters. Not to say those aren't important; if the first page doesn't invite the reader to turn the page that reader will never come to your ending. But ... you'll be able to mess with the opening in your second and third drafts. When you start your novel you may not have a clue what the real opening of the book is; even if you think you do, you may be wrong, and may find this out when you've finished your draft and read it through.

The climax is what pays off the reader for going with you. The climax is what entices the reader to buy and read your next book. (The reader will buy and read your next book, even if the opening of that book is slow, because of the promise of a strong ending.)

<Blockquote>
<HR>

"In order to improve your game, you must study the endgame before everything else...."

-- Jose Raul Capablanca, World Champion 1921-1927

<hr>
</blockquote>

The climaxes of novels, however, are difficult to study compared with the openings. The opening exists as a unity, it comes from a blank page, it's creating itself as it goes. The ending, of necessity, grows from the middle and the beginning of the novel. Where we can look at an opening chapter in isolation, it's difficult to look at the final chapter without having the rest of the story in mind. Take, for example, the classic last line from <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/0451524934/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">1984</a>: "He loved Big Brother."

As part of the whole, that's chilling; the epitome of horror. Taken without the rest of the book, it's meaningless.

The last three chapters of <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/0553213113/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Moby-Dick</a> are the novel. All that came before was necessary to allow the reader to understand those three chapters.

<BLOCKQUOTE>
<HR>

"Modern chess is too much concerned with things like pawn structure. Forget it - checkmate ends the game"

-- Nigel SHORT

<HR>
</blockquote>

But, again, you may ask, what is the climax?

(Homework: Read a bunch of novels in many genres from literary to best-seller. Identify the climax. Go and do, in your own work, what the masters have done in theirs.)

Here is the one big secret of climaxes, from which all others spring: The reader must be in no doubt that this is the climax.

I said, earlier, that there's only one ending to the novel: The good guys win. I quoted, just a bit above, the last line of 1984. Did the good guys win?

I say yes: and I also say this: you must define, in the course of your narrative, who the good guys are, and what "winning" means. You cannot assume common views in today's society; you have to establish those views in terms of your fiction.

The book that does not so much end as stop, that appears to run out of steam, or where the author got to a certain page count and wrote "The End," those are not good climaxes.

For most writers at most times, "It was only a dream" and "Then they were all run over by a truck" are not going to be satisfying climaxes. (Unless you can make it work, of course. <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/0812504186/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Alice's Adventures in Wonderland</a> is an example of the first, <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0449213943/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">All Quiet on the Western Front</a> is an example of the latter.)

maestrowork

03-18-2004, 07:35 AM

I agree with you on Rowling's generous use of adverbs. I think her target audience is young enough that she needs to be very simple and straightforward. Some writers call her lazy, but perhaps she does it for a purpose. I myself definitely prefer Hemingway's style to Joyce's. Sometimes it comes down to preferences. Some readers don't want to think... rather, they'd like the author to "tell" them. I had a beta reader before who criticized me for leaving some things out because she didn't get it -- she wanted the narrator to tell her if the protagonist was indifferent or angry, meanwhile he was "pounding his fists on the window."

But then again, how much can we expect from the readers? Should we all shoot for the lowest common denominator?

James D Macdonald

03-18-2004, 07:42 AM

I had a beta reader before who criticized me for leaving some things out because she didn't get it -- she wanted the narrator to tell her if the protagonist was indifferent or angry, meanwhile he was "pounding his fists on the window."

If a reader tells you that there's something wrong, he's almost certainly right. If he tells you what's wrong, he's almost certainly wrong.

HapiSofi

03-18-2004, 07:46 AM

Uncle Jim, I have a problem. Let us consider it in terms of the movie GalaxyQuest.

Technically, I know the climax is supposed to be where the ship comes plowing in through the atmosphere, smashes one wall of the convention center, and delivers our heroes safely home again -- after the false ending with the main bad guy, that is. I mean, if anything in cinema is a climax, that is.

Problem is, my heart keeps telling me the climax of the movie is the delivery of the line, "I knew it!"

What's going on? Which is it?

James D Macdonald

03-18-2004, 07:50 AM

Which is it?

At which of those points did the audience spontaneously burst into applause?

That is the climax.

maestrowork

03-18-2004, 08:00 AM

I have a question about prologue vs. chapter 1. In Dan Brown's books, he uses prologues to begin his story, really, by describing a murder that involves two characters: the victim and the assassin. One can argue that it should have been the first chapter (authors like Patterson would open his book with a murder like that). However, if you cut out the prologue you really don't miss much. So the prologue only serves as a "teaser" -- something to hold the reader's interest.

In my novel, I have a very short prologue which is news about an accident. Then the real story happens in Chapter 1 when the protagonist is oblvious (but the readers, having read the prologue, would know that his parents just died). In this sense, the prologue is very important to "set up" the story but it's not quite the beginning of the story. Well, one can argue about that and make the news the first chapter.

Yes, no, doesn't matter?

maestrowork

03-18-2004, 08:10 AM

It's funny. She didn't say "something is missing" but "you did not put in such and such." So it seems like she does get it, but she wants some explanations to go with it.

Example: I have the protagonist picks up the phone. And then in the next chapter/scene I have him at the funeral. In movie terms, that's a "jump cut" (not sure if it's applicable in novels). But my beta reader asks me: "What was the conversation? Who called? What was his reaction when he heard about his parents' death? How did he get back? By air? By train?) The fact is, all that is answered LATER in chapter 2 as narrative. Not sure what to think.

DBellamak

03-18-2004, 08:30 AM

I agree with you on Rowling's generous use of adverbs. I think her target audience is young enough that she needs to be very simple and straightforward.

I would say that this is valid, logical reasoning ... except that I've looked through works ranging from Stephen King, to Ray Bradbury, Anne Rice, Clive Barker, Robert Heinlein, Anton Chekhov and more. They all break the rules to some degree, and some of them, in my opinion, extensively.

Rowling's books target a young audience, but they've also proven their mass appeal. Straightforward, yes. Simple, I'd argue.

James D Macdonald

03-18-2004, 08:42 AM

Not sure what to think.

What I think is that this is one of the ills of workshopping: The cheapest, easiest crit to give is "I wanted to hear more about XXX." This comes from looking at books piecemeal rather than as organic wholes.

jerir12

03-18-2004, 08:48 AM

In the 2nd novel I'm writing there is a Prologue. It takes place in a Spanish desert village in 1799 and shows how a ring becomes possessed with a vampires spirit. Chapter one takes place in present day San Francisco and shows how a teenage girl is killed by a vampire.

I said all that since someone was talking about Prologues. I'm aware that what happens in my prologue could have be interweaved into the novel's story, but I felt the prologue was necessary.

Jim, do you think it would be better for me to just interweave
the prologue in the novel's story or leave as is?

jerir12

reph

03-18-2004, 09:06 AM

Dialog or dialogue? For all questions about spelling, consult a dictionary. For that word, either spelling is correct, but the longer one is preferred.

qatz

03-18-2004, 10:07 AM

above made a very valid point about the american proclivity for dispensing with "u"s ... whether or not it's in favour, i think the english spelling should be considered correct on these shores. nevertheless, i do prefer "prolog" ... just as a personal preference.

James D Macdonald

03-18-2004, 10:17 AM

Jim, do you think it would be better for me to just interweave the prologue in the novel's story or leave as is?

I haven't read your book, so my opinion is based on general principles rather than specific cases.

That being said: If you leave it as a prologue, half your readers won't read it.

That being said, I've used prologues in my own works about half the time.

We've been talking about rules? There are no rules. There are only guidelines, some of them stronger than others.

While most people are having great fun skiing down the slope on skis, every once in a while you'll see someone gliding up the slope on an ironing board and making it look easy.

"It works" trumps everything.

qatz

03-18-2004, 10:21 AM

i said somewhere, and i hope my partner repeats my advice when she gets around to addressing this subject, that the one utterly true verity of writing (other than myriads pointed out by Uncle Jim) is that endings are always harder to write than beginnings. this explains a lot. it explains why the greatest american novel is 80% preliminary. it explains the inordinate value we place, and rightly so, on how a novel turns out. i have to disagree with U. Jim, however, in one particular. the good guys did not win in "1984." that is precisely the point of the novel; it posits a real time when the good guys might not win. thus, its horror. its message might be the contrary, but only because that is the power and the glory of an incredibly strong ending.

jerir12

03-18-2004, 11:57 AM

Thanks for your comments Jim.

jerir12

maestrowork

03-18-2004, 12:50 PM

I find endings easy to write -- most often I already have the endgame set up. The beginning is somewhat harder, not knowing exactly which point of "interest" to begin sometimes and end up doing some character development instead of bringing the readers into the plot (and setting up that "dream state" of theirs). Mid story is a long, weird process. I usually build my characters first and have some key "set pieces" set up and let them get to the points.. it's a challenging process but also rewarding when it works.

I wrote an epilogue but later discarded it. I think epilogues are dumb and most authors still misuse it as the conclusion of the story; instead, it just means the author couldn't let go or it should have been the last chapter of the book.

MacAl Stone

03-18-2004, 01:45 PM

The celtic knotwork outline suddenly brings everything I've been struggling with into sharp focus.

I have a notebook full of different character/theme/storyline threads, so that I can make sure I follow each to its rightful conclusion.

I've been battling away with the unruly bits--each character proclaiming that this is THEIR story, dammit; each event clamoring to be THE pivotal piece of the puzzle--unsure of how to balance and interweave them into a harmonious whole. I felt terribly virtuous struggling away with stuffing them into various roman-numeral slots. Nevermind how poorly that worked.

Then Jim dropped the solution in my lap. The farkin' book exists in my head as a big, convoluted, three-dimensional pattern.

This helps immeasurably. I can stop reworking the entire freaking outline whenever the story runs away with me. The first 70-80 pages can be massaged into their respective knots on rewrite. Right now I'm afraid to look back at them, mostly because they ain't nearly as pretty as I wanted them to be, and I know it.

Thank you, Jim.

Mac

maestrowork

03-18-2004, 01:57 PM

I use the "hero's journey" as a guide for my outline sometimes (if it fits the story arc), and that has worked very well for me.

I also use a visual method by drawing charts and diagrams -- I tend to use few words in my outlines, mostly just pictures. I plot out the different points in the story in terms of conflicts and release, forming a big squiggly curve which crescendoes to a "climax" then a final resolution (conclusion). Each high points on the curve is a specific conflict/problem (either internal or external) and each valley is a "resolve." And now on this curve I can mark up the "hero's journey" milestones as well as all the major set pieces.

This evolving exercise helps me:

- clear my mind and focus
- think out all the key plots and subplots
- visualize the "game" and its structure
- know where I am at in the process and where I am going

jeffspock

03-18-2004, 06:03 PM

Dear Jim,

The grammar checking function in Microsoft Word consistently indicates an error when "then" is used without "and" to start a dependent clause.

Could you kindly send a note to Mr. Gates and request that he leave writing to the professionals? His attitude is really starting to bug me.

Jeff

James D Macdonald

03-18-2004, 09:39 PM

Thanks for your comments Jim.

jerir12

Actually, Jeri, I didn't answer your question.

Knowing only what I know from what you've posted here:

One concern I have is whether the prologue gives away too much of the story.

The prologue (literally "before the word") has been used, mostly in drama, to explain what's coming, and at the same time give people time to get back from the candy counter, find their seats, sit down, and shut up.

You find prologues in movies and TV shows: those segments of action before the opening titles. These can be badly done: the voiceover in <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0780622553/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Dark City</a> is an example.

They can be well done. The opening narration in <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003CWT6/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">The Fellowship of the Ring</a> (material that Tolkien wisely put in the Council of Elrond chapter, nearly half-way through the first volume, after the readers were engaged and cared about the information) is an example of a sucessful prologue.

Let's look at a couple of other prologues:

From <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6305364613/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/" target="_new">Romeo And Juliet</a> by William Shakespeare:

<blockquote>
<hr>

Two households, both alike in dignity,
In fair Verona, where we lay our scene,
From ancient grudge break to new mutiny,
Where civil blood makes civil hands unclean.
From forth the fatal loins of these two foes
A pair of star-cross'd lovers take their life;
Whole misadventured piteous overthrows
Do with their death bury their parents' strife.
The fearful passage of their death-mark'd love,
the continuance of their parents' rage,
Which, but their children's end, nought could remove,
Is now the two hours' traffic of our stage;
The which if you with patient ears attend,
What here shall miss, our toil shall strive to mend.

<hr>
</blockquote>

Now from <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00018D3PU/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Dr. Faustus</a> by Christopher Marlowe:

<BLOCKQUOTE>
<HR>

Not marching in the fields of Trasimene
Where Mars did mate the warlike Carthagens,
Nor sporting in the dalliance of love
In Courts of Kings where state is overturned,
Nor in the pomp of proud audacious deeds
Intends our Muse to vaunt his heavenly verse.
Only this, Gentles: we must now perform
The form of Faustus' fortunes, good or bad.
And now to patient judgments we appeal,
And speak for Faustus in his infancy.
Now is he born, of parents base of stock,
In Germany, within a Town called Rhodes.
At riper years to Wittenberg he went,
Whereas his kinsmen chiefly brought him up.
So much he profits in Divinity,
The fruitful plot of Scholarism graced,
That shortly he was graced with Doctor's name,
Excelling all, and sweetly can dispute
In th' heavenly matters of Theology,
Till swoll'n with cunning of a self-conceit,
His waxen wings did mount above his reach,
And melting, heavens conspired his overthrow;
For, falling to a devilish exercise
And glutted now with learning's golden gifts,
He surfeits upon cursed Necromancy.
Nothing so sweet as Magic is to him,
Which he prefers before his chiefest bliss;
And this the man that in his study sits.

<HR>
</blockquote>

Notice several things: First, that they are dispensable, second, that they are brief, and third, that they are self-contained.

So .... Jerir ... tell me about your prologue? Is it dispensable, brief, and self-contained? If it is, then make it a prologue indeed. If not, try it as chapter one, with a particularly long time interval between chapters one and two. See how that reads.

If the rest of the story-telling is strong enough, you'll have an editor who has read your work to comment on the appropriateness of your prologue. If the rest of the writing isn't strong enough, it won't matter.

And... please yourself. Pleasing yourself is a big part of the art of writing.